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Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: dedication] #183813
05/26/17 02:01 PM
05/26/17 02:01 PM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Sometimes, God just seems so far away. Its a fact that many of us tend to resist, as if, somehow, experiencing this is a display of "fear" "inadequacy," "anger" "doubt" and many other such things. Guilt and grief can assault us all through events beyond our control. But how does God get so far away during our troubling times? Why do Christians struggle so with feelings of distance and isolation from God? Is God really ready to bring meaning, and hope to our deepest hurts and our least understood emotions? Do the clouds of our experience block out the Light of His presence? Isn't it true, that God sometimes, quite simply, "fails" us? - The Wanderer
That is a question we all need to seriously consider. We've probably all been there at some point or other, and the question "why?" Why do we feel distance from God at a time we need Him most.

I've asked myself, if I feel so "alone" in these "small trial" which seem so huge, how will I cling to my Savior when the time of trouble comes? If I lose my grip on His strength and love, now, how will I hold fast to Him in the great time of trouble?

Those trials may be wake-up calls to alert us that when things are pretty good, we tend to walk in our own strength and neglect building that close relationship of trust in our Savior.
Then, I know people He has been "waking up" for 20 years Isnt that called torture?


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: The Wanderer] #183816
05/26/17 02:52 PM
05/26/17 02:52 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Thank you Alchemy for your direct answer. So you agree with dedication which is basically our Church position.

dedication is very dedicated to the Church's teachings. That's ok. But as we grow older and get off the babies milk...we need to be able to fend for our [spiritual]food from the Holy Spirit personal teachings while we test from scriptures for ourselves if what we were taught in the Church still stand on His Word. From my experience...it's not always so.

Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: Elle

the wanderer & nadi, do you agree with dedication's points?
"If the clouds are full of rain, they empty themselves on the earth, and if a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where the tree falls, there it will lie." He who observes the wind will not sow, and he who regards the clouds will not reap." (Eccl 11:3-4, ESV)

The wanderer, please be direct. Do you agree with dedication 2 points highlighted and supersized below. Yes or no? And explain your answer hopefully backed with a scriptural foundation would be great.

Here are the questions for you (and Nadi) conveniences.
Originally Posted By: Elle
See if I understand your points, dedication!

First, dedication's point : Jesus never fails and He supplies us all that we need. [my summary taken from dedication 1st post]

Originally Posted By: dedication
Jesus never fails.....
But God has promised strength for the day,
Rest for the labor, light for the way,
Grace for the trials, help from above,
Unfailing sympathy, undying love.


So dedication, if we fail... well it's not Jesus failure.... for He gave us all that we needed to succeed. Am I understanding your point?

Second dedication's point: these "clouds" is to build in us the same "faith of Jesus".
Originally Posted By: dedication
The answer I have found is that these small trials are allowed to come to draw us closer to totally dependence upon Christ -- not push us away. He gives the strength to get through, His love supports us, we need to build that trust.

That is the "faith of Jesus" spoken of in Revelation.
Jesus, in His humanity, completed trusted in the Father. And when upon the cross feeling excruciating pain, falsely accused, terribly mistreated, feeling an enormous burden of guilt crushing Him (not His own but bearing ours), feeling deserted by God the Father, yet His faith clung to God, His faith in God and that all things will work out for good to them that trust in Him carried Him through!

The faith of Jesus --
"Here is the endurance of the saints who keep God's commandments and have the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12

So are you implying that if we don't make it....well the failure is all ours for we didn't have the "faith of Jesus"?

the wanderer & nadi, do you agree with dedication's points?


Blessings
Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: Elle] #183818
05/26/17 04:53 PM
05/26/17 04:53 PM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: Elle

The wanderer, please be direct.

the wanderer & nadi, do you agree with dedication's points?
Who is God? Why don’t I feel His presence? Where was God when I needed Him? When does the "joy” come? (Psalms 30:5)
Even those who say they have a good, close, personal relationship with God experience times when The Lord seems distant, and unresponsive. When the clouds of experience block the sight of His presence and Light; with all the enemies like clouds of locusts swarming around us in our church, and the spiritual walk disappearing, where is God?

I do not believe that this text I quoted is “being indirect.”

If the clouds are full of rain, they empty themselves on the earth, and if a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where the tree falls, there it will lie.
He who observes the wind will not sow, and he who regards the clouds will not reap." (Eccl 11:3-4, ESV)

Last edited by The Wanderer; 05/26/17 04:55 PM.

"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: The Wanderer] #183820
05/26/17 05:49 PM
05/26/17 05:49 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
???

Maybe I wasn't clear.

Here are the questions that I'm re-re-posted for you, the Wanderer, and for Nadi's conveniences. I would like to hear if you agree with dedications position or not. tx.

Originally Posted By: Elle
See if I understand your points, dedication!

First, dedication's point : Jesus never fails and He supplies us all that we need. [my summary taken from dedication 1st post]

Originally Posted By: dedication
Jesus never fails.....
But God has promised strength for the day,
Rest for the labor, light for the way,
Grace for the trials, help from above,
Unfailing sympathy, undying love.


So dedication, if we fail... well it's not Jesus failure.... for He gave us all that we needed to succeed. Am I understanding your point?

Second dedication's point: these "clouds" is to build in us the same "faith of Jesus".
Originally Posted By: dedication
The answer I have found is that these small trials are allowed to come to draw us closer to totally dependence upon Christ -- not push us away. He gives the strength to get through, His love supports us, we need to build that trust.

That is the "faith of Jesus" spoken of in Revelation.
Jesus, in His humanity, completed trusted in the Father. And when upon the cross feeling excruciating pain, falsely accused, terribly mistreated, feeling an enormous burden of guilt crushing Him (not His own but bearing ours), feeling deserted by God the Father, yet His faith clung to God, His faith in God and that all things will work out for good to them that trust in Him carried Him through!

The faith of Jesus --
"Here is the endurance of the saints who keep God's commandments and have the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12

So are you implying that if we don't make it....well the failure is all ours for we didn't have the "faith of Jesus"?

the wanderer & nadi, do you agree with dedication's points?


Blessings
Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: Elle] #183822
05/26/17 06:06 PM
05/26/17 06:06 PM
N
Nadi  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2020
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
Originally Posted By: Elle
the wanderer & nadi, do you agree with dedication's points?


First, dedication and I view the world from diametrically opposed points of view. I want empirical Scriptural evidence on which to base my beliefs and faith. I am an exegete, she is an eisegete.


As such, I rarely find her points to be supported by anything other than standard SDA/"SOP" rhetoric and her opinion.

sorry Please forgive me. This is not intended to be an attack on dedication.

Her methods work for her. But if she wants to convince ME, she'll have to use something else.

Second,...God never fails?
So...I read Psalm 91, then my house is destroyed and I loose everything. (aka Fort McMurray) This would qualify for a major disaster in my life. Does God not protect from this, LIKE HE SAID? Or perhaps HIS words don't mean what WE think they mean. (aka the little discussion regarding "soon.")

Oh, but in the end he'll save you and it'll all be OK.
Really? And in the meantime I have to watch my family suffer some horrible disaster, precisely what I DON'T WANT TO HAPPEN. But don't sweat it; God'll make it all work out.

Or: "You're not perfect. You indulge sin in your life."
So God will protect us if we are perfect, which we can't be, so...He's off the hook for protecting us??

Need I go on? These are just nutshells of the issue.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: Nadi] #183823
05/26/17 07:28 PM
05/26/17 07:28 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Nadi
Originally Posted By: Elle
the wanderer & nadi, do you agree with dedication's points?

Second,...God never fails?
So...I read Psalm 91, then my house is destroyed and I loose everything. (aka Fort McMurray) This would qualify for a major disaster in my life.

I'm sorry Nadi for the calamity you are currently going thru. If it's any source of comfort...you are not alone. I have a long list on my own and I'm sure there's many other here with their own. I do not believe these calamities has to do with you personally or anything to do with your lack of. There might be some small play in it; but overall it is the Lord that is Sovereign and His plan is moving forward PERFECTLY. We may not see the PERFECT plan right now...but we will come to behold it and when we do...I believe we will all rejoice in it -- because I repeat God is not a failure and will not fail any one of us (believers or non-believers).

Like I said in my first post(or was it the other discussion about Carson's opinion of the poor-- he thinks it is their fault if they are poor.). Currently, the Lord put the whole world under the ruling of the last Beastly Empire, called Mystery Babylon. And I'm afraid that the people will suffer some more calamities stemming from the judgment of Mystery Babylon.
Originally Posted By: Nadi
Does God not protect from this, LIKE HE SAID?

Well maybe He will, maybe not the way you had foresaw it. It's not over yet right?

Originally Posted By: Nadi
Or perhaps HIS words don't mean what WE think they mean. (aka the little discussion regarding "soon.")

I agree.....there's plenty of "HIS words don't mean what WE think they mean" going around on this forum and the world.

May I add another reason to yours? There's also a lot of texts in scripture that we simply want to IGNORE.... because it simply doesn't agree with our interpretation. So many of us we pay attention to "some" words that proceeded from the mouth of God... but NOT ALL of His Words.

An example : Is 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]." The Hebrew word for "evil" is ra' by which also means calamities. The laws of tribulations further described the "calamities" (evils) that God will inflict on us(corporate nation or individual) in Lev 26 and Deut 28. This is in line with IS 45:7 where we find that it is the Lord that brings on(or "create") the calamities(==evil) unto his Church or other nations via His judgments....It is not Satan. Satan's job is to be an adversary and accuse the brothers. We need to be able to understand and make the proper distinction between the two.

So when God judge the nation of Israel with the Assyrian destruction & captivity and the nation of Judah with the Babylonian destruction & captivity.... the people underwent destruction of their homes, land, most killed, and some taken as captives. These people weren't all "bad". Jeremiah talked that there two groups or two fig trees : some people were "good figs" that stem from a good tree while there were some "evil figs" that stem from an evil tree. So the "good" people (like Daniel and his buddies) suffered the calamities resulting from the judgment of their "evil" nations (as a whole) despite that some individuals weren't guilty of the evil sins of their leaders (from past generations) that were mainly responsible for bringing on these calamities on their nation. Nevertheless, God sent prophets years ahead including Jeremiah to teach them of the coming destruction of Jerusalem and captivity. Jeremiah told them to "submit" to Babylon for Nebuchednezzar was God's servant to bring upon God's judgment on them. What strange language it must of been for many people who didn't study the law in those days. Those that were expose to Lev 26 and Deut 28 in context with their 6 previous captivities brought by the Lord in the book of Judges....these people could recognize that Jeremiah's language was not foreign at all, but was the Lord's own words as expressed in His laws.

Signs were all around them, plus Jeremiah's message....despite he was not the popular voice in his time. Then, these prophets or the "good" people did not escape these calamities either. No matter, how "good" some individuals were in the nation....the House of Judah and the house of Israel both still underwent these calamities.

So we need to understand this type of level of judgment of God in our picture & our cases today also. But what is different with us today...is that we are at the end of this long captivity that lasted 7 times (7 x 360 years = 2520 years). I do not believe we will undergo the same experience as the Israelites or the House of Judah went. Because we stand at a different time in God's perfect plan.

So another thing we need to acknowledge is where we(or our nation) stand today in terms of fulfillment of prophecies. Prophecies on the upper level of fulfillment (nations vs. world vs. the establishment of God's Kingdom) will be fulfilled despite you or I being "good" or "bad" underneath.

We, SDAs (maybe not you Nadi) like to narrow our view down to something simple like blaming these "calamities" on Satan or/and blame it on the people (like Carson did with the poor)..... for this blaming game keeps our image that we've created of the Lord intact and pure.

That's why we need to ask the hard questions and see what scriptures says about these hard questions that often we prefer to plainly ignore. Or if cornered, we respond with non-sense cliche stuff that isn't balance nor entirely scriptural.

Originally Posted By: Nadi
Oh, but in the end he'll save you and it'll all be OK.
Really? And in the meantime I have to watch my family suffer some horrible disaster, precisely what I DON'T WANT TO HAPPEN. But don't sweat it; God'll make it all work out.

God will make it all work out in what way? Is this your belief or you are being sarcastic? I would like to focus on what you understand what scripture says about this. That's what I think we need to focus first.

Originally Posted By: Nadi
Or: "You're not perfect. You indulge sin in your life."
So God will protect us if we are perfect, which we can't be, so...He's off the hook for protecting us??

Need I go on? These are just nutshells of the issue.

I'm trying to follow and come to know what you understand.

Again...I don't expect anyone to have the perfect understanding. That's why we study together as a group....as the Lord may of reveal something to you or someone else here ...that I didn't see and vice versa.

I would appreciate if you try to state what you believe the Bible teaches us about this subject. I think that would be more productive as a discussion for all of us.


Blessings
Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: Elle] #183824
05/26/17 08:02 PM
05/26/17 08:02 PM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: Elle
???

Maybe I wasn't clear.

Here are the questions that I'm re-re-posted for you, the Wanderer, and for Nadi's conveniences. I would like to hear if you agree with dedications position or not. tx.

[quote=Elle]See if I understand your points, dedication!

First, dedication's point : Jesus never fails and He supplies us all that we need. [my summary taken from dedication 1st post]
I believe that dedication is on the right path; however, its just not true that Jesus never fails to supply us with all that we need. He is not here for me now, and I don't see Him no matter how well I behave and do all His rules. Its been one disaster after the next for more than five years, with each one getting worse. So, OK Good. he showed me who is bigger and stronger, but where is all this love He keeps talking about? It certainly isn't in any church or forum or anywhere else that I might look!! He has beat me into the ground and down to the bottom, and there is nothing left. Where is He?


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: The Wanderer] #183826
05/26/17 08:33 PM
05/26/17 08:33 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: Elle
???

Maybe I wasn't clear.

Here are the questions that I'm re-re-posted for you, the Wanderer, and for Nadi's conveniences. I would like to hear if you agree with dedications position or not. tx.

[quote=Elle]See if I understand your points, dedication!

First, dedication's point : Jesus never fails and He supplies us all that we need. [my summary taken from dedication 1st post]
I believe that dedication is on the right path; however, its just not true that Jesus never fails to supply us with all that we need. He is not here for me now, and I don't see Him no matter how well I behave and do all His rules. Its been one disaster after the next for more than five years, with each one getting worse. So, OK Good. he showed me who is bigger and stronger, but where is all this love He keeps talking about? It certainly isn't in any church or forum or anywhere else that I might look!! He has beat me into the ground and down to the bottom, and there is nothing left. Where is He?

Thank you for your honest reply. Yup! I can exactly relate to your experience. For me....it's been over 12 years(if not more) of failure one after the other...now Advance cancer(but I see little signs that it's healing)... a mental illness that I recently discovered that I was totally in the dark about and I don't know how to manage... tyroid glands out of control.....poverty....stress that overtook physically my back that the pain is just unreal just to pick up a piece of paper of the floor....etc... the list goes on and on. However, it brought me to my "death" (a 'spiritual' death....a breaking point). Too bad that discussion of death & resurrection got hi-jacked! But we can always get back to it.

However, I disagree with dedication's position. I will explain why with scriptures soon. Sooner than John's "soon" words in revelation. :+)


Blessings
Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: Elle] #183831
05/27/17 12:29 AM
05/27/17 12:29 AM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: Elle

Thank you for your honest reply. Yup! I can exactly relate to your experience. For me....it's been over 12 years(if not more) of failure one after the other...now Advance cancer(but I see little signs that it's healing)... a mental illness that I recently discovered that I was totally in the dark about and I don't know how to manage... tyroid glands out of control.....poverty....stress that overtook physically my back that the pain is just unreal just to pick up a piece of paper of the floor....etc... the list goes on and on. However, it brought me to my "death" (a 'spiritual' death....a breaking point). Too bad that discussion of death & resurrection got hi-jacked! But we can always get back to it.

However, I disagree with dedication's position. I will explain why with scriptures soon. Sooner than John's "soon" words in revelation. :+)
Thank you for sharing these personal details of trials and challenges. it certainly makes your posting on this subject much clearer. Iam looking after a loved one at home with terminal illness, and so this topic has meaning and depth to me, as well as for yourself, and many others. For now, I would like to comment that when people do express these kinds of doubts about God, as in the OP, I think it is wrong, in most instances, for people to "correct" the person who is expressing same. No one has any idea what another is going through in their trials, and it would be better to show some sympathy, and find out more whats going on first. I also think of Job, and how his friends talked to him, and even his wife.


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: The Wanderer] #183832
05/27/17 12:30 AM
05/27/17 12:30 AM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Quote:
If the clouds are full of rain, they empty themselves on the earth, and if a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where the tree falls, there it will lie.
He who observes the wind will not sow, and he who regards the clouds will not reap." (Eccl 11:3-4, ESV)
It would be good for people to reflect on why I might have posted this text in the OP smile


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
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