I think you all misread that.
Maybe the double negatives in some sentences confused you.

Where do you read that Jesus promises to give us an easy life, always keeping us supplied here on earth with earthly things?
For what I wrote says the very opposite.

It seems that the premise I'm reading here is that if we don't have an easy life then Jesus failed us?

Now, Jesus DOES give us many good things here on earth, but He never promised a life of easy, in fact He told us
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. John 16:33


Why do you think Jesus fails?
He promised "strength" to endure
He promised to be with us in the fire of affliction, he never promised a life with no affliction.

We are not in heaven, we are in a world where evil reigns. This world is not our home, we are just traveling through.
Things will get worse, not better in this old world.

And yes, we have all failed, everyone has failed, no question there.
All of us need to increase in faith, and trust in our Savior.
Don't mock the "faith of Jesus" --

His life was not easy, He was betrayed by close friends, He was falsely accused, He was tortured, God seemed far away, He was killed.
Dwell on what Jesus endured so you may have eternal life.
Read Peter's letter to those suffering persecution. He tells them not to think it some strange thing that they have to suffer.
Satan in full fury attacked Christ through his agents.
Satan will attack every follower of Christ.
His goal is to get you separated from Christ and into the swamp of despondency and doubt.


Christ's faith is our goal -- and God is leading us to attain it.

Can you trust him even when everything seems to be going wrong?

We are on the edge of final events.
We may all lose our homes, and worse than Fort Mac, even lose the supportive help that was given to them, and be cast out as refugees.
It is God's grace that is leading us through this wilderness called earth, preparing us for the heavenly home.
Yes, He will give us the strength to endure.
Fill the mind with His word, His love for you -- a love that made Him willing to take all your sins and failings and go to the cross so you can live with Him for ETERNITY, in heaven and later on earth made NEW, without any more affliction, pain, or disaster forever.

Jesus will not fail --

? You didn't quote Eccl 11 in the OP but Job 36:32.

Why don't you share what this text means to you since it is something you have "chewed your cud"(pondered) on it for awhile. For me, the Lord haven't brought me to this text in the past....so I have not chewed on it....so I really have nothing to say about it.

However I have "chewed" (pondered) on the book of Job several times and that's why I have responded to that text with my impression.

Now, we haven't really got down in identifying what the clouds meant or what they are and why God brought them in our life to hide the "illumination" in Job 36:32. Personally, I would like to finish with Job 36:32. And I'm wondering if Job 36:32 is related to Ecc 11:3-4? Maybe it is in some distance way... maybe it is directly related... maybe it is not. I don't know. I await for your impression of Ecc 11:3-4; but I ask that we do not loose track of Job 36:32.

In a public setting like this forum, I think it is not the place to share very personal stuff. There's ways to discuss without having to go there. We all should know that we all have our challenges and it's not a rose garden for anyone.

I felt my question to you and Nadi brought you both to reveal the personal stuff...when I was only seeking that we expressed our view if we agreed with dedication position or not. So I felt responsible that my question brought you to that. That's why I felt impressed to meet you both in your sufferings. But I really think it's not the place. So please forgive me for that.

There's a time to share personal stuff to the whole body ... especially when the Lord has opened up our understanding about them and He has given us a special "revelation". Then these "revelation" actually belong to the body and they should be informed what part of His Word the Lord has brought into your life and made you a "living word". I believe the Lord gives each one of us one of His Word that we come to live it and thus know it.

But if we are still in doubt...and having massive clouds still covering the "illumination".... I think it's wiser to wait upon the Lord for His personal revelation to us.

I do share my personal struggles with only my very close few friends in the Church. I think it can be ok because we are in close communications for years and we know each others past and struggles and beliefs. And you know about girls how they work things up by talking. It's not always a good thing; but it can help along the time we are in obscurity. Men should also have a few very close friends that they can openly share and troubleshoot their understanding with them. I know that's not the case with many, like it is with woman.

But above having some close friends to open up to; I have always benefited the most from opening scriptures to find answers there. That's something we all can do together on this forum.

Yes, we agree thus far.... but you haven't answered my reply to you stating a summary of all that your shared (above is only part) and asking for clarification if this is your position. Here an shorten re-posted of the two questions to you for your convenience.

Jesus never fails. You can put your full and complete trust in Him no matter what happens in this life on a planet where sin ruins and life is uncertain.

And if you think that is only my opinion and not biblical then I feel very sorry for you for you need a lot of prayers. I don't know how people can face all that life throws at them without that assurance.

I didn't reply to Elle's questions because they didn't really address what I was saying. They seemed totally off topic to me.

First there's that summary statement that I never wrote???

What do you mean by "Jesus gives us all we need"?
All we need for what?
This is a thread about trials in life is it not?

To succeed?
To succeed in what?

If we fail?
If we fail in what?

We've all failed -- life is hopeless without Christ's saving power. He's the one Who can lift us up, if we are willing to respond to His lifting power and love.



The second question -- "the faith of Jesus"

As we go through trials (clouds) they can have two different outcomes, we can become bitter and loose sight of our Savior, or we can turn to Him, and when we do, yes, it definitely builds our faith. The peace He can give even when our hearts are breaking, is indescribable and real, soothing the very soul. We learn to trust in Him rather than in our own ability to take care of everything.

And yes, that is our choice. He is there drawing us to Him, His Holy Spirit is there calling for us to be willing to place our trust in Him, for His ways are not our ways.
We see the temporal and feel all anxious and concerned when the temporal plans are all upended and smashed, but even if we don't understand and it makes no sense to us, He has better plans for us, maybe something better for this life, but even if not, even if we die, we can rest assured His plans are definitely to fit us for eternal life. If we are willing to fully trust and follow Him.

Elle's last question -- are you implying if we don't make it the failure is all ours we don't have the "faith of Jesus"?

Again, what do you mean "don't make it"
Don't make what?

Don't make a life without trouble and disasters?

No -- if we experience disasters and heart wrenching events it's not due to a lack of faith.
We live in world where sin is demonstrating its reality -- and that reality is trouble, disaster and awful things.

However, by your questions, it seems you are trying to derail this thread and turn it into an "everyone will be saved" thread -- you already know I do not believe in that.

Jesus does not FAIL if people choose to reject His offer of salvation. And yes, He has provided everything for our salvation. If we reject Him, we've rejected salvation.

But by presenting your false doctrine that everyone will eventually be saved, you may cause a lot of people to fail of obtaining eternal life by thinking they can push Christ out of their lives now and indulge in the destructive pleasures of sin, for they think they will be saved anyway.
If we reject Him, we've rejected salvation.

Interesting --
Other versions have a totally different translation of that verse and the whole passage takes on a completely different meaning.

First lets look at the words:
kaph = hand, palm of hand, sole (of foot)
kacah = to cover
'owr = light(s)
tsavah = command or charge
paga' = fall, meet, reach


It seems the KJV added a lot of it's own words and thoughts???

A literal reading would be
His hands cover the light he commands to fall and reach ...

Now let's look at other translations:

ESV

32 He covers his hands with the lightning and commands it to strike the mark.

NKJV
32
He covers His hands with lightning,And commands it to strike.

HCSB
He covers His hands with lightning and commands it to hit its mark.

RSV
He covers his hands with the lightning, and commands it to strike the mark.

YLT
By two palms He hath covered the light, And layeth a charge over it in meeting,

Do the above fit the original better???


The Context:


ESV
JOB
26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not;
the number of his years is unsearchable.

27 For he draws up the drops of water;
they distill his mist in rain,

28 which the skies pour down
and drop on mankind abundantly.

29 Can anyone understand the spreading of the clouds,
the thunderings of his pavilion?

30 Behold, he scatters his lightning about him
and covers the roots of the sea.

31 For by these he judges peoples;
he gives food in abundance.

32 He covers his hands with the lightning
and commands it to strike the mark.

33 Its crashing declares his presence;
the cattle also declare that he rises.

1 “At this also my heart trembles
and leaps out of its place.

2 Keep listening to the thunder of his voice
and the rumbling that comes from his mouth.
3 Under the whole heaven he lets it go,
and his lightning to the corners of the earth.

4 After it his voice roars;
he thunders with his majestic voice,
and he does not restrain the lightnings when his voice is heard.

5 God thunders wondrously with his voice;
he does great things that we cannot comprehend.

**************


Job 36:26-33
New King James Version (NKJV)

26
“Behold, God is great, and we do not know Him;
Nor can the number of His years be discovered.

27
For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,

28
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.

29
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?

30
Look, He scatters His light upon it,
And covers the depths of the sea.

31
For by these He judges the peoples;
He gives food in abundance.

32
He covers His hands with lightning,
And commands it to strike.

33
His thunder declares it,
The cattle also, concerning the rising storm.

In most of dedication Post#183844, she was evading to answer the questions like most others were doing in the exception of Alchemy. I do admire Alchemy's honesty and not being afraid to answer those hard questions. I'm sorry to put you all in that hard spot, but it was necessary so you would see by under which of the 2 covenants you actually believe and live by.

However, dedication did answer the hard question in the last 3 paragraphs of her post. I will reply to these 3 last paragraphs so hopefully I can make my point clear & briefly enough.


I'm not trying to derail the thread...but addressing the underlying problem why while the clouds cover the "light"(or His presence or His glory) ... why we feel God has left us.

Basically, it's because we do not have the assurance of salvation. Nor do we understand correctly the process of salvation that is illustrated in 3 steps & explained in the 3 feasts:Passover(justification), Pentecost(sanctification), & Tabernacle(glorification).

That's a major problem for any Christians when most of our life we will have to deal with some clouds that is always there covering His presence.


Thank you for your admission dedication...there it is. I'm not trying to condescend dedication or anyone else for having this belief ... because this is a typical belief when we (or a young church like the Israelites were when they got out of Egypt) are young in the faith. Often, this is also the only teachings we get in all denominations including SDAs. In our SDA Church we still debate the meaning of "righteousness by faith" because the very first step(of the 3) is still not understood.

So putting this in Paul's word....we have been taught this "other gospel" that Paul tried to teach us to keep away from and to enter into the New Covenant (the only gospel message) while progressing into the 2nd step of our spiritual growth as the Church at Pentecost has moved into in the upper room.

But shortly after Pentecost, the Church started to regress back into that old "other gospel" belief which is based on the Old covenant oath that depends on YOU to keep your part of the oath (Ex 19:8 "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do."). Since that "other gospel" depend on Man to continue "choosing" salvation and when things goes very wrong or we see that we fell into sin again...well we reason that it is our fault for we didn't "accept" all that Jesus provided for our salvation. So you somehow didn't "choose life".... and it becomes your failure and not Jesus.

This is not the same gospel that is based on the New Covenant where God alone makes the oath that He will make us His people(Deut 29:10-13) by writing His laws in our hearts(Jer 31:34). If His laws are written in our heart....then His laws will become natural for us to keep. Then no more coercement is needed to keep us into obedience any more.

But when these laws still exist outside of our heart [whether written on tablets of stones or on paper in our Bible] ....then obeying these laws are un-natural to us and we will always fail in some level to hit that perfect target (katah == missing, sin).

Let's examine a little closer what Deut. 29:12, 13 says regarding the New covenant oath God is making with us. It says that all of these people listed in the first part of v.12...has entered this New covenant on account of God’s oath and not on account of their own oath. Verse 12 say they entered “into His oath, which the Lord your God is making with you.” Verse 13 says God Himself made this oath in order to fulfill His promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So we further read in Gen 15:12 that God put Abraham into a “deep sleep” and then made the covenant by Himself. This is basically an unconditional covenant that God is making with us.

If it would be possible to break this covenant; then it would require God :
a) to violate His own words, or
b)to being incapable of keeping His oath.

But if God does either a) or b), that would mean He has failed. But all of us agreed that God will not fail; thus in essence He won't fail in keeping his unconditional oath either.

So the oath God made in Deut 29:12, 13 is a restatement of that “promise” that God gave earlier to Abraham. This New Covenant oath is yet to be fulfilled(via the illustration of the 3 Feasts) as it is a long-term promise until He succeeds to subdue all things under Jesus feet.

This New Covenant(Gen 15, Deut 29, Jer 31, and etc...) is conditional on God's ability to fulfill His promise to us. Whereas the Exodus 19:5-8 covenant is conditional on the people's ability to keep their promise to God.

This distinction between the two covenants are important for us to understand. Jeremiah 31 makes an association between the two covenant. First in verse 32 it says the Israelites were not capable of keeping that covenant that required the people to keep their words-vow :"not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke…". So another covenant was required to bring salvation to men where God would do on our behalf. So we read in verse, 33" “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

In another words, God vowed to take responsibility to make it happen. He did so, first by His death and resurrection, then second by sending the Holy Spirit so to start the process of writing His laws on our hearts as illustrated at Pentecost.


hmmm. Are you saying it is because you want to "obtain eternal life" that is the reason you have "chosen" to follow Jesus and have refrain from "the pleasures of sin"??? So if there's no literal Hell fire after the Millennium and your salvation is guaranteed... well you wouldn't of followed Him and you would of continued in "the pleasures of sin"?

Well if you still live under the Old covenant...yea...you still thinks it depends on you to keep your part of the oath. But scriptures shows us clearly that the Israelites failed to keep their part. Why do you think you can still succeed or anyone else?

But it is not the condition expressed by God when He made the [New-unconditional-one way] covenant to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and to all of us.

Yes -- you are trying to derail the subject into your understanding that everyone will eventually be converted.


What you fail to understand is that our conversion is not "in our strength" but by His Holy Spirit, for all who willing submit to Christ and His Holy Spirit in this life. Thus it is not "old covenant". There are many passages that stress the importance that we come to Him and that it is urgent that we respond.
There is no need for "righteousness by faith" in your doctrine, if you think everyone will eventually be saved. Just a "nothing really matters", just relax and be assured salvation is a given.

Your doctrine is not "righteousness by faith", it is not the third angel's message and definitely NOT Adventist. To teach that everyone is saved, fits into the spiritualistic doctrine promoted by the Christianized new age --

That Christianized "new age" branch of thought by the way now say their teachings must be taught with a lot of Bible quoting, to undermine the very foundations of Christianity. Clever -- and satanic. (And for those who want confirmation from sources urging this be done, I can give that as well, it is a shocking exposure of what is going on right from their writings)

I urge you, and everyone else to come out of the REAL Babylon (which is so called Christianity united with spiritualism) a spiritualistic undermining of true Christianity, for there is no salvation in that path.

What it is, is pure spiritualism --
And deadly poison.

I fear for everyone who embraces the poison which you seem to have accepted, for the end result is presumption and eternal lose.
While God longs to save everyone and salvation is offered to everyone, not everyone will be saved.

1 Peter 5:8-9 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour: Resist him, be stedfast in the faith,








Conversion is NOT legalism, nor is it "old covenant".
I see far more "old covenant" in your posts.
Righteousness by faith is not "old covenant".
It is by God's Holy Spirit calling and drawing us to Christ, and working to transform us.
But yes, the choice is ours to respond and follow Christ and yield to His leading, or reject and silence the voice of the Holy Spirit and our Savior Who has given His life to save us from sin. Those who reject him will be lost.


John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Eph.4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.



To reject Christ is to reject salvation.
To think one can have salvation anyway
is pure spiritualism --
And deadly poison.

I fear for everyone who embraces your false doctrine that everyone will be saved it matters not what they believe or how they live, for the end result is presumption and eternal loose.

Is it necessary to characterize someone else's theology or belief system as "spiritualism" and "poison" and "satanic?" Can one instead point out the "error" (as you see it) in their logic and present what you believe? Of course one may say that the other is wrong; that is what this forum is for. But to characterize another's post thusly is A) unchristian, B) unscholarly, C) reveals a heavy bias, D) goes against forum rules and E) does not set a tone on the form which promotes legitimate discussion.

I believe that such characterizations and "discussion" methods are one of the reasons why the serious Bible scholars mentioned in my other thread are no longer participating here.

And, on a personal note, I would rather associate and discuss things with Elle and HisChild, DESPITE THE FACT I THINK THEIR THEOLOGY IS WAY OFF, who treat others as Christians, than with others, such as but not limited to, dedication and ProdigalOne who rip a new ******* on anyone who disagrees with them.