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Re: Left wing financial lunacy [Re: ] #184051
06/09/17 06:12 AM
06/09/17 06:12 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Quote:
•And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, what you will put on. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.

•Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass, which is alive in the field today, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith!

•And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried. For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them. Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.

•Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

--- Luke 12:22-34

Those are excellent Bible verses, and ones we need to remember as the world economy teeters on the brink of economic collapse.

Some here have fore-fathers who have gone through a complete economic crash when their nations currency inflated pretty much over night so that the sale of a house brought a wheel barrow of money that was enough to buy a loaf of bread.

November 1923, one US dollar was worth 4,210,500,000,000 German marks.
On November 16, 1923, new currency, the Rentenmark was introduced to replace the worthless paper marks.
There were only a limited amount of Rentenmarks available and the new currency stabilized at about 4 Rentenmarks = one USA dollar.

But obviously -- all who had laid up their treasure in German banks lost it all.

What cased this collapse.
---Debt
---printing a lot of money

A huge debt was imposed on Germany by the Treaty of Versailles after WWI It was to be paid by gold or foreign currency. The Weimar government attempted to pay it by using German marks to buy foreign currency in order to pay off the debt.
As they printed more money the value of that money dropped rapidly, which meant they had to print a lot more to pay their debt, which caused the value to drop even more.

America is doing much the same --
Their advantage is the petrodollar position they hold.

There is nothing "despicable" about talking about the problems facing America at this time.

What was the result of the economic crash in Germany?
It made the country rife for a dictator!

A collapse of the monetary and financial system in America will wipe out a great deal of wealth held not only in America but by all classes of citizens throughout the world.
Dictatorship is a natural result.

Indeed, in times like these those Bible verses are important!

Could our countries today hit hyper inflation, causing their currency to have no more value,
Could they simply "cancel" their debts, by rejecting their present currency. and making a limited supply of new currency?

Re: Left wing financial lunacy [Re: dedication] #184052
06/09/17 09:56 AM
06/09/17 09:56 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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...And how much of all this financial crisis is just a bunch of man-made regulations that have no basis in nature?!? I think much of it is.

Re: Left wing financial lunacy [Re: Alchemy] #184058
06/09/17 11:29 PM
06/09/17 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
...And how much of all this financial crisis is just a bunch of man-made regulations that have no basis in nature?!? I think much of it is.


That it was caused by government manipulations and mismanagement and regulations is true. However, the crises is real-- and just changing the regulations now will not get rid of the crises. What was sown to the wind will be reaped by a whirl wind.

If they keep on printing money they cause more and more inflation.
If they stop printing money it will cause huge depression.

The economy is so globally interlocked now that should the USA's economy falters now -- it will also falter (often even worse) in most other countries.

Listen to J.R. Hoffman's sermon "The Coming Crisis".
.
It's a little "old" 2011, but the principles are right on.



Re: Left wing financial lunacy [Re: dedication] #184061
06/10/17 02:55 PM
06/10/17 02:55 PM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
That it was caused by government manipulations and mismanagement and regulations is true. However, the crises is real-- and just changing the regulations now will not get rid of the crises. What was sown to the wind will be reaped by a whirl wind.


I would only say that the economic crisis can be completely avoided. It just depends on what God will allow.

Last edited by Alchemy; 06/10/17 02:56 PM.
Re: Left wing financial lunacy [Re: dedication] #184064
06/10/17 10:42 PM
06/10/17 10:42 PM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Quote:
•And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, what you will put on. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.

•Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass, which is alive in the field today, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith!

And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried. For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them. Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.

•Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

--- Luke 12:22-34

Those are excellent Bible verses, and ones we need to remember.


That is true.

If you look at what was underscored in red, that we ought not to "seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried. For all the nations of the world seek after these things," it goes right against the heart of the American independent, individualistic, consumerist, capitalist society.

What Jesus is advocating is more of the Scandinavian and Singaporean socialist model where people do not worry about what would happen to them should they fall ill, and recently in Finland, should they become unemployed.

The same idea is encapsulated in Mal. 3:10:
  • Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
    That there may be food in My house,

    And try Me now in this,
    Says the Lord of hosts,
    If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
    And pour out for you such blessing
    That there will not be room enough to receive it.

In other words, most of the money you earn you voluntarily return in taxes, tithes, offerings, charitable donations, and helping hands; so that no one is rich beyond measure, yet everyone is wealthy beyond all imagination. There are excellent schools, beautiful public parks, architectural wonders, quick and courteous services -- all the things that make for a healthy and prosperous society.

"Freely you receive, freely give."

Reference:

Scandinavia

Singapore


///








Re: Left wing financial lunacy [Re: James Peterson] #184067
06/11/17 05:27 AM
06/11/17 05:27 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson


If you look at what was underscored in red, that we ought not to "seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried. For all the nations of the world seek after these things," it goes right against the heart of the American independent, individualistic, consumerist, capitalist society.

What Jesus is advocating is more of the Scandinavian and Singaporean socialist model where people do not worry about what would happen to them should they fall ill, and recently in Finland, should they become unemployed.

The same idea is encapsulated in Mal. 3:10:
  • Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
    That there may be food in My house,

    And try Me now in this,
    Says the Lord of hosts,
    If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
    And pour out for you such blessing
    That there will not be room enough to receive it.

In other words, most of the money you earn you voluntarily return in taxes, tithes, offerings, charitable donations, and helping hands; so that no one is rich beyond measure, yet everyone is wealthy beyond all imagination. There are excellent schools, beautiful public parks, architectural wonders, quick and courteous services -- all the things that make for a healthy and prosperous society.

"Freely you receive, freely give."



The tithe system was to pay the Levites who worked for the sanctuary service. It was to promote God's work -- it was basically giving back a portion of what God granted them, back to God.
It wasn't really to sustain the general population. They were expected work for their living as we see in the following verses.

Pr.12:11 Those who work their land will have abundant food, but those who chase fantasies have no sense.
Pr. 13:4 A sluggard’s appetite is never filled, but the desires of the diligent are fully satisfied.
Pr. 12:24 Diligent hands will rule, but laziness ends in forced labor.
Pr. 14:23 All hard work brings a profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty.

1 Tim. 5:8 Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


While assisting the truly poor is taught in scripture, the scriptures do NOT support giving handouts to encourage idleness or laziness. They do not really support a "socialist" type of government.
Paul -- even when dealing with financial support of widows, taught a screening for recipients so only the widows who truly needed assistance and were diligent in church work were put on the list. (See 1 Timothy 5)

It is interesting to note that the biblical welfare system was a system of work (Leviticus 19:10; 23:22)
The landowners were to leave some grain standing so the poor could come and glean what was left.

Also the texts "not to worry" and not to "lay up treasure" etc.
are not against working to supply our needs, they are against worrying and against making money the chief goal in life.

I agree with the concept of generosity --
greed is NOT a righteous attribute.

Yes, greed will cause problems in capitalism, but it is also a huge problem in socialism and communism.

So to condemn capitalism because of greed, is to throw the baby out with the bath water.

It is only in a capitalist society where people can truly be generous and willing to give to help others.



To often people take a verse way beyond it's true meaning and exclude it from other verses that give the balanced picture in order to promote SOCIALISM. (or some other concept) At first socialism may look good, but it can grows out of hand rather quickly -- placing control into the hands of a few who take control of all wealth and then grudgingly dispense to the dependent sheepies just enough to keep them alive and working for the system. It's no not a guarantee for a healthy and prosperous society.

Re: Left wing financial lunacy [Re: James Peterson] #184072
06/11/17 07:22 AM
06/11/17 07:22 AM
G
Garywk  Offline OP
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Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
The US Dollar isn't called the petro-dollar for nothing!

Just speaking for myself here. We have people that still put a lot more trust in what those who believe themselves to be economic teachers say and think. Such as the Federal Reserve Chairperson.

I don't!!!

In 2008-09 I finally learned my lesson and stopped listening to the economic pundits. Even then Chair of the US Fed Alan Greenspan admitted he would have to re-think the economy.

I already knew that by that time of the US investigation into the 2008-09 crash.

I have spent time since then in Keynes, Hayek, Social Credit, Islamic, Modern Monetary Theory and a couple of others. I don't subscribe to any of them, although, I do take bits and pieces from most of them anyway.

There is one person though that God has used to give me much focus in economic matters and his name is Professor Richard Werner from Southhampton College. He has a documentary called "Princes of the Yen" that really honed my understanding about both money and debt. He is the guy that first coined the term "quantitative easing". And it isn't what you are led to think it is by today's economic pundits.

In the first 7-8 minutes of his doc "Princes of the Yen", we learn what real quantitative easing really is.

We need to changes the structure and function of our economy and we can. We will see what God allows.


If you really understood Hayek and Mises you would understand that they stood 100% against what is going on in today's economies. If their ideas had been followed world wide the economies of the entire world would be stable, poverty would be far less than it is today, and things like unemployment and inflation would not be the problems they are today. It isn't that they might not exist at all, but that they would be reduced considerably for it is impossible to get rid of all unemployment. Not all people want to work, and there are always winners and losers in a free market thus while come companies prosper others fail, and those failures lead to loss of jobs. Thus there will always be some unemployment.

Did you know that the only national economy ever set up by God was an economy based upon capitalism and no government intervention in the economy? It's true. Look at the economic structure God set up in ancient Israel. Now, all capitalism really means is the private ownership of land, natural resources, means of production, etc.... Now look at the laws of ancient Israel and you will find no laws governing how business was to be done other than those laws which limit greed and the harming of people through that greed. That means ancient Israel had a lassez faire capitalistic economy. The only "taxes" that God established were to support the priesthood and the poor. The Bible calls them tithes. There were no other forms of taxation. Those didn't come along until the Israelites rejected God as their king and asked for a king like the nations around them had. God warned them what would come of it but they refused to listen and insisted on their own way.

Again, you are lying to the people! China has a centralized system of government and today is on course to become the largest economy in the world. Be careful of dragging God's name down into the pit of the "prosperity gospel".

God does NOT run an economy. We are taught to pray, "OUR FATHER who is in heaven ..." In Him, we move and have our being: and all that He has created has been given to us freely as an inheritance for which we neither work nor toil, but only discover and manage.

  • And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, what you will put on. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.
     
  • Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass, which is alive in the field today, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith!
     
  • And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried. For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them. Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.
     
  • Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

    --- Luke 12:22-34

See what is underlined in red? But you have become enraptured by Trumpian Economics and have set yourself up as the President's Evangelist among Christians deceptively endeavouring to secure their support as the Serpent in the Garden. It is a despicable work you do.

///


James,

I know you honestly believe what you're saying, but you are dead wrong about and I'm going to give you numbers that show just how wrong you are.

You say the centralized government of China has been successful economically. Well, let's look at the numbers and the hard facts.

We will go for the year 2015 as the relevant numbers for that year are readily available online for both the US and China.

In 2015 China had a gdp of $10.87 trillion. The US had a gdp of $17.95 trillion. Not a huge difference but a considerable one. Now let's look at the population numbers for both countries. China had a population of 1.371 billion people. The US had a population of 321.4 million people.

Now to find the average income of the citizens of both nations we divide the gdp by the population. That means China's per capita income is found by the following formula: 10,870,000,000,000/1,371,000,000. That equals a per capita income of $7928.52. Not a whole lot.

Now let's look at the per capita income in the Us. That is found by the following formula: 17,950,000,000,000/321,400,000. That equals a per capita income of $55,849.41.

This shows that the per capita income in the US is just a hair over 7 times greater than in China. Which country has more prosperous citizens?

The numbers I used above have had some rounding done, but both sets of numbers have been rounded the same way. That's just for clarity and ease of understanding the numbers. The rounding in no way influences the outcomes of the calculations in any significant way.

Now let's look at evidence even worse for your point of view. It wasn't until in the 1990's that China began to relax its absolutely rigid centralized control over its economy and began moving towards a capitalistic economy. The following link shows a graph of China's growth economically since 1960. You will see a line almost completely flat until the Chinese government began relaxing its economic controls. Then the line showing their economic growth began to move upwards. https://www.google.com/search?q=china+gd...me&ie=UTF-8

In the last couple of years there has begun to be a lot of skepticism about the official Chinese numbers as there are Chinese officials who acknowledged that they have inflated the numbers for their areas of the country to enhance their political power. And, part of the increase in China's economic numbers are due to inflation due to the massive amounts of debt that their economy is now based on.

In 2016 alone Chinese banks made $1.8 trillion in loans. That's more than 1/10 of their entire economic activity. And, in 2017 we are finding that the wealthy Chinese are starting to use the crypto currencies to move their wealth out of Chinese currency and into the world outside of China because of their fears the Chinese economy is going to collapse due to government manipulation of their currency and their economy.

I can give evidence for both if you like. I just didn't spend time to go find the things I've read on this right now. I can find it though, do not suppose that I cannot for I post nothing without being able to document what I say.

Last edited by Gary K; 06/11/17 07:42 AM.
Re: Left wing financial lunacy [Re: James Peterson] #184073
06/11/17 07:36 AM
06/11/17 07:36 AM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Where have I ever said I endorsed the "prosperity gospel"? That is a flat out misrepresentation of all I have said, and what the prosperity gospel actually is.

The prosperity gospel is the teaching that all we have to do is ask God for wealth and He will make sure we become wealthy.

Re: Left wing financial lunacy [Re: dedication] #184080
06/11/17 11:21 AM
06/11/17 11:21 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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But, the Bible has some really good economic news in 2 Chronicles 1:15. Gold and silver as plentiful as stones.

Re: Left wing financial lunacy [Re: ] #184082
06/11/17 03:20 PM
06/11/17 03:20 PM
G
Garywk  Offline OP
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Quote:
While assisting the truly poor is taught in scripture, the scriptures do NOT support giving handouts to encourage idleness or laziness. They do not really support a "socialist" type of government.


The following comes from a book titled About My Father's business written by a man named Thomas Archer in the 1870's. It is a free download from the Gutenberg Project.

Quote:
Would it not be useful to ask ourselves the question whether we are forgetting the true meaning of "charity" in the constant endeavour to take advantage of organized benevolent institutions, about the actual working of which we concern ourselves very little? As the years go on, and what we call civilisation advances, are we or are we not losing sight of "our neighbour" in a long vista of vicarious benefactions, bestowed through the medium of a subscription list, or casual contributions at an "anniversary festival?"

At the speeches that are made on such occasions, when the banquet is over, and the reading of the amounts subscribed is accompanied by the cracking of nuts and a crescendo or decrescendo of applause, in proportion to the liberality of the donors, we are so frequently reminded of "the good Samaritan," that we begin to feel that we may claim some kind of relationship to him; and may shake our heads with solemn sorrow at the inexcusable conduct of the priest and the Levite. It would be worth while, however, to ask ourselves whether we quite come up to the mark of him who, finding the man wounded and helpless by the wayside, dismounted that he might convey the sufferer to the nearest inn; poured out oil for his wounds and wine for his cheer; left him with money in hand for the supply of his immediate needs; and did not scruple—with a robust and secure honesty—even to get into debt on his behalf: since the crown of good-will would be the coming again to learn of the patient's welfare. The debt was a pledge of the intention.

That was the Lord Christ's way of looking at charitable responsibility, and at benevolent effort; and even granting that He illustrated the answer to the question, "Who is my neighbour?" by an extreme case of sudden distress, the longer we look at the peculiar needs of the man who was on his way from Jerusalem to Jericho, the more perhaps we shall be convinced that there are greater, far greater evils, and more terrible accidents, than to fall among thieves, who temporarily rob, strip, and disable their victim.

The present fashion of dealing with such an unfortunate traveller would very much depend on which particular class of philanthropists the modern Samaritan who found him by the road-side happened to belong to.

Of course, it would be a scandal to our Christianity to follow either priest or Levite, although our cowardly sympathies might lie between the two; so, in order to make all safe, we hit on a compromise, and, according to our circumstances, try to find a medium line of conduct between Samaritan and Levite, or Samaritan and priest. We are ashamed to pass on without doing something, and so we call at the inn on our way, and leave the twopence there, in case anybody else should think fit to bring on the man who is lying, stunned and bleeding, in the roadway. Or else, having contrived to rouse the poor fellow to a little effort, we borrow an ass and take him back with us, to find some organised institution for the relief of those who fall among thieves, where the wine and oil are contracted for out of the funds. And there we leave him, without remembering anything whatever about the twopenny contribution which would represent our own share in the benefaction.

It is an awful thought, and one which it may be hoped will soon become intolerable, that, with the mechanical perfection of means for relieving the necessities of those who are afficted, there seems to grow upon us a deadly indifference to the very deepest need of all—that personal, human sympathy, without which all our boast of benevolence is but as the sounding of brass and the tinkling of a cymbal. Can it be possible that we are approaching a condition when, refusing to have the poor and the afficted, the widow and the orphan always with us, we shut them away out of our sight, leaving the whole duty of visiting them, of clothing them, of giving them meat and drink, to be done by an official committee; a charitable board, distributing doles, exactly calculated, on a carefully devised scale, and divided to the ounce or the inch, in supposed proportion to the individual need of each recipient? Will there ever come a time when we shall persuade ourselves that we fulfill the law of Christ by paying so much in the pound for a charity rate, and leaving all the actual "relief" to be effected by an official department. or a series of official committees?


Notice in particular the last paragraph. This is exactly what socialism does. It insulates the taxpayer against having to actually know, care about, and love the poor man he is supposedly "helping" with his "charity". It is the antithesis of what Jesus taught as real charity with the parable of the Good Samaritan.

Last edited by Gary K; 06/11/17 03:25 PM.
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The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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