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Legal AND/OR healing restoration, #184287
07/01/17 12:56 AM
07/01/17 12:56 AM
dedication  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
This thread has been opened to keep another thread from going off topic.

The discussion so far:

Originally Posted By: APL
And here is where I differ from dedication - in her description, she adds the term "forensic", as if salvation is a legal process. Salvation is much more than that. Salvation is a healing process, and Christ's ministry is not a judicial process. Also, the penalty for a legal process is an imposed penalty while the penalty of sin is intrinsic. Sin kills, not God. Sinners will perish, but not by execution.


Originally Posted By: dedication
Those who come to Christ and look to Him for their salvation are changed -- call it healed, transformed, made new, born again -- salvation in Christ changes our hearts and minds, yes that is true -- I fully agree!

However, the judgment is also a legal "forensic" activity. When the court is seated and the books are opened and the names are presented before the Father and the angels--- (Dan. 7:9,10,14, Rev. 3:5)When either our sins are blotted out or our names (Rev. 3:5) --- a final decision is made (Rev. 22:11) -- and that is a "forensic" or legal action, based on our response to the greater aspect of salvation.

Originally Posted By: Wanderer
I think you are both right, just saying it in different words! smile


Originally Posted By: Alchemy
I disagree Wanderer.

The information from dedication is completely correct, whereas, the information from APL is only partially correct.

Salvation has a very serious legal application to it. Calvary was taught in the earthly sanctuary through the alter of burned offerings. We see multiple processes being fulfilled in the ministry of Christ and His death and resurrection.

Originally Posted By: APL
It is the "ministry of healing", not the "ministry of Jurisprudence". Living next to a pardon criminal does not give one comfort unless you know that the person is changed, transformed. Physicians make judgments every day, but they are not "legal" judgments. They are judgments that assess a situation as it really is.


Originally Posted By: dedication
Isn't that why there is an Investigative Judgment -- there is no need to worry about living next to a pardoned criminal because only those sinners (and we are all sinners and have come short of the glory of God) who have been both pardoned and "born again" in Christ, renewed in heart and mind by the Holy Spirit, who will have their names retained in the book of life.

We are all sinners -- that includes you APL, as well as me.
I definitely need pardon for my sins, as well as cleansing and healing and overcoming by the blood of the Lamb.
Don't you desire pardon for your sins? Your sins will stand against you in that judgment, no matter how good you might become, if you don't seek and believe in that pardon which only Christ can give you.


Originally Posted By: APL
Son is not a "legal" problem. We need "cleansing" from sin. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The word translated "forgive" in this verse is aphiemi, which is the idea of causing something to go into remission. Much like making cancer go into remission. A person with cancer does not need a "legal" solution to their problem, they need a real solution.

In the investigative judgment, God is as much if not more on trial than the saved sinners. God is showing His case that the righteous are safe to save, safe to be in heaven. They are not legally let off the hook but are actually a new creature, cleansed of all unrighteousness.


Originally Posted By: Gary
Yeah, when living under a government with laws breaking the law of that government is never a legal problem. Where do you come up with such nonsense?

Originally Posted By: APL
Gary - is violating the law of gravity or respiration a legal problem? These laws govern life. Sin is not a legal problem. Violation of natures laws have intrinsic consequences. The same with sin. The penalty of sin is not an imposed execution, but and intrinsic consequence. Human governments rule by imposed laws with imposed consequences. Many of these laws may have good intentions. But they are arbitrary. A speed limit of 55 MPH instead of 45 MPH may have good reasons, but such a law is still arbitrary. God's government is not like the governments of this world. Wanting to be like the world was a big part of Israel's downfall.

Would you gary k be pleased to live next door to a pardoned mass murder and pedophile? Would you be satisfied with a legal pardon? Or is there something more you'd like to know about that person?

)



Last edited by dedication; 07/01/17 01:24 AM.
Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184289
07/01/17 01:19 AM
07/01/17 01:19 AM
dedication  Offline OP
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The problem with this discussion is that some want to separate two essential aspects of salvation (the need to have our sins forgiven, and the need for our hearts and minds to be brought in tune with God's righteous ways) and pit them against each other.

While the truth is that both are essential.



Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184291
07/01/17 02:30 AM
07/01/17 02:30 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
And here is where I differ from dedication - in her description, she adds the term "forensic", as if salvation is a legal process. Salvation is much more than that. Salvation is a healing process, and Christ's ministry is not a judicial process. Also, the penalty for a legal process is an imposed penalty while the penalty of sin is intrinsic. Sin kills, not God. Sinners will perish, but not by execution.


Salvation IS a legal process. Jesus came to fulfill the law, so that we don't have to die. He took our death, according to the law, so that He would have legal authority to grant us pardon. Remember the question in Revelation 5:2 "Who is worthy to open the book?" Christ made Himself worthy by living a perfect life as one of us, and then becoming our Sacrifice. Only Christ is worthy to open that book on our behalf.

Originally Posted By: dedication
Those who come to Christ and look to Him for their salvation are changed -- call it healed, transformed, made new, born again -- salvation in Christ changes our hearts and minds, yes that is true -- I fully agree!

However, the judgment is also a legal "forensic" activity. When the court is seated and the books are opened and the names are presented before the Father and the angels--- (Dan. 7:9,10,14, Rev. 3:5)When either our sins are blotted out or our names (Rev. 3:5) --- a final decision is made (Rev. 22:11) -- and that is a "forensic" or legal action, based on our response to the greater aspect of salvation.


"Forensic" may not be the best word choice, on account of its typical usage and connotations. I think there are better options. However, I agree with the fact that salvation involves "legal action."

Originally Posted By: Wanderer
I think you are both right, just saying it in different words! smile


Wanderer,

With all due respect, you have not been here very long. They are not saying the same thing at all, but you lack awareness of what APL is promoting. He is too indirect in what he has said here for you to grasp fully his position. This forum has literally borne the weight of thousands of posts on this topic, and yet the debate continues.

Originally Posted By: Alchemy
I disagree Wanderer.

The information from dedication is completely correct, whereas, the information from APL is only partially correct.

Salvation has a very serious legal application to it. Calvary was taught in the earthly sanctuary through the alter of burned offerings. We see multiple processes being fulfilled in the ministry of Christ and His death and resurrection.


Alchemy,

Well said--but "alter" should be "altar." smile

Originally Posted By: APL
It is the "ministry of healing", not the "ministry of Jurisprudence". Living next to a pardon criminal does not give one comfort unless you know that the person is changed, transformed. Physicians make judgments every day, but they are not "legal" judgments. They are judgments that assess a situation as it really is.


APL, Physicians are not judges. Your analogy breaks down because physicians do not occupy a position anywhere near that of God. In fact, it might be reasonably said that virtually every good and necessary occupation here on earth reflects a portion of God's character. God is a study in contrasts and diversity. God is a judge, an advocate/lawyer, a teacher, a physician, a janitor, a mechanic, a general, a counselor, an executioner (cf. Exd. 12:12; Num. 33:4), a King, a servant, a shepherd and a Lamb, a Creator and a destroyer (cf. Gen. 6:7,13; Lev. 26:30; Jer. 15:7; 46:8; Eze. 6:3; 25:7; 28:16; 32:3; 34:16; Amos 9:8; Mic. 5:10; Hag. 2:22).

Originally Posted By: dedication
Isn't that why there is an Investigative Judgment -- there is no need to worry about living next to a pardoned criminal because only those sinners (and we are all sinners and have come short of the glory of God) who have been both pardoned and "born again" in Christ, renewed in heart and mind by the Holy Spirit, who will have their names retained in the book of life.

We are all sinners -- that includes you APL, as well as me.
I definitely need pardon for my sins, as well as cleansing and healing and overcoming by the blood of the Lamb.
Don't you desire pardon for your sins? Your sins will stand against you in that judgment, no matter how good you might become, if you don't seek and believe in that pardon which only Christ can give you.


Amen.

Originally Posted By: APL
Son is not a "legal" problem. We need "cleansing" from sin. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The word translated "forgive" in this verse is aphiemi, which is the idea of causing something to go into remission. Much like making cancer go into remission. A person with cancer does not need a "legal" solution to their problem, they need a real solution.

In the investigative judgment, God is as much if not more on trial than the saved sinners. God is showing His case that the righteous are safe to save, safe to be in heaven. They are not legally let off the hook but are actually a new creature, cleansed of all unrighteousness.


APL, the very definition of sin involves "transgression of the law". . .
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government. {GC 492.2}


By trying to make sin "not a 'legal' problem," you effectively deny the authority of God through the Bible and Ellen White both.

Sin IS a legal problem--very much so. God's LAW was broken. You may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, however, in trying to advocate against religion being only a legal matter--it is not. As Dedication already implied, it requires both the letter and the spirit of the law. Ellen White speaks to this.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. {DA 172.1}


Originally Posted By: Gary
Yeah, when living under a government with laws breaking the law of that government is never a legal problem. Where do you come up with such nonsense?


Indeed, his views on this matter are nonsense. Unfortunately, the nonsense is spreading, and I wonder if we do right by allowing its continued representation on this forum. There must be a balance between justice and mercy.

Originally Posted By: APL
Gary - is violating the law of gravity or respiration a legal problem? These laws govern life. Sin is not a legal problem. Violation of natures laws have intrinsic consequences. The same with sin. The penalty of sin is not an imposed execution, but and intrinsic consequence. Human governments rule by imposed laws with imposed consequences. Many of these laws may have good intentions. But they are arbitrary. A speed limit of 55 MPH instead of 45 MPH may have good reasons, but such a law is still arbitrary. God's government is not like the governments of this world. Wanting to be like the world was a big part of Israel's downfall.

Would you gary k be pleased to live next door to a pardoned mass murder and pedophile? Would you be satisfied with a legal pardon? Or is there something more you'd like to know about that person?


What you see as "laws of nature" ARE God's laws. We can break those laws--and it is sin.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
It is as truly a sin to violate the laws of our being as it is to break the ten commandments. To do either is to break God's laws. Those who transgress the law of God in their physical organism, will be inclined to violate the law of God spoken from Sinai. {CTBH 53.1}


Originally Posted By: dedication
The problem with this discussion is that some want to separate two essential aspects of salvation (the need to have our sins forgiven, and the need for our hearts and minds to be brought in tune with God's righteous ways) and pit them against each other.

While the truth is that both are essential.


Yes, both of those are essential, but the underlying philosophies parroted here by APL and several others in the past go beyond the surface appearance of this simple dichotomy. What APL is actually teaching is that God's law cannot be law because it would be unfair, and since God is not unfair, His law is just an "intrinsic" thing that has nothing to do with legality. Looked at more closely, the argument morphs into saying simply: "God's law is unfair." This is Satan's argument, and has been his argument since the beginning of the Great Controversy.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. When men broke the law of God, and defied His will, Satan exulted. It was proved, he declared, that the law could not be obeyed; man could not be forgiven. Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God's favor. God could not be just, he urged, and yet show mercy to the sinner. {DA 761.4}


To illustrate how important every part of the law is, notice the exactitude of the following:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Whenever men choose their own way, they place themselves in controversy with God. They will have no place in the kingdom of heaven, for they are at war with the very principles of heaven. In disregarding the will of God, they are placing themselves on the side of Satan, the enemy of God and man. Not by one word, not by many words, but by every word that God has spoken, shall man live. We cannot disregard one word, however trifling it may seem to us, and be safe. There is not a commandment of the law that is not for the good and happiness of man, both in this life and in the life to come. In obedience to God's law, man is surrounded as with a hedge and kept from the evil. He who breaks down this divinely erected barrier at one point has destroyed its power to protect him; for he has opened a way by which the enemy can enter to waste and ruin. {MB 52.1}

By venturing to disregard the will of God upon one point, our first parents opened the floodgates of woe upon the world. And every individual who follows their example will reap a similar result. The love of God underlies every precept of His law, and he who departs from the commandment is working his own unhappiness and ruin. {MB 52.2}


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184293
07/01/17 05:06 AM
07/01/17 05:06 AM
dedication  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
And here is where I differ from dedication - in her description, she adds the term "forensic", as if salvation is a legal process. Salvation is much more than that.


That sentence did not consider the context in which I used the word.

The word "forensic" in my earlier post was used in explaining the definition of the word "cleansed" in Daniel 8:14 --
"Then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" (tsadaq)

Originally Posted By: dedication
The word in Daniel 8:14 is
(#6663) “ntsadaq” from "tsadaq" which has a forensic meaning of “justify, vindicate, clear, made righteousness, cleanse" .
Forensic means it is connected with or used in courts of law.

tsadaq #H6663 means to "justify", "just" "justice"
Only once (in Daniel 8:14) is it translated as "cleansed".

The word "tsadaq" has a "forensic" or legal meaning when we consider its use in these verses:


Gen 44:16
And Judah said, What shall we say unto my lord? what shall we speak? or how shall we clear ourselves? H6663

Ex. 23:7 "I will not justify H6663 the wicked.


Deut 25:1
If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify H6663 the righteous, and condemn the wicked.


2Sa 15:4
Absalom said moreover, Oh that I were made judge in the land, that every man which hath any suit or cause might come unto me, and I would do him justice! H6663


1Ki 8:32
Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying H6663 the righteous


Job 9:20
If I justify H6663 myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse

Prov. 17:15

He that justifieth H6663 the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184294
07/01/17 06:12 AM
07/01/17 06:12 AM
G
Garywk  Offline
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Colville, Wa
What does the Bible say about sin?

Quote:
IJohn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


Quote:
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


The word "imputed" comes from the Greek word ellogeo. Strong's interprets it as follows:
Quote:
1677 ellogeo el-log-eh'-o from 1722 and 3056 (in the sense of account); to reckon in, i.e. attribute:--impute, put on account. see GREEK for 1722 see GREEK for 3056


In other words, sin is not attributed to us where there is no law. This makes sin and the guilt we have for breaking the law inseparable from the law. If the law did not exist we would not be guilty. This is a legal definition of sin and guilt.

Quote:
Psalm 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.


The word from which "transgressions" is transalated means the following as per Strong's:
Quote:
6588 pesha` peh'-shah from 6586; a revolt (national, moral or religious):--rebellion, sin, transgression, trespass. see HEBREW for 06586


Transgressions are a revolt, or in other words a rebellion. What is a rebellion?
Quote:
The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Rebellion Re*bel"lion (r[-e]*b[e^]l"y[u^]n), n. [F.
r['e]bellion, L. rebellio. See Rebel, v. i. Among the
Romans rebellion was originally a revolt or open resistance
to their government by nations that had been subdued in war.
It was a renewed war.]
1. The act of rebelling; open and avowed renunciation of the
authority of the government to which one owes obedience,
and resistance to its officers and laws, either by levying
war, or by aiding others to do so; an organized uprising
of subjects for the purpose of coercing or overthrowing
their lawful ruler or government by force
; revolt;
insurrection.


In other words, rebellion is intent to overthrow a lawful ruler. This is, once again, a legally defined action. Rebellion against God is an action that seeks to overthrow legal authority. Thus we cannot separate sin from rebellion against legal authority. This makes sin a legal matter.

God's government is run by the rule of law. The rule of law is, very simply put, described in Matthew 7;
Quote:
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.


The rule of law is that set of, easily understood by all, laws by which a person can so order his behavior that he can do as he pleases so long as he does not injure or do any harm to another. This points to the fact that God's law is the perfect set of laws for they are easily understood by everyone, and if followed all mankind would live at peace with his fellow man in every aspect of his life. What I have given here is Friederich Hayek's definition of the rule of law, and it is also, very obviously, Jesus' definition of the rule of law. Interestingly enough, Hayek, in his definition of the rule of law, uses the same Greek word Matthew 7:12 uses that is translated as "law".

God's law is love. And, God's love is law. They cannot be separated. When we violate His law we violate His love. When we violate His love, we violate His law.

Time and time again, and I have shown only a few examples, the Bible defines sin in legal terms. But is it only a legal matter? No. It is also a moral matter. It is also a matter of love. All of these things are combined in sin. They cannot be separated without destroying the Biblical concept of sin.

Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: Green Cochoa] #184297
07/01/17 11:21 AM
07/01/17 11:21 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Thanks Green,

You're correct. Alter is the wrong word altogether. I did mean to spell altar.

Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184298
07/01/17 10:49 PM
07/01/17 10:49 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
The problem with this discussion is that some want to separate two essential aspects of salvation (the need to have our sins forgiven, and the need for our hearts and minds to be brought in tune with God's righteous ways) and pit them against each other.

While the truth is that both are essential.


The program is that some do not understand "forgiveness" and treat it like a legal issue. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The word translated "forgive" is Aphiemi, which has to do with the offender rather than the offended. It is a sending away, a causing to go into remission in the offender. It is not legal issue.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184299
07/01/17 11:18 PM
07/01/17 11:18 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: green
Salvation IS a legal process.
Salvation is a HEALING process, not a legal process.

God's LAW is a design law, not a legal law. Just as gravity is not a legal law. The laws of nature are just as much God's law as the moral law. And as such, the penalty of transgression of the law is INTRINSIC, not imposed.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: APL] #184300
07/01/17 11:43 PM
07/01/17 11:43 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
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Colville, Wa
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: dedication
The problem with this discussion is that some want to separate two essential aspects of salvation (the need to have our sins forgiven, and the need for our hearts and minds to be brought in tune with God's righteous ways) and pit them against each other.

While the truth is that both are essential.


The program is that some do not understand "forgiveness" and treat it like a legal issue. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The word translated "forgive" is Aphiemi, which has to do with the offender rather than the offended. It is a sending away, a causing to go into remission in the offender. It is not legal issue.

That conclusion is pretty much disputable. When a person is pardoned for a crime everything you just stated is true for them. They have their legal rights restored. They are once again in the good graces of the lawful government. They are once again at peace with the lawful government. All of their legal issues are sent into remission. There is a healing of the relationship between them and the lawful government.

In other words, the meaning of the word applies just as much to legal issues as it does to relationship issues.

This is what you do on many subjects. You grasp onto one detail and ignore all evidence to the contrary. And Luke 6:37 is at odds with your point of view. In it the are the terms: judge, condemn and forgive. Each and every instance is a legal term.

Quote:
Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:


Judge:
Quote:
2919 krino kree'-no properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.


condemn:
Quote:
2613 katadikazo kat-ad-ik-ad'-zo from 2596 and a derivative of 1349; to adjudge against, i.e. pronounce guilty:--condemn. see GREEK for 2596 see GREEK for 1349


forgive:
Quote:
630 apoluo ap-ol-oo'-o from 575 and 3089; to free fully, i.e. (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively, depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon or (specially) divorce:--(let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty. see GREEK for 575 see GREEK for 3089


You do the same violence to scripture that Sequira does. He ignores vast areas of scripture that contradict what he says. He redefines words to mean only what he wants them to mean--private interpretation. You do exactly the same.

Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: APL] #184301
07/02/17 12:43 AM
07/02/17 12:43 AM
G
Garywk  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
Salvation IS a legal process.
Salvation is a HEALING process, not a legal process.

God's LAW is a design law, not a legal law. Just as gravity is not a legal law. The laws of nature are just as much God's law as the moral law. And as such, the penalty of transgression of the law is INTRINSIC, not imposed.


LOL. I guess, apl, that when God set the punishment for crimes in Israel those were intrinsic punishment. You know, stoning someone to death for breaking God's law. A very intrinsic punishment. The stones just leapt up off the ground and hit the guilty person. No one even touched them. No one actually imposed those punishments.

And just because the laws of the physical world were created by God does not make them the equivalent of His moral law. There is no right or wrong, no morality nor immorality, involved in the physical laws by which the universe operates. In other words they do not give us the knowledge of sin. The distinction of being moral law is held alone by the 10 commandments.

God's moral law is a prescriptive law for it defines both acceptable and unacceptable behavior, and applies the same way to our thoughts and ideas as well. It discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart. And it is by the law that we come to the knowledge of what sin is.

Quote:
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Your conclusion, so called, is nothing more than a conflating of physical and moral law. You confuse the differences between them by attempting to make them one and the same in nature. They are not now, and never have been, the same in nature. This is actually the false analogy fallacy.

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