After all of the prior discussion seen on this forum addressing this very question, I had believed it was clear that the Bible said both of those things you mention. But, deciding to look at the Hebrew words behind them to see how they might differ, I can only find the statement that the Lord "slew him." The Bible doesn't appear to ever say that Saul killed himself.

It does say:
--Saul was wounded of the archers.
--Saul fell on his sword and died.




The word "slew" underlined above is the Hebrew word "muwth" (מוּת), used to mean simply death or, especially when doubled, "put to death."

Mrs. White details the scene of Saul's death as follows:



But the "self-murder" of Saul is clarified in other places. Consider carefully the following statement, picking up just after his consultation with the Witch of Endor.



Notice the past tense "destroyed" for a yet-alive man. This is significant.

Now, notice that this was the paragraph just preceding the two quoted above it in which Saul becomes guilty of "self-murder." The self-murder, then, had to do with his soul (cutting him off from the Source of life), not his body.

After Saul had thus destroyed himself, God put him to death. The Philistines had mortally wounded him, and when he saw that he would not live, could not escape, and could no longer fight--he chose to hasten his death. But he had already destroyed himself prior to his death. It is in this sense that God destroys no man. God never destroys men's characters.

Really APL why do you constantly post falsehoods???
-- I quoted the whole sentence, plus the sentences before and after three times already !!!!!!!!

cut and paste yet once again


They still attributed "the power" to satan, just because they accused Moses of using that power, does not change the fact --
The signal manifestation of God's power, they attributed to Satan.

And yes, I have read the whole chapter.
This incident happened soon after their first reaching of the boarders of the promised land -- when the ten spies totally discouraged the people that they were capable of conquering the land. They even got angry at Calab and Joshua for trying to build their faith that with God, they could take the land. So, because of their lack of faith, God told them they would stay in the wilderness for 40 years.
The resulting attitude of the people was not positive.

Those men who later lost their lives when the earth opened, began to plan a coup d'état. They were following the pattern Lucifer had set in heaven -- a very deceptive pattern of "propaganda"; planting manipulative thought so others would turn against God's authority and God's chosen commander, yet they did this while maintaining that they were holy and right and had the best interest at heart for everyone. Thus they poisoned the minds of the multitudes.

It was Korah, Dathan and Abiram, that had given themselves over to satan and were using satan's power to destroy the faith and trust of the people in the One Who was their Deliverer and Savior.

God had to step in -- if he had not, there would have been mutiny. If God had simply "withdrawn" they would have killed Moses and Aaron and everyone who sided with Moses as being God's chosen leader.

God delivered those who trusted in Him, from those who had rejected Him and were out to destroy those who trusted in God. Basically, they would have destroyed the whole plan God had in mind for the nation of Israel.

Just like at the Red Sea -- God delivered his people by opening the Red Sea to give them a way of escape from those who sought to destroy them. When, in spite of seeing the signal manifestation of God's power in parting the sea, the Egyptians in blind determination to get at those Israelites, actually entered the "dry path" through the sea. God sent angels to "trouble them" and "take off the wheels of their chariots" so they couldn't reach the Israelites. When the last Israelite was safely on the other side -- Moses lowers his staff and the water collapsed, drowning the enemy army.

Picture that in modern times --

A country is being invaded by a powerful army. These enemy soldiers are conquering everything on one side of a deep canyon. As the army approaches a village, all the villagers frantically flee. Their chief leads them to a secret swinging bridge across the canyon. Carefully they begin to cross the long, swinging bridge, only to hear the enemy thundering toward them. It is a long bridge and before they have all reached safety the enemy has also started crossing the bridge toward them. But their leaders have planted sand bombs behind the fleeing people that temporally "blind" the enemy to slow their approach. When the last villager is on the other side, they cut the rope and the enemy plunges into the canyon below.

Now the parallels and questions.

1. Did the enemy "kill themselves"?

In one way -- yes, they did -- by thinking they could use a route that was clearly provided to deliver the people FROM them they still dared to venture out on it -- their strange urgency to kill the fleeing people drove them to take what everyone would agree,was a foolish move.


2. was it wrong for Moses to lower his staff so the water would wipe out the Egyptians.
Was it wrong for the village leaders in what they did.

Is it wrong for God to stop the aggressor against truth?



Ez. 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die,

Can't figure out what you're saying.
You said:
Saul fell on his sword.
God put him to death.
--he chose to hasten his death.

Are you saying God made him fall on his sword?

Dedication,

Do you believe the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

Apparently, Ellen White believed so. For example:



And God's preference for the needs of the majority over those of the few extend to how we should treat people as well, apparently. For example:





I can't figure out what you're missing. Are you saying the Philistine archers had not mortally wounded Saul? Are you saying God could not possibly have used them to help execute His will?

Yes, you did. And summarized the statement even put it bold like this THREE TIMES By this, you are saying that they attributed God's judgments to Satan, and it was this act alone that sealed their doom. But is that what the sentence was implying? NO - the ellipses contains the key throught of the sentence which you completely discount. What sealed their doom? The accuation of Moses and Aaron throught the power of the evil one caused the doom of good and honest men. That this is what i have pointed out to you which you say I "constantly post falsehoods". Again, the sentence is accusing Moses and Aaron of using Satan's power and you in your unwillingness to see what the see what the sentence is saying completely ignore the point of the whole chapter. Read it without your prejudice. (I know, you do not think you are prejudiced)

Example - go to {PP 397.4} - Korah reviews their travel through the wilderness. He blames Moses for mismanagement and that he (Korah) could have done better, and would have been in the promised land by now. Who was leading Israel?

{PP 399.2} Dathan and Abiram accuse Moses of leading them into the wilderness to kill them there.

{PP 399.3} Moses was painted with the blackest character, a tyrant.

{PP 400.3} Moses, by divine direction, bade the people, "Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins." God via Moses was warning them to move away.

{PP 401.2} Moses was entreating Israel to flee from the coming destruction, the divine judgment might even then have been stayed, if Korah and his company had repented and sought forgiveness. But their stubborn persistence sealed their doom. The coming destruction by the power of God? Or by the withdrawl of His protection? Most as dedication say by direct action of God.

{PP 401.3} Jesus, the Angel who went before the Hebrews, sought to save them from destruction. Is this saying that Jesus was trying to save them from what He was going to do to them? Is Jesus saying, "don't make me come over there and kill you?"

{PP 402.1} It is hardly possible for men to offer greater insult to God than to despise and reject the instrumentalities He would use for their salvation. The Israelites had not only done this, but had purposed to put both Moses and Aaron to death. This is what was leading up to the doom of the people, the accusations against Moses.

{PP 402.2} "But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, ye have killed the people of the Lord." And they were about to proceed to violence against their faithful, self-sacrificing leaders.

{PP 402.5} But the minister of wrath had gone forth; the plague was doing its work of death. By his brother's direction, Aaron took a censer and hastened into the midst of the congregation to "make an atonement for them." "And he stood between the dead and the living." Who is the minister of Wrath? God?

{PP 403.3} In the rebellion of Korah is seen the working out, upon a narrower stage, of the same spirit that led to the rebellion of Satan in heaven. That should give all pause for thought! Yet while in their murmuring against Moses and Aaron they blasphemed God, they were so deluded as to think themselves righteous, and to regard those who had faithfully reproved their sins as actuated by Satan. Were Moses' actions actuated by Satan?

{PP 403.4} perverted truth, false charges, the people really believed they were doing God's service!

{PP 404.3} Every advance made by those whom God has called to lead in His work has excited suspicion; every act has been misrepresented by the jealous and faultfinding. Thus it was in the time of Luther, of the Wesleys and other reformers. Thus it is today.

{PP 404.4} Now to the paragraph in question: Korah would not have taken the course he did had he known that all the directions and reproofs communicated to Israel were from God. But he might have known this. God had given overwhelming evidence that He was leading Israel. Evidence of what? Read Deuteronomy 8! God had fed them manna. God had provided water. God had protected them against fiery serpents and scorpions! Here is manifested God's power. But Korah and his companions rejected light until they became so blinded that the most striking manifestations of His power were not sufficient to convince them; they attributed them all to human or satanic agency. Was it human or satanic? No. But then: The same thing was done by the people, who the day after the destruction of Korah and his company came to Moses and Aaron, saying, "Ye have killed the people of the Lord." Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course, in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. [that is dedication's ellipses] It was this act that sealed their doom. They had committed the sin against the Holy Spirit. Did Moses and Aaron cause any death? No!

{PP 405.1} God works by the manifestation of His Spirit to reprove and convict the sinner; and if the Spirit's work is finally rejected, there is no more that God can do for the soul. The last resource of divine mercy has been employed. The transgressor has cut himself off from God, and sin has no remedy to cure itself. There is no reserved power by which God can work to convict and convert the sinner. "Let him alone" (Hosea 4:17)

There we see it spelled out, "Let him alone.". THAT is Judgment. Now read all the chapter from what EGW writes about God's judgments, are they God actively imposing penalty on the sinner? Dedication say so when she writes:There was a mutiny happening. Did God step in? Or did God stop out? God "let him alone", and withdrew His protection from the mutinier.

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but [rather] in this way: they place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan’s decided attacks upon them. It is Satan’s power that is at work at sea and on land bringing calamity and distress, sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. Storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short, and if he is not restrained we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of. {Lt14-1883}

In this episode in Patriarchs and Prophets, do we see God warning, reproving, attempting to correct Korah and all that were in rebellion? Did Korah and the people repeatedly reject the evidence of God? What then can God do? He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attaches. It is Satan's power that sweeps off multitudes. And Paul tells us, 1 Corinthians 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. EGW: Satan is the destroyer, God is the restorer.

The people were condemned because they called God's instruments, Moses and Aaron, workers of the devil, and that Moses and Aaron caused the death of Korah.

Even more important, this is represented as committing the sin against the Holy Spirit!!! But, harden not your heart!

Hebrews 3:7-15
(7) Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
(8) Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
(9) When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
(10) Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
(11) So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
(12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
(13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
(14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
(15) While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Such bald-faced lies, are these, as to beggar all belief!


APL: "The accuation of Moses and Aaron throught the power of the evil one caused the doom of good and honest men."
APL: "Again, the sentence is accusing Moses and Aaron of using Satan's power and you in your unwillingness to see what the see what the sentence is saying completely ignore the point of the whole chapter."

Moses and Aaron made no Satanic accusation to cause "the doom of good and honest men," nor does Ellen White even hint at such a warped view!

Ellen White makes the inescapable statement that GOD (not Satan, not sin, not anything "natural") destroyed Korah et al., and that those who declare His judgments to be of Satan seal their doom by so doing. It appears APL is on thin ice over hot water, sealing his own doom in like manner. Is there any hope of helping him?

Do you think I meant to say that Moses and Aaron were the ones making the accusations? If so, you have not read all that I wrote, but pick and choose to fit your view. The accusations were against Moses and Aaron. The quote is plain to see. The FALSE accusations against Moses and Aaron are what doomed the people.

The paragraph in question does not say what you and dedication and gary would like for it say. Green - if you read the whole chapter, your view is the one on thin ice rejecting the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

If you didn't mean to say it, please be more careful what you say! Regardless of what you meant to say, it is what you did say, and you can hardly expect those who read your posts to be mind readers capable of knowing that you meant something opposite to what you actually wrote!


I'm not picking and choosing--just reading what you wrote. You would blame me for not reading your mind?



What YOU do not seem to see is what the false accusation did--they attributed to Satan the judgments of God. THAT was the "act" that sealed their doom. Ellen White makes this clear. She is spelling out their act by saying how they did it: they accused Moses and Aaron of using Satan's power to do what God had done, thus attributing to Satan the judgments of God. The accusations are one and the same as the attribution. How you choose not to see this beggars belief.