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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: Nadi] #184303
07/02/17 02:31 AM
07/02/17 02:31 AM
G
Garywk  Offline
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Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Just how much of the plan of salvation is a legal contract?

Quote:
Jesus refused to receive the homage of His people until He knew that His sacrifice had been accepted by the Father, and until He had received the assurance from God Himself that His atonement for the sins of His people had been full and ample, that through His blood they might gain eternal life. Jesus immediately ascended to heaven and presented Himself before the throne of God, showing the marks of shame and cruelty upon His brow, His hands and feet. But he refused to receive the coronet of glory, and the royal robe, and He also refused the adoration of the angels as He had refused the homage of Mary, until the Father signified that His offering was accepted.

He also had a request to prefer concerning His chosen ones upon earth. He wished to have the relation clearly defined that His redeemed should hereafter sustain to heaven, and to His Father. His church must be justified and accepted before He could accept heavenly honor. He declared it to be His will that where He was, there His church should be; if He was to have glory, His people must share it with Him. They who suffer with Him on earth must finally reign with Him in His kingdom. In the most explicit manner Christ pleaded for His church, identifying His interest with theirs, and advocating, with love and constancy stronger than death, their rights and titles gained through Him.

God’s answer to this appeal goes forth in the proclamation: “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Every angelic commander obeys the royal mandate, and Worthy, worthy is the Lamb that was slain; and that lives again a triumphant conqueror! echoes and re-echoes through all heaven. The innumerable company of angels prostrate themselves before the Redeemer. The request of Christ is granted; the church is justified through Him, its representative and head. Here the Father ratifies the contract with His Son, that He will be reconciled to repentant and obedient men, and take them into divine favor through the merits of Christ. Christ guarantees that He will make a man “more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.” All power in heaven and on earth is now given to the Prince of life; yet He does not for a moment forget His poor disciples in a sinful world, but prepares to return to them, that He may impart to them His power and glory. Thus did the Redeemer of mankind, by the sacrifice of Himself, connect earth with heaven, and finite man with the infinite God (The Spirit of Prophecy 3:202, 203).


Our justification and sanctification are both a part of the legal contract, ratified when Jesus went back to His Father after His resurrection. God contracted a legal duty to be reconciled to repentant and obedient men and women, and Christ guarantees to make those repentant and obedient people of infinite moral value.

The legal aspects of the plan of salvation run all the way through it. The legal aspect of it are impossible to remove from it without destroying it.

Quote:
As the sin bearer, and priest and representative of man before God, He [Christ] entered into the life of humanity, bearing our flesh and blood. The life is in the living, vital current of blood, which blood was given for the life of the world. Christ made a full atonement, giving His life as a ransom for us. He was born without a taint of sin, but came into the world in like manner as the human family. He did not have a mere semblance of a body, but He took human nature, participating in the life of humanity. According to the law Christ Himself gave, the forfeited inheritance was ransomed by the nearest of kin. Jesus Christ laid off His royal robe, His kingly crown, and clothed His divinity with humanity, in order to become a substitute and surety for humanity, that dying in humanity He might by His death destroy him who had the power of death. He could not have done this as God, but by coming as man Christ could die. By death He overcame death. The death of Christ bore to the death him who had the power of death, and opened the gates of the tomb for all who receive Him as their personal Saviour.—Letter 97, 1898.


Quote:
All that God and Christ could do has been done to save sinners. Transgression placed the whole world in jeopardy, under the death sentence. But in heaven there was heard a voice saying, I have found a ransom. Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, was made sin for fallen man. “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Christ gave Himself as a ransom. He laid off His royal robe. He laid aside His kingly crown, and stepped down from His high command over all heaven, clothing His divinity with humanity that He might carry all the infirmities and bear all the temptations of humanity.—Letter 22, 1900.


Quote:
On the cross of Calvary He paid the redemption price of the race. And thus He gained the right to rescue the captives from the grasp of the great deceiver, who by a lie framed against the government of God, caused the fall of man, and who thus forfeited all claim to be called a loyal subject of God’s kingdom.

Satan refused to let his captives go. He held them as his subjects because of their belief of his lie. He had thus become their jailor. But he had no right to demand that a price be paid for them; because he had not obtained possession of them by lawful conquest, but under false pretense.

God, being the creditor, had a right to make any provision for the redemption of human beings. Justice demanded that a certain price be paid. The Son of God was the only One who could pay this price. He volunteered to come to this earth and pass over the ground where Adam fell. He came as the Redeemer of the lost race, to conquer the wily foe, and by His steadfast allegiance to right, to save all who should accept Him as their
Saviour.—Letter 20, 1903.


Notice all the legal issues in these quotes. A death sentence suspended due to a ransom being found. A law given by Christ, in other words, a law of God, showing the legal foundation for substitutionary atonement. A contract between the Father and the Son ratified on Christ's return to heaven after His resurrection. God being a creditor. Justice demanding a certain price for the violation of God's laws.

All of this shows the falsity of apl's position. It also shows that God does everything within a legal framework. He actually must, for if He did not the devil would accuse Him of partiality, of injustice, and continue to slander His character even further in the minds of angels and the unfallen worlds. The plan of salvation is actually a legal plan, but it is also a plan of restoration. It is not just a one-faceted plan as apl keeps on insisting.

It is more evidence of God's infallibility and omnipotence in how God has foreseen all these delusions coming and has given us the tools to expose them through the concept of ga'al-the kinsman redeemer.

Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184305
07/02/17 02:45 AM
07/02/17 02:45 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
The transgression of the physical law is the transgression of God’s law. —The Kress Collection, pp. 45, 46. {BLJ 310.6}

As for Israel, they are an example of how to end up ultimately crucifying our God. They did not follow God's ways. God did give them laws by which they could not live. Why? To minimize the damage of their downward sinful path. Laws including for divorce and polygamy. It was because of the hardness of their hearts.

Yes, salvation is a healing process.

Jeremiah 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for you are my praise.

"Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." Matthew 6:10.

The will of God is expressed in the precepts of His holy law, and the principles of this law are the principles of heaven. The angels of heaven attain unto no higher knowledge than to know the will of God, and to do His will is the highest service that can engage their powers. {MB 109.1}

But in heaven, service is not rendered in the spirit of legality. When Satan rebelled against the law of Jehovah, the thought that there was a law came to the angels almost as an awakening to something unthought of. In their ministry the angels are not as servants, but as sons. There is perfect unity between them and their Creator. Obedience is to them no drudgery. Love for God makes their service a joy. So in every soul wherein Christ, the hope of glory, dwells, His words are re-echoed, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart."
Psalms 40:8. {MB 109.2}

Do any of us in our own power have the ability to keep the Law of God? NO. EGW even tells us that redemption and education are the same. Is that a legal process? Nope.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184306
07/02/17 02:48 AM
07/02/17 02:48 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: gary
That conclusion is pretty much disputable. When a person is pardoned for a crime everything you just stated is true for them. They have their legal rights restored. They are once again in the good graces of the lawful government. They are once again at peace with the lawful government. All of their legal issues are sent into remission. There is a healing of the relationship between them and the lawful government.
Would you be pleased to live next door to a pardoned, pedophile, murderer and rapist? Having received legal pardon, is that sufficient for you? Or would you like to have MORE information? If so, what?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: APL] #184308
07/02/17 04:24 AM
07/02/17 04:24 AM
dedication  Offline OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: gary
That conclusion is pretty much disputable. When a person is pardoned for a crime everything you just stated is true for them. They have their legal rights restored. They are once again in the good graces of the lawful government. They are once again at peace with the lawful government. All of their legal issues are sent into remission. There is a healing of the relationship between them and the lawful government.
Would you be pleased to live next door to a pardoned, pedophile, murderer and rapist? Having received legal pardon, is that sufficient for you? Or would you like to have MORE information? If so, what?

That has been answered several times --

The problem with this discussion is that you want to separate two essential aspects of salvation and pit them against each other. Basically the question doesn't make any sense as no one claims that a pardoned sinner will continue as a pardoned sinner if they cling to their sin and reject the leading of the Holy Spirit.


Paul makes it clear that the pardoned person is now to live in newness of life in Christ, putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Holy Spirit (Romans 6 and 8) and yes, the IJ does investigate to see if the pardoned person was abiding in Christ and being led by the Holy Spirit, living the sanctified life.

But the sanctified life does NOT purchase our pardon, nor does it purchase our salvation.






The "obvious" sinners and the more "invisible" sinners are alike lost without the pardon only Christ can give.
When a person comes to Christ with their burden of sin, there is pardon and by abiding in Christ there is transformation.


We don't believe in a "one time transaction" and then live as you please salvation, we believe in the IJ which investigates the authenticity of the conversion and a changed life is the evidence that the conversion was authentic-- so basically your question doesn't make sense.

Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: APL] #184309
07/02/17 04:36 AM
07/02/17 04:36 AM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted By: APL
Would you be pleased to live next door to a pardoned, pedophile, murderer and rapist? Having received legal pardon, is that sufficient for you? Or would you like to have MORE information? If so, what?


LOL. You really seem to love logical fallacies. This one is a straw man. Why can you not have an honest discussion?

Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184310
07/02/17 04:49 AM
07/02/17 04:49 AM
dedication  Offline OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
Purchased --
When we buy something we make a legal transaction:


Acts 28L20 feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.

ICor. 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Cor 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
2Peter 2:1 bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction

Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: ] #184311
07/02/17 05:41 AM
07/02/17 05:41 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: APL
Would you be pleased to live next door to a pardoned, pedophile, murderer and rapist? Having received legal pardon, is that sufficient for you? Or would you like to have MORE information? If so, what?


LOL. You really seem to love logical fallacies. This one is a straw man. Why can you not have an honest discussion?


Would you be pleased to live next door to a pardon criminal? It is a simple question. Since you will not answer, I'd bet you'd like to know more about said pardoned criminal. What you'd really like to know if that person is safe to be next door to, that they are a changed person. THAT is what you want to know. That is what goes on in the Investigative Judgment.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184312
07/02/17 05:44 AM
07/02/17 05:44 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
Purchased --
When we buy something we make a legal transaction:


Acts 28L20 feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.

ICor. 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Cor 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
2Peter 2:1 bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction


An athlete pays a price when to train for competition. They pay in time and sweat. Nothing legal about that. God gave His Son, which was a huge price to pay. It was not a legal transaction.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184313
07/02/17 05:50 AM
07/02/17 05:50 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: gary
That conclusion is pretty much disputable. When a person is pardoned for a crime everything you just stated is true for them. They have their legal rights restored. They are once again in the good graces of the lawful government. They are once again at peace with the lawful government. All of their legal issues are sent into remission. There is a healing of the relationship between them and the lawful government.
Would you be pleased to live next door to a pardoned, pedophile, murderer and rapist? Having received legal pardon, is that sufficient for you? Or would you like to have MORE information? If so, what?

That has been answered several times --

The problem with this discussion is that you want to separate two essential aspects of salvation and pit them against each other. Basically the question doesn't make any sense as no one claims that a pardoned sinner will continue as a pardoned sinner if they cling to their sin and reject the leading of the Holy Spirit.


Paul makes it clear that the pardoned person is now to live in newness of life in Christ, putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Holy Spirit (Romans 6 and 8) and yes, the IJ does investigate to see if the pardoned person was abiding in Christ and being led by the Holy Spirit, living the sanctified life.

But the sanctified life does NOT purchase our pardon, nor does it purchase our salvation.






The "obvious" sinners and the more "invisible" sinners are alike lost without the pardon only Christ can give.
When a person comes to Christ with their burden of sin, there is pardon and by abiding in Christ there is transformation.


We don't believe in a "one time transaction" and then live as you please salvation, we believe in the IJ which investigates the authenticity of the conversion and a changed life is the evidence that the conversion was authentic-- so basically your question doesn't make sense.


The LORD does not hold anything against any person. He has forgiven them all. But that does not save us. If you believe that Christ paid a legal debt, then to whom was the debt paid? To the Father? To Satan? Who demanded a legal payment? The IJ is not a legal process, but and investigation into the person that they are indeed changed and are safe to have around.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184314
07/02/17 06:03 AM
07/02/17 06:03 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

Do you agree with the following statement?

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26. {DA 762.2}


If so, how is it that Christ met the claims of the law? Do you believe His sacrifice bypassed the law, sidestepped it, or went somehow beyond its boundaries so as not to involve the law at all? How would you explain such a reasoning, if so, to someone else?

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The divine law requires us to love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves. Without the exercise of this love, the highest profession of faith is mere hypocrisy. . . . {NL 32.1}
Obedience to the law is essential, not only to our salvation, but to our own happiness and the happiness of all with whom we are connected. "Great peace have they which love Thy law: and nothing shall offend them" (Psalm 119:165), says the Inspired Word. Yet finite man will present to the people this holy, just, and good law, this law of liberty, which the Creator Himself has adapted to the wants of man, as a yoke of bondage, a yoke which no man can bear. But it is the sinner who regards the law as a grievous yoke; it is the transgressor that can see no beauty in its precepts. For the carnal mind "is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Romans 8:7). . . . {NL 32.2}


It would appear to me that you are one who regards God's law as a problem. You seek to avoid it. You suppose salvation must have nothing to do with it--for it is offensive, ugly, or "a yoke which no man can bear."

But the truth is that the law is beautiful, and is itself a part of our wonderful salvation. May God open your eyes to see it.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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