And here is where I differ from dedication - in her description, she adds the term "forensic", as if salvation is a legal process. Salvation is much more than that. Salvation is a healing process, and Christ's ministry is not a judicial process. Also, the penalty for a legal process is an imposed penalty while the penalty of sin is intrinsic. Sin kills, not God. Sinners will perish, but not by execution.

Those who come to Christ and look to Him for their salvation are changed -- call it healed, transformed, made new, born again -- salvation in Christ changes our hearts and minds, yes that is true -- I fully agree!

However, the judgment is also a legal "forensic" activity. When the court is seated and the books are opened and the names are presented before the Father and the angels--- (Dan. 7:9,10,14, Rev. 3:5)When either our sins are blotted out or our names (Rev. 3:5) --- a final decision is made (Rev. 22:11) -- and that is a "forensic" or legal action, based on our response to the greater aspect of salvation.

I think you are both right, just saying it in different words!

I disagree Wanderer.

The information from dedication is completely correct, whereas, the information from APL is only partially correct.

Salvation has a very serious legal application to it. Calvary was taught in the earthly sanctuary through the alter of burned offerings. We see multiple processes being fulfilled in the ministry of Christ and His death and resurrection.

It is the "ministry of healing", not the "ministry of Jurisprudence". Living next to a pardon criminal does not give one comfort unless you know that the person is changed, transformed. Physicians make judgments every day, but they are not "legal" judgments. They are judgments that assess a situation as it really is.

Isn't that why there is an Investigative Judgment -- there is no need to worry about living next to a pardoned criminal because only those sinners (and we are all sinners and have come short of the glory of God) who have been both pardoned and "born again" in Christ, renewed in heart and mind by the Holy Spirit, who will have their names retained in the book of life.

We are all sinners -- that includes you APL, as well as me.
I definitely need pardon for my sins, as well as cleansing and healing and overcoming by the blood of the Lamb.
Don't you desire pardon for your sins? Your sins will stand against you in that judgment, no matter how good you might become, if you don't seek and believe in that pardon which only Christ can give you.

Son is not a "legal" problem. We need "cleansing" from sin. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The word translated "forgive" in this verse is aphiemi, which is the idea of causing something to go into remission. Much like making cancer go into remission. A person with cancer does not need a "legal" solution to their problem, they need a real solution.

In the investigative judgment, God is as much if not more on trial than the saved sinners. God is showing His case that the righteous are safe to save, safe to be in heaven. They are not legally let off the hook but are actually a new creature, cleansed of all unrighteousness.

Yeah, when living under a government with laws breaking the law of that government is never a legal problem. Where do you come up with such nonsense?

Gary - is violating the law of gravity or respiration a legal problem? These laws govern life. Sin is not a legal problem. Violation of natures laws have intrinsic consequences. The same with sin. The penalty of sin is not an imposed execution, but and intrinsic consequence. Human governments rule by imposed laws with imposed consequences. Many of these laws may have good intentions. But they are arbitrary. A speed limit of 55 MPH instead of 45 MPH may have good reasons, but such a law is still arbitrary. God's government is not like the governments of this world. Wanting to be like the world was a big part of Israel's downfall.

Would you gary k be pleased to live next door to a pardoned mass murder and pedophile? Would you be satisfied with a legal pardon? Or is there something more you'd like to know about that person?

And here is where I differ from dedication - in her description, she adds the term "forensic", as if salvation is a legal process. Salvation is much more than that. Salvation is a healing process, and Christ's ministry is not a judicial process. Also, the penalty for a legal process is an imposed penalty while the penalty of sin is intrinsic. Sin kills, not God. Sinners will perish, but not by execution.

Those who come to Christ and look to Him for their salvation are changed -- call it healed, transformed, made new, born again -- salvation in Christ changes our hearts and minds, yes that is true -- I fully agree!

However, the judgment is also a legal "forensic" activity. When the court is seated and the books are opened and the names are presented before the Father and the angels--- (Dan. 7:9,10,14, Rev. 3:5)When either our sins are blotted out or our names (Rev. 3:5) --- a final decision is made (Rev. 22:11) -- and that is a "forensic" or legal action, based on our response to the greater aspect of salvation.

I think you are both right, just saying it in different words!

I disagree Wanderer.

The information from dedication is completely correct, whereas, the information from APL is only partially correct.

Salvation has a very serious legal application to it. Calvary was taught in the earthly sanctuary through the alter of burned offerings. We see multiple processes being fulfilled in the ministry of Christ and His death and resurrection.

It is the "ministry of healing", not the "ministry of Jurisprudence". Living next to a pardon criminal does not give one comfort unless you know that the person is changed, transformed. Physicians make judgments every day, but they are not "legal" judgments. They are judgments that assess a situation as it really is.

Isn't that why there is an Investigative Judgment -- there is no need to worry about living next to a pardoned criminal because only those sinners (and we are all sinners and have come short of the glory of God) who have been both pardoned and "born again" in Christ, renewed in heart and mind by the Holy Spirit, who will have their names retained in the book of life.

We are all sinners -- that includes you APL, as well as me.
I definitely need pardon for my sins, as well as cleansing and healing and overcoming by the blood of the Lamb.
Don't you desire pardon for your sins? Your sins will stand against you in that judgment, no matter how good you might become, if you don't seek and believe in that pardon which only Christ can give you.

Son is not a "legal" problem. We need "cleansing" from sin. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The word translated "forgive" in this verse is aphiemi, which is the idea of causing something to go into remission. Much like making cancer go into remission. A person with cancer does not need a "legal" solution to their problem, they need a real solution.

In the investigative judgment, God is as much if not more on trial than the saved sinners. God is showing His case that the righteous are safe to save, safe to be in heaven. They are not legally let off the hook but are actually a new creature, cleansed of all unrighteousness.

Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government. {GC 492.2}

There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. {DA 172.1}

Yeah, when living under a government with laws breaking the law of that government is never a legal problem. Where do you come up with such nonsense?

Gary - is violating the law of gravity or respiration a legal problem? These laws govern life. Sin is not a legal problem. Violation of natures laws have intrinsic consequences. The same with sin. The penalty of sin is not an imposed execution, but and intrinsic consequence. Human governments rule by imposed laws with imposed consequences. Many of these laws may have good intentions. But they are arbitrary. A speed limit of 55 MPH instead of 45 MPH may have good reasons, but such a law is still arbitrary. God's government is not like the governments of this world. Wanting to be like the world was a big part of Israel's downfall.

Would you gary k be pleased to live next door to a pardoned mass murder and pedophile? Would you be satisfied with a legal pardon? Or is there something more you'd like to know about that person?

It is as truly a sin to violate the laws of our being as it is to break the ten commandments. To do either is to break God's laws. Those who transgress the law of God in their physical organism, will be inclined to violate the law of God spoken from Sinai. {CTBH 53.1}

The problem with this discussion is that some want to separate two essential aspects of salvation (the need to have our sins forgiven, and the need for our hearts and minds to be brought in tune with God's righteous ways) and pit them against each other.

While the truth is that both are essential.

In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. When men broke the law of God, and defied His will, Satan exulted. It was proved, he declared, that the law could not be obeyed; man could not be forgiven. Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God's favor. God could not be just, he urged, and yet show mercy to the sinner. {DA 761.4}

Whenever men choose their own way, they place themselves in controversy with God. They will have no place in the kingdom of heaven, for they are at war with the very principles of heaven. In disregarding the will of God, they are placing themselves on the side of Satan, the enemy of God and man. Not by one word, not by many words, but by every word that God has spoken, shall man live. We cannot disregard one word, however trifling it may seem to us, and be safe. There is not a commandment of the law that is not for the good and happiness of man, both in this life and in the life to come. In obedience to God's law, man is surrounded as with a hedge and kept from the evil. He who breaks down this divinely erected barrier at one point has destroyed its power to protect him; for he has opened a way by which the enemy can enter to waste and ruin. {MB 52.1}

By venturing to disregard the will of God upon one point, our first parents opened the floodgates of woe upon the world. And every individual who follows their example will reap a similar result. The love of God underlies every precept of His law, and he who departs from the commandment is working his own unhappiness and ruin. {MB 52.2}

And here is where I differ from dedication - in her description, she adds the term "forensic", as if salvation is a legal process. Salvation is much more than that.

The word in Daniel 8:14 is
(#6663) “ntsadaq” from "tsadaq" which has a forensic meaning of “justify, vindicate, clear, made righteousness, cleanse" .
Forensic means it is connected with or used in courts of law.

IJohn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

1677 ellogeo el-log-eh'-o from 1722 and 3056 (in the sense of account); to reckon in, i.e. attribute:--impute, put on account. see GREEK for 1722 see GREEK for 3056

Psalm 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

6588 pesha` peh'-shah from 6586; a revolt (national, moral or religious):--rebellion, sin, transgression, trespass. see HEBREW for 06586

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Rebellion Re*bel"lion (r[-e]*b[e^]l"y[u^]n), n. [F.
r['e]bellion, L. rebellio. See Rebel, v. i. Among the
Romans rebellion was originally a revolt or open resistance
to their government by nations that had been subdued in war.
It was a renewed war.]
1. The act of rebelling; open and avowed renunciation of the
authority of the government to which one owes obedience,
and resistance to its officers and laws, either by levying
war, or by aiding others to do so; an organized uprising
of subjects for the purpose of coercing or overthrowing
their lawful ruler or government by force; revolt;
insurrection.

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

The problem with this discussion is that some want to separate two essential aspects of salvation (the need to have our sins forgiven, and the need for our hearts and minds to be brought in tune with God's righteous ways) and pit them against each other.

While the truth is that both are essential.

Salvation IS a legal process.

The program is that some do not understand "forgiveness" and treat it like a legal issue. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The word translated "forgive" is Aphiemi, which has to do with the offender rather than the offended. It is a sending away, a causing to go into remission in the offender. It is not legal issue.

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

2919 krino kree'-no properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

2613 katadikazo kat-ad-ik-ad'-zo from 2596 and a derivative of 1349; to adjudge against, i.e. pronounce guilty:--condemn. see GREEK for 2596 see GREEK for 1349

630 apoluo ap-ol-oo'-o from 575 and 3089; to free fully, i.e. (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively, depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon or (specially) divorce:--(let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty. see GREEK for 575 see GREEK for 3089

Salvation is a HEALING process, not a legal process.

God's LAW is a design law, not a legal law. Just as gravity is not a legal law. The laws of nature are just as much God's law as the moral law. And as such, the penalty of transgression of the law is INTRINSIC, not imposed.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Jesus refused to receive the homage of His people until He knew that His sacrifice had been accepted by the Father, and until He had received the assurance from God Himself that His atonement for the sins of His people had been full and ample, that through His blood they might gain eternal life. Jesus immediately ascended to heaven and presented Himself before the throne of God, showing the marks of shame and cruelty upon His brow, His hands and feet. But he refused to receive the coronet of glory, and the royal robe, and He also refused the adoration of the angels as He had refused the homage of Mary, until the Father signified that His offering was accepted.

He also had a request to prefer concerning His chosen ones upon earth. He wished to have the relation clearly defined that His redeemed should hereafter sustain to heaven, and to His Father. His church must be justified and accepted before He could accept heavenly honor. He declared it to be His will that where He was, there His church should be; if He was to have glory, His people must share it with Him. They who suffer with Him on earth must finally reign with Him in His kingdom. In the most explicit manner Christ pleaded for His church, identifying His interest with theirs, and advocating, with love and constancy stronger than death, their rights and titles gained through Him.

God’s answer to this appeal goes forth in the proclamation: “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Every angelic commander obeys the royal mandate, and Worthy, worthy is the Lamb that was slain; and that lives again a triumphant conqueror! echoes and re-echoes through all heaven. The innumerable company of angels prostrate themselves before the Redeemer. The request of Christ is granted; the church is justified through Him, its representative and head. Here the Father ratifies the contract with His Son, that He will be reconciled to repentant and obedient men, and take them into divine favor through the merits of Christ. Christ guarantees that He will make a man “more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.” All power in heaven and on earth is now given to the Prince of life; yet He does not for a moment forget His poor disciples in a sinful world, but prepares to return to them, that He may impart to them His power and glory. Thus did the Redeemer of mankind, by the sacrifice of Himself, connect earth with heaven, and finite man with the infinite God (The Spirit of Prophecy 3:202, 203).

As the sin bearer, and priest and representative of man before God, He [Christ] entered into the life of humanity, bearing our flesh and blood. The life is in the living, vital current of blood, which blood was given for the life of the world. Christ made a full atonement, giving His life as a ransom for us. He was born without a taint of sin, but came into the world in like manner as the human family. He did not have a mere semblance of a body, but He took human nature, participating in the life of humanity. According to the law Christ Himself gave, the forfeited inheritance was ransomed by the nearest of kin. Jesus Christ laid off His royal robe, His kingly crown, and clothed His divinity with humanity, in order to become a substitute and surety for humanity, that dying in humanity He might by His death destroy him who had the power of death. He could not have done this as God, but by coming as man Christ could die. By death He overcame death. The death of Christ bore to the death him who had the power of death, and opened the gates of the tomb for all who receive Him as their personal Saviour.—Letter 97, 1898.

All that God and Christ could do has been done to save sinners. Transgression placed the whole world in jeopardy, under the death sentence. But in heaven there was heard a voice saying, I have found a ransom. Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, was made sin for fallen man. “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Christ gave Himself as a ransom. He laid off His royal robe. He laid aside His kingly crown, and stepped down from His high command over all heaven, clothing His divinity with humanity that He might carry all the infirmities and bear all the temptations of humanity.—Letter 22, 1900.

On the cross of Calvary He paid the redemption price of the race. And thus He gained the right to rescue the captives from the grasp of the great deceiver, who by a lie framed against the government of God, caused the fall of man, and who thus forfeited all claim to be called a loyal subject of God’s kingdom.

Satan refused to let his captives go. He held them as his subjects because of their belief of his lie. He had thus become their jailor. But he had no right to demand that a price be paid for them; because he had not obtained possession of them by lawful conquest, but under false pretense.

God, being the creditor, had a right to make any provision for the redemption of human beings. Justice demanded that a certain price be paid. The Son of God was the only One who could pay this price. He volunteered to come to this earth and pass over the ground where Adam fell. He came as the Redeemer of the lost race, to conquer the wily foe, and by His steadfast allegiance to right, to save all who should accept Him as their
Saviour.—Letter 20, 1903.

That conclusion is pretty much disputable. When a person is pardoned for a crime everything you just stated is true for them. They have their legal rights restored. They are once again in the good graces of the lawful government. They are once again at peace with the lawful government. All of their legal issues are sent into remission. There is a healing of the relationship between them and the lawful government.

Would you be pleased to live next door to a pardoned, pedophile, murderer and rapist? Having received legal pardon, is that sufficient for you? Or would you like to have MORE information? If so, what?

Would you be pleased to live next door to a pardoned, pedophile, murderer and rapist? Having received legal pardon, is that sufficient for you? Or would you like to have MORE information? If so, what?

LOL. You really seem to love logical fallacies. This one is a straw man. Why can you not have an honest discussion?

Purchased --
When we buy something we make a legal transaction:


Acts 28L20 feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.

ICor. 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Cor 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
2Peter 2:1 bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction

That has been answered several times --

The problem with this discussion is that you want to separate two essential aspects of salvation and pit them against each other. Basically the question doesn't make any sense as no one claims that a pardoned sinner will continue as a pardoned sinner if they cling to their sin and reject the leading of the Holy Spirit.


Paul makes it clear that the pardoned person is now to live in newness of life in Christ, putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Holy Spirit (Romans 6 and 8) and yes, the IJ does investigate to see if the pardoned person was abiding in Christ and being led by the Holy Spirit, living the sanctified life.

But the sanctified life does NOT purchase our pardon, nor does it purchase our salvation.






The "obvious" sinners and the more "invisible" sinners are alike lost without the pardon only Christ can give.
When a person comes to Christ with their burden of sin, there is pardon and by abiding in Christ there is transformation.


We don't believe in a "one time transaction" and then live as you please salvation, we believe in the IJ which investigates the authenticity of the conversion and a changed life is the evidence that the conversion was authentic-- so basically your question doesn't make sense.

The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26. {DA 762.2}

The divine law requires us to love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves. Without the exercise of this love, the highest profession of faith is mere hypocrisy. . . . {NL 32.1}
Obedience to the law is essential, not only to our salvation, but to our own happiness and the happiness of all with whom we are connected. "Great peace have they which love Thy law: and nothing shall offend them" (Psalm 119:165), says the Inspired Word. Yet finite man will present to the people this holy, just, and good law, this law of liberty, which the Creator Himself has adapted to the wants of man, as a yoke of bondage, a yoke which no man can bear. But it is the sinner who regards the law as a grievous yoke; it is the transgressor that can see no beauty in its precepts. For the carnal mind "is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Romans 8:7). . . . {NL 32.2}

That conclusion is pretty much disputable. When a person is pardoned for a crime everything you just stated is true for them. They have their legal rights restored. They are once again in the good graces of the lawful government. They are once again at peace with the lawful government. All of their legal issues are sent into remission. There is a healing of the relationship between them and the lawful government.

In other words, the meaning of the word applies just as much to legal issues as it does to relationship issues.

This is what you do on many subjects. You grasp onto one detail and ignore all evidence to the contrary. And Luke 6:37 is at odds with your point of view. In it the are the terms: judge, condemn and forgive. Each and every instance is a legal term.



Judge:


condemn:


forgive:


You do the same violence to scripture that Sequira does. He ignores vast areas of scripture that contradict what he says. He redefines words to mean only what he wants them to mean--private interpretation. You do exactly the same.

The transgression of the physical law is the transgression of God’s law. —The Kress Collection, pp. 45, 46. {BLJ 310.6}

As for Israel, they are an example of how to end up ultimately crucifying our God. They did not follow God's ways. God did give them laws by which they could not live. Why? To minimize the damage of their downward sinful path. Laws including for divorce and polygamy. It was because of the hardness of their hearts.

Yes, salvation is a healing process.

Jeremiah 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for you are my praise.

"Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." Matthew 6:10.

The will of God is expressed in the precepts of His holy law, and the principles of this law are the principles of heaven. The angels of heaven attain unto no higher knowledge than to know the will of God, and to do His will is the highest service that can engage their powers. {MB 109.1}

But in heaven, service is not rendered in the spirit of legality. When Satan rebelled against the law of Jehovah, the thought that there was a law came to the angels almost as an awakening to something unthought of. In their ministry the angels are not as servants, but as sons. There is perfect unity between them and their Creator. Obedience is to them no drudgery. Love for God makes their service a joy. So in every soul wherein Christ, the hope of glory, dwells, His words are re-echoed, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalms 40:8. {MB 109.2}

Do any of us in our own power have the ability to keep the Law of God? NO. EGW even tells us that redemption and education are the same. Is that a legal process? Nope.

You did not address 1 John 1:9 and the word Aphiemi. Are you saying I am wrong on that? If so you did not address it in your post.

The program is that some do not understand "forgiveness" and treat it like a legal issue. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The word translated "forgive" is Aphiemi, which has to do with the offender rather than the offended. It is a sending away, a causing to go into remission in the offender. It is not legal issue.

That conclusion is pretty much disputable. When a person is pardoned for a crime everything you just stated is true for them. They have their legal rights restored. They are once again in the good graces of the lawful government. They are once again at peace with the lawful government. All of their legal issues are sent into remission. There is a healing of the relationship between them and the lawful government.

In other words, the meaning of the word applies just as much to legal issues as it does to relationship issues.

This is what you do on many subjects. You grasp onto one detail and ignore all evidence to the contrary. And Luke 6:37 is at odds with your point of view. In it the are the terms: judge, condemn and forgive. Each and every instance is a legal term.



Judge:


condemn:


forgive:


You do the same violence to scripture that Sequira does. He ignores vast areas of scripture that contradict what he says. He redefines words to mean only what he wants them to mean--private interpretation. You do exactly the same.

Your response that I bolded above is so ludicrous I don't really know what to say. You're either an outright shameless liar or you have the biggest reading comprehension problem of anyone I have ever run across.

Um - I do not see in your post where you address the word Aphiemi. Perhaps you can enlighten my reading comprehension. But if you did not address it, then I will accept your apology.

It is not a legal process as God does not hold anything legally against us. In that respect, he is forgiveness personified. But that does not save us. It is the healing process that saves us. Jeremiah 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for you are my praise.

So Good News - you are legally off the hook!!! Great, now move on to the important things.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The word translated "forgive" is Aphiemi, which has to do with the offender rather than the offended. It is a sending away, a causing to go into remission in the offender. It is not legal issue.

NOTE - there definately several terms that are translated forgive. There is the term that means not holding something against another. We humans do that all the time. But not God. In 1 John 1:9, the term translated forgive is not speaking of the offended, but the offender. It is causing the offender's sin to remit, go into remission, to send it away. And following Hebrew parallelism, the second have the verse re-emphasizes that fact. It is not a legal process as God does not hold anything legally against us. In that respect, he is forgiveness personified. But that does not save us. It is the healing process that saves us. Jeremiah 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for you are my praise.

So Good News - you are legally off the hook!!! Great, now move on to the important things.

The Lord is our Creator, and we are his children, subject to his rule. God’s method of government is an example of how parents are to train their children. There is no oppression in the Lord’s service, and there is to be no oppression in the home. Parents and guardians are to treat those under their care even as God treats his earthly children, with kindness and love. {RH April 21, 1904, par. 20}

The law of God existed before man was created. The angels were governed by it. Satan fell because he transgressed the principles of God’s government. After Adam and Eve were created, God made known to them his law. It was not then written, but was rehearsed to them by Jehovah. {ST June 10, 1880, par. 7}
The Sabbath of the fourth commandment was instituted in Eden. The principles embodied in the decalogue existed before the fall, and were suited to the condition of holy beings. After the fall, these principles were not changed, nothing was taken from the law of God, but additional precepts were given to meet man in his fallen state. {ST June 10, 1880, par. 8}
A system of sacrifices was then established, to keep before the fallen race that which the serpent made Eve disbelieve, that the penalty of disobedience is death. The transgression of God’s law made it necessary for Christ to die as a sacrifice; for only thus could he redeem man from the penalty of the broken law, and yet maintain the honor of the divine government. The sacrificial system was designed to teach man humility, in view of his fallen condition, and to lead him to repentance toward God and faith in the promised Redeemer for pardon of past transgressions. Had the law of God never been transgressed, there would have been no death, and hence no need of additional precepts to suit man’s fallen condition. {ST June 10, 1880, par. 9}

All that God and Christ could do has been done to save sinners. Transgression placed the whole world in jeopardy, under the death sentence. But in heaven there was heard a voice saying, I have found a ransom. Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, was made sin for fallen man. “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Christ gave Himself as a ransom. He laid off His royal robe. He laid aside His kingly crown, and stepped down from His high command over all heaven, clothing His divinity with humanity that He might carry all the infirmities and bear all the temptations of humanity.—Letter 22, 1900.

Of Christ’s relation to His people, there is a beautiful illustration in the laws given to Israel. When through poverty a Hebrew had been forced to part with his patrimony, and to sell himself as a bond servant, the duty of redeeming him and his inheritance fell to the one who was nearest of kin. See Leviticus 25:25, 47-49; Ruth 2:20. So the work of redeeming us and our inheritance, lost through sin, fell upon Him who is “near of kin” unto us. It was to redeem us that He became our kinsman. Closer than father, mother, brother, friend, or lover is the Lord our Saviour. “Fear not,” He says, “for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art Mine.” “Since thou wast precious in My sight, thou hast been honorable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.” Isaiah 43:1, 4. Desire of Ages p. 327

Through type and promise God “preached before the gospel unto Abraham.” Galatians 3:8. And the patriarch’s faith was fixed upon the Redeemer to come. Said Christ to the Jews. “Your father Abraham rejoiced that he should see My day; and he saw it, and was glad.” John 8:56, R.V., margin. The ram offered in the place of Isaac represented the Son of God, who was to be sacrificed in our stead. When man was doomed to death by transgression of the law of God, the Father, looking upon his Son, said to the sinner, “Live: I have found a ransom.” Patriarchs and Prophets p. 154

Let me give a little lesson in "comprehension"

APL wrote:

Gary answered that post: (his words are in color)
That conclusion is pretty much disputable.
What conclusion is Gary referring to? The comprehensive reader goes back to APL's conclusion of the meaning of the word "Aphiemi"!

When a person is pardoned for a crime everything you just stated is true for them. They have their legal rights restored. They are once again in the good graces of the lawful government. They are once again at peace with the lawful government. All of their legal issues are sent into remission. There is a healing of the relationship between them and the lawful government.

In other words, the meaning of the word applies just as much to legal issues as it does to relationship issues.

What word is Gary referring to?
The comprehensive reader comprehends that "the word" under discussion is the word "Aphiemi".

Human minds vary. The minds of different education and thought receive different impressions of the same words, and it is difficult for one mind to give to one of a different temperament, education, and habits of thought by language exactly the same idea as that which is clear and distinct in his own mind. Yet to honest men, right-minded men, he can be so simple and plain as to convey his meaning for all practical purposes. If the man he communicates with is not honest and will not want to see and understand the truth, he will turn his words and language in everything to suit his own purposes. He will misconstrue his words, play upon his imagination, wrest them from their true meaning, and then entrench himself in unbelief, claiming that the sentiments are all wrong. {1SM 19.1}

This is the way my writings are treated by those who wish to misunderstand and pervert them. They turn the truth of God into a lie. In the very same way that they treat the writings in my published articles and in my books, so do skeptics and infidels treat the Bible. They read it according to their desire to pervert, to misapply, to willfully wrest the utterances from their true meaning. They declare that the Bible can prove anything and everything, that every sect proves their doctrines right, and that the most diverse doctrines are proved from the Bible. {1SM 19.2}

The writers of the Bible had to express their ideas in human language. It was written by human men. These men were inspired of the Holy Spirit. Because of the imperfections of human understanding of language, or the perversity of the human mind, ingenious in evading truth, many read and understand the Bible to please themselves. It is not that the difficulty is in the Bible. Opposing politicians argue points of law in the statute book, and take opposite views in their application and in these laws. {1SM 19.3}

The Scriptures were given to men, not in a continuous chain of unbroken utterances, but piece by piece through successive generations, as God in His providence saw a fitting opportunity to impress man at sundry times and divers places. Men wrote as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost. There is "first the bud, then the blossom, and next the fruit," "first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear." This is exactly what the Bible utterances are to us. {1SM 19.4}

There is not always perfect order or apparent unity in the Scriptures. The miracles of Christ are not given in exact order, but are given just as the circumstances occurred, which called for this divine revealing of the power of Christ. The truths of the Bible are as pearls hidden. They must be searched, dug out by painstaking effort. Those who take only a surface view of the Scriptures will, with their superficial knowledge, which they think is very deep, talk of the contradictions of the Bible, and question the authority of the Scriptures. But those whose hearts are in harmony with truth and duty will search the Scriptures with a heart prepared to receive divine impressions. The illuminated soul sees a spiritual unity, one grand golden thread running through the whole, but it requires patience, thought, and prayer to trace out the precious golden thread. Sharp contentions over the Bible have led to investigation and revealed the precious jewels of truth. Many tears have been shed, many prayers offered, that the Lord would open the understanding to His Word. {1SM 20.1}

The Bible is not given to us in grand superhuman language. Jesus, in order to reach man where he is, took humanity. The Bible must be given in the language of men. Everything that is human is imperfect. Different meanings are expressed by the same word; there is not one word for each distinct idea. The Bible was given for practical purposes. {1SM 20.2}

The stamps of minds are different. All do not understand expressions and statements alike. Some understand the statements of the Scriptures to suit their own particular minds and cases. Prepossessions, prejudices, and passions have a strong influence to darken the understanding and confuse the mind even in reading the words of Holy Writ. {1SM 20.3}

And when you look at the trust of the work, sending away, remitting, removing, leaving, putting away, etc. And 1 John 1:9 in that context is not legal, but healing. But again, GOOD NEWS - God does not hold anything against anyone. But that is not going to save you.

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Pardon Par"don (p[aum]r"d'n), n. [F., fr. pardonner to pardon.
See Pardon, v. t.]
1. The act of pardoning; forgiveness, as of an offender, or
of an offense; release from penalty; remission of
punishment; absolution.
[1913 Webster]

Pardon, my lord, for me and for my tidings. --Shak.
[1913 Webster]

But infinite in pardon was my judge. --Milton.
[1913 Webster]

Usage: Used in expressing courteous denial or contradiction;
as, I beg your pardon; or in indicating that one has
not understood another; as, I beg pardon; or pardon
me?.
[1913 Webster +PJC]

2. An official warrant of remission of penalty.
[1913 Webster]

Sign me a present pardon for my brother. --Shak.
[1913 Webster]

3. The state of being forgiven. --South.
[1913 Webster]

4. (Law) A release, by a sovereign, or officer having
jurisdiction, from the penalties of an offense, being
distinguished from amnesty, which is a general
obliteration and canceling of a particular line of past
offenses.
[1913 Webster]

Syn: Forgiveness; remission. See Forgiveness.
[1913 Webster]


The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Pardon Par"don, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Pardoned (p[aum]r"d'nd);
p. pr. & vb. n. Pardoning.] [Either fr. pardon, n., or from
F. pardonner, LL. perdonare; L. per through, thoroughly,
perfectly + donare to give, to present. See Par-, and
Donation.]
1. To absolve from the consequences of a fault or the
punishment of crime; to free from penalty; -- applied to
the offender.
[1913 Webster]

In this thing the Lord pardon thy servant. --2 Kings
v. 18.
[1913 Webster]

I pray you, pardon me; pray heartily, pardon me.
--Shak.
[1913 Webster]

2. To remit the penalty of; to suffer to pass without
punishment; to forgive; -- applied to offenses.
[1913 Webster]

I pray thee, pardon my sin. --1 Sam. xv.
25.
[1913 Webster]

Apollo, pardon
My great profaneness 'gainst thine oracle! --Shak.
[1913 Webster]

3. To refrain from exacting as a penalty.
[1913 Webster]

I pardon thee thy life before thou ask it. --Shak.
[1913 Webster]

4. To give leave (of departure) to. [Obs.]
[1913 Webster]

Even now about it! I will pardon you. --Shak.
[1913 Webster]

Pardon me, forgive me; excuse me; -- a phrase used also to
express courteous denial or contradiction, or to request
forgiveness for a mild transgression, such as bumping a
person while passing.
[1913 Webster +PJC]

Syn: To forgive; absolve; excuse; overlook; remit; acquit.
See Excuse.
[1913 Webster]


WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) (wn)
pardon
n 1: the act of excusing a mistake or offense [syn:
forgiveness, pardon]
2: a warrant granting release from punishment for an offense
[syn: pardon, amnesty]
3: the formal act of liberating someone [syn: amnesty,
pardon, free pardon]
v 1: accept an excuse for; "Please excuse my dirty hands" [syn:
excuse, pardon]
2: grant a pardon to; "Ford pardoned Nixon"; "The Thanksgiving
turkey was pardoned by the President"


Moby Thesaurus II by Grady Ward, 1.0 (moby-thesaurus)
110 Moby Thesaurus words for "pardon":
absolution, absolve, accept, acquit, acquittal, acquittance, allow,
allowance, amnesty, benevolence, clear, clearance, clearing,
clemency, commiseration, compassion, compurgation, condolence,
condonation, condone, decontaminate, destigmatization,
destigmatize, destigmatizing, discharge, disculpation, dismiss,
dismissal, dispense from, exculpate, exculpation, excusal, excuse,
exempt, exempt from, exemption, exonerate, exoneration, favor,
feeling, forbear, forbearance, forgive, forgiveness, forgiving,
free, give absolution, give quarter, grace, grant amnesty to,
grant forgiveness, grant immunity, grant remission,
have mercy upon, have pity, humanity, immunity, indemnification,
indemnity, indulge, indulgence, justification, justify, kindness,
leniency, let go, let off, let up on, liberate, melt, mercy,
mitigation, nonpros, overlook, overlooking, pathos, pity,
purgation, purge, purging, quarter, quash the charge, quietus,
quittance, redemption, relax, release, relent, relief, remission,
remission of sin, remit, reprieve, ruth, self-pity, set free,
shrift, shrive, small-town, spare, sparing, sympathy, take pity on,
thaw, tolerate, verdict of acquittal, vindicate, vindication,
whitewash, withdraw the charge




Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary (easton)
Pardon
the forgiveness of sins granted freely (Isa. 43:25), readily
(Neh. 9:17; Ps. 86:5), abundantly (Isa. 55:7; Rom. 5:20). Pardon
is an act of a sovereign, in pure sovereignty, granting simply a
remission of the penalty due to sin, but securing neither honour
nor reward to the pardoned. Justification (q.v.), on the other
hand, is the act of a judge, and not of a sovereign, and
includes pardon and, at the same time, a title to all the
rewards and blessings promised in the covenant of life.



Bouvier's Law Dictionary, Revised 6th Ed (1856) (bouvier)
PARDON, crim. law, pleading. A pardon is an act of grace, proceeding from
the power entrusted with the execution of the laws, which exempts the
individual on whom it is bestowed, from the punishment the law inflicts for
a crime he has committed. 7 Pet. S. C. Rep. 160.
2. Every pardon granted to the guilty is in derogation of the law; if
the pardon be equitable, the law is, bad; for where legislation and the
administration of the law are perfect, pardons must be a violation of the
law, But as human actions are necessarily imperfect, the pardoning power
must be vested somewhere in order to prevent injustice, when it is
ascertained that an error has been committed.
3. The subject will be considered with regard, 1. To the kinds of
pardons. 2. By whom they are to be granted. 3. For what offences. 4. How to
be taken advantage of 5. Their effect.
4.-Sec. 1, Pardons are general or special. 1. The former are express,
when an act of the legislature is passed expressly directing that offences
of a certain class; shall be pardoned, as in the case of an act of amnesty.
See Amnesty. A general pardon is implied by the repeal of a penal statute,
because, unless otherwise provided by law, an offence against such statute
while it was in force cannot be punished, and the offender goes free. 2
Overt. 423. 2. Special pardons are those which are granted by the pardoning
power for particular cases.
5. Pardons are also divided into absolute and conditional. The former
are those which free the criminal without any condition whatever; the.
fatter are those to which a condition is annexed, which must be performed
before the pardon can have any effect. Bac. Ab. Pardon, E; 2 Caines, R. 57;
1 Bailey, 283; 2 Bailey 516. But see 4 Call, R. 85.
6.-Sec. 2. The constitution of the United States gives to the,
president in general terms, "the power to grant reprieves and pardons for
offences against the United States." The same power is given generally to
the governors of the several states to grant pardons for crimes committed
against their respective states, but in some of them the consent of the
legislature or one of its branches is required.
7.-Sec. 3. Except in the case of impeachment, for which a pardon
cannot be granted, the pardoning power may grant a pardon of all offences
against the government, and for any sentence or judgment. But such a pardon
does not operate to discharge the interest which third persons may have
acquired in the judgment; as, where a penalty was incurred in violation of
the embargo laws, and the custom house officers became entitled to one-half
of the penalty, the pardon did not discharge that. 4 Wash. C.C.R. 64. See 2
Bay, 565; 2 Whart. 440; 7 J. J. Marsh. 131.
8.-Sec. 4. When the pardon is general, either by an act of amnesty,
or by the repeal of a penal law, it is not necessary to plead it, because
the court is bound, ex officio, to take notice of it. And the criminal
cannot even waive such pardon, because by his admittance, no one can give
the court power to punish him, when it judicially appears there is no law to
do it. But when the pardon is special, to avail the criminal it must
judicially appear that it has been accepted, and for this reason it must be
specially pleaded. 7 Pet. R. 150, 162.
9.-Sec. 5. The effect of a pardon is to protect from punishment the
criminal for the offence pardoned, but for no other. 1 Porter, 475. It seems
that the pardon of an assault and battery, which afterwards becomes murder
by the death of the person beaten, would not operate as a pardon of the
murder. 12 Pick. 496. In general, the effect of a full pardon is to restore
the convict to all his rights. But to this there are some exceptions: 1st.
When the criminal has been guilty of perjury, a pardon will not qualify him
to be a witness at any time afterwards. 2d. When one was convicted of an
offence by which he became civilly dead, a pardon did not affect or annul
the second marriage of his wife, nor the sale of his property by persons
appointed to administer on his estate, nor divest his heirs of the interest
acquired in his estate in consequence of his civil death. 10 Johns. R. 232,
483.
10.-Sec. 6. All contracts, made for the buying or procuring a pardon
for a convict, are void. And such contracts will be declared null by a court
of equity, on the ground that they are opposed to public policy. 4 Bouv.
Inst. n. 3857. Vide, generally, Bac. Ab. h.t.; Com. Dig. h.t.; Nels. Ab.
h.t.; Vin. Ab. h.t.; 13 Petersd. Ab. h.t.; Dane's Ab. h.t.; 3 lust. 233
to 240; Hawk. b. 2, c. 37; 1 Chit. Cr. L. 762 to 778; 2 Russ. on Cr. 595
Arch. Cr. Pl. 92; Stark. Cr. Pl. 368, 380.

As Saul yielded himself fully to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, he saw the mistakes of his life and recognized the far-reaching claims of the law of God. He who had been a proud Pharisee, confident that he was justified by his good works, now bowed before God with the humility and simplicity of a little child, confessing his own unworthiness and pleading the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Saul longed to come into full harmony and communion with the Father and the Son; and in the intensity of his desire for pardon and acceptance he offered up fervent supplications to the throne of grace. {AA 119.2}

David was pardoned of his transgression because he humbled his heart before God in repentance and contrition of soul, and believed that God’s promise to forgive would be fulfilled. He confessed his sin, repented, and was reconverted. In the rapture of the assurance of forgiveness, he exclaimed, “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.” The blessing comes because of pardon; pardon comes through faith that the sin, confessed and repented of, is borne by the great Sin-bearer. Thus from Christ cometh all our blessings. His death is an atoning sacrifice for our sins. He is the great Medium through whom we receive the mercy and favor of God. He, then, is indeed the Originator, the Author, as well as the Finisher, of our faith (Manuscript 21, 1891).

I believe the writings of Ellen White

Consider prison sentences. Some would speak of the "corrections facility," an allusion to the fact that the time spent there was to help the inmate change his or her ways

I just realized part of what I said above isn't entirely accurate. I once stated here that I would not discuss the God doesn't kill theology and apl and kland got pretty upset with me for saying I had rejected it after a studying it. So I can't say that I have never seen apl talk about it here. I had just forgotten about it until a few seconds ago.

Sin is a legal process - Can someone please explain how sin causes the cancer?

You're going to have to refresh my memory.

The atonement of Christ is not a mere skilful way to have our sins pardoned [legal solution]; it is a divine remedy for the cure [healing] of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health [healing]. It is the heaven-ordained means by which the righteousness of Christ may be not only upon us, but in our hearts and characters. {Lt406-1906}

Satan deceives and corrupts the world and makes men believe that they are sinless and holy while sinning against God, but in so doing he is only carrying on his original work. He has introduced no new arguments, he has created no new empire of darkness from which to draw supplies for the furtherance of his deceptions. And sin that was sin in the beginning is sin today; and sin, the apostle declares, is the transgression of God’s law. In these days it is Satan’s determined purpose to intensify sin by making it legal in the children of disobedience. He is to reveal to the world and to heaven what is the order and result of a government carried on according to his ideas of administration and law. He is working with secret yet with intense zeal in both Church and State, to cause men to throw off all the restraints of God’s law, and take a decided stand with him in the ranks of rebellion; [quote]ut when his work is accomplished, the Lord will interpose, and vindicate his honor as the supreme Ruler of the universe. {ST April 28, 1890,

Jesus continued: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” By nature the heart is evil, and “who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.” Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. “The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” “Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.” Romans 8:7; Matthew 15:19. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian’s life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. {DA 172.1}

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Merely Mere"ly, adv.
1. Purely; unmixedly; absolutely.
[1913 Webster]

Ulysses was to force forth his access,
Though merely naked. --Chapman.
[1913 Webster]

2. Not otherwise than; simply; barely; only.
[1913 Webster]

Prize not your life for other ends
Than merely to oblige your friends. --Swift.
[1913 Webster]

Syn: Solely; simply; purely; barely; scarcely.
[1913 Webster]


WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) (wn)
merely
adv 1: and nothing more; "I was merely asking"; "it is simply a
matter of time"; "just a scratch"; "he was only a child";
"hopes that last but a moment" [syn: merely, simply,
just, only, but]

Christ’s dealing with the young man is presented as an object lesson. God has given us the rule of conduct which every one of His servants must follow. It is obedience to His law, not merely a legal obedience, but an obedience which enters into the life, and is exemplified in the character. God has set His own standard of character for all who would become subjects of His kingdom. Only those who will become co-workers with Christ, only those who will say, Lord, all I have and all I am is Thine, will be acknowledged as sons and daughters of God. All should consider what it means to desire heaven, and yet to turn away because of the conditions laid down. Think of what it means to say “No” to Christ. The ruler said, No, I cannot give You all. Do we say the same? The Saviour offers to share with us the work God has given us to do. He offers to use the means God has given us, to carry forward His work in the world. Only in this way can He save us. {DA 523.1}

There is a day just about to burst upon us when God’s mysteries will be seen, and all His ways vindicated; when justice, mercy, and love will be the attributes of His throne. When the earthly warfare is accomplished, and the saints are all gathered home, our first theme will be the song of Moses, the servant of God. The second theme will be the song of the Lamb, the song of grace and redemption. This song will be louder, loftier, and in sublimer strains, echoing and re-echoing through the heavenly courts. Thus the song of God’s providence is sung, connecting the varying dispensations; for all is now seen without a veil between the legal, the prophetical, and the gospel. {Hvn 177.1}

The gift of God in his beloved Son was the expression of an incomprehensible love. It was the utmost that God could do to preserve the honor of his law, and still save the transgressor. Why should man not study the theme of redemption? It is the greatest subject that can engage the human mind. If men would contemplate the love of Christ, displayed in the cross, their faith would be strengthened to appropriate the merits of his shed blood, and they would be cleansed and saved from sin. There are many who will be lost, because they depend on legal religion, or mere repentance for sin. But repentance for sin alone cannot work the salvation of any soul. Man cannot be saved by his own works. Without Christ it is impossible for him to render perfect obedience to the law of God; and heaven can never be gained by an imperfect obedience; for this would place all heaven in jeopardy, and make possible a second rebellion. {ST, December 30, 1889 par. 4}

green - you teach English, you should then understand the idiom "mere" can mean more than only. And taken in context, a "mere skillful way" is not speaking positively about the "skillful way" but actually denying it. Reading the rest of the quote gives you the truth, which you only consider a fraction, and that is salvation is a DIVINE REMEDY for the CURE of transgression. And yes, I think I read you correctly, for you treat "transgression of the law" as a LEGAL event, and can't conceive that is may be something actually real, and thus you discredit what I have written as ignorant, not listening, etc. Are you and Gary cut from the same cloth?

Sin causes death. Sin causes cancer and disease of all kinds. This is all caused by transgression of the law. Not transgression in a legal sense, but in a physical sense that causes all the degradation and death. And a death which is not an execution by God, but by sin.

God's law is written on every nerve, muscle and fiber of our being. It is written, and there is a writing media which contains the law, which can't be broken or else the system dies. Jesus shared our heredity to take on our sorrows and temptations, and solve the problem, providing a divine remedy. And it is Satan constant effort to misrepresent the nature of sin. Are you sure you have not fallen into the trap?

MERE, a. [L. merus.] This or that only; distinct from any thing else.
From mere success nothing can be concluded in favor of a nation.
What if the head, the eye or ear repin'd
To serve mere engines to the ruling mind?
1. Absolute; entire.

MERE, n. [L. mare. See Moor.] A pool or lake.

MERE, n. [Gr. to divide.] A boundary; used chiefly in the compound, mere-stone.

MERE, v.t. To divide, limit or bound.

What right have these teachers, they said, some of them mere fishermen, to present ideas contrary to the doctrines that we have taught the people? . . . {AA 78.3}

Their eyes could not discern, under the humble exterior, the Lord of life and glory, even though Christ's power was revealed before them in works that no mere man could do. . . . {AA 150.1}

But in the setting apart of these two apostles, there is no record indicating that any virtue was imparted by the mere act of laying on of hands. . . . {AA 162.2}

Timothy was a mere youth when he was chosen by God to be a teacher, but his principles had been so established by his early education that he was fitted to take his place as Paul's helper. . . . {AA 203.3}

A mere profession of faith in Christ, a boastful knowledge of the truth, does not make a man a Christian. A religion that seeks only to gratify the eye, the ear, and the taste, or that sanctions self-indulgence, is not the religion of Christ. {AA 317.1}

And yes, I think I read you correctly, for you treat "transgression of the law" as a LEGAL event, and can't conceive that is may be something actually real, and thus you discredit what I have written

I can see your "cause" again points to God as the "cause". Would you say, "sin caused God to kill the sinner?" SMH.

The Sabbath was made for the benefit of man; and to knowingly transgress the holy commandment forbidding labor upon the seventh day is a crime in the sight of heaven which was of such magnitude under the Mosaic law as to require the death of the offender. But this was not all that the offender was to suffer, for God would not take a transgressor of His law to heaven. He must suffer the second death, which is the full and final penalty for the transgressor of the law of God. {1T 533.1}

Christ saw the helpless condition of the race, and he came to redeem them by living the life of obedience the law requires, and by paying in his death the penalty of disobedience. He came to bring us the message and means of deliverance, an assurance of salvation, not through the abrogation of the law, but through obedience made possible by his merits. {RH, April 29, 1902 par. 10}

The truth that we are to proclaim is that... God so loved .... Don't be lost by a wrong perception of our LOVING Heavenly Father.....

APL, you are the one who acknowledges a law that is not of God in this universe. Of whom you think it is, I know not. In my understanding, God is the Author of the Law, the only law of the universe, and it is His law that requires the death of every sinner. As King of the universe, He it is who sees to it that His law is enforced--the devil is not an enforcer of God's law, nor is any "transgression of the law" able to enforce the law (sin = transgression of the law).

Did "sin" require the death of the offender? Or was it the "law"? Is the law equal to sin? Is it sinful? No, no! Anyone who seeks to lessen the claims of God's law is in error and in sin, deceived and a deceiver.

Salvation through Christ depends on His having fulfilled God's Holy Law, in love, by yielding His own life, undeservedly dying the death required by sin so that He could equally undeservedly offer life in place of death to sinners. Salvation cannot take place apart from this law--which, significantly, means no person can save himself or herself apart from Christ. This is a legal requirement as well as a healing process.

Remember the children of Israel being told to look at the bronze serpent to be saved of their deadly snake bites? They had to LOOK to be saved. Looking was the legal part. It fulfilled the command they had been given, demonstrating their faith. Healing came secondary to the look. Salvation involves faith and action, law and healing.

... love ...

Through disobedience to God, Adam and Eve had lost Eden, and because of sin the whole earth was cursed. But if God’s people followed His instruction, their land would be restored to fertility and beauty. God Himself gave them directions in regard to the culture of the soil, and they were to co-operate with Him in its restoration. Thus the whole land, under God’s control, would become an object lesson of spiritual truth. As in obedience to His natural laws the earth should produce its treasures, so in obedience to His moral law the hearts of the people were to reflect the attributes of His character. Even the heathen would recognize the superiority of those who served and worshiped the living God. {COL 289.2}

Through disobedience to God Adam and Eve had lost Eden, and because of sin the whole earth was cursed. But if God’s people followed His instruction, their land would be restored to fertility and beauty. God Himself gave them directions in regard to the culture of the soil, and they were to co-operate with Him in its restoration. Thus the whole land, under God’s control, would become an object lesson of spiritual truth. As in obedience to His natural laws the earth should produce its treasures, so in obedience to His moral law the hearts of the people were to reflect the attributes of His character.9 {AH 143.2}

Thus we often find it, even in the religious world. God’s express commands are transgressed; and “because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do the evil.” [Ecclesiastes 8:11.] In the face of the most positive commands of God, men and women will follow their own inclinations, and then dare to pray over the matter, to prevail upon God to allow them to go contrary to his expressed will. Satan comes to the side of such persons, as he did to Eve in Eden, and impresses them. They have an exercise of mind, and this they relate as a most wonderful experience which the Lord has given them. But true experience will be in harmony with natural and divine law; false experience arrays itself against the laws of life and the precepts of Jehovah. {CTBH 42.3}

It is labor lost to teach people to look to God as a healer of their infirmities, unless they are taught also to lay aside unhealthful practices. In order to receive His blessing in answer to prayer, they must cease to do evil and learn to do well. Their surroundings must be sanitary, their habits of life correct. They must live in harmony with the law of God, both natural and spiritual. {CCh 304.2}
To those who desire prayer for their restoration to health, it should be made plain that the violation of God’s law, either natural or spiritual, is sin, and that in order for them to receive His blessing, sin must be confessed and forsaken. {CCh 304.3}

Notice that in every instance Ellen White distinguishes, natural, or in other words, intrinsic, law from spiritual law. Violation of natural law affects our ability to keep God's spiritual law, but they are not the same thing. Ellen White keeps them distinctly separate.

Transgression of the law, the design template brings all sickness, disease, aging and death. THAT is why sin is so offensive to our LOVING Heavenly FATHER. No, God can't cure "health effect" as you say and yet let the sinner because that would come right back on the sinner. Sin, when it is full brings death. The law requires righteousness, and perfect character. This man has not to give, but comes to us as a gift should we accept it. Christ can save us from our sin, not in our sin, and can restore, heal us, in to perfect harmony of the law, the design template of all life.

Doing word studies on this is very instructive for if she had really thought the punishment for breaking God's law is intrinsic she would have said so in plain language using easily understood words like intrinsic, natural, and innate. She never does that.

We need just such lessons as the Bible gives us, for with the revelation of sin is recorded the retribution which follows. The sorrow and penitence of the guilty, and the wailing of the sin-sick soul, come to us from the past, telling us that man was then, as now, in need of the pardoning mercy of God. It teaches us that while He is a punisher of crime, He pities and forgives the repenting sinner. {4T 12.3}

The teachings of Jesus were utterly refused by the Sadducees, as he was animated by a spirit which they refused to acknowledge as manifesting itself thus. They conceived of God as a Supreme Being, exalted above man, and unapproachable by him. Having created man, he left him to control his own life, and shape the events of the world. The doctrine of Christ directly opposed the belief of the Sadducees. The word and works of Christ testified to a divine power which accomplishes miraculous results, of a future, eternal life exalted above the finite life, of God as a Father to the children of men, watchful of their true interests, and guarding them. He taught that God was a rewarder of the righteous, and a punisher of the transgressor. He was not an intangible spirit, but a living ruler of the universe. This gracious Father was constantly working for the good of man, and mindful of all that concerns him. The very hairs of his head are numbered. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground without the notice of the Heavenly Father, and man is more valuable than many sparrows. Jesus presented before them their ignorance of the Scriptures in assigning to human power that which could be wrought only through the power of the Spirit of God. He declared that their confusion of faith and darkness of mind resulted mainly from this cause, and that spiritual things must be spiritually discerned. {3SP 47.1}

God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

The same angel who had come from the royal courts to rescue Peter, had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber; it was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, laying low his pride and bringing upon him the punishment of the Almighty. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive judgment of God. {AA 152.1

The very word "punish" implies an overt, willful action--not something "intrinsic." That sinners will be punished is amply established in Scripture.

David proposed to build a house for God, in which he could place the sacred ark, and to which all Israel should come to worship. The Lord informed David, through his prophet, that he should not build the house, but that he should have a son who should build a house for God. “I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men. But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.” God manifests pity and compassion for the weakness of erring man, and promises, if he transgress, to punish him; and if he repent, to forgive him. {1SP 387.1}

Jude 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them. This was the execution of the judgment. The wicked then received according as the saints, in unison with Jesus, had meted out to them during the one thousand years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. The broken, ragged mountains melted with fervent heat, the atmosphere also, and all the stubble was consumed. Then our inheritance opened before us, glorious and beautiful, and we inherited the whole earth made new. We all shouted with a loud voice, “Glory; Alleluia!” {EW 54.1

We are in an age of the world when there is a fascinating, mesmeric power in all that class who would gloss over sin, secretly insinuating impure thoughts and coming as angels of light while they are the servants of sin. They do not sense the offensive character of sin or the retributive justice of God that will fall upon the sinner. I tremble for those who are not fully upon their guard, and who will be in danger of being deceived and corrupted. As a servant of Jesus Christ I warn you to shun the company of this class. Let them not into your houses, neither bid them Godspeed. Separate yourselves from their company, for they corrupt the very atmosphere you breathe.... {TSB 104.3}

The power that inflicted retributive justice upon man’s substitute and surety, was the power that sustained and upheld the suffering One under the tremendous weight of wrath that would have fallen upon a sinful world. Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God’s law.—Manuscript 35, 1895.

The brief but terrible history of Ananias and Sapphira is traced by the pen of inspiration for the benefit of all who profess to be the followers of Christ. This important lesson has not rested with sufficient weight upon the minds of our people. It will be profitable for all to thoughtfully consider the nature of the grievous offense for which these guilty ones were made an example. This one marked evidence of God’s retributive justice is fearful, and should lead all to fear and tremble to repeat sins which brought such a punishment. Selfishness was the great sin which had warped the characters of this guilty couple. {4T 462.2}

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Retributive Re*trib"u*tive, Retributory Re*trib"u*to*ry, a.
[Cf. LL. retributorius worthy of retribution.]
Of or pertaining to retribution; of the nature of
retribution; involving retribution or repayment; as,
retributive justice; retributory comforts.
[1913 Webster]


WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) (wn)
retributive
adj 1: of or relating to or having the nature of retribution;
"retributive justice demands an eye for an eye" [syn:
retaliatory, relatiative, retributive,
retributory, vindicatory]
2: given or inflicted in requital according to merits or
deserts; "retributive justice" [syn: retributive,
retributory, vindicatory]

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Retribution Ret`ri*bu"tion, n. [L. retributio: cf. F.
r['e]tribution.]
1. The act of retributing; repayment.
[1913 Webster]

In good offices and due retributions, we may not be
pinching and niggardly. --Bp. Hall.
[1913 Webster]

2. That which is given in repayment or compensation; return
suitable to the merits or deserts of, as an action;
commonly, condign punishment for evil or wrong.
[1913 Webster]

All who have their reward on earth, . . .
Naught seeking but the praise of men, here find
Fit retribution, empty as their deeds. --Milton.
[1913 Webster]

3. Specifically, reward and punishment, as distributed at the
general judgment.
[1913 Webster]

It is a strong argument for a state of retribution
hereafter, that in this world virtuous persons are
very often unfortunate, and vicious persons
prosperous. --Addison.
[1913 Webster]

Syn: Repayment; requital; recompense; payment; retaliation.
[1913 Webster] Retributive


WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) (wn)
retribution
n 1: a justly deserved penalty [syn: retribution, requital]
2: the act of correcting for your wrongdoing
3: the act of taking revenge (harming someone in retaliation for
something harmful that they have done) especially in the next
life; "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord"--
Romans 12:19; "For vengeance I would do nothing. This nation
is too great to look for mere revenge"--James Garfield; "he
swore vengeance on the man who betrayed him"; "the swiftness
of divine retribution" [syn: vengeance, retribution,
payback]

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Retribute Re*trib"ute, v. t. [L. retributus, p. p.
ofretribuere to retribute; pref re- + tribuere to bestow,
assign, pay. See Tribute.]
To pay back; to give in return, as payment, reward, or
punishment; to requite; as, to retribute one for his
kindness; to retribute just punishment to a criminal. [Obs.
or R.] --Locke.
[1913 Webster]

347. Grains and fruits prepared free from grease, and in as natural a condition as possible, should be the food for the tables of all who claim to be preparing for translation to heaven.--T., V. II, p. 352. {HL 78.5}

Have you forgotten that Christ died the death of a sinner? And how was God involved? How did Christ die? Have you no answer?

Is when she says that that exercise of force is contrary to the principles of the government of God out of context?

Is when she says, rebellion is not to be overcome by force, out of context?

Is when she says compelling power is only found under Satan's government out of context?

In the sanctuary service, what is the end of the sinner?

There is so much evidence, that one has to be willfully ignorant.

What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are all wrong! The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness. The testimony, so cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake, for it is the True Witness who speaks, and His testimony must be correct. {3T 252.4}

Have you forgotten that Christ died the death of a sinner? And how was God involved? How did Christ die? Have you no answer?

Is when she says that that exercise of force is contrary to the principles of the government of God out of context?

Is when she says, rebellion is not to be overcome by force, out of context?

Is when she says compelling power is only found under Satan's government out of context?

In the sanctuary service, what is the end of the sinner?

"Christ laid aside His royal robes and garbed Himself with humanity and offered sacrifice, Himself the priest, Himself the victim. AA33" behold the Redeemer of the world suffering the penalty of their transgression of the law of God. The verdict is that "the soul that sinneth it shall die." [Ezekiel 18:4.] But on the cross the sinner sees the only begotten of the Father, dying in his stead, and giving the transgressor life. {CE 95}"He who was the brightness of the Father’s glory, the express image of His person, bore our sins in His own body on the tree, suffering the penalty of man’s transgression until justice was satisfied and required no more. OFE 116 "This penalty Christ bore for the sins of the transgressor; He has borne the punishment for every man and for this reason He can ransom every soul, however fallen his condition, if he will accept the law of God as his standard of righteousness (MS 77, 1899)