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Imminent financial crash ccoming #184346
07/03/17 07:07 PM
07/03/17 07:07 PM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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I don't know if a youtube interview will display and work here, but this interview with Lynette Zang, a woman with decades of financial experience, is a must see.

She shows how close we are to a complete financial collapse and a complete world-wide reset of the monetary system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrdWIb7FYiU

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184351
07/04/17 09:28 AM
07/04/17 09:28 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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This is a guy I like to listen to;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czcUmnsprQI

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: Alchemy] #184354
07/04/17 05:23 PM
07/04/17 05:23 PM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
This is a guy I like to listen to;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czcUmnsprQI



LOL. I'll bet you just love him as he advocates Ludwig von Mises' and Friederich Hayek's philosophy of economics. The non-intervention of Warren G. Harding is exactly what von Mises, Hayek, and the entire school of Austrian economics teach. So, yeah, you love that non-managed capitalism.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184359
07/05/17 04:35 AM
07/05/17 04:35 AM
dedication  Offline
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Voices have been raised warning of a coming economic crash for some twenty years now -- (probably even longer)

Had a DVD sent to me about ten years ago that I should quickly take out any money I might have in the bank and give it "to the work" before it looses all it's value.

Somehow it seems the angels of Rev. 7 are holding up the economy to give us a little more time --


Personally I don't think it's worth arguing over national "philosophies of economics" at this point -- any returns to a more sensible method of money management cannot undo the damage, it's grown too large. It can put a few bandages on a bulging abscess, but it can't stop it from bursting and collapsing.



We need to be talking about how a severe national and international money crises will affect our lives, including our spiritual lives, the church, and the sounding of the three angels' messages.

In a major economic crises the basics of life will be hard to obtain.
Society will be in turmoil -- rioting, theft, and chaos will reign; followed by strict and severe government action, a resetting of money, in which everyone looses whatever money they may have, and then gets limited access to "new money" maybe in the form of a debit card with a limited withdrawal amount.

Some think buying gold and silver will protect them, however, a dictatorial government can confiscate all gold and silver to "build" their new monetary system.

Those who don't follow the new rules of the military type government don't get a new debit card, and can't buy or sell.


The one advice I've read in EGW's writings is --
"Out of the cities" "find a place where you can grow your own food". And yes that would not be in the cities even if you have a big yard as other's will "harvest" your garden.

Quote:
Again and again the Lord has instructed that our people are to take their families away from the cities, into the country, where they can raise their own provisions; for in the future the problem of buying and selling will be a very serious one. We should now begin to heed the instruction given us over and over again: Get out of the cities into rural districts, where the houses are not crowded closely together, and where you will be free from the interference of enemies. {AH 141.4}



Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: dedication] #184362
07/05/17 07:22 AM
07/05/17 07:22 AM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Voices have been raised warning of a coming economic crash for some twenty years now -- (probably even longer)



I agree that there have been voices of warning raised for a lot of years, but they have been voices crying in the wilderness. Nobody has really been listening.

That said, we are in an economic state that we have never been in before since the US has been a nation. We have a severe downturn in what is called money velocity. What it means is that people are no longer borrowing to spend. The economies world wide have been based upon debt for quite a few decades now, and because of that our economies are really slowing down. What central banks have done in the past to artificially pump up the debt-based economy is increase the formation of debt and inflation which leads to higher wages and prices that camouflage the sick economy and kick the can on down the road. They have done this by lowering interest rates again and again, and through massive "stimulus" programs.

Now, however, interest rates to banks are so low the central banks are actually paying banks to hold the currency the central banks are printing. This means they cannot cut interest rates to give an artificial stimulus to a very sick economy. They are out of tools to play with that can have any significant temporary effect. The "money velocity" right now is actually lower than it was in the Great Depression of the 1930's, but then the banks and government could mess with the currency supply. Doing so extended that depression for far longer than it should have happened. But now they do not have that option.

The second thing that is going on is the US dollar is at historical lows in real value. Right now it is only worth about a nickel, and it has been dropping despite what the Fed has been doing to try to prop it up. When the dollar goes to zero the entire system collapses. We will be like Germany after WWI. Hyper inflation so bad that if you don't get paid at least twice a day by the time you get to the bank your money will have no value whatsoever.

The signs are here that the end has come. We have massive political dishonesty like I've never seen in my life time. The US is close to civil war and when the economy goes things will be just like Ellen White predicted, worse in reality than we can now imagine. The Spirit of God has already been withdrawn to the point that violence is no longer unthinkable to most people over nothing more than someone thinks different than they do. Free speech is really close to being nothing more than a memory.

Ellen White says that when the US finally abandons all pretense of following the constitution the end is here. Well, the US has almost completely abandoned the constitution. And the backlash that is coming from the last 8 years of socialism being forced down people's throats is going to be a really scary thing. The political swing is going to be massive and violent.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184363
07/05/17 01:01 PM
07/05/17 01:01 PM
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kland  Offline
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In finances, there has always been people saying the stock market is in such an unusual state, or it won't ever be the same. But the market adjusts, and all unusual things become usual. Sure, we know there is coming a time, but when people keep saying the end is near, soon no one pays attention to the wolf cries.

Consider the title of the thread, A new Global Economic Restructure in 2012.

I agree, there is an underlying hostility of the people. It's been there a few years...

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: kland] #184364
07/05/17 06:59 PM
07/05/17 06:59 PM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kland
In finances, there has always been people saying the stock market is in such an unusual state, or it won't ever be the same. But the market adjusts, and all unusual things become usual. Sure, we know there is coming a time, but when people keep saying the end is near, soon no one pays attention to the wolf cries.

Consider the title of the thread, A new Global Economic Restructure in 2012.

I agree, there is an underlying hostility of the people. It's been there a few years...


I've read the thread. However, the things now present in the economy, the dropping like a rock of money velocity to below 1930's levels, the real value of the US dollar, interest rates so low that the prime rate is now negative, the level of unemployment, and the political climate, are things that have never existed before in the US all at the same time. Some have never existed before. We are in completely uncharted waters.

As to the hostility, it is miles beyond what it was 5 years ago. Ever seen a concerted effort by the entire main stream press to destroy a President before? I never have. Even the press' dislike of Reagan didn't approach the dishonest attempts to destroy Trump. The main stream news has been almost completely focused on destroying Trump since before he got elected. There is no balance in it. And now they are talking openly how it has always been a mistake to have any level of impartiality. Ever seen that before? Carl Bernstein, of Woodward and Bernstein fame, has come out and said the press needs to have a "new" kind of reporting. What could that "new" kind of reporting be? He says it is time to destroy Trump. In other words, forget all ethics. Do whatever you want to get rid of him.


Last edited by Gary K; 07/05/17 07:00 PM.
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184373
07/06/17 03:09 AM
07/06/17 03:09 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary K



I agree that there have been voices of warning raised for a lot of years, but they have been voices crying in the wilderness. Nobody has really been listening.

That said, we are in an economic state that we have never been in before since the US has been a nation. We have a severe downturn in what is called money velocity. .....
Now, however, interest rates to banks are so low the central banks are actually paying banks to hold the currency the central banks are printing. This means they cannot cut interest rates to give an artificial stimulus to a very sick economy. They are out of tools to play with ....


Yes, I agree.

That's why I wrote that it's gotten too big -- " any return to a more sensible method of money management cannot undo the damage, it's grown too large. Reforms can put a few bandages on a bulging abscess, but it can't stop it from bursting and collapsing."

And when it does a severe form of "socialism" will prevail, as everyone will loose all their money, and the government will distribute regulated buying power based on a new currency.

What does it mean to us as Seventh-day Adventist Christians?

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: dedication] #184381
07/06/17 11:15 PM
07/06/17 11:15 PM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Gary K



I agree that there have been voices of warning raised for a lot of years, but they have been voices crying in the wilderness. Nobody has really been listening.

That said, we are in an economic state that we have never been in before since the US has been a nation. We have a severe downturn in what is called money velocity. .....
Now, however, interest rates to banks are so low the central banks are actually paying banks to hold the currency the central banks are printing. This means they cannot cut interest rates to give an artificial stimulus to a very sick economy. They are out of tools to play with ....


Yes, I agree.

That's why I wrote that it's gotten too big -- " any return to a more sensible method of money management cannot undo the damage, it's grown too large. Reforms can put a few bandages on a bulging abscess, but it can't stop it from bursting and collapsing."

And when it does a severe form of "socialism" will prevail, as everyone will loose all their money, and the government will distribute regulated buying power based on a new currency.

What does it mean to us as Seventh-day Adventist Christians?





It means that some of the last prophecies of Ellen White about the end of time are being fulfilled before our very eyes.

One of the reasons I started studying political and economic theory was to be able to understand what is happening around me in the world. The deeper my understanding has gotten the more clearly the truths found in the Bible and Ellen White's writings become to me.

All truth is important. God, through Hosea, said His people are destroyed because of lack of knowledge. Why is that? Because if we are not knowledgeable about the sources from where the political and economic issues that affect us every day arise from, and what the real implications are of the things we can see, we cannot really understand what is happening in the world around us.

In many ways I think it is actually sinful not to understand what is going on. If we cannot explain it to the common man on the street in terms he hears and can understand outside of the what we know from the Bible and Ellen White, how can we ever get him to listen to those sources? We have to be able to get past his prejudices in the same way Jesus did, by pointing to the world around us and drawing lessons from that to illustrate divine truths.

Last edited by Gary K; 07/06/17 11:19 PM.
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184383
07/07/17 03:44 AM
07/07/17 03:44 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary K

One of the reasons I started studying political and economic theory was to be able to understand what is happening around me in the world. The deeper my understanding has gotten the more clearly the truths found in the Bible and Ellen White's writings become to me.


Would you like to share some of these connected insights from the political/economic world that deepened understanding in Biblical and prophetic writings?

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: dedication] #184391
07/07/17 06:29 AM
07/07/17 06:29 AM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Gary K

One of the reasons I started studying political and economic theory was to be able to understand what is happening around me in the world. The deeper my understanding has gotten the more clearly the truths found in the Bible and Ellen White's writings become to me.


Would you like to share some of these connected insights from the political/economic world that deepened understanding in Biblical and prophetic writings?


I will just say this right now. When we misunderstand economic laws we live our financial life by falsehoods we accept, and we suffer the consequences of violating those laws. When we allow these falsehoods to go unchallenged in the world we are not being the watchmen on the walls God wants us to be for untold suffering and misery comes from the poverty that comes from nations and individuals violating these laws. We allow a lot of needless suffering to take place by not understanding and teaching the truth in these matters. That is in direct violation of the duty God has laid upon us to love our fellow man. It is the violation of the Golden Rule, or in other words, the entire law and the prophets.

The same goes for political philosophy and principles. When we do not stand for correct principles in these matters we once again bring untold misery upon the earth. We are told to stand for truth, and yet we have often stood by and allowed deceit and misrepresentation of the principles of truth to stand unopposed because they have happened in the political world. Since when are we to stand by and watch these moral ills passively? The Bible does not teach us that.

How do political lies affect the world? Politics is where civil and religious liberty is greatly affected. And all forms of collectivism destroy these liberties. We should stand against them, not as politicians, but as people who stand for truth, and for civil and religious liberty. We are always to stand for the liberty that God has always granted humanity. And we are always to oppose them for those principles are opposed to the kingdom of God.

God's law is the law of liberty. Why does the Bible call it that? Because liberty can only be based upon self-control. Alexis de Toqueville said: Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith. de Toqueville was a political thinker, and also a Christian.

The Bible teaches us the same thing he did.

The church has only gotten really involved in the political world over one issue: the Sabbath. Yet in the political world we see the expression of the ideas that will destroy all liberty: economic, civil, and religious. Why do we not stand against the power of coercion in all of its forms, for when economic liberty disappears, so do civil and religious liberty. In the history of the world we see that the rise of economic liberty was attended also by the rising of civil and religious liberty. These three things always came together. And these three things are at the basis of the only government here on earth that God ever established.

What happened when Solomon and Rehoboam destroyed economic liberty in Israel through massive taxation? There was rebellion and civil and religious liberty disappeared. The government of Israel, the king, established a system of worship, and told the people not to go worship God at Jerusalem. How did civil liberty disappear? What was Rehoboam's response to the complaints of the people over taxation? He basically said the people were his slaves and they would be treated as such.

What do we see in the political world today? Basically the same thing. We will tax you until you can not bear it. We will destroy your economic freedom by putting you so far in debt by our spending that you will never climb out of this problem. And the Bible teaches us not to go in debt because whoever holds your debt has power over you. So why have we not stood for liberty by getting involved in the fight against deficit spending? The Bible has taught us this, why have we not stood for it? Most likely because we have been swept away by the delusion that governments do not need to operate by economic realities. Who cares about government debt? All they have to do is print more money.

Our misunderstanding of economic truth has led us into economic slavery. And we stand at the verge of the entire population of the world being held as serfs to the will of a very few people who will hold almost all of the tangible wealth there is in the world. They can then say who can buy and who can sell. This is what the Bible tells us is coming. Why has it occurred? Because economic laws have been deliberately violated left and right for many years. We have been told boom-and-bust is the natural result of economic liberty, when, in fact, it is the deliberate manipulation of currencies that causes boom-and-bust and is done in the desire to take wealth away from the common man and place it in the hands of a very few people. Boom-and-bust has always transferred money away from the common man and into the hands of the few. It is done because wealth is power. And our governments are implicit in this fraud. Our politicians and media deliberately contribute to the economic lies that have led us to this point. They keep the people confused as to economic realities and then tell the people that it is raining while they are urinating on people's shoes.

Yes, these things were prophesied. But, just as we were told they were coming, we were also told to fight against the loss of liberty so that more people could be saved for God's kingdom. We are guilty of a lot of failure to stand for God's principles in areas that we have for all intents and purposes deliberately ignored.

Last edited by Gary K; 07/07/17 06:32 AM.
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: kland] #184393
07/07/17 06:48 AM
07/07/17 06:48 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
In finances, there has always been people saying the stock market is in such an unusual state, or it won't ever be the same. But the market adjusts, and all unusual things become usual. Sure, we know there is coming a time, but when people keep saying the end is near, soon no one pays attention to the wolf cries.

Consider the title of the thread, A new Global Economic Restructure in 2012.


I agree, there is an underlying hostility of the people. It's been there a few years...


I'm glad you emphasized "2012".

Last edited by Alchemy; 07/07/17 06:56 AM.
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184394
07/07/17 06:54 AM
07/07/17 06:54 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Just a simple reading of prophecy warns us of the merchants of the world, what is their merchandise, (Rev. 18:11-14) and what their simple minded concerns are.

Our politicians with these merchants are easy prey for mighty Babylon. Only that Babylon turns out to lose this battle in the end.

We must come to that point of trusting the outcome of all this in the end. There is some good to being "wise as serpents" (Matt. 10:16) but, being gentle as doves is more important. We must look forward to a New Heaven and New Earth.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184413
07/08/17 07:18 AM
07/08/17 07:18 AM
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Gary, wasn't it Toqueville who said that America was great because America was good. Economic freedom and all other freedoms are a byproduct of righteousness. The focus of our message on the everlasting gospel is the only real solution to both our individual enslavement to sin and also to all of western society's problems. The gospel restores our individual freedoms, reason take back the throne and we are liberated. That is the bedrock of sound economics.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: Charity] #184418
07/08/17 11:55 AM
07/08/17 11:55 AM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Gary, wasn't it Toqueville who said that America was great because America was good. Economic freedom and all other freedoms are a byproduct of righteousness. The focus of our message on the everlasting gospel is the only real solution to both our individual enslavement to sin and also to all of western society's problems. The gospel restores our individual freedoms, reason take back the throne and we are liberated. That is the bedrock of sound economics.


I'm not sure if that quote is from de Toqueville or not. It does tend to agree with other things he has said though.

I agree that God is the ultimate source of liberty. But, and this is a big but, how do you get to the place of speaking of that with someone who has gone through 16 years of education that has taught him the Bible is bunk and that all good things come from government? If you go straight to Christianity and what the Bible says you will be tuned out before you even begin.

I post on a site where there are a lot of highly intelligent people, but people who are for the most part either highly anti-Christian, or at least highly skeptical of Christianity. They have replaced their need of religion with socialism. That is now their religion, and they believe in it fervently. Most will not listen to anything other than socialism, and actually get really upset if someone challenges their ideology. However, there are a few who will thoughtfully listen and question you to see if you really understand what you are talking about. A person has to be able to point out why and how an economy works, why and how liberty is better than coercion, and do it from sources they will at least listen to.

Once you gain their respect then you can begin to show where our ultimate best interests lie, but before you can do that you have to meet them on their level. You have to be able to show from political thinkers, economists, etc... why what you believe is better than what they believe. You must plant the seeds of truth that get under their skin without their knowing it, and that cause them to begin to question if what they have been taught all their lives by their teachers, professors and the media is really true. You have to get them to really begin to think and question their own beliefs. To do that a person must have a really good grasp of economics and the different political philosophies so you can explain things to them in your own words, and demonstrate how you put the principles you are talking about into practice in your own life. That takes as thorough a knowledge of economics and political theory as it does Biblical knowledge and experience with God.

I started a conversation with a young programmer, around 30 years old, a week or so ago. He was curious why I had said some of the things I had said, so I had to explain to him in detail why I had the philosophy I did. It took a real understanding of economics and political ideology to do that outside of the Bible. Why outside of the Bible? Because he would have immediately turned me off if I had brought it up. Our posts were pretty in-depth averaging around a 1000 words per post, and this has gone on for days. I haven't heard from him since the 4th, but don't know if he has just decided to stop talking, or he has other things he is doing as this is a popular time to take a vacation. All I know is I would never have been able to get him to listen to my ideas if I had used Bible only, and I was able to get him to at least acknowledge personal liberty was much more important than he had ever thought it was as he was greatly in favor of using the power coercion that resides in the state. He has modified that position somewhat already and has come to understand why those of us who decry its usage do so. Before he hadn't a clue as to why using the coercive power of the state wasn't seen by everyone as a good thing.

He's been indoctrinated, but still retains enough thoughtfulness to be able to reach using logic and understanding of the issues as the world sees them. Without that ability it would have been impossible to get him to question anything he thinks as he is someone with a really high IQ and to get his respect you have to meet him on his level of thinking.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184433
07/09/17 04:57 AM
07/09/17 04:57 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary
How do political lies affect the world? Politics is where civil and religious liberty is greatly affected. And all forms of collectivism destroy these liberties. We should stand against them, not as politicians, but as people who stand for truth, and for civil and religious liberty. We are always to stand for the liberty that God has always granted humanity. And we are always to oppose them for those principles are opposed to the kingdom of God.....

.... but before you can do that you have to meet them on their level. You have to be able to show from political thinkers, economists, etc... why what you believe is better than what they believe.
Political science and economics isn't something I've studied deeply enough to meet "political thinkers".
My knowledge on these matters are rather "surface" and scattered bits and pieces.

However, I still remember back when communism "ended" in Russia in 1991. While much of the west was rejoicing, other voices were warning that communism had not really ended, it was simply going into temporary remission, and quietly waiting for new alignments.

In fact I still have articles, written 1992 and 1995 --
Wonder what your thoughts on this is?

Originally Posted By: Freedom's Ring Sept. 1992

Gorbachev, who once headed the KGB is one of the greatest new Age advocates in the world for restructuring the world with "higher consciousness", "global consciousness" and a "worldwide revolution" involving a "new way of thinking" which "must begin in the mind" (quoted phrases from Perestoika:New Thinking for the for our country and the world NY Harper & Row Pblr 1987)

We must realize that today we are dealing with a KGB that is promoting New Age globalism and mind change.

Last spring (1992) in an interview, Malachi Martin described the KGB as a completely intact colossal organization of twenty million spies, jailers and executioners waiting quietly for new alignments. It appears now that the Vatican has assumed control of this massive organization.....

Originally Posted By: Freedom's Ring Mar. 1995

According to the Cape Cod (Massachusetts) Times of January 23, 1993, Gorbachev stated:
"The future needs...international institutions acting on behalf of all. A higher institution that operates on a consensus, such a choice would narrow the independence many believe the United States now enjoys... President (Bill) Clinton will be a success if he uses American influence to accomplish this transformation of international responsibility and increase significantly the role of the United nations."

It is worth noting that Gorbachev, as the last leader of the Soviet Union has never renounced his Marxist ideology. (Mike Blair, The Spotlight March 1995.

The Role of the Gorbachev Foundation and Soviet spawned Global Structures.

"In October, 1917, we parted with the Old World, rejecting it once and for all. We are moving toward a new world, the world of communism. We shall never turn off that road," Mikhail Gorbachev 1987....

The Gorbachev foundation USA was established in California on 4/10/91 four months before the August '01 pseudo-coup. the Gorbachev Foundation is an international structure of Soviet strategists with offices in Moscow, San Francisco, the Netherlands, and elsewhere, linked to the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and the KGB and its derivatives, which, according to Christopher Story, writing in "The Hidden assault on the West," is charged with the task of 'molding the Western mind and international thinking to make it receptive to Soviet schemes intended to further Moscow's strategy to procure "convergence" between East and West on its own terms.

The theme being pushed by the Gorbachev Foundation is that in the 'post-Cold War era' national borders are provisional and that the international community needs cart-blanche to intervene across border in cases of human rights abuse, or where a government is 'contravening the will for the international community'.

Gorbachev's Green Cross for the Destruction of Traditional Western Values

"In January, 1990, while he was still perched atop the USSR, the former head dictator called for the creation of an international ecology organization in a speech to the Global Forum of Spiritual and Parliamentary leaders for Human Survival. He suggested that it develop solutions to environmental boundaries which 'transcend national boundaries'.
"Plans to carry out Gorbachev's design were laid at the June 1992 parliamentary Earth Summit held in conjunction with the UN. Earth Summit in rio de Janeiro.
Then, in Kyoto, japan, in April, 1993, Green Cross International was born with Mikhail Gorbachev as its president. The red dictator was now dressed up in environmental green.

"Green Cross International quotes Gorbachev as follows: "It seems to me that our future civilization will be determined to a great extent by radical values changes". with world headquarters in Geneva, Switzerland, Green Cross International boast of a board of Trustees that includes such world government devotes as Yoko ono, Olivia Newton-John, Carl Sagan, Robert Redford, and ted turner. Proudly stating its intention in 'foster a global value shift' Green Cross seeks 'the destruction of traditional Western values....(New American, Review of the News. inc. 770 Westhill Blvd., Appleton, WI)


That's just a sampling, but the idea is clear -- the head of the communist regime, before communism went into remission, established himself in organizations that would "change western values" to fit Marxist values.

Gary's post indicating how socialism has taken over the minds of the educated reminded me of these articles.
As I reread those old articles, it kind of jumped out that these things have progressed in scope, and values have definitely been changed in the direction of Marxist thinking, since these articles were written!!



It's not called "communism" but "socialism' yet as far as I understand both come from Marxist ideals.

This quote is attributed to Gorbachev:
"Jesus was the first socialist, the first to seek a better life for mankind."

And Pope Francis has made his social and economic tendencies clear --

They used to say -- don't read that stuff it's conspiracy theory", -- but as I read it again -- it seems very much confirmed that this is what is happening.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184437
07/09/17 03:21 PM
07/09/17 03:21 PM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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dedication,

I fully agree with the quotes you have given, and how you view them.

The US has had presidents for over 100 years, and legislatures, who have worked towards the goals you describe: Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Nixon, Clinton, Carter, and Obama. Other presidents have done this too, only to a lesser degree: the Bushes, Truman, and a far lesser extent, Reagan and Eisenhower, come to mind. Reagan was basically betrayed by those around him into his going along with things for he fully understood that the government was the enemy of the people.

The word communist is in itself a red herring. Think about all the countries that have that word attached to them, and then consider the following. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels wrote "The Communist Manifesto", but Engels later admitted they used the word communist only to separate themselves from all the socialists who had come before them, for they were both committed socialists. It was propaganda designed to give them more attention. So, Marxism is socialism. Think about the USSR: Union of Soviet Socialist Republic. Nazism: National Socialist Party. Chairman Mao was a Marxist. Fidel Castro was a Marxist. All of the nations with the word communist attached to them are actually socialist countries. The claim that fascism, communism, and socialism are all different is nothing but propaganda. There isn't a nickels worth of difference between the ideologies.

In the early 20th century a man named Max Eastman graduated from Davidson College as a committed socialist. He became of the leading socialist activists in the US at a young age, and was asked to become, and became, the first editor of the socialist magazine The Masses. He was invited to the USSR during the revolution by Lenin and Trotsky, and was given access to any documentation of what they were doing that he wanted to see. He wrote then that Stalinism is socialism.

It's ironic that his invitation to the USSR to see what was going on was the very means of turning him against socialism for it allowed him to actually see how socialism is put into practice. He became, after a decade or so later, one of the most outspoken opponents of socialism. His book, Reflections on the Failure of Socialism, is a very good read. It exposes Marx and Engels for what kind of human beings they really are, and socialism itself for what it really is. I've given a link to a free ebook version of it before on this forum, but here is another: https://mises.org/library/reflections-failure-socialism . This is a book well worth reading as is Friederich Hayek's book The Road to Serfdom.

Hayeks's book is a masterful exposing of why collectivism in general, and socialism especially, is one of the worst ideas ever to come about in this world. His documentation for what he says is very complete. You can buy his book from Amazon for pretty cheap. I see it as one of the most important political/economic books written in the 20th century. If everyone would read it the world would be a different place for those who accept what he says would be much more vocal in speaking out against what socialists claim to be true.

The only protection the US has ever had from this is our constitution, and it has been being destroyed since the early 20th century. I can't think of but one president who has not violated the constitution and worked to make the presidency something it was not designed to be--a relatively weak position. That president, Warren G. Harding, is looked upon with scorn as a do-nothing president. Why? Because he left things alone and let them work their way out without government interference. And, he is the only president who ever presided over a stock market crash that didn't turn into a massive depression. The stock market crash that came during his presidency was worse than the 1929 crash, and yet within two years the economy was humming along as if nothing had happened. He didn't mess with the money supply. He didn't invoke massive government regulation. He let the pain that comes from inflation caused by government debt and spending during a war time economy just occur naturally, and in a very short time it was all taken care of, and prosperity returned. Contrast that with FDR's response to the 1929 crash. His actions resulted in a massive, long-term, depression that went on for a decade with almost untold poverty and suffering.

Who actually helped the citizens of his country more? The do-nothing president or the one who thought he could manipulate everything? The results speak for themselves.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: Charity] #184487
07/12/17 04:59 PM
07/12/17 04:59 PM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Gary, wasn't it Toqueville who said that America was great because America was good. Economic freedom and all other freedoms are a byproduct of righteousness. The focus of our message on the everlasting gospel is the only real solution to both our individual enslavement to sin and also to all of western society's problems. The gospel restores our individual freedoms, reason take back the throne and we are liberated. That is the bedrock of sound economics.


Mark,

I have done some research on the quote you referred to as you made me curious as to whether or not de Toqueville had actually said it. I've read a bunch of his writings and could not remember ever coming across it, but thought I might have forgotten it.

What follows are a couple of links that show some extended research into the origin of the quote.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-tocqueville-fraud/article/8100

https://faithandamericanhistory.wordpres...-good-part-one/

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184541
07/15/17 11:58 AM
07/15/17 11:58 AM
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This principle that genuine goodness is genuine greatness is scriptural. The quote attributed rightly or wrongly to Toqueville is the same thought from the wise man: "Righteousness exalteth a nation but sin is a reproach to any people." No nation can maintain a global leadership role and divorce itself from the law of God, from justice and mercy. The USA had largely abandoned the higher ground and it is costing us global respect. Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize, an indication of how thick the darkness has become, but the majority of the world's nations, notwithstanding the prize, no longer have the grudging respect they once had for America. There is no real respect for unrighteousness.

Our gradual enslavement to socialist and communist ideology results from our abandonment of righteousness. The moral vacuum we've created is being filled by human, band-aid solutions. Broken cistrens God calls them. Paul found that rather than meeting the wisdom of his day with reason and logic, he was far more effective preaching the foolishness of the cross, which is not foolishness but is the highest divine logic - Christ crucified.

I always try to meet people on common ground and build confidence and mutual trust, but I also pray for wisdom so that I can be effective in presenting the cross, that I have a ready testimony to share, that I will be instant in season and out of season.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: Charity] #184542
07/15/17 01:26 PM
07/15/17 01:26 PM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
This principle that genuine goodness is genuine greatness is scriptural. The quote attributed rightly or wrongly to Toqueville is the same thought from the wise man: "Righteousness exalteth a nation but sin is a reproach to any people." No nation can maintain a global leadership role and divorce itself from the law of God, from justice and mercy. The USA had largely abandoned the higher ground and it is costing us global respect. Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize, an indication of how thick the darkness has become, but the majority of the world's nations, notwithstanding the prize, no longer have the grudging respect they once had for America. There is no real respect for unrighteousness.

Our gradual enslavement to socialist and communist ideology results from our abandonment of righteousness. The moral vacuum we've created is being filled by human, band-aid solutions. Broken cistrens God calls them. Paul found that rather than meeting the wisdom of his day with reason and logic, he was far more effective preaching the foolishness of the cross, which is not foolishness but is the highest divine logic - Christ crucified.

I always try to meet people on common ground and build confidence and mutual trust, but I also pray for wisdom so that I can be effective in presenting the cross, that I have a ready testimony to share, that I will be instant in season and out of season.


I fully agree. It is because we, as a nation, have abandoned God that we find ourselves in the mess we are in. The masses now want freedom from religion rather than freedom of religion. Another de Toqueville quote on this is: "Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith." This is why liberty was established in the US as the Pilgrims were highly moral. Their religion, their faith in God, was at the basis of all their political ideals. And it is the system of government that they founded here that pretty much reached out and spread across the northern half of the US in the early days, and was the basis for what our founding fathers put in place. The US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and that is why it was so successful in its early years. Those principles were reflected in our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution. Sadly, very little of that survives today. There is still a form, but the substance is long gone.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184548
07/15/17 09:58 PM
07/15/17 09:58 PM
dedication  Offline
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I'm going to throw in a bit of monkey wrench here -- but I have question.

Was America founded on Christian/Judeo principles or was it founded on something else, but the influence of many of it's citizens who held to Christian principles gave it it's moral character?

There is a difference.

The idea in many Christian's minds today, is if we could just get Christians into government and pass Christian laws, America would be great again. But isn't that exactly what prophecy says will happen and it will be the ruin of America?

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: dedication] #184549
07/15/17 10:36 PM
07/15/17 10:36 PM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication
I'm going to throw in a bit of monkey wrench here -- but I have question.

Was America founded on Christian/Judeo principles or was it founded on something else, but the influence of many of it's citizens who held to Christian principles gave it it's moral character?

There is a difference.

The idea in many Christian's minds today, is if we could just get Christians into government and pass Christian laws, America would be great again. But isn't that exactly what prophecy says will happen and it will be the ruin of America?


Good question. For a short answer go and read my last post to kland in the "Crucifix with Jesus hanging on cross hate crime?" thread. I quote a fair amount out of the first chapter of Alexis de Toqueville's book, American Institutions and Their Influence. For a longer answer download and read the book. It's free from a variety of sources. I got it from the Gutenberg Project.

For a very short answer, de Toqueville thought that the religion of the Pilgrims and their political ideals, which were the basis for our form of government, were inseparable.

To me the answer is pretty clear. Let me know what you think.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184550
07/15/17 11:24 PM
07/15/17 11:24 PM
dedication  Offline
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Now it's true that the Puritans and other Christian groups that fled the old country to find religious freedom in America had a tremendous influence on America's development. The Christian climate was strong. However, the Puritans had not yet accepted a true sense of "religious liberty". You wouldn't enjoy life in their colony if you didn't keep Sunday, or if you were a Quaker or some other religion that differed from theirs.

If you wanted religious liberty you had to go to Roger Williams' colony.

But those were just colonies, when talking about the actual forming of the US government we find a different ideology entering into the picture. The Pilgrims did not found the United States.

When we study history we find that the Revolutionary War and the nation's government were structured by the tenets of Freemasonry, not God's Word.

This was the age of the revolutions.
Some of the same freemasonry minds that helped instigate the French Revolution, also helped instigate the American Revolution.
Men like -- Lafayette, French liaison to the Colonies, was a Freemason.

Thomas Paine was an English American writer whose "Common Sense" and other writings influenced the American Revolution, and helped pave the way for the Declaration of Independence. Yet he was an infidel, and even shows up in EGW writings as an agent of Satan! Yet he used the Bible -- which deceives many into thinking he was a Christian.

Thomas Jefferson was an American Founding Father who was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence and later served as the third President of the United States, but he was a deist with Masonic connections.

George Washington a high level Mason, was very involved with that society. The laying of the corner stone of America's capital was done in full Masonic ritual with G. Washington in Masonic dress.

People confuse masonry with Christianity because it uses some of the same language, but masonry is not Christian.

Yes, it brought freedom of religion --
Banishing the power of any church gaining control of government and coercing the whole society to worship in what they believed was the right way to worship.
It taught self government and moral responsibility.

This freedom of worship allowed Christianity to prosper in it's various forms, and this also greatly influenced American culture. It was truly a gift worked out for this country by God.

IF the Christians had largely maintained their integrity and commitment to God's law, then freedom of religion would have continued to be a great blessing.
It was the Christian influence that made it work.

But two things have happened --
Christianity has lost it's influence, one reason is because they attacked God's law, nailed it to the cross, in order to avoid the true Sabbath.
Secondly the masonic side of the equation has gained the upper hand in society --

America will yet reap the results that befell France

..."anarchy is seeking to sweep away all law, not only divine, but human. The centralizing of wealth and power; the vast combinations for the enriching of the few at the expense of the many; the combinations of the poorer classes for the defense of their interests and claims; the spirit of unrest, of riot and bloodshed; the world-wide dissemination of the same teachings that led to the French Revolution--all are tending to involve the whole world in a struggle similar to that which convulsed France. {Ed 228.2}


Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184551
07/15/17 11:36 PM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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dedication,

What was the difference between the French revolution and the revolution of the American colonies? There is a very large difference.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184552
07/15/17 11:47 PM
07/15/17 11:47 PM
dedication  Offline
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The difference that I see, was the Christian influence.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184553
07/15/17 11:54 PM
07/15/17 11:54 PM
dedication  Offline
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In the French revolution the "Christian influence" was that of the Catholic tyrannical nature. The protestants had been cruelly massacred (Bartholomew massacre being the worst) by the church, but that was just one in many. Protestantism was basically driven out of France.
The lessons taught by the "church" were well learnt. And the "church" itself reaped the results in the revolution.

In America the Protestant influence was strong.
It countered the "evil" of masonry, and thus the principles of self government and liberties worked.

But still America was not founded as a Christian nation. It was founded as a "free nation". What it needs is revival in the churches to regain it's influence on culture in general, it does not need an enforcement of Christianity by government (not that I'm suggesting that you are recommending that, as I don't believe you are, but there are a lot of people who are)

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184554
07/16/17 12:45 AM
07/16/17 12:45 AM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Here is what I said earlier about the foundation of our form of government, only said much better than I can say it.

Quote:
After the birth of a human being, his early years are obscurely spent in the toils or pleasures of childhood. As he grows up, the world receives him, when his manhood begins, and he enters into contact with his fellows. He is then studied for the first time, and it is imagined that the germe of the vices and the virtues of his maturer years is then formed.
This, if I am not mistaken, is a great error. We must begin higher up; we must watch the infant in his mother's arms; we must see the first images which the external world casts upon the dark mirror of his mind; the first occurrences which he beholds; we must hear the first words which awaken the sleeping powers of thought, and stand by his earliest efforts, if we would understand the prejudices, the habits, and the passions, which will rule his life. The entire man is, so to speak, to be seen in the cradle of the child.
The growth of nations presents something analogous to this; they all bear some marks of their origin; and the circumstances which accompanied their birth and contributed to their rise, affect the whole term of their being.
If we were able to go back to the elements of states, and to examine the oldest monuments of their history, I doubt not that we should discover the primary cause of the prejudices, the habits, the ruling passions, and in short of all that constitutes what is called the national character: we should then find the explanation of certain customs which now seem at variance with prevailing manners, of such laws as conflict with established principles, and of such incoherent opinions as are here and there to be met with in society, like those fragments of broken chains which we sometimes see hanging from the vault of an edifice, and supporting nothing. This might explain the destinies of certain nations which seem borne along by an unknown force to ends of which they themselves are ignorant. But hitherto facts have been wanting to researches of this kind: the spirit of inquiry has only come upon communities in their latter days; and when they at length turned their attention to contemplate their origin, time had already obscured it, or ignorance and pride adorned it with truth-concealing fables.
America is the only country in which it has been possible to study the natural and tranquil growth of society, and where the influence exercised on the future condition of states by their origin is clearly distinguishable.


This is the beginning of the second chapter of the book I quoted above.

Notice how de Toqueville is in agreement with Ellen White as to how much the influence of the formative years of the child affects what the man later becomes. He ties this directly to the how the religion and politics found in New England--the Pilgrims--affected the formation of the US.

What I have been saying so far does not include the southern colonies, for it is there that a far different condition existed. There aristocracy ruled, morality was basically non-existent. No sooner were the southern colonies formed than slavery was introduced there. There the lower classes, the slaves, adventurers and the deported criminals from England were settled.

But, it was not from the south that our form of government was created. Yes, it had influence for before the constitution would be accepted by the south there were political compromises made or there would have never been a United States.

Ben Franklin is often said to be very irreligious, very secular. Let me give you a quote of what he said during the debates that took place during the framing of the constitution.

Quote:
We have arrived, Mr. President . . . at a very momentous and interesting crisis in our deliberations. Hitherto our views have been as harmonious, and our progress as great as could reasonably have been expected. But now an unlooked for and formidable obstacle is thrown in our way, which threatens to arrest our course, and, if not skillfully removed, to render all our fond hopes of a constitution abortive.

It is, however, to be feared that the members of this Convention are not in a temper, at this moment, to approach the subject in which we differ, in this spirit. I would, therefore, propose, Mr. President, that, without proceeding further in this business at this time, the Convention shall adjourn for three days, in order to let the present ferment pass off, and to afford time for a more full, free, and dispassionate investigation of the subject; and I would earnestly recommend to the members of this Convention, that they spend the time of this recess, not in associating with their own party, and devising new arguments to fortify themselves in their old opinions, but that they mix with members of opposite sentiments, lend a patient ear to their reasonings, and candidly allow them all the weight to which they may be entitled; and when we assemble again, I hope it will be with a determination to form a constitution, if not such an one as we can individually, and in all respects, approve, yet the best, which, under existing circumstances, can be obtained.

Before I sit down, Mr. President, I will suggest another matter; and I am really surprised that it has not been proposed by some other member at an earlier period of our deliberations. I will suggest, Mr. President, that propriety of nominating and appointing, before we separate, a chaplain to this Convention, whose duty it shall be uniformly to assemble with us, and introduce the business of each day by and address to the Creator of the universe, and the Governor of all nations, beseeching Him to preside in our council, enlighten our minds with a portion of heavenly wisdom, influence our hearts with a love of truth and justice, and crown our labors with complete and abundant success!


What follows are a couple more of Ben Franklin quotes. The first one comes from a pamphlet he wrote and published.

Quote:
May the God of wisdom, strength, and power, the Lord of the armies of Israel, inspire us with prudence in this time of danger, take away from us all the seeds of contention and division, and unite the hearts and counsels of all of us, of whatever sect or nation, in one bond of peace, brotherly love, and generous public spirit; may he give us strength and resolution to amend our lives, and remove from among us every thing that is displeasing to him; afford us his most gracious protection, confound the designs of our enemies, and give peace in all our borders, is the sincere prayer of
A TRADESMAN of Philadelphia.


This quote comes from Franklin's autobiography.

Quote:
And now I speak of thanking God, I desire with all humility to acknowledge that I owe the mentioned happiness of my past life to His kind providence, which lead me to the means I used and gave them success. My belief of this induces me to hope, though I must not presume, that the same goodness will still be exercised toward me, in continuing that happiness, or enabling me to bear a fatal reverse, which I may experience as others have done; the complexion of my future fortune being known to Him only in whose power it is to bless to us even our afflictions.


I will also say that almost to a man the founding fathers of the US said God was responsible for the success of the revolutionary war.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: dedication] #184555
07/16/17 12:56 AM
07/16/17 12:56 AM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication
In the French revolution the "Christian influence" was that of the Catholic tyrannical nature. The protestants had been cruelly massacred (Bartholomew massacre being the worst) by the church, but that was just one in many. Protestantism was basically driven out of France.
The lessons taught by the "church" were well learnt. And the "church" itself reaped the results in the revolution.

In America the Protestant influence was strong.
It countered the "evil" of masonry, and thus the principles of self government and liberties worked.

But still America was not founded as a Christian nation. It was founded as a "free nation". What it needs is revival in the churches to regain it's influence on culture in general, it does not need an enforcement of Christianity by government (not that I'm suggesting that you are recommending that, as I don't believe you are, but there are a lot of people who are)


Umm... The French Revolution deified the Goddess of Reason. The French revolution was the impetus for what has come to be known as rationalism, which denies miracles, the divinity of Christ, the inspiration by the Holy Spirit of the prophets of the Bible, etc.... Catholicism, as was all religion, was execrated by the leaders of the that revolution. These men were all anti-God.

The difference between the two revolutions was the Americans welcomed God and the French denied Him and all He stands for.

A very good small book on this by a Millerite is The Origin, Nature, and Influence of Neology. The author is N.N. Whiting.
Here is a link to an online copy at the EGW Estate. https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/1467.2#0

The first 30 or so pages of the book outline this history.

Last edited by Gary K; 07/16/17 12:58 AM.
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184557
07/16/17 01:00 AM
07/16/17 01:00 AM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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dedication,

Being founded as a Christian nation, and being founded on Christian principles are two different things. I have never said the US was founded as a Christian nation. I have always said the latter. That's the same thing de Toqueville is saying in his book.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184558
07/16/17 01:48 AM
07/16/17 01:48 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: dedication
In the French revolution the "Christian influence" was that of the Catholic tyrannical nature. The protestants had been cruelly massacred (Bartholomew massacre being the worst) by the church, but that was just one in many. Protestantism was basically driven out of France.
The lessons taught by the "church" were well learnt. And the "church" itself reaped the results in the revolution.

In America the Protestant influence was strong.
It countered the "evil" of masonry, and thus the principles of self government and liberties worked.

But still America was not founded as a Christian nation. It was founded as a "free nation". What it needs is revival in the churches to regain it's influence on culture in general, it does not need an enforcement of Christianity by government (not that I'm suggesting that you are recommending that, as I don't believe you are, but there are a lot of people who are)


Umm... The French Revolution deified the Goddess of Reason. The French revolution was the impetus for what has come to be known as rationalism, which denies miracles, the divinity of Christ, the inspiration by the Holy Spirit of the prophets of the Bible, etc.... Catholicism, as was all religion, was execrated by the leaders of the that revolution. These men were all anti-God.

The difference between the two revolutions was the Americans welcomed God and the French denied Him and all He stands for.


I guess I wasn't clear enough.
The Christian influence that the French people knew was that of the tyrannical Catholic church.

It's true the revolutionists throw off all christianity, and I did state that the "church" reaped the results of the lessons she had taught.

It was the church that banned the Bible from the general population and murdered those who dared proclaim the truths found in it's pages. They taught the lessons that bore fruit in the revolution.

True, the revolution, revolted against Christianity, they threw out the true with the false.

But remember:

Quote:
The war against the Bible, carried forward for so many centuries in France, culminated in the scenes of the Revolution. That terrible outbreaking was but the legitimate result of Rome's suppression of the Scriptures. It presented the most striking illustration which the world has ever witnessed of the working out of the papal policy-- an illustration of the results to which for more than a thousand
years the teaching of the Roman Church had been tending. {GC 265.2}

It was popery that had begun the work which atheism was completing. The policy of Rome had wrought out those conditions, social, political, and religious, that were hurrying France on to ruin. A writer, speaking of the horrors of the Revolution, says: “Those excesses are in truth to be charged upon the throne and the church.” In strict justice they are to be charged upon the church. Popery had poisoned the minds of kings against the Reformation, as an enemy to the crown, an element of discord that would be fatal to the peace and harmony of the nation. It was the genius of Rome that by this means inspired the direst cruelty and the most galling oppression which proceeded from the throne. {GC88 276.4}

The spirit of liberty went with the Bible. Wherever the gospel was received, the minds of the people were awakened. They began to cast off the shackles that had held them bondslaves of ignorance, vice, and superstition. They began to think and act as men. Monarchs saw it, and trembled for their despotism. Rome was not slow to inflame their jealous fears. {GC88 277.1}

..blind and inexorable bigotry chased from her soil every teacher of virtue, every champion of order, every honest defender of the throne; it said to the men who would have made their country a ‘renown and glory’ in the earth, Choose which you will have, a stake or exile. At last the ruin of the State was complete; there remained no more conscience to be proscribed; no more religion to be dragged to the stake; no more patriotism to be chased into banishment.” And the Revolution, with all its horrors, was the dire result. {GC88 278.2}



Quote:
...the Albigenses of France...The brave Huguenots..The Protestants were counted as outlaws, a price was set upon their heads, and they were hunted down like wild beasts. {GC 271.2}
... But blackest in the black catalogue of crime, most horrible among the fiendish deeds of all the dreadful centuries, was the St. Bartholomew Massacre...Seventy thousand of the very flower of the nation perished. {GC 272.2}

All too well the people had learned the lessons of cruelty and torture which Rome had so diligently taught. A day of retribution at last had come. It was not now the disciples of Jesus that were thrust into dungeons and dragged to the stake. Long ago these had perished or been driven into exile. Unsparing Rome now felt the deadly power of those whom she had trained to delight in deeds of blood. GC 283

Unhappy France reaped in blood the harvest she had sown. Terrible were the results of her submission to the controlling power of Rome. Where France, under the influence of Romanism, had set up the first stake at the opening of the Reformation, there the Revolution set up its first guillotine. On the very spot where the first martyrs to the Protestant faith were burned in the sixteenth century, the first victims were guillotined in the eighteenth. In repelling the gospel, which would have brought her healing, France had opened the door to infidelity and ruin. When the restraints of God's law were cast aside, it was found that the laws of man were inadequate to hold in check the powerful tides of human passion; and the nation swept on to revolt and anarchy. The war against the Bible inaugurated an era which stands in the world's history as the Reign of Terror. Peace and happiness were banished from the homes and hearts of men. {GC 282

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184559
07/16/17 01:51 AM
07/16/17 01:51 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
dedication,

Being founded as a Christian nation, and being founded on Christian principles are two different things. I have never said the US was founded as a Christian nation. I have always said the latter. That's the same thing de Toqueville is saying in his book.


Thanks for clarifying.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184560
07/16/17 01:52 AM
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dedication,

What follows are a series of quotes from the writings of John Adams, one of our founding fathers.

Quote:
It would be unbecoming the representatives of this nation to assemble for the first time in this solemn temple without looking up to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe and imploring His blessing.

May this territory be the residence of virtue and happiness! In this city may that piety and virtue, that wisdom and magnanimity, that constancy and self-government, which adorned the great character whose name it bears be forever held in veneration! Here and throughout our country may simple manners, pure morals, and true religion flourish forever!

John Adams State of the Union Address November 11, 1800


Philadelphia, 16 September, 1774.

Having a leisure moment, while the Congress is assembling, I gladly embrace it to write you a line.

When the Congress first met, Mr. Cushing made a motion that it should be opened with prayer. It was opposed by Mr. Jay, of New York, and Mr. Rutledge, of South Carolina, because we were so divided in religious sentiments, some Episcopalians, some Quakers, some Anabaptists, some Presbyterians, and some Congregationalists, that we could not join in the same act of worship. Mr. Samuel Adams arose and said he was no bigot, and could hear a prayer from a gentleman of piety and virtue, who was at the same time a friend to his country. He was a stranger in Philadelphia, but had heard that Mr. Duché (Dushay they pronounce it) deserved that character, and therefore he moved that Mr. Duché, an Episcopal clergyman, might be desired to read prayers to the Congress, to-morrow morning. The motion was seconded and passed in the affirmative. Mr. Randolph, our president, waited on Mr. Duché, and received for answer that if his health would permit he certainly would. Accordingly, next morning he appeared with his clerk and in his pontificals, and read several prayers in the established form; and then read the Collect for the seventh day of September, which was the thirty-fifth Psalm. You must remember this was the next morning after we heard the horrible rumor of the cannonade of Boston. I never saw a greater effect upon an audience. It seemed as if Heaven had ordained that Psalm to be read on that morning.

After this, Mr. Duché, unexpected to everybody, struck out into an extemporary prayer, which filled the bosom of every man present. I must confess I never beard a better prayer, or one so well pronounced. Episcopalian as he is, Dr. Cooper himself[54] never prayed with such fervor, such ardor, such earnestness and pathos, and in language so elegant and sublime—for America, for the Congress, for the Province of Massachusetts Bay, and especially the town of Boston. It has had an excellent effect upon everybody here. I must beg you to read that Psalm. If there was any faith in the Sortes Biblicæ, it would be thought providential.

It will amuse your friends to read this letter and the thirty-fifth Psalm to them. Read it to your father and Mr. Wibird. I wonder what our Braintree Churchmen will think of this! Mr. Duché is one of the most ingenious men, and best characters, and greatest orators in the Episcopal order, upon this continent. Yet a zealous friend of Liberty and his country.[55]

I long to see my dear family. God bless, preserve, and prosper it. Adieu.


Philadelphia, 11 June, 1775.

I have been this morning to hear Mr. Duffield, a preacher in this city, whose principles, prayers, and sermons more nearly resemble those of our New England clergy than any that I have heard. His discourse was a kind of exposition on the thirty-fifth chapter of Isaiah. America was the wilderness, and the solitary place, and he said it would be glad, "rejoice and blossom as the rose." He labored "to strengthen the weak hands and confirm the feeble knees." He "said to them that were of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not. Behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompense; he will come and save you," "No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, but the redeemed shall walk there," etc. He applied the whole prophecy to this country, and gave us as animating an entertainment as I ever heard. He filled and swelled the bosom of every hearer. I hope you have received a letter, in which I inclosed you a pastoral letter from the synod of New York and Philadelphia; by this you will see, that the clergy this way are but now beginning to engage in politics, and they engage with a fervor that will produce wonderful effects.


The following is a note from Abigail Adams, John Adams' wife, to John Quincy Adams on the day he became President.

Quote:
“Quincy, 8 February, 1797.
“The sun is dressed in brightest beams
To give thy honors to the day.”
“And may it prove an auspicious prelude to each ensuing season. You have this day to declare yourself head of a nation. ‘And now, O Lord, my God, thou hast made thy servant ruler over the people. Give unto him an understanding heart, that he may know how to go out and come in before this great people; that he may discern between good and bad. For who is able to judge this thy so great a people?’ were the words of a royal sovereign; and not less applicable to him who is invested with the chief magistracy of a nation, though he wear not the crown, nor the robes of royalty.

“My thoughts and my meditations are with you, though personally absent; and my petitions to Heaven are that ‘the things which make for peace may not be hidden from your eyes.’ My feelings are not those of pride or ostentation upon the occasion. They are solemnized by a sense of the obligations, the important trusts and numerous duties connected with it. That you may be enabled to discharge them with honor to yourself, with justice and impartiality to your country, and with satisfaction to this great people, shall be the daily prayer of your A. A.”


Here is a quote from John Adams diary.

Quote:
31. Saturday. The nature and essence of the material world is not less concealed from our knowledge than the nature and essence of God. We see ourselves surrounded on all sides with a vast expanse of heavens, and we feel ourselves astonished at the grandeur, the blazing pomp of those stars with which it is adorned. The birds fly over our heads and our fellow animals labor and sport around us; the trees wave and murmur in the winds; the clouds float and shine on high; the surging billows rise in the sea, and ships break through the tempest; here rises a spacious city, and yonder is spread out an extensive plain. These objects are so common and familiar that we think ourselves fully acquainted with them; but these are only effects and properties; the substance from whence they flow is hid from us in impenetrable obscurity.

God is said to be self-existent, and that therefore he must have existed from eternity, and throughout immensity. God exists by an absolute necessity in his own nature; that is, it implies a contradiction to suppose him not to exist. To ask what this necessity is, is as if you should ask what the necessity of the equality between twice two and four is; twice two are necessarily in their own nature equal to four, not only here, but in every point of space; not only now, but in every point of duration. In the same manner God necessarily exists, not only here, but throughout unlimited space; not only now, but throughout [27] all duration, past and future. We observe in the animate and in the inanimate creation a surprising diversity and a surprising uniformity. Of inanimate substances there is a great variety, from the pebble in the streets quite up to the vegetables in the forest; of animals there is no less a variety of species, from the animalcula, that escape our naked sight, quite through the intermediate kinds up to elephants, horses, men. Yet, notwithstanding this variety, there is, from the highest species of animals upon this globe, which is generally thought to be man, a regular and uniform subordination of one tribe to another, down to the apparently insignificant animalcules in pepper water; and the same subordination continues quite through the vegetable kingdom. And it is worth observing that each species regularly and uniformly preserve all their essential and peculiar properties without partaking of the peculiar properties of others. We do not see chickens hatched with fins to swim; nor fishes spawned with wings to fly; we do not see a colt foaled with claws like a bird, nor man with the clothing or armor which his reason renders him capable of procuring for himself. Every species has its distinguishing properties, and every individual that is born has all those properties without any of the distinguishing properties of another species. What now can preserve this prodigious variety of species and this inflexible uniformity among the individuals but the continual and vigilant providence of God?

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: dedication] #184561
07/16/17 02:02 AM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: dedication
In the French revolution the "Christian influence" was that of the Catholic tyrannical nature. The protestants had been cruelly massacred (Bartholomew massacre being the worst) by the church, but that was just one in many. Protestantism was basically driven out of France.
The lessons taught by the "church" were well learnt. And the "church" itself reaped the results in the revolution.

In America the Protestant influence was strong.
It countered the "evil" of masonry, and thus the principles of self government and liberties worked.

But still America was not founded as a Christian nation. It was founded as a "free nation". What it needs is revival in the churches to regain it's influence on culture in general, it does not need an enforcement of Christianity by government (not that I'm suggesting that you are recommending that, as I don't believe you are, but there are a lot of people who are)


Umm... The French Revolution deified the Goddess of Reason. The French revolution was the impetus for what has come to be known as rationalism, which denies miracles, the divinity of Christ, the inspiration by the Holy Spirit of the prophets of the Bible, etc.... Catholicism, as was all religion, was execrated by the leaders of the that revolution. These men were all anti-God.

The difference between the two revolutions was the Americans welcomed God and the French denied Him and all He stands for.


I guess I wasn't clear enough.
The Christian influence that the French people knew was that of the tyrannical Catholic church.

It's true the revolutionists throw off all christianity, and I did state that the "church" reaped the results of the lessons she had taught.

It was the church that banned the Bible from the general population and murdered those who dared proclaim the truths found in it's pages. They taught the lessons that bore fruit in the revolution.

True, the revolution, revolted against Christianity, they threw out the true with the false.

But remember:

Quote:
The war against the Bible, carried forward for so many centuries in France, culminated in the scenes of the Revolution. That terrible outbreaking was but the legitimate result of Rome's suppression of the Scriptures. It presented the most striking illustration which the world has ever witnessed of the working out of the papal policy-- an illustration of the results to which for more than a thousand
years the teaching of the Roman Church had been tending. {GC 265.2}

It was popery that had begun the work which atheism was completing. The policy of Rome had wrought out those conditions, social, political, and religious, that were hurrying France on to ruin. A writer, speaking of the horrors of the Revolution, says: “Those excesses are in truth to be charged upon the throne and the church.” In strict justice they are to be charged upon the church. Popery had poisoned the minds of kings against the Reformation, as an enemy to the crown, an element of discord that would be fatal to the peace and harmony of the nation. It was the genius of Rome that by this means inspired the direst cruelty and the most galling oppression which proceeded from the throne. {GC88 276.4}

The spirit of liberty went with the Bible. Wherever the gospel was received, the minds of the people were awakened. They began to cast off the shackles that had held them bondslaves of ignorance, vice, and superstition. They began to think and act as men. Monarchs saw it, and trembled for their despotism. Rome was not slow to inflame their jealous fears. {GC88 277.1}

..blind and inexorable bigotry chased from her soil every teacher of virtue, every champion of order, every honest defender of the throne; it said to the men who would have made their country a ‘renown and glory’ in the earth, Choose which you will have, a stake or exile. At last the ruin of the State was complete; there remained no more conscience to be proscribed; no more religion to be dragged to the stake; no more patriotism to be chased into banishment.” And the Revolution, with all its horrors, was the dire result. {GC88 278.2}



Quote:
...the Albigenses of France...The brave Huguenots..The Protestants were counted as outlaws, a price was set upon their heads, and they were hunted down like wild beasts. {GC 271.2}
... But blackest in the black catalogue of crime, most horrible among the fiendish deeds of all the dreadful centuries, was the St. Bartholomew Massacre...Seventy thousand of the very flower of the nation perished. {GC 272.2}

All too well the people had learned the lessons of cruelty and torture which Rome had so diligently taught. A day of retribution at last had come. It was not now the disciples of Jesus that were thrust into dungeons and dragged to the stake. Long ago these had perished or been driven into exile. Unsparing Rome now felt the deadly power of those whom she had trained to delight in deeds of blood. GC 283

Unhappy France reaped in blood the harvest she had sown. Terrible were the results of her submission to the controlling power of Rome. Where France, under the influence of Romanism, had set up the first stake at the opening of the Reformation, there the Revolution set up its first guillotine. On the very spot where the first martyrs to the Protestant faith were burned in the sixteenth century, the first victims were guillotined in the eighteenth. In repelling the gospel, which would have brought her healing, France had opened the door to infidelity and ruin. When the restraints of God's law were cast aside, it was found that the laws of man were inadequate to hold in check the powerful tides of human passion; and the nation swept on to revolt and anarchy. The war against the Bible inaugurated an era which stands in the world's history as the Reign of Terror. Peace and happiness were banished from the homes and hearts of men. {GC 282


But the point still stands. The French revolution was completely anti-God. The American revolution was far different. The leaders looked to God for wisdom, understanding, strength, and victory etc.... And they acknowledged that God was the source of their victory. That was the big difference.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184562
07/16/17 02:08 AM
07/16/17 02:08 AM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Here a few short quotes from George Washington. Long quotes from his writings are pretty rare as Martha, for some reason, destroyed all his letters and writings after his death.

Quote:
"I have only been an instrument in the hands of Providence." George Washington

"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible." President George Washington

"The Hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this-the course of the war-that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more wicked that has not gratitude to acknowledge his obligations; but it will be time enough for me to turn Preacher when my present appointment ceases."


And one more.

Quote:
“Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. … [R]eason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

Last edited by Gary K; 07/16/17 02:15 AM.
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184566
07/16/17 04:00 AM
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The following was written by James Madison to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia in 1785. It was titled Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments.
Quote:



We, the subscribers, citizens of the said Commonwealth, having taken into serious consideration, a Bill printed by order of the last Session of General Assembly, entitled “A Bill establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion,” and conceiving [184] that the same, if finally armed with the sanctions of a law, will be a dangerous abuse of power, are bound as faithful members of a free State, to remonstrate against it, and to declare the reasons by which we are determined. We remonstrate against the said Bill,

1. Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, “that Religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the Manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence.”1 The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable; because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds, cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also; because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage, and such only, as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent both in order of time and degree of obligation, to the claims [185] of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, who enters into any subordinate Association, must always do it with a reservation of his duty to the general authority; much more must every man who becomes a member of any particular Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign. We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man’s right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society, and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true, that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority.

2. Because if religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body. The latter are but the creatures and vicegerents of the former. Their jurisdiction is both derivative and limited: it is limited with regard to the co-ordinate departments, more necessarily is it limited with regard to the constituents. The preservation of a free government requires not merely, that the metes and bounds which separate each department of power may be invariably maintained; but more especially, that neither of them be suffered to overleap the great Barrier which defends the rights of the people. The Rulers who are guilty of such an encroachment, exceed the commission from which they derive their authority, and are Tyrants. The People who submit to it are governed by laws made neither by themselves, nor by an authority derived from them, and are slaves.

3. Because, it is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of citizens, and one of [the] noblest characteristics of the late Revolution. The freemen of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the [186] principle. We revere this lesson too much, soon to forget it. Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?

4. Because, the bill violates that equality which ought to be the basis of every law, and which is more indispensible, in proportion as the validity or expediency of any law is more liable to be impeached. If “all men are by nature equally free and independent,”1 all men are to be considered as entering into Society on equal conditions; as relinquishing no more, and therefore retaining no less, one than another, of their natural rights. Above all are they to be considered as retaining an “equal title to the free exercise of Religion according to the dictates of conscience.”2 Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and to observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us. If this freedom be abused, it is an offence against God, not against man: To God, therefore, not to men, must an account of it be rendered. As the Bill violates equality by subjecting some to peculiar burdens; so it violates the same principle, by granting to others peculiar exemptions. Are the Quakers and Menonists the only sects who think a compulsive support of their religions unnecessary and unwarantable? Can their piety alone be intrusted with the care of public worship? Ought their Religions to be endowed above all others, with extraordinary privileges, by which proselytes may be enticed from all others? We think too favorably of the justice and good sense of these denominations, to believe that they either covet pre-eminencies over their fellow citizens, or that they will be seduced by them, from the common opposition to the measure.

[187]
5. Because the bill implies either that the Civil Magistrate is a competent Judge of Religious truth; or that he may employ Religion as an engine of Civil policy. The first is an arrogant pretension falsified by the contradictory opinions of Rulers in all ages, and throughout the world: The second an unhallowed perversion of the means of salvation.

6. Because the establishment proposed by the Bill is not requisite for the support of the Christian Religion. To say that it is, is a contradiction to the Christian Religion itself; for every page of it disavows a dependence on the powers of this world: it is a contradiction to fact; for it is known that this Religion both existed and flourished, not only without the support of human laws, but in spite of every opposition from them; and not only during the period of miraculous aid, but long after it had been left to its own evidence, and the ordinary care of Providence: Nay, it is a contradiction in terms; for a Religion not invented by human policy, must have pre-existed and been supported, before it was established by human policy. It is moreover to weaken in those who profess this Religion a pious confidence in its innate excellence, and the patronage of its Author; and to foster in those who still reject it, a suspicion that its friends are too conscious of its fallacies, to trust it to its own merits.

7. Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries, has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest lustre; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy. Propose a restoration of this primitive state in which its Teachers depended on the voluntary rewards of their flocks; many of them predict its downfall. On which side ought their testimony to have greatest weight, when for or when against their interest?

[188]
8. Because the establishment in question is not necessary for the support of Civil Government. If it be urged as necessary for the support of Civil Government only as it is a means of supporting Religion, and it be not necessary for the latter purpose, it cannot be necessary for the former. If Religion be not within [the] cognizance of Civil Government, how can its legal establishment be said to be necessary to civil Government? What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure & perpetuate it, needs them not. Such a government will be best supported by protecting every citizen in the enjoyment of his Religion with the same equal hand which protects his person and his property; by neither invading the equal rights of any Sect, nor suffering any Sect to invade those of another.

9. Because the proposed establishment is a departure from that generous policy, which, offering an asylum to the persecuted and oppressed of every Nation and Religion, promised a lustre to our country, and an accession to the number of its citizens. What a melancholy mark is the Bill of sudden degeneracy? Instead of holding forth an asylum to the persecuted, it is itself a signal of persecution. It degrades from the equal rank of Citizens all those whose opinions in Religion do not bend to those of the Legislative authority. Distant as it may be, in its present form, from the Inquisition it differs from it only in degree. The one is the first step, the other the last in the career of intolerance. The magnanimous sufferer under this cruel scourge in foreign Regions, must view the Bill as a Beacon on our Coast, warning him to seek some other haven, where liberty and philanthrophy in their due extent may offer a more certain repose from his troubles.

10. Because, it will have a like tendency to banish our Citizens. The allurements presented by other situations are [189] every day thinning their number. To superadd a fresh motive to emigration, by revoking the liberty which they now enjoy, would be the same species of folly which has dishonoured and depopulated flourishing kingdoms.

11. Because, it will destroy that moderation and harmony which the forbearance of our laws to intermeddle with Religion, has produced amongst its several sects. Torrents of blood have been spilt in the old world, by vain attempts of the secular arm to extinguish Religious discord, by proscribing all difference in Religious opinions. Time has at length revealed the true remedy. Every relaxation of narrow and rigorous policy, wherever it has been tried, has been found to assuage the disease. The American Theatre has exhibited proofs, that equal and compleat liberty, if it does not wholly eradicate it, sufficiently destroys its malignant influence on the health and prosperity of the State. If with the salutary effects of this system under our own eyes, we begin to contract the bonds of Religious freedom, we know no name that will too severely reproach our folly. At least let warning be taken at the first fruits of the threatened innovation. The very appearance of the Bill has transformed that “Christian forbearance,1 love and charity,” which of late mutually prevailed, into animosities and jealousies, which may not soon be appeased. What mischiefs may not be dreaded should this enemy to the public quiet be armed with the force of a law?

12. Because, the policy of the bill is adverse to the diffusion of the light of Christianity. The first wish of those who enjoy this precious gift, ought to be that it may be imparted to the whole race of mankind. Compare the number of those who have as yet received it with the number still remaining under the dominion of false Religions; and how small is the former! Does the policy of the Bill tend to lessen the disproportion? No; it at once discourages those who are strangers to the light of [revelation] from coming into the Region of it; and countenances, by example the nations who continue in darkness, in shutting out those who might convey it to them. Instead of [190] levelling as far as possible, every obstacle to the victorious progress of truth, the Bill with an ignoble and unchristian timidity would circumscribe it, with a wall of defence, against the encroachments of error.

13. Because attempts to enforce by legal sanctions, acts obnoxious to so great a proportion of Citizens, tend to enervate the laws in general, and to slacken the bands of Society. If it be difficult to execute any law which is not generally deemed necessary or salutary, what must be the case where it is deemed invalid and dangerous? and what may be the effect of so striking an example of impotency in the Government, on its general authority.

14. Because a measure of such singular magnitude and delicacy ought not to be imposed, without the clearest evidence that it is called for by a majority of citizens: and no satisfactory method is yet proposed by which the voice of the majority in this case may be determined, or its influence secured. “The people of the respective counties are indeed requested to signify their opinion respecting the adoption of the Bill to the next Session of Assembly.” But the representation must be made equal, before the voice either of the Representatives or of the Counties, will be that of the people. Our hope is that neither of the former will, after due consideration, espouse the dangerous principle of the Bill. Should the event disappoint us, it will still leave us in full confidence, that a fair appeal to the latter will reverse the sentence against our liberties.

15. Because, finally, “the equal right of every citizen to the free exercise of his Religion according to the dictates of conscience” is held by the same tenure with all our other rights. If we recur to its origin, it is equally the gift of nature; if we weigh its importance, it cannot be less dear to us; if we consult the Declaration of those rights which pertain to the good people of Virginia, as the “basis and foundation of Government,”1 it is enumerated with equal solemnity, or rather studied emphasis. Either then, we must say, that the will of the Legislature is the only measure of their authority; and that in the plenitude of this [191] authority, they may sweep away all our fundamental rights; or, that they are bound to leave this particular right untouched and sacred: Either we must say, that they may controul the freedom of the press, may abolish the trial by jury, may swallow up the Executive and Judiciary Powers of the State; nay that they may despoil us of our very right of suffrage, and erect themselves into an independant and hereditary assembly: or we must say, that they have no authority to enact into law the Bill under consideration. We the subscribers say, that the General Assembly of this Commonwealth have no such authority: And that no effort may be omitted on our part against so dangerous an usurpation, we oppose to it, this remonstrance; earnestly praying, as we are in duty bound, that the Supreme Lawgiver of the Universe, by illuminating those to whom it is addressed, may on the one hand, turn their councils from every act which would affront his holy prerogative, or violate the trust committed to them: and on the other, guide them into every measure which may be worthy of his [blessing, may re]dound to their own praise, and may establish more firmly the liberties, the prosperity, and the Happiness of the Commonwealth.

Last edited by Gary K; 07/16/17 04:01 AM.
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184570
07/16/17 04:37 AM
07/16/17 04:37 AM
dedication  Offline
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These men did have conviction, belief in a supreme Being, and a much higher standard of morality than what is seen today.

They did give America a government that surpassed everything that went before it, and I do believe God's hand was in it.

But that doesn't change the fact they were both freemasons, and deeply into that society. A society that has a dark side, as well some good principles.

Freemasonry was the first widespread and well-connected organization to espouse religious toleration and liberty.
It wasn't Christians that brought that in, as you can see in the laws of Connecticut which you posted on another thread.

Freemasonry believes in a "sovereign ruler".
However, it is highly discouraged to invoke the name of Jesus when praying, or mention His name in the Lodge. For someone to say that Jesus is the only way to God contradicts the principle of tolerance. Jesus is on the same level as other historical religious leaders. Salvation is not through Jesus, but through morality.
The Bible is regarded as a great religious book, but so is the Koran and other revered religious books.

Quote:
Washington and other early American Freemasons rejected a European past in which one overarching authority regulated the exchange of ideas. And this outlook is found in one of the greatest symbols associated with Freemasonry: The eye-and-pyramid of the Great Seal of the United States, familiar today from the back of the dollar bill.
The Great Seal's design began on July 4th, 1776, on an order from the Continental Congress and under the direction of Benjamin Franklin (another Freemason), Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams.
The Latin maxim that surrounds the unfinished pyramid—Annuit Coeptis Novus Ordo Seclorum—can be roughly, if poetically, translated as: "God Smiles on Our New Order of the Ages." It is Masonic philosophy to the core: The pyramid, or worldly achievement, is incomplete without the blessing of Providence. And this polity of man and God, as Masonry saw it, required a break with the religious order of the Old World and a renewed search for universal truth. In its symbols and ideas, Masonry conveyed a sense that something new was being born in America: that the individual's conscience was beyond denominational affiliation or government command.


There's a book:

Letters on Freemasonry
by John Quincy Adams (Author)

He definitely believed in a sovereign God as all freemasons do -- but was it the masonic idea of "god" or the Christian God?
He speaks much about the sovereign God, the protection of God, both private and national, the plan of God especially for America, the grand design of God. But does he ever speak of the gospel and of Jesus Christ our Savior?

George Washington

The evidence that he was a high ranking freemason is well known.


Now if you show me where they expressed their belief in Jesus Christ our Savior -- that would be better evidence that they were Christians.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: dedication] #184575
07/16/17 05:35 AM
07/16/17 05:35 AM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Well, the freemasons love to count George Washington as a member. Who wouldn't have wanted George Washington's name associated with them? However, Washington only attended 4 freemason meetings during his lifetime even though he joined at age 20. He was made the leader of a lodge near his home, but that was at the request of the lodge due to his fame.

As to his belief in Jesus as his Savior:
Quote:
“O eternal and everlasting God…Increase my faith in the gospels…daily frame me more and more into the likeness of thy son Jesus Christ, that living in thy fear, and dying in thy favor, I may in thy appointed time attain the resurrection of the just unto eternal life.”


This is found in his prayer journal. It looks like a Christian prayer to me. I have prayed very similar prayers, but instead of using the appellation for God Washington does, I use Father in heaven. I would have to say I would be really hesitant to judge that as a non-Christian prayer given that I live more than 200 years after Washington did and so we may simply have very different ways of addressing God.

The following link is a list of men who signed the declaration of independence. While some do not mention Jesus or His being our Savior, many do.

https://wallbuilders.com/founding-fathers-jesus-christianity-bible/

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184578
07/16/17 08:13 AM
07/16/17 08:13 AM
dedication  Offline
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It's not a matter of judging them as to how much of their belief stemmed from Christianity and how much came from Free Masonry.

There is a lot of evidence that these men were more than just causal visitors to the lodges. They were practicing the craft.

But what is your point in posting all this?

Usually the ones who want to turn these men into devoted Christians do so in the hopes of making America a Christian nation "again" with a "Christian government" --or sacral society.

But you clarified that was not what you were doing. So I'm curious as to why?


The Christians in early America tended to be sacral oriented in their governing, not for freedom of religion at all.
They wanted freedom for THEIR religion, but by their laws, THEIR religion must be accepted by all members of the colony.

Other than Rodger Williams and his Rhode Island colony, there really wasn't much freedom of religion in the Northern Colonies in the early years.

The war of independence and the country's government granting freedoms, didn't really stem from Christian thought, but rather both were motivated and build on principles from the "Age of Reason", which was the foundation of freemasonry. The ideas of Locke are held in high regard by the freemasons.

This "age of reason" and freemasonry, also motivated the French Revolution as pointed out earlier.

When tempered with solid Protestant Christian values, it is a blessing. But when Protestants renounce their Protestantism, and loose their spiritual influence in this freedom, the dark side of freemasonry will surface.

And I think we are seeing that now.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: dedication] #184580
07/16/17 01:52 PM
07/16/17 01:52 PM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication
It's not a matter of judging them as to how much of their belief stemmed from Christianity and how much came from Free Masonry.

There is a lot of evidence that these men were more than just causal visitors to the lodges. They were practicing the craft.

But what is your point in posting all this?

Usually the ones who want to turn these men into devoted Christians do so in the hopes of making America a Christian nation "again" with a "Christian government" --or sacral society.

But you clarified that was not what you were doing. So I'm curious as to why?


The Christians in early America tended to be sacral oriented in their governing, not for freedom of religion at all.
They wanted freedom for THEIR religion, but by their laws, THEIR religion must be accepted by all members of the colony.

Other than Rodger Williams and his Rhode Island colony, there really wasn't much freedom of religion in the Northern Colonies in the early years.

The war of independence and the country's government granting freedoms, didn't really stem from Christian thought, but rather both were motivated and build on principles from the "Age of Reason", which was the foundation of freemasonry. The ideas of Locke are held in high regard by the freemasons.

This "age of reason" and freemasonry, also motivated the French Revolution as pointed out earlier.

When tempered with solid Protestant Christian values, it is a blessing. But when Protestants renounce their Protestantism, and loose their spiritual influence in this freedom, the dark side of freemasonry will surface.

And I think we are seeing that now.




Quote:
Now if you show me where they expressed their belief in Jesus Christ our Savior -- that would be better evidence that they were Christians.


I show it to you and what do you do? Ask me why I'm showing it to you....

It is historical fact that during those days the taverns were the local community gathering places. de Toqueville, when he toured the US for more than a year, says he was astonished at how the entire populace was involved in talking politics on an everyday basis. Everyone followed what was going on and got involved, not like it is today, where only about half even vote and many of those have no real idea as to the issues involved. I wonder how much of the going to the freemason hall was just a part of that. A sort of social gathering spot to discuss politics and to be with peers they had things in common with for these signers of the Declaration of Independence were a group of men who had succeeded in business.

I have studied our history a lot. I have read hundreds of books on the subject over my lifetime. And from what I've read there is a close tie to Christian principles in the founding of our country. To me this is a lot like those who claim Abraham Lincoln was pro slavery because of some of the things he did as President. If you read his actual writings it just isn't true. From his private letters it is very clear that he detested slavery from the very depths of his being. The man was so sensitive to other people's pain, and even the pain of animals, that he would show up late for court sometimes because, even though he knew he would be late, he would stop to help people or animals out of bad situations. His personal integrity was such that I have a very hard time seeing the man doing the manipulation he is accused of. The same holds true in this. Some of these men against whom you make the accusations were men of the highest moral standing of any we have ever seen in this country. And yet you would make all of that a sham. I'm not big believer in people, in fact trust is something I'm not real big on, but after a lifetime of study this just runs against everything I've ever known.

I would have to see, also, the connection between socialism and freemasonry, which is one I have never seen. Why? Because socialism is at the root of the Federal Reserve, the IMF, and the World Bank. These institutions are the ones who are really displaying the signs of evil. They are the ones intentionally bankrupting this world for their own political purposes, and using that money they take from the people to finance the worst of villains/dictators who destroy their own people in their mad lust for power and wealth. They are intentionally taking this world back to a feudal type of system through economic warfare.

In fact, the only people I have ever seen pushing the freemason angle like you do have come from the political left who want to completely sever all ties to morality and Christianity because those things hold back their agenda. And they do what you do to destroy faith in the founding fathers and portray this country as having always been very evil. And it's simply not true. So I have a real built-in resistance to your claims. I would have to see a whole lot more evidence to accept your assertions. It would take a whole lot of documentation to overcome all the documentation I have seen that indicates otherwise.

In this country, in those days, the reality was that the people actually were the ones who held the power. It's not like things are today where politicians do whatever they like and just lie about everything. Then the voters were so educated that a politician just couldn't get away with lying to the voter. They were forced to tell the truth because if they didn't, the voters would kick them out of office.

Last edited by Gary K; 07/16/17 02:03 PM.
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184581
07/16/17 02:43 PM
07/16/17 02:43 PM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Additionally, Ellen White says that God was very involved in the founding of the US. This country is here because He was involved in its creation. And, just like the nation of Israel, because of sin it has lost its way.

Quote:
Roger Williams was respected and beloved as a faithful minister, a man of rare gifts, of unbending integrity and true benevolence; yet his steadfast denial of the right of civil magistrates to authority over the church, and his demand for religious liberty, could not be tolerated. The application of this new doctrine, it was urged, would “subvert the fundamental state and government of the country.”—Ibid., pt. 1, ch. 15, par. 10. He was sentenced to banishment from the colonies, and, finally, to avoid arrest, he was forced to flee, amid the cold and storms of winter, into the unbroken forest.
“For fourteen weeks,” he says, “I was sorely tossed in a bitter season, not knowing what bread or bed did mean.” [295] But “the ravens fed me in the wilderness,” and a hollow tree often served him for a shelter.—Martyn, vol. 5, pp. 349, 350. Thus he continued his painful flight through the snow and the trackless forest, until he found refuge with an Indian tribe whose confidence and affection he had won while endeavoring to teach them the truths of the gospel.
Making his way at last, after months of change and wandering, to the shores of Narragansett Bay, he there laid the foundation of the first state of modern times that in the fullest sense recognized the right of religious freedom. The fundamental principle of Roger Williams’s colony was “that every man should have liberty to worship God according to the light of his own conscience.”—Ibid., vol. 5, p. 354. His little state, Rhode Island, became the asylum of the oppressed, and it increased and prospered until its foundation principles—civil and religious liberty—became the cornerstones of the American Republic.
In that grand old document which our forefathers set forth as their bill of rights—the Declaration of Independence—they declared: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” And the Constitution guarantees, in the most explicit terms, the inviolability of conscience: “No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
“The framers of the Constitution recognized the eternal principle that man’s relation with his God is above human legislation, and his rights of conscience inalienable. Reasoning was not necessary to establish this truth; we are conscious of it in our own bosoms. It is this consciousness which, in defiance of human laws, has sustained so many martyrs in tortures and flames. They felt that their duty to God was superior to human enactments, and that man could exercise [296] no authority over their consciences. It is an inborn principle which nothing can eradicate.”—Congressional documents (U.S.A.), serial No. 200, document No. 271. Great Controversy pp. 294-297


Just what is it Ellen White says here? That which completely contradicts your assertions. She does not attribute the liberty of conscience to freemasonry. She attributes it to the influence that grew out of Rhode Island and Roger Williams. Funny how you missed that in your Ellen White quotes.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184582
07/17/17 01:54 AM
07/17/17 01:54 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary K

So I have a real built-in resistance to your claims.

I can see that. But maybe calm down a little so you can see the concerns rather than just your built-in reaction to it.
Originally Posted By: Gary K
I show it to you and what do you do? Ask me why I'm showing it to you....

Actually I responded that it wasn't " a matter of judging them as to how much of their belief stemmed from Christianity and how much came from Free Masonry." I guess that wasn't clear enough, should of worded that we shouldn't judge how much stemmed from Christianity and how much from Free Masonry, as there is evidence of both.


Originally Posted By: Gary K

In fact, the only people I have ever seen pushing the freemason angle like you do have come from the political left who want to completely sever all ties to morality and Christianity because those things hold back their agenda. And they do what you do to destroy faith in the founding fathers and portray this country as having always been very evil. And it's simply not true.

First I never said the country has always been very evil. In fact, if you go back and read, I wrote:
"These men did have conviction, belief in a supreme Being, and a much higher standard of morality than what is seen today.
They did give America a government that surpassed everything that went before it, and I do believe God's hand was in it."


As to "left" or "right" politics.
I've never really divided the two the way I think you divide them. In modern politics it appears "left" refers to socialism and control, while "right" refers to liberty and capitalism.

However, I've always seen those terms used in the more religious sense --
"left" refers to liberalism and resistance to control, and
"right" refers to conservatives with very stringent moral demands.

Thus yes, for me the whole Masonic, revolutionary spirit of the latter 1700's was very "left" casting off the restraints of controlling powers, accepting all denominational Christians, Jews, deists, and even atheists as equal.

The "right" were the Puritans who legislated morality, and punished or even killed those in their colony that worshipped differently. They are the conservatives.
The "right" are the so called "religious right" who want to get into government and resume where the Puritans left off when the "left side" denied the government any right to legislate religious laws.

So yes, when the "left" (by my definition from the religious angle) gained the upper hand in America, they brought freedom, but they were balanced by the "right" (by my definition from the religious angle) that maintained that freedom with a high level of standards in the self government sense.
Thus the balance brought success.

Over in France the "left" (again by my definition from the religious angle) thought they were bringing freedom to France, there was no balance, and without that balance, freedom turns into anarchy and evil.

America thus rose with TWO HORNS -- in balance.
Republicanism, (which doesn't promote or deny religion) and
Protestantism, which was the leading "moral" influence in America.

However -- the "left" and "right" aren't that clearly defined -- not by the political definition or the religious definition.

Seems to me that the very fact that the religious definition of left and right seems to be on opposites to the political definition, that in reality they are confusing their definitions.

For example, Catholicism is both "right" and "left". It believes in a sacral society (one specific religion for the whole society)while yet making it sound like they accept religious freedom (they don't except for themselves) On the one hand the pope promotes a socialism of the "haves" supporting the "have nots" and equalizing the worlds wealth, on the other hand they are the richest capitalistic organization in the world.

Control of the masses --
That is the goal -- and as Rev. 17 shows it will be brought in by a oonglomerate unity of powers -- the harlot and her daughters, a beast with seven heads and ten horns



Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184613
07/19/17 09:51 AM
07/19/17 09:51 AM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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So a resistance to what you say based upon a lifetime of studying history is being upset and needing to "calm down"? ***shakes head in disbelief***

I notice you completely ignore what Ellen White says about how the civil and religious liberty of this country grew out of Rhode Island and continue to maintain it was all freemasonry. I thought you accepted Ellen White as a valid authority. Apparently not when she disagrees with you.

Roger Williams was of the same religious group that landed at Plymouth Rock even though he emigrated in 1631. They were the Pilgrims and were known then as Separatists because they wanted to reform their own church, the Puritan church.

The Puritans, who came a decade later, were the group that combined church and state. They were the Massachusetts Bay Colony people.

So, the civil and religious liberty in the Constitution grew out of the Pilgrim's ideals. The religious oppression grew out of the Puritans. A significant difference. There is also nothing to do with freemasonry in this at all.

Your theories are based upon internet memes, not a solid understanding of history.

Last edited by Gary K; 07/19/17 09:53 AM.
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184622
07/20/17 05:19 PM
07/20/17 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
1/It is historical fact that during those days the taverns were the local community gathering places. de Toqueville, when he toured the US for more than a year, says he was astonished at how the entire populace was involved in talking politics on an everyday basis. Everyone followed what was going on and got involved, not like it is today, where only about half even vote and many of those have no real idea as to the issues involved.

2/ I would have to see, also, the connection between socialism and freemasonry, which is one I have never seen. Why? Because socialism is at the root of the Federal Reserve, the IMF, and the World Bank. These institutions are the ones who are really displaying the signs of evil. They are the ones intentionally bankrupting this world for their own political purposes, and using that money they take from the people to finance the worst of villains/dictators who destroy their own people in their mad lust for power and wealth. They are intentionally taking this world back to a feudal type of system through economic warfare.


For clarity, i took the liberty of numbering two quotes I took from your post above.

1/ This comment made me think of how people today still do the same thing - they gather around to discus politics and whats going on, but they do it through the internet. One can subscribe to daily or weekly emails from many news and religious organizations, but now there is one really huge difference. While people are following whats going on; they are not getting involved like they used to do, as you have noted in your post. Its almost like people have become complacent, and mesmerized by just going online and hitting the like button to something. Never before, has the power of the press had such power to deceive. Maybe this is part of the reason for what is happening today?

2/ These thoughts seem to me, to be getting more serious, and more widely adopted around the world. But how much of it can be verified by publicly available, empirical evidence, that one could easily, and independently verify for themselves? How would we prove these allegations to anyone "beyond all reasonable doubt?

In some circles, what you wrote about the IMF, etc would be called "Conspiracy Theories." (not saying yet if thats good or bad).


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184625
07/21/17 05:36 AM
07/21/17 05:36 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
So a resistance to what you say based upon a lifetime of studying history is being upset and needing to "calm down"?
There were some comments that seemed to go beyond simply disagreeing. They sounded rather accusative of things I have never advocated.

Originally Posted By: Gary
I notice you completely ignore what Ellen White says about how the civil and religious liberty of this country grew out of Rhode Island and continue to maintain it was all freemasonry. I thought you accepted Ellen White as a valid authority. Apparently not when she disagrees with you.


Again why the accusative voice?
Who first brought up the name "Roger Williams" -- in fact I brought it up several times. He was the exception. Most of the other colonies were sacral societies who drove out or even killed those who didn't follow the established version of Christianity in the colony. They drove out Roger Williams as well, mainly for voicing such radical ideas. Roger Williams founded Rhode Island to which the refugees from other colonies fled because there was religious freedom in his colony.
Why do you say I ignored him?

EGW wrote of the emergence of religious freedom that was eventually part of the constitution, which was first practiced in Rhode Island, she didn't go into all the factors and political influences that were involved in getting to that point.



Quote:
Roger Williams was of the same religious group that landed at Plymouth Rock even though he emigrated in 1631. They were the Pilgrims and were known then as Separatists because they wanted to reform their own church, the Puritan church.

That's like saying an off shoot member is the church. Roger Williams was not accepted by the Puritans, he had to flee from them in the middle of winter. If it weren't for the friendly help from the Indians he would have perished. Actually he had to flee several times, from various places as his radical ideas of "freedom" kept getting him in trouble. Finally, with the help of the Indians he established Rhode Island colony where he could put his ideas into practice.

What is interesting is that the first Sabbath keeping church began in William's colony. Stephen and Anne Mumford were seventh-day Baptists who eventually were able to organize the first Sabbath keeping church in America.

While almost every colony (and state) had blue Sunday laws, Rhode island never did as long as Williams was alive.

Originally Posted By: Gary
So, the civil and religious liberty in the Constitution grew out of the Pilgrim's ideals. The religious oppression grew out of the Puritans. A significant difference. There is also nothing to do with freemasonry in this at all.


It's not that simple. They of course played a big part, but there were other factors and other influences that also played a big role.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184633
07/23/17 05:08 AM
07/23/17 05:08 AM
dedication  Offline
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We've kind of gone off topic.

I think we agree that the nation of America, with it's freedom's, and constitution, coupled with Protestant Christian morality was part of God's plan. I'm a firm believer in that.
It offered an era of opportunity, both for the advancement of the gospel, and for economic prosperity, rarely, if ever, seen before.

As to disagreements:
It seems (my take on Gary's responses) that he thinks America's political beginnings were all very good and Christian based.

Whereas I too believe that the Protestant Christians had considerable influence bringing a high level of morality to America's beginnings and culture, however, there were also powerful influences from the "age of reason" that was sweeping Europe and the western world at the time. Chief propagators of "age of reason" philosophy were the freemasons, a society in which quite a few of the founding fathers had membership.

In America, the revolution (which was highly driven by "age of reason" ideas) and the subsequent republican government and it's freedoms were a success BECAUSE of the heavy Protestant Christian influence.

In France the revolution, based on the same "age of reason" principles which were part of the American Revolution, resulted in a reign of terror, due to the rejection of Protestant Christianity in France, first by the Papal mandates that drove Protestantism out of the country, and withheld the bible from the people, and then by the total rejection of Bible and all Christianity during the revolution itself.

Thus what I see in this --
Now that Protestant Christianity has largely lost it's moral influence in American culture, America has lost the balance that made for success -- indeed, freedom without morality is chaos and ruin.

And we see this taking place today.


So getting back more to the topic

Originally Posted By: Gary
we stand at the verge of the entire population of the world being held as serfs to the will of a very few people who will hold almost all of the tangible wealth there is in the world. They can then say who can buy and who can sell. This is what the Bible tells us is coming. Why has it occurred? Because economic laws have been deliberately violated left and right for many years. We have been told boom-and-bust is the natural result of economic liberty, when, in fact, it is the deliberate manipulation of currencies that causes boom-and-bust and is done in the desire to take wealth away from the common man and place it in the hands of a very few people. Boom-and-bust has always transferred money away from the common man and into the hands of the few. It is done because wealth is power. And our governments are implicit in this fraud. Our politicians and media deliberately contribute to the economic lies that have led us to this point.


I agree with most of the above,
but haven't they used the freedom of capitalism to get to where they now stand holding most of the wealth in the hands of a few? They used the freedom of capitalism devoid of morality?

How did the huge monopolies develop?
I agree they were/are aided by the government.
But they used capitalistic principles to get where they are.


Seems to me they play it -- like the game "Monopoly".
At first everyone has some properties, houses, business, hotels, etc. and the game is pleasant, everyone is happy.
But before long some get richer, and start buying out the struggling ones who are trying to stay in the game by selling their properities. The rich get richer, the poor poorer, until the poor declare bankruptcy and all their holdings end up in the hands of the rich.

I see it in our little town. First time I came here the main street was bustling with little shops and business and the outlying fields had many small farmers.
What happened? Wal-Mart, and a couple other big stores pretty much put the small businesses out of business. The small farmers sold out to the richer farmers. Small farming doesn't pay anymore.

Large corporations are concentrating control over markets, controlling prices, forcing out small business. Monopolies cause inequality.

So, while I don't believe in socialism, and definitely do not think its the answer (and I agree with you that there is a movement pushing heavily to bring that in and make all dependent on the state)

Still
it seems government should put a lid on the development of monopolies, which used the principles of capitalism to become monopolies, and bring America back into a more "early style" of capitalism?

Of particular concern is the monopoly Monsanto is getting on crop seeds.

But would you consider that "manipulating" the economic situation?








Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: dedication] #184655
07/26/17 01:17 AM
07/26/17 01:17 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Active Member 2018

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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Interesting you talk about a game being played. Have you ever heard of "Game Theory"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d1ibtOVImg&list=PL7RYGizYx40lqDKa0a4pWVqI_RTdlPbbg&index=2

This is a pretty dark documentary, but, I do believe it's accurate.

Last edited by Alchemy; 07/26/17 01:19 AM.
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