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#184582 - 07/16/17 10:54 PM Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: Gary K]
dedication Offline

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Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 4329
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Gary K

So I have a real built-in resistance to your claims.

I can see that. But maybe calm down a little so you can see the concerns rather than just your built-in reaction to it.
Originally Posted By: Gary K
I show it to you and what do you do? Ask me why I'm showing it to you....

Actually I responded that it wasn't " a matter of judging them as to how much of their belief stemmed from Christianity and how much came from Free Masonry." I guess that wasn't clear enough, should of worded that we shouldn't judge how much stemmed from Christianity and how much from Free Masonry, as there is evidence of both.


Originally Posted By: Gary K

In fact, the only people I have ever seen pushing the freemason angle like you do have come from the political left who want to completely sever all ties to morality and Christianity because those things hold back their agenda. And they do what you do to destroy faith in the founding fathers and portray this country as having always been very evil. And it's simply not true.

First I never said the country has always been very evil. In fact, if you go back and read, I wrote:
"These men did have conviction, belief in a supreme Being, and a much higher standard of morality than what is seen today.
They did give America a government that surpassed everything that went before it, and I do believe God's hand was in it."


As to "left" or "right" politics.
I've never really divided the two the way I think you divide them. In modern politics it appears "left" refers to socialism and control, while "right" refers to liberty and capitalism.

However, I've always seen those terms used in the more religious sense --
"left" refers to liberalism and resistance to control, and
"right" refers to conservatives with very stringent moral demands.

Thus yes, for me the whole Masonic, revolutionary spirit of the latter 1700's was very "left" casting off the restraints of controlling powers, accepting all denominational Christians, Jews, deists, and even atheists as equal.

The "right" were the Puritans who legislated morality, and punished or even killed those in their colony that worshipped differently. They are the conservatives.
The "right" are the so called "religious right" who want to get into government and resume where the Puritans left off when the "left side" denied the government any right to legislate religious laws.

So yes, when the "left" (by my definition from the religious angle) gained the upper hand in America, they brought freedom, but they were balanced by the "right" (by my definition from the religious angle) that maintained that freedom with a high level of standards in the self government sense.
Thus the balance brought success.

Over in France the "left" (again by my definition from the religious angle) thought they were bringing freedom to France, there was no balance, and without that balance, freedom turns into anarchy and evil.

America thus rose with TWO HORNS -- in balance.
Republicanism, (which doesn't promote or deny religion) and
Protestantism, which was the leading "moral" influence in America.

However -- the "left" and "right" aren't that clearly defined -- not by the political definition or the religious definition.

Seems to me that the very fact that the religious definition of left and right seems to be on opposites to the political definition, that in reality they are confusing their definitions.

For example, Catholicism is both "right" and "left". It believes in a sacral society (one specific religion for the whole society)while yet making it sound like they accept religious freedom (they don't except for themselves) On the one hand the pope promotes a socialism of the "haves" supporting the "have nots" and equalizing the worlds wealth, on the other hand they are the richest capitalistic organization in the world.

Control of the masses --
That is the goal -- and as Rev. 17 shows it will be brought in by a oonglomerate unity of powers -- the harlot and her daughters, a beast with seven heads and ten horns


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#184613 - 07/19/17 06:51 AM Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: Gary K]
Gary K Offline
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Registered: 02/09/02
Posts: 397
Loc: Colville, Wa
So a resistance to what you say based upon a lifetime of studying history is being upset and needing to "calm down"? ***shakes head in disbelief***

I notice you completely ignore what Ellen White says about how the civil and religious liberty of this country grew out of Rhode Island and continue to maintain it was all freemasonry. I thought you accepted Ellen White as a valid authority. Apparently not when she disagrees with you.

Roger Williams was of the same religious group that landed at Plymouth Rock even though he emigrated in 1631. They were the Pilgrims and were known then as Separatists because they wanted to reform their own church, the Puritan church.

The Puritans, who came a decade later, were the group that combined church and state. They were the Massachusetts Bay Colony people.

So, the civil and religious liberty in the Constitution grew out of the Pilgrim's ideals. The religious oppression grew out of the Puritans. A significant difference. There is also nothing to do with freemasonry in this at all.

Your theories are based upon internet memes, not a solid understanding of history.


Edited by Gary K (07/19/17 06:53 AM)
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#184622 - 07/20/17 02:19 PM Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: Gary K]
The Wanderer Offline
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Registered: 04/03/17
Posts: 284
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
1/It is historical fact that during those days the taverns were the local community gathering places. de Toqueville, when he toured the US for more than a year, says he was astonished at how the entire populace was involved in talking politics on an everyday basis. Everyone followed what was going on and got involved, not like it is today, where only about half even vote and many of those have no real idea as to the issues involved.

2/ I would have to see, also, the connection between socialism and freemasonry, which is one I have never seen. Why? Because socialism is at the root of the Federal Reserve, the IMF, and the World Bank. These institutions are the ones who are really displaying the signs of evil. They are the ones intentionally bankrupting this world for their own political purposes, and using that money they take from the people to finance the worst of villains/dictators who destroy their own people in their mad lust for power and wealth. They are intentionally taking this world back to a feudal type of system through economic warfare.


For clarity, i took the liberty of numbering two quotes I took from your post above.

1/ This comment made me think of how people today still do the same thing - they gather around to discus politics and whats going on, but they do it through the internet. One can subscribe to daily or weekly emails from many news and religious organizations, but now there is one really huge difference. While people are following whats going on; they are not getting involved like they used to do, as you have noted in your post. Its almost like people have become complacent, and mesmerized by just going online and hitting the like button to something. Never before, has the power of the press had such power to deceive. Maybe this is part of the reason for what is happening today?

2/ These thoughts seem to me, to be getting more serious, and more widely adopted around the world. But how much of it can be verified by publicly available, empirical evidence, that one could easily, and independently verify for themselves? How would we prove these allegations to anyone "beyond all reasonable doubt?

In some circles, what you wrote about the IMF, etc would be called "Conspiracy Theories." (not saying yet if thats good or bad).
_________________________
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)

- The Wanderer
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#184625 - 07/21/17 02:36 AM Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: Gary K]
dedication Offline

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Registered: 04/25/04
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Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Gary K
So a resistance to what you say based upon a lifetime of studying history is being upset and needing to "calm down"?
There were some comments that seemed to go beyond simply disagreeing. They sounded rather accusative of things I have never advocated.

Originally Posted By: Gary
I notice you completely ignore what Ellen White says about how the civil and religious liberty of this country grew out of Rhode Island and continue to maintain it was all freemasonry. I thought you accepted Ellen White as a valid authority. Apparently not when she disagrees with you.


Again why the accusative voice?
Who first brought up the name "Roger Williams" -- in fact I brought it up several times. He was the exception. Most of the other colonies were sacral societies who drove out or even killed those who didn't follow the established version of Christianity in the colony. They drove out Roger Williams as well, mainly for voicing such radical ideas. Roger Williams founded Rhode Island to which the refugees from other colonies fled because there was religious freedom in his colony.
Why do you say I ignored him?

EGW wrote of the emergence of religious freedom that was eventually part of the constitution, which was first practiced in Rhode Island, she didn't go into all the factors and political influences that were involved in getting to that point.



Quote:
Roger Williams was of the same religious group that landed at Plymouth Rock even though he emigrated in 1631. They were the Pilgrims and were known then as Separatists because they wanted to reform their own church, the Puritan church.

That's like saying an off shoot member is the church. Roger Williams was not accepted by the Puritans, he had to flee from them in the middle of winter. If it weren't for the friendly help from the Indians he would have perished. Actually he had to flee several times, from various places as his radical ideas of "freedom" kept getting him in trouble. Finally, with the help of the Indians he established Rhode Island colony where he could put his ideas into practice.

What is interesting is that the first Sabbath keeping church began in William's colony. Stephen and Anne Mumford were seventh-day Baptists who eventually were able to organize the first Sabbath keeping church in America.

While almost every colony (and state) had blue Sunday laws, Rhode island never did as long as Williams was alive.

Originally Posted By: Gary
So, the civil and religious liberty in the Constitution grew out of the Pilgrim's ideals. The religious oppression grew out of the Puritans. A significant difference. There is also nothing to do with freemasonry in this at all.


It's not that simple. They of course played a big part, but there were other factors and other influences that also played a big role.
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#184633 - 07/23/17 02:08 AM Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: Gary K]
dedication Offline

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Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 4329
Loc: Canada
We've kind of gone off topic.

I think we agree that the nation of America, with it's freedom's, and constitution, coupled with Protestant Christian morality was part of God's plan. I'm a firm believer in that.
It offered an era of opportunity, both for the advancement of the gospel, and for economic prosperity, rarely, if ever, seen before.

As to disagreements:
It seems (my take on Gary's responses) that he thinks America's political beginnings were all very good and Christian based.

Whereas I too believe that the Protestant Christians had considerable influence bringing a high level of morality to America's beginnings and culture, however, there were also powerful influences from the "age of reason" that was sweeping Europe and the western world at the time. Chief propagators of "age of reason" philosophy were the freemasons, a society in which quite a few of the founding fathers had membership.

In America, the revolution (which was highly driven by "age of reason" ideas) and the subsequent republican government and it's freedoms were a success BECAUSE of the heavy Protestant Christian influence.

In France the revolution, based on the same "age of reason" principles which were part of the American Revolution, resulted in a reign of terror, due to the rejection of Protestant Christianity in France, first by the Papal mandates that drove Protestantism out of the country, and withheld the bible from the people, and then by the total rejection of Bible and all Christianity during the revolution itself.

Thus what I see in this --
Now that Protestant Christianity has largely lost it's moral influence in American culture, America has lost the balance that made for success -- indeed, freedom without morality is chaos and ruin.

And we see this taking place today.


So getting back more to the topic

Originally Posted By: Gary
we stand at the verge of the entire population of the world being held as serfs to the will of a very few people who will hold almost all of the tangible wealth there is in the world. They can then say who can buy and who can sell. This is what the Bible tells us is coming. Why has it occurred? Because economic laws have been deliberately violated left and right for many years. We have been told boom-and-bust is the natural result of economic liberty, when, in fact, it is the deliberate manipulation of currencies that causes boom-and-bust and is done in the desire to take wealth away from the common man and place it in the hands of a very few people. Boom-and-bust has always transferred money away from the common man and into the hands of the few. It is done because wealth is power. And our governments are implicit in this fraud. Our politicians and media deliberately contribute to the economic lies that have led us to this point.


I agree with most of the above,
but haven't they used the freedom of capitalism to get to where they now stand holding most of the wealth in the hands of a few? They used the freedom of capitalism devoid of morality?

How did the huge monopolies develop?
I agree they were/are aided by the government.
But they used capitalistic principles to get where they are.


Seems to me they play it -- like the game "Monopoly".
At first everyone has some properties, houses, business, hotels, etc. and the game is pleasant, everyone is happy.
But before long some get richer, and start buying out the struggling ones who are trying to stay in the game by selling their properities. The rich get richer, the poor poorer, until the poor declare bankruptcy and all their holdings end up in the hands of the rich.

I see it in our little town. First time I came here the main street was bustling with little shops and business and the outlying fields had many small farmers.
What happened? Wal-Mart, and a couple other big stores pretty much put the small businesses out of business. The small farmers sold out to the richer farmers. Small farming doesn't pay anymore.

Large corporations are concentrating control over markets, controlling prices, forcing out small business. Monopolies cause inequality.

So, while I don't believe in socialism, and definitely do not think its the answer (and I agree with you that there is a movement pushing heavily to bring that in and make all dependent on the state)

Still
it seems government should put a lid on the development of monopolies, which used the principles of capitalism to become monopolies, and bring America back into a more "early style" of capitalism?

Of particular concern is the monopoly Monsanto is getting on crop seeds.

But would you consider that "manipulating" the economic situation?







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#184655 - 07/25/17 10:17 PM Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: dedication]
Alchemy Online   content
SDA
Active Member 2017

Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 09/27/11
Posts: 2244
Loc: Asia
Interesting you talk about a game being played. Have you ever heard of "Game Theory"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d1ibtOVImg&list=PL7RYGizYx40lqDKa0a4pWVqI_RTdlPbbg&index=2

This is a pretty dark documentary, but, I do believe it's accurate.


Edited by Alchemy (07/25/17 10:19 PM)
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