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Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: dedication] #184391
07/07/17 06:29 AM
07/07/17 06:29 AM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Colville, Wa
Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Gary K

One of the reasons I started studying political and economic theory was to be able to understand what is happening around me in the world. The deeper my understanding has gotten the more clearly the truths found in the Bible and Ellen White's writings become to me.


Would you like to share some of these connected insights from the political/economic world that deepened understanding in Biblical and prophetic writings?


I will just say this right now. When we misunderstand economic laws we live our financial life by falsehoods we accept, and we suffer the consequences of violating those laws. When we allow these falsehoods to go unchallenged in the world we are not being the watchmen on the walls God wants us to be for untold suffering and misery comes from the poverty that comes from nations and individuals violating these laws. We allow a lot of needless suffering to take place by not understanding and teaching the truth in these matters. That is in direct violation of the duty God has laid upon us to love our fellow man. It is the violation of the Golden Rule, or in other words, the entire law and the prophets.

The same goes for political philosophy and principles. When we do not stand for correct principles in these matters we once again bring untold misery upon the earth. We are told to stand for truth, and yet we have often stood by and allowed deceit and misrepresentation of the principles of truth to stand unopposed because they have happened in the political world. Since when are we to stand by and watch these moral ills passively? The Bible does not teach us that.

How do political lies affect the world? Politics is where civil and religious liberty is greatly affected. And all forms of collectivism destroy these liberties. We should stand against them, not as politicians, but as people who stand for truth, and for civil and religious liberty. We are always to stand for the liberty that God has always granted humanity. And we are always to oppose them for those principles are opposed to the kingdom of God.

God's law is the law of liberty. Why does the Bible call it that? Because liberty can only be based upon self-control. Alexis de Toqueville said: Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith. de Toqueville was a political thinker, and also a Christian.

The Bible teaches us the same thing he did.

The church has only gotten really involved in the political world over one issue: the Sabbath. Yet in the political world we see the expression of the ideas that will destroy all liberty: economic, civil, and religious. Why do we not stand against the power of coercion in all of its forms, for when economic liberty disappears, so do civil and religious liberty. In the history of the world we see that the rise of economic liberty was attended also by the rising of civil and religious liberty. These three things always came together. And these three things are at the basis of the only government here on earth that God ever established.

What happened when Solomon and Rehoboam destroyed economic liberty in Israel through massive taxation? There was rebellion and civil and religious liberty disappeared. The government of Israel, the king, established a system of worship, and told the people not to go worship God at Jerusalem. How did civil liberty disappear? What was Rehoboam's response to the complaints of the people over taxation? He basically said the people were his slaves and they would be treated as such.

What do we see in the political world today? Basically the same thing. We will tax you until you can not bear it. We will destroy your economic freedom by putting you so far in debt by our spending that you will never climb out of this problem. And the Bible teaches us not to go in debt because whoever holds your debt has power over you. So why have we not stood for liberty by getting involved in the fight against deficit spending? The Bible has taught us this, why have we not stood for it? Most likely because we have been swept away by the delusion that governments do not need to operate by economic realities. Who cares about government debt? All they have to do is print more money.

Our misunderstanding of economic truth has led us into economic slavery. And we stand at the verge of the entire population of the world being held as serfs to the will of a very few people who will hold almost all of the tangible wealth there is in the world. They can then say who can buy and who can sell. This is what the Bible tells us is coming. Why has it occurred? Because economic laws have been deliberately violated left and right for many years. We have been told boom-and-bust is the natural result of economic liberty, when, in fact, it is the deliberate manipulation of currencies that causes boom-and-bust and is done in the desire to take wealth away from the common man and place it in the hands of a very few people. Boom-and-bust has always transferred money away from the common man and into the hands of the few. It is done because wealth is power. And our governments are implicit in this fraud. Our politicians and media deliberately contribute to the economic lies that have led us to this point. They keep the people confused as to economic realities and then tell the people that it is raining while they are urinating on people's shoes.

Yes, these things were prophesied. But, just as we were told they were coming, we were also told to fight against the loss of liberty so that more people could be saved for God's kingdom. We are guilty of a lot of failure to stand for God's principles in areas that we have for all intents and purposes deliberately ignored.

Last edited by Gary K; 07/07/17 06:32 AM.
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: kland] #184393
07/07/17 06:48 AM
07/07/17 06:48 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Asia
Originally Posted By: kland
In finances, there has always been people saying the stock market is in such an unusual state, or it won't ever be the same. But the market adjusts, and all unusual things become usual. Sure, we know there is coming a time, but when people keep saying the end is near, soon no one pays attention to the wolf cries.

Consider the title of the thread, A new Global Economic Restructure in 2012.


I agree, there is an underlying hostility of the people. It's been there a few years...


I'm glad you emphasized "2012".

Last edited by Alchemy; 07/07/17 06:56 AM.
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184394
07/07/17 06:54 AM
07/07/17 06:54 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Just a simple reading of prophecy warns us of the merchants of the world, what is their merchandise, (Rev. 18:11-14) and what their simple minded concerns are.

Our politicians with these merchants are easy prey for mighty Babylon. Only that Babylon turns out to lose this battle in the end.

We must come to that point of trusting the outcome of all this in the end. There is some good to being "wise as serpents" (Matt. 10:16) but, being gentle as doves is more important. We must look forward to a New Heaven and New Earth.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184413
07/08/17 07:18 AM
07/08/17 07:18 AM
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Charity  Offline
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Gary, wasn't it Toqueville who said that America was great because America was good. Economic freedom and all other freedoms are a byproduct of righteousness. The focus of our message on the everlasting gospel is the only real solution to both our individual enslavement to sin and also to all of western society's problems. The gospel restores our individual freedoms, reason take back the throne and we are liberated. That is the bedrock of sound economics.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: Charity] #184418
07/08/17 11:55 AM
07/08/17 11:55 AM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Colville, Wa
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Gary, wasn't it Toqueville who said that America was great because America was good. Economic freedom and all other freedoms are a byproduct of righteousness. The focus of our message on the everlasting gospel is the only real solution to both our individual enslavement to sin and also to all of western society's problems. The gospel restores our individual freedoms, reason take back the throne and we are liberated. That is the bedrock of sound economics.


I'm not sure if that quote is from de Toqueville or not. It does tend to agree with other things he has said though.

I agree that God is the ultimate source of liberty. But, and this is a big but, how do you get to the place of speaking of that with someone who has gone through 16 years of education that has taught him the Bible is bunk and that all good things come from government? If you go straight to Christianity and what the Bible says you will be tuned out before you even begin.

I post on a site where there are a lot of highly intelligent people, but people who are for the most part either highly anti-Christian, or at least highly skeptical of Christianity. They have replaced their need of religion with socialism. That is now their religion, and they believe in it fervently. Most will not listen to anything other than socialism, and actually get really upset if someone challenges their ideology. However, there are a few who will thoughtfully listen and question you to see if you really understand what you are talking about. A person has to be able to point out why and how an economy works, why and how liberty is better than coercion, and do it from sources they will at least listen to.

Once you gain their respect then you can begin to show where our ultimate best interests lie, but before you can do that you have to meet them on their level. You have to be able to show from political thinkers, economists, etc... why what you believe is better than what they believe. You must plant the seeds of truth that get under their skin without their knowing it, and that cause them to begin to question if what they have been taught all their lives by their teachers, professors and the media is really true. You have to get them to really begin to think and question their own beliefs. To do that a person must have a really good grasp of economics and the different political philosophies so you can explain things to them in your own words, and demonstrate how you put the principles you are talking about into practice in your own life. That takes as thorough a knowledge of economics and political theory as it does Biblical knowledge and experience with God.

I started a conversation with a young programmer, around 30 years old, a week or so ago. He was curious why I had said some of the things I had said, so I had to explain to him in detail why I had the philosophy I did. It took a real understanding of economics and political ideology to do that outside of the Bible. Why outside of the Bible? Because he would have immediately turned me off if I had brought it up. Our posts were pretty in-depth averaging around a 1000 words per post, and this has gone on for days. I haven't heard from him since the 4th, but don't know if he has just decided to stop talking, or he has other things he is doing as this is a popular time to take a vacation. All I know is I would never have been able to get him to listen to my ideas if I had used Bible only, and I was able to get him to at least acknowledge personal liberty was much more important than he had ever thought it was as he was greatly in favor of using the power coercion that resides in the state. He has modified that position somewhat already and has come to understand why those of us who decry its usage do so. Before he hadn't a clue as to why using the coercive power of the state wasn't seen by everyone as a good thing.

He's been indoctrinated, but still retains enough thoughtfulness to be able to reach using logic and understanding of the issues as the world sees them. Without that ability it would have been impossible to get him to question anything he thinks as he is someone with a really high IQ and to get his respect you have to meet him on his level of thinking.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184433
07/09/17 04:57 AM
07/09/17 04:57 AM
dedication  Offline
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Posts: 6,411
Canada
Originally Posted By: Gary
How do political lies affect the world? Politics is where civil and religious liberty is greatly affected. And all forms of collectivism destroy these liberties. We should stand against them, not as politicians, but as people who stand for truth, and for civil and religious liberty. We are always to stand for the liberty that God has always granted humanity. And we are always to oppose them for those principles are opposed to the kingdom of God.....

.... but before you can do that you have to meet them on their level. You have to be able to show from political thinkers, economists, etc... why what you believe is better than what they believe.
Political science and economics isn't something I've studied deeply enough to meet "political thinkers".
My knowledge on these matters are rather "surface" and scattered bits and pieces.

However, I still remember back when communism "ended" in Russia in 1991. While much of the west was rejoicing, other voices were warning that communism had not really ended, it was simply going into temporary remission, and quietly waiting for new alignments.

In fact I still have articles, written 1992 and 1995 --
Wonder what your thoughts on this is?

Originally Posted By: Freedom's Ring Sept. 1992

Gorbachev, who once headed the KGB is one of the greatest new Age advocates in the world for restructuring the world with "higher consciousness", "global consciousness" and a "worldwide revolution" involving a "new way of thinking" which "must begin in the mind" (quoted phrases from Perestoika:New Thinking for the for our country and the world NY Harper & Row Pblr 1987)

We must realize that today we are dealing with a KGB that is promoting New Age globalism and mind change.

Last spring (1992) in an interview, Malachi Martin described the KGB as a completely intact colossal organization of twenty million spies, jailers and executioners waiting quietly for new alignments. It appears now that the Vatican has assumed control of this massive organization.....

Originally Posted By: Freedom's Ring Mar. 1995

According to the Cape Cod (Massachusetts) Times of January 23, 1993, Gorbachev stated:
"The future needs...international institutions acting on behalf of all. A higher institution that operates on a consensus, such a choice would narrow the independence many believe the United States now enjoys... President (Bill) Clinton will be a success if he uses American influence to accomplish this transformation of international responsibility and increase significantly the role of the United nations."

It is worth noting that Gorbachev, as the last leader of the Soviet Union has never renounced his Marxist ideology. (Mike Blair, The Spotlight March 1995.

The Role of the Gorbachev Foundation and Soviet spawned Global Structures.

"In October, 1917, we parted with the Old World, rejecting it once and for all. We are moving toward a new world, the world of communism. We shall never turn off that road," Mikhail Gorbachev 1987....

The Gorbachev foundation USA was established in California on 4/10/91 four months before the August '01 pseudo-coup. the Gorbachev Foundation is an international structure of Soviet strategists with offices in Moscow, San Francisco, the Netherlands, and elsewhere, linked to the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and the KGB and its derivatives, which, according to Christopher Story, writing in "The Hidden assault on the West," is charged with the task of 'molding the Western mind and international thinking to make it receptive to Soviet schemes intended to further Moscow's strategy to procure "convergence" between East and West on its own terms.

The theme being pushed by the Gorbachev Foundation is that in the 'post-Cold War era' national borders are provisional and that the international community needs cart-blanche to intervene across border in cases of human rights abuse, or where a government is 'contravening the will for the international community'.

Gorbachev's Green Cross for the Destruction of Traditional Western Values

"In January, 1990, while he was still perched atop the USSR, the former head dictator called for the creation of an international ecology organization in a speech to the Global Forum of Spiritual and Parliamentary leaders for Human Survival. He suggested that it develop solutions to environmental boundaries which 'transcend national boundaries'.
"Plans to carry out Gorbachev's design were laid at the June 1992 parliamentary Earth Summit held in conjunction with the UN. Earth Summit in rio de Janeiro.
Then, in Kyoto, japan, in April, 1993, Green Cross International was born with Mikhail Gorbachev as its president. The red dictator was now dressed up in environmental green.

"Green Cross International quotes Gorbachev as follows: "It seems to me that our future civilization will be determined to a great extent by radical values changes". with world headquarters in Geneva, Switzerland, Green Cross International boast of a board of Trustees that includes such world government devotes as Yoko ono, Olivia Newton-John, Carl Sagan, Robert Redford, and ted turner. Proudly stating its intention in 'foster a global value shift' Green Cross seeks 'the destruction of traditional Western values....(New American, Review of the News. inc. 770 Westhill Blvd., Appleton, WI)


That's just a sampling, but the idea is clear -- the head of the communist regime, before communism went into remission, established himself in organizations that would "change western values" to fit Marxist values.

Gary's post indicating how socialism has taken over the minds of the educated reminded me of these articles.
As I reread those old articles, it kind of jumped out that these things have progressed in scope, and values have definitely been changed in the direction of Marxist thinking, since these articles were written!!



It's not called "communism" but "socialism' yet as far as I understand both come from Marxist ideals.

This quote is attributed to Gorbachev:
"Jesus was the first socialist, the first to seek a better life for mankind."

And Pope Francis has made his social and economic tendencies clear --

They used to say -- don't read that stuff it's conspiracy theory", -- but as I read it again -- it seems very much confirmed that this is what is happening.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184437
07/09/17 03:21 PM
07/09/17 03:21 PM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Colville, Wa
dedication,

I fully agree with the quotes you have given, and how you view them.

The US has had presidents for over 100 years, and legislatures, who have worked towards the goals you describe: Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Nixon, Clinton, Carter, and Obama. Other presidents have done this too, only to a lesser degree: the Bushes, Truman, and a far lesser extent, Reagan and Eisenhower, come to mind. Reagan was basically betrayed by those around him into his going along with things for he fully understood that the government was the enemy of the people.

The word communist is in itself a red herring. Think about all the countries that have that word attached to them, and then consider the following. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels wrote "The Communist Manifesto", but Engels later admitted they used the word communist only to separate themselves from all the socialists who had come before them, for they were both committed socialists. It was propaganda designed to give them more attention. So, Marxism is socialism. Think about the USSR: Union of Soviet Socialist Republic. Nazism: National Socialist Party. Chairman Mao was a Marxist. Fidel Castro was a Marxist. All of the nations with the word communist attached to them are actually socialist countries. The claim that fascism, communism, and socialism are all different is nothing but propaganda. There isn't a nickels worth of difference between the ideologies.

In the early 20th century a man named Max Eastman graduated from Davidson College as a committed socialist. He became of the leading socialist activists in the US at a young age, and was asked to become, and became, the first editor of the socialist magazine The Masses. He was invited to the USSR during the revolution by Lenin and Trotsky, and was given access to any documentation of what they were doing that he wanted to see. He wrote then that Stalinism is socialism.

It's ironic that his invitation to the USSR to see what was going on was the very means of turning him against socialism for it allowed him to actually see how socialism is put into practice. He became, after a decade or so later, one of the most outspoken opponents of socialism. His book, Reflections on the Failure of Socialism, is a very good read. It exposes Marx and Engels for what kind of human beings they really are, and socialism itself for what it really is. I've given a link to a free ebook version of it before on this forum, but here is another: https://mises.org/library/reflections-failure-socialism . This is a book well worth reading as is Friederich Hayek's book The Road to Serfdom.

Hayeks's book is a masterful exposing of why collectivism in general, and socialism especially, is one of the worst ideas ever to come about in this world. His documentation for what he says is very complete. You can buy his book from Amazon for pretty cheap. I see it as one of the most important political/economic books written in the 20th century. If everyone would read it the world would be a different place for those who accept what he says would be much more vocal in speaking out against what socialists claim to be true.

The only protection the US has ever had from this is our constitution, and it has been being destroyed since the early 20th century. I can't think of but one president who has not violated the constitution and worked to make the presidency something it was not designed to be--a relatively weak position. That president, Warren G. Harding, is looked upon with scorn as a do-nothing president. Why? Because he left things alone and let them work their way out without government interference. And, he is the only president who ever presided over a stock market crash that didn't turn into a massive depression. The stock market crash that came during his presidency was worse than the 1929 crash, and yet within two years the economy was humming along as if nothing had happened. He didn't mess with the money supply. He didn't invoke massive government regulation. He let the pain that comes from inflation caused by government debt and spending during a war time economy just occur naturally, and in a very short time it was all taken care of, and prosperity returned. Contrast that with FDR's response to the 1929 crash. His actions resulted in a massive, long-term, depression that went on for a decade with almost untold poverty and suffering.

Who actually helped the citizens of his country more? The do-nothing president or the one who thought he could manipulate everything? The results speak for themselves.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: Charity] #184487
07/12/17 04:59 PM
07/12/17 04:59 PM
G
Garywk  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Gary, wasn't it Toqueville who said that America was great because America was good. Economic freedom and all other freedoms are a byproduct of righteousness. The focus of our message on the everlasting gospel is the only real solution to both our individual enslavement to sin and also to all of western society's problems. The gospel restores our individual freedoms, reason take back the throne and we are liberated. That is the bedrock of sound economics.


Mark,

I have done some research on the quote you referred to as you made me curious as to whether or not de Toqueville had actually said it. I've read a bunch of his writings and could not remember ever coming across it, but thought I might have forgotten it.

What follows are a couple of links that show some extended research into the origin of the quote.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-tocqueville-fraud/article/8100

https://faithandamericanhistory.wordpres...-good-part-one/

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184541
07/15/17 11:58 AM
07/15/17 11:58 AM
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Charity  Offline
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Posts: 4,583
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This principle that genuine goodness is genuine greatness is scriptural. The quote attributed rightly or wrongly to Toqueville is the same thought from the wise man: "Righteousness exalteth a nation but sin is a reproach to any people." No nation can maintain a global leadership role and divorce itself from the law of God, from justice and mercy. The USA had largely abandoned the higher ground and it is costing us global respect. Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize, an indication of how thick the darkness has become, but the majority of the world's nations, notwithstanding the prize, no longer have the grudging respect they once had for America. There is no real respect for unrighteousness.

Our gradual enslavement to socialist and communist ideology results from our abandonment of righteousness. The moral vacuum we've created is being filled by human, band-aid solutions. Broken cistrens God calls them. Paul found that rather than meeting the wisdom of his day with reason and logic, he was far more effective preaching the foolishness of the cross, which is not foolishness but is the highest divine logic - Christ crucified.

I always try to meet people on common ground and build confidence and mutual trust, but I also pray for wisdom so that I can be effective in presenting the cross, that I have a ready testimony to share, that I will be instant in season and out of season.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: Charity] #184542
07/15/17 01:26 PM
07/15/17 01:26 PM
G
Garywk  Offline OP
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Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
This principle that genuine goodness is genuine greatness is scriptural. The quote attributed rightly or wrongly to Toqueville is the same thought from the wise man: "Righteousness exalteth a nation but sin is a reproach to any people." No nation can maintain a global leadership role and divorce itself from the law of God, from justice and mercy. The USA had largely abandoned the higher ground and it is costing us global respect. Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize, an indication of how thick the darkness has become, but the majority of the world's nations, notwithstanding the prize, no longer have the grudging respect they once had for America. There is no real respect for unrighteousness.

Our gradual enslavement to socialist and communist ideology results from our abandonment of righteousness. The moral vacuum we've created is being filled by human, band-aid solutions. Broken cistrens God calls them. Paul found that rather than meeting the wisdom of his day with reason and logic, he was far more effective preaching the foolishness of the cross, which is not foolishness but is the highest divine logic - Christ crucified.

I always try to meet people on common ground and build confidence and mutual trust, but I also pray for wisdom so that I can be effective in presenting the cross, that I have a ready testimony to share, that I will be instant in season and out of season.


I fully agree. It is because we, as a nation, have abandoned God that we find ourselves in the mess we are in. The masses now want freedom from religion rather than freedom of religion. Another de Toqueville quote on this is: "Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith." This is why liberty was established in the US as the Pilgrims were highly moral. Their religion, their faith in God, was at the basis of all their political ideals. And it is the system of government that they founded here that pretty much reached out and spread across the northern half of the US in the early days, and was the basis for what our founding fathers put in place. The US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and that is why it was so successful in its early years. Those principles were reflected in our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution. Sadly, very little of that survives today. There is still a form, but the substance is long gone.

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as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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