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Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184559
07/16/17 01:51 AM
07/16/17 01:51 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
dedication,

Being founded as a Christian nation, and being founded on Christian principles are two different things. I have never said the US was founded as a Christian nation. I have always said the latter. That's the same thing de Toqueville is saying in his book.


Thanks for clarifying.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184560
07/16/17 01:52 AM
07/16/17 01:52 AM
G
Garywk  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
dedication,

What follows are a series of quotes from the writings of John Adams, one of our founding fathers.

Quote:
It would be unbecoming the representatives of this nation to assemble for the first time in this solemn temple without looking up to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe and imploring His blessing.

May this territory be the residence of virtue and happiness! In this city may that piety and virtue, that wisdom and magnanimity, that constancy and self-government, which adorned the great character whose name it bears be forever held in veneration! Here and throughout our country may simple manners, pure morals, and true religion flourish forever!

John Adams State of the Union Address November 11, 1800


Philadelphia, 16 September, 1774.

Having a leisure moment, while the Congress is assembling, I gladly embrace it to write you a line.

When the Congress first met, Mr. Cushing made a motion that it should be opened with prayer. It was opposed by Mr. Jay, of New York, and Mr. Rutledge, of South Carolina, because we were so divided in religious sentiments, some Episcopalians, some Quakers, some Anabaptists, some Presbyterians, and some Congregationalists, that we could not join in the same act of worship. Mr. Samuel Adams arose and said he was no bigot, and could hear a prayer from a gentleman of piety and virtue, who was at the same time a friend to his country. He was a stranger in Philadelphia, but had heard that Mr. Duché (Dushay they pronounce it) deserved that character, and therefore he moved that Mr. Duché, an Episcopal clergyman, might be desired to read prayers to the Congress, to-morrow morning. The motion was seconded and passed in the affirmative. Mr. Randolph, our president, waited on Mr. Duché, and received for answer that if his health would permit he certainly would. Accordingly, next morning he appeared with his clerk and in his pontificals, and read several prayers in the established form; and then read the Collect for the seventh day of September, which was the thirty-fifth Psalm. You must remember this was the next morning after we heard the horrible rumor of the cannonade of Boston. I never saw a greater effect upon an audience. It seemed as if Heaven had ordained that Psalm to be read on that morning.

After this, Mr. Duché, unexpected to everybody, struck out into an extemporary prayer, which filled the bosom of every man present. I must confess I never beard a better prayer, or one so well pronounced. Episcopalian as he is, Dr. Cooper himself[54] never prayed with such fervor, such ardor, such earnestness and pathos, and in language so elegant and sublime—for America, for the Congress, for the Province of Massachusetts Bay, and especially the town of Boston. It has had an excellent effect upon everybody here. I must beg you to read that Psalm. If there was any faith in the Sortes Biblicæ, it would be thought providential.

It will amuse your friends to read this letter and the thirty-fifth Psalm to them. Read it to your father and Mr. Wibird. I wonder what our Braintree Churchmen will think of this! Mr. Duché is one of the most ingenious men, and best characters, and greatest orators in the Episcopal order, upon this continent. Yet a zealous friend of Liberty and his country.[55]

I long to see my dear family. God bless, preserve, and prosper it. Adieu.


Philadelphia, 11 June, 1775.

I have been this morning to hear Mr. Duffield, a preacher in this city, whose principles, prayers, and sermons more nearly resemble those of our New England clergy than any that I have heard. His discourse was a kind of exposition on the thirty-fifth chapter of Isaiah. America was the wilderness, and the solitary place, and he said it would be glad, "rejoice and blossom as the rose." He labored "to strengthen the weak hands and confirm the feeble knees." He "said to them that were of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not. Behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompense; he will come and save you," "No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, but the redeemed shall walk there," etc. He applied the whole prophecy to this country, and gave us as animating an entertainment as I ever heard. He filled and swelled the bosom of every hearer. I hope you have received a letter, in which I inclosed you a pastoral letter from the synod of New York and Philadelphia; by this you will see, that the clergy this way are but now beginning to engage in politics, and they engage with a fervor that will produce wonderful effects.


The following is a note from Abigail Adams, John Adams' wife, to John Quincy Adams on the day he became President.

Quote:
“Quincy, 8 February, 1797.
“The sun is dressed in brightest beams
To give thy honors to the day.”
“And may it prove an auspicious prelude to each ensuing season. You have this day to declare yourself head of a nation. ‘And now, O Lord, my God, thou hast made thy servant ruler over the people. Give unto him an understanding heart, that he may know how to go out and come in before this great people; that he may discern between good and bad. For who is able to judge this thy so great a people?’ were the words of a royal sovereign; and not less applicable to him who is invested with the chief magistracy of a nation, though he wear not the crown, nor the robes of royalty.

“My thoughts and my meditations are with you, though personally absent; and my petitions to Heaven are that ‘the things which make for peace may not be hidden from your eyes.’ My feelings are not those of pride or ostentation upon the occasion. They are solemnized by a sense of the obligations, the important trusts and numerous duties connected with it. That you may be enabled to discharge them with honor to yourself, with justice and impartiality to your country, and with satisfaction to this great people, shall be the daily prayer of your A. A.”


Here is a quote from John Adams diary.

Quote:
31. Saturday. The nature and essence of the material world is not less concealed from our knowledge than the nature and essence of God. We see ourselves surrounded on all sides with a vast expanse of heavens, and we feel ourselves astonished at the grandeur, the blazing pomp of those stars with which it is adorned. The birds fly over our heads and our fellow animals labor and sport around us; the trees wave and murmur in the winds; the clouds float and shine on high; the surging billows rise in the sea, and ships break through the tempest; here rises a spacious city, and yonder is spread out an extensive plain. These objects are so common and familiar that we think ourselves fully acquainted with them; but these are only effects and properties; the substance from whence they flow is hid from us in impenetrable obscurity.

God is said to be self-existent, and that therefore he must have existed from eternity, and throughout immensity. God exists by an absolute necessity in his own nature; that is, it implies a contradiction to suppose him not to exist. To ask what this necessity is, is as if you should ask what the necessity of the equality between twice two and four is; twice two are necessarily in their own nature equal to four, not only here, but in every point of space; not only now, but in every point of duration. In the same manner God necessarily exists, not only here, but throughout unlimited space; not only now, but throughout [27] all duration, past and future. We observe in the animate and in the inanimate creation a surprising diversity and a surprising uniformity. Of inanimate substances there is a great variety, from the pebble in the streets quite up to the vegetables in the forest; of animals there is no less a variety of species, from the animalcula, that escape our naked sight, quite through the intermediate kinds up to elephants, horses, men. Yet, notwithstanding this variety, there is, from the highest species of animals upon this globe, which is generally thought to be man, a regular and uniform subordination of one tribe to another, down to the apparently insignificant animalcules in pepper water; and the same subordination continues quite through the vegetable kingdom. And it is worth observing that each species regularly and uniformly preserve all their essential and peculiar properties without partaking of the peculiar properties of others. We do not see chickens hatched with fins to swim; nor fishes spawned with wings to fly; we do not see a colt foaled with claws like a bird, nor man with the clothing or armor which his reason renders him capable of procuring for himself. Every species has its distinguishing properties, and every individual that is born has all those properties without any of the distinguishing properties of another species. What now can preserve this prodigious variety of species and this inflexible uniformity among the individuals but the continual and vigilant providence of God?

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: dedication] #184561
07/16/17 02:02 AM
07/16/17 02:02 AM
G
Garywk  Offline OP
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Colville, Wa
Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: dedication
In the French revolution the "Christian influence" was that of the Catholic tyrannical nature. The protestants had been cruelly massacred (Bartholomew massacre being the worst) by the church, but that was just one in many. Protestantism was basically driven out of France.
The lessons taught by the "church" were well learnt. And the "church" itself reaped the results in the revolution.

In America the Protestant influence was strong.
It countered the "evil" of masonry, and thus the principles of self government and liberties worked.

But still America was not founded as a Christian nation. It was founded as a "free nation". What it needs is revival in the churches to regain it's influence on culture in general, it does not need an enforcement of Christianity by government (not that I'm suggesting that you are recommending that, as I don't believe you are, but there are a lot of people who are)


Umm... The French Revolution deified the Goddess of Reason. The French revolution was the impetus for what has come to be known as rationalism, which denies miracles, the divinity of Christ, the inspiration by the Holy Spirit of the prophets of the Bible, etc.... Catholicism, as was all religion, was execrated by the leaders of the that revolution. These men were all anti-God.

The difference between the two revolutions was the Americans welcomed God and the French denied Him and all He stands for.


I guess I wasn't clear enough.
The Christian influence that the French people knew was that of the tyrannical Catholic church.

It's true the revolutionists throw off all christianity, and I did state that the "church" reaped the results of the lessons she had taught.

It was the church that banned the Bible from the general population and murdered those who dared proclaim the truths found in it's pages. They taught the lessons that bore fruit in the revolution.

True, the revolution, revolted against Christianity, they threw out the true with the false.

But remember:

Quote:
The war against the Bible, carried forward for so many centuries in France, culminated in the scenes of the Revolution. That terrible outbreaking was but the legitimate result of Rome's suppression of the Scriptures. It presented the most striking illustration which the world has ever witnessed of the working out of the papal policy-- an illustration of the results to which for more than a thousand
years the teaching of the Roman Church had been tending. {GC 265.2}

It was popery that had begun the work which atheism was completing. The policy of Rome had wrought out those conditions, social, political, and religious, that were hurrying France on to ruin. A writer, speaking of the horrors of the Revolution, says: “Those excesses are in truth to be charged upon the throne and the church.” In strict justice they are to be charged upon the church. Popery had poisoned the minds of kings against the Reformation, as an enemy to the crown, an element of discord that would be fatal to the peace and harmony of the nation. It was the genius of Rome that by this means inspired the direst cruelty and the most galling oppression which proceeded from the throne. {GC88 276.4}

The spirit of liberty went with the Bible. Wherever the gospel was received, the minds of the people were awakened. They began to cast off the shackles that had held them bondslaves of ignorance, vice, and superstition. They began to think and act as men. Monarchs saw it, and trembled for their despotism. Rome was not slow to inflame their jealous fears. {GC88 277.1}

..blind and inexorable bigotry chased from her soil every teacher of virtue, every champion of order, every honest defender of the throne; it said to the men who would have made their country a ‘renown and glory’ in the earth, Choose which you will have, a stake or exile. At last the ruin of the State was complete; there remained no more conscience to be proscribed; no more religion to be dragged to the stake; no more patriotism to be chased into banishment.” And the Revolution, with all its horrors, was the dire result. {GC88 278.2}



Quote:
...the Albigenses of France...The brave Huguenots..The Protestants were counted as outlaws, a price was set upon their heads, and they were hunted down like wild beasts. {GC 271.2}
... But blackest in the black catalogue of crime, most horrible among the fiendish deeds of all the dreadful centuries, was the St. Bartholomew Massacre...Seventy thousand of the very flower of the nation perished. {GC 272.2}

All too well the people had learned the lessons of cruelty and torture which Rome had so diligently taught. A day of retribution at last had come. It was not now the disciples of Jesus that were thrust into dungeons and dragged to the stake. Long ago these had perished or been driven into exile. Unsparing Rome now felt the deadly power of those whom she had trained to delight in deeds of blood. GC 283

Unhappy France reaped in blood the harvest she had sown. Terrible were the results of her submission to the controlling power of Rome. Where France, under the influence of Romanism, had set up the first stake at the opening of the Reformation, there the Revolution set up its first guillotine. On the very spot where the first martyrs to the Protestant faith were burned in the sixteenth century, the first victims were guillotined in the eighteenth. In repelling the gospel, which would have brought her healing, France had opened the door to infidelity and ruin. When the restraints of God's law were cast aside, it was found that the laws of man were inadequate to hold in check the powerful tides of human passion; and the nation swept on to revolt and anarchy. The war against the Bible inaugurated an era which stands in the world's history as the Reign of Terror. Peace and happiness were banished from the homes and hearts of men. {GC 282


But the point still stands. The French revolution was completely anti-God. The American revolution was far different. The leaders looked to God for wisdom, understanding, strength, and victory etc.... And they acknowledged that God was the source of their victory. That was the big difference.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184562
07/16/17 02:08 AM
07/16/17 02:08 AM
G
Garywk  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Here a few short quotes from George Washington. Long quotes from his writings are pretty rare as Martha, for some reason, destroyed all his letters and writings after his death.

Quote:
"I have only been an instrument in the hands of Providence." George Washington

"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible." President George Washington

"The Hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this-the course of the war-that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more wicked that has not gratitude to acknowledge his obligations; but it will be time enough for me to turn Preacher when my present appointment ceases."


And one more.

Quote:
“Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. … [R]eason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

Last edited by Gary K; 07/16/17 02:15 AM.
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184566
07/16/17 04:00 AM
07/16/17 04:00 AM
G
Garywk  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
The following was written by James Madison to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia in 1785. It was titled Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments.
Quote:



We, the subscribers, citizens of the said Commonwealth, having taken into serious consideration, a Bill printed by order of the last Session of General Assembly, entitled “A Bill establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion,” and conceiving [184] that the same, if finally armed with the sanctions of a law, will be a dangerous abuse of power, are bound as faithful members of a free State, to remonstrate against it, and to declare the reasons by which we are determined. We remonstrate against the said Bill,

1. Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, “that Religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the Manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence.”1 The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable; because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds, cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also; because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage, and such only, as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent both in order of time and degree of obligation, to the claims [185] of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, who enters into any subordinate Association, must always do it with a reservation of his duty to the general authority; much more must every man who becomes a member of any particular Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign. We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man’s right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society, and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true, that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority.

2. Because if religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body. The latter are but the creatures and vicegerents of the former. Their jurisdiction is both derivative and limited: it is limited with regard to the co-ordinate departments, more necessarily is it limited with regard to the constituents. The preservation of a free government requires not merely, that the metes and bounds which separate each department of power may be invariably maintained; but more especially, that neither of them be suffered to overleap the great Barrier which defends the rights of the people. The Rulers who are guilty of such an encroachment, exceed the commission from which they derive their authority, and are Tyrants. The People who submit to it are governed by laws made neither by themselves, nor by an authority derived from them, and are slaves.

3. Because, it is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of citizens, and one of [the] noblest characteristics of the late Revolution. The freemen of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the [186] principle. We revere this lesson too much, soon to forget it. Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?

4. Because, the bill violates that equality which ought to be the basis of every law, and which is more indispensible, in proportion as the validity or expediency of any law is more liable to be impeached. If “all men are by nature equally free and independent,”1 all men are to be considered as entering into Society on equal conditions; as relinquishing no more, and therefore retaining no less, one than another, of their natural rights. Above all are they to be considered as retaining an “equal title to the free exercise of Religion according to the dictates of conscience.”2 Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and to observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us. If this freedom be abused, it is an offence against God, not against man: To God, therefore, not to men, must an account of it be rendered. As the Bill violates equality by subjecting some to peculiar burdens; so it violates the same principle, by granting to others peculiar exemptions. Are the Quakers and Menonists the only sects who think a compulsive support of their religions unnecessary and unwarantable? Can their piety alone be intrusted with the care of public worship? Ought their Religions to be endowed above all others, with extraordinary privileges, by which proselytes may be enticed from all others? We think too favorably of the justice and good sense of these denominations, to believe that they either covet pre-eminencies over their fellow citizens, or that they will be seduced by them, from the common opposition to the measure.

[187]
5. Because the bill implies either that the Civil Magistrate is a competent Judge of Religious truth; or that he may employ Religion as an engine of Civil policy. The first is an arrogant pretension falsified by the contradictory opinions of Rulers in all ages, and throughout the world: The second an unhallowed perversion of the means of salvation.

6. Because the establishment proposed by the Bill is not requisite for the support of the Christian Religion. To say that it is, is a contradiction to the Christian Religion itself; for every page of it disavows a dependence on the powers of this world: it is a contradiction to fact; for it is known that this Religion both existed and flourished, not only without the support of human laws, but in spite of every opposition from them; and not only during the period of miraculous aid, but long after it had been left to its own evidence, and the ordinary care of Providence: Nay, it is a contradiction in terms; for a Religion not invented by human policy, must have pre-existed and been supported, before it was established by human policy. It is moreover to weaken in those who profess this Religion a pious confidence in its innate excellence, and the patronage of its Author; and to foster in those who still reject it, a suspicion that its friends are too conscious of its fallacies, to trust it to its own merits.

7. Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries, has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest lustre; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy. Propose a restoration of this primitive state in which its Teachers depended on the voluntary rewards of their flocks; many of them predict its downfall. On which side ought their testimony to have greatest weight, when for or when against their interest?

[188]
8. Because the establishment in question is not necessary for the support of Civil Government. If it be urged as necessary for the support of Civil Government only as it is a means of supporting Religion, and it be not necessary for the latter purpose, it cannot be necessary for the former. If Religion be not within [the] cognizance of Civil Government, how can its legal establishment be said to be necessary to civil Government? What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure & perpetuate it, needs them not. Such a government will be best supported by protecting every citizen in the enjoyment of his Religion with the same equal hand which protects his person and his property; by neither invading the equal rights of any Sect, nor suffering any Sect to invade those of another.

9. Because the proposed establishment is a departure from that generous policy, which, offering an asylum to the persecuted and oppressed of every Nation and Religion, promised a lustre to our country, and an accession to the number of its citizens. What a melancholy mark is the Bill of sudden degeneracy? Instead of holding forth an asylum to the persecuted, it is itself a signal of persecution. It degrades from the equal rank of Citizens all those whose opinions in Religion do not bend to those of the Legislative authority. Distant as it may be, in its present form, from the Inquisition it differs from it only in degree. The one is the first step, the other the last in the career of intolerance. The magnanimous sufferer under this cruel scourge in foreign Regions, must view the Bill as a Beacon on our Coast, warning him to seek some other haven, where liberty and philanthrophy in their due extent may offer a more certain repose from his troubles.

10. Because, it will have a like tendency to banish our Citizens. The allurements presented by other situations are [189] every day thinning their number. To superadd a fresh motive to emigration, by revoking the liberty which they now enjoy, would be the same species of folly which has dishonoured and depopulated flourishing kingdoms.

11. Because, it will destroy that moderation and harmony which the forbearance of our laws to intermeddle with Religion, has produced amongst its several sects. Torrents of blood have been spilt in the old world, by vain attempts of the secular arm to extinguish Religious discord, by proscribing all difference in Religious opinions. Time has at length revealed the true remedy. Every relaxation of narrow and rigorous policy, wherever it has been tried, has been found to assuage the disease. The American Theatre has exhibited proofs, that equal and compleat liberty, if it does not wholly eradicate it, sufficiently destroys its malignant influence on the health and prosperity of the State. If with the salutary effects of this system under our own eyes, we begin to contract the bonds of Religious freedom, we know no name that will too severely reproach our folly. At least let warning be taken at the first fruits of the threatened innovation. The very appearance of the Bill has transformed that “Christian forbearance,1 love and charity,” which of late mutually prevailed, into animosities and jealousies, which may not soon be appeased. What mischiefs may not be dreaded should this enemy to the public quiet be armed with the force of a law?

12. Because, the policy of the bill is adverse to the diffusion of the light of Christianity. The first wish of those who enjoy this precious gift, ought to be that it may be imparted to the whole race of mankind. Compare the number of those who have as yet received it with the number still remaining under the dominion of false Religions; and how small is the former! Does the policy of the Bill tend to lessen the disproportion? No; it at once discourages those who are strangers to the light of [revelation] from coming into the Region of it; and countenances, by example the nations who continue in darkness, in shutting out those who might convey it to them. Instead of [190] levelling as far as possible, every obstacle to the victorious progress of truth, the Bill with an ignoble and unchristian timidity would circumscribe it, with a wall of defence, against the encroachments of error.

13. Because attempts to enforce by legal sanctions, acts obnoxious to so great a proportion of Citizens, tend to enervate the laws in general, and to slacken the bands of Society. If it be difficult to execute any law which is not generally deemed necessary or salutary, what must be the case where it is deemed invalid and dangerous? and what may be the effect of so striking an example of impotency in the Government, on its general authority.

14. Because a measure of such singular magnitude and delicacy ought not to be imposed, without the clearest evidence that it is called for by a majority of citizens: and no satisfactory method is yet proposed by which the voice of the majority in this case may be determined, or its influence secured. “The people of the respective counties are indeed requested to signify their opinion respecting the adoption of the Bill to the next Session of Assembly.” But the representation must be made equal, before the voice either of the Representatives or of the Counties, will be that of the people. Our hope is that neither of the former will, after due consideration, espouse the dangerous principle of the Bill. Should the event disappoint us, it will still leave us in full confidence, that a fair appeal to the latter will reverse the sentence against our liberties.

15. Because, finally, “the equal right of every citizen to the free exercise of his Religion according to the dictates of conscience” is held by the same tenure with all our other rights. If we recur to its origin, it is equally the gift of nature; if we weigh its importance, it cannot be less dear to us; if we consult the Declaration of those rights which pertain to the good people of Virginia, as the “basis and foundation of Government,”1 it is enumerated with equal solemnity, or rather studied emphasis. Either then, we must say, that the will of the Legislature is the only measure of their authority; and that in the plenitude of this [191] authority, they may sweep away all our fundamental rights; or, that they are bound to leave this particular right untouched and sacred: Either we must say, that they may controul the freedom of the press, may abolish the trial by jury, may swallow up the Executive and Judiciary Powers of the State; nay that they may despoil us of our very right of suffrage, and erect themselves into an independant and hereditary assembly: or we must say, that they have no authority to enact into law the Bill under consideration. We the subscribers say, that the General Assembly of this Commonwealth have no such authority: And that no effort may be omitted on our part against so dangerous an usurpation, we oppose to it, this remonstrance; earnestly praying, as we are in duty bound, that the Supreme Lawgiver of the Universe, by illuminating those to whom it is addressed, may on the one hand, turn their councils from every act which would affront his holy prerogative, or violate the trust committed to them: and on the other, guide them into every measure which may be worthy of his [blessing, may re]dound to their own praise, and may establish more firmly the liberties, the prosperity, and the Happiness of the Commonwealth.

Last edited by Gary K; 07/16/17 04:01 AM.
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184570
07/16/17 04:37 AM
07/16/17 04:37 AM
dedication  Offline
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These men did have conviction, belief in a supreme Being, and a much higher standard of morality than what is seen today.

They did give America a government that surpassed everything that went before it, and I do believe God's hand was in it.

But that doesn't change the fact they were both freemasons, and deeply into that society. A society that has a dark side, as well some good principles.

Freemasonry was the first widespread and well-connected organization to espouse religious toleration and liberty.
It wasn't Christians that brought that in, as you can see in the laws of Connecticut which you posted on another thread.

Freemasonry believes in a "sovereign ruler".
However, it is highly discouraged to invoke the name of Jesus when praying, or mention His name in the Lodge. For someone to say that Jesus is the only way to God contradicts the principle of tolerance. Jesus is on the same level as other historical religious leaders. Salvation is not through Jesus, but through morality.
The Bible is regarded as a great religious book, but so is the Koran and other revered religious books.

Quote:
Washington and other early American Freemasons rejected a European past in which one overarching authority regulated the exchange of ideas. And this outlook is found in one of the greatest symbols associated with Freemasonry: The eye-and-pyramid of the Great Seal of the United States, familiar today from the back of the dollar bill.
The Great Seal's design began on July 4th, 1776, on an order from the Continental Congress and under the direction of Benjamin Franklin (another Freemason), Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams.
The Latin maxim that surrounds the unfinished pyramid—Annuit Coeptis Novus Ordo Seclorum—can be roughly, if poetically, translated as: "God Smiles on Our New Order of the Ages." It is Masonic philosophy to the core: The pyramid, or worldly achievement, is incomplete without the blessing of Providence. And this polity of man and God, as Masonry saw it, required a break with the religious order of the Old World and a renewed search for universal truth. In its symbols and ideas, Masonry conveyed a sense that something new was being born in America: that the individual's conscience was beyond denominational affiliation or government command.


There's a book:

Letters on Freemasonry
by John Quincy Adams (Author)

He definitely believed in a sovereign God as all freemasons do -- but was it the masonic idea of "god" or the Christian God?
He speaks much about the sovereign God, the protection of God, both private and national, the plan of God especially for America, the grand design of God. But does he ever speak of the gospel and of Jesus Christ our Savior?

George Washington

The evidence that he was a high ranking freemason is well known.


Now if you show me where they expressed their belief in Jesus Christ our Savior -- that would be better evidence that they were Christians.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: dedication] #184575
07/16/17 05:35 AM
07/16/17 05:35 AM
G
Garywk  Offline OP
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Colville, Wa
Well, the freemasons love to count George Washington as a member. Who wouldn't have wanted George Washington's name associated with them? However, Washington only attended 4 freemason meetings during his lifetime even though he joined at age 20. He was made the leader of a lodge near his home, but that was at the request of the lodge due to his fame.

As to his belief in Jesus as his Savior:
Quote:
“O eternal and everlasting God…Increase my faith in the gospels…daily frame me more and more into the likeness of thy son Jesus Christ, that living in thy fear, and dying in thy favor, I may in thy appointed time attain the resurrection of the just unto eternal life.”


This is found in his prayer journal. It looks like a Christian prayer to me. I have prayed very similar prayers, but instead of using the appellation for God Washington does, I use Father in heaven. I would have to say I would be really hesitant to judge that as a non-Christian prayer given that I live more than 200 years after Washington did and so we may simply have very different ways of addressing God.

The following link is a list of men who signed the declaration of independence. While some do not mention Jesus or His being our Savior, many do.

https://wallbuilders.com/founding-fathers-jesus-christianity-bible/

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184578
07/16/17 08:13 AM
07/16/17 08:13 AM
dedication  Offline
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It's not a matter of judging them as to how much of their belief stemmed from Christianity and how much came from Free Masonry.

There is a lot of evidence that these men were more than just causal visitors to the lodges. They were practicing the craft.

But what is your point in posting all this?

Usually the ones who want to turn these men into devoted Christians do so in the hopes of making America a Christian nation "again" with a "Christian government" --or sacral society.

But you clarified that was not what you were doing. So I'm curious as to why?


The Christians in early America tended to be sacral oriented in their governing, not for freedom of religion at all.
They wanted freedom for THEIR religion, but by their laws, THEIR religion must be accepted by all members of the colony.

Other than Rodger Williams and his Rhode Island colony, there really wasn't much freedom of religion in the Northern Colonies in the early years.

The war of independence and the country's government granting freedoms, didn't really stem from Christian thought, but rather both were motivated and build on principles from the "Age of Reason", which was the foundation of freemasonry. The ideas of Locke are held in high regard by the freemasons.

This "age of reason" and freemasonry, also motivated the French Revolution as pointed out earlier.

When tempered with solid Protestant Christian values, it is a blessing. But when Protestants renounce their Protestantism, and loose their spiritual influence in this freedom, the dark side of freemasonry will surface.

And I think we are seeing that now.

Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: dedication] #184580
07/16/17 01:52 PM
07/16/17 01:52 PM
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Garywk  Offline OP
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Colville, Wa
Originally Posted By: dedication
It's not a matter of judging them as to how much of their belief stemmed from Christianity and how much came from Free Masonry.

There is a lot of evidence that these men were more than just causal visitors to the lodges. They were practicing the craft.

But what is your point in posting all this?

Usually the ones who want to turn these men into devoted Christians do so in the hopes of making America a Christian nation "again" with a "Christian government" --or sacral society.

But you clarified that was not what you were doing. So I'm curious as to why?


The Christians in early America tended to be sacral oriented in their governing, not for freedom of religion at all.
They wanted freedom for THEIR religion, but by their laws, THEIR religion must be accepted by all members of the colony.

Other than Rodger Williams and his Rhode Island colony, there really wasn't much freedom of religion in the Northern Colonies in the early years.

The war of independence and the country's government granting freedoms, didn't really stem from Christian thought, but rather both were motivated and build on principles from the "Age of Reason", which was the foundation of freemasonry. The ideas of Locke are held in high regard by the freemasons.

This "age of reason" and freemasonry, also motivated the French Revolution as pointed out earlier.

When tempered with solid Protestant Christian values, it is a blessing. But when Protestants renounce their Protestantism, and loose their spiritual influence in this freedom, the dark side of freemasonry will surface.

And I think we are seeing that now.




Quote:
Now if you show me where they expressed their belief in Jesus Christ our Savior -- that would be better evidence that they were Christians.


I show it to you and what do you do? Ask me why I'm showing it to you....

It is historical fact that during those days the taverns were the local community gathering places. de Toqueville, when he toured the US for more than a year, says he was astonished at how the entire populace was involved in talking politics on an everyday basis. Everyone followed what was going on and got involved, not like it is today, where only about half even vote and many of those have no real idea as to the issues involved. I wonder how much of the going to the freemason hall was just a part of that. A sort of social gathering spot to discuss politics and to be with peers they had things in common with for these signers of the Declaration of Independence were a group of men who had succeeded in business.

I have studied our history a lot. I have read hundreds of books on the subject over my lifetime. And from what I've read there is a close tie to Christian principles in the founding of our country. To me this is a lot like those who claim Abraham Lincoln was pro slavery because of some of the things he did as President. If you read his actual writings it just isn't true. From his private letters it is very clear that he detested slavery from the very depths of his being. The man was so sensitive to other people's pain, and even the pain of animals, that he would show up late for court sometimes because, even though he knew he would be late, he would stop to help people or animals out of bad situations. His personal integrity was such that I have a very hard time seeing the man doing the manipulation he is accused of. The same holds true in this. Some of these men against whom you make the accusations were men of the highest moral standing of any we have ever seen in this country. And yet you would make all of that a sham. I'm not big believer in people, in fact trust is something I'm not real big on, but after a lifetime of study this just runs against everything I've ever known.

I would have to see, also, the connection between socialism and freemasonry, which is one I have never seen. Why? Because socialism is at the root of the Federal Reserve, the IMF, and the World Bank. These institutions are the ones who are really displaying the signs of evil. They are the ones intentionally bankrupting this world for their own political purposes, and using that money they take from the people to finance the worst of villains/dictators who destroy their own people in their mad lust for power and wealth. They are intentionally taking this world back to a feudal type of system through economic warfare.

In fact, the only people I have ever seen pushing the freemason angle like you do have come from the political left who want to completely sever all ties to morality and Christianity because those things hold back their agenda. And they do what you do to destroy faith in the founding fathers and portray this country as having always been very evil. And it's simply not true. So I have a real built-in resistance to your claims. I would have to see a whole lot more evidence to accept your assertions. It would take a whole lot of documentation to overcome all the documentation I have seen that indicates otherwise.

In this country, in those days, the reality was that the people actually were the ones who held the power. It's not like things are today where politicians do whatever they like and just lie about everything. Then the voters were so educated that a politician just couldn't get away with lying to the voter. They were forced to tell the truth because if they didn't, the voters would kick them out of office.

Last edited by Gary K; 07/16/17 02:03 PM.
Re: Imminent financial crash ccoming [Re: ] #184581
07/16/17 02:43 PM
07/16/17 02:43 PM
G
Garywk  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Additionally, Ellen White says that God was very involved in the founding of the US. This country is here because He was involved in its creation. And, just like the nation of Israel, because of sin it has lost its way.

Quote:
Roger Williams was respected and beloved as a faithful minister, a man of rare gifts, of unbending integrity and true benevolence; yet his steadfast denial of the right of civil magistrates to authority over the church, and his demand for religious liberty, could not be tolerated. The application of this new doctrine, it was urged, would “subvert the fundamental state and government of the country.”—Ibid., pt. 1, ch. 15, par. 10. He was sentenced to banishment from the colonies, and, finally, to avoid arrest, he was forced to flee, amid the cold and storms of winter, into the unbroken forest.
“For fourteen weeks,” he says, “I was sorely tossed in a bitter season, not knowing what bread or bed did mean.” [295] But “the ravens fed me in the wilderness,” and a hollow tree often served him for a shelter.—Martyn, vol. 5, pp. 349, 350. Thus he continued his painful flight through the snow and the trackless forest, until he found refuge with an Indian tribe whose confidence and affection he had won while endeavoring to teach them the truths of the gospel.
Making his way at last, after months of change and wandering, to the shores of Narragansett Bay, he there laid the foundation of the first state of modern times that in the fullest sense recognized the right of religious freedom. The fundamental principle of Roger Williams’s colony was “that every man should have liberty to worship God according to the light of his own conscience.”—Ibid., vol. 5, p. 354. His little state, Rhode Island, became the asylum of the oppressed, and it increased and prospered until its foundation principles—civil and religious liberty—became the cornerstones of the American Republic.
In that grand old document which our forefathers set forth as their bill of rights—the Declaration of Independence—they declared: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” And the Constitution guarantees, in the most explicit terms, the inviolability of conscience: “No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
“The framers of the Constitution recognized the eternal principle that man’s relation with his God is above human legislation, and his rights of conscience inalienable. Reasoning was not necessary to establish this truth; we are conscious of it in our own bosoms. It is this consciousness which, in defiance of human laws, has sustained so many martyrs in tortures and flames. They felt that their duty to God was superior to human enactments, and that man could exercise [296] no authority over their consciences. It is an inborn principle which nothing can eradicate.”—Congressional documents (U.S.A.), serial No. 200, document No. 271. Great Controversy pp. 294-297


Just what is it Ellen White says here? That which completely contradicts your assertions. She does not attribute the liberty of conscience to freemasonry. She attributes it to the influence that grew out of Rhode Island and Roger Williams. Funny how you missed that in your Ellen White quotes.

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