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#184665 - 07/26/17 03:31 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
The Wanderer Offline
SDA
Active Member 2017

Supporting Member 2017
Full Member
Registered: 04/03/17
Posts: 242
Loc: Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: dedication

So if a person just needs any kind of belief in Christ -- there's going to be quite a mixed multitude in heaven.

There's more to a "belief" that leads to salvation in Jesus.
A point well-taken, for we are told that even demons believe in Jesus:

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2:19) but it must be noted that the quality or type of "belief" noted here leaves the demons literally trembling in fear. The other type of "belief, is that faith which worketh by love:

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (Gal 5:6)
Quote:
Genuine faith always works by love. When you look to Calvary it is not to quiet your soul in the non-performance of duty, not to compose yourself to sleep, but to create faith in Jesus, faith that will work, purifying the soul from the slime of selfishness. When we lay hold of Christ by faith, our work has just begun. Every man has corrupt and sinful habits that must be overcome by vigorous warfare. Every soul is required to fight the fight of faith. If one is a follower of Christ, he cannot be sharp in deal, he cannot be hardhearted, devoid of sympathy. He cannot be coarse in his speech. He cannot be full of pomposity and self-esteem. He cannot be overbearing, nor can he use harsh words, and censure and condemn. {6BC 1111.4}
Demons and their "belief" has nothing to do with the "works by love" aspect of belief in Christ. The sanctuary message perfectly portrays the "works by love" that we can all experience.
_________________________
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)

- The Wanderer
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#184670 - 07/26/17 01:03 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
James Peterson Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2017

Senior Member
Registered: 07/28/13
Posts: 744
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: Karen Y

The one of the seven-head ruled during the Dark Ages and that beast will repeat the same wickedness at the end-time. The Book of Revelation mentions of the beast's past, present and future.

The third angel's message of 'do not receive the mark of the beast' is given to God's church. The last head of the seven-headed beast is going to enforce the mark of the beast to the saints of God in the end-time and we are living in the end time!
God is telling us the seven-headed beast is the one and the same power which oppresses God's church until the end.

Well said!

And those are the UNBELIEVERS (Atheists, Muslims, Agnostics, Buddhists, anyone who does not believe in Christ).

But we are of those who believe, the World Body of Christians (Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, SDA, Mormons, etc).

///


Muslims believe in Jesus.
As seen here

"Muslims respect and revere Jesus (peace be upon him). They consider him one of the greatest of God’s messengers to mankind. The Quran confirms his virgin birth,...During his prophetic mission, Jesus performed many miracles. God tells us that Jesus said: .. I heal the blind from birth and the leper. And I bring the dead to life by God’s permission. ..


So if a person just needs any kind of belief in Christ -- there's going to be quite a mixed multitude in heaven.

There's more to a "belief" that leads to salvation in Jesus.





Excellent point as always!

Indeed, there is more to a "belief in Jesus". For salvation requires faith in the redemptive sacrifice He made and the hope of eternal life through Him.
  • Therefore, the UNBELIEVERS (Atheists, Muslims, Agnostics, Buddhists, etc) know about Jesus and may acknowledge that he did great things.
     
  • But we are of those who BELIEVE, the World Body of Christians (Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, SDA, Mormons, etc). For our life is hid in Him looking forward to the day when we shall be like Him at His Second Advent.

These two classes (Unbelievers vs Believers) are headed for a clash for while the former denounces it, the latter upholds the Gospel of the Kingdom.

///
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#184671 - 07/26/17 01:03 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: The Wanderer]
James Peterson Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2017

Senior Member
Registered: 07/28/13
Posts: 744
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: dedication

So if a person just needs any kind of belief in Christ -- there's going to be quite a mixed multitude in heaven.

There's more to a "belief" that leads to salvation in Jesus.
A point well-taken, for we are told that even demons believe in Jesus:

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2:19) but it must be noted that the quality or type of "belief" noted here leaves the demons literally trembling in fear. The other type of "belief, is that faith which worketh by love:

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (Gal 5:6)
Quote:
Genuine faith always works by love. When you look to Calvary it is not to quiet your soul in the non-performance of duty, not to compose yourself to sleep, but to create faith in Jesus, faith that will work, purifying the soul from the slime of selfishness. When we lay hold of Christ by faith, our work has just begun. Every man has corrupt and sinful habits that must be overcome by vigorous warfare. Every soul is required to fight the fight of faith. If one is a follower of Christ, he cannot be sharp in deal, he cannot be hardhearted, devoid of sympathy. He cannot be coarse in his speech. He cannot be full of pomposity and self-esteem. He cannot be overbearing, nor can he use harsh words, and censure and condemn. {6BC 1111.4}
Demons and their "belief" has nothing to do with the "works by love" aspect of belief in Christ. The sanctuary message perfectly portrays the "works by love" that we can all experience.

See post above.

///
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#184705 - 07/30/17 02:09 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: James Peterson]
dedication Online   content
Global Moderator
4000+ Member
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 4049
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: James Peterson


The reason why SDA jump hoops, hurdles, backwards and forwards and tie themselves up tightly in a knot is because Ellen White assured them that THEY (and no other) were the ones spoken of in Rev. 12:17, i.e. the Remnant.

Not really correct -- sorry.

The remnant, as the scripture themselves point out in Rev. 12:27 and 19:10) are they that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus which is the spirit of prophecy.
It's not the denomination that makes one part of the last remnant, but having faith in Christ, and following Him in loving obedience to God's commandments. It's hard to find a denomination that encourages one to follow all ten commandments and has a good understanding of Bible prophecy.

Adventists, like the reformers, interpreted prophecy in the historicist method -- that is -- they see the prophecies covering time from the prophet's day (John in this case) to the end.

Like the Reformers, Adventists have interpreted the prophetic time lines in Daniel and Revelation by the day for a year principle.

Thus in Revelation, as Karen pointed out, the prophetic time of 1260 years is repeatedly mentioned.
The 42 months (30 X 42 = 1260) Rev. 11:2 and 13:5
Times, time and half a time (2 years, 1 year, half year) (3X360+180=1260) Rev. 12:14
And simply 1260 days (years) in Rev, 12;6 and 11:3

This is the reign of Christian oppression by the horn in Daniel seven, and the 1st beast of Rev. 13, under the influence of the great red dragon of Rev. 12.

This isn't something Adventists alone believed. A lot of the protestant churches believed it once. The reformers believed it. But now other forms of interpreting prophecies have come in-- even into the Adventist church causing confusion.

Thus the prophecy in 2 Thess. chapter 2 will come to full fulfillment --
The falling away that occurred in those 1260 years and which the reformers gave their very lives to break free from, will again set itself up IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD (which you pointed out was God's people and I agree with you in this verse) that is the papal power will again set itself up to control religion, and the world is being swept with a terrible delusion.

Originally Posted By: James P

But the Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ (the TRUE Spirit of Prophecy) says plainly, "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." (Rev. 1:3) To those who first heard it, within a hundred years, that very generation was going to witness the events portrayed in it.


Oh -- so you are of the Preterits line of thought?

Well, I suppose since you called our beliefs "darkened understanding", you shouldn't object if I mention that I think the preterits understanding is "darkened understanding".

It misses most of the prophecy given us by the very "spirit of prophecy" which you say is true ==that which is found in Revelation!

It also nicely wipes out all the warnings of what happens in the Christian church over those 2000 years you guys were talking about.
Remember,Paul also talks about what happens in the Christian church in years prior to Christ's coming --
in 2 Thess chapter 2.
Your glowing concept of a faith filled, everyone saved, Christian community of all religions would be wonderful, if it were true.
But it isn't true -- it is a delusion.
And it's not just Adventists who know it isn't true. I have some excellent books by writers from other denominations who know it is not true.
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#184791 - 08/04/17 11:40 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
Karen Y Offline
SDA
Active Member 2016

Full Member
Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 268
Loc: Michigan, US
Originally Posted By: dedication

Thus in Revelation, as Karen pointed out, the prophetic time of 1260 years is repeatedly mentioned.
The 42 months (30 X 42 = 1260) Rev. 11:2 and 13:5
Times, time and half a time (2 years, 1 year, half year) (3X360+180=1260) Rev. 12:14
And simply 1260 days (years) in Rev, 12;6 and 11:3

This is the reign of Christian oppression by the horn in Daniel seven, and the 1st beast of Rev. 13, under the influence of the great red dragon of Rev. 12.



The first beast of Rev. 13 is the Papacy that ruled during the Dark Ages of 1,260 years. God is unmasking the identity of the beast in the prophetic time, which is mentioned seven times in Daniel and Revelation. Knowing the beast's identity is very important to God's people because he is repeating the same evil acts of the past history. Thank you, Dedication, for your comments.

Quote:
Thus the prophecy in 2 Thess. chapter 2 will come to full fulfillment --
The falling away that occurred in those 1260 years and which the reformers gave their very lives to break free from, will again set itself up IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD (which you pointed out was God's people and I agree with you in this verse) that is the papal power will again set itself up to control religion, and the world is being swept with a terrible delusion.


Some think that the beast is not doing anything much in our religious world at this end-time. Scripture says, this beast is destroyer - in the Hebrew tongue Abaddon. He is the angel of the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:11, 11:7, 17:8).

God sends messenger (angel) to His Seven Churches and the angel of the bottomless pit also sends his messenger, the counter-angel to the Seven Churches, to oppress and destroy.

The beast is one of the three evil spirits of Rev. 16:13-14. The dragon (paganism), the beast (Papacy) and the false prophets (Apostate Protestant) unite to destroy God's people. This activity is called Armageddon in the Hebrew tongue (Rev. 16:16).

The individual beast is named in the Hebrew tongue ; Abaddon, but when he unites with other religious powers, they are referred together as Armageddon in the Hebrew tongue; the destroyers.

Armageddon is not something that is going to happen in the future but what is happening right now by the powers of the destroyers, namely, the dragon, the beast and the false prophets. The threefold union is creating the enforcement of the mark of the beast. We have to be vigilant and watchful: "blessed is he that watcheth, and keeepeth his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame" (Rev. 16:15).
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