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#184665 - 07/26/17 03:31 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
The Wanderer Offline
SDA
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Registered: 04/03/17
Posts: 253
Loc: Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: dedication

So if a person just needs any kind of belief in Christ -- there's going to be quite a mixed multitude in heaven.

There's more to a "belief" that leads to salvation in Jesus.
A point well-taken, for we are told that even demons believe in Jesus:

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2:19) but it must be noted that the quality or type of "belief" noted here leaves the demons literally trembling in fear. The other type of "belief, is that faith which worketh by love:

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (Gal 5:6)
Quote:
Genuine faith always works by love. When you look to Calvary it is not to quiet your soul in the non-performance of duty, not to compose yourself to sleep, but to create faith in Jesus, faith that will work, purifying the soul from the slime of selfishness. When we lay hold of Christ by faith, our work has just begun. Every man has corrupt and sinful habits that must be overcome by vigorous warfare. Every soul is required to fight the fight of faith. If one is a follower of Christ, he cannot be sharp in deal, he cannot be hardhearted, devoid of sympathy. He cannot be coarse in his speech. He cannot be full of pomposity and self-esteem. He cannot be overbearing, nor can he use harsh words, and censure and condemn. {6BC 1111.4}
Demons and their "belief" has nothing to do with the "works by love" aspect of belief in Christ. The sanctuary message perfectly portrays the "works by love" that we can all experience.
_________________________
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)

- The Wanderer
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#184670 - 07/26/17 01:03 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
James Peterson Offline
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Registered: 07/28/13
Posts: 744
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: Karen Y

The one of the seven-head ruled during the Dark Ages and that beast will repeat the same wickedness at the end-time. The Book of Revelation mentions of the beast's past, present and future.

The third angel's message of 'do not receive the mark of the beast' is given to God's church. The last head of the seven-headed beast is going to enforce the mark of the beast to the saints of God in the end-time and we are living in the end time!
God is telling us the seven-headed beast is the one and the same power which oppresses God's church until the end.

Well said!

And those are the UNBELIEVERS (Atheists, Muslims, Agnostics, Buddhists, anyone who does not believe in Christ).

But we are of those who believe, the World Body of Christians (Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, SDA, Mormons, etc).

///


Muslims believe in Jesus.
As seen here

"Muslims respect and revere Jesus (peace be upon him). They consider him one of the greatest of God’s messengers to mankind. The Quran confirms his virgin birth,...During his prophetic mission, Jesus performed many miracles. God tells us that Jesus said: .. I heal the blind from birth and the leper. And I bring the dead to life by God’s permission. ..


So if a person just needs any kind of belief in Christ -- there's going to be quite a mixed multitude in heaven.

There's more to a "belief" that leads to salvation in Jesus.





Excellent point as always!

Indeed, there is more to a "belief in Jesus". For salvation requires faith in the redemptive sacrifice He made and the hope of eternal life through Him.
  • Therefore, the UNBELIEVERS (Atheists, Muslims, Agnostics, Buddhists, etc) know about Jesus and may acknowledge that he did great things.
     
  • But we are of those who BELIEVE, the World Body of Christians (Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, SDA, Mormons, etc). For our life is hid in Him looking forward to the day when we shall be like Him at His Second Advent.

These two classes (Unbelievers vs Believers) are headed for a clash for while the former denounces it, the latter upholds the Gospel of the Kingdom.

///
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#184671 - 07/26/17 01:03 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: The Wanderer]
James Peterson Offline
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Active Member 2017

Senior Member
Registered: 07/28/13
Posts: 744
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: dedication

So if a person just needs any kind of belief in Christ -- there's going to be quite a mixed multitude in heaven.

There's more to a "belief" that leads to salvation in Jesus.
A point well-taken, for we are told that even demons believe in Jesus:

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2:19) but it must be noted that the quality or type of "belief" noted here leaves the demons literally trembling in fear. The other type of "belief, is that faith which worketh by love:

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (Gal 5:6)
Quote:
Genuine faith always works by love. When you look to Calvary it is not to quiet your soul in the non-performance of duty, not to compose yourself to sleep, but to create faith in Jesus, faith that will work, purifying the soul from the slime of selfishness. When we lay hold of Christ by faith, our work has just begun. Every man has corrupt and sinful habits that must be overcome by vigorous warfare. Every soul is required to fight the fight of faith. If one is a follower of Christ, he cannot be sharp in deal, he cannot be hardhearted, devoid of sympathy. He cannot be coarse in his speech. He cannot be full of pomposity and self-esteem. He cannot be overbearing, nor can he use harsh words, and censure and condemn. {6BC 1111.4}
Demons and their "belief" has nothing to do with the "works by love" aspect of belief in Christ. The sanctuary message perfectly portrays the "works by love" that we can all experience.

See post above.

///
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#184705 - 07/30/17 02:09 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: James Peterson]
dedication Online   content

Global Moderator
4000+ Member
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 4239
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: James Peterson


The reason why SDA jump hoops, hurdles, backwards and forwards and tie themselves up tightly in a knot is because Ellen White assured them that THEY (and no other) were the ones spoken of in Rev. 12:17, i.e. the Remnant.

Not really correct -- sorry.

The remnant, as the scripture themselves point out in Rev. 12:27 and 19:10) are they that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus which is the spirit of prophecy.
It's not the denomination that makes one part of the last remnant, but having faith in Christ, and following Him in loving obedience to God's commandments. It's hard to find a denomination that encourages one to follow all ten commandments and has a good understanding of Bible prophecy.

Adventists, like the reformers, interpreted prophecy in the historicist method -- that is -- they see the prophecies covering time from the prophet's day (John in this case) to the end.

Like the Reformers, Adventists have interpreted the prophetic time lines in Daniel and Revelation by the day for a year principle.

Thus in Revelation, as Karen pointed out, the prophetic time of 1260 years is repeatedly mentioned.
The 42 months (30 X 42 = 1260) Rev. 11:2 and 13:5
Times, time and half a time (2 years, 1 year, half year) (3X360+180=1260) Rev. 12:14
And simply 1260 days (years) in Rev, 12;6 and 11:3

This is the reign of Christian oppression by the horn in Daniel seven, and the 1st beast of Rev. 13, under the influence of the great red dragon of Rev. 12.

This isn't something Adventists alone believed. A lot of the protestant churches believed it once. The reformers believed it. But now other forms of interpreting prophecies have come in-- even into the Adventist church causing confusion.

Thus the prophecy in 2 Thess. chapter 2 will come to full fulfillment --
The falling away that occurred in those 1260 years and which the reformers gave their very lives to break free from, will again set itself up IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD (which you pointed out was God's people and I agree with you in this verse) that is the papal power will again set itself up to control religion, and the world is being swept with a terrible delusion.

Originally Posted By: James P

But the Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ (the TRUE Spirit of Prophecy) says plainly, "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." (Rev. 1:3) To those who first heard it, within a hundred years, that very generation was going to witness the events portrayed in it.


Oh -- so you are of the Preterits line of thought?

Well, I suppose since you called our beliefs "darkened understanding", you shouldn't object if I mention that I think the preterits understanding is "darkened understanding".

It misses most of the prophecy given us by the very "spirit of prophecy" which you say is true ==that which is found in Revelation!

It also nicely wipes out all the warnings of what happens in the Christian church over those 2000 years you guys were talking about.
Remember,Paul also talks about what happens in the Christian church in years prior to Christ's coming --
in 2 Thess chapter 2.
Your glowing concept of a faith filled, everyone saved, Christian community of all religions would be wonderful, if it were true.
But it isn't true -- it is a delusion.
And it's not just Adventists who know it isn't true. I have some excellent books by writers from other denominations who know it is not true.
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#184791 - 08/04/17 11:40 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
Karen Y Offline
SDA
Active Member 2016

Full Member
Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 274
Loc: Michigan, US
Originally Posted By: dedication

Thus in Revelation, as Karen pointed out, the prophetic time of 1260 years is repeatedly mentioned.
The 42 months (30 X 42 = 1260) Rev. 11:2 and 13:5
Times, time and half a time (2 years, 1 year, half year) (3X360+180=1260) Rev. 12:14
And simply 1260 days (years) in Rev, 12;6 and 11:3

This is the reign of Christian oppression by the horn in Daniel seven, and the 1st beast of Rev. 13, under the influence of the great red dragon of Rev. 12.



The first beast of Rev. 13 is the Papacy that ruled during the Dark Ages of 1,260 years. God is unmasking the identity of the beast in the prophetic time, which is mentioned seven times in Daniel and Revelation. Knowing the beast's identity is very important to God's people because he is repeating the same evil acts of the past history. Thank you, Dedication, for your comments.

Quote:
Thus the prophecy in 2 Thess. chapter 2 will come to full fulfillment --
The falling away that occurred in those 1260 years and which the reformers gave their very lives to break free from, will again set itself up IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD (which you pointed out was God's people and I agree with you in this verse) that is the papal power will again set itself up to control religion, and the world is being swept with a terrible delusion.


Some think that the beast is not doing anything much in our religious world at this end-time. Scripture says, this beast is destroyer - in the Hebrew tongue Abaddon. He is the angel of the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:11, 11:7, 17:8).

God sends messenger (angel) to His Seven Churches and the angel of the bottomless pit also sends his messenger, the counter-angel to the Seven Churches, to oppress and destroy.

The beast is one of the three evil spirits of Rev. 16:13-14. The dragon (paganism), the beast (Papacy) and the false prophets (Apostate Protestant) unite to destroy God's people. This activity is called Armageddon in the Hebrew tongue (Rev. 16:16).

The individual beast is named in the Hebrew tongue ; Abaddon, but when he unites with other religious powers, they are referred together as Armageddon in the Hebrew tongue; the destroyers.

Armageddon is not something that is going to happen in the future but what is happening right now by the powers of the destroyers, namely, the dragon, the beast and the false prophets. The threefold union is creating the enforcement of the mark of the beast. We have to be vigilant and watchful: "blessed is he that watcheth, and keeepeth his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame" (Rev. 16:15).
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#185004 - 08/26/17 09:51 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Karen Y Offline
SDA
Active Member 2016

Full Member
Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 274
Loc: Michigan, US
The Seven Trumpets are not about God's intervention in response to the prayers of His oppressed people in the past history. Many believe that the trumpets' sound heralds God's judgment against those who have harmed His people. This class of thoughts was popular belief at the time when God's people did not have the knowledge of the heavenly sanctuary.

The sanctuary truth was discovered after the Great Disappointment in 1844. We must reconsider the Seven Trumpets message since we understand the snapshot of the introduction of the Seven Trumpets vision is the ministry of Jesus' intercession in the heavenly sanctuary. Without this knowledge, we cannot possibly interpret the Seven Trumpets message correct. In other words, the interpretation of the historical account is prove to be a flaw.

Yes, the intentions of the sounding of the trumpets was to begin after Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Yes, it occurs while Jesus intercedes in heaven. But the sound of the trumpets has never gone out to the inhabitant of the earth as indicated in Rev. 8:13. There was never a worldwide proclamation regarding the "woe, woe, woe" in the past two thousand years.

I believe that it is God's providence that we discover at the present time what is about the Seven Trumpets message. I have presented my understanding in this forum why I think it is the warning of the close of probation. Let's look at the sixth trumpet again.

The sixth trumpet portrays that the four angels are loosing their hold so the four winds will unleash the earth to harm. A command came from the four horns of the altar, which means that the sacrificial offering of Jesus' blood was accepted by the Father: the atonement is made. This imagery is clear indication of the close of probation. (See Exodus 30:10).

At this point, the 200 million horsemen are released to slay the third part of men on earth: more than 2.5 billions of people by current world population. This is none but the indignation of the wrath of God: the close of probation. (See Rev. 9:13-21).

God's people must sound the sixth trumpet worldwide before the imminent close of probation as well as all the other trumpets message because they are all about the same issue: the close of probation.
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#185133 - 09/13/17 10:34 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Karen Y Offline
SDA
Active Member 2016

Full Member
Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 274
Loc: Michigan, US
The guideline for Revelation interpretation is the sanctuary typology.

The introductory vision of the seven trumpets reveals the theme of the close of probation by the casting of fire, which foretells that each trumpet’s sound speaks about the prediction of imminent end of His mediatorial work.  

If we interpret the snapshot of Jesus’ interceding ministry to be only in the locality of the Holy Place, we undermine His final work of the Most Holy Place. The assumption throws off a proper interpretation.

In the sanctuary typology, the high priest’s final work involved taking out the golden censer from the Most Holy Place and casting the fire of the golden altar (Lev. 16:12-13). This sanctuary imagery parallels with the imagery of Jesus’ ministry in Rev. 8:3-4. Furthermore, the imagery of applying blood to the four horns by Aaron, the high priest, is revealed in the sixth trumpet's announcement: “a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God” commanded to release the four angels who were holding the four corners of the earth (Rev. 9:13-14).

The Day of Atonement is sustained throughout the Seven Trumpets message. If we define that Jesus is only in the Holy Place at this visionary sequence, the judgment of casting down of the fire then misconstrues to the judgment upon the nations that oppress God’s people, and this has no basis with the sanctuary typology. The significance of the snapshot is about the judgment ending in the heavenly sanctuary.
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#185143 - 09/16/17 12:52 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
dedication Online   content

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Registered: 04/25/04
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I haven't commented much on this "reconsidering" issue other than in the first few pages of this thread.

I believe the historicist method of interpreting prophecy is the correct framework to understanding the trumpets and we are pulling up the anchors of our prophetic understanding by calling it "flawed".
Yes, we can learn MORE about these trumpets, but we need to keep them in the historicist setting.

Yes, they are understood in sanctuary typology.
But remember, the FEAST of TRUMPETS came BEFORE the day of atonement.
They announce the coming of the day of Atonement, not the ending of the day of Atonement.

Here's a study -- given well after 1844 -- in 1900, when the "righteousness by faith" message was being preached, and the sanctuary message was very much part of Adventism.


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#185146 - 09/16/17 06:04 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
dedication Online   content

Global Moderator
4000+ Member
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 4239
Loc: Canada
I'll be posting those articles on another thread==
The Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message

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#185155 - 09/17/17 07:35 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
Karen Y Offline
SDA
Active Member 2016

Full Member
Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 274
Loc: Michigan, US
Originally Posted By: dedication


I believe the historicist method of interpreting prophecy is the correct framework to understanding the trumpets and we are pulling up the anchors of our prophetic understanding by calling it "flawed".
Yes, we can learn MORE about these trumpets, but we need to keep them in the historicist setting.


The seven trumpets' introductory sanctuary scene depicts Christ’s priestly ministry of intercession. It means that the context has to remain in the background of the entire visionary sequence of the seven trumpets until casting of the fire, which depicts the close of probation. In this sense, it is historical for the sounding of the trumpets.

However, I believe that each trumpet sound does not depict historical EVENT. Considering how the threefold woe is announced, I understand that each trumpet is speaking about "woe" upon the inhabitant of the earth. The sound of the trumpet is the woes: "Woe, woe, woe, ... by reason of the other voices ..., which are yet to sound!" (Rev. 8:13). The passage is saying the REASON OF THE SOUNDING of the trumpet is woes.

So "One woe is past" means the sounding of the first trumpet of the threefold woe has blown (Rev. 9:12). Likewise, "The second woe is past" means the sounding of the second trumpet of the threefold woe has sounded (Rev. 11:14). In the third woe, "behold, the third woe cometh quickly" means the sounding of the third woe come quickly (Rev. 11:14). These soundings of the threefold woe must come before the close of probation as well as the first four trumpets sounding. Thus, the seven trumpets are all connected with the outlined sanctuary pattern.

The contextual evidence of the seven trumpets message highlights the antitypical Day of Atonement, which means it is announcing the approaching of the termination of the judgment day. The announcement of the trumpet is taking place during probationary time and remain open through all the trumpet sounding would go out, and the actual fulfillment of the announcement matures at the close of probation.

In Rev. 10:11, the verse indicate that the “prophesy again” is the overarching theme of the seven trumpets as one unit. Basically, the message of the seven trumpets is indicating that we should behold Christ in the heavenly sanctuary before He cast down the fire and closes the probationary time. The three angels message is succinctly proclaimed in the announcement of the seven trumpets that Jesus Christ is our only Assurance. God is sending out the final call in trumpet's sound and to repent before too late.

So people in the world may still respond to the three angels gospel message while the seven trumpets are sounding. I see these as the evidence that the seven trumpets are announcement rather than sequential historical events. The introductory scene remain in view while the seven trumpets are announcing the alarm about the mercy’s door closing imminently and eternally.

Quote:
But remember, the FEAST of TRUMPETS came BEFORE the day of atonement.
They announce the coming of the day of Atonement, not the ending of the day of Atonement.


There is the blowing of the trumpet with the termination of the Day of Atonement in sanctuary typology. In the Feast of Trumpets, which falling on the first day of the seventh month ushered in the time of judgment that led up to the Day of Atonement. In Lev. 25:9, “Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land.”

I believe that the antitypical Day of Atonement terminates with loud sound of trumpets, which is the Jubilee in reality and we shall be ushered into the kingdom of our Lord, Jesus Christ, and shall reign with Him for ever and ever.
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