People have long been trying to find the dates.
The Bible gives genealogies, yet there is enough vagueness there to keep people from arriving at an absolute date.
I don't believe the SDA church stands behind any precise date for creation.



What is fairly plain by adding together all the genealogies, is that time from creation to Jesus birth was about 4000 years.

But the actual starting date varies:
Here's just a list that have been considered:

Chronologist -- Calculated -- Date of Earth's Beginnings
H. Spondanus..... 1600......... 4051
Martin Anstey... 1913........... 4042
W. Lange......................... 4041
E. Reinholt...................... 4021
J. Cappellus......1600.......... 4005
E. Greswell..... 1830.......... 4004
E. Faulstich.... 1986.......... 4001
D. Petavius.......1627.......... 3983
Frank Klassen... 1975.......... 3975
Becke............................... 3974
Krentzeim..........................3971
W. Dolen........ 2003........... 3971
E. Reusnerus.......................3970
J. Claverius .......................3968
C. Longomontanus...1600......... 3966
P. Melanchthon.... 1550......... 3964
J. Haynlinus .......................3963
A. Salmeron ........1585.......... 3958
J. Scaliger.........1609........... 3949
M. Beroaldus........1575.......... 3927
A. Helwigius .......1630.......... 3836

If you follow the Septuagint text instead of the Masoretic text the date will be different. The Septuagint added a hundred years to all the pre-flood patriarchs -- Adam 230 years of age at birth of Seth, rather than 130 years -- etc.
Then you end up with over 5000 years before Christ.


I think the date Mountain Man (and the BCommentary) used is based on the Jewish Calendar --

Christ Jesus was born in what we, today, call 4 BC --- In the Jewish year 3758

No problem there. Do you think there's a problem with that and the first verse being a summary?

Interesting questions, but not sure why they're relevant. There's a lot more planets than around our sun uninhabitable. In fact, other than our earth, we know of none that are other than what inspiration has told us.

Tom had raised some questions which it sounds like you are hinting at: Why destructive things in the universe.

Consider a cell. Things are continually being torn down and built up. Recycled. And yet we consider that miraculous life happening. Why cannot the universe works that way on a larger scale?

Um... because the Genesis account was the last created? And because scripture tells us. Before God did anything in the Genesis account,
the earth was.
It was already in existence.

Maybe I wasn't clear on that. Considering that our life currently was "right" as God didn't wipe it out and reset it, then what you suggest, wasn't "right", and He wiped it out to attempt it again.

Yes, create the world. Or "earth". Depends upon what is meant. The definition given in Genesis? Terra firma? (covered under water). Or a definition of what our world means to life? Mars is nothing. Just a hunk of rock. But if God created life on it, would that not be creation of Mars? I wouldn't base your religion on an ambiguous definition of what creating our world means.

Not sure why it had to be "much larger". But other than that, I believe He did create the solar system containing earth prior to the Genesis creation.

Sounds like a great movie! But you're personifying spiritual warfare. Creating science fiction attributes onto angels.

Before you create something, it is without form and void.

Why assume the earth was there without the sun? Unnecessary speculation.

So a reset. A redo. Because He didn't get it right the first time? This time He did it "right" by being able to protect it unlike the first time?

I agree with that. But they're using the same reasoning you are. And they say since there was no sun, then the first thing created was light. It removed satan's darkness, satan's "without form and void". So therefore, the Sabbath begins at sunrise.

I prefer to go with, "And the evening and the morning were the first day." And many other places indicating the day begins and ends at sunset.


And your cellular mechanisms just engulfed another component....

Earlier you asked "Why could not verse 1 be considered a summary of the chapter?"
To me it goes back a lot further than what is presented in the rest of the first chapter.

In the beginning God created....
those words parallel John 1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God...All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The verses take us back into infinity to confirm all things had their origin in God.





Why ?
Because it makes the universe a scary, unreliable place. It's acting just like things here on earth, and I'm wondering why?
We take the cycles of life and death for granted.
The old decays, the new is born, it grows old, dies or is destroyed, new things replace it and so on and on.
We live in such a "throw away" society we can't even comprehend an existence where nothing dies.

EGW mentions that for Adam "every dying leaf...was a fresh reminder of his sin." AH 540. And in Early Writings page 18 she mentions that flowers picked in heaven will never fade.

So the example of life-death-life-death cycles in a world of sin really doesn't explain what God's perfect creation is like.

Yet, the universe is showing signs of acting according to the cycles of sin, not the standard of perfection.







Exactly my point.
And scripture says:

In Isaiah 45:18 we read:
God himself that formed the earth and made it; he has established it, he created it not "tohuw" (a wasteland).

"tohuw" means "without form" a "wasteland".
It's the very same word used in Genesis 1:2

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was "tohuw" and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

So God did NOT created the earth "tohuw" without form, yet in Genesis 1:2 we find the earth "tohuw" without form.



Still find your response here confusing.
God creates the planet, making it ready for further creation.
There is no "attempting" here, God knows what He is doing.
In the meantime, in heaven there is a big rebellion led by a very jealous high ranking angel, who thinks it is unfair that he isn't part of the creating team.

God allows satan to fully measure and demonstrate His power against God. A cosmic war breaks out!
Using high energy weapons they dislodge planets from their orbits. The planet Thaia was sent on a headlong collision with planet earth. The result was a tremendous crash, with pieces flying everywhere.

In recent years, researchers analyzed seven rocks brought to the Earth from the moon by the Apollo 12, 15 and 17 missions. The fact that oxygen in rocks on the Earth and our moon share chemical signatures was very telling -- the moon seems to be a piece broken off from planet earth.

After such a collision -- earth indeed would have been "tohuw". And that "tohuw" was not God's doing.


After causing damage in other parts of God's universe, fully revealing their intents and character, satan and his angels were restrained.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.







I thought I made it quite plain that this was NOT a subject of dogmatic certainty.

My religion is based upon Jesus Christ, and I know He created everything perfectly, and will again make a "new heaven" and a "new earth", totally remaking not only this planet, but also "remaking" the "heavens".

Just what happened back there is speculation -- but I do believe something happened.
The great controversy is far bigger than we like to think in our narrow finite minds.

So back to "what might have been"

Mars is not just a hunk of rock. It has some baffling things about it that suggests it was part of the "war".
Like Earth, Mars has a North and South Pole. But while Earth's polar ice caps consist solely of water ice, Mars' polar caps are a combination of water ice and carbon dioxide ice.

At present, conditions on Mars do not allow for liquid water, however, geologic evidence indicate their was water in the past --water includes enormous outflow channels carved by floods, ancient river valley networks, deltas, and lakebeds; and the detection of rocks and minerals on the surface that could only have formed in liquid water.

Mars is a riddle --
Was it part of the creation that was destroyed during the war?



But you agreed the planet was created BEFORE the creation week.
Isaiah 45:18 tells us God did NOT create without form and void.
Yet, there it was in Gen. 1:2 -- a shapeless mass, covered by water.


Those who don't believe any creation took place prior to the six days, assume the sun did not exist prior to the fourth day. So no, it's not "unnecessary speculation" for many believe such.
In fact -- my question challenges that assumption.



HMMMMM???? -- NO! God did it right the first time.

The Father in conference with his beloved Son, to determine the means by which, for the best good of the loyal angels, the assumed authority of Satan could be forever put down. The great God could at once have hurled this arch deceiver from heaven; but this was not his purpose. He would give the rebellious an equal chance to measure strength and might with his Son and his loyal angels. In this battle every angel would choose his own side, and his character and purposes would be manifested to all."{SR 17.1}

Before putting satan and his angels on a "leash" or in "bounds", greatly limiting their range of activity, God first allowed them to demonstrate and manifest their character and purposes to all.

They demonstrated it by destroying much of God's creation!

Your reasoning would say God still didn't get it right, because He still allows sin to demonstrate and manifest the ravishes of sin. His creation is still being destroyed by sin.

And yes -- a great "reset", if that's what you want to call it, is soon to come! And how we look forward to it!!!!
God will make a "new heaven" and a "new earth", and sin will be no more.

No, I doubt they are using the "same reasoning" as I am. I see no connection what-so-ever.

God creating "light" is not "sunrise".
The sun didn't "rise" and shine until the fourth day.
They are spiritualizing away "without form and void" when it is an actual condition of planet earth at the time. The light didn't change that.
The form took shape on the second day, not the first.

Also, anyone who wants to ignore a plain "thus says the Lord" as to when the Sabbath begins, can come up with anything.

From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. Lev. 23:32

That's plain enough!

Creation account makes it very plain that EVENING and then MORNING = a day, the seventh day would be no different.


Are we to ignore the beginnings of the Great Controversy, and close down our minds, because some little group has some false assumptions?

They say that earth was created in verse 1, satan messed it up, and then God created it again.

Do you agree or disagree with them on that reasoning?


(By the way, by you using Lev 23:32 plays right into their trap. It is not about the weekly Sabbath. We must not give reason for detractors to criticize us. Say, like the festival sabbath ending at sunset, our weekly Sabbath does also.)

Not just the earth was created in verse one -- but heaven and angels and a lot of things! I believe God created a perfect universe ages before the six day creation of this earth.

You even agreed with me -- that earth was already there before the six day creation.

You even seemed to imply the sun was already shining before the six day creation, but then why would God create the sun on day four?

The sun had gone out.

It all adds up to realizing there was a great cosmic war (not just a spiritual war) but a real, and violent war, that God allowed Satan to wage, in which he showed his true ambitions and character, and every angel had to choose to be on one side or the other.

Earth's creation was not finished in verse one --
but Earth was not void and formless either prior to the war -- as we read in Isaiah -- God did not create it without form and void.

It's creation was begun, but not completed prior to the war -- there weren't any people created yet.

Yes, I believe Satan messed up a lot of things that God has created --
INCLUDING THE SABBATH.

No, I don't agree with your opponents view. And I really don't care what they believe -- as their Sabbath hours are not biblical, and they've made something out of that war that isn't substantiated in scripture or prophecy.

But your contributions to this subject are frustrating --
It's like saying --
Don't talk about Jesus resurrection because so many people base their Sunday keeping believing Christ rose Sunday morning.

It's kind of like saying -- change the resurrection to Saturday night (yes, there are some people that do that) -- but that doesn't make it correct. We don't go ignoring things just because some group built a false doctrine from a limited part of it?

One thing that I find interesting in this --

Satan is the author of war and chaos
God is the perfect Creator of beauty and goodness

The Great Controversy begins with a great war. At that point Lucifer (Satan) still had access to whole universe. The angels were not "bound" or "restrained" by anything as all was harmony and the goodness of God filled every mind and heart in God's universe prior to sin.

When the evil seeds of sin started sprouting in Lucifers mind no one knew what sin was or what it was like.
Satan's strategy was telling the angels he would make things even better for them. The growing hatred that jealousy was breeding wasn't readily discerned by the angels.

God could have hurled Lucifer from heaven and bound him to an uninhabited planet somewhere. But that would not have answered the questions rising in the minds of countless angels.



War! And how the true character of Satan was manifested as he went like a cyclone destroying God's creative works! Of special hatred was this area of the universe, where God was planning to create "mankind".
In rage Satan tries to destroy it.

But Christ and His angels prevail. Satan and his angels are bound -- restrained and "put out into the deep" whatever that means.
But the demons, during Christ's time on earth, greatly feared the power of Christ, begging Him not to "torment them" before the time, and not to send them back out into the deep.

Also we read: "Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Notice those angels LEFT (they weren't kicked out) they left -- where did they go? They joined Lucifer in the great war to wreck havoc on God's creative works in the universe as well as on the earth. And now they are "chained".


It appears, looking at EGW's writings as well, that Satan and his angels were not allowed free reign to go anywhere, after the war, but on each inhabited planet they had access to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. As long as the inhabitants of that world refused it's fruit, satan could not have access to that planet.


Since Christ's death on the cross, the unfallen angels have no more doubts as to the character of satan. They saw him, and fought against him as he rampaged through God's creative works to destroy it. But when they saw satan killing Christ, the One Who gave him life, his character and intents were fully revealed.

There will be one more great show down!
After the millennium when the city of God with the saved descend to earth, Satan, along with the multitudes of resurrected unsaved will again arm up for war. They will have weapons which, without godly interference, would easily annihilate the city. And so, confidently they approach the city.
Once again it will be clearly manifested what their real intentions and characters are like.

The satanic hatred against God and His law, was fully manifested.

1. Prior to creation, in the cosmic war they demonstrated their hatred of God, before satan and his angels were bound and restrained. After the war there was still limited travel in the universe, as we see in the story of Job.

2. When Christ lived on earth -- satan and his followers, both human and fallen angels, literally killed Him.
After this, satan and his angels were quarantined to this earth, and even here their power is limited -- though it is being unleashed as mankind deny God Who alone can save them.


3. After the millennium, before all evil and evil doers are utterly destroyed, they are again allowed to manifest their true intent and character. And what do they do? WAR! They attempt to conquer the New Jerusalem and pull God off His throne!!!

We like to play down these events --
But there is nothing minor, or little about them.

Sins great purpose is to destroy God and all God stands for and does.


Back in creation

No wonder the angels rejoiced and shouted for joy when God created this earth!
The contrast was so great --
Satan rampaging in destructive fury through God's creation.
BUT God ---
He is far stronger and greater than Satan.
The beautiful finished work of creating this earth brought forth a shout of victory from the angels.

But what agony filled heaven -- when satan gained control of this world when Adam and Eve listened to him in that tree, and opened the flood gates of evil to fill this world.

The war between the angels continues as God sends His heavenly host of angels to restrain the full wrath of the fallen angels.


The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them. Psalm 34:7. {HP 98.1}




If the curtain could be rolled back, and each one could discern the constant activities of the heavenly family to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from Satan's seductive wiles, lest in their careless attitude they should be led astray through satanic strategy, they would lose a large degree of their self-confidence and self-assurance. They would see that the armies of heaven are in continual warfare with satanic agencies, to obtain victories in behalf of those who do not sense their danger, and who are passing on in unconscious indifference. {HP 98.2}




Angels are belting the world, refusing Satan his claims to supremacy, made because of the vast multitude of his adherents. We hear not the voices, we see not with the natural sight the work of these angels, but their hands are linked about the world, and with sleepless vigilance they are keeping the armies of Satan at bay till the sealing of God's people shall be accomplished. {HP 98.3}




The ministers of Jehovah, angels have skill and power and great strength, being commissioned to go forth from heaven to earth to minister to His people. They are given the work of keeping back the raging power of him who has come down like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. {HP 98.4}



When we surrender all we have and are to God, and are placed in trying and dangerous positions, coming in contact with Satan, we should remember that we shall have victory in meeting the enemy in the name and power of the Conqueror. Every angel would be commissioned to come to our rescue, when we thus depend upon Christ, rather than that we should be permitted to be overcome. But we need not expect to get the victory without suffering; for Jesus suffered in conquering for us. {HP 98.5}




The angels of God are communicating with and guarding His people, and are pressing back the powers of darkness that they shall not have any control over those who shall be heirs of salvation. Are we working in harmony with the angels? This is the line of communication the Lord has established with the children of men. {HP 98.6}

My Bible doesn't say he created the sun on day four. Read the verse, list the verse, tell me why I would say that.

Genesis 1:1 is a summary of all God's creative works prior to the six day creation. All God's creation is perfect!
Something happened between verse 1 and 2 that had brought "tohuw" (chaos-- destruction) for the earth was there but it was "tohuw" (without form and void).
During the six days of creation God made this earth the beautiful, perfect home of mankind.

To summarize --


You had written -- basically agreeing that the earth was already in existence before the six day creation, and implying the sun was there as well.






Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night:

God didn't have to create the sun since it was probably already there -- but He did have to give it LIGHT, He made it into a great light on day four, it didn't have any light on day one, it was dark. The first three days the only light was the presence of God's light -- but on the fourth day scripture tells us the sun once again became the great light to rule the day, and the lesser light (the moon) ruled the night.