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#136978 - 10/21/11 10:30 PM Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Rosangela]
Mountain Man Offline
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Correct - "we" (born-again believers) are not condemned while we are abiding in Jesus. Nevertheless, our sinful flesh continues to stand condemned in the sight of God due to its sinfulness.
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#136982 - 10/21/11 11:25 PM Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Mountain Man]
asygo Offline

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Just time for a quickie....

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus bore the sins of the world in His sinful flesh nature. God justly condemns sins and sinfulness. However, in the case of Jesus, He was born in a born-again state, meaning He was born with all the implanted "new" traits and attributes. He never sinned. Therefore, He was sinless.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Correct - "we" (born-again believers) are not condemned while we are abiding in Jesus. Nevertheless, our sinful flesh continues to stand condemned in the sight of God due to its sinfulness.

Is this how Jesus was? Did His flesh "stand condemned in the sight of God due to its sinfulness"?
_________________________
By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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#185010 - 08/27/17 08:34 AM Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Rick H]
Daryl Offline

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Quote:
Is this how Jesus was? Did His flesh "stand condemned in the sight of God due to its sinfulness"?

I know this was asked almost six years ago without a response from anybody.

What is the response/answer to that question?
_________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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#185014 - 08/27/17 02:39 PM Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Rick H]
Green Cochoa Offline

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Daryl,

I believe some here have misconceptions that lead to large theological errors. Mrs. White is clear. The flesh is not sinful.

Think about it. If our flesh were sinful, then until we are changed into our immortal bodies, we are all hopelessly sinful, and could never hope to reflect the character of Christ.

What Jesus had, in terms of our "sinful nature," was simply the sin-weakened human flesh affected by about 4000 years of sin. That's it. Nothing more. He never sinned by so much as a thought. The flesh, apart from a decision made in the mind, cannot sin of itself, and is not sinful--neither for Christ, nor for us.

Related note: At the time Jesus entered the Garden of Gethsemane, the sins of the world were placed upon Him--not His sins, but ours--just as the sacrificial lambs were innocently made victims of others' sins, sins symbolically placed upon them by laying hands on their heads before slitting their throats.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}


If not even our flesh can act contrary to the will of God, much less could Christ's, Who never sinned at all. If the flesh does not act contrary to God's will, why should it stand condemned in His sight? We are not condemned because we are human. We are condemned because we are sinners. Christ's humanity was not under God's condemnation. God said at Jesus' baptism, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." That doesn't sound like condemnation, does it?
_________________________
Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson
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#185015 - 08/27/17 03:13 PM Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Rick H]
APL Offline
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Registered: 01/31/11
Posts: 5465
Loc: Western, USA
Read Romans chapters 5 through 8, particularly 7. It is true, "the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God", and Christ taking on sinful flesh, never participated in its sin, His character was spotless. He kept the law in our sinful flesh.
_________________________
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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#185019 - 08/27/17 07:32 PM Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Rick H]
dedication Offline

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Quote:
The flesh is not sinful


Just a question --
If the flesh is not sinful why is it called sinful flesh?

The flesh contains the "carnal lusts" and "embraces the lower, corrupt nature" with its "animal propensities".
( those words are from the very quote given)

So yes the flesh is sinful.

Now it's true the flesh cannot do anything on its own, either against or according to the will of God. Just like a severed arm cannot lift anything, and a severed leg cannot walk, or a quadriplegic whose limbs of flesh have no nerves connecting them to the brain center can do nothing.
The "flesh" needs the brain to tell it what it should and should not do.

The problem however arises in the fact that the brain is also part of the "sinful flesh".
The brain can be divided into two major parts: the lower brain stem and the higher forebrain. The forebrain deals with decision making, emotions, conscious actions, and intelligence.

This part of the brain needs to be tuned in to God, totally, in order to bring into "subjection to the higher powers" the sinful flesh.

However, there is also the "lower brain stem" that takes care of things without consulting the "higher brain". It carries out many vital functions of the body for maintenance and survival such as breathing, heartbeat, and blood pressure, digestion, sleeping and waking, sneezing and swallowing. It is the body’s “autopilot.”

The problem is that "autopilot" tends to be the 'default' mind condition for a large percentage of our waking time as well. Habits learned are done WITHOUT THINKING. Natural emotions jump in before we even turn on the "higher levels" of the brain.

For example -- you drive along, your mind in "autopilot" you've driven it so often you make all the right turns without even thinking, suddenly someone cuts in front of you. You slam on your brakes and feel scared and indignant and start cursing under your breath about the rudeness and stupidity of the other driver. All of that was "auto-pilot" reaction, without actual making a deliberate choice of any kind.

Another example of "auto-pilot" -- you did make a choice to go shopping, hop into the car, and after driving for a while you find yourself at your work place -- "auto-pilot" took over and told your flesh which turns to take, (your usual travel route, but not the one you had intended to take that day!}

Thus it is with sin.
Auto pilot will tell your flesh to sin. And you will sin without even thinking!

To break the "auto pilot" of sinful behavior takes --
first of all --

1. Constant abiding in Christ -- to be tuned in to God, totally, in order to bring into "subjection to the higher powers" the sinful flesh.
2. Intentional thinking. It's so easy to lapse into "auto pilot" thinking, letting the mind wander into whatever information is already stored in your brain.
3. Filling the mind with truth, so when the mind does go into "auto pilot" it will find truth in your brain to mull over.
4. Building productive habits, so when you lapse into "auto pilot" you will do the good.
5. First and last -- constant abiding in Christ, pray without ceasing, depend upon Christ, reflect upon His life, -- that's where the real battle is! Stop focusing on self, and focus on Christ, He will write His laws in your heart and mind.
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#185020 - 08/27/17 07:48 PM Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: asygo]
dedication Offline

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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Richard
when overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

Though I have seen some evidence in support of this, I'm not ready to say that the desire to sin entirely disappears. Here are texts:
Quote:
"For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish." (Galatians 5:17)

From the cross to the crown there is earnest work to be done. There is wrestling with inbred sin; there is warfare against outward wrong. {RH, November 29, 1887 par. 12}


I agree with asygo.
Focusing on "when we overcome sin" is a dangerous thing.
I have been fully convinced that when our goal is "victory" we set ourselves up for defeat, because it is SELF-CENTERED.

Yes, -- we have sinful flesh and will have it till this corruptible shall put on incorruption. And that sinful flesh will continue to urge sinful behavior and emotions, sinful reactions, and sinful desires.
It's true, those desires may shift, the more flagrant sins will definitely loose their appeal and become abhorrent to us, as we draw closer to Christ, but the Holy Spirit is constantly finding new corners of uncleanliness in our lives and pushes us into cleaning them out.

There are not only the flagrant sins of transgression, there are so many sins of lacking love, patience, gentleness. There are so many sins of omission, and selfishness and pride. The work of sanctification is not something we ARRIVE at, it is an ongoing work ALL OUR LIVES.

Our job is to ABIDE IN CHRIST, always, walking with Him in obedience every day of our lives. As soon as we THINK we have the victory over sin, we start patting ourselves on the back and stop relying on Christ, and the devil will move in with a double whammy, and completely overthrow us.
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#185034 - 08/28/17 03:52 AM Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Daryl]
dedication Offline

Global Moderator
4000+ Member
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 4329
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Daryl
Quote:
Is this how Jesus was? Did His flesh "stand condemned in the sight of God due to its sinfulness"?

I know this was asked almost six years ago without a response from anybody.

What is the response/answer to that question?


People have argued that one for centuries.
Some think they have the answer, but how can know.

Christ took on the flesh that was fully human, with defects that 4000 years of sin had wrought upon the human race.
He faced temptation.

Yet, we are warned:

" Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}



Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called "that holy thing." It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain, a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be.--The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, pp. 1128, 1129. {7ABC 448.2}
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