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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: asygo] #136777
10/12/11 08:50 PM
10/12/11 08:50 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
He condemns our unholy clamorings, but not us? Sounds like my father when he says he wants to obey God, but his sinful nature causes him to sin. So when he is committing adultery, he is guiltless because it's his sinful nature doing it, not him. Even though he is sinning, he really wants to obey.

Arnold, just an explanation. When I said God does not condemn us for our sinful tendencies/traits, I meant before the age of accountability, or before we become conscious of them.

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Rosangela] #136799
10/13/11 07:56 PM
10/13/11 07:56 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
R,

I agree with what you said. We are not condemned for sins of ignorance, including our natural selfishness, because God has provided a solution - Christ's sacrifice. I don't have a problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is the idea that selfishness is acceptable to God as long as you can prevent your body from acting it out.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Rosangela] #136803
10/13/11 10:14 PM
10/13/11 10:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: How can we cultivate a sinful trait of character without realizing we are sinning?

R: It's easy. We begin to do that as babies.

Yes, I agree we begin sinning by default the moment we are capable of consciousness.

Quote:
M: Where does it say Jesus condemns us because we possess sinful flesh nature. I read where it says Jesus condemns the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature, but I haven't read where He condemns us because of it.

R: Jesus condemns our sinful nature, because it is in disharmony with His character and law, but He doesn't condemn us because of our nature. As I said, our sinful traits/tendencies are sins of ignorance until we become conscious of them.

Are you suggesting sinful flesh nature and sinful character are one and the same thing?

Quote:
M: Also, if the character we inherit from our parents requires the atoning blood of Jesus, will it condemn the unsaved in judgment?

R: No, I believe the blood of Jesus makes provision for the sins of ignorance of all human beings. Men will be condemned by the acts they did which they somehow knew were wrong.

Please name some inherited sinful traits of character adults cultivate (act out) without realizing they are sinning, sinful traits of character which are covered by the atoning blood of Jesus and will not, therefore, count against them in judgment.

Quote:
M: I agree one sinful trait renders the entire character sinful. However, I do not believe it is possible to possess a sinless character save one sinful trait (and vice versa). Do you agree?

R: Yes, if I understood correctly what you said.

I mean character cannot consist of sinful and sinless traits. It is either altogether sinful or altogether sinless.

Quote:
M: Also, is the "many" inherited "lovely traits" Ellen mentioned above the same as sinless traits of character?

R: I suppose so.

Wouldn't that imply babies are born with sinful and sinless traits of character?

Quote:
M: I cannot help thinking the differences between traits and character, as Ellen employed them, is important. I agree with you we are born with the traits and tools necessary to cultivate character, the kind of character that matters in judgment; however, I do not believe we are born with this kind of character (as opposed to the kind of character you say doesn't matter in judgment). Do you agree?

R: I don't believe we will be condemned by the character we inherit at birth. Is this what you are asking?

Sort of. I understand you believe the sinful character we inherit and act out from birth will not count against us in judgment (if we are ignorant of wrongdoing) because the blood of Jesus covers all such sins. As you say, only the sinful character we ourselves cultivate (knowing full well we are guilty of wrongdoing) will condemn us in judgment.

I agree the blood of Jesus covers sins of ignorance. And, I agree nothing we inherit will condemn us in judgment; however, I do not believe it's because the blood of Jesus covers our hereditary sinfulness (a state of being as opposed to a state of doing). I do not believe the blood of Jesus must cover our sinful flesh nature or else we would stand guilty and condemned in the sight of God because of it. It is not a sin to possess sinful flesh nature. Possessing it does not cause corruption or contamination or condemnation. The only thing that requires the covering blood of Jesus is the sins we ourselves commit and repent of.

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: asygo] #136804
10/13/11 10:43 PM
10/13/11 10:43 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Where does it say Jesus condemns us because we possess sinful flesh nature.

A: God does not condemn the "sinful" body. He condemns the "sinful" mind. The flesh is amoral, merely the tool to act out our passions and desires. But the unholy passions and desires get us in trouble.

I agree sinful mind and sinful flesh are two different aspects of human nature. But, where in the Bible or the SOP does it imply the "flesh is amoral"? Ellen wrote:

Quote:
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

She says sinful flesh tempts us from within by producing unholy lusts (desires) and affections, corrupt thoughts, and animal propensities, which, by the grace of God, we must resist or rein in unto the honor and glory of God. She doesn't make it sound like the flesh is amoral. It sounds like the flesh generates unholy thoughts and feelings actively warring against us tempting us from within to express our innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways.

Quote:
M: I read where it says Jesus condemns the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature, but I haven't read where He condemns us because of it.

A: He condemns our unholy clamorings, but not us? Sounds like my father when he says he wants to obey God, but his sinful nature causes him to sin. So when he is committing adultery, he is guiltless because it's his sinful nature doing it, not him. Even though he is sinning, he really wants to obey.

Elsewhere you commented:

Quote:
We are not condemned for sins of ignorance, including our natural selfishness, because God has provided a solution - Christ's sacrifice. I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is the idea that selfishness is acceptable to God as long as you can prevent your body from acting it out.

It sounds like we're talking past each other. The clamorings of sinful flesh constitute temptations - not sinning. In the AH 127 passage I posted above she makes it clear the flesh cannot commit a sin, that it can only tempt us to sin. Being tempted from within in this way does not count as a sin; nor does it cause corruption or contamination or condemnation.

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Mountain Man] #136897
10/17/11 04:33 PM
10/17/11 04:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Bump for Rosangela and Arnold.

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Mountain Man] #136905
10/17/11 11:54 PM
10/17/11 11:54 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
M: Where does it say Jesus condemns us because we possess sinful flesh nature. I read where it says Jesus condemns the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature, but I haven't read where He condemns us because of it.

R: Jesus condemns our sinful nature, because it is in disharmony with His character and law, but He doesn't condemn us because of our nature. As I said, our sinful traits/tendencies are sins of ignorance until we become conscious of them.

M: Are you suggesting sinful flesh nature and sinful character are one and the same thing?

Mike, there's no "sinful flesh nature," there's sinful nature. EGW uses the terms "character" and "nature" synonymously. Thus, being a partaker of the divine nature can only mean being a partaker of the divine character. A transformation of nature can only mean a transformation of character:

"Christ says: Open the door of your heart; give Me entrance, and I will make you a child of God. I will transform your weak, sinful nature into the divine image, giving it beauty and perfection." {TMK 106.3}

Quote:
Please name some inherited sinful traits of character adults cultivate (act out) without realizing they are sinning, sinful traits of character which are covered by the atoning blood of Jesus and will not, therefore, count against them in judgment.

I think it's possible sometimes to manifest selfishness without realizing it - at least not at the moment.

"At another time during their early evangelistic labors, James and John met one who, while not an acknowledged follower of Christ, was casting out devils in His name. The disciples forbade the man to work and thought they were right in doing this. But when they laid the matter before Christ, He reproved them... The disciples must not indulge a narrow, exclusive spirit... James and John had thought that in checking this man they had in view the Lord's honor; but they began to see that they were jealous for their own. They acknowledged their error and accepted the reproof." {AA 543.3}

Quote:
I mean character cannot consist of sinful and sinless traits. It is either altogether sinful or altogether sinless.

I'm not sure about that. I think good traits are good, and bad traits are bad. I think bad traits are sinful traits. But, in the same way some drops of poison contaminate a whole jar of juice, some sinful traits make the whole character sinful.

Quote:
however, I do not believe it's because the blood of Jesus covers our hereditary sinfulness (a state of being as opposed to a state of doing). I do not believe the blood of Jesus must cover our sinful flesh nature or else we would stand guilty and condemned in the sight of God because of it.

What do you think this means?

"Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God." {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7}

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Rosangela] #136930
10/18/11 04:04 PM
10/18/11 04:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: rosangela
M: . . . however, I do not believe it's because the blood of Jesus covers our hereditary sinfulness (a state of being as opposed to a state of doing). I do not believe the blood of Jesus must cover our sinful flesh nature or else we would stand guilty and condemned in the sight of God because of it.

R: What do you think this means? "Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God." {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7}

Yes, anything and everything sinful is justly condemned by God. But in Christ we are justly declared sinless. However, the sinful flesh aspect of human nature (a.k.a sinful flesh nature) continues to be sinful and condemned.

Regarding the rest of your post, I agree it is the character we ourselves cultivate (not anything we inherit at birth) that will determine our eternal destiny during judgment.

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Mountain Man] #136932
10/18/11 05:27 PM
10/18/11 05:27 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
I'm not sure I understood your position. If our sinful nature is condemned by God and we can only be declared sinless because of Christ, how did things work in Christ's case? Was His sinful nature condemned?

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Rosangela] #136943
10/19/11 03:34 PM
10/19/11 03:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Jesus bore the sins of the world in His sinful flesh nature. God justly condemns sins and sinfulness. However, in the case of Jesus, He was born in a born-again state, meaning He was born with all the implanted "new" traits and attributes. He never sinned. Therefore, He was sinless. His inherited baggage was sinful and condemned, but the character He Himself cultivated was sinless and uncondemned. It's the same thing as you saying the inherited character we are born with does not condemn us in the sight of God. The reason God "declares" us sinless is due to the fact He must pardon past sins and in its place apply the benefits of Jesus' blood and righteousness. Nevertheless, we are also, here and now, in reality "righteous even as he is righteous."

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Mountain Man] #136947
10/19/11 09:38 PM
10/19/11 09:38 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
God justly condemns sins and sinfulness. However, in the case of Jesus, He was born in a born-again state, meaning He was born with all the implanted "new" traits and attributes.

In that case, we wouldn't be condemned because we are born again?

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