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Re: Protestants renounce Protestantism [Re: The Wanderer] #184209
06/23/17 07:28 PM
06/23/17 07:28 PM
N
Nadi  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2020
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
I would be interested to hear from you a brief summary, with a scripture reference or two, what your understanding of 'the judgment" is?


I sent you a PM


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: Protestants renounce Protestantism [Re: Nadi] #184235
06/26/17 02:49 AM
06/26/17 02:49 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: Nadi
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
So, I would recommend starting with the earthly sanctuary first. Understand its structure and function first. Then, and only then, move onto what the earthly sanctuary was patterned after. Which is the Heavenly Sanctuary. Then, we can move onto the prophetic significance.

You may begin any time.


What an attitude!

Maybe you would like to explain your beliefs on this subject as well! Show Scriptural support for what you understand to be the truth of this matter. That never comes from evangelicals!

So, I don't have inclination to be treated this way and will not go through the exercise.

I will reference though Hebrews 9:1-12 as a quick introduction to both the earthly sanctuary and its relation to the Heavenly Sanctuary.

Verses 1-10 clearly cover in brief the structure and function of the earthly sanctuary. Why? Because the earthly sanctuary is still the pattern that is to be followed. And who follows that pattern? God Himself!

This is an extremely important point to make. It doesn't ever matter how many churches understand this. They may all be wrong on this point. But, God isn't.

Re: Protestants renounce Protestantism [Re: Alchemy] #184236
06/26/17 03:39 AM
06/26/17 03:39 AM
T
The Wanderer  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: Alchemy

This is an extremely important point to make. It doesn't ever matter how many churches understand this. They may all be wrong on this point. But, God isn't.
THE extremely important point to make in all of that is Jesus! Did you somehow miss Him?


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: Protestants renounce Protestantism [Re: Alchemy] #184237
06/26/17 04:24 AM
06/26/17 04:24 AM
N
Nadi  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2020
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
What an attitude!

Well, Thank You!! blush
You're too kind!


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: Protestants renounce Protestantism [Re: dedication] #184253
06/27/17 02:21 AM
06/27/17 02:21 AM
dedication  Offline OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
How did the IJ get into the thread on Protestants renouncing Protestantism and going back to Rome?

Ahh -- it does have a connection.

Could it be that by rejecting the full sanctuary message they have failed to break with Rome?

Instead of placing all their trust in the heavenly High Priest, to forgive, justify, sanctify and judge, are they open to go back to the usurper in these matters?
-- the confessional, the indulgences, the penance, and the inquisition to judge the faith of the congregation?



Other connecting links that are pulling Protestants back to Rome are:

1. The state of the dead --

If everyone goes to hell or heaven (or some also teach of a purgatory) at death, it makes the sanctuary doctrine rather unnecessary as judgment is executed at death.

It also opens them up to the whole "saint" praying idea. Another usurpation of Christ's ministry as our only mediator.
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Finally it opens them up to spiritualism.

2. The Sabbath

Only a few Protestants moved away from Rome on that point. Most worship on the day the church sanctioned, not the day God sanctified and made holy.
Again the rejection of the IJ plays a role -- as the Adventists studied the meaning of the "day of atonement" it was seeing (reading) that the law of the covenant, the ten commandments, are in the ark of the covenant (See Ex. 34:28 and Rev. 11;17) which is in the Most Holy (See Deut. 4:13 Hebrews 9:4, and Rev. 11:17) during the seventh trumpet, which was the convincing point that ALL God's ten commandments are at the base of God's throne, the standard of His judgment!

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill (as well as Remember the Sabbath day). Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, (or if you fail to remember to keep holy God's seventh day) thou art become a transgressor of the law.
2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

If you love me, Christ said, you will joyously obey, delighting to do His will. (See John 14:15 and Ps. 40:8)

God's people will honor their Creator, even if all the world follows the beast and his image in trampling upon God's law.

Re: Protestants renounce Protestantism [Re: dedication] #184274
06/29/17 12:43 PM
06/29/17 12:43 PM
A
Alchemy  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Personally, I do believe the rejection of the IJ from the evangelical world has caused them to lose their way in Biblical prophecies.

Almost all those Protestant churches believed in the Papacy being the anti-Christ up to the 20th century. But, not any more. They continually grow closer to Rome year by year.

Re: Protestants renounce Protestantism [Re: The Wanderer] #184275
06/29/17 12:46 PM
06/29/17 12:46 PM
A
Alchemy  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: Alchemy

This is an extremely important point to make. It doesn't ever matter how many churches understand this. They may all be wrong on this point. But, God isn't.
THE extremely important point to make in all of that is Jesus! Did you somehow miss Him?


That was a terribly verbally inspired post Wanderer. How did you miss Jesus in my post. I didn't miss Him.

Re: Protestants renounce Protestantism [Re: Alchemy] #184278
06/29/17 09:31 PM
06/29/17 09:31 PM
T
The Wanderer  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: Alchemy


That was a terribly verbally inspired post Wanderer. How did you miss Jesus in my post. I didn't miss Him.
"Terribly???"


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: Protestants renounce Protestantism [Re: Alchemy] #184280
06/30/17 02:15 AM
06/30/17 02:15 AM
dedication  Offline OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Personally, I do believe the rejection of the IJ from the evangelical world has caused them to lose their way in Biblical prophecies.

Almost all those Protestant churches believed in the Papacy being the anti-Christ up to the 20th century. But, not any more. They continually grow closer to Rome year by year.


Yes, Protestants held the historicist method of prophetic interpretation in the 1800's, they also held to the protest against the papal anti-Christ.
And yes, that has all changed.

As I think about WHY it changed, it becomes clearer that rejecting the sanctuary doctrine played a key role in this.
Let me share a little fuller:

During the Reformation it was God leading people out of Rome. God used men like Luther to break through the spiritual darkness and discover the light of salvation in Christ!

When the reformers died there was a lull in which Satan worked hard to try to destroy Protestantism, but God was also working to prepare a people.

The great religious awakening in the early 1800's amongst Protestants brought about Bible Societies and evangelistic movements with large numbers joining the protestant churches. God was working -- preparing the world for something.

Interest in the prophecies blossomed.
The Protestants at this time interpreted prophecy by the "historicist" method. That is -- they viewed the prophecies as covering time from the prophet's time to the end. (Which is still the official SDA method) Protestant Bible students used the day for a year principle. In other words -- the method used by Seventh-day Adventists to interpret prophecy was used by all the protestants back then.

This historicist method of interpretation points the finger at Papal Rome as the subversive power ruling the western world during the 1260 years. It points the finger at the papacy as the antichrist.
I'm sure you've heard all this in much greater clarity on Walter Veith's talks.

The historicist method also pointed to 1844 as the time the "sanctuary will be cleansed". Miller was not the only one who noticed this. The historicist method even outlines the rise of the Advent movement in Rev. 10, as those who "eat" the prophetic book, ingest the prophecies which are sweet in the mouth but are bitter in the stomach.

Things came to a huge climax in 1844.

" Had Adventists, (that is the whole group that believed Miller's message) after the great disappointment in 1844, held fast their faith and followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God, receiving the message of the third angel and in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world, they would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this."

Had all those people stepped out on the platform of truth concerning the sanctuary, they would have understood the three angel's messages and pointed out the work of salvation for the last days to the rest of the world.

But most wanted nothing to do with it. They turned their backs. They would not move forward, but went backward.

Next they rejected the historicist method of interpreting scripture and in its place accepting futuristic or preterist interpretations, abandoning the historicist position almost completely including the day for year principle.
Even the Baptists who were once very strong in upholding the protestant prophetic method of interpretation have largely abandoned it.

These methods of interpretation were first pushed by Jesuits as both methods totally ignore what prophecy says concerning the papacy. Preterism and futurism are anti-Reformation- anti=Protestant inventions. These were later taken up by Protestants, and changed somewhat, but never-the-less destroyed the confidence of most of the Christian world in the historicist method.

Now they have only Epiphanies and some future dictator as their prophetic anti-christs -- the prophetic books, especially the book of Daniel is christless in their view.

By dissolving (in their minds at least) all the Biblical backing that identify the antichrist people have no more foundation to understand the three angel's message to "come out of her".
Thus we see a big diversity of thought on what that message could mean --
Now the cry is "unity" -- with the papacy -- and point to John 17, and the call is "let's all join" together, forgetting and forgotten is the old Protestant prophetic picture.

Re: Protestants renounce Protestantism [Re: dedication] #184307
07/02/17 02:59 AM
07/02/17 02:59 AM
dedication  Offline OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
What does it mean when the Protestant world renounces the protest, and say that Protestantism is over?
What does it mean to renounce the protest against the Roman Catholic system?
Most think it's just a kindly act of Christian togetherness, but they have neglected the warnings, for it means more than most realize. The Protestant world in their overtures to Rome will wake up when it is too late and they reap the startling and dreadful consequences of renouncing their protest.

Protestants have not only thrown out the historicist prophetic interpretations that clearly pointed to the papacy as the little horn and the "harlot" of these prophecies, they have also neglected to study their history and all the "infallible" documents containing the policies of Papal Rome.

The word "Protestants" actually arose to promenice from the the Princes' Protest.
The Pope and the Emperor were demanding submission to church/state authority and approved beliefs. The princes stood firmly against the demand, arguing that they could not comply to human demands that required them to deny their Savior and go against conscience. The protest was contending for religious liberty.

It was this protestant principle which underlies the freedoms upon which the United States was built. It’s Constitution guaranteed freedom of conscience, as declared in the first amendment, and guarded by the fourteenth amendment.

George Washington in 1789, in a letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, wrote:

“If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”

So what does the end of Protestantism mean?

It means the end of liberty of conscience, of individual accountability to the claims of God. It justifies the Papal
claims of spiritual authority, and condemns Luther and the protestant princes.

Rome hasn't changed -- but Protestantism has -- it is they that are losing their protest.

Quote:
And let it be remembered, it is the boast of Rome that she never changes. The principles of Gregory VII and Innocent III are still the principles of the Roman Catholic Church. And had she but the power, she would put them in practice with as much vigor now as in past centuries. Protestants little know what they are doing when they propose to accept the aid of Rome in the work of Sunday exaltation. While they are bent upon the accomplishment of their purpose, Rome is aiming to re-establish her power, to recover her lost supremacy. Let the principle once be established in the United States that the church may employ or control the power of the state; that religious observances may be enforced by secular laws; in short, that the authority of church and state is to dominate the conscience, and the triumph of Rome in this country is assured. {GC 581.1}
God's word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. She is silently growing into power. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men. She is piling up her lofty and massive structures in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be repeated. Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike. All that she desires is vantage ground, and this is already being given her. We shall soon see and shall feel what the purpose of the Roman element is. Whoever shall believe and obey the word of God will thereby incur reproach and persecution. {GC 581.2}

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