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#185263 - 10/06/17 11:34 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Karen Y Offline
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Registered: 02/16/14
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Loc: Michigan, US
The seventh trumpet is announcing that "this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11:15). This announced event has not come to a fulfillment yet but would be fulfilled at the time of Jesus' Second coming.

The Day of the Lord is "woe" upon the impenitents. This is what the seven trumpet is announcing about.

Quote:
Dedication "We are living in the time of the seventh trumpet.

They are not just announcements each one describes what happens in symbolic language."


If we are living in the time of the seventh trumpet, what events are we to look out for, considering the above comment by Dedication? What is the symbolic language of the third woe?

Quote:
Dedication-"Yes, they are judgments falling upon the world. "Woe" means great sorrow or distress, trouble."


Does the first and second woes speak about a judgment fall upon the world in a worldwide scale? Remember how the threefold woe is announced: the angel flying in the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe" to the inhabiters of the earth (Rev. 8:13).

If the events of first and second woe happened in a historical time of the past, what events are we also to look for in the third woe? We are seeing "great sorrow or distress, trouble" these days, but it is not what the seven trumpet is talking about. The seventh trumpet announces "this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ".


Quote:
Dedication-"Six trumpets have sounded. We are living in the last trumpet when Christ is still in the Most Holy Place -- all that is holding back the last scenes are those four angels pushing back the winds of strife till all God's people are sealed.
When they release, probation closes."


I believe that the seventh trumpet is sounding while Christ is ministering in the heavenly sanctuary. However, the third woe is indicating about the things happening on the earth:"Woe, woe, woe" to the inhabiters of the earth (Rev. 8:13).

I believe that the sixth trumpet is sounding right now as well, because the second woe (sixth trumpet) is also announcement upon the inhabitant of the earth. What of the woe? The voice from the temple is the woe upon the earth because it is God's voice of the command to release the four angels to loose their hold of the four corners of the earth (Rev. 7:1-3). At His command, there is no more of Jesus' intercession available and probationary time ends forever.

In the sixth trumpet, we see that the 200 million horsemen are slaying the one-third of men on Earth (Rev. 9:15-16). Their weapons are fire, smoke, and brimstone to kill the wicked. The rest of men "which were not killed by these plagues" (Rev. 9:20) are the most wicked that are remained upon the Earth. We have to find who would be receiving those three plagues. I discovered the three entities in the sixth plague: dragon, beast, false prophet. The dragon will be punished by the fire; the beast will be punished by the smoke; and the false prophet will be punished by the brimstone.

We must warn the world to repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand and the probationary time is short.
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#185267 - 10/08/17 01:36 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
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Originally Posted By: Karen Y
The seventh trumpet is announcing that "this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11:15). This announced event has not come to a fulfillment yet but would be fulfilled at the time of Jesus' Second coming.

The Day of the Lord is "woe" upon the impenitents. This is what the seven trumpet is announcing about.

Quote:
Dedication "We are living in the time of the seventh trumpet.

They are not just announcements each one describes what happens in symbolic language."


If we are living in the time of the seventh trumpet, what events are we to look out for, considering the above comment by Dedication? What is the symbolic language of the third woe?


Originally Posted By: Karen
I believe that the seventh trumpet is sounding while Christ is ministering in the heavenly sanctuary. However, the third woe is indicating about the things happening on the earth:"Woe, woe, woe" to the inhabiters of the earth (Rev. 8:13).


I'm a little confused as to your position above.
The first quote seems to be disagreeing with me, and putting the seventh trumpet in the future, while the second quote seems to agree with me that we are living in the seventh trumpet.

What events are predicted in the seventh trumpet?


The seventh trumpet covers time from 1844 to the time when Christ reigns.




11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This is speaking of a process. -- Notice "He shall reign" projects the reign into the future.

Now turn to Daniel 7 where the heavenly court is being set up.
What happens there?
See verses 13 and 14 where Daniel saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Heavenly clouds symbolize a cloud of angels. Thus angels accompany Jesus as He appears before the Ancient of Days (God the Father) seated upon the throne in the heavenly court.
7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The first verdict of the heavenly court is that Christ is the rightful owner of this world, and to Him is given dominion, glory and a kingdom.

This is not the second coming -- Christ did not come to earth to receive this title. He appears before the Ancient of Days, as "the Son of Man" -- that is He appears as the representative of the human race to obtain the title and then as our elder brother, shares the inheritance with all Who came to Him for salvation.

EGW writes of this scene:
" I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, ... He raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garments spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself." Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. Early Writings page 55


11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


In heaven the end result is assured.
But some things must yet happen upon earth before Christ actually comes to receive His people.

11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

There is a lot of information packed into that verse.

Thy wrath is come--
What is it that brings the "wrath"?

Rev. 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,

First Babylon (apostate Religion led by papacy) will force the nations to submit to their worship mandates (includes Sunday laws among other things).
God, in turn speaks of "His wrath" -- those who worship the beast and his image will suffer the plagues, there will be no more mercy.

So the woe? First the oppression caused by apostate religion using the civil powers to enforce their worship upon the nations, and then they themselves will suffer the plagues.

The first two woes are part of the 1260 years of papal primacy. The last woe is greater, as it covers the revival of the papal primacy coupled with a very powerful nation making an image in the likeness of the papacy.
We are seeing those forces building up over the last few decades, the unleashing of their power is not far future.

Nations are angry
Angry nations do not bring peace, even if they make peace agreements and promises. Since 1844 the world has seen some of the most destructive wars in recorded history. Wars on a global scale, with terrible weaponry. We are only a few button pushes of colossal destruction if "angry" uncontrolled hands get access to those buttons.

them which destroy the earth.
Our throw away society is not only wasting earth's resources but filling the earth with garbage.
Farming, crop growing industries have changed from natural methods to using loads of chemicals and genetic modifications of plants that is not only poisoning the earth, killing birds and insects, and causing disease upon the inhabitants of earth, but also violating God's creation of seeds and harvest cycles.
The altering of plants and seeds as it's being done in the last few years is playing a dangerous game. If plants don't produce seeds, what happens if the seeds of the distributors get contaminated and no longer produce plants that have seeds?

In the last hundred or so years the "destruction of the earth" by the mismanagement of people, has reached levels never before seen in recorded history.

Disease is increasing, in spite of modern medicine. Nearly everyone now either gets cancer or has a someone in their family with cancer. Just about everything one uses and eats now (unless you grow everything and don't use commercial cleaners, furniture, building supplies, etc. etc.) has cancer causing elements.

Indeed -- they that destroy the earth --


11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:

The judgment message is to be proclaimed.
The three angel's message is based on the Most Holy Place last phase of Christ's ministry, and the commandments of God are in that ark of His covenant.


and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
The last plague -- after which is the second coming.
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#185268 - 10/08/17 02:26 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
dedication Online   content

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Registered: 04/25/04
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Originally Posted By: Karen Y

I believe that the sixth trumpet is sounding right now as well, because the second woe (sixth trumpet) is also announcement upon the inhabitant of the earth. What of the woe? The voice from the temple is the woe upon the earth because it is God's voice of the command to release the four angels to loose their hold of the four corners of the earth (Rev. 7:1-3). At His command, there is no more of Jesus' intercession available and probationary time ends forever.


The sixth trumpet could be an example of Rev. 7:1 but it is not the same as Rev. 7:1.

In Revelation 7:1 there are four angels holding back the winds that are about to be unleashed upon the whole world.
Indeed they will "let go" of those winds during the seventh trumpet.


In the sixth trumpet there are four angels but these angels are not holding back trouble they are bound (as in chained or imprisoned) in the great river Euphrates. The sixth trumpet angel is told to "unchain" or "loose" them, and these four "angels" go out and destroy 1/3 of mankind.

I don't think those four are God's angels, the language seems to refer more to Satan's "angels".
We know from the book of Jude that many of those rebellious angels are bound in chains.

Also the sixth trumpet is a localized event. It affects 1/3, not the whole earth. There is still a call for repentance.



Originally Posted By: Karen
In the sixth trumpet, we see that the 200 million horsemen are slaying the one-third of men on Earth (Rev. 9:15-16). Their weapons are fire, smoke, and brimstone to kill the wicked. The rest of men "which were not killed by these plagues" (Rev. 9:20) are the most wicked that are remained upon the Earth. We have to find who would be receiving those three plagues. I discovered the three entities in the sixth plague: dragon, beast, false prophet. The dragon will be punished by the fire; the beast will be punished by the smoke; and the false prophet will be punished by the brimstone.


Where do you find the dragon, beast and false prophet being punished in the sixth trumpet?

It sounds more like the dragon and his angels were being released from the restraints God has placed upon them, and they show their destructive nature upon those whom God has not specially protected.

Of course the counterfeit religion is reaping what it has sown in the sixth trumpet. So I would agree that the "beast' is being punished.

But I do NOT think those that remain are "the most wicked", as the passage seems to indicate that there was hope that they WOULD repent and turn from their idols. The sad lament is that most do not.



The fire, smoke and brimstone indicates new weaponry of war that came into use at the time, which was not in use in John's day. It is the armies of horsemen, going out to destroy 1/3 of mankind who were using the fire, smoke and brimstone, and shooting it out, while riding on their horses.
Fire, smoke and brimstone raining down on people is a terrifying but real depiction of war ever since guns and bomsb were invented.
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#185291 - 10/14/17 12:02 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
Karen Y Offline
SDA
Active Member 2016

Full Member
Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 274
Loc: Michigan, US
In Rev. 8:3-5, Jesus attends before the altar and performs the work of atonement as our Intercessor and ends at the casting of the fire. The Seven Trumpets are not intended to chronicle Earth’s history, neither are they a recapitulation of the period of the Christian era. Rather they are for the last days of the sevenfold warning of the imminent close of probation.

The introduction of the Seven Trumpets is for repentance and renewal of our relationship with God in view of the final judgment that is about to fall on the Earth. It is dangerous to stand without an Intercessor if our sins are not blotted out before the close of probation. This is what the introductory scene conveys.

The Seven Trumpets correlate with the backdrop of Jesus’ ministry. When He “stood at the altar,” this indicates He is interceding as the High Priest having the golden censer. In the Old Testament, the high priest applied the blood on the horns of the golden altar on the Day of Atonement (see Exod. 30:10, Lev. 16:18). So when we see the four horns of the golden altar in Rev. 9:13, we know it is the ministry of Jesus on the Anti-Typical Day of Atonement. The voice coming from the four horns indicates that the atonement is made and accepted by God.

The golden censer, which was kept next to the golden altar when not in use, was taken by the high priest just once a year, on the Day of Atonement, and carried into the inner veil. In referring to Aaron as the high priest, Moses describes: “and he shall take a censer (golden censer) full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the Lord, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the veil” (Lev. 16:12).

Jesus is given “much incense,” which represents His sweet incense mixed with all the prayers that are given to Him (see Lev. 16:12-13, Exod. 30:34-38). He ministers with the accumulated prayers to cleanse the sanctuary (1 John 1:7, Dan. 8:14). The “sweet incense” in Lev. 16:12 signifies of Jesus’ perfect righteousness, which must be mixed with the saints’ prayers, indicating this occasion is the Anti-Typical Day of Atonement.

Jesus, the Angel, took the censer, filled it with the fire of the altar, and cast it into the Earth. Voices, thunder, lightning and earthquake accompany the end of probation. Rev. 11:19 is the seventh trumpet: the temple was opened and the same activity of voices and lightning and so on was disclosed. So we see that the introductory backdrop and the seventh trumpet both depict the close of probation. The phenomena are a showcase of God’s threat that if people disobey His law and reject His mercy, they will suffer in the divine warfare.

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Karen Y
The seventh trumpet is announcing that "this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11:15). This announced event has not come to a fulfillment yet but would be fulfilled at the time of Jesus' Second coming.

The Day of the Lord is "woe" upon the impenitents. This is what the seven trumpet is announcing about.

Quote:
Dedication "We are living in the time of the seventh trumpet.

They are not just announcements each one describes what happens in symbolic language."


If we are living in the time of the seventh trumpet, what events are we to look out for, considering the above comment by Dedication? What is the symbolic language of the third woe?


Originally Posted By: Karen
I believe that the seventh trumpet is sounding while Christ is ministering in the heavenly sanctuary. However, the third woe is indicating about the things happening on the earth:"Woe, woe, woe" to the inhabiters of the earth (Rev. 8:13).


I'm a little confused as to your position above.
The first quote seems to be disagreeing with me, and putting the seventh trumpet in the future, while the second quote seems to agree with me that we are living in the seventh trumpet.

What events are predicted in the seventh trumpet?


The seventh trumpet covers time from 1844 to the time when Christ reigns.




11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This is speaking of a process. -- Notice "He shall reign" projects the reign into the future.

Now turn to Daniel 7 where the heavenly court is being set up.
What happens there?
See verses 13 and 14 where Daniel saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Heavenly clouds symbolize a cloud of angels. Thus angels accompany Jesus as He appears before the Ancient of Days (God the Father) seated upon the throne in the heavenly court.
7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The first verdict of the heavenly court is that Christ is the rightful owner of this world, and to Him is given dominion, glory and a kingdom.

This is not the second coming -- Christ did not come to earth to receive this title. He appears before the Ancient of Days, as "the Son of Man" -- that is He appears as the representative of the human race to obtain the title and then as our elder brother, shares the inheritance with all Who came to Him for salvation.


Sorry for the confusion, I meant to say that the third woe is about the things that will happen on the earth. It is Woe to the inhabitants of the Earth that the angel announced in Rev. 8:13. The first two woes also indicated in the announcement that the woes are coming upon the inhabitants of the earth.

It does not make sense to me when the interpretation of the two woes have to be historical events on Earth and the third woe is an event happening in heaven, such as investigative judgment as you have mentioned, although I believe IJ is in progress in the heaven above. The threefold warning is to inhabitants of the Earth that they are going to be severely impacted in the crises.

Quote:
So the woe? First the oppression caused by apostate religion using the civil powers to enforce their worship upon the nations, and then they themselves will suffer the plagues.

The first two woes are part of the 1260 years of papal primacy. The last woe is greater, as it covers the revival of the papal primacy coupled with a very powerful nation making an image in the likeness of the papacy.
We are seeing those forces building up over the last few decades, the unleashing of their power is not far future.

Nations are angry
Angry nations do not bring peace, even if they make peace agreements and promises. Since 1844 the world has seen some of the most destructive wars in recorded history. Wars on a global scale, with terrible weaponry. We are only a few button pushes of colossal destruction if "angry" uncontrolled hands get access to those buttons.


Although I agree that papal primacy is ever growing strong to control the world and destructive wars are occurring, what I read in the third woe is the announcement of the arrival the kingdom of Christ. This is the woe to the wicked. It is not describing the IJ or the activities of the beast.
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#185298 - 10/14/17 11:55 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
dedication Online   content

Global Moderator
4000+ Member
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 4239
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Karen Y
In Rev. 8:3-5, Jesus attends before the altar and performs the work of atonement as our Intercessor and ends at the casting of the fire. The Seven Trumpets are not intended to chronicle Earth’s history, neither are they a recapitulation of the period of the Christian era. Rather they are for the last days of the sevenfold warning of the imminent close of probation.

Jesus attends before the altar of incense, offering up the prayers of the saints, all through the Christian era. That ministry has two phases, both of which appear in the passage, as I pointed out previously. If this were primarily of Christ in the Most Holy Place, I'm sure the prophet would have SEEN Christ in the Most Holy Place, but no, Christ is pictured as offering up the prayers of the saints before the altar of incense which is in the Holy Place, not the Most Holy.
True, after the description of His ministry for the saints in the Holy Place, He then receives much incense showing He is preparing to go into the Most Holy Place.
But obviously this passage covers BOTH phases of Christ's Ministry in the heavenly sanctuary.

We are not actually SHOWN the Most Holy Place UNTIL the seventh trumpet.

I agree, the trumps do warn of the impending doom of the unrepentant. Yet what is the big issue that they are warning against? I'm sure the union of Papal Rome and Protestants will be preaching the message of "repentance" and coming into ecumenical movement and unity for the end is near. Aren't they already preaching it?

If that is all the trumpets warn -- then what is to hold one from joining them?

Or should we also consider what the issue of the last days is all about in chapters 13-14,17,18. The trumpets take us back in history to show us the character of the "beast" and the consequences of her methods and ambitions.
Those consequences will be magnified in the end.


Originally Posted By: Karen
The introduction of the Seven Trumpets is for repentance and renewal of our relationship with God in view of the final judgment that is about to fall on the Earth. It is dangerous to stand without an Intercessor if our sins are not blotted out before the close of probation. This is what the introductory scene conveys.


True, salvation is available NOW, and it's very important that we seek the kingdom of God NOW, for tomorrow may be too late. Thousands of people's probation closes every day. It's closed for countless millions throughout the Christian era, when they COULD have been saved. Is this warning important only for the last generation? Or could the history of Christianity been turned at various points had people heeded the warnings?
Now I agree the warning is important in the last days, but that it has a lot of historical data that is to enlighten the present generation.





11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This is speaking of a process. -- The voices are IN HEAVEN. Notice "He shall reign" projects the reign into the future.

Now turn to Daniel 7 where the heavenly court is being set up.
What happens there?
See verses 13 and 14 where Daniel saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Heavenly clouds symbolize a cloud of angels. Thus angels accompany Jesus as He appears before the Ancient of Days (God the Father) seated upon the throne in the heavenly court.
7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The first verdict of the heavenly court is that Christ is the rightful owner of this world, and to Him is given dominion, glory and a kingdom.

This happens BEFORE the second coming -- Christ did not come to earth to receive this title. He appears before the Ancient of Days, as "the Son of Man" -- that is He appears as the representative of the human race to obtain the title and then as our elder brother, shares the inheritance with all Who came to Him for salvation.
[/quote]


Originally Posted By: Karen
It does not make sense to me when the interpretation of the two woes have to be historical events on Earth and the third woe is an event happening in heaven, such as investigative judgment as you have mentioned, although I believe IJ is in progress in the heaven above. The threefold warning is to inhabitants of the Earth that they are going to be severely impacted in the crises.


But doesn't the seventh trumpet have many references to heaven?

" great voices in heaven,"
" four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their thrones"
" the temple of God was opened in heaven,"

So yes, the seventh trumpet combines events in heaven with events on earth.

1844, as the students of prophecy discovered the pre-Advent Judgment beginning in the Most Holy Place, they also realized, from the seventh trumpet description of the Most Holy Place, that the ark of the covenant with the ten commandments were part of last message of the seventh trumpet. The Sabbath truth gained an important place.

Yes, it is describing the activities of the beast before Christ's second coming -- for the mark of the beast is his supposed authority over and above the commandments of our Creator.

Yes, the seventh trumpet ENDS with Christ's second coming.
It began in 1844, but ends with Christ's second coming.
The three angel's messages expand the seventh trumpet. Indeed all chapters 14-20 show the contents of the seventh trumpet.
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MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!

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