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#185646 - 12/02/17 12:55 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Karen Y Offline
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Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 283
Loc: Michigan, US
In the sixth plague, whole world is gathered into a place called Armageddon. There is no physical location by this name. So its connotation refers to a situation of gathering. The essence of the gathering itself is the sixth plague.

Let's ask, who is doing the gathering? what's their strategy?

The three unclean spirits are doing the gathering (Rev. 16:13).
Deception is their strategy (Rev. 16:14).

The whole world is deceived by them and the majority of many professed Christians. If you don't see the ecumenical movement as the sixth plague, you are probably deceived. Many protestants already have joined this movement and hastened into the spiritual place of Armageddon—self destruction.

Armageddon depicts three issues: 1) economic disaster (financial debt), 2)God's judgment, 3) ecumenical movement to annihilate Sabbath keepers.

In the OT time, no gain of money occurred at the battle of Megiddo, which provides insight to our time that severe economy war wages in the whole world.

There was God's judgment for the favor of His people when Jehoshaphat fought the enemy by the Euphrates river and this is true for the remnant of His people.

The sixth plague poured out upon the Euphrates river and ecumenical movement thrives.

I believe Armageddon battle is not in the future but what is going on in the world around us now.
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#185654 - 12/02/17 10:25 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
ProdigalOne Offline
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Registered: 06/06/15
Posts: 664
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Do you believe Armageddon is fought with material weapons or with words?
_________________________
"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of [my] hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
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#185665 - 12/02/17 09:18 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: ProdigalOne]
Karen Y Offline
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Posts: 283
Loc: Michigan, US
If the three unclean spirits are gathering the whole world into the battle of Armageddon, what do you think we have to fight with?

Jesus gave us an answer to your question in Rev. 16:15, "Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
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#185703 - 12/13/17 11:17 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Karen Y Offline
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At the point of the four angels release, the 200 million horsemen immediately obey God's command to slay the wicked: “And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men” (Rev. 9:15).

Some expositors say this adds up to 391 years in prophetic time, meaning the slaying at the close of probation will continue for this long. But is God so merciless that He would take this much time to slaughter one-third of mankind? The answer is no. The close of probation does not take this long. Rev. 22:11 reveals that it happens suddenly and instantly. The hour, day, month, and year indicate a specific point in time, not the total length of time when they are added up.

The 200 million horsemen in the sixth trumpet have been interpreted as the numerous armies of the invading Ottoman Turk empire, whose rule ended after 391 years.

In 1838, preacher Josiah Litch predicted the fall of this empire would occur on Aug. 11, 1840, and that the collapse would fulfill the fifth and sixth trumpets. (To be clear, E.G. White never endorsed Litch’s prediction in her book “The Great Controversy”; she did, however, acknowledge it gave impetus to the Advent movement.)

Litch, forgetting about the change in the Gregorian calendar by two weeks, miscalculated the year. Also, nothing significant happened in 1840 to end the Ottoman rule; the empire officially ended in 1923 and was replaced by the Turkish Republic.

The historical account interpretation of the Seven Trumpets was widely believed prior to 1844 and was developed without the understanding of the heavenly sanctuary and the final mediatorial work of Jesus. So the popular interpretation is faulty without the knowledge of the sanctuary. As it turned out, Litch abandoned his views altogether regarding the Ottoman Turks.

So if we cling to this faulty, outmoded historical account, what is its relevance for us? A vague “numerous armies,” of the heavenly horsemen number 200 million also becomes meaningless.

The holy angels follow the white horse rider, Jesus, the Faithful and True, as they come to destroy the wicked. John heard the exact number of 200 million horsemen, just as he heard the exact number of 144,000. This shows there is significance in this number of holy angels. If one holy angel’s sword is powerful enough to destroy 185,000 Assyrians (see 2 Kings 19:35), imagine the sweeping force of 200 million employed by God. This is the final doomsday for Satan and the wicked.

A criminal does not like to hear that the cops are closing in on him. For Satan, the news that Jesus is coming is the most dreadful. He trembles at the thought of hearing the thundering sound of Christ’s return. The 200 million horsemen are coming with Christ to bind the devil in the bottomless pit. Matt. 12:29 says, “Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.” Thus Jesus comes to “cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up” for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:3).
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#185727 - 12/22/17 07:18 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Daryl Online   canada

Site Administrator
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 23936
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Quote:
In 1838, preacher Josiah Litch predicted the fall of this empire would occur on Aug. 11, 1840, and that the collapse would fulfill the fifth and sixth trumpets. (To be clear, E.G. White never endorsed Litch’s prediction in her book “The Great Controversy”; she did, however, acknowledge it gave impetus to the Advent movement.)

I thought Litch's prediction actually did take place on that day.

From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josiah_Litch
Quote:
In 1838, a friend asked Josiah Litch to read the writings of William Miller. Litch at first was hostile to Miller's prediction of the second coming of Jesus, but after reading he was converted into the Millerite movement.

Litch then wrote his own book, The Probability of the Second Coming of Christ About A.D. 1843. In a comment on Revelation 9, Litch predicted that the Ottoman Empire would lose power in August 1840. When on August 11, 1840, the Ottoman Empire accepted guarantees from the Great Powers, it was interpreted as a fulfillment of Bible prophecy and Litch's interpretation thereof.
_________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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#185728 - 12/22/17 07:26 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Daryl Online   canada

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 23936
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
It also seems that EGW spoke favourably about Litch's prediction of the fall of the Ottoman Empire on August 11, 1840:
Quote:
In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest. Two years before, Josiah Litch, one of the leading ministers preaching the second advent, published an exposition of Revelation 9, predicting the fall of the Ottoman Empire. According to his calculations, this power was to be overthrown "in A.D. 1840, sometime in the month of August;" and only a few days previous to its accomplishment he wrote: "Allowing the first period, 150 years, to have been exactly fulfilled before Deacozes ascended the throne by permission of the Turks, and that the 391 years, fifteen days, commenced at the close of the first period, it will end on the 11th of August, 1840, when the Ottoman power
335
in Constantinople may be expected to be broken. And this, I believe, will be found to be the case."--Josiah Litch, in Signs of the Times, and Expositor of Prophecy, Aug. 1, 1840. {GC 334.4}
At the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nations. The event exactly fulfilled the prediction. (See Appendix.) When it became known, multitudes were convinced of the correctness of the principles of prophetic interpretation adopted by Miller and his associates, and a wonderful impetus was given to the advent movement. Men of learning and position united with Miller, both in preaching and in publishing his views, and from 1840 to 1844 the work rapidly extended. {GC 335.1}

_________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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#185767 - 12/26/17 01:19 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Daryl]
Elle Offline
Active Member 2017
Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 2324
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Daryl
It also seems that EGW spoke favourably about Litch's prediction of the fall of the Ottoman Empire on August 11, 1840:
Quote:
In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest. Two years before, Josiah Litch, one of the leading ministers preaching the second advent, published an exposition of Revelation 9, predicting the fall of the Ottoman Empire. According to his calculations, this power was to be overthrown "in A.D. 1840, sometime in the month of August;" and only a few days previous to its accomplishment he wrote: "Allowing the first period, 150 years, to have been exactly fulfilled before Deacozes ascended the throne by permission of the Turks, and that the 391 years, fifteen days, commenced at the close of the first period, it will end on the 11th of August, 1840, when the Ottoman power
335
in Constantinople may be expected to be broken. And this, I believe, will be found to be the case."--Josiah Litch, in Signs of the Times, and Expositor of Prophecy, Aug. 1, 1840. {GC 334.4}
At the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nations. The event exactly fulfilled the prediction. (See Appendix.) When it became known, multitudes were convinced of the correctness of the principles of prophetic interpretation adopted by Miller and his associates, and a wonderful impetus was given to the advent movement. Men of learning and position united with Miller, both in preaching and in publishing his views, and from 1840 to 1844 the work rapidly extended. {GC 335.1}



Well there's no unbias historical proof...plenty of SDA bias opinions but it doesn't hold water....

see this old discussion entitled " Did the Ottoman Empire really fall in 1840 and is it related to the 7 trumpets?"

Link below:

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...2717#Post182717

The unvalidity of the fall of the Ottoman Empire is also discuss from page 5 to 7 of the discussion "How do we test and tell who are true prophets of God in these last days?".

Link below :

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=182718&page=5
_________________________
Blessings
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#185774 - 12/27/17 07:45 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Karen Y Offline
SDA
Active Member 2017

Full Member
Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 283
Loc: Michigan, US
I see the 200 million horsemen as the armies who follow the white horse rider in Rev. 19:14.

If these many holy angels come with the white horse rider, Jesus Christ, at His second coming, it would be look like Jesus is coming with clouds: "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him" (Rev. 1:7).

Heb. 1:7 "And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."

Isa. 66:15 "For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire."

2 Thess 1:7 "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire"

Matt. 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

In Rev. 9:15, the release of the four angels who are holding the winds of Rev. 7:1-3, depicts the close of probation and the command comes out from the temple where the four horns of the golden altar exists.

The sanctuary is the template to interpret Revelation. When God responds to Jesus' mediatorial work at last in the heavenly sanctuary by commanding no more mercy to the impenitents, the wrath of God would be poured out. Immediately, the 200 million horsemen would be lifting God's blessing and protection from the earth, then the wicked will arise to destroy themselves: "For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt" (Rev. 9:19). This is the second woe: the sixth trumpet is sounding now for the warning of the close of probation and the seven last plagues.
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#185817 - 01/04/18 11:05 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Karen Y Offline
SDA
Active Member 2017

Full Member
Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 283
Loc: Michigan, US
As the Seven Angels carry out God’s command to “Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God,” we see the 200 million horsemen slay one-third of the wicked men on earth.

Ezek. 38:21 says evil destroys evil: “every man’s sword shall be against his brother.” So when God withdraws His protective powers upon the wicked, they slay themselves. God is in control and His Word shall be fulfilled according to His command.

From the mouth of the 200 million horsemen, the fire, smoke and brimstone come out to destroy the three entities of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet of the sixth plague. The fire, smoke and brimstone are called the plague in Rev. 9:20 for they aim at the three unclean spirits of devil in Rev. 16:13-14.

The three unclean spirits gather the whole world to make war with the remnant of God; they form a spiritual Babylon. The dragon represent paganism; the beast Papacy; and false prophet apostate Protestant. Pagans are the habitation of devils, Papacy has foul spirit because they pray to dead spirit of saints, and the apostate protestant make nonsense noises like hateful bird. (see Rev. 18:2).

They unite their power to destroy God's church, but they will be split into three parts; "the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of nations fell; and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath" (Rev. 16:19).

Jesus is the King of kings, and the Lord of lords. He is the white horse rider in Rev. 19:11 and He has His armies of 200 million holy angels who follow Him. They are going to destroy the wicked and the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication.
(see Rev. 19:2, 14)
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