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#163274 - 03/11/14 11:03 PM Seven Trumpets reconsidered
Karen Y Offline
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Loc: Michigan, US
I would like to see some discussion on the Seven Trumpets of the Book of Revelation. I believe that the 7 trumpets are the warnings of the coming judgment on the earth. The four angels in Chap 7 were holding the winds of the four corners of the earth. At the end of the probationary time, God commands the four angels to loose the wind(Rev 9:14), they immediately obey God's order to let go the wind. Since the voice came out from the four horns of the golden altar, it portrays that God's mercy reached the limit toward the unrepentant humanity when the four angels let loose the wind. Pr Kenneth Cox also recently interpreted that 'an hour, a day, a month, and a year(Rev 9:15) is not 391 years of a prophetic time but it is a point of time when the probationary time ends. Please watch in the YouTube. However, I believe that the five months(150 days) indicate literal prophetic time period because no other seals and trumpets have a time designated like this fifth trumpet. Perhaps it might indicate that SDA church preaching the Present Truth that gives the torment as to want to die but death shall flee from them. Like Pr Cox said that the fifth trumpet is saying about demoniac activities. Nothing like torment of a spiritual torture. The SDA preached 150 years(150 days = 150 years) of the Present Truth which the demoniac forces hate such of the work of the LORD. Nevertheless, they are sure to deceive those who are unprepared to face their swift attack-they have the wings as to the running to battle. They have crowns which indicate the demoniac victory. They have the faces of men indicate intelligence involved. They have the hair like women indicate their seductive power. Their breastplates of iron indicate their power to searing the conscience. The prince of the air is the Satan who is the fallen star and the king over the bottomless pit- called Abaddon or Apollyon. The sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke. The smoke indicates prayers(Rev 5:8). Because the prayers went up to the throne of God which Jesus ministers with His 'sweet incense', the judgment must come down to the earth when the probation ends. God's way is in the sanctuary. If His way is defiled by snatching the prayers of people(DARKENED BY REASON OF THE SMOKE OF THE PIT), the judgment must come down-'the angel took the censer…cast it into the earth(Rev 8:5). let us continue study.

Blessings,

Karen
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#163381 - 03/14/14 04:12 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
James Peterson Offline
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Originally Posted By: Karen Y
I would like to see some discussion on the Seven Trumpets of the Book of Revelation. I believe that the 7 trumpets are the warnings of the coming judgment on the earth. The four angels in Chap 7 were holding the winds of the four corners of the earth. At the end of the probationary time, God commands the four angels to loose the wind(Rev 9:14), they immediately obey God's order to let go the wind. Since the voice came out from the four horns of the golden altar, it portrays that God's mercy reached the limit toward the unrepentant humanity when the four angels let loose the wind. Pr Kenneth Cox also recently interpreted that 'an hour, a day, a month, and a year(Rev 9:15) is not 391 years of a prophetic time but it is a point of time when the probationary time ends. Please watch in the YouTube. However, I believe that the five months(150 days) indicate literal prophetic time period because no other seals and trumpets have a time designated like this fifth trumpet. Perhaps it might indicate that SDA church preaching the Present Truth that gives the torment as to want to die but death shall flee from them. Like Pr Cox said that the fifth trumpet is saying about demoniac activities. Nothing like torment of a spiritual torture. The SDA preached 150 years(150 days = 150 years) of the Present Truth which the demoniac forces hate such of the work of the LORD. Nevertheless, they are sure to deceive those who are unprepared to face their swift attack-they have the wings as to the running to battle. They have crowns which indicate the demoniac victory. They have the faces of men indicate intelligence involved. They have the hair like women indicate their seductive power. Their breastplates of iron indicate their power to searing the conscience. The prince of the air is the Satan who is the fallen star and the king over the bottomless pit- called Abaddon or Apollyon. The sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke. The smoke indicates prayers(Rev 5:8). Because the prayers went up to the throne of God which Jesus ministers with His 'sweet incense', the judgment must come down to the earth when the probation ends. God's way is in the sanctuary. If His way is defiled by snatching the prayers of people(DARKENED BY REASON OF THE SMOKE OF THE PIT), the judgment must come down-'the angel took the censer…cast it into the earth(Rev 8:5). let us continue study.

Blessings,

Karen


It is not necessary to fully understand the symbolism of the seven trumpets. Love is all than matters: for God and man.

///
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#163386 - 03/14/14 04:59 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
kland Offline
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Women's hair is seductive? What about long hair on a guy?
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#163407 - 03/15/14 03:08 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: kland]
Wendell Slattery Offline
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Karen Y,

I don't think I agree with Cox. I respect him, but I realize that none of us has a perfect understanding of the Bible, and in this instance, I believe he is mistaken.

Here are several things that you may want to consider.

I have noticed in several places in the book of Revelation, a vision starts out with a scene that forms sort of a background explanation of what is to follow. For example, Revelation 11:1-2 forms the background which tells you that what is to follow is to take place near the very end of the 1260 days. It does that by taking you backwards in time from the investigative Judgment time (measure the worshipers in the temple - judgment of them - see Daniel 5) to the time of the 1260 days (the time when the holy city is to be trampled under foot by the gentiles, which you can show is the 1260 days by using the statements of Jesus). The same is done in Revelation 14 in the description of the 144,000. They are presented first in order for you to know who the people are that will deliver the messages of Revelation 14. So, likewise, the beginning of Revelation 8 is an introductory scene of the things that are to follow. This is not an introduction of things that follow in the text and yet have already happened, for that would be putting the cart before the horse.

There is a second piece of evidence in Revelation 8 which shows that this is NOT the end of the Investigative Judgment that is being presented, but the beginning of a series of plagues. The angel throws down the censer to the ground. Now, we all have been told that Jesus will do that when probation ends. But as I understand it, when he does this, he has taken the censer into the most holy place as that is where he works during this time. In contrast with this, the angel is standing in front of the altar of incense in the holy place, not the most holy place. Thus, when he throws it down to the ground, this represents that this event is done during the time before 1844. If the angel had been said to take the censer into the most holy place and then throw it down, then we should understand that this would represent an event after 1844. But because he did not take it into the most holy place, we cannot assume that he did so. We know he is in front of the altar and we cannot move him without specific instruction to do so. Thus, when he throws down the censer, it is done before the alter of incense in the holy place.

What this tells you is that the events which follow with the trumpets all take place before probation closes.

The description of the powers that do the first woe fits the Saracens, the followers of Mohammed and those who lived after his death until the establishment of the caliphate in its fullest main extent. The Year, month, day, hour point to a specific point in time when the 6th trumpet would start. What follows fits a reasonably good description of canon fire in a battle. I believe this almost certainly corresponds to the conquest of Constantinople, which was a major event in the history of Eastern Christianity.

The 7th trumpet is often claimed to begin at the close of probation and continue onward. This is a mistake. Compare verse 15 with verse 18 and you will discover that the blowing of the trumpet and the close of probation come some time apart from one another, and in fact, years apart. They are not events that occur at the close of probation. Rather, it is describing events that occur before the close of probation and that, in fact, cause the close of probation. In that way the plagues that are the trumpets are not continuing into the time of the 7 last plagues. Consider that if the last trumpet plague continues into the time of the 7 last plagues, then there are actually 8 last plagues. We know that is not true, so the trumpets MUST complete before the close of probation so that they do not overlap.


Edited by Wendell Slattery (03/15/14 03:12 AM)
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#163410 - 03/15/14 09:52 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Wendell Slattery]
Karen Y Offline
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Active Member 2017

Full Member
Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 283
Loc: Michigan, US
Dear Wendell,

I agree with you about the seven trumpets that must occur before the probation ends. According to Dr LaRondell's exposition in his book 'The end time prophecy of the bible' explains it very well. Pr Cox seem to interpret the seven trumpets as literal events to take place. My understanding of the Seven Trumpets is as the warning of the coming Seven Plagues.
Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God does nothing, unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets."
The most catastrophic plagues which this earth is going to experience during the time of the Seven Plagues. God must warn the world what is coming by the voice of the 'Trumpets' which the remnants of God are commissioned to do so.
Regrettably, God's people did not study the blueprint of God carefully until this time, the Seven Trumpets has been misinterpreted which it should have been blown ever since 1844. This is my point of view.

The Seven Plagues have obvious connection with the Seven Trumpets.

THE SEVEN PLAGUES THE SEVEN TRUMPETS

Rev 16:2 ‘foul and loathsome sore’
Upon men(pestilence) on earth Rev 8:7 ‘hail and fire…mingled with
blood’ upon earth

----------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 16:3 sea ‘became blood as of
a dead man’ (pollution of sea) Rev 8:8 ‘sea became blood…living
creatures in the sea died’ (diseased
conditions of the sea creatures)

----------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 16:4-7 ‘the rivers and springs of
water, … became blood’(pollution of
the drinking water) Rev 8:10 ‘rivers and springs of water…
(became) Wormwood…many men died
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Rev 16:8-9 ‘sun…to scorch men with
fire… blasphemed the name of God’
(global warming issues) Rev 8:12 ‘sun…moon, stars’ are
darkened(heavenly bodies showing signs
of the time)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 16:10-11 ‘seat of the beast…
darkened’ (the Papacy) Rev 9:1-12 star fell from heaven
(originated from Satan to the Papacy);
sun, air darkened
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 16:12-16 three unclean spirits by
the great river Euphrates
(these 3 identities will receive
the three plagues) Rev 9:12-21 three plagues by the great
river Euphrates (the warning to the 3
identities)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 16:17-21 ‘It is done’ Rev 11:15 ‘this world have become the
kingdoms of our LORD’

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I appreciate your sincerely participation on this topic of discussion.
I pray that the Holy Spirit teach me to the truth.
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#163535 - 03/18/14 12:10 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
kland Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 5023
Loc: Midland
Quote:
In contrast with this, the angel is standing in front of the altar of incense in the holy place, not the most holy place.
Does it matter that it is a golden censer?

Quote:
But as I understand it, when he does this, he has taken the censer into the most holy place as that is where he works during this time.
And what about casting it into the earth and the thunderings, lightnings, and earthquake?


Karen, do you find it unusual of the parallels between the trumpets and plagues you listed if they are not the same events?
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#163538 - 03/18/14 02:16 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: kland]
dedication Online   content

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Posts: 4342
Loc: Canada
Revelation 8:2-5 gives the entire picture of Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary from the beginning of His work in the holy place to the end when the censor is thrown down and probation is closed.

Revelation 8:6 and onward gives the entire picture of judgments upon the earth during this same entire time.


DO THE TRUMPETS SOUND BEFORE OR AFTER THE GOLDEN CENSOR IS CAST DOWN?



Revelation 8:2 begins the heavenly scene. We see the High Priest with the Golden censor standing before the altar of incense, (which is in the Holy Place) making intercession for the people.


Revelation has already depicted Christ as "tending the lamps" filling His churches with the oil of the Holy Spirit.
Here we see Him offering incense before the throne offering mercy and merits with the prayers of His people.

These were two functions of the High Priest in the Holy Place--
Ex. 30:7 And Aaron (type of our High Priest) shall burn thereon (on the altar of incense) sweet incense every morning: when he dresseth the lamps, he shall burn incense upon it.
30:8 And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations."
Throughout the ages of the Christian Church, Christ was officiating as the HIGH PRIEST for us in the heavenly sanctuary.

But then in Rev. 8:5, we see a change--

The angel takes fire from the altar and fills the censor.
This signifies He is getting ready to into the Most Holy Place.

Lev. 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring [it] within the veil:

He is ready to go into the Most Holy Place — the day of Atonement is about to begin.
In the earthly day of atonement service the priest was to "take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and sweet incense and bring it within the veil", as we saw in the text above.

On the day of Atonement the Priest took this censor filled with burning coals, as well as incense, with him into the Most Holy Place. When he came out of the Most Holy Place, the censor was put down and sin and unrepentant sinners were "cast out" of the camp. (Lev. 23:29)

When the priest comes out and throws down the censor, it will be too late to change, probation will be closed.

Now lets look closely at verse five.

When the Priest throws down the censor there will be noise and an earthquake and thunderings.
BUT
it is not until the very last trumpet, the seventh trumpet is sounded that the noise, thunderings, lightnings actually are heard. Rev. 11:19

Rev. 8:5 And the angel took the censer, filled with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth; and there were VOICES, AMD THUNDERINGS, AND LIGHTNINGS, AMD AM EARTHQUAKE.


When do see this happening?
Rev. 11:15,19 And the seventh angel sounded....the temple of God was opened in heaven and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament; AND THERE WERE VOICES, LIGHTNINGS, and THUNDERINGS and an EARTHQUAKE, and great HAIL.


Here we see that the events described as happening after the "throwing down", namely the noise, thunder, voices and lightning, happen AFTER the seventh trumpet begins to sound, and before it has finished sounded. When it finishes sounding the kingdoms of earth will be the kingdoms of Christ.
Therefore the trumpets sound before the censor is thrown down for they are the WARNINGS throughout history that the censor WILL be thrown down, and probation will not last forever.
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#163539 - 03/18/14 02:24 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
dedication Online   content

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The seven trumpets and seven plagues are not the same events. Though the one foreshadows the other.
The seven trumpets are still mixed with mercy (Christ is still holding the censor of mercy)
The plagues after probation is closed, fall without mercy.
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#163541 - 03/18/14 02:55 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
dedication Online   content

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The prophet John, puts the Great Disappointment of 1844 between the sixth and seventh trumpet.

Revelation 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as [when] a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take [it], and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.



between the sixth and seventh trumpet --
This messenger (which is none other than Jesus Himself)
emphasises the "creator God" (same as the 1st angel's message.
Declares that time reckoning is finished.
and speaks of the Great Disappoint after which God's people must go out and preach to the world again.


The seven thunders begin to sound at this time. 1842->
The seven thunders we are told is the work of the three angel's messages of Rev. 14
(See EGW comments in 7BC 971)


Trumpets 1 - 6 ...........................Trumpet 7 -----------------------------------l
31 A.D. to 1841........................... 1842 to the end
..........................................seven thunders -->close of probation
..............................................................seven plagues-->Christ reigns
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#163566 - 03/19/14 09:02 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: kland]
Karen Y Offline
SDA
Active Member 2017

Full Member
Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 283
Loc: Michigan, US
My understanding of the correlation between the Seven Trumpets and the Seven Plagues is not identifying them as the same events per se. But the Seven Trumpets are the warnings to the events of the Seven Plagues. So I believe that the Seven Trumpets of warning should go out to the world as loud as the Joshua's day(Joshua Chap. 6) when the Jericho fell with the seven rounds of their compass and blew the trumpets. I also believe that the probation is still granted during the
time of the Seven Trumpets that is being sounded. The full assurance of Jesus Christ's ministry in the most holy place is revealed in the Revelation of Chap 8:2-5. In the Book of Hebrews Chap. 9:3-4 indicate that the golden censer is one of the article of the most holy place.
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