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#163568 - 03/19/14 10:39 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
kland Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
When do see this happening?
Rev. 11:15,19 And the seventh angel sounded....the temple of God was opened in heaven and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament; AND THERE WERE VOICES, LIGHTNINGS, and THUNDERINGS and an EARTHQUAKE, and great HAIL.


Here we see that the events described as happening after the "throwing down", namely the noise, thunder, voices and lightning, happen AFTER the seventh trumpet begins to sound, and before it has finished sounded. When it finishes sounding the kingdoms of earth will be the kingdoms of Christ.
Therefore the trumpets sound before the censor is thrown down for they are the WARNINGS throughout history that the censor WILL be thrown down, and probation will not last forever.
Is there anything in it which says that after the censer is cast down that all the trumpets do not sound including the 7th at the end? I'm not following, "Therefore the trumpets sound before the censor is thrown down" because you just said, "Here we see that the events described as happening after the "throwing down"". Yes, it's after, but how much after and how many other things happen in between?


Originally Posted By: dedication
The seven trumpets and seven plagues are not the same events. Though the one foreshadows the other.
If you were given the content of the trumpets and plagues without knowing which were which, would you be able to know the difference?
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#163569 - 03/19/14 10:42 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
kland Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
The prophet John, puts the Great Disappointment of 1844 between the sixth and seventh trumpet.
Chapter 10 is another scene inserted in the middle, like in many other places, describing the 144,000.
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#163576 - 03/19/14 09:46 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
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Christ in the Holy Place.....................Christ fills censor .........................Christ finishes work
................................................with burning coals.........................in Most Holy Place.....................Christ reigns
................................................and enters Most Holy.........................throws down censor
....................................................................................................probation closes

Trumpets 1 - 6 .............................. Trumpet 7 ------------------------------------------------>
31 A.D. to 1841............................... covers time from 1842 to Christ's reign
historical..........................................seven thunders speak, warning the world
judgments on ..........................................................................................seven plagues................Christ reigns
professing
Christians
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#163580 - 03/19/14 10:13 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: kland]
dedication Online   content

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Originally Posted By: kland



Originally Posted By: dedication
The seven trumpets and seven plagues are not the same events. Though the one foreshadows the other.
If you were given the content of the trumpets and plagues without knowing which were which, would you be able to know the difference?


The trumpets are mixed with mercy,
-- a third part of the rivers, a third part of the sea, a third part of the trees.....
Throughout Christian history are revealed judgments on the professing but not genuine Christians.

But the plagues are not mixed with mercy,
-- no more fractions, the sea becomes blood and EVERY living thing therein dies...

Also the plagues are declared as "the last" "for in them is filled up the wrath of God"

They come after the "image of the beast" is in place,and people have accepted the "mark of the beast" . (See 16:2)


The seven thunders from Rev. 10 (which are the proclamation of the three angel's messages (see 7BC 971.6} send out the last warning message to the world at the end of the sixth trumpet and throughout the seventh trumpet.

The plagues are the fulfilment of the warning in the third angel's message and the angel of Rev. 18.
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#163619 - 03/22/14 06:15 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
Wendell Slattery Offline
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Any interpretation which places the trumpets at the end is incorrect. The reason is very simple. In Revelation 10:6 it very clearly tells us that there is no more time. Now, it is not possible that this refers to the end of the world because there is the statement in Revelation 10!1 that he must prophecy again, which means that there is yet more preaching of the gospel and the book of Revelation was to continue to be preached through the world. Thus, the statement that there is no more time is referring to prophetic time rather than literal time.

We know that Revelation 10 is about the Millerite experience leading up to the beginning of the Investigative Judgment. The only logical explanation for the angel's statement about there being no more time is that he is talking about prophetic time, that there is no more prophetic time. However, Revelation 9:10 tells us that the grasshoppers were allowed to torture men for a period of 5 months. This is a specific time period that is spoken of, so it CANNOT refer to a time after 1844 because there are only prophesied events, not time periods, after 1844. It matters not whether this is literal time or symbolic time that is spoken of because there just simply is no more prophesied time periods after 1844.

Thus, any interpretation which places the trumpets after 1844 is simply wrong. You need to go back to the historical method of interpretation to get it right.
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#163620 - 03/22/14 11:56 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Wendell Slattery]
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I agree, Wendell,
The historical sequence of the seven churches, seals and trumpets are part of the "platform" upon which our church is established.
This is especially true of the seven trumpets.
After the sixth trumpet, the time lines had all ended.

After the sixth trumpet the account is given of the downfall of the oppressive papal/state conditions, with first an attempt to destroy the Bible but in actuality liberating the Bible to speak as never before. (Chapter 11)
After the sixth trumpet the Great disappoint is outlined in chapter 10 and the people are told to go and prophecy again.

Thus between the sixth and seventh trumpet the world is prepared for the three angels' messages.

Its after the sixth trumpet that the SEVEN THUNDERS (which we are told contain the three angels messages) began to thunder. (7BC 971)

The seventh trumpet we are told by EGW in Great Controversy page 433 begins in 1844 and it leads us to the full reign of Christ and end of the present world.
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#163626 - 03/22/14 07:54 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
Wendell Slattery Offline
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dedication,

While I think the 6th trumpet does not contain a time prophecy, but rather points to a specific event that occurs in the 1400s, and I think that the 7th trumpet points to being blown after 1844 but before the close of probation, it is abundantly clear that there are prophetic time lines present within several of the trumpets which shows that most of them occur before 1844. Any effort to put the first 6 trumpets after 1844 will lead to erroneous results, of that you can be guaranteed. The angel of Revelation 10 was very clear on this, "no more time!" which should not be controverted. I don't know why people try to get around that because its so clear as to be unmistakable.

To me there is enough evidence to believe the historical interpretation of the trumpets. But some people are not satisfied with that. They want something new, so they put the trumpets into the future. I think that they are bound to be disappointed because the angel was not a liar - "no more time!" Will they believe the angel or not?

If the angel's words were not so clear as they are, then perhaps trying to come up with a new understanding might be warranted. But that is not the case. We know what his words mean. We should believe them.
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#163634 - 03/22/14 10:35 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Wendell Slattery]
Karen Y Offline
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Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 283
Loc: Michigan, US

The development of the seven trumpets is after the seventh seal has opened. I would like to understand and start from what we know first.
Pulling the first trumpet of the vision to the first seal time period, second trumpet to second seal period so on can lead to diverse erroneous theories. No wonder that there is no consistency among the people of expositors of the Book of Revelation regarding the seven trumpets.
I would ask God to reveal what is that we need to understand for the correct interpretation rather than speculating the vision of the seven trumpets on my own. We are told that Jesus Christ's intercessory ministration exists during the seven trumpets' time as the introductory sanctuary vision is given in Rev Chap 8:2-5. We know that the ash of the censor has not been casted down yet.
In the ancient time, the trumpets are blown prior to the Day of Atonement. I believe that the Book of Revelation has to be interpreted in the perspective of the sanctuary service.
The Anti-typical Day of Atonement began in 1844. Only the priests were permitted to blow the trumpets for the Day of Atonement. Likewise the remnant of God which are 'priests' must blow the warnings of the judgment of God. Yes, SDA has been preaching the three angels' messages but must blow the trumpets sound as the angel of the Chap 18:1 with great power which portrays in the story of Joshua to bring the fall of Jericho. This must be done for the fall of spiritual Babylon too.
The 'time no longer' may indicate that God’s people of the Anti-typical Day of Atonement must do this commission in no time.
The 5-month periods has no certain beginning that connected to 2300 day prophecy. It just indicates that a period of time, in this case, the demonic activities. The 'half an hour' of silence in Chap. 8:1 which is still future, suggests that the justice of God has been fully executed then the one of the development of the trumpets includes the five months. How can a longer period of time included in the 'half an hour' unless we should understand it as the warnings rather than the events of the seven trumpets.

I understand that the fifth trumpet is portraying the demonic activities to attack 'the inhabiters of the earth' which is not in a corner of the earth like the historical interpretation often says. This is the first woe that impacts humanity globally as well as the other woes. "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth(Rev 12:12)" also indicates that this involves the whole earth.
During the fifth trumpet, God commands 'that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green things, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads (Chap 9:4). This sealing of God depicts apocalyptic sealing. It is not about the sealing of the gospel. We must read in the context. The people who are not sealed of God will receive the mark of the beast which the first plague indicates(Chap 16:2).
I believe that the seven trumpets are the warnings for the seven plagues. Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

Blessings,

Karen
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#163636 - 03/23/14 01:13 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Wendell Slattery]
dedication Online   content

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I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not, Wendell.

I'm agreeing with you that six of the seven trumpets all took place BEFORE 1844 --

Are you confusing what I said about the seven THUNDERS with the seven trumpets?

The seven THUNDERS are the warning message (three angels' messages) that sound from 1842 to the end.

The seven TRUMPETS have all sounded over the course of Christian history. We are now in the seventh trumpet.
The seventh trumpet according to EGW began in 1844.
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#163637 - 03/23/14 01:28 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
dedication Online   content

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Originally Posted By: Karen Y

In the ancient time, the trumpets are blown prior to the Day of Atonement. I believe that the Book of Revelation has to be interpreted in the perspective of the sanctuary service.
The Anti-typical Day of Atonement began in 1844. Only the priests were permitted to blow the trumpets for the Day of Atonement.


In the Israelite calendar, the first day of each "month" was a day for trumpets to be blown.
It is interesting that the day of atonement is in the seventh month --
The Passover being in the first month.
Thus seven months have passed, each beginning with the blowing of trumpets.
These seven months forshadowed the whole Christian era.


It seems very likely that the blowing of the seven trumpets in Revelation correspond to the blowing of trumpets at the seven New Moon (or New Month) festivals in the Old Testament. Each new moon trumpet blowing was understood as a day of judgment in miniature, which warned people to prepare for the final judgment ushered in by the Feast of Trumpets. When the seventh trumpet blew, it was to announce the Day of Atonement was at hand.

This understanding fits the sequence in Revelation perfectly.

The first six trumpets sound during Christian history.
Then in the early 1840's the first of the thunders begins to roll (THUNDERS NOT TRUMPETS) the first angels message begins to sound.
This we see in Chapter 10 where the Great Disappointment is described.

The seventh trumpet reveals the ark of the covenant.

Quote:
“The temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament.” [Revelation 11:19.] The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served “unto the example and shadow of heavenly things,” this apartment was opened only upon the great day of atonement, for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and the ark of his testament was seen, points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, in 1844, as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. Those who by faith followed their great High Priest, as he entered upon his ministry in the most holy place, beheld the ark of his testament. As they had studied the subject of the sanctuary, they had come to understand the Saviour's change of ministration, and they saw that he was now officiating before the ark of God, pleading his blood in behalf of sinners. {GC88 433.1}
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