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#172934 - 04/29/15 10:11 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Mark Shipowick Offline
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Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Mark, please let me know the SOP references. I would appreciate that. I have also mentioned about the seven thunders in this thread in the past. I hope that you can find it. If not, I have to find another time to share my understanding of that.


Here is the main one I'm aware of. Notice the context, the San Francisco earthquake:
Quote:
Yesterday, on our way home from Mountain View, we stopped to take a view of the destruction in San Francisco. Notwithstanding some of the buildings were of the most stable kind and were supposed to be proof against disaster, the city is a ruin. In some places the buildings are sunken into the ground. This city presents a most powerful picture of the inefficiency of human devising and human skill to withstand the carrying out of the Lord's mandate. {21MR 91.2}
For our people to begin commercial enterprises in such a place will be to soothe the fears of those to whom they will come with the Bible message of truth. {21MR 91.3}

Let all who would understand the meaning of these things read the eleventh chapter of Revelation. Read every verse, and learn the things that are yet to take place in the cities. Read also the scenes portrayed in the eighteenth chapter of the same book. {21MR 91.4}

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." It will not be to the credit of any who believe the word of the prophecies of this book to ignore the special indications of God, and show indifference in regard to this wonderful display of the power of God because of the sins of this city recently destroyed. The Lord forbid that those who have witnessed this great destruction shall make light of the matter and flatter themselves that in the future they will have buildings far in advance of any buildings they have yet had. For if those who have felt the rebuke of God shall set themselves defiantly to invest their means as they have done, God will exercise His power to counteract their efforts. This calamity calls for men who have abused their privileges and taken advantage of their fellow men, to make amends for the wrong they have done. The Lord has spoken. Will men hear His voice? {21MR 91.5}


For those who are open to it, I think it would be wise to apply her advice regarding the lessons to learn from San Francisco to 9/11 as well. As some faithful non-Adventist preachers have pointed out, the general response of America to that terrible disaster has been to ignore it and say "we will rebuild even better and come back stronger". Economic and physical recovery are fine but without repentance they are a distraction and miss the point. Notice what she says the result of ignoring the warning will be.

Karen I'll use the search feature and see if I can't find your thunders comment. It may be a few days.
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#172936 - 04/30/15 07:34 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Karen Y Offline
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Quote:
Let all who would understand the meaning of these things read the eleventh chapter of Revelation. Read every verse, and learn the things that are yet to take place in the cities. Read also the scenes portrayed in the eighteenth chapter of the same book. {21MR 91.4}


My perspective on the seven trumpets is present and future because it announces the close of the probation and the coming judgment of the seven plagues. We are told that the seventh trumpet takes “days…to sound”. (Rev. 10:7). The entire message of the seven trumpets may declare simultaneously in the “In the days of their prophecy” (Rev. 11:6).

Take a notice that the seventh trumpet announces for the “kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”(Rev. 11:15). How long this announcement last? It said, “days”.

Upon the proclamation, the twenty-four elders fall before God on their faces, saying, “thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name”. (Rev. 11:18). They also say, “thy wrath is come”. The terrors of the wrath are manifested in the temple where the ark of the testament exists.

When the temple is opened in heaven, the “lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail” (Rev. 11:19) have revealed but have not executed until the vial of the seventh plague poured out. There was “a great voice out of the temple of heaven...saying, It is done” (Rev. 16:17), then the terrors of the “voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and …a great earthquake…a great hail” fell upon men out of heaven. (Rev. 16:18-21).

Evidently, the two witnesses prophesy the coming judgment of God just as Moses has announced the judgment upon the Pharaoh and Elijah to the king Ahab.

Exodus 7:1-2, 4 “And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.”
“But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.”

1 King 17:1 “And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the Lord God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.”

Rev. 11:6 “These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”

The very manner here depicted, reveals that nothing can interfere with their witness-bearing until they shall have finished their testimony. The two witnesses will prophesy about the close of the probation and the coming judgment to the Antichrist Empire.

We must reconsider the seven trumpets.
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#173037 - 05/05/15 12:17 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Karen Y Offline
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Must we interpret the Seven Trumpets in historicist approach?

1 Cor. 14:7-8 “And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?”

Each chapter of the Book of Revelation transpires the image of the sanctuary, which indicates that the story of redemption in the sanctuary service is the key to interpret the prophecy of this book.

Chap. 1 – Jesus is walking amongst the Seven Candlesticks
Chap. 2 & 3 – Seven Churches in the midst of the tabernacle
Chap. 4 – Throne of God, 4 beasts, & 24 Elders
Chap. 5 – Sealed book with seven seals, the host of angels, & the universal beings
Chap. 6 – martyrs cry out under the altar
Chap. 7 – 4 beasts holding the winds for the sealing of God’s people, wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb, and serving before the throne of God
Chap. 8 – prayers of the saint ascend up before God out of the angel’s hand upon the golden altar; there are the ark of covenant, the altar of incense, and the seven candlesticks before the throne of God
Chap. 9 – a voice from the golden altar which is before God said to loose the four angels because Jesus’ intercession has ceased.
Chap. 10 – Jesus is entering the second veil (judgment and the restoration of Sabbath)
Chap. 11 – there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament (the Ten
Commandment)
Chap. 12 – the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ (the Ten
Commandment)
Chap. 13 – Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; sacrificial offering in the sanctuary
Chap. 14 – angel came out of the temple command to harvest the grains and the ripen grapes
Chap. 15 – the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened
Chap. 16 – a great voice out of the temple of heaven, “It is done”; entire commands always come out of the temple
Chap. 17 – whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world; book of life is in temple of God
Chap. 18 – come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins,…receive not of her plagues
Chap. 19 – out of temple of heaven; Jesus clothed with a vesture dipped in blood and comes with the armies of heaven
Chap. 20 – saints live and reign with Christ a thousand years in heaven
Chap. 21 – the tabernacle of God is with men and saw no temple therein; redemption of men is completed so no need of the temple
Chap. 22 – river of life and tree of life

The entire chapters are full of the imageries of the sanctuary.

Psalms 77:13 “Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?”

Are we to measure the redemption of God, which is so deep and great, with the history of the earth? How can we measure the sky with span of our hand? Are we to interpret the Seven Trumpets (Chap. 8 – 11) only with the history of the earth and the rest of the chapters of the book of Revelation in the perspective of the sanctuary? I do not think so. The book of Revelation has to be understood in the perspective of the redemption of God, which is depicted in the sanctuary. Historicist approach to interpret the seven trumpet is like calling a big thing small, and a small thing big. In another words, the great redemption made a small thing, and the history of the earth, which is small thing compare to everlasting life, made a big thing.
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#173041 - 05/05/15 01:34 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
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I fully believe Revelation is the revelation of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, and that the historicist interpretation fully supports this.

Thus I find your question, which seems to think the two are incompatible, troubling.

I hope you won't mind if I ask some questions:

When you speak of the sanctuary do you see it's main operation only now or only in the future, not in history?

Do you think Christ's sanctuary ministry was not involved with earth's history?

Do you believe the "sanctuary" also includes, and deems as important the first phase of 1812 years (32-1844)in the Holy Place?
And that Revelation had a message for the people living in those years?



Do you think that people who see the prophecies as God working with the nations and with His people throughout the Christian era somehow not dealing with the redemption of God?

How is studying the full scope of the "great controversy between Christ and Satan" throughout Christian history and culminating with the last confrontation and final victory at the Advent of Christ, "small" while channelling everything into a study of a quick succession of calamities just before the end is "big"?

How does the interpretation putting the seven trumpets as a succession of these calamities in a short period just before the end present everlasting life in any "bigger way" then the interpretation that sees God's warnings and judgments throughout Christian history, leading up to the final judgment when the time has come to reward the saints and destroy them that destroy the earth?

I guess another question is -- have you ever REALLY studied the historicist interpretation?
Have you ever read Stephen Haskell's book "Seer of Patmos"?

It's very much about Christ's ministry in the sanctuary and it is the historical interpretation.

It is precisely the "history of the earth" that shows God's redemptive love. It is the very thing God is redeeming us from.

How can we know the powers that will try to rob us of eternal life if we don't know who they are?
Historical prophetic interpretation shows who they are, as well as how to gain the victory over them through Christ.

Quote:
"As I see what God has wrought, I am filled with astonishment, and with confidence in Christ as leader. We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history." {CET 204.1}

Solomon tells us in Eccl 1:9 "The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Paul tells us the past was recorded for our admonition.
1 Cor. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The past always has a way of returning. Those who don't learn, or can't remember it, cannot see the signs of it's approach and will be overwhelmed by it.
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#173045 - 05/05/15 02:20 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Mark Shipowick]
dedication Online   content

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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

Do you have any thoughts on the seven thunders? They come in at the sixth trumpet just before the Two Witnesses but I think that, like the Two Witnesses, the thunders may span much of the trumpets. Again, any thoughts?


The seven thunders are part of Revelation 10.
Revelation 10 is a description of the Millerite movement, as the book of Daniel is opened and the time lines are studied.
It is sweet as honey in the mouth, but becomes bitter as the people face a great disappoint.

Indeed it is between the sixth and seventh trumpet.
And it is at this time that seven thunders start to rumble.

They have something to do with the three angel's messages.

Quote:
After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the injunction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered." These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order....
The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work....
That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. 1MR 99-100
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#173056 - 05/06/15 01:14 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Karen Y Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication

I guess another question is -- have you ever REALLY studied the historicist interpretation?

Historicist interpretation on Chap. 8-11 has diversity of views even within dedicated Adventists. We can not say that the trumpets are making a certain sound such a way. There also can be no possible understanding without a thorough knowledge of the history of the nations involving Christendom. We should be able to understand the prophecy at an one glance.(Hab. 2:2).

[url=http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2012/01/the-seven-trumpets-of-revelation][/url]
Quote:
"Diversity of views
The following chart illustrates how the application of the previous principles of interpretation to the trumpets by dedicated Adventists could result in a diversity of views regarding the prophecy’s precise historical fulfillment. This chart is not comprehensive but illustrative.4"-Ministry Magazine/2012/01


Quote:
Habakkuk 2:2 "And the LORD anwered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it"


Quote:
Isa. 34:16 “Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.”


The four angels hear a command from the temple to loose the hold (Rev. 9:13-15), which they were holding while the sealing of God (Rev. 7:1-3), progressed. In another words, the close of the probation suddenly transpire at the moment of the command-at the point of a time.

The introductory vision for the seven trumpets reveals that Jesus is ministering in the heavenly sanctuary while the seven angels stood before God and watching the judgment. (Rev. 8:2-5). After Jesus cast ashes of the golden altar, the seven angels prepare to sound, which means they change their actions subsequently to blast the trumpets. These angels are the ones who observed the judgment of God. “A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.” Dan. 7:10

The entire of the seven trumpets are sounding about the close of the probation. Of course, it would be no use if we attempt to plug-in the events of the seven trumpet in a timeline after the close of the probation. Nonetheless, in the spirit of prophecy God’s people realize what is coming imminently will blow the message of the seven trumpets prior to the close of the probation to wake up the church and in the same time warn the world of coming seven last plagues.

Notice that the four angels are holding the four corners of the earth for the apocalyptic sealing. There is a command that “hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees” (Rev. 7:3) and “it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads” (Rev. 9:4 – fifth trumpet).

Each of the seven trumpets talk about the things get “hurt”, which means the four angels are loosed and “hurt” of the earth, the sea, and the trees occur upon the close of the probation.

Notice also that the each of the seven plagues correlate with the seven trumpets, which indicate that the seven trumpets are the warnings of the coming last seven plagues.
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#173088 - 05/07/15 01:53 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
Karen Y Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

Do you have any thoughts on the seven thunders? They come in at the sixth trumpet just before the Two Witnesses but I think that, like the Two Witnesses, the thunders may span much of the trumpets. Again, any thoughts?


The parenthetical portion that comes in between the 6th and 7th trumpets is an evidence of divine order, which is similar parentheses in the 6th and 7th seals and the 6th and 7th vials.

In the tenth chapter we find that the Lord is preparing His people for the restoration of Sabbath truth and understanding of the sanctuary above prior to unfold the great mystery; the seven thunders.

The mighty Angel "cried as a lion roareth", which is the voice of conqueror and "when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices" (Rev. 10:3). This voice was heard when the first beast said, "come and see" as Jesus opened the first seal. The voice was "as it were the noise of thunder" (Rev. 6:1).
The first beast "was like a lion" (Rev. 4:7) that roared as the thunder to conquer the world with a message of the mystery. Apostle Paul said, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" (1 Cor. 15:51) referring to the second coming of Jesus.

The Second Coming of Jesus is the greatest mystery that was "declared to his servents the prophets" (Rev. 10:7). When the seventh trumpet begin to sound "the mystery of God should be finished" (Rev. 10:7).

There is a command that "write them not" when the seven thunder uttered. The two witnesses have a commission to prophesy first prior to the fulfillment of the mystery.

The seven thunders are like the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars in that the seven churches were upheld. The message of the second coming of Jesus was like thunder in each church period. "Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things" (Matt. 13:17) and preached the second advent of Jesus. The voice of thunder was very loud at the Millerite movement, but it was not the time for Jesus' return, instead, the Sabbath truth must be taught in the light of the heavenly sanctuary. Thus "heard a voice from heaven saying …seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not" (Rev. 10:4).
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#174009 - 06/07/15 11:51 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Karen Y Offline
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Many do not read and study the book of Revelation for themselves. If we read the book at one sitting with outlines in view, we may understand the prophecy book much easier and will grasp the flow of the storylines better in depth each time.

The book of Revelation starts with the introduction (Chap. 1) saying, "the revelation of Jesus Christ".

Jesus speaks to His church on earth. He tells the seven churches (Chap. 2-3) that they must become the overcomers and be purified. Anyone who has an ear to hear will be strengthened to overcome the world.

Jesus promised the saints that they would be granted to sit on the throne of God if they overcome (Rev. 3:21). Next, He unfolds the vision of the throne room (Chap. 4-5).
Round about the throne, there are the four beasts, and 24 Elders, and the host of angels, and the universal beings which comprised of the five groups of the heavenly counsel. They are intensely involved of the salvation of the mankind.

Jesus is worthy to unseal the book that was sealed with the seven seals (Rev. 6). The unfolding of the seven seals usher into "the great day of his wrath" and question arise, "who shall be able to stand?"

In unfolding the drama, there is an interlude or a pause to explain that God has his sealed saints even in the midst of the turmoil of the unsealing of the seven seals. They are the multitudes and the 144K. One is of resurrected saints and of the alive ones at the second coming of Jesus. 1 Thess. 4:16-17.

As the seventh seal broke in the Chap. 8:1, the heaven becomes silenced in their awe because the mankind stubbornly refuses to repent and the terrible judgment of the seven plagues is about to fall upon the earth.

Here is a supplemental vision again to assure the saints of God that Jesus is interceding for the saints in the heavenly sanctuary until the last message of mercy goes out in the seven trumpets.

The subject of the seven trumpets (Chap. 8-11) is that the probation is going to be close very soon and the seven literal plagues are going to fall. While the message of the seven trumpets goes out, there is another pause in Chap. 10-11:14. In the chapters the restoration of the Sabbath issue has to be addressed to the world before this world becomes the kingdom of God. The seventh trumpet is an announcement so as all the other trumpets.

The Chap. 12-14 is another supplemental visions to reveal the identity of the Satan.

The Chap. 15-16 is the seven last plagues that are literal events.

The Chap. 17-18 is also supplemental visions to unfold about the collapse of the Antichrist power.

Chap. 19 is second coming of Jesus.

Chap. 20 is about the millennium.

Chap. 21 is New Jerusalem.

Chap. 22 is conclusion of the book of Revelation.

Keep these outlines in mind as you read the book of Revelation for yourself. I trust that you will have easier understanding of the book of Revelation.
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#174370 - 06/18/15 03:34 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Karen Y Offline
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Does Sunday law causes the seven last plagues to fall or the Sunday law decrees because of the seven last plagues?

Do we see any shadows of the last seven plagues nowadays that are falling?

SOP seems to say, in order to stop the plague the decree went out.

Quote:
I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus’ work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. These plagues enraged the wicked against the righteous; they thought that we had brought the judgments of God upon them, and that if they could rid the earth of us, the plagues would then be stayed. A decree went forth to slay the saints, which caused them to cry day and night for deliverance. This was the time of Jacob’s trouble.” EW 36.2


If the name of God is blasphemed which is in the Sabbath commandment (the fourth) it is logical to think that the wicked receive the fourth plague. The sun will scorch them with a great heat by the plague. Their hearts are so much hardened that they still will not repent their deeds of violating the fourth commandment of the Sabbath and they remain defiant to God.

The saints of God will have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble. The wicked will trouble them because they hate the seal of God (Sabbath).
Quote:
EW pg.33 "And at the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully."


Jacob's heritage is Sabbath. The issue of the Jacob's trouble is Sabbath.

Quote:
Isa. 58:13, 14 "If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it"


God has commanded the evil force not to hurt the people who has the seal of God.
Quote:
Rev. 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
But the wicked continued to blaspheme the name of God and earned their way for the reward of the fourth plague that poured upon the sun with the great heat.

It is time for us to make a certain sound that the Sabbath of the LORD is the seventh day (Saturday) of the week not Sunday which is the first day of the week!


Edited by Karen Y (06/18/15 03:39 PM)
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#174375 - 06/18/15 09:07 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
Mark Shipowick Offline
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Keep up the good work Karen. It's time to share the message.
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MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!

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