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Celebration Church #33956
04/10/04 02:31 PM
04/10/04 02:31 PM
debbie  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
Celebration churches seem to be growing in North America. What are some of the characteristics of a "celebration" church? What gives you a clue that the church you are visiting or attend might be headed in the direction of celebration?

I'll list one thing that our church did that sent off a warning bell. We started singing between SS and Church services. Normally that wouldn't bother me because by itself, it is perfectly fine. But I knew it was one of the things the celebration church did and I knew it was one step down that road.

Our church began to sing contemporary music, some of it highly syncopated. The words to the music was on the screen with a projector in use.

To me this was one step towards celebrationism.

Re: Celebration Church #33957
04/10/04 09:18 PM
04/10/04 09:18 PM
John H.  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,150
North Carolina, USA
Our church has that too now, though the young women who lead out still mix it in with traditional hymns. And the singing still is accompanied by piano and organ only. If someone tries to introduce bass and drums, we'll have a problem here....and that's not just myself talking; several members here have said that.

I don't really have a big problem with the music as it's now done, though I do notice that the lyrics to the contemporary songs are pretty simple and repetitious, when compared to the lyrics in the standard old hymns. When singing something like "There's Power in the Blood", it feels like we're really *saying something*. When singing some of these newer tunes, it feels like singing a romance novel sometimes -- simplistic, sentimental, not much of real substance to it.

Another thing I've noticed is lowered dress standards. Years ago *all* the men had on coats and ties. Now I see more and more people showing up in plain ol' street clothes...blue jeans, deck shoes, flannel shirts, etc. "Come as you are." That's one thing Rick Warren and his "Purpose Driven" stuff encourages. More women are wearing high heels, short skirts, makeup, jewelry too. I saw a 6-year-old little girl with a mini-skirt the other week.

Do these things go together with celebration-style worship? I think they do.

Re: Celebration Church #33958
04/10/04 09:30 PM
04/10/04 09:30 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
The sure sign of something being wrong, or going wrong, is when a lowering of our standards accompanies it.

This, sad to say, is also happening in way too many of our churches, both non-SDA and SDA churches alike.

In our Sabbath School discussion this morning, the subject of dress came up in relation to who we have come to worship. It seems we have lost the awe towards the one and only true God before whom we have come befoe to worship. This thought came out in the discussion of Isaiah 6:1-3 which says, "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory."

Re: Celebration Church #33959
04/10/04 11:30 PM
04/10/04 11:30 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Celebrationism you say. Lets see the signs so far, singing between SS and church service, using a projector to get the words to the people, singing newly written songs, young women leading the singing, possibly using other instruments than piano and organ, shorter texts to the songs than in the old hymns, all males not wearing suit and tie to church. Could someone please tell me where the problem starts?
How many of these do you need to get a celebration church? The one I grew up in always had singing between SS and church service. And it was always the convergation that was to choose what to sing. But as the church had no young wimen who could lead it, older ones did. They also used piano and the old hymns. So it got one wrong and three right, I guess its a pass. To leave sarcasms, it is obviously assumed that celebration churches which seem to be described as churches that sing alot with more than one instrument playing and singing of Gods love and grace without telling a story with the song are, if not evil so at least deluded. I would simply want to add one question. WHY?

/Thomas

Re: Celebration Church #33960
04/11/04 12:39 AM
04/11/04 12:39 AM
Daryl  Offline

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23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
I am more interested in the results of an activity or format than the activity or the format itself, as long as the activity or format doesn't go against the Word and/or the SOP, which are in harmony with each other.

If it brings us closer to God along with the corresponding fruit of the Spirit, then it must be OK, otherwise........

Re: Celebration Church #33961
04/11/04 02:22 AM
04/11/04 02:22 AM
Will  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
In The Great Controversy there is a chapter on Modern Revivals, and it explains what we are seeing entering the church.

Specifically the area of rock music as a form of worship. When someone is questioned with that the excuse is "It is to glorify God".. I know of a lot of things I can do and say it's to the Glory of God.

Yet when did we have to become like the world by mixing the Holy and the profane for an increased membership?

I have read that in many countries there are different celebration styles.. Well that's great if you are in Kenya, or the reunions islands, but we are here in North America so we should remember who we are worshipping on the Sabbath, and that it is a Holy & blessed day.

God Bless,
Will

Re: Celebration Church #33962
04/11/04 07:00 PM
04/11/04 07:00 PM
debbie  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
Yesterday we visited another church out of town and while in the small lesson study, a visiting GC man (who was the speaker) was visiting along with his wife.

When these verses Daryl mentioned in Isaiah 6 came up, the wife of the GC man (liberal people) exclaimed since the angels said "Holy, Holy, Holy" that they were NOT quiet in worshiping God and that WHATEVER you do in church was okay as long as you are worshiping God with the right "spirit" etc. I was SHOCKED at her words!! She emphasized over and over that the angels were NOT quiet but noisy.

I decided she would fit right in, in a penticostal church. She was saying that it was okay to have a celebration church style of worship. And of course several people were saying "amen" to her words.

Re: Celebration Church #33963
04/11/04 07:08 PM
04/11/04 07:08 PM
debbie  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
John, our church also started out with hymns as well as contemporary music but it wasn't long and the hymns were stopped completely. The contemporary music they liked better.

Another clue to a celebration church was that the youth leaders began serving donuts and cocoa to the kids. They claimed some came to church without eating breakfast and so needed the nourishment.

Well, I guess I haven't seen any dry up and blow away from missing one meal yet. And their minds would be clearer to understanding truth better anyway. I know of many adults who skip Sabbath morning breakfast just so their minds will be sharper to receive a blessing from the services.

The youth leader went so far as to bring her cup of cocoa into the Sanctuary while the contemporary music was being sung between SS and Church services. My next objection to this was: how could we teach the health message while feeding these kids sweet donuts and cocoa? They were being fed stuff that would actually CLOUD up their minds...which is just what satan wants.

Fortunately the youth saw through this one and they basically stopped coming to this church and the whole youth room dried up. There is a big fight among church members going on right now and the youth leaders are making some parents unhappy and so they won't let their kids go into the youth room, when they are the age to move into that room. So it has died up.

Re: Celebration Church #33964
04/11/04 07:38 PM
04/11/04 07:38 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Then what happened there resulting in division instead of unity, and lack of the fruit of the Spirit, clearly tells us something.

Doing things that are disrespectful to the Lord in His sanctuary results in division and strife.

Bringing food into the sanctuary is a sign of disrespect, is it not? And unhealthy food at that! Fellowship dinners, etc. are reserved for eating food, not the worship service, or even Sabbath School.

Regarding the angels saying "Holy, holy, holy..." Do you think they were saying this noisily?

quote:

Isaiah 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Sounds like one was saying this to the other one, and the other one was saying this in return, something like a town crier might do. That didn't sound like noise to me. This was done in an orderly and joyful fashion. WE can be joyful without being noisy in the process. When I think of noise, I think of something being said with a lot of undistinguishable voices to the point that you don't know what is actually being said.

Re: Celebration Church #33965
04/11/04 10:36 PM
04/11/04 10:36 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
noise = a sound, esp when it is loud or unpleasant or disturbs or worries one; [ oxford dictionary ]

Four possible characteristics to the word. If the person meant it in any of the three last ways it indeed is reason to worry, but it was probably in the first way. There are several different ways one could view loud worship. You guys probably are thinking of something like using lots of instruments with the sole puropose of creating as much loud sound as possible. However, it could also be the difference between one person singing (silent) compared to a 100 person choir singing (loud), a person using a microphone (loud) compared to not using it (silent) etc. Thinking of the old symphonies, the great moments come when silent and loud is contrasted to eachother, if they would be entierly made in whisper or flourish strength they wouldnt be as great as they are when one follows the next. This said, overpowering the rest of the music with one particular instrument, be it drumms or the organ usually takes away rather than add to the total IMO.

But it seems celebration churches arent about music, since clothes and food are clues to it.

((Cocoa and doughnuts for breakfast? [Eek!] [Frown] bread with vegetables would have been more like breakfast... ))

Seems as if the result of the food/song fight have been that the youth no longer comes to the church. I bet it wont be too long before members start to beg them to return and mourn the day they left. The question is if the issues mentioned this far as being the characteristics of celebration churches are important enough to fight over and leave people disillusioned and turning their back on the church. What if on the day of judgement the books read out names of people lost becourse of (James 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?). Perhaps its the other way around, but in that case, one better be 110% sure of it.

/Thomas

Re: Celebration Church #33966
04/11/04 10:43 PM
04/11/04 10:43 PM
John H.  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,150
North Carolina, USA
Doughnuts and cocoa for kids in church? Somebody sure wasn't wearing their thinking cap.

We've known for years that *sugar* can raise a child's hyperactivity level, right? Feeding them doughnuts and cocoa in church is just begging for trouble. Kids running up and down the hallways, fidgeting (more than usual) during church service etc. Expecting them to behave, while feeding them a sugar rush almost guaranteed to produce misbehavior. [Frown]

Re: Celebration Church #33967
04/13/04 03:33 AM
04/13/04 03:33 AM
debbie  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
One reason I am posting these characteristics of the celebration church is for people to understand and take warning because some of the things they do are just fine, but many are not, like the cocoa and donuts in the Sanctuary and Youth rooms.

One of the things the celebration church also does is lots of good works. I really like the idea of a deacon coming out to the cars when it is raining out with big umbrella's to help people get into the sanctuary without getting drenched. That is something they do that I think all churches could do. I believe it is very kind of the deacons to do this type of thing.

Does anyone know of any other characteristics of a celebration church?

Re: Celebration Church #33968
04/12/04 08:16 PM
04/12/04 08:16 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
We have been discussing the steps towards becoming a Celebration Church.

What are all of the steps resulting in becoming a Celebration Church?

Re: Celebration Church #33969
04/12/04 08:54 PM
04/12/04 08:54 PM
T
Tom Wetmore  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 759
Silver Spring, MD, USA
Cocoa and donuts as a characteristic of a "Celebration Church"?!?! Unhealthy and ill- advised, but a characteristic of "celebration" worship? Is that an essential part of their celebration?

Incidently, I believe that "celebration" as worship buzzword is out of vogue. More frequently now you see "Contemporary" as the term to describe more modern forms of worship.

Tom
[Confused]

Re: Celebration Church #33970
04/12/04 09:01 PM
04/12/04 09:01 PM
Will  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
I noticed that the word "Celebration Styles" describes a series of things (not sure what they all consist of) that are done at church.
Anyways just wanted to pitch in something [Big Grin]
God Bless,
Will

Re: Celebration Church #33971
04/12/04 09:13 PM
04/12/04 09:13 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Has the word celebration been replaced with the word contemporary?

If so, then is there a difference between the two words, or do both words mean the same thing?

Re: Celebration Church #33972
04/13/04 05:09 AM
04/13/04 05:09 AM
debbie  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
To answer Tom's concerns; I've seen exactly what a celebration church is. And yes, the donuts and cocoa is definitely a characteristic of it. However, each church might offer other things. I've heard of coffee and donuts, coffee and cookes offered after church is out or between church and SS. And also muffins and cocoa. I don't think the specific food matters but that it came on board WITH the celebration church method of worship.

You can call it other names, I'm sure they will fit but I prefer "celebration." Now the Conference uses other terms since celebration has become such a "bad" word...like "festival" and I suppose "contemporary" or whatever. To me they all mean the same thing.

Re: Celebration Church #33973
04/13/04 05:13 AM
04/13/04 05:13 AM
debbie  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
Another thing I've seen in connection with the celebration church is waving the hand up in the air or sticking the hands up high and waving them back and forth while singing or praying.

I'm not familiar with the Pentecostal church but I believe this comes from their church. I've not seen everyone doing this in the celebration church but if the person in charge up front asks people to put their hands up, most will.

I'm not sure what to think about this one. I know the Bible speaks about praying with the hands upward to God. But I also know that the Pentecostal church does this to "get into the spirit" - does anyone know more about this?

Re: Celebration Church #33974
04/14/04 03:26 AM
04/14/04 03:26 AM
T
Tom Wetmore  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 759
Silver Spring, MD, USA
It strikes me that much of what is being suggested here as characteristics and indications of "celebration", contemporary or whatever modern and nontraditional worship is the intended target are rather superfical and not all that unique to such worship styles or all that new even.

I currently am a member of a fairly conservative church that has a very traditional worship style and service and all of the previous churches of which I have been a member also had traditional worship styles. I have also visited churches with a contemporary worship style to one degree or another. In my experience, I have seen all of the things mentioned above. I have seen the cocoa and donuts routine, and its variations, in very traditional churches that wouldn't dream of having a modern worship style. Providing for and pausing for refreshment is simply a common social and cultural convention and courtesy in a wide variety of contexts beyond religious. If anything this would be an import from other very traditonal Sunday keeping churches which for years have very often serve coffee and tea and socialize a bit before services. That alone would make it suspect in some folks' minds, but seems not to be really anything more than a rather superfical element when it comes to worship even if it could be considered a part of or associated with worship. Rather significantly in the context of the current discussion, neither of the two churches in this area with contemporary worship sevices that I have visted a number of times do the refreshment break at all.

I would say that the terminology tends to fall in the same category. A previous church of which I was a member for years dating back decades ago had a "festival of praise" service at Thanksgiving time. The "praise" that was offered was in the form of bags of groceries that everyone brought as offerings to the front of the church which ended up being a rather large mountain of food covering the platform. At the end of the service the food was sorted, bagged up and delivered to designated families that Sabbath afternoon, often on the way home before we would go home to eat our own Sabbath lunch. So "festival" is descriptive of many things many of which ahve nothing to do with contemporary worship styles.

A vigorous song service at the begining of church is as old as the hills and certainly predates the Adventist denomination. James White was known to come striding down the aisle at the begining of a service singing in a loud rich voice, audibly marking the tempo of the music by striking a book in one hand with his other hand and leading out in a rousing song service. The idea of praise services to open church is hardly new or modern.

The idea of raising hands in prayer and praise appears to have been common practice in Biblical times. David speaks of it in Psalms 63:4, "I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands." (See also Psalms 28:2, 134:2, 141:2, Lamantations 2:19 and 3:14.) Solomon raised his outstretched hands toward heaven in prayer as noted in 1 Kings 8:54 and Ezra and all the people raised their hands in prayer as recorded in Nehemiah 8:6. In the New Testament Jesus is reported to have raised His hands to bless people and Paul definitely encourages the practice in 1 Timothy 2:8, "I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing." I think it dangerous to be supicious of or critical of any revival, by individuals or groups of this ancient Biblical practice regardless of the worship style in which it occurs as this cuts across worship styles. Just because the Penecostals tend to do this should not be a deciding factor. They also stand and kneel in prayer.

Tom

Re: Celebration Church #33975
04/14/04 10:41 AM
04/14/04 10:41 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
quote:
It is a dangerous thing for men to resist the Spirit of truth and grace and righteousness, because its manifestations are not according to their ideas, and have not come in the line of their methodical plans. The Lord works in his own way, and according to his own devising. Let men pray that they may be divested of self, and may be in harmony with heaven. Let them pray, "Not my will, but thine, O God, be done." Let men bear in mind that God's ways are not their ways, nor his thoughts their thoughts; for he says, "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." In the instruction that the Lord gave Gideon when he was about to fight with the Midianites,--that he should go out against his foes with an army of three hundred blowing trumpets, and carrying empty pitchers in their hands, and shouting, "The sword of the Lord, and of Gideon,--these precise, methodical, formal men would see nothing but inconsistency and confusion. They would start back with determined protest and resistance. They would have held long controversies to show the inconsistency and the dangers that would accompany the carrying on of the warfare in such an extreme way, and in their finite judgment they would pronounce all such movements as utterly ridiculous and unreasonable. How unscientific, how inconsistent, would they have thought the movements of Joshua and his army at the taking of Jericho! "Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in. And the Lord said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valor. And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days. And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets. And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him." Where were the scientific methods in this manner of warfare?
(Concluded next week.)
-
{RH, May 5, 1896 par. 7}

[Big Grin] [Reading]

Re: Celebration Church #33976
04/14/04 01:36 PM
04/14/04 01:36 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
When God gives instructions through His prophets, you follow them.

Much closer to our time, God has given us instructions, and we should also follow them.

With this in mind, therefore, what instructions has God given us about this through Ellen G. White?

Re: Celebration Church #33977
04/15/04 03:58 AM
04/15/04 03:58 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
I acctually found a writing of EW that describes both how too many SDA churches today are and how they are supposed to be. This speaks for itself...

/Thomas

quote:
It Calls for a Joyful Praise

Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Phil. 4:4.
Pray, pray earnestly and without ceasing, but do not forget to praise. It becomes every child of God to vindicate His character. You can magnify the Lord; you can show the power of sustaining grace. There are multitudes who do not appreciate the great love of God nor the divine compassion of Jesus. Thousands even regard with disdain the matchless grace shown in the plan of redemption. All who are partakers of this great salvation are not clear in this matter. They do not cultivate grateful hearts. But the theme of redemption is one that the angels desire to look into; it will be the science and the song of the ransomed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. Is it not worthy of careful thought and study now? Should we not praise God with heart and soul and voice "for His wonderful works to the children of men" (Ps. 107:8)? {YRP 334.1}
Praise the Lord in the congregation of His people. When the word of the Lord was spoken to the Hebrews anciently, the command was: "And let all the people say, Amen" (Ps. 106:48). When the ark of the covenant was brought into the city of David, and a psalm of joy and triumph was chanted, "all the people said, Amen, and praised the Lord" (1 Chron. 16:36). This fervent response was an evidence that they understood the word spoken and joined in the worship of God. {YRP 334.2}
There is too much formality in our religious services. The Lord would have His ministers who preach the Word energized by His Holy Spirit; and the people who hear should not sit in drowsy indifference, or stare vacantly about, making no responses to what is said. The impression that is thus given to the unbeliever is anything but favorable for the religion of Christ. These dull, careless professed Christians are not destitute of ambition and zeal when engaged in worldly business; but things of eternal importance do not move them deeply. The voice of God through His messengers may be a pleasant song; but its sacred warnings, reproofs, and encouragements are all unheeded. The Spirit of the world has paralyzed them. The truths of God's Word are spoken to leaden ears and hard, unimpressible hearts. There should be wide-awake, active churches to encourage and uphold the ministers of Christ and to aid them in the work of saving souls. Where the church is walking in the light, there will ever be cheerful, hearty responses and words of joyful praise.--Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 317, 318. {YRP 334.3}
334


Re: Celebration Church #33978
04/14/04 11:23 PM
04/14/04 11:23 PM
L
Lobo  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 658
SW Washington State
What is morally wrong with having a celebration “style” worship service?

Well to be honest, we need to make a distinction here; we are not referring to worship, we are referring to PRAISE. Worship and praise are two different things.

Worship is how we show our adoration and love for God. It is usually done in a very solemn and thoughtful manner.

Praise is how we express our joy about God and what he has done for us.

It seems that SDA’s clearly understand worship, but have a poor understanding of praise. However, EGW understood both.

There are historical documents regarding the early SDA church services and they were anything but tame. In fact, many times neighbors who lived by the church or home that the meeting was being held would contact the police because of the noise.

The early SDA church was very much charismatic in relation to praise and was not afraid to shout, jump, dance, and sign praises to God. That is what happens when the spirit is alive and well in a praise service.

I’m not sure how those very expressive meetings became to be what is seen now in most SDA churches. But that is not how the movement started, and what the "celebration movement" is an attempting to bring back.


It seems that many have issues with the musical style involved in the celebration or praise services, but that is a human or personal issue of preference and not a moral issue.

The fact is that the early church took popular songs of their day and made them into songs of praise for God. They took the melodies and added Christian lyrics. We sing these same songs today, almost 200 years later and act as if they are more holy than contemporary music. This idea was false in the 1800’s and is false today.

It is even humorous how we hold up those old songs as being holy when some of the melodies were actually taken from songs that were song in bars and other gaming type establishments.

Music is a vehicle to reach one's heart. God knows this and that is why he invented it, to reach our hearts. The problem is that not all musical style reaches all people. So a song from the 1800’s may reach some one who likes that kind of music and can relate to it, but it will not reach those who don’t relate to it. The fact is that most people respond to music that they grew up with. Music that holds emotional significance.

The early SDA church knew this and that is why they put Christian lyrics to popular songs of their day – so people could relate. Somehow we have lost that lesson.


In any case, the music used for praise should be one that reaches your heart, makes you feel deeply and convicted. And if that 200 year old melody is not doing that, then you need to go where you can hear the kind of music that reaches your heart.

Re: Celebration Church #33979
04/15/04 03:38 AM
04/15/04 03:38 AM
debbie  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
Thomas, who says that just because we Praise the Lord with beautiful hymns we are being DULL or BORING or in "drowsy indifference" ?

I agree totally with your EGW quotes. I have said it previously and will say it again. The church service is NOT to be like a funeral, formal or dry. It is to be vibrant and happy with praise to the Lord. It can be done with the beautiful hymns. BUT the Lord will not be pleased with music that is noisy and with worldly sounds to it. If you don't believe me, read 2 SM p. 36 again.

Lobo, I completely disagree with you about the church in Ellen White's day. Do you have any references to back up what you seem to know? Please give us the name and page number of the "historical documents" where you got your information.

God is not to be trifled with. He has outlined what He expects in his Sanctuary. He is a HOLY God and we are sinful beings. How dare we think that we can be noisy, "shout, jump and dance" in church and please God. Those who believe this are deluded by the devil. We are told that satan will deceive the "very elect" through the senses: tasting/touching/hearing/seeing/smelling. The only sure thing we can go by when our senses tell us differently is the WORD OF GOD and the SOP.

You better study this out again because you are wrong.

Re: Celebration Church #33980
04/15/04 08:00 AM
04/15/04 08:00 AM
Will  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
Actually there is no such indication nor is there any evidence that it is the Holy Spirit that will make you want to jump, dance, shout and all sorts of irreverant acitivities in a church. Sister White tells us the following:

quote:

Popular revivals are too often carried by appeals to the imagination, by exciting the emotions, by gratifying the love for what is new and startling. Converts thus gained have little desire to listen to Bible truth, little interest in the testimony of prophets and apostles. Unless a religious service has something of a sensational character, it has no attractions for them. A message which appeals to unimpassioned reason, awakens no response. The plain warnings of God's Word, relating directly to their eternal interests, are unheeded. {GC88 463.2}

quote:

In many of the revivals which have occurred during the last half century, the same influences have been at work, to a greater or less degree, that will be manifest in the more extensive movements of the future. There is an emotional excitement, a mingling of the true with the false, that is well adapted to mislead. Yet none need be deceived. In the light of God's Word it is not difficult to determine the nature of these movements. Wherever men neglect the testimony of the Bible, turning away from those plain, soul-testing truths which require self-denial and renunciation of the world, there we may be sure that God's blessing is not bestowed. And by the rule which Christ himself has given, "Ye shall know them by their fruits," [MATT. 7:16.] it is evident that these movements are not the work of the Spirit of God.{GC88 464.2}

Cut out the shows at church and you will find those who have an earnest desire to worship God in Truth and in Spirit.

God Bless,
Will

Re: Celebration Church #33981
04/15/04 08:10 AM
04/15/04 08:10 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Debbie, No thats not what I am saying, what I am saying is that too many churches are NOT praising the Lord with the hymns they sing. Of course there are other churches that are praising the Lord with hymns and yet others who are praising the Lord with songs that arent hymns.
Another question I have is, does "dancing" in praise to the Lord seem about as foolish as attacking an enemy army camp with trumpets and clay pots or like laying siege to a well fortified city by walking around it singing?

/Thomas

Hos 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Am 5: 21 "I hate, I despise your religious feasts;
I cannot stand your assemblies.
22 Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings,
I will have no regard for them.
23 Away with the noise of your songs!
I will not listen to the music of your harps.
24 But let justice roll on like a river,
righteousness like a never-failing stream!

Psalm 150
1 Praise the LORD .

Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD .

Praise the LORD .

Psalm 149
1 Praise the LORD .

Sing to the LORD a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the saints.

2 Let Israel rejoice in their Maker;
let the people of Zion be glad in their King.
3 Let them praise his name with dancing
and make music to him with tambourine and harp.
4 For the LORD takes delight in his people;
he crowns the humble with salvation.
5 Let the saints rejoice in this honor
and sing for joy on their beds.

Re: Celebration Church #33982
04/15/04 12:36 PM
04/15/04 12:36 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Yes, Lobo, I, like Debbie, also want to see the documentation to back up what you said.

And Thomas,

quote:

Psalm 150:4 praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute,

I think we need to know what type of dancing the Bible was referring to back then, therefore, let us see if we can find out anything about that somewhere.

Re: Celebration Church #33983
04/16/04 03:54 AM
04/16/04 03:54 AM
T
Tom Wetmore  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 759
Silver Spring, MD, USA
Daryl,

Let's face it. No matter how anyone tries to define or describe dance as it is used in scripture someone will have a problem with it still. Among those voicing opposition to contemporary worship there always seems to be someone who reacts very strongly against any physical response to music (or any music that encourages or prompts it), particularly of a rhythmic nature, be it foot movement, toe tapping, hand clapping, gestures, raising or waiving hands, swaying, bobbing ones head or especially bodily movement that would actually result in the incorporation of any compination of these, all of which by defintion would be dancing.

My dictionary defines dance as "To move rhythmically, usu. to music, using prescribed or improvised steps and gestures...To leap or skip about excitedly...To bob up and down... To perform..." I don't think the many scriptural references to dance and dancing are at all inconsistent with that definition, nor is there any real ambiguity in what is meant in Scripture, except in the minds of those uncomfortable with any physical response to music. Some people are genuinely uncomfortable and very self-conscious with any excitement, emotional response or physical response to music, religious or otherwise. However, that does not make it a moral issue as some seem inclined to do by slapping a label of "sinful" "of the devil" or any similar inflammatory and pejorative term.

Tom

Re: Celebration Church #33984
04/15/04 05:40 PM
04/15/04 05:40 PM
L
Lobo  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 658
SW Washington State
Ok Daryl and Debbie,

Here is what I was referring to:

Ellen attended one meeting where the volume of the service was so great that the local sheriff arrived to arrest the meeting leader for disturbing the peace, see (Spiritual Gifts vol 2 pages 40-41). Yet Ellen stated about this very service that "the power of God" was there (Spiritual Gifts vol 2 page 40).


Here are few quotes from EGW and how she feels worship services should be conducted:

"I saw, that singing to the glory of God often drove away the enemy, and shouting would beat him back and give us the victory" (Letter 8a, 1850).

Ellen White opposed formal worship services as you all on this forum are advocating. She wrote: "The evil of formal worship cannot be too strongly depicted" (Testimonies vol 9 page 143).


She stated; "It is the duty of those connected with the church to feel an individual responsibility to... make the meetings so interesting that outsiders or unbelievers will be attracted to your meetings" (EGW Manuscript 13, 1885 -- Manuscript Releases vol 3 page 1).


She stated; "I saw there was great necessity of more energy being manifested by the commandment keepers in their meetings" (EGW Manuscript 3, 1853 -- Manuscript Releases vol 5 page 424).

In the book Historical Sketches of the Foreign Missions, Ellen White writes favourably about using guitars in church (page 195). She even requested guitar playing before one of her meetings.


So the FACTS are that EGW liked energetic worship services that were loud, had shouting, guitars, and were interesting enough to bring in unbelievers. And yes, the cops were called because of the noise.

Re: Celebration Church #33985
04/15/04 07:07 PM
04/15/04 07:07 PM
John H.  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,150
North Carolina, USA
Yet again Lobo twists things to suit his agenda, with little regard for the truth.

quote:
Ellen attended one meeting where the volume of the service was so great that the local sheriff arrived to arrest the meeting leader for disturbing the peace, see (Spiritual Gifts vol 2 pages 40-41). Yet Ellen stated about this very service that "the power of God" was there (Spiritual Gifts vol 2 page 40).
There is absolutely nothing in the passage referenced to indicate that "the volume of the service was so great that the local sheriff arrived to arrest the meeting leader for disturbing the peace."

Let's look at more of the passage in question:

"From Exeter we went to Atkinson. One night I was shown something that I did not understand. It was to this effect, that we were to have a trial of our faith. The next day, which was the first day of the week, while I was speaking, two men looked into the window. We were satisfied of their object. They entered and rushed past me to Eld. Damman. The Spirit of the Lord rested upon him, and his strength was taken away, and he fell to the floor helpless. The officer cried out, 'In the name of the State of Maine, lay hold of this man.' Two seized his arms, and two his feet, and attempted to drag him from the room. They would move him a few inches only, and then rush out of the house. The power of God was in that room, and the servants of God with their countenances lighted up with his glory, made no resistance. The efforts to take Eld. D. were often repeated with the same effect. The men could not endure the power of God, and it was a relief to them to rush out of the house. Their number increased to twelve, still Eld. D. was held by the power of God about forty minutes, and not all the strength of those men could move him from the floor where he lay helpless. At the same moment we all felt that Eld. D. must go; that God had manifested his power for his glory, and that the name of the Lord would be further glorified in suffering him to be taken from our midst. And those men took him up as easily as they would take up a child, and carried him out.

"After Eld. D. was taken from our midst he was kept in a hotel, and guarded by a man who did not like his office. He said that Eld. D. was singing, and praying, and praising the Lord all night, so that he could not sleep, and he would not watch over such a man. No one wished the office of guarding him, and he was left to go about the village as he pleased, after promising that he would appear for trial. Kind friends invited him to share their hospitalities. At the hour of trial Eld. D. was present. A lawyer offered his services. The charge brought against Eld. D. was, that he was a disturber of the peace. Many witnesses were brought to sustain the charge, but they were at once broken down by the testimony of Eld. D.'s acquaintances present, who were called to the stand. There was much curiosity to know what Eld. D. and his friends believed, and he was asked to give them a synopsis of his faith. He then told them in a clear manner his belief from the Scriptures. It was also suggested that they sung curious hymns, and he was asked to sing one. There were quite a number of strong brethren present who had stood by him in the trial, and they joined with him in singing, 'When I was down in Egypt's land, I heard my Saviour was at hand,' &c."
{2SG 40,41}
Elder D. was indeed charged with disturbing the peace, but nowhere are we given the reason for these charges. They were trumped up. And nowhere is it said that the "peace was disturbed" due to loud volume. Lobo manufactured that idea.

Then he goes on to try and make another passage mean what it most clearly does not mean:

quote:
Ellen White opposed formal worship services as you all on this forum are advocating. She wrote: "The evil of formal worship cannot be too strongly depicted" (Testimonies vol 9 page 143).
Let's see what that quote really means:

Formality In Worship. -- "In their efforts to reach the people, the Lord's messengers are not to follow the ways of the world. In the meetings that are held, they are not to depend on worldly singers and theatrical display to awaken an interest. How can those who have no interest in the word of God, who have never read His word with a sincere desire to understand its truths, be expected to sing with the spirit and the understanding? How can their hearts be in harmony with the words of sacred song? How can the heavenly choir join in music that is only a form?

"The evil of formal worship cannot be too strongly depicted, [this is the snippet quoted by Lobo] but no words can properly set forth the deep blessedness of genuine worship. When human beings sing with the spirit and the understanding, heavenly musicians take up the strain and join in the song of thanksgiving. He who has bestowed upon us all the gifts that enable us to be workers together with God, expects His servants to cultivate their voices so that they can speak and sing in a way that all can understand. It is not loud singing that is needed, but clear intonation, correct pronunciation, and distinct utterance. Let all take time to cultivate the voice so that God's praise can be sung in clear, soft tones, not with harshness and shrillness that offend the ear. The ability to sing is the gift of God; let it be used to His glory."
{9T 143}
So we see that Lobo is taking things out of context, and trying to use them to support an argument that EGW would oppose. She doesn't use the phrase "formal worship" as he would. "Formal" as used by her means having only a form of the real thing, not the genuine article. As Paul said,

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
2 Timothy 3:5
"Formal" as advocated by the majority here is quite in keeping with God's ways, since

"God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."
1 Corinthians 14:33
Where guitars are concerned, they're fine when used properly. The ancient temple services had stringed instruments in the music section. We just need to make sure they're being used to play music God can approve, not Jimi Hendrix tunes with 'Christian' lyrics.

Re: Celebration Church #33986
04/15/04 09:59 PM
04/15/04 09:59 PM
L
Lobo  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 658
SW Washington State
quote:

Elder D. was indeed charged with disturbing the peace, but nowhere are we given the reason for these charges. They were trumped up. And nowhere is it said that the "peace was disturbed" due to loud volume. Lobo manufactured that idea.


John, if my “manufactured” idea is that the services were loud and that is why the charges of disturbing the peace were filled, you have also manufactured the idea that the charges were “trumped up”. There is not enough info to determine if the charges were correct or not or if there was any cause to file them.

But from a non-paranoid perspective, why would the police trump up charges on this guy for no reason? Why would they care? You cannot support your own manufactured idea that the charges were bogus until you come up with a motive for doing that by the police.

So the fact is that my assumption is no more manufactured than yours.


As for the other quotes, I noticed you ignored most of them. In addition, you can’t use other sources to define what EGW meant be Formality. That is clearly a feeble effort to support your view.


quote:

Where guitars are concerned, they're fine when used properly. The ancient temple services had stringed instruments in the music section. We just need to make sure they're being used to play music God can approve, not Jimi Hendrix tunes with 'Christian' lyrics.

And how do you know what God would or would not approve in the way of music? Aside from lyrics, on what basis do you determine what is good music and what is not? How can musical style be seen as anything more than individual preference?


Your self-righteous statements here demonstrate the very reason why the SDA church is loosing members in North America.

Music is a tool that can be used for God or used for the devil. Fortunately, most Christian denominations understand that and they are winning souls for God left and right because they don’t confuse their individual preferences with what others may respond to.

I personally have seen many young people come to know the lord because someone cared enough to design music they could relate to; and that contemporary music with Christian lyrics reached their hearts.

It is a beautiful thing to see when people put down their bias, judgmental, and personal feelings to minister to others on their level. God does this everyday. Yet many have not figured this out.

We need to wake up!

We have an adversary that is not bound by silly biases and manmade moral issues. The devil uses any and all means possible to win souls for his cause regardless of what he personally likes or dislikes. And since we are not willing to do the same, we are loosing young people and souls daily.

Don’t ask why young people are not in the churches anymore, because now you know why. They are in churches, just not SDA churches.

Re: Celebration Church #33987
04/16/04 12:18 AM
04/16/04 12:18 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
quote:
Originally posted by Lobo:
And how do you know what God would or would not approve in the way of music? Aside from lyrics, on what basis do you determine what is good music and what is not? How can musical style be seen as anything more than individual preference?

Your self-righteous statements here demonstrate the very reason why the SDA church is loosing members in North America.

Music is a tool that can be used for God or used for the devil. Fortunately, most Christian denominations understand that and they are winning souls for God left and right because they don’t confuse their individual preferences with what others may respond to.

I personally have seen many young people come to know the lord because someone cared enough to design music they could relate to; and that contemporary music with Christian lyrics reached their hearts.

It is a beautiful thing to see when people put down their bias, judgmental, and personal feelings to minister to others on their level. God does this everyday. Yet many have not figured this out.

We need to wake up!

We have an adversary that is not bound by silly biases and manmade moral issues. The devil uses any and all means possible to win souls for his cause regardless of what he personally likes or dislikes. And since we are not willing to do the same, we are loosing young people and souls daily.

Don’t ask why young people are not in the churches anymore, because now you know why. They are in churches, just not SDA churches.

Lobo, the answere here is quite simple, one single church cannot reach both groups. Some people can relate to Jimi Hendrix, not exclusively youth, and some can relate to other muisc styles, not exclusively old people. One should have two churches, one for each group. And the answere is NOT to change a church full of people who relate to hymns into a Jimi Hendrix style church, nor is it to turn a Jimi Hendrix style church into a hymns church. The result of such actions are obvious from testimonies and quotes already provided by others.

/Thomas

Re: Celebration Church #33988
04/16/04 01:11 AM
04/16/04 01:11 AM
debbie  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
The young people today are looking for people who live REAL lives for Jesus Christ. They are looking for those who LIVE their faith.

They do not want rock music with good words in church. They want a vibrant, happy church service where people have real relationships with the Lord and are not afraid to stand for right. They want REAL praise for God that they know will please Him because they love Him.

Re: Celebration Church [Re: debbie] #156896
10/06/13 06:55 PM
10/06/13 06:55 PM
J
Juan Jeanniton  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 24
Georgia, USA
Amen my sister!:) You have a LOT more courage than these mignard rascally COMEDIANS and their meretricious PARAMOURS in the church today who want to bring in barroom, promiscuous dance, licentious, worldly, carnal, amorous melodies and harmonies and dress them up as modern Christian hymns!

These vile crafty seducers and their fem...ews of his time:

"Orthodoxy is not that unbending, unyielding, bigoted opposition to improvement which our opponents represent it; it understands perfectly well what the spirit of the age requires; but it can yield nothing to public clamour, nor to the demands which seekers of innovations may make" that Public Worship, properly and Distinctly so-called, be ready willing and able to compromise, evade, dilute, or deny even a single one its fundamental essential distinctives in order "to accommodate itself to every phase of history. Such a religion would be none at all." - Isaac Leeser, Discourses on the Jewish Religion, Volume 9, page 90.

"Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog," and this word DOG, Hebrew Kelev, in context, means a male prostitute, "into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God." - Deuteronomy 23:18.

Oh, and just remember: LOBO in spanish for WOLF! Be warned, my sister in Christ, against these ravening gluttonous lewd lascivious WOLVES masquerading as SHEEP in order to spread their DECEITFUL and WORLDLY and LASCIVIOUS INNOVATIONS IN MUSIC INTO THE HOUSE OF GOD!

Last edited by Juan Jeanniton; 10/06/13 06:58 PM.
Re: Celebration Church [Re: John H.] #156897
10/06/13 07:05 PM
10/06/13 07:05 PM
J
Juan Jeanniton  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 24
Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: John H.
Yet again Lobo twists things to suit his agenda, with little regard for the truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ellen attended one meeting where the volume of the service was so great that the local sheriff arrived to arrest the meeting leader for disturbing the peace, see (Spiritual Gifts vol 2 pages 40-41). Yet Ellen stated about this very service that "the power of God" was there (Spiritual Gifts vol 2 page 40).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is absolutely nothing in the passage referenced to indicate that "the volume of the service was so great that the local sheriff arrived to arrest the meeting leader for disturbing the peace."

Let's look at more of the passage in question:

<blockquote>"From Exeter we went to Atkinson. One night I was shown something that I did not understand. It was to this effect, that we were to have a trial of our faith. The next day, which was the first day of the week, while I was speaking, two men looked into the window. We were satisfied of their object. They entered and rushed past me to Eld. Damman. The Spirit of the Lord rested upon him, and his strength was taken away, and he fell to the floor helpless. The officer cried out, 'In the name of the State of Maine, lay hold of this man.' Two seized his arms, and two his feet, and attempted to drag him from the room. They would move him a few inches only, and then rush out of the house. The power of God was in that room, and the servants of God with their countenances lighted up with his glory, made no resistance. The efforts to take Eld. D. were often repeated with the same effect. The men could not endure the power of God, and it was a relief to them to rush out of the house. Their number increased to twelve, still Eld. D. was held by the power of God about forty minutes, and not all the strength of those men could move him from the floor where he lay helpless. At the same moment we all felt that Eld. D. must go; that God had manifested his power for his glory, and that the name of the Lord would be further glorified in suffering him to be taken from our midst. And those men took him up as easily as they would take up a child, and carried him out.

"After Eld. D. was taken from our midst he was kept in a hotel, and guarded by a man who did not like his office. He said that Eld. D. was singing, and praying, and praising the Lord all night, so that he could not sleep, and he would not watch over such a man. No one wished the office of guarding him, and he was left to go about the village as he pleased, after promising that he would appear for trial. Kind friends invited him to share their hospitalities. At the hour of trial Eld. D. was present. A lawyer offered his services. The charge brought against Eld. D. was, that he was a disturber of the peace. Many witnesses were brought to sustain the charge, but they were at once broken down by the testimony of Eld. D.'s acquaintances present, who were called to the stand. There was much curiosity to know what Eld. D. and his friends believed, and he was asked to give them a synopsis of his faith. He then told them in a clear manner his belief from the Scriptures. It was also suggested that they sung curious hymns, and he was asked to sing one. There were quite a number of strong brethren present who had stood by him in the trial, and they joined with him in singing, 'When I was down in Egypt's land, I heard my Saviour was at hand,' &c."
{2SG 40,41}</blockquote>Elder D. was indeed charged with disturbing the peace, but nowhere are we given the reason for these charges. They were trumped up. And nowhere is it said that the "peace was disturbed" due to loud volume. Lobo manufactured that idea.

Then he goes on to try and make another passage mean what it most clearly does not mean:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ellen White opposed formal worship services as you all on this forum are advocating. She wrote: "The evil of formal worship cannot be too strongly depicted" (Testimonies vol 9 page 143).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Let's see what that quote really means:

<blockquote>Formality In Worship. -- "In their efforts to reach the people, the Lord's messengers are not to follow the ways of the world. In the meetings that are held, they are not to depend on worldly singers and theatrical display to awaken an interest. How can those who have no interest in the word of God, who have never read His word with a sincere desire to understand its truths, be expected to sing with the spirit and the understanding? How can their hearts be in harmony with the words of sacred song? How can the heavenly choir join in music that is only a form?

"The evil of formal worship cannot be too strongly depicted, [this is the snippet quoted by Lobo] but no words can properly set forth the deep blessedness of genuine worship. When human beings sing with the spirit and the understanding, heavenly musicians take up the strain and join in the song of thanksgiving. He who has bestowed upon us all the gifts that enable us to be workers together with God, expects His servants to cultivate their voices so that they can speak and sing in a way that all can understand. It is not loud singing that is needed, but clear intonation, correct pronunciation, and distinct utterance. Let all take time to cultivate the voice so that God's praise can be sung in clear, soft tones, not with harshness and shrillness that offend the ear. The ability to sing is the gift of God; let it be used to His glory."
{9T 143}</blockquote>So we see that Lobo is taking things out of context, and trying to use them to support an argument that EGW would oppose. She doesn't use the phrase "formal worship" as he would. "Formal" as used by her means having only a form of the real thing, not the genuine article. As Paul said,

<blockquote>"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
2 Timothy 3:5</blockquote>"Formal" as advocated by the majority here is quite in keeping with God's ways, since

<blockquote>"God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."
1 Corinthians 14:33</blockquote>Where guitars are concerned, they're fine when used properly. The ancient temple services had stringed instruments in the music section. We just need to make sure they're being used to play music God can approve, not Jimi Hendrix tunes with 'Christian' lyrics.


Amen my Brother! For LOBO is just another spanish word for WOLF! Jesus said beware of those who masquerade as SHEEP but inwardly and intrinsically there are ravening scoundrelly dishonorable WOLVES, not sparing the flock!

And you have rightfully noticed that LOBO has so far taken verses and passages out of their proper CONTEXT, just like all HERETICS and FANATICS do!

Re: Celebration Church [Re: vastergotland] #157064
10/11/13 02:37 PM
10/11/13 02:37 PM
J
Juan Jeanniton  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 24
Georgia, USA
So far, I have warned people repeatedly to beware of the things that lobo has said in favor of borrowing the world's DISTINCTIVE and DETERMINATIVE and DEFINITIVE style of music into the hymnody and psalmody of the Church. You all ought to know - LOBO is just the Spanish word for WOLF!

Beware of those who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves!

If the GOATS were judged severely for NEGLECTING the corporal and spiritual works of mercy [Feed the Hungry, Give the Thirsty whereof to drink, Clothe the Naked, Visit the Sick and in Prison, Shelter the Alien and the Stranger, Vindicate and Plead the Righteous Cause of the Widow and the Orphan] Christ Jesus praised the sheep for doing dilligently, then think about this: Is it not therefore just and right for a more severe judgment to fall upon those ravening WOLVES who lead the SHEEP astray and DEVOUR them, yea, and TEACH them to trangress and profane God's Sacred Name?

Re: Celebration Church [Re: Juan Jeanniton] #158361
11/16/13 01:51 AM
11/16/13 01:51 AM
J
Juan Jeanniton  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 24
Georgia, USA
One month ago, I warned all of you about the dangerous innovations that lobo had promoted in Church Music, making them sound more worldly and less distinctively sacred.

Quote:
6. The Lure of Worldly Music

No Frivolous Waltz or Flippant Song in the Schools of the Prophets. --The art of sacred melody was diligently cultivated. [In the schools of the prophets.] NO FRIVOLOUS WALTZ was heard, nor flippant song that should extol man and divert the attention from God; but sacred, solemn psalms of praise to the Creator, exalting His name and recounting His wondrous works. -- Fundamentals of Christian Education, p. 97.

When Satan Takes Charge. --There has been a class of social gatherings in _____ of an entirely different character, parties of pleasure that have been a disgrace to our institutions and to the church. They encourage pride of dress, pride of appearance, self-gratification, hilarity and trifling. Satan is entertained as an honored guest, and takes possession of those who patronize these gatherings.

A view of one such company was presented to me, where were assembled those who profess to believe the truth. One was seated at the instrument of music, and such songs were poured forth as made the watching angels weep. There was mirth, there was coarse laughter, there was abundance of enthusiasm, and a kind of inspiration; but the joy was such as Satan only is able to create. This is an enthusiasm and infatuation of which all who love God will be ashamed. It prepares the participants for unholy thought and action. I have reason to think that some who were engaged in that scene heartily repented of the shameful performance. --Counsels to Teachers, p. 339. (Emphasis Supplied.)

Music Put to a Wrong Use. --I feel alarmed as I witness everywhere the frivolity of young men and young women who profess to believe the truth. God does not seem to be in their thoughts. Their minds are filled with nonsense. Their conversation is only empty, vain talk. They have a keen ear for music, and Satan knows what organs to excite to animate, engross, and charm the mind so that Christ is not desired. The spiritual longings of the soul for divine knowledge, for a growth in grace, are wanting.

I was shown that the youth must take a higher stand and make the word of God the man of their counsel and their guide. Solemn responsibilities rest upon the young, which they lightly regard. The introduction of music into their homes, instead of inciting to holiness and spirituality, has been the means of diverting their minds from the truth. Frivolous songs and the popular sheet music of the day seem congenial to their taste...

Music, when not abused, is a great blessing; but when put to a wrong use, it is a terrible curse. It excites, but does not impart that strength and courage which the Christian can find only at the throne of grace while humbly making known his wants and with strong cries and tears pleading for heavenly strength to be fortified against the powerful temptations of the evil one. Satan is leading the young captive. Oh, what can I say to lead them to break his power of infatuation! He is a skillful charmer, luring them on to perdition. --Testimonies, Vol. 1, pp. 496-497. (Emphasis Supplied.)

Satan Uses it to Gain Access. --Eternal things have little weight with the youth. Angels of God are in tears as they write in the roll the words and acts of professed Christians. Angels are hovering around yonder dwelling. The young are there assembled; there is the sound of vocal and instrumental music. Christians are gathered there, but what is that you hear?

It is a song, a frivolous ditty, fit for the dance hall. Behold the pure angels gather their light closer around them, and darkness envelops those in that dwelling. The angels are moving from the scene. Sadness is upon their countenances. Behold, they are weeping. This I saw repeated a number of times all through the ranks of Sabbath keepers, and especially in _______.

Music has occupied the hours which should have been devoted to prayer. Music is the idol which many professed Sabbath keeping Christians worship. Satan has no objection to music if he can make that a channel through which to gain access to the minds of the youth.

Anything will suit his purpose that will divert the mind from God and engage the time which should be devoted to His service. He works through the means which will exert the strongest influence to hold the largest numbers in a pleasing infatuation, while they are paralyzed by his power. When turned to good account, music is a blessing; but it is often made one of Satan's most attractive agencies to ensnare souls. When abused, it leads the unconsecrated to pride, vanity, and folly. When allowed to take the place of devotion and prayer, it is a terrible curse.

Young persons assemble to sing, and, although professed Christians, frequently dishonor God and their faith by their frivolous conversation and their choice of music. Sacred music is not congenial to their taste. I was directed to the plain teachings of God's word, which have been passed by unnoticed. In the judgment all these words of inspiration will condemn those who have not heeded them. --Testimonies, Vol. 1, pp. 585-586. (Emphasis Supplied)

Low Songs and Lewd Gestures. --Among the most dangerous resorts for pleasure is the theater. Instead of being a school of morality and virtue, as is so often claimed, it is the very hotbed of immorality. Vicious habits and sinful propensities are strengthened and confirmed by these entertainments. Low songs, Lewd gestures, expressions, and attitudes, deprave the imagination and debase the morals.

Every youth who habitually attends such exhibitions will be corrupted in principle. There is no influence in our land more powerful to poison the imagination, to destroy religious impressions, and to blunt the relish for the tranquil pleasures and sober realities of life than theatrical amusements. The love for these scenes increases with every indulgence, as the desire for intoxicating drink strengthens with its use. --Testimonies, Vol. 4, pp. 652-653. (Emphasis Supplied)


Yet melodies and tunes like these are precisely the melodies and tunes LOBO wants to foist on the SDA Church by changing the lyrics to make them look more "Christian" and more "ecclesiastical"!

Re: Celebration Church [Re: debbie] #164240
04/12/14 08:49 AM
04/12/14 08:49 AM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Celebration Churches, Spiritual Formation, and One Project all seem to be a three-fold attempt to infiltrate and bring change to the SDA Church.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Celebration Church [Re: Daryl] #164241
04/12/14 10:47 AM
04/12/14 10:47 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
---

Re: Celebration Church [Re: debbie] #164244
04/12/14 04:39 PM
04/12/14 04:39 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
The best way to overcome the infiltration of worldliness in the Church is for the Church to faithfully proclaim the 28 Fundamental Beliefs. Condemning worldliness or worldly church members will only inflame the problem. "The way to dispel darkness is to admit light. The best way to deal with error is to present truth. It is the revelation of God's love that makes manifest the deformity and sin of the heart centered in self." {DA 498.5}

People who spend their time and energy trying to root out evil in the Church are spinning their wheels. It is time wasted. The time they spend talking about evil is time not spent talking about Jesus and His righteousness. What the Church needs now is truth - the truth as it is in Jesus. "Not through controversy and discussion is the soul enlightened. We must look and live." {DA 175.2} People need to see Jesus in a positive light in the context of the fruits of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

There is nothing wrong with the truth. There is nothing wrong with traditional worship services. There is nothing wrong with Church. It's not broken. It doesn't need repair. Church members are broken. Church members need repair. People who are thriving in Jesus thrive in Church. They thrive during traditional worship services. They do not need rock music to fall on the Rock. They do not need to wear less clothing to feel relevant. All they need is Christ and Him crucified. Give me Jesus!

Re: Celebration Church [Re: debbie] #164247
04/12/14 05:08 PM
04/12/14 05:08 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: mm
There is nothing wrong with traditional worship services. There is nothing wrong with Church. It's not broken. It doesn't need repair.
Bold statements. Do you have "proof"?
Originally Posted By: mm
The best way to overcome the infiltration of worldliness in the Church is for the Church to faithfully proclaim the 28 Fundamental Beliefs.
What? Why not proclaim the truth as it is in Jesus? Let those who teach the truth present it as it is in Jesus.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Celebration Church [Re: Mountain Man] #164249
04/12/14 09:12 PM
04/12/14 09:12 PM
dedication  Offline
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The best way to overcome the infiltration of worldliness in the Church is for the Church to faithfully proclaim the 28 Fundamental Beliefs. ...
There is nothing wrong with the truth. There is nothing wrong with traditional worship services. There is nothing wrong with Church. It's not broken. It doesn't need repair. Church members are broken. Church members need repair. People who are thriving in Jesus thrive in Church. They thrive during traditional worship services. They do not need rock music to fall on the Rock. They do not need to wear less clothing to feel relevant. All they need is Christ and Him crucified. Give me Jesus!


People = the church.
When church members are "broken" the church becomes broken.
When church members are "thriving in Jesus", the Church thrives.

People realize there is something missing in their church. All kinds of worldly "consumer values" are brought in, in an attempt to fix the situation, but it only makes the church more worldly and the members more broken.

Yes, teach the fundamental beliefs as they are rooted in Christ. A church that has no platform to stand on will soon stand for nothing and be blown about by every wind of doctrine.

Yes, encourage each member to spend "a thoughtful hour" each day reading scripture and thinking about Christ and His death, resurrection, life, priestly work and soon coming. That is where the power of the church lies -- when members connect daily with the source of Salvation -- "the only name under heaven whereby we must be saved".

Re: Celebration Church [Re: dedication] #164250
04/12/14 09:48 PM
04/12/14 09:48 PM
dedication  Offline
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
The Church Walking With The World

A Poem Attributed to Matilda C Edwards, 1936 That shows the picture in a most striking way.

Quote:
The Church and the World walked far apart
On the changing shores of time,
The World was singing a giddy song,
And the Church a hymn sublime.

“Come, give me your hand,” said the merry World,
“And walk with me this way!”
But the faithful Church hid her gentle hands
And solemnly answered “Nay!

I will not give you my hand at all,
And I will not walk with you;
Your way is the way that leads to death;
Your words are all untrue.”

“Nay, walk with me but a little space,”
Said the World with a kindly air;
“The road I walk is a pleasant road,
And the sun shines always there.

Your path is thorny and rough and rude,
But mine is broad and plain;
My way is paved with flowers and dews,
And yours with tears and pain.

My path, you see, is a broad, fair one
And my gate is high and wide;
There’s room enough for you and me
To travel side by side.”

Half shyly the Church approached the World
And gave him her hand of snow;
And the old World quick grasped it and walked along,
Saying, in accents low:

“Your dress is too simple to please my taste;
I will give you pearls to wear,
Rich velvets and silks for your graceful form,
And diamonds to deck your hair.”

The Church looked down at her plain white robes,
And then at the dazzling World,
And blushed as she saw his handsome lip
With a smile contemptuous curled.

“I will change my dress for a costlier one,”
Said the Church, with a smile of grace;
Then her pure white garments drifted away,
And the World gave, in their place,

Beautiful satins and shining silks,
Roses and gems and costly pearls;
While over her forehead her bright hair fell
Crisped in a thousand curls.

“Your house is too plain,” said the proud old World,
“I’ll build you one like mine;
With walls of marble and towers of gold,
And furniture ever so fine.”

So he built her a costly and beautiful house;
Most splendid it was to behold;
Her sons and her beautiful daughters dwelt there
Gleaming in purple and gold.

Rich fairs and shows in the halls were held,
And the World and his children were there.
Laughter and music and feasts were heard
In the Place that was meant for Prayer.

There-were cushioned seats for the rich and the gay,
To sit in their pomp and pride;
While the poor folk, who were clad in shabby array,
Sat meekly down outside.

The Angel of Mercy flew over the Church,
And whispered, "I know thy sin":
Then the Church looked back with a sigh and longed
To gather her children in;

But some were off at the midnight ball,
And some were off at the play,
And some were drinking in rowdy saloons,
So she quietly went her way.

Then the sly World gallantly said to her:
"Your children mean no harm,
Merely indulging in innocent sports";
So she leaned on his proffered arm

And smiled and chatted and gathered flowers
As she walked along with the World;
While millions and millions of deceived souls
To eternal death were hurled.

"Your preachers are all too old and plain,"
Said the World to the Church with a sneer.
"They frighten my children with dreadful tales,
Which I like not for them to hear.

They talk of brimstone and fire and pain
And the night of eternal death;
They talk of a judgment which may only be
Mentioned with bated breath.

I will send you some of the better stamp
Brilliant and witty and fast
Who will tell them that people now live under grace
And will all go to heaven at last.

The Father is merciful, great, and good,
Tender and true and kind;
Do you think He would take one child to heaven,
And leave the other behind?"

So he filled her house with jolly divines
Gifted and great and learned
And the plain old men that preached the cross
Were out of her pulpits turned.

“You give too much to the poor,” said the World.
“Far more than you ought to do;
If the poor are in need of shelter and food,
Why need it trouble you?

Go, take your money and buy rich robes,
Buy horses and carriages fine;
Buy pearls and jewels and dainty food,
Buy the rarest and costliest wine.

My children, they dote on all these things,
And if you their love would win
You must do as they do, and walk in the ways
That they are walking in.”

Then the Church held tightly the strings of her purse
And gracefully lowered her head,
And whispered, "I've given too much away;
I'll do, sir, as you have said."

Then the sons of the World and the Sons of the Church
Walked closely hand and heart,
And only the Master, who knoweth all,
Could tell the two apart.

Then the Church sat down at her ease, and said,
“I am rich and my goods increase;
I have need of nothing, or aught to do,
But to laugh, and dance, and feast.”

And the sly World heard her, and laughed up his sleeve,
And mockingly said, aside:
“The Church is fallen, the beautiful Church;
And her shame is her boast and her pride.”

The angel drew near to the mercy seat,
And whispered in sighs her name;
And the angels their anthems of rapture hushed,
And covered their heads in shame.

Then a Voice came down through the hush of heaven
From Him who sat on the throne:
"I know thy works, and how thou hast said,
'I am rich,' and hast not known

That thou art naked, poor and blind,
And wretched before my face;’
Repent or from my presence cast I thee out,
And blot thy name from its place.”

Re: Celebration Church [Re: APL] #164251
04/13/14 01:37 AM
04/13/14 01:37 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
M: There is nothing wrong with traditional worship services. There is nothing wrong with Church. It's not broken. It doesn't need repair.

A: Bold statements. Do you have "proof"?

Jesus has no plans to replace the Church.

Quote:
M: The best way to overcome the infiltration of worldliness in the Church is for the Church to faithfully proclaim the 28 Fundamental Beliefs.

A: What? Why not proclaim the truth as it is in Jesus? Let those who teach the truth present it as it is in Jesus.

The 28FB do proclaim the truth as it is in Jesus.

Re: Celebration Church [Re: dedication] #164252
04/13/14 01:43 AM
04/13/14 01:43 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
When church members are "broken" the church becomes broken. When church members are "thriving in Jesus", the Church thrives.

Amen! To clarify, though, the SDA Church is soundly built on the 28FB, the truth as it is in Jesus. Local churches and local church members may fall and falter, but the 28FB remain true.

quote]People realize there is something missing in their church. All kinds of worldly "consumer values" are brought in, in an attempt to fix the situation, but it only makes the church more worldly and the members more broken.

Yes, teach the fundamental beliefs as they are rooted in Christ. A church that has no platform to stand on will soon stand for nothing and be blown about by every wind of doctrine.

Yes, encourage each member to spend "a thoughtful hour" each day reading scripture and thinking about Christ and His death, resurrection, life, priestly work and soon coming. That is where the power of the church lies -- when members connect daily with the source of Salvation -- "the only name under heaven whereby we must be saved". [/quote]
Amen!

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