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Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
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Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34256
04/21/05 05:14 PM
04/21/05 05:14 PM
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From the other topic on clapping hands the following question was asked and can now be discussed here:
Is lifting hands OK in church?
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34257
04/21/05 11:50 PM
04/21/05 11:50 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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I'll say one pro for it; it does not make a lot of noies (like clapping) and is therefore not as much of an interuption or distraction.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34258
04/22/05 01:23 AM
04/22/05 01:23 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 126
USA
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I would say no. It apart of the celebration worship that is enter the SDA Churches.
While attending a small country SDA church in Texas for about a year two ministers and their families came to give Sabbath service. One was from California;the other Texas but he had been visiting a Baptist Congregation to teach them Adventist truths but got caught up in the whirlwind of their type of worship. They tried to introduce that Sabbath the celebration worship with the saying of I am saved, lifting up hands, clapping,ect.
I was thankful that this little church rejected it.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34259
04/22/05 06:07 AM
04/22/05 06:07 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Is there any scripture against pryaing with lifted hands? An appropriate list of scripture references could help the topic.
/Thomas
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34260
04/22/05 01:43 PM
04/22/05 01:43 PM
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So, next time your child or grand child runs to you with uplifted hands because they want to picked up and held by you, are you going to rject their pleadings because that is outside your worship box???
My ministry takes me across many denominational lines. While I do not like some of the things other folks do in church, there are somethings I do like and have incorperated them into our worship services.
If we do not stand with them when(His sheep in other folds) they are right, how will they listen to us when they are wrong?
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34261
04/22/05 02:03 PM
04/22/05 02:03 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
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Do not misunderstand what is written. We are not to go to Babylon to get our information on how to run our churches, whether Pentecostal or Catholic or Methodist.
If a person wants to lift their hands up and ask for the speaking in tongues, that is their business but DO NOT bring this evil into our SDA churches because it will make them corrupt in the sight of God.
And Barry, I'm surprised at your comments about rejecting ones children when they lift up their hands to us as parents.
We are speaking about lifting up of hands in a church setting. If you want to do this in your SDA church, then DO NOT call it an SDA Church.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34262
04/22/05 02:18 PM
04/22/05 02:18 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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I have found myself lifting up my hands, but not in the traditional swaying back and forth. I found in the Bible that it was either king Solomon, or Moses that when they prayed thats what they did. I did this in private by myself while praying to God because I was in a rough spot.
I wont do this at church though because I dont feel like I have to, need to, or suppose that being filled with the Holy Ghost would incline me to do so at church. THats something private between me and The Lord.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34263
04/22/05 05:00 PM
04/22/05 05:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by debbie:
... If you want to do this in your SDA church, then DO NOT call it an SDA Church.
Debbie, I have seen you express this basic sentiment about just about everything that you are uncomforatable with or with which you disagree. At times you have expressed it bluntly that folks who do such-and-such are not welcome or should go elsewhere. This kind of exclusive not-in-my-backyard mentaility is a great evangelism tool which provoked Jesus to say of the Pharisees, "You travel to the ends of the earth to make a convert and end up making him a worse son of hell than you are."
I am most greatful that you are not in charge and are not making the rules...
Tom
![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif)
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34264
04/22/05 05:37 PM
04/22/05 05:37 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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These here are the verses on prayer and lifted hands I found in the bible. If anyone knows another one, do post it.
1 Timothy 2:7-9
7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle–I am telling the truth, I am not lying–and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
Lamentations 3:40-42
40 Let us examine our ways and test them,
and let us return to the LORD .
41 Let us lift up our hearts and our hands
to God in heaven, and say:
42 "We have sinned and rebelled
and you have not forgiven.
Psalm 141
1 O LORD , I call to you; come quickly to me.
Hear my voice when I call to you.
2 May my prayer be set before you like incense;
may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice.
3 Set a guard over my mouth, O LORD ;
keep watch over the door of my lips.
Psalm 134
1 Praise the LORD , all you servants of the LORD
who minister by night in the house of the LORD.
2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary
and praise the LORD .
3 May the LORD , the Maker of heaven and earth,
bless you from Zion.
Psalm 119
47 for I delight in your commands
because I love them.
48 I lift up my hands to [a] your commands, which I love,
and I meditate on your decrees.
z Zayin
49 Remember your word to your servant,
for you have given me hope.
Psalm 118
15 Shouts of joy and victory
resound in the tents of the righteous:
"The LORD's right hand has done mighty things!
16 The LORD's right hand is lifted high;
the LORD's right hand has done mighty things!"
17 I will not die but live,
and will proclaim what the LORD has done.
Psalm 63
3 Because your love is better than life,
my lips will glorify you.
4 I will praise you as long as I live,
and in your name I will lift up my hands.
5 My soul will be satisfied as with the richest of foods;
with singing lips my mouth will praise you.
Psalm 28
1 To you I call, O LORD my Rock;
do not turn a deaf ear to me.
For if you remain silent,
I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
2 Hear my cry for mercy
as I call to you for help,
as I lift up my hands
toward your Most Holy Place.
Nehemiah 8
5 Ezra opened the book. All the people could see him because he was standing above them; and as he opened it, the people all stood up. 6 Ezra praised the LORD , the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, "Amen! Amen!" Then they bowed down and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34265
04/22/05 08:24 PM
04/22/05 08:24 PM
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Debbie,
I personally love when my grandchildren come running to Paw Paw with hands lifted up want a pick me up.
Those of us that are in Jesus Christ are His children. Sometimes, many times, we need a pick me up...........
Now Debbie, would you please answer the following questions about your church:
What is the population in the town of the church that you attend?
How many members did you have 1 year ago?
How many members now?
What is the average attendance on Sabbath?
What is the average attendance for prayer meeting?
Thanx for the reply in advance.........Barry
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34266
04/22/05 11:07 PM
04/22/05 11:07 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
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I probably won't remember all those questions but I will try. I attend the Touchet SDA Church. There are approx. 200 or less in the town. The church has a membership of 50 and I'd say the average attendance is close to that number.
We have an outreach leader in our church that keeps us busy. We are new to our church but I would guess the membership has about doubled in the last year. We had the recent Doug Batchelor series in our church and many came.
We have a good relationship with those in the town. A week ago last Sabbath we handed out loaves of homemade bread to our neighbors in the community. A few weeks before that we went door to door handing out literature and just visiting with people on Sabbath afternoon. It was a wonderful experience.
My husband and I with a few friends (in the past several years) have covered all communities within a 120 mile radius handing out books, any kind of literature we could get our hands on--when people heard what we were doing, they began to bring boxes of books and things we could give out. We went on foot and covered every door.
We covered Milton Freewater, Oregon, Walla Walla, Washington, College Place, Washington, Touchet, Washington, Lowden, Washington, Prescott, Washington, Wallula, Washington, Burbank, Washington, Elgin, Oregon, Athena, Oregon, Weston, Oregon, Adams, Oregon, Helix, Oregon, Lewiston, Idaho, Clarkston, Washington and several other small towns.
We often knock on doors and visit with people and invite them to take Bible studies. When we covered four towns that were close together, it was when we were having a Doug B satelite seminar and five whole families were brought into the church. This was several years ago when we were attending the Blue Mountain SDA Church. Since then we have moved our membership to Touchet, Washington Church.
We don't have all members attending prayer meeting, probably about 3/4ths do.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34267
04/23/05 12:47 AM
04/23/05 12:47 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 126
USA
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Has not the same process been repeated in nearly every church calling itself Protestant? As its founders, those who possessed the true spirit of reform, pass away, their descendants come forward and "new model the cause." ... {GC88 385.1}
Was there lifting up hands in the beginning of the SDA Church Pastor Barry?
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34268
04/23/05 01:51 AM
04/23/05 01:51 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Barry, quote:
So, next time your child or grand child runs to you with uplifted hands because they want to picked up and held by you, are you going to rject their pleadings because that is outside your worship box???
I think the analogy of denying a child because they lifted up hands is not the greatest one let alone not correct in context. What I mean is that its not even comparing apples to oranges, but lumber and butter.
Being a child I never felt compelled by the Holy Spirit to raise up my hands ever, not even when I was without a car in a different country for 1 whole year and thirsted to hear the word of God, was taken to one of those megachurch celebration style services. I did not "feel" compelled, driven, nor any inclination to rise my hands as if I were waiting for someone to throw me money.
I know that I can boldly approach the throne of grace in time of need, and if I need to raise my hands its private, out wide open in humility. God will not in now way cast out anyone who comes to Him.
I understandwhat you are saying though, but we are in church and in the sanctuary where there should be reverance, and this means turn off your cell phones, or put them on vibrate, if the kids get rowdy take them outside or into one of the rooms for parents and kids. We have to show respect. Its as easy as that. How many people do you see with their arms wide open as described in the Bible at a church service? I usually see them waving side to side. Anyways interesting topic ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
God Bless & Happy Sabbath,
Will
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34269
04/23/05 02:02 AM
04/23/05 02:02 AM
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I don't know why but when I was reading these post the old anti-perspirant commercial kept coming to mind "Raise your hands, raise your hands if you're sure". I never thought I would see any religious symbolism there...hmmm.
Redfog
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34270
04/23/05 02:51 AM
04/23/05 02:51 AM
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The point I was and still am trying to make is not all people worship in the same way. There is no one church service here on earth that fits everyone. But the fact that not everyone worships the same should not result in a rock throwing contest or condemnation. If Jesus did not come to condemn then why should we????
I do not like cold, legalistic, boring church services. Here is a hint to look for if you are trying to find a church to worship.
Park your car in the parking lot and wait until church is over. If at 12.01 the church doors blow open and the people start pouring out and running for their cars. If by 12:10 the church is closed and locked, chances are there is no fellowship or anointing in that church. Sheep that are well fed and watered tend to hang around the trough. mi dos centavos............
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34271
04/23/05 03:50 AM
04/23/05 03:50 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
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God had specific instructions on how to worship Him and He gave those instructions to Abel. Abel obeyed God in slaying an innocent lamb and putting it on the alter.
Cain probably didn't want to get his hands dirty or perhaps he didn't want to kill the lamb, but he thought his offering to God was the best he could give -- the best of the fruits and vegetables that he grew himself. But God did not accept his gift of worship.
There is only one way in which to worship God and that is the way HE outlined in the Bible and SOP.
"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God; but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deut. 29:29
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34272
04/23/05 04:07 AM
04/23/05 04:07 AM
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Debbie, it would appear that one way to worship God is outlined in the verses Thomas posted...
If there is only one way as you have suggested would you give us the Scripture text that outlines that one way?
Tom
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34273
04/23/05 04:18 AM
04/23/05 04:18 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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Like I said, at least it is, or at least should be, quiet, so it will not interupt the service.
When you start making noise with it, it seems more like a way of getting, or even diverting, attention. That would be one of my biggest problems with clapping.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34274
04/23/05 08:13 AM
04/23/05 08:13 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Reading the thread one could almost think that there was an unspoken but generally accepted agreement not to consider the scripture. Neither has there been any EW quotes except one (and it beats me what that one has to do with lifting hands to the Lord as excepmlified in the scriptures). I can only assume that the reason is that due to a lack of support from these two sources, any post against lifting hands in worship must be based on circumstantial "evidence"... The most of which seem to be that since other denominations have done this before SDA, it is somehow defiled as a practise. Is there even one practise within SDA that originated with this movement? If yes, shouldnt that worry us as idealy all our practises should have originated with God, thus mentioned in the bible and therefore have been in use by one or another church during all of church history. Somehow this is also connected with other pracises like talking in tounges as if one would by nessessity come in a package with another. Why this would be the case noone has yet explained. And even though it doesnt belong in this thread, I ask the question, did the enemy create speaking in tounges or prayer for the sick or was he able to create copies becourse God first had introduced these? Finaly, I will await a reply helping me understand the connection between Genesis chapter 4 and quote:
Psalm 134
1 Praise the LORD , all you servants of the LORD
who minister by night in the house of the LORD.
2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary
and praise the LORD .
3 May the LORD , the Maker of heaven and earth,
bless you from Zion.
May God bless all peoples this sabbath day.
/Thomas
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34275
04/23/05 02:35 PM
04/23/05 02:35 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
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"In order to serve Him (God) aright, we must be born of the divine Spirit. This will lead to watchfulness. It will purify the heart and renew the mind, and give us a new capacity for knowing and loving God. It will give us willing obedience to all His requirements. This is true worship."
9T 156
Mrs. White often equates "willing obedience" to true worship. If you want a verse, look up Revelation 14:6-12 and it says what true worship is NOT.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34276
04/23/05 07:43 PM
04/23/05 07:43 PM
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Many times in church we raise our hands, and it is nearly always for something good. During prayers the pastors will ask us to raise our hands to accept or recommit our lives to Christ. This morning we raised our hands to vote in a soon to be baptized young lady. We raise our hands to vote in new church leaders. Raising our hands never signifies evil that I can tell. So why would raising our hands in worship be wrong? In light of the texts presented it seem like a good thing. So far there has not been one quote from the Bible or SOP against the raising of hands, indeed the Biblical quotes support it.
Just because something has come out of something we consider evil does not make it evil. Days and Months are named after heathen gods but that does not make it wrong to use those terms. Our church has a cross on the steeple, when we first put it there some members were aghast, they said it was too Catholic. To Catholic? The cross? I was flabbergasted.
There is a danger in making our preferences the basis for what we consider right or wrong. I prefer Christian music from the 70's. That does not make music from the 90's or 50's somehow wrong, just different, and not what I care to listen to or sing.
Redfog
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34277
04/23/05 08:25 PM
04/23/05 08:25 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Debbie,
I give up. You have made up your mind that raising hands in church is evil and it is now obvious even to me that there is nothing I, the bible or anyone else could say to change this. If you can find something to quote that even remotely touches raised hands to be wrong, post it. If all you can come up with has about as much to do with the topic at hand as say the sermon on the mount has to do with Kellogs corn flakes, why even bother? If you choose not to raise your hands in church, fine, nothing good or bad about it. But to try to invent a case against it for some reason known only to you is but sad.
/Thomas
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34278
04/23/05 11:44 PM
04/23/05 11:44 PM
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Posting New Member
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 18
Dayton OH
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Apparently Mrs White had no problem with raising hands in prayer quote:
How can you who repeat the Lord's prayer, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven," sit at ease in your homes without helping to carry the torch of truth to others? How can you lift up your hands before God and ask His blessing upon yourselves and your families, when you are doing so little to help others?--Historical Sketches, p. 288. {ChS 90.3}
It appears that lifting up our hands before the Lord to ask his blessing is not a problem. If it were wouldn't she have said so as she said it is wrong to lift up your hands when "you are doing so little to help others"?
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34279
04/24/05 12:55 AM
04/24/05 12:55 AM
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I think it depends on what a person thinks raising hands does. For example, some people in the more charismatic churches seem to raise their hands in such a way as if they’re using their hands as antennas to tune in better reception of the Holy Spirit channel. But raising your hands as was done in several examples in the Bible is obviously not a problem.
Just because someone does something that resembles something that the—gasp—celebrationists do, doesn’t make it evil.
Jeff
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34280
04/24/05 02:01 AM
04/24/05 02:01 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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quote:
"When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites. They love to stand in the synagogues and on the street corners and pray so people will see them. I tell you the truth, they already have their full reward.
Matthew 6:5 NCV
I guess if we are doing it to call attention to the fact we are praising God, and therfore bringing attention to ourselves, it could be a problem.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34281
04/24/05 02:16 AM
04/24/05 02:16 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
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Thomas, since there seems to be some confusion, let me make things more clear.
If you would go back and read my posts, I did NOT say ALL raising of hands is wrong. I mentioned the verse in the Bible that speaks of lifting holy hands.
What I am against and will be until the Lord comes is ONLY this: lifting hands with the sole purpose of getting in the "spirit" such as the Pentecostals do to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in unknown tongues. I am against this coming into our SDA Churches and will fight against it until my dying breath!!!
It is of the devil and you all know it.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34282
04/24/05 04:25 AM
04/24/05 04:25 AM
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Bless your heart..........
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34283
04/24/05 06:28 AM
04/24/05 06:28 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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quote:
lifting hands with the sole purpose of getting in the "spirit" such as the Pentecostals do to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in unknown tongues.
Amen Debbie! Every time a benign "change" is not challenged it makes it that much easier for more things to come into the church.
When we worhip God we must worhip Him in Truth and in Spirit. We don't need to do any physical activities to conjure up the Holy Spirit, and in fact we all know that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey (Acts 5:32).
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34284
04/24/05 08:32 AM
04/24/05 08:32 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Thomas, since there seems to be some confusion, let me make things more clear.
If you would go back and read my posts, I did NOT say ALL raising of hands is wrong. I mentioned the verse in the Bible that speaks of lifting holy hands.
As far as this particular thread is conserned, this statement above is only true in the sence that you didnt write that acctual sentence anywhere. In this thread you wrote: quote:
We are speaking about lifting up of hands in a church setting. If you want to do this in your SDA church, then DO NOT call it an SDA Church.
There are a few things you wrote in the clapping thread: quote:
The bible speaks of "lifting up holy hands without wrath or doubting" in prayer. But it does not say it is to be done as a whole group during the worship services to invoke the Holy Spirit power to come on them so they can speak in false tongues. (I'm not saying you said this Daniel--I'm just making a point!)
To me, "holy hands" would be a privilege of the wise spiritual leader, Evangelist or Pastor, not the congregation. How many congregations can say they are "holy?"
The connotation of the lifting up of hands today is in a Pentecostal sense--inviting a false spirit to take control. We are told to stay away from such things, even if they are good (such as the lifting up of hands), if they bring a wrong influence to others. Very few SDA's today will use this method of prayer in our congregations.
---------
If a person wants to dance, jump, wave hands in the air and basically follow penticostalism, they are free to join a Sunday keeping penticostal church and will be welcome with open arms. But don't bring "unholy" and "common" things into the SDA Church that professes to preach and teach and believe the truth!
---------
I still believe that lifting up holy hands is not something we should pursue in our churches simply because of the huge pentecostal "speaking in tongues" connection which is very big in the USA.
I have seen some pray for others and as they pray, one hand is lifted up to God. I see nothing amiss in this type of prayer but personally I do not do it or care for it. When my husband was in India, a Pastors wife, in praying with the people there, lifted up ONE hand to God while the other was either on the persons head or shoulder while she prayed. This seems reverent but it does not appeal to me personally.
The last piece here was the only one not negative towards the concept of raising ones hand/s in worship, and even that one wasnt positive towards it. If you have another post that would better demonstrate what you wrote in your last post, youll have to point me to it.
Then you wrote:
quote:
What I am against and will be until the Lord comes is ONLY this: lifting hands with the sole purpose of getting in the "spirit" such as the Pentecostals do to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in unknown tongues. I am against this coming into our SDA Churches and will fight against it until my dying breath!!!
It is of the devil and you all know it.
Which would all be well if it hadnt been for one little objection. Its in the wrong thread. This should be in a thread called "beware of superficial religion" or "practises the pentecostals got wrong". To bring it into a thread based squarely on the bible (as shown above) about a biblical concept of how one can worship can be called none less than Confusing! This thread is about true worship of God as described in the bible. Your argument is against ritual religion, what you still have to explain is why you go trough such efforts to mix these two together.
/Thomas
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34285
04/24/05 12:04 PM
04/24/05 12:04 PM
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Charter Member
SDA
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Posts: 719
East Coast Canada
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Wow Dave I AGREE WITH YOU! This could also be said of "going to church"! If it is done to draw attention to oneself, that they are "going to church" and drawing attention upon themself! -raising hands as an antena??? (words removed by moderator) CENSORSHIP ALIVE AND WELL !!! -any time I raise my hands it is towards the Lord.! Not so "man" can see me! This thread is really weird (Debbie do you have any quotes against this topic?) because if we are to say that "raised hands" are "taboo" then what about "folded hands" what about "sitting on our hands" (that is going to church from 9am-12noon, then going back home and DOING NOTHING to spread the Word) [ April 24, 2005, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Dan on the Beach ]
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34286
04/24/05 04:33 PM
04/24/05 04:33 PM
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I confess. I went to a Gospel Music Concert with my wife last night. We both, from time to time, raised our hands when a portion of the song touched and blessed us.
How many Vega Links do I have to eat today to be forgiven?
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34287
04/24/05 05:24 PM
04/24/05 05:24 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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Don't forget to add extra ones in for sarcasum.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34288
04/24/05 05:29 PM
04/24/05 05:29 PM
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34289
04/24/05 05:37 PM
04/24/05 05:37 PM
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My two cents...
There is a lady at church who was heavily into the Pentacostal movement (Vineyard, etc.). She said that back then, when she raised her hands, she had a "holier than thou feeling" over those who did not. She said a lot of it had to do with pride. She was speaking from personal experience, mind you, so this may not apply to all who do it.
Anyway, she still struggles with not raising her hands--since she is a very emotional person--but doesn't feel it is any longer appropriate, because of her past experience with it.
Vicki
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34290
04/24/05 05:43 PM
04/24/05 05:43 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Some people experience "holier than you" attitudes from being part of "the only remnant of our age" church. Some I imagen experience this feeling by keeping sabbath and thus being holier than all of them heathen sunday keepers...
/Thomas
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34291
04/24/05 05:57 PM
04/24/05 05:57 PM
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How much good food do you have to eat to get over the Vega Links?
Redfog
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34293
04/24/05 10:26 PM
04/24/05 10:26 PM
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Charter Member
SDA
Active Member 2020
Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 719
East Coast Canada
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Foolish talk?
The only foolish talk is when someone asks another for references from scripture, and to have further nonbiblical gobbledegook posted! The Bible says that we are to write on our hands "the Lords" we are to raise holy hands, we are to worship the Creator God...
-I too have been to concerts where I have raised my hands in worship, it was definitely not Steve Green that I was raising my hands for, nor was it so others could or could not see me, it was simply for HIM! In prayer at home and at church I have raised my hands... again this was towards He whom has created us.
-...
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34294
04/24/05 11:02 PM
04/24/05 11:02 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
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Daniel, you are being disrespectful and rude.
This is a warning. If you continue to disregard the rules of this forum, you will not have the privilege of posting here.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34295
04/25/05 12:05 AM
04/25/05 12:05 AM
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From the very outset of church planting, you must decide ownership of the church building. If it is going to belong to the congregation, then they can make up the rules and regulations as they see fit. Accept or exclude folks as they are moved.
If it is God's church, and you have dedicated the facility to Him, then you need to be prepared to recieve "whosoever" whether they fit your mold or not. "Come unto me all you that are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest" God has invited the whole world to his house.
The thing that is so discouraging in Christiandom today is the rampant insanity. The legalism, the exclusivity, the piousness, the plain lack of concern for our fellow man much less our fellow church members that have drifted away. Where is our passion for souls?? We talk a good game....but it is all talk.
As I travel around the country, the horror stories that I hear would make you sick. Many well meaning Christians turn out to be just plain mean. A lady called me the other day. They kicked her out of school in 1957 and then the elders of the church went to her mother and dad and dropped her name off the church books. She has been out of the church since 1957........her crime was going to see the movie 20,000 Leagues under the Sea. The insanity must stop.
Recently I was in Montana for a weekend revival. A well dressed lady there told me her horror story. She came to church with lip stick on. They pulled her aside, wiped her mouth and then told her that "too much on the outside means nothing of the inside". She was out for over 20 years....Praise God, she has come home.
The horror stories go on and on. My plea to you is to stop the insanity whereever you can. Love the people. Hug the people. Bind up there wounds. Be a blessing to someone that needs help.
Sitting here playing theological badmitten is not going to get anyone to Heaven. Fighting to someone's dying breath on a non-salvetic issue is not the best use of the short time that is left to gather in souls. Our churches are struggling. No one really gets concerned that for every Adventist in the pew on Sabbath morning there are 3 out in the world no longer attending church. Whatever we are doing, it ain't working. Please, I beg you.............stop the insanity
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34296
04/25/05 12:55 AM
04/25/05 12:55 AM
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Serious posts, such as the one just before this one, are acceptable, however, the other type of posts, sarcastic and such, are not.
If we can't be respectful to others in our posts, then we shouldn't be posting at all.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34297
04/25/05 01:24 AM
04/25/05 01:24 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Barry,
Debbie has hit it right on the head, and she is absolutely correct. Alot of people just cant stand and have a brutal time with dealing with things a child understands. All of a sudden wewant to make being a Christian something without distinctions, you can talk how you want, do what you like when you worship God. God never set any rules at all, and any "restrictions" are legalism.
What ever happened to guarding the mind, and the heart?
Now think about this one. I have to all of a sudden deal with the happy "spirit filled" brother or sister next to me as they move over into my space cause they are lifting holy hands?
In fact if we are using the Bible to justify what lifting up hands are, then why is it that the same pattern is used in charismatic churches? I would think that anyone worth their salt who firmly believes that we should be able to dowhatever we want will research this and present it, and that is truly interesting. You would think it would be just rasing hands, but people start to move side to side feelin the groove following their heart.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34298
04/25/05 02:38 AM
04/25/05 02:38 AM
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There are things that the penticostal folks do that make the hair on the back of my neck stand straight. I don't like the tongues thing...it makes no sense. But an innocent gesture of lifting one's hand in the air when something is uplifting is nothing more than a physical amen/thank you Lord gesture. If you are not ever moved to that point thats OK. But again, the fact that it may outside of your worship box is certainly no reason to condemn it.
I have worked in years past with some of the finest Penticostal televangelists in our nation.(Kenneth Copeland, Jessie Duplantis, Phil Driscoll, Mac Hammonds to name a few) I know a little more about what goes on in that circle of folks than most cocooned Adventists. And just for the record, the ministries that I worked with in the penticostal realm have far greater integrity than any other organizations I have ever been associated with. Period.
I have often suggested to conference presidents to have pastors attend a sunday church in their community at least once a month. Then write a 1 page report on what they saw. You would be amazed at what you would learn.....if you would. I have been told on more than one occasion that a baptist would rather see a rattle snake crawl up the isle than see an Adventist come in their back door. How sad. I am more than proud to have sang, preached and fellowshipped with Baptist folks all over the SW. If we can't get along with folks here, how will we do it in heaven? God gave me the very first Baptist pastor that I worked with. He and his wife have now been Adventists for over 6 years. Fishers of men. You catch'em....let Him clean'em.........stop the insanity....please.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34299
04/25/05 03:54 AM
04/25/05 03:54 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Interesting you named Kenneth Copeland since I was reading a book by a gentleman who was involved quite heavily in New Age.
This gentleman was intructed specifically to listen and watch Copeland because much of his teachings were new age, and in fact to use it to infiltrate churches. What exactly is your defenition of insanity especially in the context of this topic.
The names of those people you mentioned are short of conmen, and obviously misleading people by the tens of thousands. I dont see any integrity at all in what they do and who they are, and is much along the lines of "Praise the Lord and pass the plate".
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34300
04/25/05 05:05 AM
04/25/05 05:05 AM
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Kenneth Copeland? Sitting on the floor with people in church, laughing like maniacal idiots ("holy laughter"), having people bark like dogs and hoot like monkeys, and all the while calling that the work of the Holy Spirit? Pul-lease. If that's integrity, I hope never to have any.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34301
04/25/05 05:49 AM
04/25/05 05:49 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Barry, You said: quote:
I know a little more about what goes on in that circle of folks than most cocooned Adventists.
No one is debating whether you know more than "cocooned" Seventh-Day Adventists or not, but you seem more like them each and every post that goes by.
Also you said:
quote:
I have often suggested to conference presidents to have pastors attend a sunday church in their community at least once a month. Then write a 1 page report on what they saw. You would be amazed at what you would learn.....if you would.
I am glad that deceptive thought has not come to our church, and our pastor. You use "if we cant get along here" theme as a crutch and a curtain to really say "lets do away with the pillars of our faith". Please do correct me if I am wrong.
I went to disney land many years ago and got really hungry, I mean famished. We went to buy some pizza and cokes, since the pasta looked unappealing, and and after paying $30.00 for 3 slices and 2 cokes I took a bite into what I thought would be great pizza. To my disappointment it was extrmely bland.
The reason why its so bland is because they (disney) has to accomadate all types, some people dont like garlicy pizza, others dont want too much salt, others dont like too much sauce, or too much this or that. The end result was terrible.
Thats what all this ecumenical hogwash is like, a bland tasteless glop of substance passed off as food.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34302
04/25/05 07:47 AM
04/25/05 07:47 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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I think this would be a good time to check out a new use for the new live chatroom function. How about all who have issue in this thread gathering there at a specific time to talk. It is my belief that much steam would be let of as much missunderstanding can be dealth with before it would have time to grow any further. I would primarily think myself, Debbie, Barry and Will. Maybe others would come aswell. One of you can propose a time, but remember that I live 6 hours later from eastern US coast and cannot spend early morning hours (02-06) on this.
/Thomas
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34303
04/25/05 12:42 PM
04/25/05 12:42 PM
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There are many things that the Pentecostals do that concern me. When I spoke of integrity in their ministry I was refering to how they treat each other and how they treat their employees.
It seems that most folks are afraid of mingling with Christians from other denominations. I am not. Find common ground and work from there. Be a blessing whereever you can.
The fact that we have the "Truth" does not give us license to beat folks with it. Our approach to ministry is acceptance without condemnation. We welcome folks into our fellowship and love them. Then we watch as the Holy Spirit begins to work in their lives. We watch miracles happen each week. Their are hundreds of thousands of former SDAs out in the world that want to come home. The stumbling block is either fear of being hurt again or they just do not know how to come back home.
The insanity is how we treat each other in the name of religion. There are many folks in our churches that are working for God like the devil.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34304
04/26/05 03:53 AM
04/26/05 03:53 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Thanks for clearing that up Barry, and I agree that we should find a common thread with other Christians without having to compromise our beliefs.
I have friends of different denominations, and I talk to them, and we actually study the Bible together, or talk about God's wonderful promises, but when they think about family that are asleep(dead) and tell me how when we die that we go to heaven thats when I begin to ask them how do they know that it is true, and take it from there.
I also agree with the hurt that has gone on, and how many people basically need to be loved back home. Regardless of denomination you will always have those who are extreme, and I mean very extreme.
I don't eat pork or beef, and when someone asks me why I dont beat them over the head with my Bible, but I let them know that its for health reasons, and God gave me this body, and its the temple of the Holy Spirit, so I have to treat it nicely, and take care of it. From there on its smooth sailing.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34305
04/26/05 05:56 PM
04/26/05 05:56 PM
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Thanx for the reply Will,
We love southern gospel music. As an outreach to the community, we have gospel concerts at our church at least once a month. One of the quartets that we are close to told us about a church they were recently booked into.
The church board of this church had recently met and approved two new rules.
1) It would be approriate for the congregation to applaud..........as long as the pastor did not instigate the applause.
2) It would be approriate for people to raise their hands in church provided the hands did not go above the level of the persons ear.
I guess we are not the only denomination that is infected with insanity..........
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34306
04/29/05 11:57 AM
04/29/05 11:57 AM
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Charter Member
SDA
Active Member 2020
Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 719
East Coast Canada
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Before I post further on this thread, I would like to make a public appology to the moderator (Debbie) and to anyone else here that I may have offended with my innappropriate postings. I have been counciled by Daryl and understand that I need to be very careful with my word choices and style of writting.
Thank you
Daniel
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34307
04/29/05 12:50 PM
04/29/05 12:50 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 211
Ohio
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I don't think "insanity" in our churches is really the issue. I think we have too long been criticizing each other and judging each others' motives. It isn't easy to come to the point where we can say, I don't agree with that person's position, but I have no right to label them (e.g, legalist, liberal etc.), but if we can't come to that point, we become what we accuse others of. There is a tendency to type cast everyone who doesn't agree with our position as carping, unloving, self-righteous, etc., and many times that isn't the case. A number of people are very uncomfortable with applause and hand raising in church, and most of them say nothing, but just give it over to the Lord. But there is a tendency with some to look at people who don't take part in the applause and handraising and judge them as hard liner legalists. If we are comfortable with doing something in church and others aren't, we need to be as Christian in our tolerance as we want them to be with us. It cuts both ways.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34308
04/30/05 03:18 AM
04/30/05 03:18 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Jan
You are right. It would be foolish to divide a church over the position of hands in worship or prayer.
/Thomas
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34309
04/29/05 04:03 PM
04/29/05 04:03 PM
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It would seem that more than right or wrong ways to worship there are many different ways to worship. That being said there are places where, with but a little travel, a person can praise the Creator with others who worship in the same style. And for those who cannot we need to learn to be tolerant of those whose style is different than is ours as long as that style does not go against a very clear thus sayith the Lord.
Redfog
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
#34310
10/01/06 02:40 AM
10/01/06 02:40 AM
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Charter Member
SDA
Active Member 2020
Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 719
East Coast Canada
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it is a chore to get the members to raise their hands even when asked a question, let alone have them raisng their hands in worship!
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: vastergotland]
#95143
02/02/08 06:16 AM
02/02/08 06:16 AM
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I just read this whole thread from 2005 and found myself shaking my head at good folks who appear to be absolutely convinced that what the Bible clearly endorses is from the devil. If we truly believe the Bible to be the Word of God, I hope we will use it as our rule of faith and worship practices, no matter how others may subvert biblical practices. If we cannot practice what the devil has subverted to his own purposes, we cannot keep Sabbath. After all, there is the Black Sabbath, witches' Sabbath, etc. Along with the insanity Barry describes, I consider it insanity to give up biblical practices because the devil has used them in his games. (Hey, folks, do you eat fruit?? Don't you know that the devil used a fruit to cause the mother of humanity to fall into sin? Should we consider fruit to be evil?) Just for review, here are some of the positive biblical references of lifting hands in prayer and worship: These here are the verses on prayer and lifted hands I found in the bible. If anyone knows another one, do post it.
1 Timothy 2:7-9
7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle–I am telling the truth, I am not lying–and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
Lamentations 3:40-42
40 Let us examine our ways and test them,
and let us return to the LORD .
41 Let us lift up our hearts and our hands
to God in heaven, and say:
42 "We have sinned and rebelled
and you have not forgiven.
Psalm 141
1 O LORD , I call to you; come quickly to me.
Hear my voice when I call to you.
2 May my prayer be set before you like incense;
may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice.
3 Set a guard over my mouth, O LORD ;
keep watch over the door of my lips.
Psalm 134
1 Praise the LORD , all you servants of the LORD
who minister by night in the house of the LORD.
2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary
and praise the LORD .
3 May the LORD , the Maker of heaven and earth,
bless you from Zion.
Psalm 119
47 for I delight in your commands
because I love them.
48 I lift up my hands to [a] your commands, which I love,
and I meditate on your decrees.
z Zayin
49 Remember your word to your servant,
for you have given me hope.
Psalm 118
15 Shouts of joy and victory
resound in the tents of the righteous:
"The LORD's right hand has done mighty things!
16 The LORD's right hand is lifted high;
the LORD's right hand has done mighty things!"
17 I will not die but live,
and will proclaim what the LORD has done.
Psalm 63
3 Because your love is better than life,
my lips will glorify you.
4 I will praise you as long as I live,
and in your name I will lift up my hands.
5 My soul will be satisfied as with the richest of foods;
with singing lips my mouth will praise you.
Psalm 28
1 To you I call, O LORD my Rock;
do not turn a deaf ear to me.
For if you remain silent,
I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
2 Hear my cry for mercy
as I call to you for help,
as I lift up my hands
toward your Most Holy Place.
Nehemiah 8
5 Ezra opened the book. All the people could see him because he was standing above them; and as he opened it, the people all stood up. 6 Ezra praised the LORD , the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, "Amen! Amen!" Then they bowed down and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Chris Williams]
#95144
02/02/08 06:20 AM
02/02/08 06:20 AM
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And, for those who believe Ellen White's counsel supersedes the Bible, here's a review of a short quote from her pen: Apparently Mrs White had no problem with raising hands in prayer </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> How can you who repeat the Lord's prayer, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven," sit at ease in your homes without helping to carry the torch of truth to others? How can you lift up your hands before God and ask His blessing upon yourselves and your families, when you are doing so little to help others?--Historical Sketches, p. 288. {ChS 90.3} </font><hr /></blockquote
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: D R]
#95145
02/02/08 06:22 AM
02/02/08 06:22 AM
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it is a chore to get the members to raise their hands even when asked a question, let alone have them raisng their hands in worship! Yup! 
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Inga]
#95172
02/03/08 02:47 AM
02/03/08 02:47 AM
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Well Inga, thanks for bringing this one back, sorry I had missed out on the great back and forth that went on before my time.
WOW, it's almost all I can say, WOW!
There are SO many things here that I want to comment on, but have a limited time, so I'll just hit a few for now, and come back for more later. And by the way, I love this site.
The lifting of hands, hmmmmmm.............It's a physical movement, started in the brain, a signal traveling down the electical "circuit" of the nervous system, triggering the muscles to contract, and thus the arms raise. Seems pretty innocent on the surface, surely even Jesus raised His hands at some point. But then, I think it's about something more than that.
I almost want to say, are you serious? Is this even a real discussion, but after reading 6 whole pages, I can tell you guys are serious abou this one. For me, I can't possibly see how "raising your hands" or feet for that matter can even possibly matter. Who cares if you are so moved that you raise your hands? What if you only raise one hand? What if I'm only scratching my head, and someone iterepets it as "raising of the hands"?
No really, that's how silly this is. How can you place rules on something like this? Someone said in their church it's ok if it's below ear line. Really, is that serious? What if I'm so moved that I want to put my hands down? Or out to the side? Or, what if I want to raise my eyes to heaven when so moved, is that ok? If you want to sit and be stone still, we certainly don't chastise you for that. Why would you think the devil is in someone because they get excited about our Lord and Saviour?
I'm not sure that I've ever even noticed it or not, even after going to church for 30+ years, having attended many churches across the USA. Clearly some here think "raising of the hands" is akin to worshipping the devil, or slaying little animals. I assure you, it is no such thing. It is only what YOU make of it. If it's offensive to you, then by all means, DON'T do it. But what right do you have to tell me how to worship?
I'm pretty sure God is the only one who can tell if I'm doing it right or wrong. You may not like the way I worship, or the clothes I wear, or how I style my hair, and that's OK. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like the way you dress, but I don't go around telling you it's wrong. And even if it was, wouldn't I be better off showing you a different way to dress, rather then to put someone down, for doing something they feel is right? Do you get my point?
It's not our job to judge others, and least of all on HOW they praise the Lord. We will ALL be judged, give it time, you'll see. How about we look more internally, see what's going on with our own way of worshipping? Are we doing the right things in our own lives? What about that board in your own eye, should you remove it before worrying about the splinter in mine?
It's great to see what other's are doing, to "pull our noses out of the bible" and see the rest of the world. It gives us a chance to save a life, one other than our own. Let's not be so selfish and petty, to put down others for even worshipping at all! You'd be better off looking down on people who aren't even christians, rather than berate your brothers in Christ.
Well, that seems like a lot said, and hopefully not too much. I'm so happy to have a place where we can talk openly about the things that "move" us. And yeah, I think it's ok to worship differently than others. We are all entitled to love God, we all have the right to be saved. And if that means you need to raise your hands, I say, RAISE THEM HIGH! Let the light from within shine outward, so that other's may be brought into our folds.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: fun2believe]
#95174
02/03/08 05:47 AM
02/03/08 05:47 AM
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Hi fun2believe, Thanks for the reply.I like your spirit.  I also find myself in total agreement with all you've written above. Inga
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: crater]
#95185
02/03/08 05:54 PM
02/03/08 05:54 PM
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Yes, let's do what we can to bring others to the Lord! We can let them decide for themselves if "lifting of hands" is appropiate for their relationship with God. Let's give them a chance to have a meaningful relationship in the first place. Then, if they don't think it's something God would want THEM to do, they can make that decision. Let's just get them to know God first, and let the rest be taken care of by God.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: fun2believe]
#95279
02/05/08 04:55 PM
02/05/08 04:55 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Lifting up our hands in church - is it OK? What a strange question. Is there any evidence in the Bible or the SOP that it isn´t okay? As for me, I´m too reserved or too shy or whatever to lift up my hands in church. It doesn´t even occur to me to do it. I see others around me doing it, and I think it´s kind of cool. It makes me feel like they´re being totally blessed in the Spirit. In some cases, though, I wonder about it, because those same people are living in open sin (the same can be said about other members who do not lift up their hands in church).
One day, I surprised myself. The preacher was waxing eloquent, the Spirit was moving wonderfully, and I stood up right in the middle of his sermon and said - "Jesus is altogether awesome and wonderful. Praise His holy name." Then I sat down thoroughly amazed at what had come over me. It felt right.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#95286
02/05/08 06:53 PM
02/05/08 06:53 PM
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Aren't we ALL living in sin? Are some of us more open about it, and others more private about it? I personally don't see how being a sinner (since that includes every single person on this planet) either makes you blessed or not blessed, and more or less likely to lift any part of the body.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: fun2believe]
#95290
02/05/08 08:58 PM
02/05/08 08:58 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Oh, you are a closet charismatic Mike. LOL..
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#95292
02/05/08 11:10 PM
02/05/08 11:10 PM
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May your tribe increase!!  Lifting up our hands in church - is it OK? What a strange question. Is there any evidence in the Bible or the SOP that it isn´t okay? As for me, I´m too reserved or too shy or whatever to lift up my hands in church. It doesn´t even occur to me to do it. I see others around me doing it, and I think it´s kind of cool. It makes me feel like they´re being totally blessed in the Spirit. In some cases, though, I wonder about it, because those same people are living in open sin (the same can be said about other members who do not lift up their hands in church).
One day, I surprised myself. The preacher was waxing eloquent, the Spirit was moving wonderfully, and I stood up right in the middle of his sermon and said - "Jesus is altogether awesome and wonderful. Praise His holy name." Then I sat down thoroughly amazed at what had come over me. It felt right.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Inga]
#95324
02/06/08 03:33 PM
02/06/08 03:33 PM
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Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,106
Florida, USA
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The lifting of hands is from the charismatic movement which some people have picked up, and IMHO just like the chanting, jumping or rolling on the floor can be a distraction or diversion from true worship... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_movement
Last edited by Richard; 02/06/08 03:38 PM.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Rick H]
#95326
02/06/08 05:31 PM
02/06/08 05:31 PM
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[quote=Richard]The lifting of hands is from the charismatic movement which some people have picked up, and IMHO just like the chanting, jumping or rolling on the floor can be a distraction or diversion from true worship...
So can a crying baby, or someone with a bad cough. And if that's all it takes to distract you from the light of God, then maybe you should spend more time getting to know Him, and less time in chruch. If those things distract you and your ability to worship, then yeah, that's a problem, FOR YOU! That's not a problem for someone who is expressing the joy they find in God, it's a problem that YOU have with them.
I'm not saying that you are wrong, because in my opinion, your "feelings" can't be wrong, they are what they are. But, it is wrong (IMHO) to shame/degrade/punish or be prejudice against someone else for thier feelings. Those activites may bring them closer to God, even though it doesn't work for you.
And yes, I am accepting of your feelings, and opinions, they just aren't mine. And thats OK, and good. It's nice to be able to express our feelings in a loving, God worshiping place such as this.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Rick H]
#95345
02/06/08 08:50 PM
02/06/08 08:50 PM
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The lifting of hands is from the charismatic movement which some people have picked up, and IMHO just like the chanting, jumping or rolling on the floor can be a distraction or diversion from true worship... I trust that you recognize you are expressing your own feelings, which have the same validity as those of folks who feel differently. Who judges what is "true worship"? Is that not the work of the Judge of all the earth? It seems to me that we should be very hesitant to condemn that which the Bible recommends -- the lifting of hands in prayer and worship. Is it not far more important to teach the true work of the Holy Spirit, as expressed by Christ, than to worry about some of our members worshiping in a way that is reminiscent of those who do not understand the work of the Holy Spirit correctly?
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Inga]
#95347
02/06/08 09:50 PM
02/06/08 09:50 PM
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Understanding the work of the Holy Spirit correctly! Yes, that's what we all need to do. But how do we do that? Whose version is correct? If there's only one version (as I know you'll make that argument), who can tell me which one that is?
And once I know the correct way, than am I not bound to follow that? I think most would say yes here, that once you know of God, and His way's, it's up to us to choose, Him or not. And then we are responsible for our actions, correct?
Well, then why not purposely not learn the correct way? Then I wouldn't be responsible, right? I can only be responsible for things I know, right? And as long as you don't tell me the right way, I'm off the hook. That is as long as your way is the right way. And how would I know that?
Seems to me the right way is something you work out with God, a way that no man can tell me is right or wrong! This church want's to tell other's they are wrong in their beliefs, and that they don't understand the Holy Spirit correctly! So, since we do know the right way, why haven't YOU spread the word, the way God told us to do? Are you then a sinner for not spreading the "truth?"
I do not understand how we as fallible humans, can tell another person, group, church, species or anything else, what is right and wrong for them. Why can't we work these things out for ourselves, though knowing our Lord, and spending time with Him, and prepare ourselves for His second coming? How would this church have any power if we didn't tell people what and how to believe? That's right, we wouldn't have any power, we would be as Jesus told us to be. Give it all up, and follow God, that's all we have to do. We don't have to follow rules, or doctrines, or anything else man made. We just have to follow God, and do as He tells us. And I'm not sure He's told me the same things as He's told you.
"Once again, these comments and FEELINGS are not the view of anybody but the author, the sole propritor of said point of view. The author does sincerely hope that you investigate all things, though the lense of the Lord, the only one who can clarify this murky subject for us."
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Inga]
#95351
02/06/08 10:29 PM
02/06/08 10:29 PM
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Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,106
Florida, USA
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The lifting of hands is from the charismatic movement which some people have picked up, and IMHO just like the chanting, jumping or rolling on the floor can be a distraction or diversion from true worship... I trust that you recognize you are expressing your own feelings, which have the same validity as those of folks who feel differently. Who judges what is "true worship"? Is that not the work of the Judge of all the earth? It seems to me that we should be very hesitant to condemn that which the Bible recommends -- the lifting of hands in prayer and worship. Is it not far more important to teach the true work of the Holy Spirit, as expressed by Christ, than to worry about some of our members worshiping in a way that is reminiscent of those who do not understand the work of the Holy Spirit correctly? If the Spirit brings me to raise my hands, then like Peter I would say 'Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head...'. But when the Holy Spirit truly comes upon a congregation or group, the raising of hands has not been a necessity or a primary requirement to say the least. If it had been first or foremost like prayer and fasting, then it would have been given clearly for us in scripture, and we would have seen it in the church from Pentecost. But yes, I dont worry too much about it as most things if they are not from God seem to fade with time.
Last edited by Richard; 02/06/08 10:41 PM.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Rick H]
#95363
02/07/08 03:21 AM
02/07/08 03:21 AM
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If the Spirit brings me to raise my hands, then like Peter I would say 'Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head...'.
I'm trying to picture that, Richard, and I come up with levitation. Now that would make me wonder, seeing what that is usually associated with.;) But when the Holy Spirit truly comes upon a congregation or group, the raising of hands has not been a necessity or a primary requirement to say the least. If it had been first or foremost like prayer and fasting, then it would have been given clearly for us in scripture, and we would have seen it in the church from Pentecost. But yes, I dont worry too much about it as most things if they are not from God seem to fade with time. I don't think anyone in this thread mentioned raising hands as a "necessity or primary requirement." However, there is some clear scriptural support for the practice: 1 Timothy 2:8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. (That sounds a bit like a command, though I have no intention of pushing it. I confess I'm a bit reticent myself about lifting my hands. ) Lamentations 2.19 Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the life of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street. (Again, a positive injunction to "lift up they hands.") Lamentations 3:40-42 40 Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the LORD . 41 Let us lift up our hearts and our hands to God in heaven, and say: 42 "We have sinned and rebelled and you have not forgiven. (An invitation to life up hands as well as hearts.) Psalm 141 1 O LORD , I call to you; come quickly to me. Hear my voice when I call to you. 2 May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice. 3 Set a guard over my mouth, O LORD ; keep watch over the door of my lips. (The Psalmist is clearly lifting up his hands in prayer ...) Psalm 134 1 Praise the LORD , all you servants of the LORD who minister by night in the house of the LORD. 2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary and praise the LORD . 3 May the LORD , the Maker of heaven and earth, bless you from Zion. (Another positive injunction.) Psalm 119 47 for I delight in your commands because I love them. 48 I lift up my hands to your commands, which I love, and I meditate on your decrees. (Again, the Psalmist leads by example.) Psalm 63 3 Because your love is better than life, my lips will glorify you. 4 I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands. 5 My soul will be satisfied as with the richest of foods; with singing lips my mouth will praise you. (Again, the Psalmist says, "I will lift up my hands ...") Psalm 28 2 Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place. (Another example by the Psalmist.) Nehemiah 8 5 Ezra opened the book. All the people could see him because he was standing above them; and as he opened it, the people all stood up. 6 Ezra praised the LORD , the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, "Amen! Amen!" Then they bowed down and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground. (And this is reported as an example of repentant people lifting their hands to the lord.) I don't know when we, as Adventists, stopped lifting hands to the Lord, because the practice seems to have been current in Ellen White's time, as she writes, "How can you who repeat the Lord's prayer, 'Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven,' sit at ease in your homes without helping to carry the torch of truth to others? How can you lift up your hands before God and ask His blessing upon yourselves and your families, when you are doing so little to help others?" (from Historical Sketches, p. 287) Again, I'm not saying that you must lift up your hands because the practice is positively recommended in the Bible and still current in Ellen White's time. But I'm suggesting that you can set your heart at ease about the practice. In the charismatic manifestations, the lifted hands aren't the problem. (It's a biblical practice.) The problem is a wrong understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit. Satan would love to have us focus on minor outward manifestations and ignore the major issues that actually affect our salvation and/or the salvation of others. May you be blessed. Inga
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Inga]
#95369
02/07/08 10:15 AM
02/07/08 10:15 AM
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Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,106
Florida, USA
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If the Spirit brings me to raise my hands, then like Peter I would say 'Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head...'.
I'm trying to picture that, Richard, and I come up with levitation. Now that would make me wonder, seeing what that is usually associated with.;) But when the Holy Spirit truly comes upon a congregation or group, the raising of hands has not been a necessity or a primary requirement to say the least. If it had been first or foremost like prayer and fasting, then it would have been given clearly for us in scripture, and we would have seen it in the church from Pentecost. But yes, I dont worry too much about it as most things if they are not from God seem to fade with time. I don't think anyone in this thread mentioned raising hands as a "necessity or primary requirement." However, there is some clear scriptural support for the practice: 1 Timothy 2:8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. (That sounds a bit like a command, though I have no intention of pushing it. I confess I'm a bit reticent myself about lifting my hands. ) Lamentations 2.19 Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the life of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street. (Again, a positive injunction to "lift up they hands.") Lamentations 3:40-42 40 Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the LORD . 41 Let us lift up our hearts and our hands to God in heaven, and say: 42 "We have sinned and rebelled and you have not forgiven. (An invitation to life up hands as well as hearts.) Psalm 141 1 O LORD , I call to you; come quickly to me. Hear my voice when I call to you. 2 May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice. 3 Set a guard over my mouth, O LORD ; keep watch over the door of my lips. (The Psalmist is clearly lifting up his hands in prayer ...) Psalm 134 1 Praise the LORD , all you servants of the LORD who minister by night in the house of the LORD. 2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary and praise the LORD . 3 May the LORD , the Maker of heaven and earth, bless you from Zion. (Another positive injunction.) Psalm 119 47 for I delight in your commands because I love them. 48 I lift up my hands to your commands, which I love, and I meditate on your decrees. (Again, the Psalmist leads by example.) Psalm 63 3 Because your love is better than life, my lips will glorify you. 4 I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands. 5 My soul will be satisfied as with the richest of foods; with singing lips my mouth will praise you. (Again, the Psalmist says, "I will lift up my hands ...") Psalm 28 2 Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place. (Another example by the Psalmist.) Nehemiah 8 5 Ezra opened the book. All the people could see him because he was standing above them; and as he opened it, the people all stood up. 6 Ezra praised the LORD , the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, "Amen! Amen!" Then they bowed down and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground. (And this is reported as an example of repentant people lifting their hands to the lord.) I don't know when we, as Adventists, stopped lifting hands to the Lord, because the practice seems to have been current in Ellen White's time, as she writes, "How can you who repeat the Lord's prayer, 'Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven,' sit at ease in your homes without helping to carry the torch of truth to others? How can you lift up your hands before God and ask His blessing upon yourselves and your families, when you are doing so little to help others?" (from Historical Sketches, p. 287) Again, I'm not saying that you must lift up your hands because the practice is positively recommended in the Bible and still current in Ellen White's time. But I'm suggesting that you can set your heart at ease about the practice. In the charismatic manifestations, the lifted hands aren't the problem. (It's a biblical practice.) The problem is a wrong understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit. Satan would love to have us focus on minor outward manifestations and ignore the major issues that actually affect our salvation and/or the salvation of others. May you be blessed. Inga You have hit the nail on the head with your words and text my sister, and have presented the issue as it should be....many show the outward manisfestations but their path is not leading them to God or have hardened their hearts and minds against the Holy Spirit and are still under the dominion of sin. God Bless Rick
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Rick H]
#95382
02/07/08 06:45 PM
02/07/08 06:45 PM
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Here's a fine example of what I've been saying. The question was asked "is lifting of hands in chruch ok?" How does this even matter?
Which is more important, following the rules, or knowing God?
Go on, think this one out, I'll give you a minute,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,maybe a little more time for some,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well? What do you think? If we know God, then rules don't matter. We will do things because we WANT to, not because it's the rule, law, or dogma. God doesn't want us to do anything because we HAVE to, only if we WANT to. That was the FIRST choice, and it's still the ONLY one that matters. IF we know God, then we will KNOW what is right, for us personally. Help others see God, not the rules of the church. I promise you, there aren't enought masochist's to go around (here's the definition of masochist from dictionary.com incase you don't know what it means)
MASOCHIST:
"""gratification gained from pain, deprivation, degradation, etc., inflicted or imposed on oneself, either as a result of one's own actions or the actions of others, esp. the tendency to seek this form of gratification"""
There are a few people out there that like this type of life, but most feel that's NOT a healthy way to live. But it's what's driving the people in this chruch more than anything else. And I say if you dont' believe me, step back, take an OBJECTIVE look for yourself. Yes, that means you'll have to do some work, use your mind, the ability to seek out information and asses it's meaning, but I think you'll agree.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: fun2believe]
#95402
02/07/08 10:41 PM
02/07/08 10:41 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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There are a few people out there that like this type of life, but most feel that's NOT a healthy way to live. But it's what's driving the people in this chruch more than anything else. And I say if you dont' believe me, step back, take an OBJECTIVE look for yourself. Yes, that means you'll have to do some work, use your mind, the ability to seek out information and asses it's meaning, but I think you'll agree.
Some loud and outspoken members of the church perhaps, but if you are arguing that the majority of adventists are masochists, I would wonder if you took your own advice of stepping back and having a long objective look.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: fun2believe]
#95420
02/08/08 08:48 AM
02/08/08 08:48 AM
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[quote=Richard]The lifting of hands is from the charismatic movement which some people have picked up, and IMHO just like the chanting, jumping or rolling on the floor can be a distraction or diversion from true worship...
So can a crying baby, or someone with a bad cough. And if that's all it takes to distract you from the light of God, then maybe you should spend more time getting to know Him, and less time in chruch. If those things distract you and your ability to worship, then yeah, that's a problem, FOR YOU! That's not a problem for someone who is expressing the joy they find in God, it's a problem that YOU have with them.
I'm not saying that you are wrong, because in my opinion, your "feelings" can't be wrong, they are what they are. But, it is wrong (IMHO) to shame/degrade/punish or be prejudice against someone else for thier feelings. Those activites may bring them closer to God, even though it doesn't work for you.
And yes, I am accepting of your feelings, and opinions, they just aren't mine. And thats OK, and good. It's nice to be able to express our feelings in a loving, God worshiping place such as this. Sorry, but since coming back to God, I really haven't cared to participate in corporate worship in most cases, as I do find that it can be very distracting, almost agitating. That is the "feelings" that I have. I could set aside my "feelings" if I was just being well fed in the "Word", and most likely these distractions would deminish. I have never been moved to raise my hand other then to ask a question or make a comment. Sorry, I haven't felt the spirit move me to "raise my hands" in church. I will admit that, neither have I felt moved to raise them at rock concerts when I attended them many years ago, though many around me seemed to be so moved. Sorry, but all this talk of raising the hands puts me in mind of classic "Animal House", you know the toga party, where they "put their hands up, to the 1959 Shout! - originally done by the The Isley Brothers. Since it is Black History month, we might consider this groups history which is new to me as I just read it on The Isley Brothers at Wikipedia They started out as a gospel quartet. I'll just share this quote from there. During an inspired rendition of Wilson's classic, "Lonely Teardrops", Ronald went into a gospel routine and with his older brothers tagging along yelled out "you know you make me wanna shout!" A scout for RCA Records was at the audience and was so impressed that he helped them get signed to the label where they went into the studio to record what they had created on stage that night. Penned solely by the brothers, the song, "Shout!", became a breakthrough for the trio. Its mixture of gospel call and response vocals, bluesy lyrics and rock angst helped the boys score their first charted hit. You know I thought there was a little gospel in some of their songs.  I know their songs sure seemed to inspire people to put there hands up.  especially when copied by such as the Beattles. Hey, could it be that the "shout and put your hands up", came out of "gospel" and moved into rock, not the other way around / the world mimicking the church?  Philippians 2:12
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: crater]
#95458
02/08/08 09:30 PM
02/08/08 09:30 PM
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Hey, could it be that the "shout and put your hands up", came out of "gospel" and moved into rock, not the other way around / the world mimicking the church? Could it be that these folks got it from the Bible which pre-dates both?
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Inga]
#95738
02/16/08 05:20 PM
02/16/08 05:20 PM
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Sorry folks I fail to see this as a major issue.
I understand ( I cannot say this as hard fact, more I heard it somewhere) that in the time of Jesus the Jews would regularly pray with uplifted hands, and if this is the case our Lord would have prayed in the same fashion. If Jesus is our example as we say then I cannot see that uplifted hands is a problem - the opposite infact.
Where I do find a problem with uplifted hands is when people start to lift their hands and wave them about and in so doing lose the reverance for the church of God. The Bible texts that have been quoted all say lift up your hands - not wave at your your God. Uplifted hands should be static and reverent otherwise not at all.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: DebbieB]
#95740
02/16/08 09:33 PM
02/16/08 09:33 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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The question then becomes, how do we know when a person has lost his or her reverence? Are we to assume that they have the exact same standards for the reverence as we ourselves do?
Waving your hands in OT terminology is presenting an offering to God. The israelite family who wanted to make an offering of mutton for instance should wave it before the Lord. Thus there is a God-ordained waving, and I assume it would have been regarded as quite reverent to perform it around Jesus time.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: vastergotland]
#95763
02/18/08 04:14 PM
02/18/08 04:14 PM
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Ok, our God does not change so can there really be different standards of reverence? I don't know the answer, but we sure get an idea of what reverence is when we look in Isaiah 6 at angels are praise God.
I do not know all the answers here västergötland, and you make good points about waving being a form of offering. I'll have a look further and come back once I have made more study into the matter.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: DebbieB]
#95768
02/18/08 06:33 PM
02/18/08 06:33 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Debbie, I think the reverence God seeks with His people is compassion with the widow and the fatherless, not wether we sit or stand to the song in church or wether we lift hands or fold them for prayer.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: fun2believe]
#95940
02/26/08 05:58 PM
02/26/08 05:58 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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MM: Lifting up our hands in church - is it OK? What a strange question. Is there any evidence in the Bible or the SOP that it isn´t okay? As for me, I´m too reserved or too shy or whatever to lift up my hands in church. It doesn´t even occur to me to do it. I see others around me doing it, and I think it´s kind of cool. It makes me feel like they´re being totally blessed in the Spirit. In some cases, though, I wonder about it, because those same people are living in open sin (the same can be said about other members who do not lift up their hands in church).
One day, I surprised myself. The preacher was waxing eloquent, the Spirit was moving wonderfully, and I stood up right in the middle of his sermon and said - "Jesus is altogether awesome and wonderful. Praise His holy name." Then I sat down thoroughly amazed at what had come over me. It felt right.
Fun2Believe: Aren't we ALL living in sin? Are some of us more open about it, and others more private about it? I personally don't see how being a sinner (since that includes every single person on this planet) either makes you blessed or not blessed, and more or less likely to lift any part of the body. I hadn't anticipated this response to what I posted above. Interesting. What do you mean by - "Aren't we ALL living in sin"? And, how does this comment/question relate to the concept of "open sin" (i.e., intentional, premeditated sinning) as opposed to unintentional, spontaneous sinning?
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#95983
02/27/08 03:47 PM
02/27/08 03:47 PM
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I hadn't anticipated this response to what I posted above. Interesting.
It is interesting to get a response that you hadn't anticipated. I find it perhaps more interesting to have a lack of response when one was anticipated.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Barry]
#114279
06/07/09 02:24 AM
06/07/09 02:24 AM
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maybe we do not lift our hands because we are in a "slumber"???
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Barry]
#114328
06/07/09 02:41 PM
06/07/09 02:41 PM
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New Member (Starting to Post)
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South Africa
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I'd not do it. And I'd feel mighty uncomfortable if it was being done. Of course, if the pastor is praying, and dedicating the congregation to God, like Solomon did, that would be a different matter. I've never felt the urge to. None of the great hymns give me any reason to. I've lifted up my heart though...
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: D R]
#114416
06/09/09 12:11 AM
06/09/09 12:11 AM
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maybe we do not lift our hands because we are in a "slumber"??? LOL That may very well be true. I've spent quite a bit of time, too much time, watching basketball with friends. You know what is often done when our team does something good? We jump up, lift our hands high, scream and shout in jubilation, cheer our team on, hug each other, etc. And if you've ever watched a pro game in person, you know that this is not limited to friends; perfect strangers do this with each other all the time. Why doesn't this happen in church? I can think of 3 possible reasons off the top of my head: 1) There are situations when such outward displays of jubilation is out of place. Church is one of those. 2) Maybe there's nothing being said or done that is as exciting as a basketball game. There are churches that are so devoid of life that something thrilling, such as the promise of an eternity of holiness with God, is out of place there. The norm there are the same old bland messages, if you can even call them messages, that we've all heard many times. I heard a sermon on clapping in church one time, where the preacher said that clapping in the Bible was limited to certain events, one of them being victory in war. I thought to myself, "Aren't we talking about victory in the war against self, sin, and Satan? Shouldn't we be clapping, then?" Then I realized, "No, I guess we're not. We just wasting our time rehashing the same useless stuff we always have." In short, there's just nothing to get excited about. 3) Maybe there's all sorts of exciting things going on, but the people are just too dull to notice. I preached a series one time where I ended with this thought: All have sinned, but we all can receive God's grace and become saints. Then they all sat there like bumps on a log! So I got on their cases for being so unresponsive to the Gospel promise. Then all the excuses came out about why they can't really stop from sinning. But from what I can tell, their problem was not that they could not stop sinning, but they did not want to stop sinning. They were still enjoying the pleasures of sin. And those in such a state are in no condition to rejoice when they hear God's precious promises.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Daryl]
#161142
02/01/14 08:53 AM
02/01/14 08:53 AM
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It is a terrible day that Satan's counterfeits frighten off SDA Christians. But, if we lift our hands in the spirit of Lamentations 3:41, it is a blessing to God.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Rick H]
#161171
02/02/14 12:51 AM
02/02/14 12:51 AM
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"No, we arent all living in sin, depending where the Holy Spirits work is at, we are letting go and becoming dead to sin."
Amen brother. One thing we must guard ever so much is the mistaken belief that "we are sinners, and just can't help it" attitude. We are told by our great King, "He overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be His God and he shall be My son." (Rev.21:7)
Overcome what? Sin. Does that mean we are sinless before Christ comes? No, but there must be an overcoming of knowing sins in our life. Repetitive sins do indeed provide evidence we haven't "overcome". In other words-- a new converted life is a must.
Ellen White gets even more specific, " Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul of every defilement." (Test.for the Church, vol. 5, p.214)
Again, the question is--what constitutes a spot or stain? It can be only a cherished sin we practice in our life. One that we do against His repeated warnings. Sadly, this warning system can break (as a car's brake system soon fails if we ignore the warning signs) and then we no longer know that our sinning is wrong, a very very bad position to come to.
The Good Shepherd works night and day to bring our path into His straight and narrow way. To have us stop our wrongs and sins.
"I know they works", says He that "walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks." It is known what opportunities have been slighted, how untiring have been the efforts of the Good Shepherd to search out those who were wandering in crooked ways, and bring them back to the path of safety and peace.Again and again God has called after the pleasure lovers; again and again He has flashed the light of His word across their path, that they might see their peril, and escape. But on and on they go, jesting and joking as they travel the broad road, until at length their probation is ended." (Ibid, p.435)
Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 02/02/14 12:54 AM.
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#161183
02/02/14 08:43 AM
02/02/14 08:43 AM
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The issue of lifting ones hands is a very important one.
What is the motivation in raising your hands? Do you do it in private prayer? Or is it only for show?
Are you lifting up yourself or begging for God to have mercy on you? Do you see the Father or just the ceiling when you do it?
I would say this in the name of Christ, the act of raising hands makes those hands no purer.
If the act of raising hands is not mixed with the need to fall to your knees, then it better be in praise for a blessing.
So MANY people go to christian rock concerts and, like the mosh pit or wave in secular auditoriums, they all have their hands in the air. Like it is manditory.
I am ashamed of those events because the hearts of the people go to the stage not to the heavens. The total spirit of anti-Christ.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#161184
02/02/14 09:06 AM
02/02/14 09:06 AM
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And this is hard for me to say because I have many friends in the Christian rock industry. They don't like it much that I am so very inflexable on this subject but what can you say about standing up against the Omega of apostacy?
If you go to a Christian concert and it's not a worship service, treat it like entertainment and you're good to go. If you're trying to make entertainment into a worship service, this is robbing God of true devotion and renaming something common into something holy. Strange fire.
Hymnals should never lose their support.
The test for churches is this... do they sing to you, or do they lead you to sing (actual biblical singing, psalms and hymns)? Does it make you want to tap your feet in celebration, or bow in reverence?
Does anyone think there is an actual need for celebration in these last days of the Atonement?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#161246
02/03/14 04:35 PM
02/03/14 04:35 PM
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Hey, I never thought of that. If you are a performer up front and look out and see a bunch of people's hands raised, you would feel pretty good about yourself. I bet the people don't realize what they are doing. I saw one woman last Sabbath raising a hand and I never knew her to do that before. But maybe influence from other venues has influenced her?
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: kland]
#161251
02/03/14 09:12 PM
02/03/14 09:12 PM
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As a ex-professional musician It is a very powerful thing to be an artist who has people looking at them with their hands raised, then coming up and telling you how powerful the music was. It is down right scary.
That is where I am coming from.
I used to work for Ozzy Osbourne on two seperate tours as a monitor sound engineer. I have seen people get on their knees with their hands raised in front of him, and they said they had a religious experience. Should we believe them?
The raising of hands should be a private ordeal, not a public one, and only when you are absolutely sure that your heart is stayed on God, not anything else.
I once raised my hands before at a baptism and God corrected me by helping me realize where my heart was while doing it.He showed me that I wasn't really thinking about Him, seeing myself from His perspective. I was being corrected harshly for letting my vanity get in the way, God was sad.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#161252
02/03/14 09:18 PM
02/03/14 09:18 PM
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Oh yeah, and if you raise your hands as a witness to a baptism, you better make sure that God would approve of the baptism, for it's a very bad thing to give your testimony to the surity of the readiness of the candidate if he is still holding on to sin. VERY IMPORTANT!!!!
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Is Lifting Hands OK in Church?
[Re: Tom Wetmore]
#179082
01/19/16 03:28 AM
01/19/16 03:28 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by debbie: <strong> ... If you want to do this in your SDA church, then DO NOT call it an SDA Church. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Debbie, I have seen you express this basic sentiment about just about everything that you are uncomforatable with or with which you disagree. At times you have expressed it bluntly that folks who do such-and-such are not welcome or should go elsewhere. This kind of exclusive not-in-my-backyard mentaility is a great evangelism tool which provoked Jesus to say of the Pharisees, "You travel to the ends of the earth to make a convert and end up making him a worse son of hell than you are." I am most greatful that you are not in charge and are not making the rules... Tom <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> And how are those in charge and making the rules doing any better? We desecrate the Sabbath and persecute Sabbath keepers in the SPD. We promote WOPE in defiance of three GC session decisions against it. We want LGBT's comfortable in the church. And the list good on... debbie is not doing that bad at all!
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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![[Caution]](graemlins/caution.gif)
I am asking you all to please stop the foolish talk. 
Yeha. Get those hands up and put them together. 
