What are some of their beliefs?

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In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

I have been studying this group for quite some time, as I have someone in my family who is a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I believe that posting this material will be helpful to anyone browsing through this forum, who may be interested in sorting it all out a bit.

I am currently studying with a Jehovah's Witness elder & wife from a local Kingdom Hall, mostly for the purpose of getting my facts about their beliefs straight too, as that is important.

I will post in small increments, so as to not overload anyone with too long of a post. I am enclosing the material just as it is being presented to the people I am studying with, and only minor editing to protect privacy.

To Our Jehovah’s Witness Friends:

I am hoping you can tell me if I have correctly represented the Jehovah’s Witness’ viewpoints on this subject...as I mentioned, I am doing a lot of study on the subject of who God is because I have a brother who is a Jehovah’s Witness, and I am trying to discern exactly what they believe…In this enclosed study, I have compared what they believe, (as I understand it); to what I believe, as a Seventh Day Adventist, with the hope of any Bible clarifications you could offer on the many points I have raised.

I realize it may take some time to go through it all but I am sincere in my quest. You are certainly welcome to share this document with any of your Kingdom Hall members who may also be willing and able to reply to such material, that is a little more in depth than the average.

Part One: “Jesus, The Son Of God.”

I will do within this study a few brief comparisons with the NWT, using some of the KJV texts which I will be referring to in this study. I do not agree with this translation of the Bible; but many of the ideas which contradict the Trinity doctrine; I think, come from the NWT way of thinking. This will be an important line of study both for Jehovah’s Witnesses, and any others who believe that Jesus was/is a created being.

I hope and pray that you won’t take any of this personally; and that we can just take it theologically! I really would like to look into all this material more with you. I think that the general body of believers of Jehovah’s Witnesses who teach that Jesus was a created being; that He was not “eternal” or “co-eternal,” are very sincere people; and they really love God. The main earmark of a true Christian is a loving and lovable Christian! I have certainly experienced that from some people who teach that Jesus was only a created being.

I have the expectation that whatever you say in reply to this study, will be your theological opinion; not a personal opinion about me. I don’t have any concerns about being scrutinized, or critisized in any Biblical way. The Bible says: “For we can do nothing against the Truth; but for the Truth.” (2 Cor.13:8). Truth has nothing to fear from an honest examination. In explaining your points to me, I have no problem with being referred to as “Christendom,” etc. My family member refers to me as that now. I am most interested in what the Bible has to say on who Jesus is, and what He should mean to Christians today. Anyone who can discuss this topic with me is welcome.

I am going to use a number of Jehovah’s Witness publications as reference points in this study because they describe most forcefully, what I consider to be the falsehoods about Jesus being a created being, rather than being “co-eternal.”. Please refer to the following list of abbreviations for JW publications as I refer to them in this article:

1/ LTG - Let God Be True
2/ PL - From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained
3/ LKC - Let Your Kingdom Come
4/ LF - You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth
5/ T - The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life
6/ NWT - New World Translation Of The Holy Scriptures
7/ JW - Jehovah’s Witness
8/ WT - Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society

I will be happy to address any and all questions/concerns you may have as you sift through this study. Unless otherwise noted, I will use the KJV version throughout this study. An interesting note at this point would be to say that even if you were to use the New World Translation of the Bible, which has been changed to reflect certain view points, you could prove that Jesus was eternal and that He was not a created being. This; I believe, will come out in my enclosed study notes.

I will look forward to this as being the beginning of a mutually beneficial study of God’s Word; leading to a closer walk with Him; and to increased harmony between what we can collectively believe, in common, and what we should witness about Jesus, the Son Of God.

Part Two: Jesus: The Indispensable Man

Acts 4:12 - “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

Whoever the person is that this text is referring to; they must be indispensable...The Bible, in any language, and in every translation tells us that we are saved by a name.

What Is This Saving Name?

(Mat.1:21). “And thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.” (KJV). “She will give birth to a son; and you must call his name Jesus, for He will save his people from their sins.” (NWT). Acts 4:12, in any version of the Bible, is referring to “Jesus Christ, the Nazarene,” (NWT), that is mentioned in Acts 4:10.

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"...you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3

DavidTBattler

The name “Jesus” in the New Testament is exactly the same as the name “Joshua” in the Old Testament. In both cases, this name means “Jehovah, the Savior.” This is very fitting, since Jesus, the Son of God, would obviously have to have the same name as His Father. It’s a family name. As Jesus puts it: “...We are one...” (Jo.17:22).

Jesus, the Son of God is specifically identified throughout the Bible as Jehovah; and as we have just noted, God the Father has the same name as His Son: Clearly, the name “Jehovah,” is not just limited to “God the Father,” in the Bible. One has to read each verse in proper, intended context to see what Person the name of “Jehovah” in a given verse would be referring to:

Heb.1:1-2: As the Son of God, Jesus has the name of the Father. “God, who at sundry times, and in diverse manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds.”

Jesus created the world in partnership with the Father. As Jehovah the Father said: “Let US make man in our own image.” What did He mean by “US?” and “OUR?” (Gen.1:26, 9:6, Jo.14:23).

Today, God has “spoken unto us by His Son.” Notice that BOTH God and His Son are mentioned here. Note the last two phrases again: “Whom He hath appointed Heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds.” (Heb.1:1-2). It is clear from this that God the Father made the worlds by His Son. Two are mentioned here. Jesus created, but He Himself was not created.

The Bible says that Jesus was “made after the power of an endless life;.” (Heb.7:16), that is, He is eternal in nature, and was not created. This verse is in the context of an appointment, or designated role, rather than being in a “made” role, as in the context of being “created.” It is obvious from the Bible context of Heb.7:16, (and many other places), that the text is definitely referring to Jesus, as we read in a verse following: “by so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.” (Heb.7:22). Verse 22 was referring to verse 16 here, in any Bible translation.

Many places in the Bible specifically mention Jesus as Jehovah, which means: “Jehovah is the Savior.”

1/ John the Baptist would prepare the way of Jehovah: Isa.40:3 - “Prepare ye the way of the Lord...” [“Jehovah,” or “the existing One”].

And as we can see; John the Baptist did prepare the way for the 1st coming of Jesus:

Mat.3:1-3, Luke 1:76 “In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying: ‘Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ For this is he that was spoken of by Isaiah the prophet, saying: ‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness - prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His paths straight.’” And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways.’”

2/ Isaiah prophesied that Jehovah would be a Stone of stumbling, and a Rock of defense.
Isa.8:13-14, 28:16. (See also Ps.118:22). In Luke 20:17-18, Jesus applies this prophecy to Himself.

3/ Isa.44:6, and 48:12 refer to Jehovah as “the first and the last,” but, the book of Revelation applies this to the Son. Rev.1:17-18 tells us that Jesus is “the first and the last, I am He that liveth and was dead...” God the Father was never dead was He?

4/ Isa.40:10 tells us that Jehovah will come, and “His reward is with Him.” In Rev.22;12, Jesus applies this to Himself when He says: “And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with Me...”

5/ Speaking of Jehovah, the prophet Isaiah says: “I am God, and there is none else,” and “that unto me shall every knee bow, and every tongue shall swear.” (Isa.45:22-23).

Atleast twice in His writings the divinely inspired Apostle Paul applies this prophecy to Jesus: Rom.14:10-12, Phil.2:10-11.

6/ Jehovah is the Judge. (Joel 3:12). It is Jesus that will execute judgment: Mat.25:31-32, Jo.5:27).

7/ Jehovah will raise the dead: (1 Sam.2:6). It is made clear that CHRIST HIMSELF will call the dead from their graves. (Jo.11:25).

NOTE: Jesus was the great “I Am,” of the Old Testament. When Moses asked for His name, Jesus said: “I Am that I Am...Thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent Me unto you.” (Ex.3:14).

Jesus also said to the Pharisees: “Before Abraham was; I AM.” Jo.8:58.

Other “I AM” statements of Jesus are found in the following texts:

“I AM the bread of life:” Jo.6:35

“I AM he:” Jo.4:26

“I AM the Light of the world:” Jo.8:12

“I AM the door:” Jo.10:9

“I AM the good Shepherd:” Jo.10:11

“I AM the resurrection and the life:” Jo.1:25
Today, we can rest in the fact that the identity of The Son Of God remains intact. “We have this Hope!”

This study will uncover the exciting Bible Truth about how Jesus had two natures, and this will explain all common objections to Him being “co-eternal” with the Father.

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"...you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3

DavidTBattler

I have a lot of contact with Jehovah Witnesses, and I try to discuss what we have in common with them, but the disagreement about their view of the nature of Christ as a "lesser God" than Jehovah is where I can't agree.

They do agree the dead "sleep" and the body and soul together make up a living being-but they believe there will be a second chance for unbelievers. They believe that the wicked will be destroyed, not tortured forever in hell.

They believe the "law" was done away with in Christ, and the days of creation were 7000 years long.

Another point;
The JW's have had a lot of important court cases for religious liberty in the US..
They do not salute the US flag, because they understand it's an act of worship. You have to respect them for their standing for what they believe.

(The blood transfusion thing I just don't get, though)

[This message has been edited by Rose (edited November 09, 2001).]

That is another topic within this forum.

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In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Glad you are enjoying the study. There is lots more to come.

You make a goe point that the JW denomination has some strengths, that we can applaud; and I believe Daryl has made a good point as well.

After this study is done; I will present some study notes on the 1914 date they have as a prophetic time line...so we will be busy in this thread for quite a while.

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"...you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3

DavidTBattler

I also have a couple of interesting things to share here which I will try and remember to do especially if nobody else shares it first.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited November 10, 2001).]

I will look forward to learning more on this topic-

I have read on the web on an ex-witness site that Adventists and JW's are both descended from the Millerite movement of 1844, which I wasn't aware of- is that a true statement? Here's the link:
http://www.cftf.com/online/1998AprJunp12.html

[This message has been edited by Rose (edited November 10, 2001).]

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

When I confronted the JW elders about this, they would not admit to this book as being representative of what they currently believed, and today, if you were to ask a JW elder about this; they would likely deny it.

I will see if I can get the book, or the name of the book, and it's page number, from a friend in another province who has the book. But the JW denomination has tried really hard to cover up this book; and for the most part, have been successful.

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"...you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3

DavidTBattler

This study will uncover the exciting Bible Truth about how Jesus had two natures, and this will explain all common objections to Him being “co-eternal” with the Father.

Part Four: A Prevailing Theme:

One of the dominant themes of the entire Bible is Who Jesus Christ is. Jesus even said: (“You are searching the Scriptures, because you think that by means of them, you will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that testify of Me.”). Jo.5:39. NWT. The importance of this is highlighted again by Jesus in His prayer to the Father: “This is eternal life; that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” (Jo.17:3). So, it is very important that we seek to know exactly who God and Jesus Christ are, and what the nature of the relationship between the two of them is.

That’s why Jesus asked Peter the question: “Who do you say that I am?” (Mat.16:15). In reply, Peter confessed: “You are the Christ: The Son of the living God!” (Mat.16:16). God asks the same question of us today. Who do you think He is?

When Thomas came to believe in the resurrected Jesus, he worshipped him as: “my Lord, and my God!” (Jo.20:28).

In revealing the true identity of Jesus Christ, the Bible writers were consistent in presenting BOTH His human nature, and His divine nature. (See also Heb.2:14-18, and Heb.1:10-12). Though Jesus was in the form of a man, while on earth, He was God. He simply chose not to exercise His divinity: and to assume a different role than before.

“Who, being in the form of God thought it not robbery, [a thing to be grasped], to be EQUAL to God. But made Himself, [chose to be] of no reputation, and took [chose] upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. And, being found in fashion, as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Therefore, God also has highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is ABOVE EVERY NAME, [including Jehovah], that AT THE NAME OF JESUS, every knee should bow...” (Phil.2:6-10).

Jehovah’s Witnesses And The Nature Of Christ:

It is unfortunate that the Watchtower teaches their adherents that Jesus is not God. Instead, they mostly emphasize only the Scriptures that speak about His human ministry. Any Scriptures that appear to establish the divine nature of Jesus are either ignored in their publications, or, explained away as insignificant, or mistranslated. They then proceed to use their own, “special Bible.” (NWT) to prove their points...Although, it is interesting to see them use a Catholic Bible, or the NIV when it suits them. (For eg. “The Divine Name That Will Endure Forever”, pg.3).

JW’s claim that before Jesus came to this earth, He did pre-exist, not as God, but as “a mighty spirit person.” (LF 58). They base this teaching on Bible texts that refer to Jesus as the “only begotten,” Son Of God (Jo.3:16), the “firstborn of all creation,” (Col.1:15), the “beginning of the creation by God,” (Rev.3:14, NWT).

Once God created Jesus, they say, He created everything else through Jesus. (See LF 58). Based on their own, unique translation, which is a gross mistranslation, of Jo.1:1-3, JW’s concede in a roundabout way that Jesus was elevated to the position of “a God.” But, they maintain that Jesus is a lesser God, never to be equated with Almighty God, Jehovah.

The Watchtower concludes that Jesus is only the “spirit leader of God’s kingdom,” but Jesus is not God Himself in any way. Jehovah’s Witnesses are taught to believe that the trinitarian doctrine of “God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit,” is heathen in it’s origin. (LGT 101).

Does The Bible FULLY agree with the Watchtower’s position on the nature of Christ?

No. It does not. Jesus Himself declared that God was His Father, therefore portraying Himself, and His nature as being equal with God. (Jo.5:17). Like the Jews of Bible times, the Watchtower astutely denies this claim of Christ. (See Jo.5:18).

Phil.2:6 also very clearly identifies Jesus as being equal to God the Father.

The Bible writers attribute to God certain qualities and titles that are shared by no other being. In the Bible, the very thing that establishes God as different in kind from all other creation, is this list of special, divine qualities and titles that are specific and unique, only to Him. In the Bible, Jesus also has the exact same qualities...Jesus is eternal, the Creator, the forgiver of our sins, and the everlasting Father. Without such Bible based, quality descriptions, Jesus would be like the JW’s say: He would not be God. He would indeed be a created being; but these, and other, similar titles establish and define the divine nature of Jesus as being exactly the same as “God,” or “Jehovah.”

Note in the chart below the persuasive Bible evidence which the Bible provides to illustrate the equality of God the Father, and His Son, Jesus, the Christ:

“from everlasting” Ps.90:2 “Jehovah” God: the Father
“from everlasting” Micah 5:2, Mat.2:4-6 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

His years have no end Ps.102:27 “Jehovah” God: the Father
“His years have no end Heb.1:12 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

“the first and the last” Isa.44:6 “Jehovah” God: the Father
“the first and the last” Rev.1:17 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

“Alpha and Omega” Rev.21:6 “Jehovah” God: the Father
“Alpha and Omega” Rev.22:10-16 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

“the beginning and the end” Rev.21:6 “Jehovah” God: the Father
“the beginning and the end” Rev.22:10-16 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

remains the same Ps.102:27 “Jehovah” God: the Father
“remains the same” Heb.1:12 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

“Creator” Ps.102:25 “Jehovah” God: the Father
“Creator” Heb.1:10 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

called God Isa.54:5 “Jehovah” God: the Father
called God Jo.20:28 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

called Father Mat.23:9 “Jehovah” God: the Father
called Father Isa.9:6 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

called Lord Isa.50:7 “Jehovah” God: the Father
called Lord Rom.10:9 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

worshipped Ex.34:14 “Jehovah” God: the Father
worshipped Jo.9:30 & 20:28 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

King Of Kings, Lord of Lords:1 Tim.6: 13-16 “Jehovah” God: the Father
“King of Kings, Lord of Lords: Rev.19:16

Savior: Isa.43:11 “Jehovah” God: the Father
Savior: 2 Pet.1:1, 11 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

Forgives sins: Isa.43:25 “Jehovah” God: the Father
Forgives sins: Luke 5:24 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

Redeemer: Isa.43:14 “Jehovah” God: the Father
Redeemer: Titus 2:13-14 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

Knows the heart of man: 2 Chron.6:30 “Jehovah” God: the Father
knows what is in man: Jo.2:24, 25 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

in God’s form: Phil.2:6 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)
the express image of God: Heb.1:3 “Jehovah” God: the Christ (Son)

Based on the Biblical revelation that the Father and the Son share the same divine qualities, and the same titles that distinguish God from all of creation, the true Christian today will rightfully address Jesus, as did Thomas of old: “My Lord, and my God!” (Jo.20:28).

"...you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3

DavidTBattler

[This message has been edited by DavidTBattler (edited November 18, 2001).]

As human beings, or, as created beings; we can know that we are not God, because we had a beginning, and, therefore, we are not eternal. We are a part of creation, not the Creator. While we can forgive people for sinning against us personally, we have no authority to forgive other people of their sins. Each person must answer to God for their own sins. (Eccl.12:14).

For another example: I am the father of two sons, but I am not the everlasting Father of all creation. These facts force me to accept the painful truth that other people sometimes remind me of: that I am not God!

It is comforting to me to know that the same thing is true of every other created being in the entire universe. We are creatures. We were created. By Bible definition, we are not God. Nor are we lesser gods. The Bible does not know anything about greater and lesser gods. In the Bible, there is only the one, true God: even a JW would agree to that;
“For I am God, and there is none other.” (Isaiah 45:22).

Everything else is a dependent creature, in God’s creation. The very striking revelation of Scripture, is that the qualities and titles that identify Jehovah
as God the Father, are the very same qualities and titles that are attributed to Jesus Christ. There is no difference between the two - in the Bible.

As I just mentioned above, Jesus’ claim that He had divine qualities was so apparent to the Jewish leaders of Bible times, that they rightly accused Him of making Himself God; and they then tried to stone Jesus to death for “blasphemy.” (See Jo.5:17-19, 10:31-33).

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"...you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3

DavidTBattler

I don't have this book published in English but I was able to prepare some materials from it in English to help our brothers and sisters who could find an opportunity to witness to witnesses. I had a chance to interview personally Raymond Franz, who is a former member of the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society and author of two books where he presents many very interesting and eye-opening details of the WTS' operations and ideology. His uncle, Frederick Franz, was the world president of that organization and the translator of the New World Translation of the Bible.

Some weeks ago I had the opportunity of presenting a program I used to promote in Brazil in an Afro-American church in my town. It is made up of a sermon on the theme of the Trinity during the Sabbath morning hour (titled "The Science of Eternity"). The church even filmed it and prepared a video with the complete message.

In the afternoon I delivered a lecture, illustrated with charts on the blackboard where I present some historical and doctrinal aspects of that heretical movement. I prepared a kit of printed materials reproducing the charts, which I offered at the end of the program.

Well, I don't want to sell things here, but anyone who could feel that the material would be of interest just contact me I will gladly send the electronic files for these charts. Unhappily I don't have the sermon in electronic files format, but its audio and video, which I could send if requested via regular mail.

azeniltogb@aol.com or otavson@hotmail.com

a) Authorized King James Version: KJV
b) New World Translation: NWT
c) Septuagint: LXX
d) Others As Noted
e) Desire Of Ages - DA (this is not a Bible - it is a Bible commentary).

“The Name” Part 6

by David T. Battler

John 1:1-3, 14, 18

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being, that has come into being...And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of Grace and Truth...No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father; He has explained Him.” (KJV).

Verses 1, right through to verse 18 constitute a prologue to the book of John, that deals with the Word of God Incarnate.

In verse 1, we see the first phrase: “in the beginning.” This Greek phrase does not have what is called the “definite article;” but it is still very definite in it’s meaning. (

The “Definite Article” “the,” is found only in Greek, but there is no “indefinite article ” a” or “an” in the Greek language, as there is in English. There are many reasons in Greek, why a definite article may or may not be used; and they very rarely parallel English usage., but, frequently, the presence or absence of the definite article is very critical to the understanding of a given Scripture passage & it’s conceptual/contextual intent by the writer).

If the “definite article” were used in the original Greek, then, it would tend to imply some particular point in time, or a “beginning.”

Without the “definite article,” and staying within the intended context of verses 1-3, this phrase then denotes the most remote time conceivable...before the creation of “all things.” (Vs.3)., before any and every other “beginning:” in other words, eternity past.

It is really interesting to note how the original account of creation opens with the equivalent Hebrew Words...”In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.” These Words remind us of the fact that everything human has a beginning. As Genesis

1 sets forth the nature of creation, and the fact that man was originally formed in the image of God, so the prologue to the Gospel of John sets forth the nature of the Creator,

(vs.1-4).and the means by which God purposed to make possible the re-creation of His image in man. (Vs.5-14).

Genesis 1:1 refers to “the beginning” of this world; but the “Word” of Jo.1:1-4 is the Creator of all things, and therefore, antedates the “beginning” found in Gen.1:1. Thus, “the beginning” of Jo.1:1 has to be prior to “the beginning” of Gen.1:1. When everything that had a beginning - when everything that was created had begun; the “Word” alread was.

“Was:” “en,” (Greek), which is a form of the verb “eimi.” “to be.” This expresses continuity of existence or of being. The “Word was,” throughout all eternity, “with God.” He never became such via creation. But, in time, the Word “was made, (literally became), “egeneto,” (Greek), a form of “genomai,” meaning “to become,” expressing action completed at a given time, See Gal.4:4 flesh.” (Jo.1:14).

Therefore, Christ has always been with God, (Jo.1:1, Heb.1:8), but, in contrast, Christ became man. Not in the context of being created, but in the context of changing roles (Jo.1:14, Phil.2:7). Therefore, both in the Words, and in their form, John stresses the continous, timeless, unlimited existence of Christ, prior to His incarnation.

In eternity past, there was no point before which it could be said that the Word was not in existence. The Son was with the Father from all eternity. There never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. Compare Rev.22:13, where Jesus proclaims Himself as “the beginning and the end.” He is “the same yesterday, and today, and forever.” (Heb.13:8).

The Greek word “genomai,” as used in vs.14, of Jo.1, also appears in vs.3, speaking of the creation of all things. (It literally reads, “by Him, everything became”), and Jesus declared: “Before Abraham was, [Gr. Ginomai, literally “became,” or, “came to be.”], “I am.” [Gr.eimi]. (Jo. 8:58).

The same contrast appears in the LXX of Ps.90:2: “Before the mountains came into being, [Gr.ginomai], “from age to age, Thou art, [Gr.eimi], “God.”

“En” occurs three times in Jo.1:1:

a) first, of the eternity of the Word
b) then, of His eternal fellowship with the Father
c) and, finally, of His eternal equality of nature with the Father

Jo.1:2 reaffirms the duration of this state of being throughout all eternity: “This one [Word] was in the beginning with God.” (NWT). “The same was in the beginning with God.” (KJV).

“Word:” (Gr. Logos - “saying, speech, narrative, account, treatise,” with emphasis on the systematic, meaningful arrangement of the thoughts expressed...

Here, John chooses under divine guidance, to use the term “Logos,” as a designation for Christ, who came to reveal the character, mind, and the will of the Father; even as speech is the expression of ideas.
In the LXX, the Word “Logos” is commonly used of both creative, (Ps.33:6, Gen.1:3, 6, 9), etc.; and communicative aspects: Jer.1:4, Ez.1:3, Amos 3:1), two different expressions of the divine mind and will. No doubt, these OT uses of Logos were in the mind of John when he wrote this prologue to the book of John.

God has expressed His divine will & purpose, through creation, and through divine revelation: now. (Jo.1:14).

He has done so by the Incarnation [change in roles] of Jesus, His supreme and perfect revelation. (Jo.14:6). “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”

The Word “logos,” therefore epitomizes the dominant theme of the book of John, (see chapt.14:8-10), and in vs.18, John states his reason for speaking of Christ as the Word [logos]: Jesus came to “declare” the Father. As a designation for Christ, the Word logos is used in the New Testament only by John, in his gospel, (chapt.1), as well as in 1 Jo.1:1, and Rev.19:13.

The term logos identifies Christ as the incarnate expression of the will of the Father, that all people should be saved. (1 Tim.2:4). Christ, is God’s thought made audible.
“With God:” “pros ton theon” The word “pros” denotes close association and fellowship.

Had John meant simply that, in the beginning, the Word was in close proximity to God; John might have been expected to use either the word “para,” (beside), or the word “meta,” meaning “with.”
But, John meant much more than either of these words could ever convey, as when he wrote: “We have an advocate with [Gr. “Pros], the Father,
(1 Jo.2:1), - not in the sense that Jesus is merely in the Father’s presence; but that He is closely associated with the Father in the work of salvation. “Pros” is used in the same context in Heb.4:13: “with Whom we have to do,” that is, “with Whom we have dealings.” The Word here implies a close, personal fellowship in an enterprise of mutual interest and concern. Compare Jo.17:5.

The fact that the Word was “with God,” that is, with the Father, purposely declares Him to be a being altogether distinct from the Father.

As the context makes clear, the Word was associated with God, in a unique and exclusive sense. The Word was “with God,” in the eternity past, but He became “flesh,” in order to be with “us,” (see Jo.1:14); Jesus was Immanual, [God with us], (Mat.1:23). It’s not really possible to fully understand the import of this Incarnation, except within the background of the eternal pre-existence of Christ as God, and as closely associated with God. (Compare also Rom.1:20-25).
“Word Was God:”

The inherent absence, in the Greek, of the definite article, before the word “God,” makes it impossible to render the statement as “God was the Word.” To limit it like that would equate God with the Word, and thus limit deity strictly to the Word, which some denominations do - and they will only baptize in the name of Jesus. The two terms “Word,” and “God,” are not altogether interchangeable. It would be no more proper to say that “God was the Word,” (1 Jo.4:16), or “flesh was made the word.” (Jo.1:14).

Although in this passage of Jo.1:1, the Word “God,” lacks the definite article, it is still definite. The statement cannot be translated as “the Word was a God,” (NWT), as if the Word was one God among many other gods...In Greek, the absence of the article often emphasizes quality expressed by, or inherent in, a word.

Accordingly, John here in Jo.1:1, is intending to say that the Word partook in the very essence of Deity, that He was divine in the ultimate and absolute sense. As a result; in this one statement, John denies that the Word was either a God, one among many, or, the God, as if He alone were God.

In fact, the Old Testament writers were acutely aware of this as we see in Deut.6:4, “Hear O Israel: ‘The Lord our God, is one Lord.” The word “one” here, is not in the singular sense. It is the Gr. Word “eechad,” meaning things like “altogether,” or “alike.” The verse would sound rather silly to say : ”The Jehovah, our Jehovah, is one Jehovah.” In this text, the phrase “is one God,” is intended in the plural, or collective sense; meaning more than one - but all equal.

In John’s exciting prologue, (Jo.1:1 - 1:18), John states the objective that guided him in writing the Gospel of John: namely, to present the Man, Jesus, as God incarnate. (compare 1 Jo.1:1). From incident
to incident, and from discourse to discourse; John faithfully pursues this objective.

In his conclusion he observes that his purpose in writing, was to lead others to “believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,” (Jo.20:30-31), and that by believing they “might have life through His name.”

In his introduction to his first epistle, John again refers to his personal experience with “the Word,” (1 Jo.1:1-3). Likewise, the opening words of the Revelation declare it to be “The Revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Rev.1:1). Christ is eternally God in the supreme, and unqualified sense of the term. Evidences on the deity of Christ are many, and irrefutable. These may be summed up briefly by the following texts:
a) The Life Jesus Lived: Heb.4:15, 1 Pet.2:22
b) The Words Jesus Spoke: Jo.7:46, 14:10, Mat.7:29
c) The Miracles Jesus Wrought: Jo.5:20, 14:11
d) The Prophecies That Jesus Himself Fulfilled: Luke 24:26, 27, 44, Jo.5:39, DA 799
e) See also, DA 406-407 for a good Bible commentary on the divinity of Jesus

I knew that we (SDAs) do not teach that Jesus was created, nor that He was or is JUST an angel. But, I didn't know what texts the JWs use to say He was created. I know a lady who is a JW, and, at times we have talked, mostly on what we could meet our minds on. So, I called her, and asked for the texts they use about Jesus being a created being. She gave me Col.1:13, and Prov.8:22,25. To me, those texts didn't say what she thought they did. So, I was thinking you had a thread on here about the JWs, so I was delighted when I checked it out, and it was (is) active today. I have already read on here some of the things that she told me, and some things that I feel will be helpful in studying with anyone who may be comparing the SDAs with the JWs.
She agreed that she believed that at the beginning of the JWs, they had used some of the studies the SDAs have.

The JW lady is a lovely person, and, we agree not to argue about things on which we disagree, for, I cannot see that is productive. I really did not know, though, that there had ever been a time when the JWs had used any part of our beliefs. I was glad I found it out, for the other young lady I am studying with is convinced that the SDAs and the JWs are still close in beliefs.

Thank you for this study. I believe it will be helpful to many. There may be a number of people who are confused as to whether we hold the same beliefs on more than "the state of the dead." (I am not sure if there is anything else they believe the same or not.) But, I look forward to keeping up with this study as it progresses.

In Christ's Love,

Dora

I will post part seven in a couple of days or so.

I will pray for this JW contact you have made.

Part 7
Jehovah’s Witnesses And Bible Translation Renderings

Often, the WT, not unlike many others, are likely to ignore what may look like small differences, between the way a given Bible word is used; that is, a person could import into a particular passage, a meaning discovered elsewhere in the Bible, without really noticing that in one of the latter passages, there is a modification by a particular phrase, or by some syntactical [linguistic] feature. (Preposition, article, inflection, etc.).

The use of “the Word,” [“Logos”] in the very special case of Jo.1:1, is really a specific meaning that cannot be mingled indiscriminately with other cases, simply because they also contain the phrase “the Word.” [“Logos”]. In other words, a simple syntactic relation, like the adding of the definite article, [“was”] and the absence of other qualifications, can establish a much different semantic field, just as much as could the use of another word in it’s place.

A concentrated study, on one word, seldom leads to the very important examination of semantically related, but different meanings of words in the Bible. The biggest danger, is the confusing of a given word, with the actual reality. For eg.:the Spanish word “llave,” is used in some Latin American countries for three different objects...key, wrench, and faucett. How could anyone conclude that Latin Americans use only one instrument for opening doors, working on pipe, and drawing water? And yet, it is not uncommon to see people arrive at some theological conclusions on similar grounds.

Unfortunately, this is what the Watchtower has done with a number of words in the Bible. The most commonly known examples would be their use of the words “Jehovah,” and “cross.”. Their specious, word-bound approach with the words Jehovah, and cross, are in direct oppostion to true Christianity’s Bible study system of the over-all conceptual/contextual meaning of the passages that deal with these two words.

This study examines more specifically the use of the word “Jehovah,” by the WT; but we will also look at a quick example of how the semantic nature of a given Bible passage - does not always determine the exact meaning of a word. (word-bound approach). Contextual/conceptual aspects that better relate the author’s intent come into play to uncover the richness and depth of God’s Word.

For eg., in Isa.1:10-15, God says things like: “to what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices,” (vs.11), “Bring no more vain oblations,” and yet, the Bible declares in Ps.50:5, “Gather My saints together unto Me; those that have made a covenant unto Me by sacrifice. Going strictly by semantics and “original word meanings,” it might be possible to say that God doesn’t want us to sacrifice anything any more; (Isa.1:10-15), but is that what God is saying? The word “cross” will be dealt with in another study, but we will now take a look at the use of God’s name. Should it always be “Jehovah?”

The Watch Tower’s View:

“The Lord’ - Equivalent Of Jehovah?
To remove God’s distinctive personal name [Jehovah] from the Bible, and substitute a title such as ‘Lord,’ or ‘God,’ makes the text weak and inadequate in many ways.”

( see
http://www.watchtower.org/library/na/new_testament.htm).

The Biblical View:
The Bible never has to worry about quoting the latest, greatest professor, or scholar; nor does it need to worry about wrestling with semantics, in favor of just dealing with context and actual intent of the author of a given Bible text.

Seventh Day Adventists Believe:

“God, the eternal Son, became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him, all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also, truly man, Jesus, the Christ.

He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God’s power, and was attested as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and died on the cross voluntarily for our sins, and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary, in our behalf.

He will come again in glory, for the final deliverance of His people, and the restoration of all things..”

How could/can this incarnation bring to us personally, “salvation,” and “eternal life?” What effects did this incarnation have on the Son? How could God become a human being; and why was/is it necessary?

One thing for sure…The Bible boldly asserts a profound Truth about Jesus, in Jo.1:14 which declares: “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”

Earlier, in the same chapter, it says: “In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God; and the Word was God.” (Jo.1:1).

This alone tells us that Jesus was BOTH divine and human, in His nature. The two natures of Jesus Christ were COMBINED, making the incarnation of the Son of God a great mystery to mortal ears indeed. Scripture calls God’s being manifested in His human nature, “the mystery of Godliness.” (1 Tim.3:16).

Jesus, the Creator of many worlds, in whom was ALL the fullness of the Godhead, became the helpless little babe in a manger! The Bible tells us how Jesus was far superior to any of the other angels, and that Jesus was equal with the Father; and yet, Jesus chose the vulnerability of our human nature!

It is not the easiest thing in the world to grasp, our mortal minds can only take in so much. But as we study this important topic, let us remember that: “The secret things belong to the Lord our God; but those things which are revealed, belong to us and our children.” (Deut.29:29). Maybe we can’t know everything about this subject; but, we can know enough:

ED.028.002
"The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, . . . full of grace and truth." "In Him was life; and the life was the light of men." John 1:14, R.V.; 1:4. The life and the death of Christ, the price of our redemption, are not only to us the promise and pledge of life, not only the means of opening again to us the treasures of wisdom: they are a broader, higher revelation of His character than even the holy ones of Eden knew.”

It is truly amazing, what Jesus did, and who He was/is:

AA.472.001
“ The Son of God stooped to uplift the fallen. For this He left the sinless worlds on high, the ninety and nine that loved Him, and came to this earth to be "wounded for our transgressions" and "bruised for our iniquities." Isaiah 53:5. He was in all things made like unto His brethren.

He became flesh, even as we are. He knew what it meant to be hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He was a stranger and a sojourner on the earth--in the world, but not of the world; tempted and tried as men and women of today are tempted and tried, yet living a life free from sin. Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate of others, He represented the character of God. "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, . . . full of grace and truth." John 1:14.

This is where our topic gets quite exciting!

His experience is to be our’s:

AA.520.002
“Thus it had been with Peter and his fellow disciples. Christ was the revealer of truth to the world. By Him the incorruptible seed--the word of God--was sown in the hearts of men. But many of the most precious lessons of the Great Teacher were spoken to those who did not then understand them. When, after His ascension, the Holy Spirit brought His teachings to the remembrance of the disciples, their slumbering senses awoke.

The meaning of these truths flashed upon their minds as a new revelation, and truth, pure and unadulterated, made a place for itself. Then the wonderful experience of His life became theirs. The Word bore testimony through them, the men of His appointment, and they proclaimed the mighty truth, "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, . . . full of grace and truth." "And of His fullness have all we received, and grace for grace." John 1:14, 16.

Satan has always tried to make Jesus out to be unfair, among other things. So what does it mean to each of us personally, that “the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us?”

DA.024.001
“ Since Jesus came to dwell with us, we know that God is acquainted with our trials, and sympathizes with our griefs. Every son and daughter of Adam may understand that our Creator is the friend of sinners. For in every doctrine of grace, every promise of joy, every deed of love, every divine attraction presented in the Saviour's life on earth, we see "God with us."

RH.1887-07-05.006
“Wondrous combination of man and God! He might have helped his human nature to withstand the inroads of disease by pouring from his divine nature vitality and undecaying vigor to the human. But he humbled himself to man's nature. He did this that the Scripture might be fulfilled; and the plan was entered into by the Son of God, knowing all the steps in his humiliation, that he must descend to make an expiation for the sins of a condemned, groaning world. What humility was this! It amazed angels. The tongue can never describe it; the imagination cannot take it in. The eternal Word consented to be made flesh! God became man! It was a wonderful humility!”

Numerous groups or individuals have assaulted the doctrine commonly know as the Trinity doctrine over the years. The most decided attack seems to be mostly centred around the Person Of Jesus Christ. In attacking the Trinity doctrine, people usually attack Jesus; but there is the odd group that will also attack the Holy Spirit. All of this is as the Bible says it will be. We need not worry about who Jesus was. The Bible makes it very clear for us.

I hope you had a nice Christmas! I am replying to a post that has caught my eye titled what Jehova Witnesses believe.

I would just like to interject a few points here that i have not seen as of yet.

1 The JW's have taken John 1:1 " In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God" and have interpreted it and re written it to say" in the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was a god"

2 They do not recognize I Timothy 3:16 as being God manifested in the flesh ( Jesus)

3 They also teach Jesus and Michael are the same being.

4 They do not recognize our Lord and savior Jesus as God, They teach he is just a man.

5 They have numerous literature and study guides written by the Jw church and taught as scripture that does not match the bible.

I mean no harm or offence, I just wanted to be sure it was clear what they teach.

In peace and with respect

Searching

Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

They asked me how a person ate when they were unable to feed themselves because of different things that happened to them in hospital.
Then they pointed out that IV's were inserted and nourishment was given through the tubes, in essence, you were eating.
Taking a liberal view of eating, and literal
(sp)one, they said, therefore, you were eating blood in direct defiance to an order from God not too.
This may be over simplistic, but in essence, that is what they told me.

Just a little FYI for you here...Since I have done most of the posting. My posts here in this thread are intended to do a comparison of what JWs believe; and what SDA's believe; and I have not been too concerned about listing everything they say think or do in a given topic line.

I personally don't like to just list a bunch of things some individual or group is doing wrong; and then leave it at that. I believe that in order for it to be an actual Bible study; we need to do the type of comparisons I have mentioned.

I have a brother who is a JW and so I have learned a lot about them. My posts here are study notes I have personally made from a number of sources.

I have a good study with thorough Biblical details on this blood issue; but as with all good things; it will take time for a guy as busy as me to work through my notes to this study.

But just off the top of my hat; the blood being referred to was animal blood in Lev.17; and if you check the verse in Rev. that says "He has made of one blood, all nations," you would perhaps see a connection to possible blood transfusions...It's almost like God made us "of one blood" for the purpose of medical treatments involving blood or blood products.

We don't eat people blood. Because we don't eat people. But some of us do eat animals; and so Leviticus only talks about animal blood; when it says "Thou shalt not eat thereof."

If you think about the physiology of how blood works; food goes into the stomach, and then releases the nutrients to the blood. In the case of a transfusion; the blood bypasses the stomach, and goes right into the blood vessels.

Blood belongs in veins and arteries...not in stomachs; but it is only human blood we can put into our veins. We would die from animal blood in the veins or ateries. Why would God tell us to do something like not doing transfusions, when he has obviously made our blood just for that? Most side effects from transfusions are not usually no more dangerous that forgetting what your wife tells you to buy at the grocery store.

Truly, we are fearfully and wonderfully made.

[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

I forgot i saved this in favorites, so forgive me if I "left it out there" ! Your Brother is a JW? I grew up with a few of them, also with Roman Catholics and SDA's.

I mean no harm while posting what I'm going to post, I understand you were doing a comparison study on the two religions? correct?

I have noticed that they both Have a foundation of Jesus that to me is the same with a few exceptions.

They both teach that Jesus existed as "Christ" or "Jesus" before the New Testament.

While the Jw's do not recognize Jesus as being God the Sda's recognize him as The God who became man to act as a contact point between us and God.

The exact wording is this as found in 27 Fundamental beliefs book of the seventh Day Adventist Page 24 sixth paragraph under the title " A Working Relationship"

" Gods point of contact with humanity was and is through Jesus Christ-The God who became man."

They have made a distinction here, at the begining of the sentance you find God, Then it states that Jesus is also "a God", The God who became man. Here you have two Gods.

The seperation here is apparent, and sets the stage for his existance in the O.T before the N.T scriptures say he was manifested.

Here you see this again.
On page 25 of the same book 4th paragraph under " focus of salvation"

"Christ became man to die for the race"

Christ means annointed one, messiah, "Christos"in Greek.

They are simply stating here that Christ existed as Christ before the N.t and Manifested himself, Read I Tim 3:16 and I John 3:5 and compare.

That is all for now,

In peace and with respect, always in respect

Searching

That is an interesting display name you are using.

Does that mean you are searching for the truth as it is found in the Bible? In a sense, there is more truth in there for us all to find.

Back to this topic:

The JWs believe that Jesus Christ was a created being made into "a god" which makes me wonder what their concept of "a god" is? Does it mean that they believe other created beings can become "a god" also?

They don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a person in the same sense that they believe Jehovah is or any created being is. They refer to the Holy Spirit as a force.

We in the SDA Church believe that Jesus Christ was not a created being but existed along with Jehovah throughout all eternity, without beginning and without end.

We also believe that the Holy Spirit is a person who has an intelligence of His own as Jehovah and Jesus Christ does.

Now it is obvious to me that Jesus Christ didn't use the name Jesus Christ prior to His first advent. What name do you suppose He used?

[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Your questions are welcome...that's what this thread is for.

I would like to try to clarify something before I answer - as I have put my foot in my mouth before, by answering people too soon.

I have just a question or three, and then I will await your reply, before answering.

1) Are you thinking that the SDA Church teaches the same as JW's on the nature/name of Christ?

2) Do you see the explanations of our beliefs in the 27 FB's book on the nature Christ, as accurate?

3)What are you hearing within this thread, that you could say: a) I disagree; b) I agree? Can you give a summary of what your belief is, in regards to the nature of Christ?

Well, I stuck to my three questions, so I had better stop. Look forward to hearing from you.

The name "searching" is what I chose because i am searching for the Path to the Lord.

My belief is Jesus's name in the O.T was the "Word" in accordance with John 1:1. He was Gods audible word, The word which is true, pure, righteous, good ,everlasting and never changing. The Word he created the world by. God manifested himself into Flesh in accordance with prophecy and was preached to the Gentiles, seen by The angels in accordance With 1 Timothy 3:16.

He did this to take away our sins, in accordance with I John 3:5. Thus "Jesus" is God, God's "Word" made flesh.

Do you have the 27 Fundamental beliefs book ? those sentances I put in my last post came from that book. It's kind of hard to talk about stuff if the other person doesn't have access to the same material.

In peace and with respect

Christy

I have all the SDA books.

quote:

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Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

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quote:

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

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quote:

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Isaiah 43:10 "You are my witnesses," says the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Isaiah 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

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quote:

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Isaiah 43:10 "You are my witnesses," is the utterance of Jehovah, "even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and have faith in me, and that you may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.

Isaiah 43:11 I - I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior."

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quote:

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Originally posted by John:
All of the groups mentioned were movements/ideas that were designed to lead away from the knowledge of the true God.

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quote:

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Adventism gives the truest picture of God that we humans have in this present world.

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quote:

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Quoted from posted 11-09-2004 03:28 PM
(B)that someone or some group actually sat down and said "Let's design a movement to lead people away from the true God."

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people are not angles

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quote:

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Originally posted by <Cedric>:
John, when you use the term "Adventism", what, specifically, are you refering to? Do you mean the Adventist doctrines, the people who make up the church, the Adventist sub-culture, the world-wide organization, or some other aspect of Adventism?

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