Jesus did not work to correct preconceived misconceptions. "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." John 16:12. Living under Roman rule was a compromise. The Protestant Reformation was a compromise. That is, God was leading men and women throughout the Reformation even though their knowledge of the truth was incomplete. The Great Disappointment was a compromise. Health reform was a compromise until 1863. In all these cases God overlooked the fact that their knowledge of the truth was incomplete and incorrect.

vastergotland

You have asked me to clarify how my comments relate to Avalee's post. I will try.

It may help to be clear about my position as a Seventh-day Adventist Christian.

I have taken my name from the books of the denomination, because after much study, came to the conclusion that if I remained there [connected to the denomination] and worshipped with them, I could be distracted, responsible for corporate sins and lose my eternal life.

I came to this conclusion after many years of observing compromise and blatant disobedience by the denomination as a whole.
I read in the Bible that we are to separate ourselves from this kind of people.
I consider myself seeking to be one of the redeemed when Christ comes to take His people home.
I think that there are many people who find themselves feeling a fierce loyalty to their church, but lack the personal walk with God. I believe that if this was not the case, then there would not be the compromise and disobedience in the church, as there is.

The denomination, as a whole, refused an invitation to a corporate repentance in the early 1950s. The statement that was to represent the corporate body, was "it is not possible".
Why, in this modern age, is it not possible???
It was required by God and accomplished several times in the old Testament, but "it is not possible" for us today?? What has happened to us??
GOD HELP US!!

There is a very solemn study on CORPORATE RESPONSIBILITY that applies to each individual that professes to be waiting for our Lord's soon return.
Briefly stated; If we are connected to persons or institutions, WHO PROFESS to be Christians and approve of sin, by participation or silence, then we, ourselves, become as guilty as the perpetrator. Please study the story of Achan.

I will not go further with those thoughts. If someone would like to know more, I will be happy to provide documentation, and references.

Having said these things, with as much heart as I know how, I will continue with my response to you, Vastergotland.

I find fault with the statement that Avalee has chosen to provide together with the statement from Proverbs 13:10, which clearly says that when our motive is pride, then contention is agitated, but when our motive is truly to defend truth, because of our love for our fellowman and for Christ, then we will speak wisdom.

The statement of Manuscript that was provided, I believe has serious error in it.
I do not believe that EGW penned these words under inspiration from God.
Here is why.

"We shall see eye to eye erelong,.."
there is no guarantee that this will happen for all of us, only the diligent Bible students and those that are overcomers

""..but to become firm and consider it your duty to present your views in decided opposition to the faith or truth as it has been taught by us as a people, is a mistake, and will result in harm..."
There is no way that we could be sure what she might be referring to here, but to present the message AS IT WAS IN THE EARLY YEARS OF OUR DENOMINATION, today, goes blatantly against the modern understanding of our beliefs in some important areas.

"Begin to draw apart and feel at liberty to express your ideas without reference to the views of your brethren..."
Many, who are feeling this fierce loyalty to the Church, as opposed to God and truth, will feel a need to "correct" one who is standing against the church views and conclusions and see them as divisive.

"My husband had some ideas on some points differing from the views taken by his brethren. I was shown that HOWEVER TRUE HIS VIEWS WERE, God did NOT call for him to put them in front before his brethren and create differences of ideas...."
God deals in truth and I cannot believe that He would ever condone keeping it silent. This concept is NOT scriptural. It is??

"Christ did not reveal many things that were truth, because it would create a difference of opinion and get up disputations,..."
I would need to see a scriptural reference for this. I am 'open' does anyone have one??

"Now when everything is dissension and strife, there must be decided efforts to handle, [to] publish with pen and voice these things that will reveal ONLY [????] HARMONY."

Vastergotland, do you agree with this part??

EGW said:
"And now to all who have a desire for truth I would say: Do not give credence to unauthenticated reports as to what Sister White has done or said or WRITTEN. If you desire to know what the Lord has revealed through her, read HER published works." 5T p.696

" I said, "If any of the citizens of Battle Creek wish to know what Mrs. White believes and teaches, let them read HER published books.
[8RH 01-26-05 Notes of Travel, #2 (Moline and Battle Creek) pr. 19]

Think about why she would give us this caution.
She knew that the books were vulnerable.

As for Matthew 5 and Matthew 10:
I think it was a mistake for me to refer to Matthew 5. Please excuse that reference.
I looked up the reference for the verse where Jesus said that He did not come to bring peace, but a sword and found that in that very chapter, is where Jesus told us how to work for “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. Matthew 10:34 I find that verse a bit contrary to the words in the statement that Avalee has presented.

Now, as for the statement that you declare is ‘not true’, allow me to call your attention to the fact that the statement says that Christ NEVER did or said anything FOR THE PURPOSE OF stirring up an argument or FOR THE PURPOSE OF causing division. THAT WAS MY POINT, Vastergotland.
What He did and said, DID INDEED stir up commotion, - but that is not what He had in mind when He presented truth to the people. He was not a ‘trouble maker’.

Midge, it is clear in the SOP that Sister White did not share your views regarding the church. And Jesus said the wheat and tares grow together until the harvest. True, we must not fellowship with such church members, as if nothing is amuck, after the church service.

7T 16
Enfeebled and defective, needing constantly to be warned and counseled, the church is nevertheless the object of Christ's supreme regard. {7T 16.4}

TM 49
Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin. The church, enfeebled and defective, needing to be reproved, warned, and counseled, is the only object upon earth upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard. {TM 49.1}

Matthew
13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mike,

You are clearly referring to the Denominational Church and I am referring to the Church referred to in Revelation 12:17 "... the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
When Christ was here he worked with a pure church and wept for the "Church" that He wanted to gather to him and they would not, which was Jerusalem.

According to 8T p. 250 and 251 EGW wrote about how that unless the church repented, she would abhore herself.

As far as I can find, this statement was written in 1903.

Who can truthfully say: "Our gold is tried in the fire; our garments are unspotted by the world"? I saw our instructor pointing to the garments of so-called righteousness. Stripping them off, He laid bare the defilement beneath. Then He said to me: "Can you not see how they have pretentiously covered up their defilement and rottenness of character? 'How is the faithful city become an harlot?' My Father's house is made a house of merchandise, a place whence the divine PRESENCE and glory have DEPARTED. For this cause there is weakness, and strength is lacking.
Unless the church, which is now being leavened with her own backsliding, shall repent and be converted, she will eat of the fruit of her own doing, until she shall abhor herself. When she resists the evil and chooses the good, when she seeks God with all humillity and reaches her high calling in Christ, standing on the platform of eternal truth and by faith laying hold upon the attainments prepared for her, whe will be healed. She will appear in her God-given simplicity and purity, SEPARATE FROM EARTHLY ENTANGLEMENTS, showing that the truth has made her free indeed. THEN HER MEMBERS WILL INDEED BE THE CHOSEN OF GOD, HIS REPRESENTATIVES.

As far as I know, these conditions have not been met. Where does that leave us as individuals?

As far as the statements that you have provided regarding the Church being the object of His supreme regard. Would it not be true that He would be referring to the TRUE church, which KEEP, [not just preach] the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
See Rev. 19:10 ".....for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
Our own leadership have participated in the distortion of the SOP until we [inside the denomination] do not have it any more. The ORIGINAL WRITINGS are resisted by the denomination.

Midge I am so sorry that you have such feelings as you do. I do not agree with you about the Spirit of Prophecy not being penned by God's prophet, Ellen G. White. This is such a sad thing for you to say. We must keep eyes on Jesus.

Avalee,

I am sorry that you got the impression that it is about my feelings.
I have studied these things for at least the last ten years and discussed it with many. I have done my best to give references for my conclusions.
I will be happy to consider inspired statements that would explain that I am wrong.
I believe very firmly that EGW penned the Spirit Of Prophecy.
Please do not report that I do not.
I also believe and have seen for myself that "men" have changed the inspired writings.

Hi Midge,
I would like to recap your thoughts so I know where you are coming from:
1. You feel based on the evidence from what you have read that the writings of Sister White have been tampered with excliding the 1858 Great Controversy?
2. You feel that the SDA church has backslidden into apostasy and is being tainted (leavened bread) by people on the top?

God Bless,
Will

Hi Will

Not quite.

1) I believe that EGW was given inspired messages from God for His people.
I believe that some of our earlier pioneers resisted these messages because some of them were very pointed and required humbling of hearts and changes made in their lifestyle.
I believe that, after James White died there were efforts to change and delay her writings. Many of them. [If not all] Not just a few. Then after she died the writings were tampered with, word and idea changes, additions and deletions happened.
There was even a committee appointed to "make corrections", in 1883. How can 'men' make corrections to God's express word to His 'messenger'?
I believe that certain ones of the faith knew that it was happening and that it was wrong. They wrote about it.
But prestige and power win with human beings.


2) In recent years, [within the recent 50 or so]
Certain individuals have found that there are many of the ORIGINAL BOOKS that still exist in their ORIGINAL form. [Before the tampering]
The 1858 Great Controversy is one of them.
But we have available to us, at least 30 of the testimonies to the church. The Redemption Series [8 of them] these are where The Desire Of Ages came from. and many more. I can provide a complete list if anyone wants it.
I have read all of these books and studied some in depth.
I have compared the ORIGINAL books with the ones that came later and seen the changes, additions and deletions. The 1858 Great Controversy is among the ORIGINAL books, that I believe is minus the changes and ideas of man.

3) I do see that the church has backslidden.
I do not blame it entirely on the leaders at the top. But they do carry a huge responsibility when they step up to lead, counsel and teach the people.
We are counseled as a people that we are to study, as laymen, 'to see if these things are so.' If we were doing our part as individuals and living in harmony with the word of God, we would be a people that would give an account to each other, including the leaders.

Midge

You have said alot this night.
You pointed to the church as fallen and said that you therefore have separated yourself from it while refering to Pauls advice to be separate from false believers. In Pauls day it seems to me that the churches while a unity still stood and fell individually. Therefore I wonder if a more appropriate response or action would have been to find a group which you would considder not fallen within the denomination. (Perhaps that wouldnt be so great advice either though 'thinking about Jesus lesson on the plank and the speck'".

What I would want to know on the Achan example is, are we a people like Israel was a people? If yes, where on earth can you find a group where noone sins to join?

You wrote

quote:

---

God deals in truth and I cannot believe that He would ever condone keeping it silent. This concept is NOT scriptural. It is??

---

God may say, not yet.

Reading the whole initial quote again, it seems to me that it speaks of something very different than what you are trying hard to make it. Perhaps a more suitable following quote could have been choosen, namely

quote:

---

1 Timothy 1

Warning Against False Teachers of the Law

3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

---

I mean, it speaks about keeping focused, not majoring in minors. A person who teaches Jesus and Him born, lived, crucified, resurected and now working in Heaven would not be accused by this quote. I do not know if this last applies to you or not.

I do agree on you point in the last two EW quotes, to go to her published books for the prophecies and not to manmade compilations. Ironically one of those quotes isnt from a book

On division, while Jesus may or may not have intended to cause division at these times, the example with Paul is clearly an intended effort to divide the court.

On the next post, replying to Mike, you make a difference between the SDA and the church refered to in revelation. Could you explain further on this difference, who do you see the two as being today? Can this "Gods true church on earth" be difined within boundaries? There are different way in which this view can be held, which of them do you go with?

What you describe in your reply to Will is that this denomination from some of the first pioneers and onwards would have been the Church Hypocritical. A cowardly ingenuine and false movement. What you appear to be saying is that only a remnant within this church ever knew God. Is this what you are saying?

I would finaly like to point out to you that salvation is not found in doing the right things (for instance the parable on the sheep and the goats) or knowing the right things (the pharises and lawyers of Jesus day knew the writings backwards and forwards). While these things are important, when left to their own they are inadequate to bring life. Only knowing God, our Creator will lead to life eternal.

/Thomas