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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52688
03/25/04 05:47 PM
03/25/04 05:47 PM
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quote:
Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Paul actually refers to a portion of the 10 Commandments that deals with man's love relationship with man, with our love relationship with one another. If these ones exist, then the ones referring to our love relationship with God must also exist, for unless we first have a love relationship with God, we can't have a proper love relationship with one another.
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52689
03/25/04 07:00 PM
03/25/04 07:00 PM
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quote:
I'd look at my wife and the picture of her too. You'd throw the picture away.
Which more accurately reflects who she is in all aspects?
quote:
This talk about "all we need is the Spirit, and He will show us what's right" -- if that's true, why did God give us any Scripture at all? Why the need for any written Word?
God indeed did give us the word:
“1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[it. 6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent,[nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1
So are saying John that the “Word” we were given in the form of Jesus Christ is not enough?
quote:
Men can *think* they're following the promptings of the Spirit of God, when they're actually following Satan. It's everywhere we look these days, and all through history.
Men can also think they are follow the Bible, when they are not. Just look at David Karish or other cults. They quote many bible texts. So were they following God?
quote:
The written Word of God, including the law He wrote with His own finger and spoke with His own voice, work together with the convictions and guidance of the Spirit. All are necessary. That's why God gave them all. We ignore His gifts and revelations at our eternal peril.
And yet, who or what did Jesus rely on to teach his disciples really what was going on and what they needed to know?
“25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.” John 14
quote:
quote:
Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Paul actually refers to a portion of the 10 Commandments that deals with man's love relationship with man, with our love relationship with one another. If these ones exist, then the ones referring to our love relationship with God must also exist, for unless we first have a love relationship with God, we can't have a proper love relationship with one another.
Daryl, let’s look at more of this passage:
"8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”
I think your statement above is somewhat misleading in that while Paul does quote from some of the laws originally on stone, he also quotes from the others laws by saying "Love your neighbor as yourself”,Which is also an OT law (Lev. 19:18), it just wasn’t originally on stone or one of the ten.
Paul also mentions “and whatever other commandment there may be”, implying he means all the 613 laws.
So the reality is that Paul meant all the laws, not just those originally on stone. So he is not singling out the ten C’s. But means the entire law.
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52690
03/25/04 09:31 PM
03/25/04 09:31 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Lobo,
Ironic you didn't mention Jim Jones who was a Baptist preacher with a large church in LosAngeles, but mentioned David Koresh, who was a Branch Davidian which is Shepherd Rod.. David Koresh claimed to be able to open\reveal the seals in the book of Revelation, and there is only 1 person who can do that.. Jesus Christ.
So it appears that even these 2 dead cult leaders they twisted scripture to manipulate those who did not know..
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52691
03/25/04 10:54 PM
03/25/04 10:54 PM
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That is my exact point Will, that having the written “Word” is no guarantee that you will be following God. But based on what Jesus did it seems clear that following the holy spirit has more value than the written word. Not that the bible is worthless, only that it is lifeless without the holy spirit.
I guess you know the Branch Davidian’ were originally SDA’s? At least some where. I knew a guy who was part of the cult but left before it got crazy.
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52692
03/25/04 11:56 PM
03/25/04 11:56 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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They may have been, but I don't know if that is true, but I do know that Shepherd Rods are Branch Davidians..
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52693
03/26/04 06:35 PM
03/26/04 06:35 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Reposted from page 2:
Lobo, I'm sorry if it seems as though I am running away from one of your so-called irrefutable points. But please rest assured that isn't the case at all. I have answered your objections over and over again, using both the Bible and the SOP, but you believe so firmly Jesus' death abolished the ten commandments that there is nothing more we can talk about regarding this topic.
You continue to accuse me of making the law more important than my relationship with Jesus. Please believe me, that isn't the case at all. Just because I believe Jesus wrote the law in my heart does not mean I believe they are more important than Jesus Himself.
The reason sabbath keeping has become a focus in this study is because of all the commandments that's the only one you teach and believe has been abolished and is no longer required. If you were advocating one of the other commandments has been abolished I would defend that one too. But in reality we all agree that the other nine cannot be ignored or rejected without incurring the wrath of God.
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52694
03/26/04 07:33 PM
03/26/04 07:33 PM
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quote:
The reason sabbath keeping has become a focus in this study is because of all the commandments that's the only one you teach and believe has been abolished and is no longer required. If you were advocating one of the other commandments has been abolished I would defend that one too. But in reality we all agree that the other nine cannot be ignored or rejected without incurring the wrath of God.
The problem is that the 9 are repeated many times as sins if not followed in the NT. And also stated as commands in the NT. Yet, that is not the case for the sabbath, which is not mentioned once as a command, and not mentioned by Jesus or other disciples as a sin if not followed either.
So with this background, you tell me how I can treat the sabbath the same way as the other 9, when scriptures doesn’t treat them the same?
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52695
03/27/04 03:59 AM
03/27/04 03:59 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Lobo, I am glad you made this point clear. In the past it hasn't been easy to tell whether you believe any of the commandments are still binding today. The way you insist the law ceases to be necessary or functional after we are born again makes it difficult to discern your views on the other nine. Thanx for clarifying that point.
I'm not sure an argument based on absence or omission is valid. I believe something as important as the law requires more clarity and explanation if God really did eliminate physical sabbath keeping as a requirement after the cross or after we are born again.
Can you imagine how much space would have been devoted to such a foundational change to the customs of Israel? Think about it. Look how much time and attention was expended on explaining why circumcision was no longer required. It is very difficult for me to imagine none of the debates were recorded explaining why the sabbath was reduced to merely symbolizing righteousness by faith.
So, the absence of such arguments in the NT strongly imply the sabbath hasn't been changed.
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52696
03/29/04 01:06 PM
03/29/04 01:06 PM
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Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Mike.
You know that my ideas are the same as Lobo in regards with the law, grace and justification.
Indeed I believe that if a believer is led by the Spirit, he would produce fruits of the Spirit that is in harmony with the law whether he is under the law or not, because love as fruit of the Spirit fulfill the 9 commandments.]
But since I accept that Christ prophecy of Sabbath observation as according to the Law still exist after his ascension for he said this words to his disciples alone, then I start to think, whether I too must observe the Sabbath day as according to the Law.
Only, I feel that something is wrong, because if I accept the 4th commandment, I come under the law’s jurisdiction that requires me to do it perfectly. I feel that I, by observing the 7th day Sabbath am trying to suit my self to live righteously and perfect as according to the law. The same would happen if I accept the whole Ten Commandments. Meanwhile I believe that without the law, I still might have a righteous life that qualifies me for heaven when I live by faith and led by the Spirit. I don’t like this, I don’t want that the law become a standard of righteousness for me; I want Jesus as my standard of righteousness.
I can’t help thinking that by coming under the Law, I would judge my manner and behavior as according to the law for the law become my standard of judgment and righteousness, I can’t avoid this. But if Jesus is my standard of living, I don’t have this feeling; I FEEL FREE.
Therefore, I want to comment on your last, is it possible that because Galatians believers were led to accept the law as their standard of judgment and righteousness by false brothers, Paul warned them that circumcision doesn’t matter anymore, the same with Sabbath day as according to Colossians 2:15,16.
If I read Paul’s epistle to the Jew’s believer in Rome and his letter to the Galatians believers in Galatia, I think he was addressing issues differently, which we may not take it as the same.
Maybe, because the law was given to Israel, they remain under the law even after his ascension, but Gentiles believers remain not under the law as it was before his death. Therefore, Sabbath issue and the law was still in effect for Jews only (Romans 3:31), but for the Gentiles it is not an issue (Galatians 3:21-25).
What do you think?
In His love
James S.
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52697
03/29/04 05:55 PM
03/29/04 05:55 PM
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quote:
I'm not sure an argument based on absence or omission is valid. I believe something as important as the law requires more clarity and explanation if God really did eliminate physical sabbath keeping as a requirement after the cross or after we are born again.
Can you imagine how much space would have been devoted to such a foundational change to the customs of Israel? Think about it. Look how much time and attention was expended on explaining why circumcision was no longer required. It is very difficult for me to imagine none of the debates were recorded explaining why the sabbath was reduced to merely symbolizing righteousness by faith.
First off Mike, you are making an assumption here that the OT law was given to Gentiles in any form, and that just isn’t the case. The only place where even some of it was given is Acts 15. In this chapter the Disciples and Epistles talk over what of the OT law the Gentiles should be required to follow. And after that discussion they required: “abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood”. The sabbath was even mentioned in verse 21, but was not included in the list. Notice that verse 28 states that anything beyond these four things was considered a “burden”. Also notice that it had the holy sprits blessing in that same verse.
So from a scripture perspective, these are the only requirements required of Gentiles from the OT law. Other moral laws are also mentioned later in the NT, but the sabbath is never mentioned.
Next, your statement about the sabbath and circumcision implies that you believe Israel and the NT disciples felt that the Sabbath was of more importance than circumcision. Well, I believe that assumption is incorrect. Circumcision was considered more important than the sabbath.
“21Jesus said to them, "I did one miracle, and you are all astonished. 22Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath. 23Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? 24Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." John 7
Jesus here states that Israel is circumcising a child on the sabbath, which technically breaks the sabbath, in order to not break the law of circumcision which states a child must be circumcised on the eighth day (Lev 12:3).
So Jesus states what they had been doing and then affirms that that practice is ok by saying “if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath”.
So this text is huge in that it shows that circumcision not only had more value to the Jews, but that fact was confirmed as being correct by Jesus.
So your assumption that dropping the sabbath would raise more “stink” among the Jews than circumcision is inaccurate as circumcision was more important to Jews and Jesus than the sabbath.
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