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Re: Lesson Study #3 - Jesus and the HOLY SPIRIT
#73220
04/15/06 05:57 PM
04/15/06 05:57 PM
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Dear Larry:
Then, why is there a separate fundamental belief number for each God. See fundamental beliefs 3, 4 and 5. As I read it, "God the Father" is different than "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit". and "God the Son" is different than "God the Father" or "God the Holy Spirit" and "God the Holy Spirit" is different than "God the Father" or "God the Son". Is this how you read?
Dr Glenn:
Larry's point of clarification was not to say that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are the same person, but to say that they are one God.
We do not worship many gods, as do the heathen (the sun god, the moon god, etc). We worship one God, revealed in three Persons who are eternally distinct.
Your original comment, whether intentionally or mistakenly, called each member of the Godhead a different god from the other two. It was this point that Larry was commenting on, not the fact they are different Persons in the same Godhead.
There is a distinction between different members of the Godhead and different gods. The fact that They are distinct Persons does not make them distinct gods.
Does that help?
Well, I am not sure it does. I have read "Seventh-day Adventist Believe" several times in regard to fundamental beliefs 2, 3, 4, and 4. I have also read twice the book "The Trinity" by Whidden. From reading these books, I get the idea that these books teach that "God the Father" is 100% God. I agree with this teaching. However, I believe these books also teach that "God the Son" as a separate person from the Father and the Holy Spirit is 100% God in the sense the Father is God and "God the Holy Spirit" as a separate person from the Father and the Son is 100% God in the sense the Father is God.
If the Son as a separate person from the Father and Holy Spirit is 100% God in the sense that the Father is 100% God, why was "life within himself" given to him from his Father? See John 5:26. If the Son is 100% God in the sense the Father is God, why was it necessary for the Father to give him "all power". See Matthew 28:18. And why was it necessary for the Father to give the Son a commandment that he had the power (or authority) to lay down his life and then take it up again? See John 10:18.
If the Holy Spirit as a separate person from the Father and Son is 100% God in the sense the Father is 100% God, why can't he speak of himself? See John 16:13. If the Holy Spirit as a separate person from the Father and the Son is 100% God as the Father is God, then why does he not have a body like the Father and the Son? If the Holy Spirit as a separate person from the Father and the Son is 100% God as the Father is God, then why can't he forgive sins himself without the Father or the Son?
If the Son and the Holy Spirit as separate persons from the Farther are each 100% God as the Father is God, then all three would be equal persons. Did EGW state that each of the three are equal? She says that the Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight. The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested. The Word of God declares Him to be 'the express image of his Father's person'. See Evangelism pages 614, 615. The Son is not invisible to human sight. The Father is not the express image of his own person. I believe the three cannot be equal persons.
grw
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Re: Lesson Study #3 - Jesus and the HOLY SPIRIT
#73221
04/15/06 06:20 PM
04/15/06 06:20 PM
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Dr. Glenn, I agree with much of what you write. I have a couple of questions. First of all, Rosangela cited the following from the other thread:
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"‘The Spirit also helpeth our infirmities;’ and the Spirit, being God, knoweth the mind of God." {ST, October 3, 1892}.
I agree that we are not told to exalt the Holy Spirit, but my understanding of this is that this is not because He is not God, but because it is God's nature not to exalt Himself. The Father exalts the Son, and the Son exalts the Father. The Spirit exalts both, especially the Son since Christ's incarnation (or so it seems to me).
I really had trouble understanding this:
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In regard to the sanctuary message. It is the Father who sits on the mercy seat in the Most Holy Place. Our mediator, Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, does not sit on the mercy seat since he is our high priest. I believe we have only one mediator between us and God, the Father. The trinity doctrine teaches we have one mediator between us and the triune God (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit). If our mediator is "God the Son" in regard to the sanctuary message, then we really do not have a mediator since we can go directly to "God the Son". If "God the Holy Spirit" is our mediator, in regard to the sanctuary message, we really do not have a mediator because we can go directly to what the trinity doctrine advocates call "God the Holy Spirit". The Holy Spirit lives inside of us and if it is "God the Holy Spirit" inside of us, then we do not need a mediator to have access to this god.
Jesus Christ is our mediator in the sense that He reveals God to us. No man has seen God at any time. The One who knew Him best, at the Father's side, has shown us what He is like.
Jesus said, "At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
For the Father himself loveth you." (John 16:26, 27)
Jesus taught that we can go directly to the Father, because the Father Himself loves us. Our need for a Mediator stems from our unbelief.
A lot of what you wrote in the paragraph cited above seems founded on mysticism. For example, the Holy Spirit does not literally live inside of us; He illuminates our minds so we can understand the things of God.
The problem of our access to God has nothing to do with anything imposed upon us by God, but has to do with our sin and unbelief.
Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father, but by me". See John 14:6.
Can we, who are all sinners, come directly to the Father (a person separate and distinct from the Son and Holy Spirit) without the Son?
Can we, who are all sinners, come to the Father by "God the Holy Spirit" (a person separate and distinct from the Father and the Son) without the Son?
grw
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Re: Lesson Study #3 - Jesus and the HOLY SPIRIT
#73222
04/16/06 12:35 PM
04/16/06 12:35 PM
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Dr. Glenn, Quote:
No he was not. It depends on who He was referring to as "the Lord thy God". It surely could mean his Father. Look at other texts such as John 17:3 and John 20:17.
Exactly. It depends on who He was referring to as "the Lord thy God". If He was referring only to God the Father, He would be contradicting Himself, since He accepted worship. Therefore, "the Lord thy God" here cannot mean just the Father, but must necessarily refer to the three members of the Godhead.
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EGW said: "The Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, is truly God in infinity, but not in personality." (if He is not God in personality how can he be 100% God in the sense the Father is God?)
That’s the problem. If Christ is not 100% God in the sense the Father is God, how can He be "God essentially, and in the highest sense" (RH, April 5, 1906)? How can He be "co-equal with God" (RH, June 28, 1892)? You cannot believe in co-equality and at the same time believe that the Son is not 100% God in the sense that the Father is God (which implies the superiority of the Father).
My understanding of the phrase that Christ is “truly God in infinity but not in personality” is that Christ possesses the infinity of God (the Father) but is not the same person as God. What is your understanding of the phrase?
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If Jesus Christ is not "altogether human" and I believe in the inspiration of EGW, then how can I adopt the teaching that he was 100% human when EGW said that he was not 100% (altogether) human?
We must consider the context, otherwise we will certainly make Ellen White contradict herself.
She wrote:
“Had he not been fully human, Christ could not have been our substitute” (ST, June 17, 1897).
What does she mean then by saying that Christ was not altogether human? The context provides the answer:
“Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. ... Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. ... That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be.”--The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, pp. 1128, 1129. {7ABC 448.2}
He was fully human in every sense except in the sense of having the propensities of sin, like the rest of humans.
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Jesus said: "For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself." John 5:26.
Repeating what I have said in the past, John 5:26 says that God gave – or allowed - Christ to have life in Himself. But the context makes clear that in this text Christ was speaking of His mission as the Messiah, not of His pre-incarnate state _ He explicitly uses the words Son of Man:
"For, as the Father hath life in himself, so He gave also to the Son to have life in himself, and authority He gave him also to do judgment, because he is Son of Man" (John 5:25, 26, YLT).
John 5:26 means that Christ was the only human being who had eternal life in Himself, because He was the divine-human Messiah.
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The "original, unborrowed, and underived life" was given to the Son from his Father.
If it had been given, it wouldn’t be original, nor unborrowed, nor underived. “Original”, “unborrowed” and “underived” are three words which mean the same thing – “not received from any source”.
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Re: Lesson Study #3 - Jesus and the HOLY SPIRIT
#73223
04/16/06 05:07 PM
04/16/06 05:07 PM
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Dr. Glenn,
Quote:
No he was not. It depends on who He was referring to as "the Lord thy God". It surely could mean his Father. Look at other texts such as John 17:3 and John 20:17.
Exactly. It depends on who He was referring to as "the Lord thy God". If He was referring only to God the Father, He would be contradicting Himself, since He accepted worship. Therefore, "the Lord thy God" here cannot mean just the Father, but must necessarily refer to the three members of the Godhead.
Roseangela: You state: "must necessarily refer to the three members of the Godhead." Are you exalting or worshiping the Holy Spirit? Is there a Bible text that commands you to do this? EGWsaid: "The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted." See Youth Instructor, 7 July 1898.
Quote:
EGW said: "The Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, is truly God in infinity, but not in personality." (if He is not God in personality how can he be 100% God in the sense the Father is God?)
That’s the problem. If Christ is not 100% God in the sense the Father is God, how can He be "God essentially, and in the highest sense" (RH, April 5, 1906)? How can He be "co-equal with God" (RH, June 28, 1892)? You cannot believe in co-equality and at the same time believe that the Son is not 100% God in the sense that the Father is God (which implies the superiority of the Father).
Roseangela: Jesus Christ the only begotten Son repeatedly talks about the superiority of His Father. See John 5:19, John 5:26, John 14:28, John 17:2, Revelation 1:1. In John 20:17 and Revelation 3:12 he refers to His Father as "My God" thus recognizing superiority. The Son was exalted to be equal to "God the Father". EGW said: "Our great Exemplar was exalted to be equal with God." See 2T 426.
My understanding of the phrase that Christ is “truly God in infinity but not in personality” is that Christ possesses the infinity of God (the Father) but is not the same person as God. What is your understanding of the phrase?
Roseangela: I agree. He is not the same person. He is the "brightness of His Father's glory and the express image of His person." See 1SAT 343.
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If Jesus Christ is not "altogether human" and I believe in the inspiration of EGW, then how can I adopt the teaching that he was 100% human when EGW said that he was not 100% (altogether) human?
We must consider the context, otherwise we will certainly make Ellen White contradict herself.
She wrote:
“Had he not been fully human, Christ could not have been our substitute” (ST, June 17, 1897).
What does she mean then by saying that Christ was not altogether human? The context provides the answer:
“Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. ... Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. ... That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be.”--The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, pp. 1128, 1129. {7ABC 448.2}
He was fully human in every sense except in the sense of having the propensities of sin, like the rest of humans.
Quote:
Jesus said: "For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself." John 5:26.
Repeating what I have said in the past, John 5:26 says that God gave – or allowed - Christ to have life in Himself. But the context makes clear that in this text Christ was speaking of His mission as the Messiah, not of His pre-incarnate state _ He explicitly uses the words Son of Man:
Roseangela: I do not believe the word "allowed" has the same meaning as the word "given". I believe it changes the meaning.
"For, as the Father hath life in himself, so He gave also to the Son to have life in himself, and authority He gave him also to do judgment, because he is Son of Man" (John 5:25, 26, YLT).
John 5:26 means that Christ was the only human being who had eternal life in Himself, because He was the divine-human Messiah.
Quote:
The "original, unborrowed, and underived life" was given to the Son from his Father.
If it had been given, it wouldn’t be original, nor unborrowed, nor underived. “Original”, “unborrowed” and “underived” are three words which mean the same thing – “not received from any source”.
Roseangela: If you believe that "original, unborrowed, and underived life" cannot be given, then you are going to miss out on the greatest gift Jesus Christ, your Saviour, wants to give you.
EGW said: "In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as His personal Saviour." See 1SM 296.
Last edited by Dr.Glenn; 04/16/06 05:41 PM.
grw
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Re: Lesson Study #3 - Jesus and the HOLY SPIRIT
#73227
04/16/06 06:23 PM
04/16/06 06:23 PM
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Posts: 61
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I have been reading these posts with GREAT interest! I do take the position that Dr Glenn takes from what I see. I have a couple of comments. The questions that were posed to Dr. Glenn were puzzleing to me at first and I thought about them a great deal. I want to answer those also. I was baptized in 1964. The beliefs have been changed and I do not agree with the statements of the Trinity and Triune God. Mal. 3:6 says "I am the Lord and I change not." We are counseled by Ellen White to have no creeds. SG3p29. It is man in the wording of our creed who is incorrect. We are like sheep and blindly follow...well, most of us. The early church was in unity about the foundations of our belief. They spent nights in prayer and fasting to reach this point. We do not do that now...and we are in a mess. The person who pointed this out to me has left the organized church but is witnessing as a Seventh day Adventist and has his own home church. He is not accepted by the local Adventists because he speaks out about the truth...therefore he is persecuted when he does. 2 Timothy 3:12 says "All that live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." If we are getting along too well with people who are not teaching the truth what does that say about us? Should we not be speaking out more? Are these Sabbath school quarterlies telling the truth? What if we did really speak out? Would we be asked to leave? Is that persecution? If the church is really your family...I would say it is. If it does not matter to you..then you won't speak out. I never thought this to be such an issue until now. I believe from 1 Cor 10-12 that the Holy Spirit is God's spirit that He sends to us from Himself. (v.11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? EVEN SO the things of God knoweth no man, but the spirit of God.
Romans 8:9,11 tells me that God's spirit (He is the one who raised Jesus from the dead) dwells in me and gives me
life. Rev 3:20 "Behold I stand at the door and knock (what door? the door to my heart)If any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him and he with me." Why would He do that? This is why the spirit HAS to be in us. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ till we all come in the UNITY OF THE FAITH, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. Eph 4: 12,13.
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