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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73849
06/08/06 12:56 AM
06/08/06 12:56 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Vaster, I would remind you that I used to sit where you are now sitting. I have been through all these arguments. I would suggest that you apply the arguments you have used to the case of Jonah and Nineveh. Make them fit then we can see who has his mind made up and dare not move.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73850
06/08/06 04:40 AM
06/08/06 04:40 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Darius, I understand your point. You are saying that the prophecy of Nineveh was stated in an unconditional way, so that anyone reading Scripture would think that Nineveh would for sure would be destroyed. But it wasn't, even though God made no provision for this, as related in Scripture. However, it is God's character to forgive whenever one repents, prophecy notwithstanding. This principle is laid out in Jeramiah 18:
5Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
So if God forgave Nineveh, even though there was not prophecy saying He would, why won't He forgive the wicked in the second ressurection, even though there is not prophecy saying so. That's the idea you're presenting.
However, God will not forgive without repentance, or, better stated (since God always forgives), the wicked will not receive repentance without a change of heart. God respects free will, and will not force anyone to repent. So my question is, on what basis do you think any of the wicked will repent, let alone all of them? Their character is widely known by God, which is why God raises them in the second resurrection instead of the first one. One of the basic priniples of Adventism is that the character does not change when one is resurrected.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73851
06/08/06 05:54 AM
06/08/06 05:54 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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In both Nineveh and the preflood world, people where evil.
God sent Jonah to Nineveh and Noah to the preflood world with the message that the peoples wickedness was going to be destroyed with the city/world.
The preflood people didnt change but continued as they had always done. The Nineveans sought God covering themselves in sackcloth and ash.
God saved all in the preflood world who listened to His warning, in all 8 people.
God saved all in Nineveh who listened to His warning, the entire city repented so no destruction was brought on it.
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73852
06/08/06 12:01 PM
06/08/06 12:01 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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That's not my reasoning, Tom. The present theology ignores three important points. First, something happened to make the implementation of a Plan of Salvation necessary. Second, by their actions Adam and Eve implicated the entire race. Third, the human race never asked to be rescued.
These point to one vital point. Forgiveness had to be completed before the plan of salvation could have been implemented. The human race was forgiven way back in Eden. It is on the basis of this forgiveness that God came to reclaim us from the enemy who claimed ua as his own.
Incidentally, Nineveh was destroyed just as Jonah said but he was as shortsighted as we are today. After the people repented the Nineveh that prompted the Creator to send Jonah no longer existed. The people destroyed it. It is too sad that modern Christians have this penchant for blood and violence. Destruction does not have to be bloody.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73853
06/08/06 01:22 PM
06/08/06 01:22 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Thats one interesting thought. However, to have the same happen on the scale of the entire earth, then everyone alive (or at the very least the overwhelming majority) would have to do what the Ninevites did. Repent and humble themselves after hearing Gods word preached. It is hard to imagen that happening in a society where an ever growing number of people have made it their personal buisness to work against Jesus and everyone who preaches about Him.
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73854
06/08/06 02:11 PM
06/08/06 02:11 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
These point to one vital point. Forgiveness had to be completed before the plan of salvation could have been implemented. The human race was forgiven way back in Eden. It is on the basis of this forgiveness that God came to reclaim us from the enemy who claimed us as his own.
I agree with this. However, even thought the race has been corporately saved, individuals can still choose whom they will server. Many choose not to respond to God's kindness. Why do you think this will ever change?
Regarding Nineveh, every other person I've had discussions regarding Universalism has used Nineveh along the lines of the argument I presented, so it was no surprise to me that you would reference it. However, I was surprised to read that you are using some other line of reasoning in regards to it. Could you outline your reasoning?
Jonah said that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days, not simply that it would be destroyed. It wasn't, and the reasons are laid out in Jeremiah 18, as I quoted.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73855
06/08/06 03:34 PM
06/08/06 03:34 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Quote:
Darius, I understand your point. You are saying that the prophecy of Nineveh was stated in an unconditional way, so that anyone reading Scripture would think that Nineveh would for sure would be destroyed. But it wasn't, even though God made no provision for this, as related in Scripture. However, it is God's character to forgive whenever one repents, prophecy notwithstanding. This principle is laid out in Jeramiah 18:
So if God forgave Nineveh, even though there was not prophecy saying He would, why won't He forgive the wicked in the second ressurection, even though there is not prophecy saying so. That's the idea you're presenting.
However, God will not forgive without repentance, or, better stated (since God always forgives), the wicked will not receive repentance without a change of heart. God respects free will, and will not force anyone to repent. So my question is, on what basis do you think any of the wicked will repent, let alone all of them? Their character is widely known by God, which is why God raises them in the second resurrection instead of the first one. One of the basic priniples of Adventism is that the character does not change when one is resurrected.
I like your points.
This line of thought that God will forgive everyone at the end of time, or that everyone will repent, is a new twist to what Satan did in the Garden to Eve, Gen 2:4 “Ye shall not surely die”.
Christ stated that many are called but few shall answer. Did he lie?
These thoughts that everyone will be saved at the very end is nothing more than “new age” doctrines. Many times this comes from reading poorly translated “bibles”. Sounds like a, I’m ok your ok religion.
The Bible is plain the wicked WILL be destroyed. There are way to many Bible Prophecies that all say this will happen. They have a chance to be saved this does not mean that they will be saved.
Did the people in Noah’s time, which were not on the boat, are they going to get a second chance and still be saved? What about all those children?
No, there will not be a second chance for any wicked person.
If they are all saved and they will all repent before the Second Coming, then the Bible has many false statements from cover to cover.
What is one to believe, the theories (intellectual philosophies) that all are saved and all will be saved or the Holy Scriptures, few will be saved?
Peace and Grace
Last edited by the1888message; 06/08/06 05:08 PM.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73856
06/08/06 05:08 PM
06/08/06 05:08 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Tom and Vaster, the point is that if any human ends up in hell, though it seems that the God is going out of His way not to have to do so, it will not be because they were not saved. Everyone has the right to independently rebel. The proble is that too many humans believe they can figure who has rebelled. We think that anyone who does not accept our Revelation Seminar propaganda must be in rebellion. That is presumption and borders on blasphemy by presuming to speak for the Creator.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73857
06/08/06 05:12 PM
06/08/06 05:12 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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1888 I suggest you read my posts more carefully instead of assuming you are reading what you have read elsewhere. I did not say what you have presented me as saying.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73858
06/08/06 05:13 PM
06/08/06 05:13 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Quote:
Tom and Vaster, the point is that if any human ends up in hell, though it seems that the God is going out of His way not to have to do so, it will not be because they were not saved. Everyone has the right to independently rebel. The proble is that too many humans believe they can figure who has rebelled. We think that anyone who does not accept our Revelation Seminar propaganda must be in rebellion. That is presumption and borders on blasphemy by presuming to speak for the Creator.
This “Intellectual Philosophy” about everyone being saved is so against everything that the Bible teaches.
However, you made a point that the “Revelation Seminar propaganda”. I wonder if you could expound on this point. Are you saying that it is all lies or parts of it?
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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