In the SDA Bible Commentary, v. 7 p 971 there is an interesting quote by Sister White on the seven thunders of Revelation 10:

"After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the injunction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered." These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order."

If we stopped there, we'd have to conclude that the seven thunders are in the future. But Sister White goes on to connect the seven thunders with the error of the Millerites regarding time. Some Adventists see the passage this way only, but looking at the entire passage, I think it is clear that she also makes an application of the thunders to the future. Notice the preceeding and following paragraphs and her careful choice of words throughout the passage:

"The mighty angel who instructed John was no less a personage than Jesus Christ. Setting His right foot on the sea, and His left upon the dry land, shows the part which He is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy with Satan. This position denotes His supreme power and authority over the whole earth. The controversy had waxed stronger and more determined from age to age, and will continue to do so, to the concluding scenes when the masterly working of the powers of darkness shall reach their height. Satan, united with evil men, will deceive the whole world and the churches who receive not the love of the truth. But the mighty angel demands attention. He cries with a loud voice. He is to show the power and authority of His voice to those who have united with Satan to oppose the truth.

After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the injunction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered." These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order. Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days. John sees the little book unsealed. Then Daniel's prophecies have their proper place in the first, second, and third angels' messages to be given to the world. The unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time.

The books of Daniel and the Revelation are one. One is a prophecy, the other a revelation; one a book sealed, the other a book opened. John heard the mysteries which the thunders uttered, but he was commanded not to write them.

The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer.

This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.

The angel's position, with one foot on the sea, the other on the land, signifies the wide extent of the proclamation of the message. It will cross the broad waters and be proclaimed in other countries, even to all the world. The comprehension of truth, the glad reception of the message, is represented in the eating of the little book. The truth in regard to the time of the advent of our Lord was a precious message to our souls." (MS 59, 1900).

So, the issues I'd like to discuss are, 1) What is EGW really saying here, and 2) If the thunders are in the past only, what did each of the seven say, and 3) If they are also in the future, and not fully revealed, what does that mean for us.

[This message has been edited by Mark Shipowick (edited October 15, 2001).]

Here's a paper I wrote several several years ago about the 7 Thunders. I met a lady who has studied these thunders out deeply and I think she is right. I don't believe the 7 Thunders are sealed anymore. I believe God wants us to understand them. The 7 Thunders reveal the timing of the Second Advent and with each thunder more information is revealed about that timing. Lest you think I'm uttering heresy, read also the article I'm posting on "timing." I believe that God wants the last generation to know that they are the last generation. He didn't want any previous generations to know that they weren't the last generation so that they wouldn't get discouraged, so for them this knowledge was not present truth and was sealed. In this paper I don't go into great detail about what each thunder is, but I present enough so that one can be pointed in the right direction for study. Here it is:

THE SEVEN THUNDERS OF REVELATION

In 7 BC p. 971, Ellen White tells us about the seven thunders in Revelation. She states:

"After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the injunction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: 'Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered.' These relate to future events WHICH WILL BE DISCLOSED in their order...John heard the mysteries which the thunders uttered, but he was commanded not to write them. The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events WHICH WOULD TRANSPIRE UNDER THE FIRST AND SECOND ANGELS' MESSAGES. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed."

God saw that it was not best for people to understand the thunders until the proper time that He had determined. We believe that in Ellen White's day, if the people had understood the thunders, then some of their beliefs about prophecy would have been corrected which would also have revealed to them that they were not the last generation. We believe that God did not want them to know they were not the last generation because then they would not have worked for God as hard as they did; therefore, He did not correct their beliefs. Besides Rev. 10:4 in which John was told the seven thunders exist, we have found that there are exactly seven places in Revelation where thunder is mentioned. These seven thunders are found in the following verses: Rev. 4:5; Rev. 6:1; Rev. 8:5-6; Rev. 11:19; Rev. 14:2-6; Rev. 16:18; and Rev. 19:6. We have found that these thunders are intimately connected to the seals and the trumpets. For example, Rev. 6:1 states:

"Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, 'Come and see.'"

This is the opening of the first seal and one of the thunders also occurs here. Another example is Rev. 8:5, 6 which states:

"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."

Here we find that both the first seal and the trumpets are connected to the thunders. Ellen White tells us that these thunders occur under the first and second angels' messages. 7BC 971 The first and second angels' messages began sounding in the pre-1844 movement and continue sounding until the close of probation. THEREFORE, SINCE THE FIRST SEAL AND THE TRUMPETS OCCUR AT THE SAME TIME THAT TWO OF THE THUNDERS OCCUR, AND SINCE THE THUNDERS OCCUR UNDER THE FIRST AND SECOND ANGELS' MESSAGES, THEN THE FIRST SEAL AND THE TRUMPETS MUST OCCUR ALSO UNDER THE FIRST AND SECOND ANGELS' MESSAGES WHICH SOUND FROM APPROXIMATELY 1798 AD TO THE CLOSE OF PROBATION. This is additional proof that we are not as far along in the seals as we had thought, and also that the trumpets are yet future.

The church says that the first seal began in the days of the apostles (See God Cares p. 182, 183), but here we see one can figure out, from the writings of Ellen White, that the first seal began under the first and second angels' messages.

Ellen White states in Counsels to Writers and Editors p. 37,

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. GOD AND HEAVEN ALONE ARE INFALLIBLE. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed."

We believe that the 27 Fundamental Doctrines of the SDA Church are set in concrete and must not be tampered with. Our pioneers wisely did not put much of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation in the 27 doctrines because they understood that new light on these subjects would come. Ellen White tells us to study these prophecies like never before, because new light on the prophecies will come (see TM p. 112-118). She also tells us that we will have to change some of our opinions and until we do so, we can never have the unity for which Christ prayed. It is our prayer that this unity will be achieved among those in the SDA Church and among all of God's true people wherever they are.

In conclusion, Ellen White states,

"We are nearing the time when the prophecies of the book of Revelation ARE TO BE FULFILLED...When the books of Daniel and Revelation are better understood, believers will have an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE. They will be given such glimpses of the open gates of heaven that heart and mind will be impressed with the character that all must develop in order to realize the blessedness which is to be the reward of the pure in heart...Those who eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of God will bring from the books of Daniel and Revelation truth that is inspired by the Holy Spirit. THEY WILL START INTO ACTION FORCES THAT CANNOT BE REPRESSED. The lips of children will be opened to proclaim the mysteries that have been hidden from the minds of men. We are standing on the threshold of great and solemn events. Many of the prophecies are ABOUT TO BE FULFILLED in quick succession. Every element of power is about to be set to work. Past history will be repeated; old controversies will arouse to new life, and peril will beset God's people on every side...Study Revelation in connection with Daniel, for HISTORY WILL BE REPEATED...We, with all our religious advantages, ought to know far more today than we do know." TM p. 113-116.

Here we find that Ellen White states that new truths from Daniel and Revelation will be brought forth which bring about a deep revival in all who study these things. This revival among God's people will spread and will not be repressed. It is our prayer that each of you experience this wonderful revival along with a deep transformation of heart, that you might be prepared for Jesus' soon coming. Study, study, study...like never before...for your salvation depends upon it!

Jean,

Apparently the thunders you refer to have nothing to do with the seven thunders of Rev. 10. This is pretty certain for the following reasons:

1. As Rev. 5 opens, no one, not even Christ can open the sealed book.
2. Not until the lion has conquered (sin, Satan, and the grave) can He open the book.
3. Not until the Lamb has just been slain can he open the book.
4. This is why EGW quotes the praises found in Rev. 5 in 3SP in connection with the ascension of Christ.
5. Additionally, the scene is the Holy Place, not the Most Holy Place.
6. Every element of the first seal can be found in Ps. 45 (white/righteousness, horse/ride, bow/arrows, crown/king, conquering/ride prosperously), where Christ is shooting arrows into people's hearts.
7. The reason the people were "pricked in their hearts" on the day of Pentecost is because of those arrows.
8. "The arguments of the apostles alone, though clear and convincing, would not have removed the prejudice that had withstood so much evidence. But the Holy Spirit sent the arguments home to hearts with divine power. The words of the apostles were as sharp arrows of the Almighty, convicting men of their terrible guilt in rejecting and crucifying the Lord of glory." AA 45

Obviously, this puts the first seal long before the first angel's message started. Besides, since the great earthquake of the 6th seal took place in 1755 and the dark day in 1780, awhile before Daniel was unsealed in 1798, then the first 6 seals had to begin long before the first angel's message commenced.

As far as the trumpets go, you will notice in Rev. 8 that the time context of the trumpets is given, even as Rev. 5 gives the time context of the seals. The high priest offered incense daily on the golden altar, and yearly put coals of fire into a censer before going into the Most Holy. Thus the trumpets have to begin with Christ's daily work and extend through His yearly work, through the close of probation, to the second coming.

If you think about what I've just written, you will see that I am not afraid of new ideas or deep study. But before I throw out the old I first study to see if that is necessary. Indeed, I find that it is not even permissable, exegetically speaking.

Check out my paper on the seven trumpets at http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/seven-trumpets.htm .

[This message has been edited by Pickle (edited October 19, 2001).]

Jean and Bob, to summarize, you both think the thunders are unsealed, Bob in the past,and Jean in the present. I have an idea of what both of you think they are saying, but I'd like to hear it from you. If there is only one message Bob, why are there seven thunders? Jean, if the thunders are linked to the seals and trumpets, what do they add to them?

On the seven trumpets being in the future, Bob, have you seen Marvin Moore's book on this. Moore is editor of Signs of the Times and he makes a good case for a future literal application.

Mark,

Why seven thunders if one message? From 1831 when Miller began preaching up till Oct. 22, 1844, there were a number of distinct events that occurred. At some point the message started going to the large cities after J. V. Himes teamed up with Miller. The start of the camp meetings was another major event. The convening of the general conference of Advent believers was another one. Of course the passing of the time in the spring of 1844 was another one. S. S. Snow's preaching of Christ coming that fall was most assuredly another one. Christ not coming after all on Oct. 22 was another one.

In saying this I am not identifying what the seven thunders actually are. How can I? There is not enough information to pinpoint the specific events beyond all doubt. But the fact remains that there were a number of important events that occurred connected to the 1st and 2nd angels' messages.

I don't think I've seen Moore's book. At a ministers' meeting in Iowa-Missouri a pastor asked him about futurism. I later offered to send him some material that would say something different, but he said that he was too busy to read it.

This is not good. If we are going to present "new light," we have to be open to the possibility that we are wrong, and we have to make the time to review other positions so that we can be certain that we are correct. More on this in a moment.

It is unrealistic to place the 7 trumpets in the future. First of all, the symbolism used is all scripturally tied to military conquest, as pointed out in my paper. How can we have that many wars yet to occur in the future?

Secondly, as pointed out in http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/seven-trumpets.htm#prob , a future fulfillment of the 4th trumpet is presently impossible.

Thirdly, if we put any of the first six trumpets in the future, we are putting Rev. 10 and 11 also in the future. And if Rev. 10 is future, then Daniel is not yet unsealed, the 2300 days have not yet ended, the investigative judgment has not yet begun, and we must yet have two world-wide messages occur before Christ can return.

Back to "too busy." A number of years ago we had a SS quarterly that said that the signs of the sixth seal would be repeated. I wrote two letters to the author about that kind of thing. The reply from the author's secretary was that the author was too busy to respond.

The author had used GC's description of the 2nd coming, with darkness enveloping the earth and a great earthquake, to substantiate the idea that the earthquake and dark day of the 6th seal would be repeated. After pondering this a bit, I thought of the following, which was included in one of my letters:

In the 6th seal we have an earthquake first followed by darkness, but in GC's description of the 2nd coming, we have darkness first followed by an earthquake. Thus what will happen at the 2nd coming can't be another fulfillment of the 6th seal, for the order is different.

If we want to look in Revelation for what GC says will happen at the 2nd coming, we have to look at the 5th and 7th plagues. There we have darkness first, and then an earthquake.

Once again, the very passage in the spirit of prophecy used to substantiate a future application of a past prophecy in actuality repudiates such a future application. If the only future dark day will be the one at the 2nd coming, then the 6th seal will never ever be repeated. There will never ever again be a great earthquake followed by a darkened sun followed by a red moon followed by falling stars followed by the heavens departing as a scroll (coming soon).

[This message has been edited by Pickle (edited October 20, 2001).]

Again, I’d suggest that if we do not know what the seven thunders said, we have nothing to prove that they have sounded.

Are there any other ideas or thoughts on this point? Please email me directly to ensure a reply. I forgot to turn on the notification function when I posted this.
Bye for now.

[This message has been edited by Mark Shipowick (edited October 28, 2001).]

Mark,

quote:

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Again, I’d suggest that if we do not know what the seven thunders said, we have nothing to prove that they have sounded.

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Yes we do. Since Jesus testified that they delineate events under the 1st and 2nd angel's messages, that is proof that the 7 thunders are past.

I don't have time right now to give a full reply, but in brief, since when the first seal is opened there is also thunder, and it's the first time thunder is mentioned in Revelation, I believe that the first seal is the first thunder. Since Ellen White said that the thunders were events that happened under the first and second angels' messages, then I believe that this first thunder occurred during the 1844 movement. However, she says that the first and second angels' messages will be repeated. I think that this repeat is yet in the future and will occur at the beginning of the time of trouble. The reason I think that is because the 1st and 2nd angels' messages announce the judgment. I think that God will send a great movement on this earth when the Judgment of the Living is about to start just like He did when the Judgment of the Dead was about to start. (See my thread on the Judgment.) That is why the first and second angels' messages will be repeated, and then the third angels' message will be added that the mark of the beast is about to happen.

I don't believe all of the thunders have yet occurred, just some of them. And, if you study very carefully what Ellen White says about the thunders, you see that she keeps mentioning TIME. Thus, I think that when each thunder occurs, we are given more light as to the timing of the Second Advent. I have a friend who has done a very deep study on this. She compared the thunders to a pregnant woman. When she first finds out she is pregnant, she knows that in about 10 months she will have a baby, but she does not know exactly, as that baby could come as much as a month or two early. But, as her pregnancy progresses, she gets more and more signs about "when" this baby will be born--especially as she gets closer to the time. Thus, the same with the thunders. Each thunder gives us more light to start narrowing down closer and closer as to when the Second Advent will occur. For instance, right now we don't know the day or the hour or even the year, but we do know that the Second Coming will be in the fall (see my thread on the Feast of Tabernacles for this). Also, with the 1844 movement we found out that this world is in the process of winding down--we are towards the end, since the Judgment of the Dead started back then. That gave us the clue that we're not going to be here for hundreds more years yet. So, the 1844 movement did give us some more light about where we are in earth's history (time), so since the thunders are related to time, then, just like Ellen White said, under the first and second angels' messages in the 1844 movement we did learn more about where we are in earth's history.

Jean,

1. The first thunder cannot possibly occur at the same time as the first seal. I gave 8 points on this above.

   Do you have other explanations for the points I raised?

2. Ellen White says that the 1st and 2nd angels' messages will be repeated, and they are in Rev. 18. But saying that the messages will be repeated isn't the same as saying that their is a dual fulfillment.

3. If you look at 7BC 971, you will find that when she talks about the 7 thunders and their connection with the 1st and 2nd angels' messages, she uses verbs that are all in past tense.

4. She includes all 7 thunders in this discussion of the past. Thus we have no real basis for saying that any of the events they described haven't happened yet.

5. We have two quotes, 4MR 89 and 21MR 101, that say that the (presumably little) time of trouble has already started.

I finally did a Bible software word search on "seven thunders" and discovered that the only place they are mentioned in the whole Bible is in Revelation 10 as quoted below:

quote:

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Revelation 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
Revelation 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

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Does anybody know of any other Bible references that relate to the only obvious one ablout the seven thunders quoted above?

Now, or later, as time permits, to do the same word search through the SOP writings.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl