Bob, after a week's vacation, I re-read my last post, and I have to admit, I sound like the strident voice myself. My apologies for that unfriendly tone.

Before making some comments on this topic, I want to draw your attention to what Adventbeliever has posted under the 1888 thread in the SDA Church Issues section. Good material. I hope many more will join in that discussion.

Greg and Bob, we want the Holy Spirit to guide our minds as we study. Let's not close the door to His leading by attributing a point of view that we may not fully understand to Satan.

Bob, why do you think that the triumphal entry was not the same day as the cleansing? My memory of the gospel accounts is that the two events happened on the same day. Is there anything in the Bible or SOP you can point me to?

And Bob, what about this quote:

"Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative and seek to avoid discussion." T5 p. 706.2.

I stated above:

"We need to foster open enquiry regarding prophecy and not attempt to seal up the scroll with our own interpretations. The contemporaries of William Miller tried to do this and rather than sealing up the prophecies, keeping them from the people, they sealed themselves off from the influence of the Holy Spirit. October 22, 1844 came and went, and the conservative churchmen who preached peace and safety did not discern the movement of Christ into the Most Holy Place."

It is not only a possibility, but a certainty that if we stick to only established doctrine, we will not receive the latter rain that will issue from the sanctuary. Like the churchmen of Miller's day, Christ's work within the Holiest will be lost on us.

My main purpose in studying the prophecies from a fresh perspective is to understand better what Christ will do when the latter rain is poured out. For several years now I have been scouring the apocalyptic prophecies to see what Christ will do and how the church will respond. Like you, Bob, I have preconceived ideas on most topics, I am blind, and I have to ask for sight. Let's all admit our blindness.

But the latter rain is the most significant event in history. The sacrifice of Christ is the foundation for it, but the fruition of His work will be manifested in the latter rain. If that is true, lets look at the prophecies with the that in mind, and be ready to expect that the prophecies of this greatest of events will be given full coverage.

So, let me ask you, if the latter rain is accompanied by a blaze of light, won't the scroll be opened at the same time? The scroll of our individual cases is opened as the Holy Spirit enlightens our consciences of our character deficiencies. In the same way, the scroll of the corporate body of Christ is opened as it's collective character is tested corporately with the light of prophetic and spiritual truth.

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

In Acts 15 we see that the Apostle James with the help of other leading apostles successfully resolved the single most significant crisis within the New Testament Church. The crisis was precipitated by Judaizing Christians who were attempting to impose their peculiar views of the role of the ceremonial law on their fellow Gentile believers. James applied the prophecy of Amos 9 to the harvest of Gentile believers that the church witnessed under the ministry of the early rain. Here is the background of the event and the Apostle’s counsel:

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. . . .And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. . . .Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God.”

There are many other prophecies in the Old Testament that refer to the restoration of the Davidic kingdom. Most evangelical Christians are also aware of the one quoted by James above and along with others, evangelical Christians apply them to literal Israel. Adventists do not have an official position on the issue but we often counter the position of our evangelical friends with the argument that the Davidic promises were conditional on Israel’s obedience. But note above, that James applies the David promises not to literal Israel of the past (as SDA’s do) and not to literal Israel of the future (as evangelicals do), but to the conversion of the Gentiles under the early rain. If James can break ranks with all of us and apply the Davidic promises to the early rain harvest of the Gentiles, would it be wrong to make a second application of these same Davidic promises to the latter rain?

I say that we’re missing something important if we do not make that connection. Bob, and the rest, how if we take some time to examine the Davidic promises in light of the above application made by the Apostle, including and especially those parts of Revelation where Christ is portrayed as the Branch of David, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. The Lion will show his teeth most fully under the latter rain. And, praise God, the Lamb will be most fully revealed under that dispensation also.

Bob, I don't think I can say anything more than I have already posted concerning a future view of the seals and trumpets. What makes sense to me did not make sense to you. Hopefully we can both be at peace with our respective theologies. And time will tell soon enough the truth.

Mark, can you please restate your thoughts on the early rain and the latter rain. Or maybe you can start a new thread, if one hasn't already been started. Thanx.

Mike, I agree with you that the trumpets have a future application, but I place them before the close of probation. I do the same with the seals, and I think they cover the same pre-close-of-probation period.

Above I am saying that both the seals and the trumpets have their complete fulfilment during the latter rain, and part of the evidence of this is contained in the Davidic promises which are also linked to the prophecies regarding Zion, the location of the City of David, and these in turn, are linked to the 144,000.

The 144,000 stand with the Lamb, not on Mount Moriah, the temple mount, but on Mount Zion, the location of the City of David. Revelation 14:1-5. They are perfected, the latter rain having done its work.

Does that help Mike?

When I'm able to spare the time, I'll make some comments on Bob's new thread regarding the trumpets and you're questions on the first part of Revelation 8.

For now, I think that this subject is in the right location, and I hope you'll join us Mike in exploring the dual applications of the Davidic prophecies.

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Mark,

Apologies accepted.

Triumphal entry on Sunday; cleansing on Monday: Mk. 11:11, 15; 3SP 17; DA 581.

5T 706: I am all for investigating further and discussing it, as you can probably tell from the fact that I do present new and unheard-of-before ideas. And I really don't care about "established doctrine" that was established by man. But I think it is wrong when we cast doubt upon "established doctrines" that have been established by God.

Take for instance E. J. Waggonner. Jesus said point blank that there would be no marrying in the new earth. Well, he thought he had found a way to prove that there would be, and that that person might be someone different than your present spouse, and that you could have a spiritual relationship with them now.

Whether he repented of his speculation after Ellen White wrote him I don't know, but he eventually found himself divorced over the matter.

It is an absolute certainty that if we don't stick with the established doctrines that have been established by God, we cannot receive the latter rain.

What you said about the scroll seems to combine a couple of the ways that Ellen White used the phrase. Feel free to elaborate further.

On James' use of Amos, the Davidic promises have always been partly unconditional. It is referring to the restoration of the house of David when Christ becomes king.

As far as the Gentiles go, we don't have to look for a dual application of this prophecy. It was 3 1/2 years after the early rain started before the Gentiles started being gathered in. That gathering in hasn't ceased and won't cease until the close of probation. So Amos' prophecy has been in process of fulfillment for almost 2000 years.

Mike,

As I said before, I just wanted to see how you would relate a future application to the fact that the intro to the seals refers to a time when every creature alive in the entire universe is praising God, and the intro to the trumpets refers to a time before 1844, before the coals are put in the censer. But if you don't care to respond, that's all right.

Thanks Bob for the references to the triumphal entry. You’re right that Christ cleansed the temple on the day after his triumphal entry. Sister White makes some statements in the Desire of Ages that confirm the gospel account that from the time of his triumphal entry, Christ assumed a kingly authority that he had never demonstrated before. So the final four days before His crucifixion are especially significant and are worthy of special attention, especially in light of the fact that they seem to have their antitype in the lamb being set aside from the 10th day forward.

Above I quoted from Sister White about the dangers of following conservative churchmen. Bob contends that because he has some original ideas that he is not one of these. He has mentioned above that Waggoner missed the mark on the divorce issue and cites this an example of how one can fall off the path. But the test of whether we are one of those who are attempting to shut out light that is being imparted by the Holy Spirit is not whether we have some original thoughts, but whether we are opened to the leading of the Spirit.

In the posts of Adventbeliever on the 1888 message under the SDA Church Issues section, we have the strongest examples of those who were opened to the Holy Spirit and those who were not. I have to ask myself which camp I fall into. Today there are still those who resist the 1888 message by attempting to discredit the messengers, bringing out the weaknesses of Jones and Waggoner and their ultimate apostasy. But one of the tests of whether we are opened to God’s leading is how we accept the message that heaven sent at that time. If we focus on the weaknesses and apostasy of the messenger, we are imbibing the spirit of those who have much to answer for in keeping the light of truth away from the church.

One of the tactics that these individuals always use is the contention that they are staying with “established doctrine”. But this is a cloak for refusing to accepting new light that builds on established doctrine. There will always be these two camps - those who will advance in truth, and those who will not.

If I could see some evidence that any of my thoughts would be given a fair hearing with Bob, I would be happy to continue discussing them. But I’ve introduced several ideas, such as the one above on the Davidic promises, and again Bob has dismissed this one out of hand. He has ignored the main point that the latter rain is the culmination of all apocalyptic prophecy and the Davidic promises will be fulfilled at that time.

I could carry on with the Davidic prophecies that have both an early and a latter rain application. But since Bob started this thread with the purpose of opposing dual applications, it would be better respect his opinion and to move to another thread.

A final word. Bob, I respect your thoroughness and your scholarship. I hope we will eventually come to the place where we have more agreement. If I can summarize, you think that all dual applications are potentially dangerous. I think that descriptions of the latter rain, end time events and our marching orders are contained within many of the prophecies that we place in the past. So it is understandable that we view these things as non-negotiables.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Mark, thank you for clarifying those thoughts for me. I also believe that the seals will be fulfilled again before the close of probation - but - it looks as though only the first 5 seals will be fulfilled before probation closes, and that the next two happen afterwards.

But the trumpets, it seems to me, will be fulfilled again only this time after probation closes, as seems to be indicated by the casting down of the censer.

You have probably noticed from the 1888 thread that I'm still struggling with your suggestion that the latter rain has been continuously falling since the late 1880's. Which is why I'm having a hard time accepting other ideas based on this premise.

Bob, you probably realize that I do not interpret Rev 5:13 and 8:3,4 the same way you do. Which is one of the many reasons why we haven't been able to see eye to eye on a future application of the seals and trumpets.

I do not believe that Rev 5:13 is describing a post-millennial festival of praising God. I see it as happening before the seals are opened. Thus the wording you interpret to mean that the evil angels are praising God too, I take to mean that John saw beings everywhere expressing their gratitude that Jesus is worthy and about to open the seals - and not that they are thankful years later it's already a done deal.

And Rev 8:3,4 I see as a whole including verse 5. The entire context of this passage is concerned with events surrounding the use of the golden censer on the day of atonement. On that day the veil was pulled away exposing the MHP. During this time there was nothing dividing the HP and the MHP, essentially turning the temple into a single room. Under these circumstances one would be able to see the furnishings of both apartments at the same time.

Therefore, it makes sense that John should see the altar of incense on the day of atonement, especially considering it stood directly in front of the ark of the covenant now that the veil was drawn aside. That, on the day of atonement, Jesus would place incense on the altar on His way into the MHP, and that He would take coals from it on His way back out, only makes sense to me.

But to say that Rev 8:3,4 describes Jesus performing the daily in the HP until 1844, and verse 5 pictures Him casting down the censer when probation closes just doesn't make sense to me personally. The high priest did not use the censer on a daily basis in the HP. It was used on the day of atonement as a portable incense burner so that the prayers of God's people could attend the high priest while in the MHP.

Thus, the fact this censer is in use in Rev 8:3-5 clearly indicates that Jesus is involved with issues associated with the day of atonement beginning in 1844 and ending with the close of probation, at which time the trumpets are sounded. Also, I do not associate the voices, thunderings, lightnings, and the earthquake mentioned in Rev 8:6 with the 7th plague. I believe like in Rev 4:5 John saw these signs the way an orchestra introduces a new section with a bang.