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Role of the 144,000 #86483
03/16/07 06:06 AM
03/16/07 06:06 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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I just listened to a sermon by Dennis Priebe. You can find the details here and download the sermon here.

What I understood him to say was that Christ's life was insufficient to convince the universe that man can obey God's law, that the 144k is the final "proof" that man can keep God's law. Without the perfection of the 144k, the whole human race would be lost, including the faithful ones of old.

Listen to the sermon and tell me what you think.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: asygo] #86486
03/16/07 10:28 AM
03/16/07 10:28 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
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Ok, so this guy is saying that the church has something to add to what Jesus has already done? The angels must be a sceptic bunch not to trust in God but demanding another sign, in perfection of the lives of the last generation of the church. And that he ended the sermon by saying that we are letting preaching Christ getting in our way from perfecting ourselves? Not in those exact words, but like "saving souls" is at best a secondary goal for our work on perfection...

He quotes: Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
and argues that this means that if we do not achive perfection, all of those who went before us will also be lost.

I wonder, can anyone here show that Pauls greeting in his letter to Galatia does not apply here?


Gal 1
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Oh, and while I still remember it, he also argued that we have our priorities all wrong:

""The law of Jehovah is the tree; the gospel is the fragrant blossoms and fruit which it bears.(RH, April 5, 1898 par. 2/1SM 211.2)" doesnt that turn it right upside down? We usually think of the gospel as the tree producing obedience to Gods law. Here it is just reversed. That the law is the tree, the law is God, the law is His character, the law is his government, the law is the way God is and the way God is produces love and grace and mercy. The gospel. It is out of the law that the gospel flows and if you take away the law, there is no gospel, there is only favouritism. And unfair practises. 15:18-16:06

I prefer Ellens version of it:
There is no safety nor repose nor justification in transgression of the law. Man cannot hope to stand innocent before God, and at peace with Him through the merits of Christ, while he continues in sin. He must cease to transgress, and become loyal and true. As the sinner looks into the great moral looking glass, he sees his defects of character. He sees himself just as he is, spotted, defiled, and condemned. But he knows that the law cannot in any way remove the guilt or pardon the transgressor. He must go farther than this. The law is but the schoolmaster to bring him to Christ. He must look to his sin-bearing Saviour. And as Christ is revealed to him upon the cross of Calvary, dying beneath the weight of the sins of the whole world, the Holy Spirit shows him the attitude of God to all who repent of their transgressions. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). {1SM 213.2}

last quote:
"Thank goodness that we dont have to depend soley upon the faithfullness of Go.. those whom God has chosen to represent him." 12:00 :-o

/Thomas


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: vastergotland] #86497
03/16/07 04:19 PM
03/16/07 04:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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 Quote:
What I understood him to say was that Christ's life was insufficient to convince the universe that man can obey God's law, that the 144k is the final "proof" that man can keep God's law. Without the perfection of the 144k, the whole human race would be lost, including the faithful ones of old.

If Jesus settled everything, if He disproved all of Satan’s lies and accusations, why, then, are we still here? Why aren’t we in heaven? Why isn’t Satan and sinners dead and gone? Why is God allowing the great controversy to continue?

If Jesus won the great controversy on the cross, or at His resurrection, why, then, is it still going on? What more must be proven in order for God to win great controversy, to destroy sin and sinners in the lake of fire, to restore paradise?

Sister White explains why the great controversy did not end at the cross. She gives two reasons: 1) Holy angels did not understand all that was involved in the great controversy, and 2) Satan changed tactics, his strategy.

 Quote:
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}

By His life and His death, Christ proved that God's justice did not destroy His mercy, but that sin could be forgiven, and that the law is righteous, and can be perfectly obeyed. Satan's charges were refuted. God had given man unmistakable evidence of His love. {DA 762.4}

Another deception was now to be brought forward. Satan declared that mercy destroyed justice, that the death of Christ abrogated the Father's law. Had it been possible for the law to be changed or abrogated, then Christ need not have died. But to abrogate the law would be to immortalize transgression, and place the world under Satan's control. It was because the law was changeless, because man could be saved only through obedience to its precepts, that Jesus was lifted up on the cross. Yet the very means by which Christ established the law Satan represented as destroying it. Here will come the last conflict of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. {DA 762.5}

That the law which was spoken by God's own voice is faulty, that some specification has been set aside, is the claim which Satan now puts forward. It is the last great deception that he will bring upon the world. He needs not to assail the whole law; if he can lead men to disregard one precept, his purpose is gained. For "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10. By consenting to break one precept, men are brought under Satan's power. By substituting human law for God's law, Satan will seek to control the world. This work is foretold in prophecy. Of the great apostate power which is the representative of Satan, it is declared, "He shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand." Dan. 7:25. {DA 763.1}

Men will surely set up their laws to counterwork the laws of God. They will seek to compel the consciences of others, and in their zeal to enforce these laws they will oppress their fellow men. {DA 763.2}

The warfare against God's law, which was begun in heaven, will be continued until the end of time. Every man will be tested. Obedience or disobedience is the question to be decided by the whole world. All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men. Here the dividing line will be drawn. There will be but two classes. Every character will be fully developed; and all will show whether they have chosen the side of loyalty or that of rebellion. {DA 763.3}

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

Personally, I do not subscribe to the final generation theology as it is normally presented. I believe character perfection has been available to everyone since the beginning of the great controversy. The difference between the resurrection generation (the great multitude) and the translation generation (the 144,000) is not character perfection; no, the only real difference has to do with whether or not they are resurrected or translated.

No one is saved based on their “fitness for heaven”. Everyone is saved based on their “title to heaven”. Some resurrected saints are more mature, more seasoned, more developed than some translated saints. In other words, they are more fit for heaven. In fact, people like Paul and John are more mature, more fit than the fittest of translated saints. They would have fared more famously during the final tribulation than did the translated saints.

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Mountain Man] #86506
03/16/07 06:09 PM
03/16/07 06:09 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
 Quote:
What I understood him to say was that Christ's life was insufficient to convince the universe that man can obey God's law, that the 144k is the final "proof" that man can keep God's law. Without the perfection of the 144k, the whole human race would be lost, including the faithful ones of old.

If Jesus settled everything, if He disproved all of Satan’s lies and accusations, why, then, are we still here? Why aren’t we in heaven? Why isn’t Satan and sinners dead and gone? Why is God allowing the great controversy to continue?
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some people understand slowness, but is being patient with you. He does not want anyone to perish, but wants everyone to come to repentance.
 Quote:

If Jesus won the great controversy on the cross, or at His resurrection, why, then, is it still going on? What more must be proven in order for God to win great controversy, to destroy sin and sinners in the lake of fire, to restore paradise?

Sister White explains why the great controversy did not end at the cross. She gives two reasons: 1) Holy angels did not understand all that was involved in the great controversy, and 2) Satan changed tactics, his strategy.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: vastergotland] #86507
03/16/07 06:16 PM
03/16/07 06:16 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Concerning the quotes from DA, just as the passage quoted in the sermon from 1 SM, I have no doubt that they in their right and full context are bad news for this sermon. Context in Ellens works is bad news for prooftext preachers.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Mountain Man] #86508
03/16/07 06:25 PM
03/16/07 06:25 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I think the difference has to do with light. For example:

 Quote:
It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth....

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)


The role of the 144,000 is to make known the wondrous good news about God! His character is to be made known. This couldn't be done earlier, because the truth was obscured by wrong ideas regarding God (just one example; He tortures for eternity those who disobey Him).

While there is an ancillary benefit for the angels, Ellen White points out the for them the Great Controversy was settled at the cross. That doesn't mean that can't still learn something new, but they don't need us in order to be settled in their own mind. They are completely as sure, since the cross, as to the character of the protagonists:

 Quote:
Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds...

Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings.(DA 758, 761)


The following statement really makes this point clear:

 Quote:
It was in order that the heavenly universe might see the conditions of the covenant of redemption that Christ bore the penalty in behalf of the human race. The throne of Justice must be eternally and forever made secure, even tho the race be wiped out, and another creation populate the earth. By the sacrifice Christ was about to make, all doubts would be forever settled, and the human race would be saved if they would return to their allegiance. Christ alone could restore honor to God’s government. The cross of Calvary would be looked upon by the unfallen worlds, by the heavenly universe, by Satanic agencies, by the fallen race, and every mouth would be stopped. (4ST 44)


We see:
1)Even though the race be wiped out, the throne of Justice would still be eternally and forever made secure.
2)Christ *alone* could restore honor to God's government.

So while the angels can certainly learn from what happens here, it is not what happens here that secures their loyalty to God; that was accomplished by Christ alone.

However, while angels know the truth, mankind does not, so there is still a work to be done.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Tom] #86531
03/17/07 12:24 AM
03/17/07 12:24 AM
Will  Offline
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Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
The bottom line at the end of earth;s history is to let people know the Good News, it's about Jesus. He died, was resurrected, is set at His Fathers right hand, and will come again to take us home. This is Good News. I think we have covered this before Tom, and I am hoping I am not mis-understanding what you are saying, but it appears that your theology is centered around someons character, and excludes the whole picture which includes Jesus Christ.
 Quote:

Acts 4:10-12
10Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Correct me if I am wrong in what you are saying.
God Bless & Happy Sabbath,
Will

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Mountain Man] #86543
03/17/07 03:36 AM
03/17/07 03:36 AM
G
gordonb1  Offline
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Quebec
Hello Mike,

Thank you for quoting these meaningful passages from Desire of Ages. They confirm that the Law does not change, that every man will be tested by his decision to obey or to disobey. "All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men." DA 763. How important that we understand the fullness of the law, the true spirit of the law. And that we apply ourselves to understand how and where it can be confused with the laws of men.

"I believe character perfection has been available to everyone since the beginning of the great controversy."

This is probably true. Still, I ascertain a difference between ressurrected saints and those who are translated. To me, character perfection entails living up to the light God has given. By faith of course. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6. I may read in the law, thou shalt not steal. Those around me say " Aw c'mon, everybody takes stuff, who's gonna know anyway...?" I must choose between the law of God and the voices of men. If I believe God, I will obey His Word, even though I cannot see (understand) his reason. Faith cometh not by sight, but by hearing the Word of God.

I believe all saints will have character perfection; living up to all the light they had.

It seems the 144,000 will be different from those resurrected.

The 144,00 will:

1) ...Have the much greater light of the Latter Rain. Thus more light to live up to, requiring greater dependance upon God's Word - every earthly support cut off.

2) ...Witness Satan working with lying wonders, even bringing fire down from heaven in the sight of men, while they work to spread the last message of God's mercy.

3) ...Experience the approach of "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" Daniel 12:1. Although when Michael stands up, probation is closed and the saints are sealed, they have laboured in unprecedented circumstances and prepared the earth for this final storm.

4) ...Embody and teach the Day of Atonement message to confess and forsake all sin with fasting and afflicting of soul. Use the right arm of the third angel's message and be victorious health reformers in accordance with all the light given.

5) ...Sing a song which no man can learn but the hundred and forty and four thousand which were redeemed from the earth. Revelation 14:3. "It is the song of their experience - an experience such as no other company have ever had." Great Controversy 649.

Since rejecting the 1888 message, Adventism has not brought forth new light in almost a century. Worse, she has rejected and slid back from much Divine instruction. The 144,000 will not reject any light, but will restore the old light and walk in the new, following the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.


Mike, you also shared the following thought which I've not seen before. Do you have evidence for this viewpoint? It appears to be more than opinion. Please provide your source(s):

"Some resurrected saints are more mature, more seasoned, more developed than some translated saints. In other words, they are more fit for heaven. In fact, people like Paul and John are more mature, more fit than the fittest of translated saints. They would have fared more famously during the final tribulation than did the translated saints."


Thanks,

Gordon

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: gordonb1] #86544
03/17/07 05:07 AM
03/17/07 05:07 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Since rejecting the 1888 message, Adventism has not brought forth new light in almost a century. Worse, she has rejected and slid back from much Divine instruction.


Please comment further regarding this. In particular, what does "Adventism" refer to?

Thanks.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: asygo] #86639
03/19/07 10:44 PM
03/19/07 10:44 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
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Just a quickie update for now. It seems that Pr Priebe's foundation for saying that failure of the 144k will result in death for all humanity is based on the fact that God said they will not fail. Here's the logic:

144k fails -> God's promise of complete victory fails -> God's promise of salvation will also fail -> we all die.

The relationship between the failure of the 144k and our demise does not seem to be directly causal.

Last edited by asygo; 03/19/07 10:46 PM. Reason: typo

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: asygo] #86687
03/20/07 03:25 PM
03/20/07 03:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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The following description of the experience of the 144,000 during the time of trouble makes it clear that they are not more “fit” than saints like Paul and John. “…they have never made it a habit to trust in God.” “… faith, hope, and patience … have been too little exercised during their religious experience.”

 Quote:
Their confidence in God, their faith and firmness, will be severely tested. As they review the past, their hopes sink; for in their whole lives they can see little good. They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. {GC 618.3}

They feel that had they always employed all their ability in the service of Christ, going forward from strength to strength, Satan's forces would have less power to prevail against them. {GC 619.2}

God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected. {GC 621.1}

And even if they endure the test they will be plunged into deeper distress and anguish in the time of trouble, because they have never made it a habit to trust in God. The lessons of faith which they have neglected they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement. {GC 622.1}

They themselves begin to fear that the Lord has left them to fall by the hand of their enemies. It is a time of fearful agony. {GC 630.1}

As they endeavor to wait trustingly for the Lord to work they are led to exercise faith, hope, and patience, which have been too little exercised during their religious experience. {GC 630.2}

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Mountain Man] #86696
03/20/07 04:18 PM
03/20/07 04:18 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
I think he means that they are "fit" after their earthliness is consumed. So that doesn't really bug me.

What does bug me is the idea that the fit man represents humans. I believe that the fit man represents Christ and His work. Christ is the one who leads Satan to his death.

Unfortunately, I didn't get the chance to ask Dennis Priebe that. Maybe next time.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: gordonb1] #86931
03/24/07 10:11 PM
03/24/07 10:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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 Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Mike, you also shared the following thought which I've not seen before. Do you have evidence for this viewpoint? It appears to be more than opinion. Please provide your source(s):

"Some resurrected saints are more mature, more seasoned, more developed than some translated saints. In other words, they are more fit for heaven. In fact, people like Paul and John are more mature, more fit than the fittest of translated saints. They would have fared more famously during the final tribulation than did the translated saints."

Gordon, I addressed this in my last post. What do you think?

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Mountain Man] #86933
03/25/07 01:42 AM
03/25/07 01:42 AM
G
gordonb1  Offline
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Quebec
Hello Mike,

These are good passages for reflection. Which is what I will do - reflect. They do not however show a comparison with how Paul or John would have faired. It seems clear to me that the 144,000 experience is unlike any before them, save that of Christ.

Certainly they (we?) will see their unworthiness and weakness. How can you be sure some resurrected saints are more fit? Proof of the comparison and difference is what I seek. Have you read this or concluded this by distillation of sources & ideas? Food for thought.

Gordon

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Mountain Man] #86989
03/27/07 12:46 AM
03/27/07 12:46 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
If Jesus settled everything, if He disproved all of Satan’s lies and accusations, why, then, are we still here?


Are you saying that Jesus did not refute all of Satan's charges before He went back to Heaven?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: gordonb1] #87031
03/27/07 04:05 PM
03/27/07 04:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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G: It seems clear to me that the 144,000 experience is unlike any before them, save that of Christ.

MM: I agree.

G: Have you read this or concluded this by distillation of sources & ideas?

MM: It's a deduction based on a compilation of quotes. The quotes I provided above suggest that at least some of the 144,000 are not in the same spiritual giants category as were Paul and John. Giants like them fair better.

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: asygo] #87032
03/27/07 04:08 PM
03/27/07 04:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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 Originally Posted By: asygo
Are you saying that Jesus did not refute all of Satan's charges before He went back to Heaven?

Sister White seems to indicate it.

DA 761
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Mountain Man] #87095
03/28/07 02:21 AM
03/28/07 02:21 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
 Originally Posted By: asygo
Are you saying that Jesus did not refute all of Satan's charges before He went back to Heaven?

Sister White seems to indicate it.


Switching gears a bit, would you say then that Christ's human nature had nothing to do with refuting Satan's charges, since He apparently didn't get it done before He left?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: asygo] #151521
04/03/13 02:28 PM
04/03/13 02:28 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
I just listened to a sermon by Dennis Priebe. You can find the details here and download the sermon here.

What I understood him to say was that Christ's life was insufficient to convince the universe that man can obey God's law, that the 144k is the final "proof" that man can keep God's law. Without the perfection of the 144k, the whole human race would be lost, including the faithful ones of old.

Listen to the sermon and tell me what you think.


I haven't listened to his sermon, and just encountered this thread. I don't presently have a good internet connection, so it's text only. However, by the description, it looks just like the sermon I preached a few weeks ago.

As Mike so aptly queried, Why are we still here? If the great controversy were finished at the cross, why would God yet tolerate sin so much longer? It is odious to Him, abominable, and filthy. It would be like a parent seeing the soiled diaper of her child and just letting him wallow in it for another couple of miserable days. What would be the purpose in that?

The fact is, God's victory was won at the cross, but ours wasn't. Satan's claim from the beginning of the Great Controversy has been that God's law is not fair, that it cannot be kept. When Jesus came and lived a perfect life, He disproved Satan's claim. But Satan could then make a counter-claim. His claim now was that Jesus, creator of the law and fully divine, could naturally be expected to have power to keep it--but none of the representatives of fallen humanity could do so. The watching universe would have seen the sense in this argument, and doubts would still have remained in their minds. Suppose even that one or two humans, like Enoch, managed to reach a more perfect state, Satan could still claim that these were "flukes" and that it was not generally possible.

In order for God to be proven true and just with respect to His law, He needed a large number of people who could reflect His character perfectly in obedience to His law. This will happen with the 144,000. It will never have been equaled before that.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Green Cochoa] #151525
04/03/13 03:16 PM
04/03/13 03:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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GC, I agree with you that the 144,000 will demonstrate a depth of salvation that no human has ever proven before. Satan will be given freedom to tempt them to whatever degree he deems necessary to deceive them into sin. Hitherto Jesus has limited Satan, not allowing him to tempt humans too severely. But not so during the time of Jacob's trouble. Though they will suffer greatly, they will remain faithful to Jesus, they will not sin. The watching universe, including evil angels, will be forced to confess, "Jesus Christ is Lord." "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

I also agree with you Jesus did not, could not, demonstrate this truth while here in the flesh. Nevertheless, He will prove it in and through the 144,000. However, I do not believe the 144,000 will be more holy, more righteous, or more obedient than others who enter the kingdom of God. Everyone who enters the pearly gates will be holy and righteous and obedient. No one can go to heaven without it. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." The thief on the cross and the apostle John were equally holy and righteous and obedient. The only difference between the two is measured in terms of maturity. In some cases, resurrected saints will be more mature than the 144,000.

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Mountain Man] #151537
04/03/13 04:36 PM
04/03/13 04:36 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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I do not believe the 144,000 will feel more holy or righteous. They may feel less holy and righteous than others have felt. But I believe they will actually be more righteous. We have scripture for this.

Read Revelation 14:1-6 carefully and see what you think. Then read Mrs. White's comments on why the 144,000 sing a song that no one else can sing. Then realize that the 144k will also be able to enter a temple in Heaven, throughout eternity, that no one else will be eligible to enter. These are especially special to God. Why is this?

I don't necessarily espouse the idea that the 144k is an exact number. It may or may not be. It is noteworthy, however, that they are said to stand in a perfect square, and there is no exact square root of this number. There are various ways to interpret this, of course.

I agree that some in past ages will have become perfect as well. It is my personal belief that the 144k is not composed only of those who are translated without seeing death. Some will have died. It is my opinion that some who have died after 1844 and have not perfected themselves fully may be saved but not be a part of the 144k. I won't argue this point. We are told not to speculate too much about this group. But my opinion is based on the evidence as I see it that this group has become perfect in God's sight.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
"When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come." Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69.1}
[Christ's Object Lessons (1900)]


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Green Cochoa] #151543
04/04/13 02:54 AM
04/04/13 02:54 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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GC, thank you for sharing. Excellent points to ponder.

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Mountain Man] #151547
04/04/13 11:13 AM
04/04/13 11:13 AM
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Excellent thread. A good case can be made from prophecy as well that Pr. Priebe is on the right track. In addition to the description of the 144k, end-time prophecies are full of indicators that Christ is waiting for full co-operation from His Bride:
Quote:

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


This issue is so important to God and to the plan of salvation that Christ makes a rare oath, swearing by God himself that He will bring it to fulfilment:

Quote:
Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, [the mystery is the character of Christ restored, "Christ in you"] as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

In fact, Christ underlines this by taking the oath twice. In the first version of it, notice that the issue is again character perfection in verse 10:

Quote:
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished....
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


But the greatest proof to me besides Revelation 7 and 14 that the perfection of the 144,000 is central to the plan of salvation is Daniel 9 which shows that the Lord was ready to bring in everlasting righteousness, atone for and put an end to sin and purify his people at the end of the 70 weeks. Daniel 9 affirms that the plan of salvation could have been completed within 3.5 years of the crucifixion of Christ if spiritual Isreal, that is the twelve spiritual tribes, had received Him. James mournfully addresses his letter to "the twelve tribes scattered abroad". In other words in the time of the apostles, even in a period of relative church purity, the church and her twelve spiritual tribes was not gathered. The good news is that the gathering of the 12 tribes is assured on oath by Christ Himself, not because of our righteousness. The oath is sworn or made on the righteousness of God.

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Charity] #152301
05/04/13 03:22 AM
05/04/13 03:22 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
The oath is sworn or made on the righteousness of God.

But my issue is with the idea that salvation is dependent on the righteousness of man. True, it is the 144k, who are a fairly righteous lot, but men nonetheless.

Does the sanctuary system teach that the sinner has a part in the atonement after the High Priest has entered the Most Holy Place? As far as I can tell, the sinner's role ends in the Outer Court. And even then, he is a recipient of the atonement, not a foundational part of the plan.

It was in order that the heavenly universe might see the conditions of the covenant of redemption that Christ bore the penalty in behalf of the human race. The throne of Justice must be eternally and forever made secure, even tho the race be wiped out, and another creation populate the earth. By the sacrifice Christ was about to make, all doubts would be forever settled, and the human race would be saved if they would return to their allegiance. Christ alone could restore honor to God's government. The cross of Calvary would be looked upon by the unfallen worlds, by the heavenly universe, by Satanic agencies, by the fallen race, and every mouth would be stopped. {ST, July 12, 1899 par. 2}

Calvary sealed the deal. Whether or not any of us accept the deal will not change the fact that God already won the war. It's just a matter of determining whose side each individual wants to join.

Last edited by asygo; 05/04/13 06:15 AM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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