The following description of true conversion disproves the idea advocated by certain members on MSDAOL that people are converted and born again with their their sinful habits unrevealed, unconfessed, and uncrucified.

AA 445-447
At the time of their conversion and baptism the Colossian believers pledged themselves to put away beliefs and practices that had hitherto been a part of their lives, and to be true to their allegiance to Christ. In his letter, Paul reminded them of this, and entreated them not to forget that in order to keep their pledge they must put forth constant effort against the evils that would seek for mastery over them. "If ye then be risen with Christ," he said, "seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." {AA 475.3}

"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17. Through the power of Christ, men and women have broken the chains of sinful habit. They have renounced selfishness. The profane have become reverent, the drunken sober, the profligate pure. Souls that have borne the likeness of Satan have become transformed into the image of God. This change is in itself the miracle of miracles. A change wrought by the Word, it is one of the deepest mysteries of the Word. We cannot understand it; we can only believe, as declared by the Scriptures, it is "Christ in you, the hope of glory." {AA 476.1}

When the Spirit of God controls mind and heart, the converted soul breaks forth into a new song; for he realizes that in his experience the promise of God has been fulfilled, that his transgression has been forgiven, his sin covered. He has exercised repentance toward God for the violation of the divine law, and faith toward Christ, who died for man's justification. "Being justified by faith," he has "peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1. {AA 476.2}

But because this experience is his, the Christian is not therefore to fold his hands, content with that which has been accomplished for him. He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. {AA 476.3}

I think you're not phrasing the area of dispute well. You believe that no non-SDA's were converted. So you are converted, but Luther, and Wycliffe, and Jerome weren't, to name just a few. I think a definition of conversion that leads to this conclusion is suspect.

I'm glad you're persistant MM on this topic. I recently read Colin Standish's booklet, Perfection. He has a chapter in it on sanctification which is close to your view. He quoted the last sentence of the following passage (also from AA) but the earlier part of the paragraph gives more of the context. Overall, Standish's book is very good.



I agree that God does not see our imperfections and that if we abide in Christ, we are perfect in every stage of growth. I agree that the one who abides in Christ can't sin intentionally.

Scriptural sanctification is abiding in Christ. As a child doesn't fully reproduce the works and character of the parent, we are not a full reflection of Christ. How can we fully reflect God when we see in a glass darkly? But we will share all of the same traits of character - the fruits of the Spirit.

Few theologians or laymen have a correct balance regarding sanctification in my view. It is not an easy subject to describe accurately. Ellen White is the best we have outside of scripture.

Mark, a couple of questions, followed by a comment.

a)Do you agree with MM that he, and you(?), are converted, but Martin Luther was not?
b)What do you mean by saying that God does not see our imperfections? This sounds like some sort of voluntary divine self-induced blindness. If He can't see our imperfections, how can He help us overcome them? I assume you don't mean your statement to be taken literally(?). That what you mean is something along the lines that God chooses not to take them into account(?)
c)The following statement doesn't really say anything helpful, does it: "I agree that the one who abides in Christ can't sin intentionally." If it does, I don't see what it is. The reason I say this is because to abide in Christ, means by definition, to choose Christ over sin, doesn't it? So isn't this simply saying that as long as one chooses not to sin intentionally, one will not sin intentionally?

I think an issue that would be helpful to identify is what the actual problem is. I believe Ellen White does an excellent job of this here:



Love is the fulfilling of the law. Obedience to the Ten Commandments is summed up by the one word "love." There is the love of God, and the love of one's neighbor.

Now since love cannot be commanded, and since love is the fulfilling of the law, it follows that commandment keeping can no more be commanded than love can. Only by love is love awakened. Similarly, only by love is obedience awakened.

It is as we behold the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross, that love within us is kindled, and, above all, an appreciation of *His* love awakens within us. This heartfelt appreciation and gratitude has motivating power, such as was manifested in the life of Paul, who stated that he would even be anathema (lost, cursed), if that would mean the salvation of those who were persecuting him. This is the spirit of Christ, and the work of the Spirit of Christ.

Yes Tom, we certainly need to have a fresh revelation of the life and death of Christ. God help us and grant us grace to think on Him.

The idea that God views us as though we had never sinned was one of the 1888 elements - based, I suppose, on texts like the one that says our life is hid with Christ.

I don't know about MM, but my own view is that Luther was converted as a young man and stayed true to his calling. One of the less glorious chapters of his life is his encounter with Zwingle on the doctrine of transubstitution. But what a great soldier of Christ. If I could be one tenth as effective, I'd be grateful and of course anyone who is that effective will give the credit to God.

" So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome ..."

Mark, I understand this phrase to mean we must labor daily to resist owning or acting out the unholy desires of our flesh. I do not take it to mean we will continue to sin and repent until Jesus returns. What is your take on it?

Regarding Luther's conversion: I believe he was in the process of converting from darkness to light, from not obeying everything Jesus commanded to obeying everything He commanded. But he died before he completed converting. See Mat 28:19, 20. Do you see what I mean?

It sounds like we're on the same page here, Mark. I have a small quibble:



The small quibble is I would say that God *treats* us as though we had never sinned. He views us as we are, but treats us graciously, which is an accordance to His gracious character.

Thoughts?

I agree with this.

Regarding conversion, here's a statement from the Spirit of Prophecy, speaking of the work of Wesley:



I don't expect you to admit to having erred, but this demonstrates that "converted" does not require being a Seventh-day Adventist.

You're right, Tom, "converted" can mean living up to the light they have received. But I am referring to "converted" in the ultimate, completed sense, in the Matthew 28:19, 20 sense. Do you see a difference?

Hmm, I dont think there nessessarily is a difference to be viewed. As was concluded in another thread, some of the things on the SDA sin list never where sins before until Ellen told us they where... So Luther may have observed all things which Jesus commanded without making it to the SDA list...