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Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: asygo] #89474
06/03/07 01:04 PM
06/03/07 01:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
A: Perhaps you are right. If so, I believe it is an issue. But rather than being an individual issue with the pastor, it is an institutional issue with the school and/or conference.

MM: By my saying "It is a non-issue" I did not mean to imply I believe it is a non-issue. Just thought I'd clarify that in case it wasn't clear. Also, I agree with you, it is a corporate issue if it is not being taught in our schools or churches.

A: She said she sent the pastor something, and he got upset about it. Why would he get upset about it?

MM: If Tammy sent me something about anything I would be hesitant to accept it, too. She strikes me as harsh and insensitive, and I have hard time appreciating such people or learning from them. Knowing about dress reform and being convicted about it are two separate issues. It totally depends on how one learns about it.

I learned about it in a loving environment and was sold on it immediately. I have friends, though, who were accused of being liberal and sinful because they did not accept the wearing of long sleeves as a necessary part of dress reform. Presentation has a lot to do with reception and conviction.

Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: asygo] #89475
06/03/07 01:12 PM
06/03/07 01:12 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, you have a tendency of not addressing certain aspects of posts without explaining why. Rather than ignoring them, please state why you are unwilling to tackle them. Thank you. I am reposting the parts of my post you did not address. I would appreciate a candid and honest answer.

 Quote:
A: Yes, I believe the pants were under skirts of some kind.

MM: Then you haven't answered my original question. Why is it that wearing pants was once considered immodest for women (both in the church and in the world), but nowadays neither the church nor the world perceives it as immodest?

1. Arnold, do you think it is immodest for women to wear modest pants?

2. Also, do you think it is immodest for men and women to wear knee length shorts and tee shirts and hang out at the lake or pool together?


I realize that by answering these things you run the risk of losing Tammy's approval and acceptance, and becoming a victim of her harsh and insensitive condemnation. However, for the sake of truth, please be brave and share with us your true feelings about it. Thank you.

Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: Mountain Man] #89479
06/03/07 04:14 PM
06/03/07 04:14 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Arnold, you have a tendency of not addressing certain aspects of posts without explaining why. Rather than ignoring them, please state why you are unwilling to tackle them. Thank you.


LOL I know what you're talking about.

I haven't had quality time on the internet for a long time. What I manage to write are just quickies, requiring little thought/research. The parts I don't address require thought/research, so I don't get to it. Or sometimes, there are bigger fish to fry.

But don't worry that I ignore some stuff to gain/retain man's approval. I don't mind getting on people's wrong side if it means being on God's side.

I'll get back to the pants. I'll tell you now that I have no inherent problem with modest pants, but I am partial to dresses down to the ankle.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: asygo] #89481
06/03/07 04:34 PM
06/03/07 04:34 PM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
 Originally Posted By: asygo
I don't mind getting on people's wrong side if it means being on God's side.


:)If we all do that, we'll all end up, sooner or later, on the right side!


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: asygo] #89490
06/04/07 07:34 AM
06/04/07 07:34 AM
C
crater  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 989
United States
 Originally Posted By: asygo
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Arnold, you have a tendency of not addressing certain aspects of posts without explaining why. Rather than ignoring them, please state why you are unwilling to tackle them. Thank you.


LOL I know what you're talking about.

I haven't had quality time on the internet for a long time. What I manage to write are just quickies, requiring little thought/research. The parts I don't address require thought/research, so I don't get to it. Or sometimes, there are bigger fish to fry.

But don't worry that I ignore some stuff to gain/retain man's approval. I don't mind getting on people's wrong side if it means being on God's side.

I'll get back to the pants. I'll tell you now that I have no inherent problem with modest pants, but I am partial to dresses down to the ankle.


Asygo, I know what you are talking about too, on the time issue of being able to address everything that comes up.

I read Linda Sutton's study a the beginning of this thread. I thought it was nicely done, with out seeking to push it as a salvation issue.

A few observations: I belong to a national organization that meets at the local level. In our community group we have a monthly meeting and a yearly district and state meeting. I believe that all the women at our local meeting wear pants. At the district meetings nearly all wear pants there may be one or two in a dress. Now I am one of the younger ones with some in there 70's and 80's. Pants seem to be the clothing of choice. All modestly arrayed. (I tend to note things like that, don't know why).

For myself I like pants in the winter (keeps me warm) and have a couple of dress ones for occasions when I attend church. For hot weather, (summer) I like dresses (preferably loose) (to keep cool) long (so I don't have to wear hose). That works for me and my preference.

I know some lovely SDA Christian women that follow "dress reform" that is fine. I just ask that they respect my way of dressing as well.

I also know some other SDA women who follow "dress reform" who do not appear to have the same type of loveliness as the fore mentioned. I think of one women in particular that I have seen another side of. It is ironic in that a man at a more LGSDA church got up in a meeting and brought up this woman as being an example of what a Christian woman should be. But the man was looking on the outward appearance. Yet a close family member had experienced lying and abusive behavior from this same woman.

It is interesting how people are judged on appearance. I recall a few millionaires that I have known. One couple had been to the gym and were still wearing their sweats when the decided to buy a new car, the other came in from his ranch in his old farm truck. Both had come to buy a new mercedes, however the salesmen were slow to assist them and came close to losing a sale. On the other hand someone else can be all decked out but not a cent in the bank and behind on the rent.

Man judges on outward appearance. I'm glad that God judges the heart.

Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: crater] #89501
06/04/07 03:30 PM
06/04/07 03:30 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: crater
Man judges on outward appearance. I'm glad that God judges the heart.


Amen, my pants-wearing sister!

However, let's not forget the other side of the coin:
 Quote:
The external appearance is an index to the heart. When hearts are affected by the truth, there will be a death to the world; and those who are dead to the world will not be moved by the laugh, the jeer, and the scorn of unbelievers. They will feel an anxious desire to be like their Master, separate from the world. They will not imitate its fashions or customs. The noble object will be ever before them, to glorify God, and gain the immortal inheritance, and in comparison with this everything of an earthly nature will sink into insignificance. {RH, September 9, 1884 par. 7}

I saw that the outside appearance is an index to the heart. When the exterior is hung with ribbons, collars, and needless things, it plainly shows that the love for all this is in the heart; unless such persons are cleansed from their corruption, they can never see God, for only the pure in heart will see Him. {1T 135.2}


More importantly, let's not forget the solution:
 Quote:
There are many who try to correct the life of others by attacking what they consider are wrong habits. They go to those whom they think are in error, and point out their defects. They say, "You don't dress as you should." They try to pick off the ornaments, or whatever seems offensive, but they do not seek to fasten the mind to the truth. Those who seek to correct others should present the attractions of Jesus. They should talk of His love and compassion, present His example and sacrifice, reveal His Spirit, and they need not touch the subject of dress at all. There is no need to make the dress question the main point of your religion. There is something richer to speak of. Talk of Christ, and when the heart is converted, everything that is out of harmony with the Word of God will drop off. It is only labor in vain to pick leaves off a living tree. The leaves will reappear. The ax must be laid at the root of the tree, and then the leaves will fall off, never to return. {Ev 272.1}


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: Tammy Roesch] #89502
06/04/07 03:32 PM
06/04/07 03:32 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tammy Roesch
 Originally Posted By: asygo
I don't mind getting on people's wrong side if it means being on God's side.


:)If we all do that, we'll all end up, sooner or later, on the right side!


Yes. We have one Leader, one Master. Let's not get confused who we should be following.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: asygo] #89506
06/04/07 10:06 PM
06/04/07 10:06 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
I like the inspired solution that Arnold quoted from Ev 272.1 as it places the focus where it always ought to be, which is on the attractions of Christ. His love should be seen in us in what we say.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: vastergotland] #89518
06/05/07 06:22 AM
06/05/07 06:22 AM
C
crater  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 989
United States
 Originally Posted By: västergötland
 Originally Posted By: crater
 Originally Posted By: västergötland
 Originally Posted By: Tammy Roesch
Mountain Man, one of the biggest reasons the church is in the condition it is, is because it employs so many Pastors that are soft on sin, like you.

Hmm, lets see here, I read something like this before in my overview study of christian thought. I think this idea might first have been raised by a group known as Donatists. Nothing new under the sun is there?
IMO You are stretch.............ing \:\)
Only a little. ;\)


Well it added some interest. \:D

I had to look up Donatists, so I learned something new. \:\)

Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: Mountain Man] #89522
06/05/07 08:53 AM
06/05/07 08:53 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
A:

A: She said she sent the pastor something, and he got upset about it. Why would he get upset about it?

MM: If Tammy sent me something about anything I would be hesitant to accept it, too. She strikes me as harsh and insensitive, and I have hard time appreciating such people or learning from them. Knowing about dress reform and being convicted about it are two separate issues. It totally depends on how one learns about it.

I learned about it in a loving environment and was sold on it immediately. I have friends, though, who were accused of being liberal and sinful because they did not accept the wearing of long sleeves as a necessary part of dress reform. Presentation has a lot to do with reception and conviction.


The way something is "given" is one factor, the way something is "received" is quite another. Jesus gave everything He said, in love, and unfortunately, the ministers of His day, still set about to kill Him.

This is a copy of the complete email sent to the Pastor regarding the booklet, sent when we were on "good terms"

 Quote:
Oh! I think I over heard you saying today, that in the next few sermons, you would be speaking about practical things, diet & dress, etc. So, I wanted to email you this little booklet we stumbled on, years ago...called "The Ribbon of Blue" - it will fit right in with the Sanctuary series you are doing - remember, the priests wore a ribbon of blue at the bottom of their coats.... Please read it, it will take a little time, but it is a subject that is JUST AS IMPORTANT AS DIET REFORM, and desperately needs taught in our church. I'm anxious to hear your thoughts on it...please share it with your wife, it is something every woman in the church should read....I'll try to make copies one of these days to give the women.

Have a good night!


And this morning I received an email from a person who I sent "The Ribbon of Blue" to last week. I don't know this person, only ever read one post from her. This was her response back from receiving the litle booklet.

 Quote:
Greetings,

Thank you for the booklet. It's arrival is actually quite timely. I and 2 other young ladies plan to present something in the afternoon on dress and other 'female' related topics and there are more quotes there than I had found.

I had never heard of your ministry, it's such a blessing that you took the time to email me. it is great to know that we are not alone in this narrow way and it will be wonderful to meet in heaven. So many new friends to meet!

May God bless your ministry. As soon as I am done with this email I plan to look at your website.


I believe that just as much depends on the condition of the heart of the person who receives the material given, as does the material itself. Remember the parable that Jesus told, called, "The Sower Went Forth to Sow" in Christ Object Lessons? The seed was all the same, but what determined the outcome of the growth of the plant was the "soil" or the "heart condition" of the ground the seed fell on.

It is interesting to me, that so many times, it is the ministers and leaders who rise up against the truth, the lay people are much more open. I guess it shouldn't be surprising though, as that is the way it has ALWAYS been in history...


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

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