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Re: Does Blood Defile, Does Blood Cleanse, or Does Blood Do Both? [Re: Rosangela] #96323
03/06/08 01:40 AM
03/06/08 01:40 AM
T
tall73  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 114
MO
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
 Quote:
note I did NOT say the passover was fulfilled then. I said Pentecost, dedciation, daily, red heifer, and according to the text the entrance of the day of atonement.

Yes, but notice what you are contending:
Passover – fulfilled in the order and timing of the type
Wavesheaf – fulfilled in the order and timing of the type
Pentecost – fulfilled in the order and timing of the type
Atonement – fulfilled out of the order and timing of the type



Exactly right. Why? Because that is what the text says. I am not hung up on order, but what the text says. Notice some other surprises that the text tells us:

Change of priesthood

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.



A once for all sacrifice:

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


And in the same way that Jesus made a once for all sacrifice, He also made a once for all entry:


Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy places [ta hagia], having obtained eternal redemption for us.


The verses we have been looking at elaborate more on this one entry:


Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;


It is a once for all entry into the true holy places, heaven itself, which is God's presence. So since the text says it, I believe it, whether it is an alteration or not, just as the priesthood and the sacrifice were alterations, but spelled out in the text.

 Quote:

As I asked you before, do you believe that the fulfillment of Pentecost lasted one day, or that it began at a specific day? I believe in a Pentecostal era. Supernatural miracles and manifestations of the Spirit lasted several decades – in fact, seven decades if we consider the death of the apostle John as the end of this period. So, the duration of the antitypes is not restricted to a single day – either in the Spring feasts or in the Fall feasts.



A. I would see the gift of pentecost going on as Peter says to all who are afar off.

B. I would have no problem with a day of atonement type beginning at the ascension, as the text indicates, and reaching all the way to the final day of judgment. It could involve both the work IN the temple, and the part that happened when the priest came out--the scape goat portion. But then let's be honest. If you are looking at long periods. What I am not comfortable with is ignoring what the text says to fit a pattern that I think should be there.



By the way, when do you think the feast of Tabernacles was/will be fulfilled?

I don't know. It is not spelled out in the text. It may be that it is fulfilled at the end, at Jesus coming. The reason I suspect the day of atonement type was a bit different is that its central element--the presentation of blood in God's presence--was part of the historical series of events surrounding the crucifixion and ascension. Jesus entered into God's presence once for all, just as He made the sacrifice once for all.



 Quote:

As I see it, Paul’s comparison/contrast with the Day of Atonement in v. 24 is not in the ACT OF ENTERING, but in THE PLACE ACCESSED, that is, the presence of God. Paul says Christ did not enter a sanctuary made by humans, but entered into the direct presence of God. Paul’s comparison/contrast with the Day of Atonement in vv. 25, 26 is, again, not in the ACT OF ENTERING, but in the OFFERING PRESENTED. While offerings had to be presented every year by earthly high priests, Christ offered Himself once for all and His blood is efficacious for ever.


So let me understand--you do or don't think He entered? How can it not focus on the entry when it plainly says He did enter? Why mention the entry into God's presence in day of atonement language if that is not what is meant? I have seen at least three Adventist scholarly approaches to this question. They all agree that v. 25 is a day of atonement reference. They all differ on how they reason that Jesus did not begin fulfilling the day of atonement, but they all know He didn't. That sounds like a solution in search of a problem. They cannot admit Jesus did what the text says or their system is undone.

It seems an inescapable conclusion that Jesus not only entered but went into God's presence presenting the sacrifice. That is the fulfillment of that part of the type. He is described as entering in day of atonement language.



 Quote:

There are many aspects involved here. The order of the feasts is just one of them. I see a punctiliar Day-of-Atonement antitype at Christ’s ascension as impossible, since the sins of God’s children in the Christian era hadn’t yet been committed and, therefore, could not have been blotted out.


A. I already noted it would not have to be punctiliar necessarily. I think it indicates that Jesus put away sin already though.

B. You are again confusing corporate provision with when that provision is utilized. The two are not the same. Jesus made corporate provision by "putting away sin", "making purification for sin." How can you deny this is what the text says?

 Quote:

Besides, no scapegoat was banished to the wilderness in AD 31 (unless you believe the scapegoat is Christ, which I think is a view which presents more problems than advantages); neither do I see as a solution the placing of a lapse of 2000 years between the fulfillment of the first part of the type and the fulfillment of the scapegoat.


A. I did not say the scapegoat was fulfilled yet. The text does not give commentary on that part of the rite. Therefore I don't comment on it either. But where the text says something I can't just ignore it.

B. Why would it be a problem for a 2000 year gap or a 2000 year fulfillment? You already have a 150 year day of atonement as it is.

C. It actually makes sense if we follow the type (which I am not tied to given it has been altered more than once) to have the first part happen IN the sanctuary, and the second when the High Priest comes out. Whether that means a punctiliar service and then a gap, or whether that means the whole time from then to the end and then the scapegoat when He comes out isn't really the issue to me. The issue is that the text says when He entered in to begin it.

Re: Does Blood Defile, Does Blood Cleanse, or Does Blood Do Both? [Re: tall73] #96326
03/06/08 02:08 AM
03/06/08 02:08 AM
T
tall73  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 114
MO

 Quote:

She says in a symbolic vision, as you quoted, that Jesus passed from one compartment to the other in 1844.



She also speaks of open and shut doors.



I saw that Jesus had shut the door of the holy place, and no man can open it; and that He had opened the door into the most holy, and no man can shut it (Rev. 3:7,8) and that since Jesus has opened the door into the most holy place, which contains the ark, the commandments have been shining out to God's people, and they are being tested on the Sabbath question. {EW 42.2} I saw that the present test on the Sabbath could not come until the mediation of Jesus in the holy place was finished and He had passed within the second veil;


I already quoted Edson on the question, and other Adventists also held to this literal entry into the MHP in 1844. Notice James White's view of it:


The professed church, who rejected the truth, was also rejected, and smitten with blindness, and now, "with their flocks and with their herds" they go "to seek the Lord" as still an advocate for sinners; but, says the prophet, [Hosea v,6,7,] "they shall not find him; he hath withdrawn Himself from them. They have dealt treacherously against the Lord; for they have begotten strange children."
The reason why they do not find the Lord is simply this, they seek him where he is not; "he hath withdrawn himself" to the Most Holy Place.


He indicates that the prayers of the "professed" church cannot find Jesus because they are looking in the wrong compartment! (He appears to not realize that most thought He was ALREADY in the Most Holy from His ascension, so if anything they would have been wrong until 1844 if the Adventists were right).

 Quote:


I’m not sure what you mean, but of course repentance is an attitude of the human heart, and only repentance can be a type of repentance.


What I mean is that you pick and choose when you want to type to apply in order. In the type the affliction went on DURING the day of atonement. But you now seem to admit that all have affliction of repentance during their lifetime.


 Quote:

 Quote:
The question I am asking is when does Hebrews indicate Jesus made purification for sins? At His ascension.

At His ascension? I apply these words of Paul to the cross.


You do? Let's look at the verse again that I was quoting, though there are several that have the same theme:


Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


When did Jesus sit down? After the cross or after going into God's presence to present His sacrifice?



 Quote:

 Quote:
When does it Describe Him in Day of Atonement language entering into His Father's presence? At His ascension.

The essence of the Day of Atonement was not just entering into God's presence. It was entering God's presence in order to cleanse the sanctuary. Evidently, if Christ had left the presence of God to come to earth, He would come back to the presence of God at His ascension, sanctuary or no sanctuary. The question is, Did Christ enter into the presence of God at His ascension in order to cleanse the sanctuary?


And the answer is yes. Verse 23 directly references the cleansing of the sanctuary and verse 24-25 are describing that cleansing in day of atonement language. Note again the linguistic flow, all tying together, all using past tense references:



Verse 23 is in fact ambiguous as some of our scholars have pointed out.


Heb 9:23 ᾿Ανάγκη οὖν τὰ μὲν υποδείγματα των εν τοις ουρανοις τούτοις καθαρίζεσθαι, αυτὰ δὲ τὰ επουράνια κρείττοσιν θυσίαις παρὰ ταύτας.

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.


καθαριζω is in the infinitive. The point of the argument doesn’t really require timing anyway. It is arguing that the type requires fulfillment—things must be cleansed with blood. In the OT type the earthly was cleansed with blood. Therefore the heavenly things must be cleansed.

However, the next verse does not indicate a future action and explains the cleansing. It is tied logically to verse 23.


Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Heb 9:24 οὐ γὰρ εἰς χειροποίητα ἅγια εἰσῆλθεν ὁ Χριστός, ἀντίτυπα τῶν ἀληθινῶν, ἀλλ᾿ εἰς αὐτὸν τὸν οὐρανόν, νῦν ἐμφανισθῆναι τῷ προσώπῳ τοῦ Θεοῦ ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν·


Verse 24 continues the argument of the preceding section, indicated by γαρ. He is now appears to be showing the fulfillment of the necessary cleansing. Jesus went into the true tabernacle, heaven itself, and appeared in God’s presence. This is parallel to the entrance of the high priest into God’s presence once per year. The term for "entered" in this case is again past tense, εἰσῆλθεν. This then orients the timing of the entering with blood, and associated activities.

Verses 26 again use past tense references.


Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


He has appeared to put away sin. The term is in the perfect tense, which indicates past action with continuing results. So this whole section appears to be a reference to past events, in day of atonement language.


So Hebrews 9 begins with a reference to the earthly day of atonement, which is no accident. It sets up the description of how Jesus' ministry is better (the theme of Hebrews). Then in verse 23-26 it describes how Jesus cleansed the heavenly things, entering in and presenting the blood in God's presence. He put away sin. He made purification for sins.


Last edited by tall73; 03/06/08 02:09 AM.
Re: Does Blood Defile, Does Blood Cleanse, or Does Blood Do Both? [Re: tall73] #96327
03/06/08 02:50 AM
03/06/08 02:50 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Is it accomplishing its purpose?


It will. It's been delayed (it shouldn't have taken nearly so long), but eventually the messages which God has been sending to prepare the way for Christ to come will be accepted.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does Blood Defile, Does Blood Cleanse, or Does Blood Do Both? [Re: tall73] #96328
03/06/08 02:53 AM
03/06/08 02:53 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
The little horn was the cause of the defilement. The cleansing would be dealing with that defilement. The 2300 days was to bring an end to its work. The Adventist view simply does not qualify. Instead of showing how the little horn power came to an end and the defilement it caused was cleansed it reads in the day of atonement which dealt not with external defilement of the sanctuary but cleansing from the sins of all of God's people.


It sounds like you see no connection with the cleansing of the sanctuary in Daniel 8:14 to Leviticus. Is that correct? That is, you don't see Daniel 8:14 as having anything to do with the Day of Atonement?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does Blood Defile, Does Blood Cleanse, or Does Blood Do Both? [Re: Tom] #96332
03/06/08 04:55 AM
03/06/08 04:55 AM
T
tall73  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 114
MO
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
The little horn was the cause of the defilement. The cleansing would be dealing with that defilement. The 2300 days was to bring an end to its work. The Adventist view simply does not qualify. Instead of showing how the little horn power came to an end and the defilement it caused was cleansed it reads in the day of atonement which dealt not with external defilement of the sanctuary but cleansing from the sins of all of God's people.


It sounds like you see no connection with the cleansing of the sanctuary in Daniel 8:14 to Leviticus. Is that correct? That is, you don't see Daniel 8:14 as having anything to do with the Day of Atonement?



At this point I don't see much evidence for it, no. The cleansing was from the defiling of the little horn.

Our own scholars have recognized that the word for cleansed there in the KJV is not the same as in Leviticus. Some say that it is "within the verbal range." But basically the word means to be restored. The only thing really supporting a cleansed reading is the LXX, and they debate over whether that was influenced by the Antiochus position, which was believed by many to be a fulfillment.

Now having said that, the strong sanctuary themes, the animals, it is not out of the realm of possibility it is referring to the day of atonement. That is why I mentioned two possible sources. I just think the reference is primarily to the removal of the defilement of the little horn. There is little in the broader context to indicate that it is the day of atonement over a reference to restoration from outside defilement, such as we saw in Hezekiah's experience.


Last edited by tall73; 03/06/08 04:56 AM.
Re: Does Blood Defile, Does Blood Cleanse, or Does Blood Do Both? [Re: tall73] #96336
03/06/08 12:19 PM
03/06/08 12:19 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/AssetOrLiability.html
 Quote:
I first encountered problems with the traditional interpretation of Daniel
8:14, professionally, in the spring of 1955 during the process of editing
comment on the Book of Daniel for volume 4 of the SDA Bible Commentary. As
a work intended to meet the most exacting scholarly standards, we intended
our comment to reflect the meaning obviously intended by the Bible writers.
As an Adventist commentary it must also reflect, as accurately as possible,
what Adventists believe and teach. But in Daniel 8 and 9 we found it
hopelessly impossible to comply with both of these requirements.35
In 1958 the Review and Herald Publishing Association needed new printing
plates for the classic book Bible Readings, and it was decided to revise it
where necessary to agree with the Commentary. Coming again to the Book of
Daniel I determined to try once more to find a way to be absolutely faithful
to both Daniel and the traditional Adventist interpretation of 8:14, but
again found it impossible. I then formulated six questions regarding the
Hebrew text of the passage and its context, which I submitted to every
college teacher versed in Hebrew and every head of the religion department
in all of our North American colleges---all personal friends of mine.
Without exception they replied that there is no linguistic or contextual
basis for the traditional Adventist interpretation of Daniel 8:14.36
When the results of this questionnaire were called to the attention of the
General Conference president, he and the Officers appointed the super-secret
Committee on Problems in the Book of Daniel, of which I was a member.
Meeting intermittently for five years (1961-1966), we considered 48 papers
relative to Daniel 8 and 9, and in the spring of 1966 adjourned sine die,
unable to reach a consensus.37
The Commentary experience with Daniel already mentioned led me into an
unhurried, in-depth, spare-time, comprehensive study of Daniel 7 to 12
that continued without interruption for seventeen years (1955-1972), in
quest of a conclusive solution to the sanctuary problem. My objective was to
be fully prepared with definitive, objective, biblical information the next
time the question should arise during the course of my ministry for the
church.
Among other things I memorized, in Hebrew, all relevant portions of Daniel 8
to 12 for instant recall and comparison (60 verses), conducted exhaustive
word studies38 of more than 150 relevant Hebrew words Daniel uses,
throughout the Old Testament, studied the Hebrew grammar and syntax in
detail, made a minute analysis of contextual data,39 compared ancient Greek
and Latin translations of Daniel,40 investigated relevant apocryphal and New
Testament passages,41 traced Jewish and Christian interpretation of Daniel
from ancient to modern times,42 and made an exhaustive study of the
formation, development, and subsequent Adventist experience with the
traditional sanctuary doctrine.43 Eventually I incorporated the results of
this investigation into an 1100 page manuscript which I later reduced to 725
pages but decided not release for publication until an appropriate time.
The above considerations conclusively demonstrate that our traditional
interpretation of Daniel 8:14, the sanctuary, and the investigative judgment
as set forth in Article 23 of Fundamental Beliefs does not accurately
reflect the teaching of Scripture with respect to the ministry of Christ on
our behalf since His return to heaven.44 Accordingly, it is appropriate (1)
to note wherein Article 23 is thus defective,45 (2) to revise the article so
as to reflect Bible teaching on this aspect of His ministry accurately, and
(3) to suggest a process designed to protect the church from this and
similar traumatic experiences in the future.46
Some of the concepts associated with the investigative judgment are, indeed,
biblical, but the Bible itself nowhere associates them with an investigative
judgment, for which there is no sola Scriptura basis whatever.47
Upon ascending to heaven Jesus assured His disciples "I am with you always,
to the end of the age" (Matthew 18:20). The Book of Hebrews is our primary
source of information about His ministry in heaven on their (and our) behalf
since that time, I suggest that the following composite summary of His
ministry as presented in Hebrews provides an appropriate basis for a revised
article 23 of Fundamental Beliefs, should such a statement eventually be
desired. The author of Hebrews presents Christ's ministry in heaven, on our
behalf, by analogy with the role of the high priest in the ancient sanctuary
ritual:
On the cross Jesus offered Himself as a single sacrifice for all time that
atoned for the sins of those who draw near to God through Him.48 That one
sacrifice qualified Him to serve as our great High Priest in heaven,
perpetually.49 Having made that sacrifice, Christ entered the Most Holy
Place--"heaven itself"--to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.50 He
invites us to come boldly to Him, by faith, to find mercy and grace to help
us in our time of need.51 He will soon appear, a second time, "to bring
salvation to those who are waiting for him."52
Maybe this should have had its own thread, but here it gets the atention of those qualified to evaluate it sooner.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Does Blood Defile, Does Blood Cleanse, or Does Blood Do Both? [Re: Tom] #96342
03/06/08 01:44 PM
03/06/08 01:44 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
My main point was stated in the next statement, which you seem to agree with. God knows the end from the beginning, and does set that up as a test. But there is no way from our viewpoint to look back on 1844 and see evidence of God knowing the end from the beginning.


The purpose of prophecy is not to establish that God knows the end from the beginning, but that He will do what He says He will do. We have all sorts of prophecies which we have seen fulfilled, so we have every reason to believe that God is trustworthy. Since we know God is trustworthy, based on what we've seen in many other prophecies, which *can* be verified, we can trust that in the 2300 day prophecy that He would do what He said He would here as well.

Your reasoning seems to be that God can not prophecy about anything that He is doing in heaven, because we have know way of verifying that prophecy. But again, His purpose in the prophecy could simply be to tell us what He is going to do. It doesn't have to be verifiable, as, if this were a necessary condition, God could never prophecy about anything He is doing in heaven.

Regarding your point about the 2300 day prophecy need not be interpreted as SDA's interpret it, but historicism could still be the correct framework for prophecy, I agree with this point. Usually people who make the arguments you are making in regards to Hebrews are futurists, but I have no reason to believe that logically this need be the case. So I agree with you that, given your understanding of Hebrews, your suggested alternative interpretation regarding the little horn is a viable possibility.
I found a quote on this which puts it this way:

In Jeremiah 18:7-10 the prophet summarizes the nature and purpose of
predictive prophecy as follows:

At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a
kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that
nation concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil I will change my
mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another
moment I may declare concerning a nation or kingdom that I will build and
plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I
will change my mind about the good that I intended to do to it.

Accordingly, predictive prophecy is always conditional on the response of
the people to whom it is addressed. Its function is not to demonstrate
divine foreknowledge nor does it necessarily predetermine the course of
events, for if it did it would thereby deprive people of the power of
choice. Its intended purpose is to enable them to make wise choices in the
present by indicating the ultimate result of either a right or a wrong
choice. For this reason Bible prophecy, even apocalyptic prophecy, is always
conditional, and its time element is always flexible, in order to provide
for the free exercise of human choice.69 It is a preview of what can be, not
what necessarily will be.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Does Blood Defile, Does Blood Cleanse, or Does Blood Do Both? [Re: tall73] #96384
03/06/08 10:25 PM
03/06/08 10:25 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
She also speaks of open and shut doors.

Sometimes she mentions doors, sometimes she mentions veils, sometimes she mentions that Christ passed from one compartment to the other. It’s much more probable that these references are symbolic, both in her writings and in the Bible. When Paul mentions that our hope enters into that which is within the veil, does he refer to a literal veil in heaven, or does he just mean the presence of God? So, if Ellen White’s visions are symbolic, her reference is to a two-phase ministry of Christ.

 Quote:
What I mean is that you pick and choose when you want to type to apply in order. In the type the affliction went on DURING the day of atonement. But you now seem to admit that all have affliction of repentance during their lifetime.

Tall, this argument is completely unreasonable. Of course this was a special humiliation of soul in view of a specially solemn occasion. But the main point of the type not that; it is that those who clang to their sins were cut off from the people, and this typifies a judgment. The argument about repentance being “in real time” makes so much sense as saying that the saved cannot rejoice on the occasion of their reunion in heaven (see Lev. 23:40) because all people rejoice during their lifetime.

 Quote:
 Quote:
At His ascension? I apply these words of Paul to the cross.

You do? Let's look at the verse again that I was quoting, though there are several that have the same theme:

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

When did Jesus sit down? After the cross or after going into God's presence to present His sacrifice?


One prominent Bible emphasis is Jesus’ s exaltation after the cross.

“And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name” (Phil. 2:8,9).

“But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death” (Heb. 2:9).

The text you quoted says:

“Who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You’?” (Heb. 1:3-5).

The text quotes Psalms 2:7. So does Heb. 5:5, which speaks of Christ’s glorification as High Priest. But Ps. 2:7 is quoted in Acts 13:33 for Christ’s resurrection.

So, Christ’s resurrection and enthronement are seen as a joint event in the Bible – as His exaltation after the cross.

“This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear” (Acts 2:32, 33)

So I see Heb. 1:3 as a reference to Christ’s exaltation after the cross.

I see no presentation of blood at Christ’s ascension except for His inauguration as High Priest and His dedication of the sanctuary.

 Quote:
Verse 23 directly references the cleansing of the sanctuary and verse 24-25 are describing that cleansing in day of atonement language.

I see Heb. 9:23 as a generic reference to the cleansing of a sanctuary, not a specific reference to the day of atonement. There was a cleansing before the sanctuary was put into use. Paul refers to this in vv.21, 22, and it is in this context that v. 23 follows:

21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

If you read these verses with the dedication of the sanctuary in mind, the context becomes completely different.

Re: Does Blood Defile, Does Blood Cleanse, or Does Blood Do Both? [Re: Rosangela] #96385
03/06/08 10:27 PM
03/06/08 10:27 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Points on which I differ with you:
1- You see no problem with Atonement occurring before Pentecost, although God could simply have placed the Day of Atonement before the feast of Pentecost if this was the order in which their respective fulfillments would occur in the future.

2- You see no problem in altering the pattern of fulfillment of the OT types in the NT, although what I see is that Christ waited 10 days after His ascension to fulfill Pentecost. This fact 1) is a concrete evidence that He is concerned with the order and timing of the feasts; and 2) refutes your contention that everything was fulfilled together at the moment Christ ascended.

3- You see no problem in a 2000-year gap between the fulfillment of the first part of the type and the second.

4- You now see no problem with a 2000-year fulfillment, although in your previous post you were finding fault with a 150-year fulfillment.

Re: Does Blood Defile, Does Blood Cleanse, or Does Blood Do Both? [Re: vastergotland] #96386
03/06/08 10:43 PM
03/06/08 10:43 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Thomas,

I haven't read what is in the link provided, just read the paragraphs you posted, where he says many things but doesn't mention specifically his objctions. In the end, he says,

"Having made that sacrifice, Christ entered the Most Holy
Place--'heaven itself'--to appear in the presence of God on our behalf."

He here equates the most holy place with heaven (the common opinion of our evangelical friends), which begs the question, What is the holy place? or, What did the holy place symbolize?

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