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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #97690
04/03/08 06:03 AM
04/03/08 06:03 AM
H
Hakim  Offline
Retired Physician
Regular Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 91
Woodland, Califorinia
Mountain Man

Let me respond to these:
 Quote:
The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on “kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.” (SD 300)

Does it mean we are born again first and then we begin the gradual process of leaving off sinful practices? If so, what about these passages:

2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped [past tense] the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Sounds to me like first we escape corruption and then we partake of the divine nature, which implies the purpose of partaking of the divine nature is to mature in the fruits of the Spirit rather than to gradually leave off sinful practices.


What happens at conversion? From your comments you propose that all sins are overcome before conversion. At the same time, common observation is that there are a LOT of imperfect saints in the church. And I am not talking about bad breath, I would have to say that too many of us still have real sins in our lives.

I have heard it said that no man is ever 100% aware of himself. Each person has a "growing edge" to his personality where he is aware, active, and learning. When, within this growing edge, a person becomes aware of a sin, he must confess, seek forgiveness and cleansing (1 John 1:9).

At the same time there are large areas in one's personality that are "silent." These silent areas still affect daily life, but probably on a habitual level. And within this silent area are sins that a person is not aware of. It is by the grace of God that these sins are brought to our attention so that we can confess, seek forgiveness and be cleansed (Heb. 12:2). Many, if not most of our sins are in this category, and must be dealt with after we are converted.

As an aside, during the day of Atonement, the people of Israel were called on to "afflict themselves." I would propose that this was a process whereby a person actively sought for any hidden sin in his life, and sought forgiveness and cleansing. This is the process that the 144,000 must go through before the close of probation.

2 Peter 1:4-8 is an excellent passage describing the growth in grace of the Christian after he has been born again. It has been said that the closer we come to Christ, the more sinful we realize that we are. I suspect that we all regard the problem of sin altogether too lightly. It is only in the light of the cross that we see the hideousness of sin, and learn to hate any contact with sin.

The gap that is formed when the mature Christian recognizes the sinfulness of his nature is bridged only by the cross.
----------------------
Hubert F. Sturges

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Hakim] #97693
04/03/08 09:50 AM
04/03/08 09:50 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
"growing edge" is a nice phrase.

Nice post, Hubert. It's a difficult subject to describe precisely, and I think you did a good job here.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #97697
04/03/08 01:35 PM
04/03/08 01:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
HS: At the same time there are large areas in one's personality that are "silent." These silent areas still affect daily life, but probably on a habitual level. And within this silent area are sins that a person is not aware of. It is by the grace of God that these sins are brought to our attention so that we can confess, seek forgiveness and be cleansed (Heb. 12:2). Many, if not most of our sins are in this category, and must be dealt with after we are converted.

MM: I realize this is the most popular theory regarding growth in grace, character development, sanctification. However, I have been unable to support it from the Bible or the SOP. Again, nowhere does it say we are born again ignorant of certain sinful practices, certain defects and imperfections we are blind to because the Holy Spirit has chosen not to reveal them to us yet. Why would the Holy Spirit do such a thing?

I would like to ask you, as I have asked others who hold to this theory - can you name a sinful practice born again believers do unwittingly, blindly, ignorantly; that is, behaviors that offend people around them, that cause them to despise the Gospel, that lead them to conclude Christianity is a joke, defects and imperfections the Holy Spirit is waiting to reveal to them until the time is right?

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #97708
04/03/08 03:04 PM
04/03/08 03:04 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
MM: I realize this is the most popular theory regarding growth in grace, character development, sanctification. However, I have been unable to support it from the Bible or the SOP. Again, nowhere does it say we are born again ignorant of certain sinful practices, certain defects and imperfections we are blind to because the Holy Spirit has chosen not to reveal them to us yet.


Your last sentence here has some false logic built into it. It's a challenge discussing things with you because so much of what you write has these false premises buried into what you present. That is, you ask yes or no questions, or make black and white statements, that can't be dealt with on a "yes" or "no" basis because they assume false premises.

Here, for example, a false premise is in the part that says "because the Holy Spirit has chosen not to reveal them to us yet." This is a false premise, because it assumes causation where none exists.

For example, let's consider some other area of ignorance, in some other area of study, say Mathematics. Suppose you are learning Calculus, but there are certain integrals you don't know how to do. Now one could say, "Nowhere is it written that we don't know how to do certain integrals because God hasn't revealed their solutions to us."

Now it is certainly true that God knows how to do any integral we wish to perform, and it is also true that if God were to reveal their solution to us, we would no longer be ignorant of how to do them. However, it does not follow that the reason we don't know how to do the integrals is *because* God chooses not to reveal their solution to us.

 Quote:
I would like to ask you, as I have asked others who hold to this theory


You construct a false theory, that nobody holds to, and then ask people to defend it. Why not look at what people are actually saying, and respond to that?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #97719
04/03/08 05:37 PM
04/03/08 05:37 PM
H
Hakim  Offline
Retired Physician
Regular Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 91
Woodland, Califorinia
Mountain Man;

We'll start here:
 Quote:
I would like to ask you, as I have asked others who hold to this theory - can you name a sinful practice born again believers do unwittingly, blindly, ignorantly; that is, behaviors that offend people around them, that cause them to despise the Gospel, that lead them to conclude Christianity is a joke, defects and imperfections the Holy Spirit is waiting to reveal to them until the time is right?

Sins that are hidden? Are you kidding? Don't you sometimes use the term "blind spot" to describe offending habits of some people, where those people do not realize that they are offending?

I would propose that the basic sins deeply embedded in the sinful nature are pride and selfishness. There are some common sins -- criticism, gossiping, anger, stubbornness, failure to listen to others, being stingy with offerings, choosing fiction over Bible study ... (You add to the list). These are "white collar sins" that it is often easy to excuse, and even hide from ourselves. Can you think of any good church members who suffer from any of these sins? Will the 144,000 need to overcome these sins before they are sealed? If you say "no" to either question, I have a good deal on shares in the Brooklyn Bridge I would like to sell you!

Does the Holy Spirit "wait" to bring sins to our attention? YES! Of course! 1 Corinthians 10:13 indicates that our temptations, tests, and trials are measured according to what we are able to withstand. If God showed us all our sins at one time, we would be overwhelmed. He is patient and works with us as we are able.
----------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Hakim] #97789
04/05/08 04:35 AM
04/05/08 04:35 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Hubert, thank you for answering my questions. I take it your answer is - Yes.

I hear you saying "criticism, gossiping, anger, stubbornness, failure to listen to others, being stingy with offerings, choosing fiction over Bible study ... (You add to the list)" are examples of sinful habits and practices born again believers, who are abiding in Jesus, commit unwittingly because the Holy Spirit hasn't reveal it to them yet, and who are ignorant of the fact they are causing people around them to conclude Christianity is joke.

I must confess, though, that I find it hard to believe this is what Jesus had in mind when He promised - "go, and sin no more", "whosoever abideth in him sinneth not".

Do you have any Scripture or SOP support to back up your thoughts?

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #97790
04/05/08 04:36 AM
04/05/08 04:36 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, thank you for the math lesson. But I don't see the correlation.

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #97805
04/05/08 11:39 PM
04/05/08 11:39 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Tom, thank you for the math lesson. But I don't see the correlation.


The math was irrelevant. I was giving you an example of the logic you were using.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #97806
04/05/08 11:44 PM
04/05/08 11:44 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
I hear you saying "criticism, gossiping, anger, stubbornness, failure to listen to others, being stingy with offerings, choosing fiction over Bible study ... (You add to the list)" are examples of sinful habits and practices born again believers, who are abiding in Jesus, commit unwittingly because the Holy Spirit hasn't reveal it to them yet, and who are ignorant of the fact they are causing people around them to conclude Christianity is joke.


MM, you're not listening. You say, "I hear you saying ..." but what you are hearing is not at all what is being said. HS said nothing about "causing people around them to conclude Christianity is a joke." It's unkind of you to keep introducing this element.

Phrasing your thought this way would be far less offensive:

 Quote:
It seems to me your example of "criticism, gossiping, anger, stubbornness, failure to listen to others, being stingy with offerings, choosing fiction over Bible study ... (You add to the list)" are examples of sinful habits and practices born again believers, who are abiding in Jesus, commit unwittingly because the Holy Spirit hasn't reveal it to them yet. Am I hearing you correctly?


If you want to, you could add:

 Quote:
I reject this idea because this may cause people around them to conclude Christianity is joke.


Please think about how what you write will sound to the person reading your post.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #97813
04/06/08 01:41 AM
04/06/08 01:41 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, Hubert named specific sins people commit unwittingly. The he wrote: "Does the Holy Spirit "wait" to bring sins to our attention? YES! Of course!" From this I gather he believes the Holy Spirit waits to reveal these types of offfending sinful behaviors.

What do you think? Does the Holy Spirit wink at sinful behaviors in born again believers that cause people around them to conclude Christianity is a joke?

PS - You may have noticed by now that this is what concerns me. Thank you for being understanding.

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