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#185158 - 09/17/17 09:38 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
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Originally Posted By: Karen Y
The seven trumpets' introductory sanctuary scene depicts Christ’s priestly ministry of intercession. It means that the context has to remain in the background of the entire visionary sequence of the seven trumpets until casting of the fire, which depicts the close of probation. In this sense, it is historical for the sounding of the trumpets.


I can agree with that.
However, "historicism" doesn't mean just past history, it means it covers ALL history from a certain point onward to the conclusion.
Christ's intercessory ministry covers both His ministration in the Holy Place as well as the Most Holy, and if you look closely at Revelation 8:2-5 you will see both.

Revelation 8:3 begins the heavenly scene. We see the High Priest standing before the altar of incense, (which is in the Holy Place) making intercession for the people.

8:3 And another Angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.


So those two verses are speaking about our Mediator in the Holy Place.

Then in Rev. 8:5, we see a change--

The angel takes fire from the altar of incense where He has been ministering and fills the censor.
This signifies He is getting ready to go into the Most Holy Place.

Lev. 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the veil:

When He fills the censor He is ready to go into the Most Holy Place — the day of Atonement is about to begin.

When the priest comes out and throws down the censor, probation is closed, it will be too late to change.

Now lets look closely at verse five.

When the Priest throws down the censor there will be noise and an earthquake and thunderings.
BUT
it is not until the very last trumpet, the seventh trumpet is sounded that the noise, thunderings, lightnings actually are heard. Rev. 11:19

Rev. 8:5 And the angel took the censer, filled with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth; and there were VOICES, AMD THUNDERINGS, AND LIGHTNINGS, AMD AM EARTHQUAKE.


When do see this happening?
Rev. 11:15,19 And the seventh angel sounded....the temple of God was opened in heaven and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament; AND THERE WERE VOICES, LIGHTNINGS, and THUNDERINGS and an EARTHQUAKE, and great HAIL.

It is during the seventh trumpet that Christ's priestly work in the Most Holy Place takes place -- before the ark of His testament -- and yes it ends with the close of probation.

So basically I see these verses covering THE WHOLE period of Christ's heavenly sanctuary intercession -- in the Holy Place, in the Most Holy Place, right up to the close of probation.

Yes, this scene in the heavenly sanctuary covers the whole time of the trumpets which have been sounding over the Christian era.




Quote:
However, I believe that each trumpet sound does not depict historical EVENT. Considering how the threefold woe is announced, I understand that each trumpet is speaking about "woe" upon the inhabitant of the earth. The sound of the trumpet is the woes: "Woe, woe, woe, ... by reason of the other voices ..., which are yet to sound!" (Rev. 8:13). The passage is saying the REASON OF THE SOUNDING of the trumpet is woes.


Yes, they are judgments falling upon the world. "Woe" means great sorrow or distress, trouble.

Six have fallen, the seventh in progress.
We are nearly at the end!

Originally Posted By: Karen
So "One woe is past" means the sounding of the first trumpet of the threefold woe has blown (Rev. 9:12). Likewise, "The second woe is past" means the sounding of the second trumpet of the threefold woe has sounded (Rev. 11:14). In the third woe, "behold, the third woe cometh quickly" means the sounding of the third woe come quickly (Rev. 11:14).

Yes, the first three 'woes" which are the fifth and sixth trumpet, have sounded.
And the third woe (seventh trumpet) comes quickly.
We are nearly at the end!


Quote:
These soundings of the threefold woe must come before the close of probation as well as the first four trumpets sounding. Thus, the seven trumpets are all connected with the outlined sanctuary pattern.

True, they come before probation closes.

Between the sixth and seventh trumpet -- the messages of the three angels are proclaimed announcing that the hour of judgment is come -- and warning of the destruction about to fall upon the whole world. Chapter ten is not an overview of the trumpets, but a depiction of the end of the timelines, the great disappointment that resulted at the end of those timelines, and commission to prophecy again -- giving the three angel's messages to the world.
The seventh trumpet opens the door to the Most Holy place in which is the ark of the testament, (11:17)and then takes us to the end.

The first six are types of the final judgment.

In one sense all six together depict the totality which takes place in the seventh which is the final judgment. In that sense we can look at them, and studying their history be knowledgeable of many things that the last crises will be bring.

However, we need to be careful in putting a lot of things between us and the close of probation. The seventh comes quickly, and if we are still waiting for six before it, it will take us completely by surprise.



Originally Posted By: Karen
In Rev. 10:11, the verse indicate that the “prophesy again” is the overarching theme of the seven trumpets as one unit. Basically, the message of the seven trumpets is indicating that we should behold Christ in the heavenly sanctuary before He cast down the fire and closes the probationary time. The three angels message is succinctly proclaimed in the announcement of the seven trumpets that Jesus Christ is our only Assurance. God is sending out the final call in trumpet's sound and to repent before too late.

Yes, we do need to behold Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, He is our only Assurance, our only Salvation, and the message to repent and invite Him fully into our lives is urgent!

Yet, the trumpets give us a lot more information on the third angel's message and we do need to look back to their significance in history to understand what all the issues to come against us are.


Originally Posted By: Karen
I believe that the antitypical Day of Atonement terminates with loud sound of trumpets, which is the Jubilee in reality and we shall be ushered into the kingdom of our Lord, Jesus Christ, and shall reign with Him for ever and ever.


Yes, the "last trump" when the dead shall arise and we shall be changed and meet the Lord in air!
A wonderful conclusion to this earth's trouble and terror, and the Hope of all who believe!
-- however, I don't believe that trumpet that calls the dead from the graves is one of the seven judgment trumpets.
It is the great victory trumpet!!!



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#185161 - 09/18/17 02:20 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
kland Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Rev. 8:5 And the angel took the censer, filled with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth; and there were VOICES, AMD THUNDERINGS, AND LIGHTNINGS, AMD AM EARTHQUAKE.


When do see this happening?
Rev. 11:15,19 And the seventh angel sounded....the temple of God was opened in heaven and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament; AND THERE WERE VOICES, LIGHTNINGS, and THUNDERINGS and an EARTHQUAKE, and great HAIL.

It is during the seventh trumpet that Christ's priestly work in the Most Holy Place takes place -- before the ark of His testament -- and yes it ends with the close of probation.
Could you expand and make sense of the following:

Re 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

It sounds to me from the context that after the censer is thrown, then the seven angels sound.

What would be the reason that you say this is not so?
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#185162 - 09/19/17 12:01 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
dedication Online   content

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It's a matter of understanding Biblical sequence.
The author does not generally mix the heavenly scenes with the earthly scenes, but tells the story of each in separate sections.



The seven angels prepared themselves to sound.
They prepare to sound AT THE BEGINNING --
They are preparing to sound when Christ is in the Holy Place before the altar of incense.


It's saying -- those angels are preparing to sound

Now this is what will be happening in heaven while they are sounding, Christ will be ministering before the altar of incense, meditating for His praying followers, later He will take the golden censer full of coals from the altar and enter the Most holy Place, and when He comes out He will throw down the censer and there will be great thunderings, lightening, earthquakes etc.

Next we will look at what will be happening on earth, during that same time --
the first angel will sound
then the second, then the third, then the fourth.
Things will get worse (woes) as the fifth and sixth angel sounds.
But then there will be a short "intermission" -- (chp. 10-11)
the power of the beast is broken after 1260 years, in attempt to ban the Bible and religion which will actually result in liberating the Bible so everyone can read it, and bring in freedom of religion.
Also a people will arise, at the time of this intermission, who after a severe disappointment, will go forth to prophecy and proclaim the three angel's messages.
Then the seventh angel will sound, as the message that the "time of judgment of the dead" has come, people will study the sanctuary and see the ark of the covenant within the sanctuary message. But the nations will be very angry (this is still a "woe" time and there will be trouble)

Then we see the two scenes merging in -- there will be great thunderings, lightening, earthquakes etc.



The heavenly scene is given first to assure believers that Christ is mediating FOR THEM, even when these terrible judgments fall upon the earth.




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#185164 - 09/20/17 02:41 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
Karen Y Offline
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Active Member 2016

Full Member
Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 272
Loc: Michigan, US
Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Karen Y
The seven trumpets' introductory sanctuary scene depicts Christ’s priestly ministry of intercession. It means that the context has to remain in the background of the entire visionary sequence of the seven trumpets until casting of the fire, which depicts the close of probation. In this sense, it is historical for the sounding of the trumpets.


I can agree with that.
However, "historicism" doesn't mean just past history, it means it covers ALL history from a certain point onward to the conclusion.
Christ's intercessory ministry covers both His ministration in the Holy Place as well as the Most Holy, and if you look closely at Revelation 8:2-5 you will see both.


That is exactly what I see in Rev. 8:2-5. Jesus became the High Priest when He ascended to heaven. He has been handling the golden censer ever since which proves that this snapshot has the anti-typical Day of Atonement theme. Notice that the golden censer is used only on the Day of Atonement. (see Lev. 16:12).

Originally Posted By: dedication
Revelation 8:3 begins the heavenly scene. We see the High Priest standing before the altar of incense, (which is in the Holy Place) making intercession for the people.


I had to broaden my insight that the locality is not only the Holy Place but inclusive of the Most Holy Place in the snapshot of the introduction of the seven trumpets (Rev. 8:2-5). In the book of Hebrew, this theological understanding is mentioned in Chap. 9:2-3. The golden censer is accounted as the article of the Most Holy Place.

Originally Posted By: dedication
8:3 And another Angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.


So those two verses are speaking about our Mediator in the Holy Place.


I don't believe that we are to divide the introductory vision of the seven trumpets. It is the vision of Jesus' intercessory work as the High Priest. Is there any demarcation in the heavenly sanctuary between Holy and MHP? There should be no veil because the body of Christ is the veil that is torn (Heb. 10:19-20).

Originally Posted By: dedication
Then in Rev. 8:5, we see a change--

The angel takes fire from the altar of incense where He has been ministering and fills the censor.
This signifies He is getting ready to go into the Most Holy Place.


Are you saying that the seventh trumpet sounded at this point? What do you mean also in the below of your comments?
Originally Posted By: dedication
However, we need to be careful in putting a lot of things between us and the close of probation. The seventh comes quickly, and if we are still waiting for six before it, it will take us completely by surprise.

Are you saying the seventh came or will come?

Originally Posted By: dedication
Lev. 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the veil:

When He fills the censor He is ready to go into the Most Holy Place — the day of Atonement is about to begin.


Scripture says that high priest enters the MHP four times in the Day of Atonement. At the fourth time, he filled the censer (the fire pan container) to throw down the fire (See Lev. 16).


Originally Posted By: dedication
When the Priest throws down the censor there will be noise and an earthquake and thunderings.
BUT
it is not until the very last trumpet, the seventh trumpet is sounded that the noise, thunderings, lightnings actually are heard. Rev. 11:19


Again, are you saying the last trumpet (the seventh) will sound to close the probationary time or begun sounding at 1844? Sorry, I am not clearly understanding where you stand.

Originally Posted By: dedication
Rev. 8:5 And the angel took the censer, filled with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth; and there were VOICES, AMD THUNDERINGS, AND LIGHTNINGS, AMD AM EARTHQUAKE.


When do see this happening?
Rev. 11:15,19 And the seventh angel sounded....the temple of God was opened in heaven and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament; AND THERE WERE VOICES, LIGHTNINGS, and THUNDERINGS and an EARTHQUAKE, and great HAIL.

Here I see the close of probation at the seventh angel's announcement. It did not happen at 1844 because it is announcement: "the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our Lord"

Originally Posted By: dedication
It is during the seventh trumpet that Christ's priestly work in the Most Holy Place takes place -- before the ark of His testament -- and yes it ends with the close of probation.

So basically I see these verses covering THE WHOLE period of Christ's heavenly sanctuary intercession -- in the Holy Place, in the Most Holy Place, right up to the close of probation.

Yes, this scene in the heavenly sanctuary covers the whole time of the trumpets which have been sounding over the Christian era.

The theme of the seven trumpets message is the assurance of Jesus' intercessory work as our High Priest on the anti-typical Day of Atonement. All the sounding of the trumpets is warning/announcement of the close of probation. The catastrophe of the seven trumpets has not occurred in the past history.


Quote:
However, I believe that each trumpet sound does not depict historical EVENT. Considering how the threefold woe is announced, I understand that each trumpet is speaking about "woe" upon the inhabitant of the earth. The sound of the trumpet is the woes: "Woe, woe, woe, ... by reason of the other voices ..., which are yet to sound!" (Rev. 8:13). The passage is saying the REASON OF THE SOUNDING of the trumpet is woes.



Originally Posted By: dedication
Six have fallen, the seventh in progress.
Here you are saying the seventh trumpet sounding is in progress. Please read carefully, the seventh trumpet is just an announcement in progress, and it is in a future tense: "shall become the kingdoms of the Lord". What makes the seventh one only announcement but the first six is historical events? I believe they are all announcements.



Originally Posted By: Karen
So "One woe is past" means the sounding of the first trumpet of the threefold woe has blown (Rev. 9:12). Likewise, "The second woe is past" means the sounding of the second trumpet of the threefold woe has sounded (Rev. 11:14). In the third woe, "behold, the third woe cometh quickly" means the sounding of the third woe come quickly (Rev. 11:14).


Originally Posted By: dedication
Yes, the first three 'woes" which are the fifth and sixth trumpet, have sounded.
And the third woe (seventh trumpet) comes quickly.

If the fifth and sixth trumpets sounded and the seventh one has not come yet, we are in a vacuum space(?) because it did not come "quickly". I have a difficult time understanding this logic.


Originally Posted By: Karen
In Rev. 10:11, the verse indicate that the “prophesy again” is the overarching theme of the seven trumpets as one unit. Basically, the message of the seven trumpets is indicating that we should behold Christ in the heavenly sanctuary before He cast down the fire and closes the probationary time. The three angels message is succinctly proclaimed in the announcement of the seven trumpets that Jesus Christ is our only Assurance. God is sending out the final call in trumpet's sound and to repent before too late.


Yes, we do need to behold Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, He is our only Assurance, our only Salvation, and the message to repent and invite Him fully into our lives is urgent!



Originally Posted By: Karen
I believe that the antitypical Day of Atonement terminates with loud sound of trumpets, which is the Jubilee in reality and we shall be ushered into the kingdom of our Lord, Jesus Christ, and shall reign with Him for ever and ever.


Yes, the "last trump" when the dead shall arise and we shall be changed and meet the Lord in air!
A wonderful conclusion to this earth's trouble and terror, and the Hope of all who believe!

[/quote]
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#185170 - 09/22/17 12:41 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
APL Offline
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Registered: 01/31/11
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Quote:
There should be no veil because the body of Christ is the veil that is torn (Heb. 10:19-20).
Heb 10:19-20 Having therefore, brothers, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Is the veil his flesh, or is His flesh the new and living way through the veil? His flesh is not the veil but the new and living way through it. The veil is taken away in Christ; Christ remains.
_________________________
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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#185172 - 09/22/17 11:23 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y]
dedication Online   content

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Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 4183
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Originally Posted By: Karen Y

Again, are you saying the last trumpet (the seventh) will sound to close the probationary time or begun sounding at 1844? Sorry, I am not clearly understanding where you stand.

Originally Posted By: dedication
It is during the seventh trumpet that Christ's priestly work in the Most Holy Place takes place -- before the ark of His testament -- and yes it ends with the close of probation.


We are living in the time of the seventh trumpet.

They are not just announcements each one describes what happens in symbolic language.
And yes, six have taken place, we are living in the last one. And yes, earth's time is running out.
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#185173 - 09/23/17 12:06 AM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication]
The Wanderer Offline
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Posts: 249
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Originally Posted By: dedication
earth's time is running out.

When I became a church member, almost 30 years ago, people said this exact same thing. Did someone miss something somewhere?
_________________________
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)

- The Wanderer
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#185177 - 09/23/17 10:26 PM Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: The Wanderer]
dedication Online   content

Global Moderator
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Registered: 04/25/04
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Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: dedication
earth's time is running out.

When I became a church member, almost 30 years ago, people said this exact same thing. Did someone miss something somewhere?


What is 30 years in relationship to 2000 years?
All that means is we are 30 years closer to the second coming than we were when you became a church member.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Six trumpets have sounded. We are living in the last trumpet when Christ is still in the Most Holy Place -- all that is holding back the last scenes are those four angels pushing back the winds of strife till all God's people are sealed.
When they release, probation closes.

Time is running out
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