Is this person saved or lost?

A lady in New Hampshire bore her testimony in a public meeting that the grace of God was ruling in her heart and that she was wholly the Lord's. She then expressed her belief that this people were doing much good in arousing sinners to see their danger. She said, "The Sabbath that this people present to us is the only Sabbath of the Bible"; and then stated that her mind had been very much exercised upon the subject. She saw great trials before her, which she must meet if she kept the seventh day. The next day she came to meeting and again bore her testimony, saying she had asked the Lord if she must keep the Sabbath, and He had told her she need not keep it. Her mind was now at rest upon that subject. She then gave a most stirring exhortation for all to come to the perfect love of Jesus, where there was no condemnation to the soul.

Question: Is she saved? Is she born again? Is she converted?

... surely there is no morning for them.

Question: Is she saved? Is she born again? Is she converted?

Teresaq, which Bible version are you quoting?

A lady in New Hampshire bore her testimony in a public meeting that the grace of God was ruling in her heart and that she was wholly the Lord's. She then expressed her belief that this people were doing much good in arousing sinners to see their danger. She said, "The Sabbath that this people present to us is the only Sabbath of the Bible"; and then stated that her mind had been very much exercised upon the subject. She saw great trials before her, which she must meet if she kept the seventh day. The next day she came to meeting and again bore her testimony, saying she had asked the Lord if she must keep the Sabbath, and He had told her she need not keep it. Her mind was now at rest upon that subject. She then gave a most stirring exhortation for all to come to the perfect love of Jesus, where there was no condemnation to the soul. {SL 66.2}

This woman did not possess genuine sanctification. It was not God who told her that she could be sanctified while living in disobedience to one of His plain commandments. God's law is sacred, and none can transgress it with impunity. The one who told her that she could continue to break God's law and be sinless was the prince of the powers of darkness--the same who told Eve in Eden, through the serpent, "Ye shall not surely die" (Gen. 3:4). Eve flattered herself that God was too kind to punish her for disobedience of His express commands. The same sophistry is urged by thousands in excuse of their disobedience of the fourth commandment. Those who have the mind of Christ will keep all of God's commandments, irrespective of circumstances. The Majesty of heaven says, "I have kept my Father's commandments" (John 15:10). {SL 67.1}

"Judge not, that ye be not judged." Do not think yourself better than other men, and set yourself up as their judge. Since you cannot discern motive, you are incapable of judging another. In criticizing him, you are passing sentence upon yourself; for you show that you are a participant with Satan, the accuser of the brethren. The Lord says, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves." This is our work. "If we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." 2 Corinthians 13:5; 1 Corinthians 11:31.(DA 314; empahsis mine)

Where did she comment on whether the person was lost or saved? I don't understand why you're raising this question. It's not our job to determine if our fellow is saved or lost; that's God's domain alone.

As to why I brought this up for discussion - it's because I suspect it can help us better understand the blessed assurance. We should be able to confidently approach the throne of God knowing we are saved fearing nothing. We should be able to know this about ourselves, and we should be able to help others to know it about themselves.

So, here's the question - Under what conditions can we know we are right with God, that we are without spot or blame, that our service and allegiance are acceptable and pleasing in His sight? Or, would it be too dangerous to know the truth about ourselves in this lifetime? Would it be safer for us now to believe we are so sinful and so unlike Jesus that it isn't even funny?

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Rom. 8)

Peter's fall was not instantaneous, but gradual. Self-confidence led him to the belief that he was saved, and step after step was taken in the downward path, until he could deny his Master. Never can we safely put confidence in self or feel, this side of heaven, that we are secure against temptation. Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. This is misleading. Every one should be taught to cherish hope and faith; but even when we give ourselves to Christ and know that He accepts us, we are not beyond the reach of temptation. God's word declares, "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried." Dan. 12:10. Only he who endures the trial will receive the crown of life. (James 1:12.) (COL 155)

So, here's the question - Under what conditions can we know we are right with God, that we are without spot or blame, that our service and allegiance are acceptable and pleasing in His sight? Or, would it be too dangerous to know the truth about ourselves in this lifetime? Would it be safer for us now to believe we are so sinful and so unlike Jesus that it isn't even funny?

The closer we come to Jesus, the more clearly we see our defects of character. I believe the light from God gives us an accurate view of ourselves.

IAH, thank you for the list. But, man, what a terrible time you must have had compiling it. You must have been tempted to think your time could be better spent doing something more satisfying!!!

M: So, here's the question - Under what conditions can we know we are right with God, that we are without spot or blame, that our service and allegiance are acceptable and pleasing in His sight? Or, would it be too dangerous to know the truth about ourselves in this lifetime? Would it be safer for us now to believe we are so sinful and so unlike Jesus that it isn't even funny?

A:The closer we come to Jesus, the more clearly we see our defects of character. I believe the light from God gives us an accurate view of ourselves.

But what does it mean to "see our defects of character" more clearly? Is this the same thing as saying we are sinning?

It's one thing to possess defects and imperfections and it's quite another thing to act them out in though, word, or deed.

Yes, the closer people draw to Jesus the more sinful their defects and imperfections will appear to them. But this isn't saying they are more guilty

or more sinful

or sinning more frequently

or discovering sins they were previously unaware of before.

So, the questions remain - Under what conditions can we know we are right with God, that we are without spot or blame, that our service and allegiance are acceptable and pleasing in His sight?

Or, would it be too dangerous to know it?

Would it be safer for us now to believe we are sinful and unlike Jesus?

are those the right questions?

my "assurance" is that God will do everything He can to save me. i can trust wholly in Him.

We may claim the blessed assurance, "I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions" (Isa. 44:22). Thy "sins, which are many, are forgiven" (Luke 7:47). O how precious, how refreshing, is the sunlight of God's love! The sinner may look upon his sin-stained life, and say, "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died" (Rom. 8:34). "Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound" (Rom. 5:20). Christ the Restorer plants a new principle of life in the soul, and that plant grows and produces fruit. The grace of Christ purifies while it pardons, and fits men for a holy heaven. {TMK 336.5}

God wishes us to have the mastery over ourselves. But He cannot help us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the powers and faculties given to man. Of ourselves, we are not able to bring the purposes and desires and inclinations into harmony with the will of God; but if we are "willing to be made willing," the Saviour will accomplish this for us, "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." 2 Corinthians 10:5. {AA 482.3}

Arnold, are people supposed to feel foul and filthy while they are abiding in Jesus? Is there no respite from their sinful condition? Must they always view themselves as defective and disgusting? If they are so sinful and wretched why does the Bible describe them as clothed in fine linen? "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." Can they not see themselves as God sees them? "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. . . For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

Arnold, are people supposed to feel foul and filthy while they are abiding in Jesus? Is there no respite from their sinful condition? Must they always view themselves as defective and disgusting?

So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. {GC 620.1}

If they are so sinful and wretched why does the Bible describe them as clothed in fine linen? "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

Can they not see themselves as God sees them?

im real curious why so many people seem to think its so necessary to be seen as "clean" or "sinless"?

Because God's requirement now is the same as it was in Eden - perfect obedience, perfect righteousness.

Christ ... declares, "... I have been punished for his transgressions..." {PrT, January 30, 1890 par. 6}

i dont know that i feel that way. i mean, i know i do if i get around certain kinds of people who think they are christians.

but ive never felt that way with God. convicted is a much better word. and why shouldnt we view ourselves as defective?
i dont know, when God convicts me it is a statement of fact but there are no "feelings" with it. but seeing myself as defective is a very good state to be in. it means im always dependent on Christ. defective, but loved and wanted.

im real curious why so many people seem to think its so necessary to be seen as "clean" or "sinless"?

God requires perfection of His children. His law is a transcript of His own character, and it is the standard of all character. This infinite standard is presented to all that there may be no mistake in regard to the kind of people whom God will have to compose His kingdom. The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law, and when those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. Then the Lord can trust them to be of the number who shall compose the family of heaven. Clothed in the glorious apparel of Christ's righteousness, they have a place at the King's feast. They have a right to join the blood-washed throng. {COL 315.1}

That perfection of character which the Lord requires is the fitting up of the whole being as a temple for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. God will accept of nothing less than the service of the entire human organism. It is not enough to bring into action certain parts of the living machinery. All parts must work in perfect harmony, or the service will be deficient. It is thus that man is qualified to cooperate with God in representing Christ to the world. Thus God desires to prepare a people to stand before Him pure and holy, that He may introduce them into the society of heavenly angels. {OHC 265.2}

None are living Christians unless they have a daily experience in the things of God and daily practice self-denial, cheerfully bearing the cross and following Christ. Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day; and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality. {2T 505.1}

So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. {GC 620.1}

M: Arnold, are people supposed to feel foul and filthy while they are abiding in Jesus? Is there no respite from their sinful condition? Must they always view themselves as defective and disgusting?

A: Here's how inspiration tells us will be the experience of those after the close of probation: "So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. {GC 620.1}

M: If they are so sinful and wretched why does the Bible describe them as clothed in fine linen? "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

A: They do have fine linen. But it is Christ's robe of righteousness, not theirs, that God looks at. Why? Because only His righteousness meets the perfect standard.

M: Can they not see themselves as God sees them?

A: They do, if they stop looking at themselves and look at Christ instead. No matter how holy we may become, Christ's holiness is still what God looks at and accepts.

One of the things God must do to win the great controversy is produce 144,000 sinners turned saints who stand before the Universe without spot or blame. He cannot win the GC by simply covering sinners who are full of spots and blame with the robe of Christ's righteousness. If this were possible He would have done it a long time ago with A&E and ended the GC then and there. True, people need the robe of Christ's righteousness to cover their past pardoned sins, but they also need to be free of sin, not only in the legal sense, but also in the real sense.

We're not to go around like that poor wretched soul in Pilgrim's Progress lamenting our wicked past. Nor are we to go around lamenting our wicked potential.

Because God's requirement now is the same as it was in Eden - perfect obedience, perfect righteousness.

no, i understand that. but im not perfect anything. dont think i can get my point across.....it just doesnt bother me that God sees me warts and all. how would He point out my defects if He didnt. if i keep responding to the Holy Spirit at some point it will all work out, so why do i need Him to see me differently than just exactly what i am?

im real curious why so many people seem to think its so necessary to be seen as "clean" or "sinless"?

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. (COL 312)

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection." DA 357

I think it's because people don't believe God's character is such that He would accept someone such as they are. It seems odd that people would feel this way, given how Jesus treated people, and that Jesus was the revelation of the Father, but many people feel this way.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. (John 8)

Sin is lethal, therefore God condemns it. Sin would be lethal regardless of whether or not God condemned it. But because sin is evil, causing death to those whom God loves, He condemns it.

T:Sin is lethal, therefore God condemns it. Sin would be lethal regardless of whether or not God condemned it. But because sin is evil, causing death to those whom God loves, He condemns it.

A:And if someone does something that God condemns because he could not see any reason why God condemns it, would it still be lethal?

Said the angel: "If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject."(EW 73)

Sin would be lethal regardless of whether or not God condemned it.

Regarding the wedding garment, here's a nice quote:

God condemns it not just because it's lethal. God condemns it because it's bad. God could prevent Satan from reaping the full result of his sin for ever, then it would not be lethal. However, it would still be bad, and God would still condemn it.

The following discusses this question:

No. If there is no sin, and no condemnation, how would it be lethal?

Said the angel: "If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject."(EW 73)

T:Sin is lethal, therefore God condemns it. Sin would be lethal regardless of whether or not God condemned it. But because sin is evil, causing death to those whom God loves, He condemns it.

Adultery is lethal, not just because God says it is, and not because you agree with God, but because adultery is inherently bad for us.

I wasn't trying to say anything different than what the angel said to Ellen White.

It is meant in the legal sense, so you might not agree.

In a forensic sense, there is no guilt incurred. If one does something against God's will because he didn't know any better, it is "unknown sin" and is handled differently than willful sin.

However, ignorance does not save one from the practical effects of doing that which God says we should not do. Even if there is no legal problem, it still hurts; it could even kill.

The "it" here refers to sin, I take it? So when the angel said, "there is no sin," he didn't mean it literally, but was meaning to communicate that this is not a sin which results in guilt, although it would still result in death. Have I understood your thought correctly?

This looks like you're saying the same thing as my summary above, so I think I did understand you correctly.

When I've been talking about sin being lethal, I've been talking about the second death. Have you had this idea in mind as well? If not, then we've been talking past each other to some extent.

A:It is meant in the legal sense, so you might not agree.

T:The "it" here refers to sin, I take it? So when the angel said, "there is no sin," he didn't mean it literally, but was meaning to communicate that this is not a sin which results in guilt, although it would still result in death. Have I understood your thought correctly?

A:It was literal, but in a legal sense. Sin was not imputed to the perpetrator, so imputed righteousness is not required. However, imparted righteousness is lacking, and needs to be supplied.

No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like. (John 1:18)

T:When I've been talking about sin being lethal, I've been talking about the second death. Have you had this idea in mind as well? If not, then we've been talking past each other to some extent.

A:Here is where your assertions get muddy. You say sin is "2nd death" lethal. From other discussions, I think you believe that God is not the one that causes the 2nd death, but sin does. Correct?

But now, you bring up the "no light, no sin" concept. How does lack of light protect one against the 2nd death that sin causes?

Is darkness that powerful that it can protect us from the wages of sin?

And this will impact your position on human understanding being required in order to obey/disobey. Can human ignorance really keep us safe from the negative consequences of that which God says we should not do?

On top of all this, consider the 1st human sin in history. What is it that made the fruit lethal? Was there something wrong with the fruit? Or was it something else that made it lethal?

God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.(DA 764)

The context has nothing legal about it. Ellen White was worried about displeasing God, because they weren't keeping the Sabbath correctly. The angel explained that God was not displeased because they didn't know any better. The context bears this out. There's no legal discussion going on.

If the death that sin causes involves the conscience, then that's how.

Have you read Ty Gibson's books? Specifically "See With New Eyes" or "Shades of Grace"? I'm mentioning this because he describes the principles I'm talking about, and does so very well. At any rate, darkness doesn't protect against anything, but, as the angel said, if there is no light, there is no sin, no condemnation, no frown of God.

At the judgment, God reveals Himself to each sinner. Those who have rejected the healing work of the Spirit of God will not be able to bear this revelation, because simultaneous to the revelation of God is the revelation of self; God's goodness makes clear our badness. Our badness primarily involves willful choices; it is this which works against the conscience.

I think this is a misleading way of framing the issue. If there is no light, then there is no sin, condemnation, nor frown of God. If there is no condemnation, why would a person die?

Satan misrepresented God's character, which deception led the first humans into rebellion. Rebellion is separation from God, which is lethal:

T:The context has nothing legal about it. Ellen White was worried about displeasing God, because they weren't keeping the Sabbath correctly. The angel explained that God was not displeased because they didn't know any better. The context bears this out. There's no legal discussion going on.

A:"The context has nothing legal about it" and "There's no legal discussion going on" except what you wrote in between those two assertions describes the legal issue. It is impute vs impart.

If there was no conscience, there would be no death? True?

T:I haven't read those books. Maybe I'll come across them one of these days.

A:Anyway, if there's no "frown of God" there's no problem? True?

Unknown sin is benign? If one didn't know that adultery was condemned by God, he could continue to indulge in it without any negative consequences? True?

I thought it was the sin itself that was bad? Adultery, for example, is inherently bad, no matter what you do or don't know. That's what I believe.

What does the fruit have to do with that? I understand that rebelling is bad. But why did eating the fruit kill them? What was wrong with the fruit?

Satan misrepresented God's character, which deception led the first humans into rebellion. Rebellion is separation from God, which is lethal.

I think this is just illustrating my point about one's paradigm causing one to see things in a certain way. I don't think either Ellen White or the angel were thinking of things forensic.

Without a conscience, I think we would be discussing beings like animals, who are unable to make moral choices. If God had only creating beings like this, there would be no death.

No, I wouldn't put it that way. A sin of ignorance is still a problem, as you pointed out.


No, not true. I didn't suggest this to be the case. I agree with the comments you made regarding sins of ignorance, provided "lethal" were replaced with "harmful," as I was speaking of lethality in the context of the second death.


Yes, I've made this same point.

By the way, this begs a question. Assuming that sin is lethal, of itself, why would God need to pronounce a sentence against those who do it, and execute them? I'm not quite sure where you stand on this; I'm not trying to misrepresent your thoughts here. Assuming sin is lethal, then pronouncing sentence against those who do it would be like giving the penalty of capital punishment for those who would commit suicide, wouldn't it? Are we on the same page regarding this?

i dont know that i feel that way. i mean, i know i do if i get around certain kinds of people who think they are christians.

but ive never felt that way with God. convicted is a much better word. and why shouldnt we view ourselves as defective?
i dont know, when God convicts me it is a statement of fact but there are no "feelings" with it. but seeing myself as defective is a very good state to be in. it means im always dependent on Christ. defective, but loved and wanted.

im real curious why so many people seem to think its so necessary to be seen as "clean" or "sinless"?

God requires perfection of His children. His law is a transcript of His own character, and it is the standard of all character. This infinite standard is presented to all that there may be no mistake in regard to the kind of people whom God will have to compose His kingdom. The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law, and when those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. Then the Lord can trust them to be of the number who shall compose the family of heaven. Clothed in the glorious apparel of Christ's righteousness, they have a place at the King's feast. They have a right to join the blood-washed throng. {COL 315.1}

That perfection of character which the Lord requires is the fitting up of the whole being as a temple for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. God will accept of nothing less than the service of the entire human organism. It is not enough to bring into action certain parts of the living machinery. All parts must work in perfect harmony, or the service will be deficient. It is thus that man is qualified to cooperate with God in representing Christ to the world. Thus God desires to prepare a people to stand before Him pure and holy, that He may introduce them into the society of heavenly angels. {OHC 265.2}

None are living Christians unless they have a daily experience in the things of God and daily practice self-denial, cheerfully bearing the cross and following Christ. Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day; and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality. {2T 505.1}

So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. {GC 620.1}

M: Arnold, are people supposed to feel foul and filthy while they are abiding in Jesus? Is there no respite from their sinful condition? Must they always view themselves as defective and disgusting?

A: Here's how inspiration tells us will be the experience of those after the close of probation: "So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. {GC 620.1}

M: If they are so sinful and wretched why does the Bible describe them as clothed in fine linen? "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

A: They do have fine linen. But it is Christ's robe of righteousness, not theirs, that God looks at. Why? Because only His righteousness meets the perfect standard.

M: Can they not see themselves as God sees them?

A: They do, if they stop looking at themselves and look at Christ instead. No matter how holy we may become, Christ's holiness is still what God looks at and accepts.

As I explained:


The believing a lie about God's character, leading to distrust of God and rebellion was what was lethal. The fruit was not poisonous.

Yes, it is true the 144,000 will pass through this experience. But this is a unique experience. It doesn't reflect what life is supposed to be like now or afterward. If so, none could endure it long enough to hold out until death or until Jesus returns. We're not to go around like that poor wretched soul in Pilgrim's Progress lamenting our wicked past. Nor are we to go around lamenting our wicked potential. While abiding in Jesus it is our privilege to revel in the joy of Jesus. Again, while abiding in Jesus, that is, while abiding in Jesus.

That's an interesting quote. So, is such a person, clothed in Christ's righteousness, abiding in Jesus? WDYT, MM?

The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized. {SC 62.1}

It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2}

More than this, Christ changes the heart. He abides in your heart by faith. You are to maintain this connection with Christ by faith and the continual surrender of your will to Him; and so long as you do this, He will work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. So you may say, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20. So Jesus said to His disciples, "It is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:20. Then with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works --works of righteousness, obedience. {SC 62.3}

Romans
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Wherever there is an impulse of love and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God's Holy Spirit. In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The "Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God. {COL 385.1}

In the day of final reckoning, Christ does not present before men the great work He has done for them in giving His life for their redemption. He presents before them the faithful work they have done for Him. What surpassing love is this! He even mentions the work of the heathen, who have no intelligent knowledge of the law of the Lord, but who have done the very things the law required, because they have heeded the voice speaking to them in the things of nature. When the Holy Spirit implants Christ's Spirit in the heart of the savage, and he befriends God's servants, the quickening of the heart's sympathy is contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The grace of God, working upon the darkened mind, has softened the savage nature untaught by the wisdom of men. . . . {SD 364.3}

Christ implants His grace in the heart of the savage, and he ministers to the necessity of the missionary, even before he has heard or comprehended the words of truth and life. Behold that crowd collected about God's servant to harm him! But the Lord is working upon the heart and mind of perhaps one man to plead in behalf of His servant; and when the war council has determined the destruction of the Christian's life, the intercession of that savage turns the decision, and his life is spared. O, the love that goes forth to the savage for this one act! To such Christ says, in the Judgment: "I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me." "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." {SD 364.4}

Why, then, does it say, "the fine linen is the righteousness of saints"?

Isn't the spiritual experience of the 144k the highest human achievement this side of eternity?

Indeed, this applies only to those who are abiding in Jesus! It also goes to show that God has a need to see us through "Jesus glasses", as Tom called it. God cannot simply "see us as we are" and be satisfied. Everything we think, say, and do must be purified and perfumed with the blood and righteousness of Jesus.

But "more than this", we must also consent and cooperate with the heavenly agencies and be perfect even as God is perfect.

So, how can this apply to everyone who will be rewarded with eternal life? How can it apply to people like the thief on the cross, or the Gentiles Paul spoke about in Romans 2:13-15, or the savages Ellen wrote about in COL 385? In what have people like these "reached the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression"?

It is theirs, because they get it from Christ. This robe has not in it one thread of human devising.

Satan had claimed that it was impossible for man to obey God's commandments; and in our own strength it is true that we cannot obey them. But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts. {COL 314.4}

We must receive in thoughts and in feelings, to give in expression. The law of the human and the divine action makes the receiver a laborer together with God. It brings man where he can, united with divinity, work the works of God. Humanity touches humanity. Divine power and the human agency combined will be a complete success, for Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything. {FW 26.3}

He took humanity upon Himself to demonstrate that with divinity and humanity combined, man could keep the law of Jehovah. Separate humanity from divinity, and you can try to work out your own righteousness from now till Christ comes, and it will be nothing but a failure. {FW 71.1}

Christ satisfied the demands of the law in His human nature. He bore the curse of the law for the sinner, made an atonement for him, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Genuine faith appropriates the righteousness of Christ, and the sinner is made an overcomer with Christ; for he is made a partaker of the divine nature, and thus divinity and humanity are combined. {FW 93.3}

Christ did not exchange His divinity for humanity, but combined humanity with divinity; and in humanity He lived the law in behalf of the human family. The sins of every one who will receive Christ were set to His account, and He has fully satisfied the justice of God. {FE 429.2}

"These things have I spoken unto you," the Saviour said, "that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full" (John 15: 11). The work of overcoming is not a joyless work; no, indeed. It means communication with Heaven. You can go to God in prayer; you can ask, and receive; you can believe, hanging your helpless soul on Christ. It means that humanity can work the will and ways of God. Humanity and divinity are combined for this very purpose. {HP 279.2}

Yes, we are to be perfect. But our perfection is not acceptable as is; it must be covered by Christ's blood.

It is the condition of sinlessness described in 1Jn 3:9. Those who are born of God do not and cannot sin. That applies to all who are born of God, whether a newbie or a veteran, a savage or a scholar. But it is a sinlessness that does not negate 1Jn 1:8, 10.

This is the crux of the question, eh! I have yet to read in the Bible or the SOP where this view of experiential righteousness is supported. I have read where such righteousness is the result of Jesus shedding His blood for us on the cross. But I have not read where it is unacceptable to the Father.

Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2}

PS - Even the famous quote in 1SM 344 does not say the fruits of combining the human and divine natures yields righteousness which is unacceptable to God. Listen:

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned. {1SM 344.2}

Again, amen! However, I suspect you have a different interpretation of 1 John 1:6-10 than I do. I suspect you, like others, take it to mean we can never be truly free from sin, that sin is so systemic that we will always, in one way or another, sin, and that this condition of sinfulness will continue to taint everything we do until the day Jesus returns and replaces our sinful flesh with sinless flesh. Of course, this theory assumes sin is a state of doing as well as a state of being.

Are my suspicions of your interpretation of 1 John 1:6-10 right, partially right, or totally off base?

Some people believe John implies in 1 John 1:6-10 that anyone who believes they have "reached the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" (HP 146) is a liar and the truth is not in them. They assume John is saying nobody can be free from sin, this side of glory, since sin is also a state of being.

In my previous post I quoted Ellen comparing the righteousness of Christ and the righteousness of saints. Both are of the same origin. Both are the result of combining sinful human nature and sinless divine nature.

Most people are unwilling to say Jesus' righteousness was unacceptable to the Father, therefore, and for the same reasons, they should be able to say the righteousness of saints is also acceptable to the Father.

A: Yes, we are to be perfect. But our perfection is not acceptable as is; it must be covered by Christ's blood.

M: This is the crux of the question, eh! I have yet to read in the Bible or the SOP where this view of experiential righteousness is supported. I have read where such righteousness is the result of Jesus shedding His blood for us on the cross. But I have not read where it is unacceptable to the Father.

A: We'll get to the 1SM 344 below. But here's one you quoted earlier: "Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2} Christ's character stands in place of your character. She didn't say, "your character is just like Christ's character." In fact, the DA quote says that it is possible for those who are abiding in Christ to have a faulty character. Jesus didn't have a faulty character.

M: PS - Even the famous quote in 1SM 344 does not say the fruits of combining the human and divine natures yields righteousness which is unacceptable to God. Listen:

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned. {1SM 344.2} (emphasis by Arnold)

A: That quote is referring to "true believers" in Christ. We are agreed so far, I assume. And as true believers, they fulfill 1Jn 3:9 - they do not sin. Do we agree here? So what is the "corrupt channels of humanity" that true believers have, and the "taint of earthly corruption" that Jesus doesn't have?

A: It is the condition of sinlessness described in 1Jn 3:9. Those who are born of God do not and cannot sin. That applies to all who are born of God, whether a newbie or a veteran, a savage or a scholar. But it is a sinlessness that does not negate 1Jn 1:8, 10.

M: Again, amen! However, I suspect you have a different interpretation of 1 John 1:6-10 than I do. I suspect you, like others, take it to mean we can never be truly free from sin, that sin is so systemic that we will always, in one way or another, sin, and that this condition of sinfulness will continue to taint everything we do until the day Jesus returns and replaces our sinful flesh with sinless flesh. Of course, this theory assumes sin is a state of doing as well as a state of being. Are my suspicions of your interpretation of 1 John 1:6-10 right, partially right, or totally off base?

A: They are at least partially right. Sin is a state of being as well as a state of doing. On top of that, it is also a state of thinking. I suspect that you define sin in a way that excludes a state of being. Every postlapsarian I know does. Am I right? If we take that definition, many verses fall into place. But then, Saul the Pharisee would also have been fine.

Now, we want to understand what sin is--that it is the transgression of God's law. This is the only definition given in the Scriptures. {FW 56.1}

Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government. {GC 492.2}

What is to bring the sinner to the knowledge of his sins unless he knows what sin is? The only definition of sin in the Word of God is given us in 1 John 3:4. "Sin is the transgression of the law." {OHC 141.3}

The only definition we find in the Bible for sin is that "sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). {1SM 320.1}

Sin is the transgression of the law." This is the only definition of sin. Without the law there can be no transgression. {7BC 951.3}

M: Some people believe John implies in 1 John 1:6-10 that anyone who believes they have "reached the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" (HP 146) is a liar and the truth is not in them. They assume John is saying nobody can be free from sin, this side of glory, since sin is also a state of being.

A: Not necessarily. It depends on what you think that "condition of sinlessness" is. None of the prophets or apostles ever claimed to be sinless. Men who have lived the closest to God confessed the sinfulness of their natures.

He has borne our sins, in order that through Him we might have moral excellence, and attain unto the perfection of Christian character. {AG 195.5}

So perfect is the character represented which men must have in order to be Christ's disciples that the infidel has said that it is not possible for any human being to attain unto it. But no less a standard must be presented by all who claim to be children of God. Infidels know not that celestial aid is provided for all who seek for it by faith. Every provision has been made in behalf of every soul who shall seek to be a partaker of the divine nature and be complete in Jesus Christ. Every defect is to be discerned and cut away from the character with an unsparing decision. {HP 201.2}

It is natural for us to think more highly of ourselves than we ought to think; but although it is painful for us to know ourselves as we really are, yet we should pray that God will reveal us to ourselves, even as He sees us. But we should not cease to pray when we have simply asked for a revelation of ourselves; we should pray that Jesus may be revealed to us as a sin-pardoning Saviour. When we see Jesus as He is, earnest desires should awaken in our hearts to be rid of self, that we may be filled with all the fullness of Christ. When this is our experience, we shall do good to one another, and use all the means within our reach to attain unto godliness. We must cleanse our souls from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, and perfect holiness in the fear of God. {1SM 312.5}

There are many who profess Christ, but who never become mature Christians. They admit that man is fallen, that his faculties are weakened, that he is unfitted for moral achievement, but they say that Christ has borne all the burden, all the suffering, all the self-denial, and they are willing to let Him bear it. They say that there is nothing for them to do but to believe; but Christ said, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" (Matt. 16:24). {1SM 313.3}

I suspect that you define sin in a way that excludes a state of being. Every postlapsarian I know does. Am I right?

Sin is in every fiber of our being by nature. We are born in sin, and our life is sin, so that sin can not be taken from us without taking our life. What I need is freedom from my own personal sin,--that sin which not only has been committed by me personally, but which dwells in the heart,--the sin which constitutes the whole of my life. (The Glad Tidings)

M: In my previous post I quoted Ellen comparing the righteousness of Christ and the righteousness of saints. Both are of the same origin. Both are the result of combining sinful human nature and sinless divine nature.

A: But not combining the sinless divine nature with the sinful human corruption.

Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. {4BC 1147.4}

Christ's life represents a perfect manhood. Just that which you may be, He was in human nature. He took our infirmities. He was not only made flesh, but He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. {5BC 1124.2}

Jesus is the perfect pattern, and it is the duty and privilege of every child and youth to copy the pattern. Let children bear in mind that the child Jesus had taken upon Himself human nature, and was in the likeness of sinful flesh, and was tempted of Satan as all children are tempted. {SD 128.2}

By holiness in the daily life we are to reveal Christ to those around us. Corrupt human nature is to be subdued, not exalted. Thus only can we become pure and undefiled. We are to be humble, faithful men and women. {8T 234.2}

He who was once a sinful human being may be refined and purified through the imparted merits of Christ, and stand before his fellow men as a laborer together with God. {TDG 151.4}

The higher attributes of His being it is our privilege to have, if we will, through the provisions He has made, appropriate these blessings and diligently cultivate the good in the place of the evil. We have reason, conscience, memory, will, affections--all the attributes a human being can possess. Through the provision made when God and the Son of God made a covenant to rescue man from the bondage of Satan, every facility was provided that human nature should come into union with His divine nature. In such a nature was our Lord tempted. {3SM 130.2}

M: Most people are unwilling to say Jesus' righteousness was unacceptable to the Father, therefore, and for the same reasons, they should be able to say the righteousness of saints is also acceptable to the Father.

A: It is, if we agree that it is Christ's righteousness imputed, not imparted. Imparted righteousness has its place, but not here. Our title to heaven is 100% imputed righteousness. That's taught in 1SM 344.

We aim too low. The mark is much higher. Our minds need expansion, that we may comprehend the significance of the provision of God. We are to reflect the highest attributes of the character of God. . . . The law of God is the exalted standard to which we are to attain through the imputed righteousness of Christ. (OHC 364;ellipsis original)

The righteousness of Christ laid upon us will draw upon us the most precious blessings in this life, and will bestow upon us everlasting life in the kingdom of God. (OHC 78; the context is dealing with imputed righteousness)

Righteousness of Christ imputed to men means holiness, uprightness, purity.(Testimonies on Sexual Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce, page 134)

The redemption that was wrought out for us by our Lord on the cross of Calvary was to bring us to obedience to the law of God, making it possible, through His righteousness imputed to us, to keep the law of God. (The Upward Look, 209)

Justification is the reward of faith in the righteousness of Christ. His imputed righteousness brings everyone who accepts Him as a personal Saviour into conformity to the will of God. (MR 18, p. 96)

Only the covering which Christ Himself has provided can make us meet to appear in God's presence. This covering, the robe of His own righteousness, Christ will put upon every repenting, believing soul. "I counsel thee," He says, "to buy of me . . . white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed. . . ." Revelation 3:18.

This robe, woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising. Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." Isaiah 64:6. Everything that we of ourselves can do is defiled by sin. But the Son of God "was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." Sin is defined to be "the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:5, 4. But Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. . . .

By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.

Those who . . . accept of Christ are looked upon by God, not as they are in Adam, but as they are in Jesus Christ, as the sons and daughters of God. (FILB 113; ellipsis original)

It is the righteousness of Christ that makes the penitent sinner acceptable to God and works his justification. However sinful has been his life, if he believes in Jesus as his personal Saviour, he stands before God in the spotless robes of Christ's imputed righteousness. {FW 106.1}

The great work that is wrought for the sinner who is spotted and stained by evil is the work of justification. By Him who speaketh truth he is declared righteous. The Lord imputes unto the believer the righteousness of Christ and pronounces him righteous before the universe. {1SM 392.2}

Christ imputes His perfection and righteousness to the believing sinner when he does not continue in sin, but turns from transgression to obedience of the commandments. {FLB 115.3}

To those who believe in Christ as their personal Saviour, He imputes His merit and imparts His power. {TMK 288.4}

He imparts to the humble, contrite soul that faith in Christ by which he is justified. {CT 242.3}

Those who receive Christ as a sin-pardoning Saviour are clothed with His garments of light. He takes away their sin and imparts to them His righteousness. {CME 26.3}

The Lord Jesus imparts all the powers, all the grace, all the penitence, all the inclination, all the pardon of sins, in presenting His righteousness for man to grasp by living faith--which is also the gift of God. {FW 24.1}

Let the human agent compare his life with the life of Christ, and through the grace which Jesus imparts to those who make Him their personal Saviour, reach the standard of righteousness. {AG 236.4}

Obedience is the condition of gaining eternal life. Christ imparts His righteousness to those who consent to let Him take away their sins. We are indebted to Christ for the grace which makes us complete in Him. {7BC 971.9}

Our Leader goes before us, and as we follow Him, He imparts to us His righteousness, which is revealed in our lives by a well-ordered life and a godly conversation. {TDG 262.3}

Through the righteousness that He imparts, you may escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. {TDG 304.4}

To be justified means to be pardoned. To those whom God justifies He imputes Christ's righteousness, for the Saviour has taken away our sin. We stand before the throne of God justified and sanctified. We are emptied of self, and, through the sanctification of the truth, Christ abides in our hearts. {TDG 358.4}

Christ does not clothe sin with His righteousness, but He removes the sin, and in its place He imputes His own righteousness. When your sin is cleansed, the righteousness of Christ goes before you, and the glory of the Lord is your rearward. {RC 213.3}

True religion is nothing short of conformity to the will of God, and obedience to all things that He has commanded; and in return, it gives us spiritual life, imputes to us the righteousness of Christ, and promotes the healthful and happy exercise of the best faculties of the mind and heart. {3SM 150.4}

By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.

Those who . . . accept of Christ are looked upon by God, not as they are in Adam, but as they are in Jesus Christ, as the sons and daughters of God. (FILB 113; Ellipsis original)

MM, I'm a bit confused. I provided a series of quotes from EGW dealing with imputed righteousness, and you said I seemed to think that Christ's imputed righteousness empowers believes to obey the law. Why did you say this?

What do you think of this quote:

"By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.

Those who . . . accept of Christ are looked upon by God, not as they are in Adam, but as they are in Jesus Christ, as the sons and daughters of God. (FILB 113; Ellipsis original)