The people of God
Many Christians believes that they are the people of God. But there are so many denominations with specifics teachings and doctrines.
Is this true, according to the Scripture, that Christians automatically are the people of God, or is there a specific criteria to be called as the people of God?
In is love
James S
Is a Catholic a people of God?
In His love
James S
Posted By: Steve Claborn
Re: The people of God - 09/21/06 04:50 PM
define people of God..... I would submit that if God created or takes care of something he created, it would make that creation "His." Thus all people belong to God.... in fact all creation belongs to Him....
Posted By: Daryl
Re: The people of God - 09/22/06 11:23 PM
Seeing that this topic was posted in the Bible Study forum, I took this as the beginning of a new Bible Study, therefore, what does the Bible say about the people of God?
Definetely, the people of God are those who enter heaven and have the right to the fruit of life.
In His love
James S
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: The people of God - 09/24/06 05:17 PM
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/24/06 05:42 PM
Of course, in one sense everyone, whether sinner or saint, is a person of God. But God makes a distinction between those who are chosen and those who are not. The chosen people of God in the last days, according to the Revelation, is the Seventh-day Adventist church. We are commissioned by God to call people out of Babylon (i.e., catholic and protestant churches) into the SDA church.
1 Peter
2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Genesis
6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
John
1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Romans
8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Philippians
2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1 John
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Revelation
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The people of God - 09/24/06 06:46 PM
Mike
Surely you see that your last post is an exercise in prooftexting. The quotes when read in context are not talking about the same thing as your start comment.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/24/06 10:42 PM
The people of God are those who know Him.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/25/06 12:58 AM
Thomas, do you disagree with the idea that God makes a distinction between those who are chosen and those who are not? And, do you disagree with the idea that the SDA church is God's chosen people in these last days?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: The people of God - 09/25/06 01:50 AM
The SDA Church is made up of God's chosen people, but then God's chosen people also are in Babylon, otherwise, what would be the sense of calling them out of Babylon?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/25/06 03:22 AM
Daryl, they do not become "chosen" until after they join the church. There is a difference between "my people" and His "chosen people". The SDA is the chosen people.
Revelation
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Psalm
33:12 Blessed [is] the nation whose God [is] the LORD; [and] the people [whom] he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
Deuteronomy
14:2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth.
Titus
2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
1 Peter
2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/25/06 04:28 AM
We're confusing terms here, it looks to me. The SDA church is God's denominated people. There's a visible church and an invisible church. The invisible church is constituted by those who are converted, those who know God. These are they who spend eternity with God in heaven and the new earth.
The visible body was originally Israel, and then became the church. Just as in the time of Israel, not all they that were of Israel were of Israel, so now not all that are in the denominated body are really His, and conversely the major part of God's true followers, His chosen people, are not to be found among the denominated body.
I'm not aware of any Scripture which refers to the SDA church as God's chosen people. I think it's true that the Laodecian message is primarily directed to the SDA church, as it best fits the description of lukewarm, and think it is rich and increased with goods, when its true condision is something else altogether. So there is a Scriptural basis for viewing the SDA church as "lukewarm"; I think a case could made for that.
It's ironic, however, that most SDA's deny this (that they are lukewarm).
Quote.
It's ironic, however, that most SDA's deny this (that they are lukewarm).
Unquote.
I agree with you Tom, at least I admit that I am still lukewarm, till now.
But, anyway, I know that I do not want to finish it with lukewarm.
In His love
James S
Surely the people of God are those "sheeps" placed at Christ right hand at his second coming at the end of this world.
In His love
James S
Quote.
The people of God are those who know Him.
Unquote.
Not quite well! Some one may know God, but preffer to live for the flesh.
In His love
James S
Quote.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Unquote.
You got it! I like this, the saints of course are the people of God. The question is: How to become a saint?
In His love
James S
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/25/06 06:10 AM
Quote.
The people of God are those who know Him.
Unquote.
Not quite well! Some one may know God, but preffer to live for the flesh.
Jesus said, "To know God is eternal life." (John 17:3). One cannot know God and live for the flesh.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/25/06 06:13 AM
I agree with you Tom, at least I admit that I am still lukewarm, till now.
If you come to the point that you think of yourself as being OK, that could be a problem. It's like the pharisee and the publican. The pharisee thought he was OK, and prided himself that he wasn't like the publican. The publican asked for mercy, and received it. It is those who think they can see who do not receive the eye salve.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The people of God - 09/25/06 09:30 AM
Quote:
Thomas, do you disagree with the idea that God makes a distinction between those who are chosen and those who are not? And, do you disagree with the idea that the SDA church is God's chosen people in these last days?
I agree that God will make a distinction between the chosen and not chosen as groups in the end. In the mean time rain and sunshine falls on both groups. Then the individual relationships between people and God also makes a difference, individually.
I disagree that God will make any distinction whatever based on membership in any of our denominations, wether it be SDA or UP or RC.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The people of God - 09/25/06 09:35 AM
Quote:
Daryl, they do not become "chosen" until after they join the church. There is a difference between "my people" and His "chosen people". The SDA is the chosen people.
Revelation
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Psalm
33:12 Blessed [is] the nation whose God [is] the LORD; [and] the people [whom] he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
You arent arguing that Gods people in babylon will have no part in the inheritance are you? Like a first and secound class society in heaven with SDAs as the future burgeosis? 
Quote:
Deuteronomy
14:2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth.
Titus
2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
1 Peter
2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
To claim that these texts refer to SDA exclusively is, well, an area of disagreement between us...
Quote.
Jesus said, "To know God is eternal life." (John 17:3). One cannot know God and live for the flesh.
Unquote.
So, what is the meaning of "knowing" God?
In His love
James S
Quote.
I disagree that God will make any distinction whatever based on membership in any of our denominations, wether it be SDA or UP or RC.
Unquote.
I agree with you, I don’t think that the people of God is a denomination, because at the end there are only two groups, sheep and goat, saints and the wicked. People of God consist' of individuals.
Is there a possibility that SDA church as a denomination / organization might become Babylon and hunting her members because at last she gives up her beliefs and faiths?
In His love
James S
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/25/06 04:55 PM
Again, I agree every human being, alive and dead, saved and lost, are people of God, but the title - "the" people of God - refers exclusively, in these last days (since 1844), to the SDA church.
Between now and the close of probation people will be saved or lost based on whether or not they live up to the light they believe to be true. This, of course, includes people within and without the SDA church.
However, during the loud cry of the later rain, during the mark of the beast crisis, anyone who rejects the three angel’s messages is lost. Also, anyone who refuses to join the SDA church during this time is lost.
Again, “the” people of God, that is, God’s chosen remnant people, as described in Rev 12:17, is none other than the SDA church. God is not describing a remnant “person” in Rev 12:17; instead, He is describing “the” remnant people, “the” remnant church – “the” SDA church.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/25/06 05:44 PM
MM, a couple of questions. First of all, where do you get the idea that a person will be lost if they do not join the SDA church? I've never heard that idea before, and I've been an SDA a long time.
Secondly, there was no SDA church in 1844, or 1854 for that matter, so how could the people of God refer exclusively to a church which didn't exist?
Finally, where do you get the idea that "people of God" refers exclusively to SDA's at *any* period of time?
This idea of exclusivity is the same lack of perspective the Jews suffered from. God has never been exclusive. Whosoever will may come. Whether or not we are of God depends upon our relationship with Christ, not on church membership or nationality.
What we can say is that the Jews, or SDA's today, are God's denominiated, or visible, people. God's true people are those who know Him, regardless of denomination.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/25/06 05:47 PM
Quote:
So, what is the meaning of "knowing" God?
Good question, James!
I think my short answer would be that knowing God means to know Him intimately, to be "one flesh" with Him, so to speak. I'll quote a Spirit of Prophecy statement which presents the concept, although using a different metaphor:
When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. (COL 312)
I think this expresses the idea well.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The people of God - 09/25/06 06:36 PM
I agree with Toms post to Mike, although with some questions about the first sentence of the last paragraph. The example from the history of Israel from the bible show with all due clarity that being Gods denominated people doesnt say anything at all about the individuals relationships with God. Israel of old seemed to spend more time in rebellion against God than in living out their position as Gods people on earth.
If that position is today inherited by SDA?
I once heard the purpose of the SDA church, its reason for existence if one wills, explained in a way that can be compared with the mission John the Baptist had in introducing Jesus first comming. Noteworthy of course is that this while truly being an important task didnt make John and his diciples an elite or secure specific priviliges for them. John being imprissoned, doubting and ending at the sharp end of a executioners ax or sword...
Then the comparasion that I think seems closer to the one more often heard is the general public of Jesus day Israel or maybe the Jews of today. A self image of a people whom will soon end up lords and masters of all the heathen nations around. The messiah will come and lead us in toppling Caesar in Rome and then we will rule the world. And rule it we shall. Anyway...
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/26/06 04:59 AM
The SDA church is the only church in the history of the world that God has raised up to poclaim the three angel's messages, to call people out of Babylon. The SDA church is the only church in the world that is not a part of Babylon. All other churches are Babylonian.
FLB 282
God has a church upon the earth, who are His chosen people, who keep His commandments. He is leading, not stray offshoots, not one here and one there, but a people. {FLB 282.2}
UL 315
God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. {UL 315.5}
LDE 45, 46
The Lord has made us the depositaries of His law; He has committed to us sacred and eternal truth, which is to be given to others in faithful warnings, reproofs, and encouragement.--5T 381 (1885). {LDE 45.1}
Seventh-day Adventists have been chosen by God as a peculiar people, separate from the world. By the great cleaver of truth He has cut them out from the quarry of the world and brought them into connection with Himself. He has made them His representatives and has called them to be ambassadors for Him in the last work of salvation. The greatest wealth of truth ever entrusted to mortals, the most solemn and fearful warnings ever sent by God to man, have been committed to them to be given to the world.--7T 138 (1902). {LDE 45.2}
In a special sense Seventh-day Adventists have been set in the world as watchmen and light bearers. To them has been entrusted the last warning for a perishing world. On them is shining wonderful light from the Word of God. They have been given a work of the most solemn import--the proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages. There is no other work of so great importance. They are to allow nothing else to absorb their attention.--9T 19 (1909). {LDE 45.3}
2SM 66
God is leading out a people. He has a chosen people, a church on the earth, whom He has made the depositaries of His law. He has committed to them sacred trust and eternal truth to be given to the world. {2SM 66.2}
TM 20
God has a church, a chosen people; and could all see as I have seen how closely Christ identifies Himself with His people, no such message would be heard as the one that denounces the church as Babylon. God has a people who are laborers together with Him, and they have gone straight forward, having His glory in view. {TM 20.1}
TM 49, 50
Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin. The church, enfeebled and defective, needing to be reproved, warned, and counseled, is the only object upon earth upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard. … {TM 49.1}
God has a church on earth who are lifting up the downtrodden law, and presenting to the world the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world. The church is the depositary of the wealth of the riches of the grace of Christ, and through the church eventually will be made manifest the final and full display of the love of God to the world that is to be lightened with its glory. The prayer of Christ that His church may be one as He was one with His Father will finally be answered. The rich dowry of the Holy Spirit will be given, and through its constant supply to the people of God they will become witnesses in the world of the power of God unto salvation. {TM 50.1}
There is but one church in the world who are at the present time standing in the breach, and making up the hedge, building up the old waste places; and for any man to call the attention of the world and other churches to this church, denouncing her as Babylon, is to do a work in harmony with him who is the accuser of the brethren. … {TM 50.2}
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: The people of God - 09/26/06 05:28 AM
Quote:
Quote:
So, what is the meaning of "knowing" God?
Good question, James!
I think my short answer would be that knowing God means to know Him intimately, to be "one flesh" with Him, so to speak.
A short answer would be that knowing God means to know Him intimately, to be "one in spirit" with Him.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/26/06 06:15 AM
Mike, the quotes you presented are dealing with SDA's as a visible, corporate group, aren't they? God has risen up a corporate body whose purose is to make known His character, to prepare the way for the coming of Christ. Our job is to proclaim the Gospel. This is a corporate work, of which we take part as individuals.
You wrote that since 1844 that the "people of God" refers exclusively to the SDA church, but there was no SDA church in 1844 and for years thereafter, so how could what you are asserting be true?
What evidence is there that one must join the SDA church to be saved?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The people of God - 09/26/06 10:09 AM
An EllenW compilation of prooftexts? Ehm? Ok...
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/26/06 05:29 PM
TE: Mike, the quotes you presented are dealing with SDA's as a visible, corporate group, aren't they? God has risen up a corporate body whose purose is to make known His character, to prepare the way for the coming of Christ. Our job is to proclaim the Gospel. This is a corporate work, of which we take part as individuals.
MM: Amen. The SDA church, not any other church, is God’s appointed people, in these last days, to restore the breach, to glorify God, to proclaim the three angel’s messages, to prepare the world to meet their Maker. God is not working through any other church to accomplish these things. In fact, one of God’s main goals for the SDA church is to call His people out of the Babylonian churches.
TE: You wrote that since 1844 that the "people of God" refers exclusively to the SDA church, but there was no SDA church in 1844 and for years thereafter, so how could what you are asserting be true?
MM: True, the chosen people of God were not officially called SDAs, nevertheless, the movement, which later on adopted the name SDA, is God’s chosen church.
TE: What evidence is there that one must join the SDA church to be saved?
MM: Again, by the time probation closes anyone who has refused to join the SDA church is lost. The only people who will be translated alive when Jesus returns are those people who received the seal of God, who refused to receive the mark of the beast. Through the SDA church God is calling people out of the non-SDA churches to become members of the SDA church. Anyone who refuses to become a SDA is in danger of committing the unpardonable sin. If they persist in refusing to become a member of the SDA church after probation closes they are lost.
Evidence? Revelation 12:17 and 14:6-12 and 18:1-5. The SDA church is God’s appointed agency to call people out of the Babylonian churches. Anyone who refuses to heed the call is refusing the voice and authority of Jesus Christ. When a believer responds to the call to come out of Babylon, Jesus does not leave them homeless; instead, He calls them out of Babylon into the remnant church, His chosen people – the SDA church.
Of course, there are millions of people who, as of yet, have not heard the call to come out of Babylon. The SDA church has not yet reached everyone everywhere with the gospel. There are, nevertheless, people in the Babylonian churches who God refers to as “His people”. They are His people in the sense that they are living up to the light He has revealed to them, but they are not His people in the corporate sense. He has not entrusted them with the testing truths for these last days. However, should they die before they hear the call to come out of Babylon they are saved.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/26/06 05:31 PM
Quote:
An EllenW compilation of prooftexts? Ehm? Ok...
Thomas, do you disagree with Sister White's application of the Bible texts that help identify the remnant church and its mission and message?
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/26/06 06:06 PM
MM, you are sounding like a Catholic to me. We don't believe that grace or truth is dispenced by a church, but by God. We are Protestants.
It's true that God is using the SDA church for the purpose of preparing the world for the coming of Christ, but there is no necessity that one become a member of the SDA church to be saved, at any time. The requirement is to know God, by faith in Christ. It's the same requirement there has always been, because to know God *is* eternal life. Not simply the way to obtain it, but it is eternal life. Those who have the Son have life. Those who have not the Son have not life.
Another point to keep in mind is that God is not working exclusively through the SDA church. There are many statements from the SOP that if we drop the ball, God will work through other means to fulfill His purposes. There are those through whom God is working now, who are not SDA's.
At some point the wonderful truth about God will be seen, that He really is like Jesus Christ, and all those who seek for and believe this truth will unite.
Btw, I share your conviction that the SDA church will in the end fulfill its mission. That is, there are some who believe we will have to flee the church in order to be saved at some point in the future, but she speaks of the church being awakened to its condition and repenting, which I believe will happen. Someday we will see ourselves as God sees us, and that will open the door to repentance. Until then, God patiently waits, while we remain blind, rejecting the offered eye salve.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The people of God - 09/26/06 08:29 PM
Quote:
Quote:
An EllenW compilation of prooftexts? Ehm? Ok...
Thomas, do you disagree with Sister White's application of the Bible texts that help identify the remnant church and its mission and message?
Mike, as you perhaps are aware, I misstrust compilations. Simply becourse taking things out of contest reflects the mind of the compiler and not the original author, whomever that may be. Notice that I pointed out the bible text compilation you made earlier in this thread aswell. Before I can say anything about what Ellen tried to write trough the texts you cut and paste from Id have to read them in context. Maybe Ill do that if I have some free time... sometime... in the future...
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The people of God - 09/26/06 08:39 PM
Again I agree with Tom. Salvation and membership in the SDA church are two completely separate thing. Have allways been so and will always be so.
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/26/06 10:32 PM
Quote:
Simply becourse taking things out of contest reflects the mind of the compiler and not the original author, whomever that may be.
This is a good point. I don't think I've thought of this precise point, that a compilation must of necessity be reflecting the mind of the complier. This would be true no matter how careful the complier was not to take things out of context. This is because the simple fact of organizing the texts of itself creates a context; the mind of the compiler is being reflected, as you aptly put it.
Of course this same principle applies regardless of the subject. Whenever we discuss anything, our minds are being reflected, rather than the mind of whomever we are discussing.
How is it that we can faithfully represent the mind of Christ? That's the question!
Posted By: Steve Claborn
Re: The people of God - 09/27/06 02:14 AM
interesting indeed....
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/27/06 04:34 AM
Becoming a SDA church member is synonymous with becoming a member of the Remnant church portrayed in prophecy. It requires responding to the call to come out of Babylon into the SDA church.
Anybody who refused to come out of Judaism into the Early Church risked losing their salvation. The same is true during the closing scenes of Earth’s history. Anyone who refuses to come out of Babylon into the SDA church is treading on dangerous ground.
Revelation
18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Again, anyone who refuses to heed the calling to come out of Babylon into the SDA church during the time frame described above will be lost. Nothing can be more obvious.
1. Or, do you believe God is using members of one or more of the Babylonian churches to call people out of Babylon as described in Rev 18?
2. Do you believe God has entrusted one or more of the Babylonian churches with proclaiming the 3AMs?
3. Are there individual members within the various Babylonian churches that are also proclaiming the 3AMs?
Mike.
I think the bible said that the people of God are those who has the righteousness of Christ in them witnessed by the law and the prophets. Is this a condition that only the SDA church could fulfill?
In His love
James S
If it is only a condition that SDA church could fulfill thanks to their doctrines, even though depends to their members on how they live, then when can we say, or is there a time limit, where all other people in all other denominations are counted loss if they do not joint the SDA church?
In His love
James S
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The people of God - 09/27/06 01:49 PM
Mike
If what you say is or will in the future be true. That a person must be member of the SDA church to be saved. Would it not the also follow that any person who in that time holds membership in SDA church would be saved?
You wrote:
Quote:
Becoming a SDA church member is synonymous with becoming a member of the Remnant church portrayed in prophecy. It requires responding to the call to come out of Babylon into the SDA church.
I would suggest that this is potentially heretical for the following reason. It removes salvation from the person of Jesus Christ to the Institution of the Seventh Day Adventist Church.
/Thomas
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The people of God - 09/27/06 02:02 PM
Quote:
Revelation
18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Again, anyone who refuses to heed the calling to come out of Babylon into the SDA church during the time frame described above will be lost. Nothing can be more obvious.
You are reading into the text. The call is to come out of Babylon. That this means going into the SDA church is something you either invented yourself or read somewhere thats not the bible.
Quote:
1. Or, do you believe God is using members of one or more of the Babylonian churches to call people out of Babylon as described in Rev 18?
I believe your definition of what a babylonian church is is, well, fishy (is that an appropriate word here?). I also believe that God is using those of His children who are not members of the SDA church to work for the Kingdom. Quote:
2. Do you believe God has entrusted one or more of the Babylonian churches with proclaiming the 3AMs?
As I suspect you are refering to denominations here, the responce has to be negative. However, I believe there are churches and individuals employed in churches within or without the different denominations who are.Quote:
3. Are there individual members within the various Babylonian churches that are also proclaiming the 3AMs?
As above.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/27/06 06:27 PM
JS: Mike, I think the bible said that the people of God are those who has the righteousness of Christ in them witnessed by the law and the prophets. Is this a condition that only the SDA church could fulfill?
James, here's what I posted on page one of this thread:
Quote:
Of course, in one sense everyone, whether sinner or saint, is a person of God. But God makes a distinction between those who are chosen and those who are not. The chosen people of God in the last days, according to the Revelation, is the Seventh-day Adventist church. We are commissioned by God to call people out of Babylon (i.e., catholic and protestant churches) into the SDA church.
So, yes, there are people outside the SDA church who are experiencing righteousness by faith. However, in the corporate sense, they are not members of God's chosen people, His chosen church.
Does that make sense to you?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/27/06 06:33 PM
JS: If it is only a condition that SDA church could fulfill thanks to their doctrines, even though depends to their members on how they live, then when can we say, or is there a time limit, where all other people in all other denominations are counted loss if they do not joint the SDA church?
MM: If people refuse to come out of the Baylonian churches before probation closes then they are lost. No one can ally themselves with the Remnant Church after probation closes.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/27/06 06:48 PM
Quote:
Anybody who refused to come out of Judaism into the Early Church risked losing their salvation.
The issue has to do with the acceptance or rejection of truth. Whether one joins a certain denomination is a symptom as to how one has responded to truth.
It's very difficult to know what form the SDA church will have at a time when there is massive persecution going on. It may not be possible to "join" the church in the sense that we traditionally think of it. However, one who is saved will be embracing the truth that will be being portrayed, which is the important point.
It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth....
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them.
The light of the Sun of Righteousness is to shine forth in good works--in words of truth and deeds of holiness. (COL 415, 416)
This explains the important things which are to happen. The final message is a revelation of God's character. This is what the Great Controversy is all about.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/27/06 06:50 PM
Thomas, being a member of the SDA church involves more than having ones name recorded in the church books, right? Isn't that how it has always been? Claiming to be a SDA is not the same as being one. Do you agree?
Romans
2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Also, do you really believe there are non-SDA people within the various Babylonian churches that are being led by God to call people out of the Babylonian churches? that know and understand the 3AMs? who are proclaiming the 3AMs?
As far as I know, the SDA church is the only church (or denomination) God has entrusted with the correct interpretation of the 3AMs. Therefore, I find it difficult to believe there are non-SDA Christians within the various Babylonian churches (or denominations) that are proclaiming the 3AMs, that is, the correct interpretation of the 3AMs.
If you know of someone outside the SDA church who is proclaiming the correct interpretation of the 3AMs, please quote them here. Thank you.
By the way, here is the SDA definition of Babylon:
GC 382, 38
Babylon is said to be "the mother of harlots." By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of sacrificing the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world. The message of Revelation 14, announcing the fall of Babylon must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church alone, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. Furthermore, in the eighteenth chapter of the Revelation the people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God's people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. At the time of their rise these churches took a noble stand for God and the truth, and His blessing was with them. Even the unbelieving world was constrained to acknowledge the beneficent results that followed an acceptance of the principles of the gospel. In the words of the prophet to Israel: "Thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through My comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God." But they fell by the same desire which was the curse and ruin of Israel--the desire of imitating the practices and courting the friendship of the ungodly. "Thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown." Ezekiel 16:14, 15. {GC 382.3}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/27/06 06:57 PM
TE: It's very difficult to know what form the SDA church will have at a time when there is massive persecution going on. It may not be possible to "join" the church in the sense that we traditionally think of it. However, one who is saved will be embracing the truth that will be being portrayed, which is the important point.
MM: Good point, Tom. The following insight suggests that people who reject the truth, who receive the MOB, believed they rejected the SDA message, which is, of course, the gospel. It seems reasonable to conclude, therefore, that if they had accepted the truth, received the SOD, that they would have somehow associated or identified themselves with "these Seventh-day Adventists".
MAR 290
The people who have braved out their rebellion will fulfill the description given in Revelation 6:15-17. In these very caves and dens they find the very statement of truth in the letters and in the publications as witness against them. The shepherds who lead the sheep in false paths will hear the charge made against them, "It was you who made light of truth. It was you who told us that God's law was abrogated, that it was a yoke of bondage. It was you who voiced the false doctrines when I was convicted that these Seventh-day Adventists had the truth. The blood of our souls is upon your priestly garments. . . . Now will you pay the ransom for my soul? . . . What shall we do who listened to your garbling of the Scriptures and your turning into a lie the truth which if obeyed would have saved us?" {Mar 290.3}
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The people of God - 09/28/06 12:19 AM
Quote:
Thomas, being a member of the SDA church involves more than having ones name recorded in the church books, right? Isn't that how it has always been? Claiming to be a SDA is not the same as being one. Do you agree?
Romans
2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
To be, um, finicky (never used that word before so hope its correct), Id think that you are bluring the line between the vissible organisation and the invissible body of Christ. The body of Christ being whomeever whereever that is saved while a member in the vissible body is whomever that managed to get a pastor or evangelist to baptise them. What you wrote fits with the body of Christ but Id not be to quick to call that body SDA. Quote:
Also, do you really believe there are non-SDA people within the various Babylonian churches that are being led by God to call people out of the Babylonian churches? that know and understand the 3AMs? who are proclaiming the 3AMs?
Well, for obvious reasons they are not preaching the 3 angles message in the way you described above, that leaving babylon by nessessity must also mean joining the SDA church. Noone could preach that without being an SDA while keeping any credibility. But if you remove the SDA exclusivist parts, then yes, I think you could find people preaching it. Quote:
As far as I know, the SDA church is the only church (or denomination) God has entrusted with the correct interpretation of the 3AMs. Therefore, I find it difficult to believe there are non-SDA Christians within the various Babylonian churches (or denominations) that are proclaiming the 3AMs, that is, the correct interpretation of the 3AMs.
As I said above, if the caveat "correct interpretation" implies as you did in posts above that in the end only members of the SDA church will be saved, then yes, you would be right. Otherwise, I think not.Quote:
If you know of someone outside the SDA church who is proclaiming the correct interpretation of the 3AMs, please quote them here. Thank you.
By the way, here is the SDA definition of Babylon:
GC 382, 38
Babylon is said to be "the mother of harlots." By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of sacrificing the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world. The message of Revelation 14, announcing the fall of Babylon must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church alone, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. Furthermore, in the eighteenth chapter of the Revelation the people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God's people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. At the time of their rise these churches took a noble stand for God and the truth, and His blessing was with them. Even the unbelieving world was constrained to acknowledge the beneficent results that followed an acceptance of the principles of the gospel. In the words of the prophet to Israel: "Thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through My comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God." But they fell by the same desire which was the curse and ruin of Israel--the desire of imitating the practices and courting the friendship of the ungodly. "Thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown." Ezekiel 16:14, 15. {GC 382.3}
Quote.
MM: If people refuse to come out of the Baylonian churches before probation closes then they are lost. No one can ally themselves with the Remnant Church after probation closes.
Unquote.
Is it really necessary to become a member of the SDA church in order to be saved in the last day, meanwhile many of those who are in the church would not be chosen?
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/28/06 05:00 AM
According to the SOP, the message of righteousness by faith which Jones and Waggoner preached was the "third angel's message in verity." Most SDA's have little or no idea what that message is. Merely being an SDA does not mean one knows the third angel's message.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/28/06 05:34 PM
JS: Is it really necessary to become a member of the SDA church in order to be saved in the last day, meanwhile many of those who are in the church would not be chosen?
MM: James, the “shaking” will purify and purge the Remnant Church during the MOB crisis. As a result of this “shaking” all of the unconverted, time serving SDAs will leave the church and join Babylon. Also, all of the people in Babylon will, during the final crisis, leave their church and join the SDA church. Anyone who leaves the SDA church during the MOB crisis will be lost, and anyone who refuses to leave Babylon and join the SDA church during the final crisis will be lost.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/28/06 05:39 PM
Tom, the 3AMs, in addition to righteousness by faith, also includes 1) informing people that the pre-advent, investigative judgment began in 1844, 2) calling people out of Babylon, and 3) warning people not to receive the MOB.
Thomas, do you know of anyone in the Babylonian churches who is preaching this interpretation of the 3AMs? Or, do you even agree with it?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The people of God - 09/28/06 06:15 PM
I think I have heard those points presented by non-sda preachers with the exceptions of the beginning date of 1844 and without the SDA exclusivist view of babylon and the sunday=MOB. But the preadvent judgement, calling out of babylon and warning of the MOB (whatever that implies).
Maybe you read my questions in the two last biblestudy threads concerning 1844? It seems that you might disagree with Colins replies. Give it a try.
Also, could you show from the bible that MOB=worship on sunday, exclusively? Ie that it refers to this choise of day and nothing more nor nothing less?
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/28/06 07:31 PM
Thomas, no one is fulfilling the prophecy regarding the 3AMs if they are preaching it differently than outlined in the SOP. The proof that the MOB is the enforcement of Sunday laws during the final crisis is spelled out clearly in the SOP. Do you disagree with the intepretation outlined therein?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The people of God - 09/28/06 07:42 PM
Mike
Of course only an SDA would preach that SDA is Gods solution for humanitys problems for the last age.
As for the MOB in SOP, its not that important what Ellen writes until we can establish what the bible teaches. Contrary to you, I still think the bible contains everything a human needs to read to be saved. I said it before and Ill repeat myself, if you cant make the case by the bible, it might be something but it wont be a salvation issue.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/28/06 09:32 PM
When I mentioned Jones and Waggoner, I had in mind the message of righteousness by faith which they taught. It was *that* message which the SOP called the light "which will lighten the earth with glory."
It is not just facts which will prepare the way for Christ to come, but a message of Christ and His righteousness. Knowing that the judgement began in 1844 won't save anyone. Knowing Jesus Christ will.
This isn't to say that the doctrines aren't important; they are. But they are important within a context. The context is the truth about God. The reason God brought up this movement was to teach the world the truth about Him. The purpose of the doctrines is that we might know Him more clearly, and share Him with others.
Posted By: Will
Re: The people of God - 09/29/06 04:48 AM
Mike,
Everything we believe is based on the Bible, this includes the MOB. If we are not able to prove our belief on the Holy Scriptures then there is a problem.
Thomas,
A couple of quick points as I have to get ready to leave, but in Revelation there is a decree or law that is enacted, or put in place to cause everyone to worship the image of the beast.
Consider the entire planet and all the differing religions, it sounds impossible actually, but these aren't regular events going on, Christ is going to be revealed, and the final stage for the Revelation of Jesus Christ is about to happen, so stuff going on against that happening to cause loss of life will be working.
Thats all I can type from memory. However it is Bible based, remember Protestant=Protesting+Papacy=Thinketh to Change times and laws+ Rock cut out without hands establish kingdom on earth, judgment in favor of saints, and given kingdom...ok off to the shower I go.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The people of God - 09/29/06 09:37 AM
Is sabbath the only "time" that has been changed and is the fourth commandment the only law that has been changed? If no, where does that leave this reasoning?
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/29/06 02:22 PM
The second commandment (idols) was removed and the last one made into two. Those are a couple of other changes to the law that are brought up.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The people of God - 09/29/06 02:58 PM
So the mark of the beast may have to do with images of God and coveting?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/29/06 07:13 PM
Thomas, I believe the SOP interpretation of prophecy is correct. I see no reason to duplicate it. I would simply cite the same sources. The Bible does not tell us what the MOB is. We have to figure that out for ourselves from the clues provided in the Bible. I agree with the conclusion God gave to Sister White. God's conclusion is based on historical facts and documentation.
Do you agree with the conclusion and interpretation God gave to Sister White?
Tom, the SOP provides a very balanced approach to prophecy. Do you agree that the SDA church is the only church that Jesus raised up to proclaim the truth about the 3AMs? Or, do you agree with Thomas that God is also proclaiming the 3AMs through various Babylonian churches?
Quote.
Daryl, they do not become "chosen" until after they join the church. There is a difference between "my people" and His "chosen people". The SDA is the chosen people.
JS: Is it really necessary to become a member of the SDA church in order to be saved in the last day, meanwhile many of those who are in the church would not be chosen?
MM: James, the “shaking” will purify and purge the Remnant Church during the MOB crisis. As a result of this “shaking” all of the unconverted, time serving SDAs will leave the church and join Babylon. Also, all of the people in Babylon will, during the final crisis, leave their church and join the SDA church. Anyone who leaves the SDA church during the MOB crisis will be lost, and anyone who refuses to leave Babylon and join the SDA church during the final crisis will be lost.
Unquote.
So, SDA’s members are not the chosen people of God, they are just the same as all other people of God scattered among other denominations. SDA’s members are those who were called, but the chosen are those who would enter heaven and live eternally.
The chosen people of God are those who has the righteousness of Christ in their heart witnessed by their life, they maybe a Catholic, a Protestant, a Pentecost, a Methodist, a Mormon, etc.
In His love
James S
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/29/06 10:09 PM
Quote:
So the mark of the beast may have to do with images of God and coveting?
I think it has to do with the law as a whole. The real question has to do with God's character. It is the message of His character which will be the final message of mercy to the world. Satan has misrepresented God's character in order to lead men into sin. When men believe the truth about God's character, that will lead to victory over sin.
Sin is transgression of the law. Not just the Sabbath.
Similarly the law is a transcript of God's character. So the controversy, the mark of the beast, must involve the whole law. If you break one, you break them all.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/29/06 10:11 PM
Quote:
Tom, the SOP provides a very balanced approach to prophecy. Do you agree that the SDA church is the only church that Jesus raised up to proclaim the truth about the 3AMs? Or, do you agree with Thomas that God is also proclaiming the 3AMs through various Babylonian churches?
I'm not sure you and Thomas are meaning the same things by 3AMs, so I'll refrain from commenting for the time being.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/29/06 10:13 PM
Quote:
The chosen people of God are those who has the righteousness of Christ in their heart witnessed by their life, they maybe a Catholic, a Protestant, a Pentecost, a Methodist, a Mormon, etc.
Another way of saying this is that those who are chosen are those who know God (in the sense Jesus spoke of in John 17:3).
There is a visible, or denominated church, as well as an invisible one. I sense there is some talking past each other going on here as some are speaking of one thing and some of another.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 09/29/06 10:16 PM
Quote:
James, the “shaking” will purify and purge the Remnant Church during the MOB crisis. As a result of this “shaking” all of the unconverted, time serving SDAs will leave the church and join Babylon. Also, all of the people in Babylon will, during the final crisis, leave their church and join the SDA church. Anyone who leaves the SDA church during the MOB crisis will be lost, and anyone who refuses to leave Babylon and join the SDA church during the final crisis will be lost.
I agree with this in spirit. However, I would say that in the final crisis, all of God's true followers were believe the message that is being proclaimed. That's the important thing. Not joining the church, but believing the message.
It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth.
This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isa. 40:9,10.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)
The message of a message of God's true character.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The people of God - 09/30/06 07:29 PM
TE: There is a visible, or denominated church, as well as an invisible one. I sense there is some talking past each other going on here as some are speaking of one thing and some of another.
MM: I’m sorry if I haven’t been more clear. Again, I believe the Remnant Church described in Rev 12:17 is the SDA church. It is God’s visible denominated church in these last days. It is the only church on earth that is fulfilling the prophecy of the 3AMs.
TE: I agree with this in spirit. However, I would say that in the final crisis, all of God's true followers were [will?] believe the message that is being proclaimed. That's the important thing. Not joining the church, but believing the message.
MM: During Pentecost God added to the church daily all those who believed the message. That was during the early rain. The same thing will happen during the latter rain. Again, when God commissions us to call “His people” out of the Babylonian churches He does not leave them homeless. Instead, He adds them to the church, the visible church, the SDA church. During the final crisis those who receive and support the MOB will persecute Sabbath keepers as SDAs – not merely as troublemakers.
MAR 290
The people who have braved out their rebellion will fulfill the description given in Revelation 6:15-17. In these very caves and dens they find the very statement of truth in the letters and in the publications as witness against them. The shepherds who lead the sheep in false paths will hear the charge made against them, "It was you who made light of truth. It was you who told us that God's law was abrogated, that it was a yoke of bondage. It was you who voiced the false doctrines when I was convicted that these Seventh-day Adventists had the truth. The blood of our souls is upon your priestly garments. . . . Now will you pay the ransom for my soul? . . . What shall we do who listened to your garbling of the Scriptures and your turning into a lie the truth which if obeyed would have saved us?" {Mar 290.3}
One thing I am sure, that the people of God are those saints who keep the commandment of God with the faith of Jesus, those who has the righteousness of God fulfilled in them by the Spirit because they walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.
Before probation close, I believe these saints came from all denominations, but after probation close, the saints are only those people of God, the Remnant of her seed. I am not sure whether this is inclusive SDA's church and its members or are there still people who do not joint the church but are the remnant of her seed too, keeping the commandments of God with the faith of Jesus.
In His love
James S
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 10/01/06 10:23 AM
MM, I'm not aware of any statements saying the things you are asserting (that those proclaiming the truth will be persecuted as SDA's). Are you aware of any?
I'm not sure there will be a structure in place that will permit the joining of the SDA church, at least as we traditionally think of it. If people are fleeing to the mountains, how do join the church? One could be baptized, of course, but will people be joining the SDA church of the mountain?
I think the important thing to focus on is the message. That's what's going to be driving things, not church membership.
What is more important? To become the people of God or to become a member of the SDA church? I think if we say to some one you must become a SDA member in order to be saved, our church would go empty, and people would think we are teaching heresy.
Therefore, the true definition of people of God is more important than a membership.
In His love
James S
We are talking about who are the people of God; they are those who know God according to Tom E, they are those who keep the commandments of God with the faith of Jesus according to Rosangela and me, they are the members of the SDA’s church according to M.M, I think we may say also that they are those lambs who stands at Christ right hand at his second coming, they who loved their neighbors (Matthew 25:31-40).
Since the principle of heaven is based on the character of God, his agape love, we know that our fitness for heaven is having this love in our hearts.
How could we get our fitness for heaven, the agape love of God in our hearts?
In His love
James S
Posted By: Tom
Re: The people of God - 10/04/06 09:32 PM
What I pointed out is that God has a denominated, or visible, body and an invisible one. The invisible one is constituted by those how know God. The description "those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" could either be visible or invisible; you'd have to clarify your meaning. If you have in mind the visible body, that would be the SDA church, wouldn't it? MM's quotes would come into play here. As EGW puts it, "What other group of people can you point to" etc.
In terms of salvation, what matters is knowing God. To know God is to love Him, and love is the fulling of the law. Therefore those who know God will keep His commandments and have the faith of Jesus.