Where Really Are The Dead?

Posted By: Daryl

Where Really Are The Dead? - 01/21/03 05:07 AM

Where really are the dead?

Why is this such an important question?

I ask this question as I just heard on an "It Is Written" telecast that one in every three Americans believe they have communicated with the dead.

Does the Bible have a clear answer to such an important question?

If so, then why are so many in error in their answer to this question?
Posted By: Edward F Sutton

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 01/23/03 06:08 PM

Where are the Dead according to the Bible ?


Job 14:
7 ¶ For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Until God calls the dead, they stay where ever they are put by the living.
Posted By: Edward F Sutton

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 01/23/03 06:30 PM

A day was forseen by Isaiah, when other lords than God would seek to rule oner all the people of Earth. It would be during that time that God would behgin to pour His direct judgements upon the peoples of Earth.

Those false lords would be slain, and them that remained; stripped of their power while awaiting His visitation. Earth then shall be warned by God's living servants who obey Him.

A special ressurection will be brought to pass and notible saints and sinners shall stand awaiting to see Him come, some to see shame; and some to see honour.

Earth will have been warned and seperated into the honest and loyal and the self-seeking and traitors. He will return in all their sight, and all the loyal dead shall hear his world cracking globe encircling shout, they shall then rise from where-ever they laid in death - now dead no more forever. They will rise to meet Him in the clouds, then the loyal who were still living rise. All the rest are dead and unburied upon the frozen Earth for 1000 years till the final accounting.

Isaiah 26:

9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.


13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.
14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.


19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 ¶ Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/03/03 02:07 AM

The fact is that the bible indicates that there is no communication between those dead and the living. However, that doesn’t mean that a persons soul or spirit cannot go to heaven or hell.

Jesus taught a distinction between the body and soul:

“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matt 10:28


Paul understood that the soul can be away from the body in heaven:

“1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.” 2 Cor 5

So we see that scripture indicates that the soul can a does exist away from the body.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/03/03 04:03 AM

[Thank You] Welcome, Lobo, to Maritime SDA OnLine. [Thank You]

I think you would agree that we can't base a doctrine on one or two Bible texts that seems to be telling us something, therefore, let me ask you a couple of questions:

1 - Does the Bible ever contradict Itself?

2 - Have you searched the whole Bible, both the Old and the New Testaments, on this topic?

In other words, I challenge you to look up any verse that deals with the topic of death, dead, etc. and share what you find with us here.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/03/03 08:34 PM

Daryl,
Thank you for the warm welcome, I appreciate it.

To answer your questions, I agree one text does not a doctrine make. And I have studied this in both the old and new testaments. And to be honest, I don’t think the issue is crystal clear no matter what your position.

There are many texts that relate to this and I’m not sure you really want me to take up that much space posting all of them. So let me just outline for you what I think scripture teaches on this issue:

Man is made up of three parts: Spirit, Soul and Body

1 Thessalonians 5:23 says, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Heb 14:12 “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”

I confess I really don’t understand the distinction between the spirit and soul, because they seem to be used interchangeably, i.e. Is 26:9, Job 7:11, etc.


There is a difference between man's breath and spirit:

"Thus says the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and its offspring, who gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to those who walk in it." Isaiah 42:5

1 Samuel 18:1 "Now it came about when he had finished speaking to Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as himself."

2 Samuel 5:8 "And David said on that day, 'Whoever would strike the Jebusites, let him reach the lame and the blind, who are hated by David's soul, through the water tunnel.' Therefore they say, the blind or the lame shall not come into the house."

Mark 14:34 "And He said to them, 'My soul is deeply grieved to the point of death; remain here and keep watch.'"

Psalm 107:26 "They rose up to the heavens, they went down to the depth; their souls melted away in their misery."

Luke 2:35 " . . . and a sword will pierce even your own soul to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed."


Destination After Death

"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake." Philippians 1:21-24

"Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—for we walk by faith, not by sight—we are of good courage, I say . . . and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:6-8


The Soul is Conscious After Death

Revelation 6:9-11 "And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also."

Obviously a person's soul is more than his breath. These robed souls under the altar, crying out to God, are not "breaths." Note that these souls are conscious after death. They were martyred and after death are very much alive in Heaven. They have the ability to cry out to God and to wear white robes. God Himself tells them that more of their brethren will join them after they are killed.

Again in Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgement was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Additional Scriptures Indicating the Consciousness of the Soul after Death

Job 26:5-6; Matthew 22:31, 32 ; Luke 16:19-31 ; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; Isaiah 14:9-11; 15-17


When the Soul Leaves the Body, the Body Sleeps

The term "sleep" is never applied to the soul or the spirit, but only the body. The soul and the spirit continue to exist after death. The body "sleeps" and goes back to dust. The following verses refer to the state of the body's death as sleep:

Matthew 9:24 "He began to say, 'Depart; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.' And they were laughing at Him." John 11:11 "This He said, and after that He said to them, 'Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep.'"

Acts 7:59-60 "And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!' And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord do not hold this sin against them!' And having said this, he fell asleep."

Acts 13:36 "For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers, and underwent decay."

1 Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus."


God Works Through Man's Spirit

Proverbs 20:27 "The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all the innermost parts of his being."


Man's Spirit has intelligence & emotions:
(1 Corinthians 2:11)

"For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God."

(John 11:33)
"When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her, also weeping, He was deeply moved in spirit and was troubled."


The Soul and the Spirit are Separated from the Body at Death

Luke 8:54-55 ". . . he, however, took her by the hand and called, saying, 'Child arise!' And her spirit returned, and she rose immediately; and He gave orders for something to be given her to eat."

Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both the soul and the body in hell."

James 2:26 "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

1 Kings 17:21,22 "Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the Lord, and said, 'O Lord my God, I pray to Thee, let this child's life return to him.' And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah, and the life of the child returned to him and he revived."

I looked it up and the term "death" which is "thanatas" in Greek, does not mean to be non-existent or unconscious, it rather means to be separated. Some examples:

Colossians 2:13 "And when you were dead (separated from God—not "unconscious") in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh . . . "

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten."
(note - the context of this verse is "under the sun." It is saying that the dead do not know anything that is going on "under the sun"(on earth) vss. 3, 6—after they die and are in Heaven. (Eccl. 12:7)

See also Ephesians 2:1 and Revelation 3:1

So based on this I feel that the scriptures teach that the soul and spirit are more than breath and that a person’s soul and spirit are separated from their bodies when they die. The soul is conscious in Heaven (or hell) after death, awaiting the resurrection of the body.

Scripture does not teach that those dead know what is going on here on earth or that the souls cannot die. After the 2nd death all sin, hell, and satan are dead so there could not be souls of sinners still around.

So you asked for it, this is what I currently believe. I’m open to other ideas as scripture is not clear to me on this so there is always room for interpretation.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/03/03 08:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Where really are the dead?

If so, then why are so many in error in their answer to this question?
There is a challenge in this last question. I would remind you that at one time the entire human race was in error as far as God was concerned. We cannot judge the validity of a teaching on the number of people who believe it. Whether Saddam Hussein is alive or dead depends on the evidence available, not on the number of people who believe it.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/05/03 12:21 AM

quote:

Lobo wrote:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten."
(note - the context of this verse is "under the sun." It is saying that the dead do not know anything that is going on "under the sun"(on earth) vss. 3, 6—after they die and are in Heaven. (Eccl. 12:7)

See also Ephesians 2:1 and Revelation 3:1

So based on this I feel that the scriptures teach that the soul and spirit are more than breath and that a person’s soul and spirit are separated from their bodies when they die. The soul is conscious in Heaven (or hell) after death, awaiting the resurrection of the body.

Scripture does not teach that those dead know what is going on here on earth or that the souls cannot die. After the 2nd death all sin, hell, and satan are dead so there could not be souls of sinners still around.
Having read what you said above, how do you explain the following verse?

quote:

Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
In other words, if a person's thoughts perish at death, how can that same person still be conscious after death?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/05/03 01:27 AM

quote:


quote:


Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

In other words, if a person's thoughts perish at death, how can that same person still be conscious after death?

I don’t or can’t explain it. Like I stated, It is not totally clear to me. On the other hand, how would you explain this text which indicates thoughts of those dead:

“9 The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you- all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones- all those who were kings over the nations. 10 They will all respond,
they will say to you, "You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us."
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.” Ish 14

This is referring to the King of Babylon, vs 3.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/05/03 02:10 AM

The answer is very simple, if you also include verse 8:

quote:

Isaiah 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
As fir trees obviously can't really rejoice and the cedars of Lebanon can't actually speak, the same is true of hell (sheol= grave) and of the dead.

Sheol (hell, meaning grave) is personified as rising to greet the king of Babylon in verse 9 just as the fir and cedar trees were personified in verse 8 to rejoice and speak, and we know that trees can't rejoice and speak, therefore, what is true of the trees is also true of hell or the grave. In fact, hell, or more precisely the grave, moves to make room for the dead in the grave, or in this case to make room for grave of the king of Babylon at his death.

As I said, the Bible doesn't contradict itself. If it says that the thoughts perish at death, then the thoughts perish at death. Nothing being personified about that in the verse in Psalms 146:4.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/05/03 02:38 AM

quote:

As I said, the Bible doesn't contradict itself. If it says that the thoughts perish at death, then the thoughts perish at death. Nothing being personified about that in the verse in Psalms 146:4.
Not so fast Daryl, that text was just an example, there are many more that are not as figurative. For example:

“17 In the twelfth year, on the fifteenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: 18 "Son of man, wail for the hordes of Egypt and consign to the earth below both her and the daughters of mighty nations, with those who go down to the pit. 19 Say to them, 'Are you more favored than others? Go down and be laid among the uncircumcised.' 20 They will fall among those killed by the sword. The sword is drawn; let her be dragged off with all her hordes. 21 From within the grave the mighty leaders will say of Egypt and her allies, 'They have come down and they lie with the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.'” Ez 32

Like I stated, this issue is far from clear. I also want to say that I don’t disagree with you as much as I find conflicting information that does not support the “death is a sleep” doctrine. I can’t in good conscience just believe in that doctrine with so many other conflicting texts.

For example, Jesus in Luke 16 talks about Lazarus going to heaven and a rich man going to hell when they die. I’m sure you will say this was a factious story Jesus was telling to make a point. However, then I need to ask you:

1. If this is a made up story, why is this the ONLY parable of Jesus that has a REAL persons name in it (Lazarus)?

2. If the ideas in this story are not correct with scriptural truth, why would Jesus teach unscriptural ideas or base a story on unscriptural ideas?

3. If these ideas were unscriptural or foreign to the disciples, why did they not question Jesus about this story afterwards?

4. If Jesus doesn’t want people to believe the ideas presented in this story, why did He use them?

Now combine this with what Jesus stated about the body being killed and not the soul, it seems to indicate that Jesus supported the soul being alive separate from the body.
Posted By: DenBorg

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/05/03 09:12 AM

For example, Jesus in Luke 16 talks about Lazarus going to heaven and a rich man going to hell when they die. I’m sure you will say this was a factious story Jesus was telling to make a point.
quote: Lobo
Hello, Lobo.

A question for you. You indicate here that you believe the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to be a literal story of factual and true events. In that story, the rich man in hell was very aware and cognizant of what was happening in heaven, as also was Abraham in heaven aware and cognizant of the goings-on in hell. In fact, people in hell was conversing with people in heaven.

Yet earlier, you stated a belief which contradicts elements in the story in Luke 16 which you believe to be literal. You had stated that you believe that Ecc 9:5,6 means that the dead are not conscience of anything that happens under the sun, but is aware of what happens in heaven.

If this is true, then how could Abraham be conscience of what is happening in hell?
Do you think we'll be seeing the wicked and their suffering all thoughout eternity, talking with them, etc? If so, then heaven wouldn't be much of a heaven, would it?
Posted By: DenBorg

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/05/03 09:37 AM

Paul understood that the soul can be away from the body in heaven:

{ 2 Corinthians 5:1-9 was quoted }

So we see that scripture indicates that the soul can a does exist away from the body.
quote: Lobo
Greetings, Lobo!

I do not believe that Paul was at all saying that the soul can exist away from the body.

In reading 2 Cor. 5:1-9, I note the following:
  1. Paul mentions two bodies:
    • sinful body; our earthly house, this tent
    • glorified body; a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens
  2. Paul mentions three states
    1. at home in this body; this tent; our existence in our sinful bodies
    2. naked; not being clothed in either our earthly house, nor with the house from God; the state of death
    3. further clothed; clothed with our habitation which is from heaven; when God gives us our glorified perfect bodies
  3. Paul explicitly mentions in verse 4 that he does not want to be found naked; in other words, he does not wish for the state of death
  4. Also in verse 4 Paul explicitly mentions that he wants to be further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life

    In Pauls first letter to the Corinthians, he tells them when this mortal shall put on immortality, and when this corruptible shall put on incorruption: 1 Cor 15:51-55 "at the last trump ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."


If I am away at a conference in a city far away from home, and I comment, "I would rather be away from this city and be present with my wife." Does that mean that the moment that I leave the city limits, that I am immediately with my wife? No, I would have several hundred miles to cover first, and I may have to stop at the office to drop off paper work, etc.

I, too, feel as Paul did. I also would rather be absent from this body and be present with my Lord, being further clothed by Him with my habitation which is from heaven. I personally would prefer this happens by my translation at Christ's second coming; but if I should die before then, He will raise me up on that last day and clothe me in that house not made with hands at that time, as described and explained by Paul in 1 Cor 15:51-55.

[ April 05, 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: DenBorg ]
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/05/03 02:55 PM

Another fact to remember is that as we are not conscious of the passing of time between the time that we fall asleep at night to the time when we awaken in the morning several hours later, neither is Paul conscious of the time (centuries in his case) in which Paul lays asleep in the grave or dust of the earth (using Christ's own definition of death). So, without being conscious of the passing of time in death, Paul's last thought at death would be fresh on his mind centuries later which would just as quickly be replaced by the realization that he is being lifted into the air to meet his Lord in the sky at the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. As Paul wasn't conscious of the passing of time in between, to Paul the resurrection after his death was instantaneous, just as our awakening from an evening of sleep also seemed instantaneous as it sometimes seems, especially when in a solid deep sleep, that no sooner that we went to bed and into a deep sleep that the morning has so quickly arrived seeing that we were not conscious of the passing of time during the hours in which we were in a deep sleep. There isn't any deeper sleep than the sleep of death. That is why Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep and that He was going to awake Lazarus from his sleep. By the way, I think Jesus Christ knew what he was doing when he used the name of Lazarus in that story or parable about Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/07/03 04:05 AM

quote:

A question for you. You indicate here that you believe the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to be a literal story of factual and true events. In that story, the rich man in hell was very aware and cognizant of what was happening in heaven, as also was Abraham in heaven aware and cognizant of the goings-on in hell. In fact, people in hell was conversing with people in heaven.
Denborg, I think you misunderstood my point. I don’t believe Luke 16 is a literal story, but I do believe that the precepts of the story are true and correct. In other words, Jesus would not use falsehoods to teach truth. So the idea of people going to heaven and hell is true, Jesus just added some drama to it by saying they see each other.


As far as 2 Cor 5, I see your point. But I think you missed some of what Pauls stated.

First, what did Paul mean by this: “So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.”

This indicates Paul feels that right now, or when he wrote this, I could please God in or away for my body. If I die now and am in the grave, how can I do anything at that time to please God?


Now notice Paul’s next statement: “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

Notice that we are not awarded what “due” for things done “away from the body”, only in the body. This again would indicate that this state (away from the body) has already sealed our fate and we can please God during that time, but it won’t relate to our reward. So since Paul’s context was things done before the judgment, as this idea leads up to the judgment, “away from the body” must mean in heaven before the judgment.


quote:

That is why Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep and that He was going to awake Lazarus from his sleep. By the way, I think Jesus Christ knew what he was doing when he used the name of Lazarus in that story or parable about Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man.
Daryl,

Two things:
1. Why did the disciples of Jesus not understand that death was synonymous with sleep in John 11? Yet, they fully understood Jesus story in Luke 16?

2. Yes, Jesus knew what He was doing by using Lazarus name in Luke 16, because the entire story was based on biblical precepts. There is no place in scripture where Jesus taught a biblical principle using unbiblical precepts. This would be like saying the ends justify the means. So all of what Jesus stated was biblical truth.


I would like to ask both of you a question: do you believe that the “breath of life” leaves a person when they die and goes back to God? If yes, does that life force specific to it’s previous owner? If not, why would God need it back? God is the origin of all life and would not need the “breath of life” back, as if He would run out without it, He would just give more out who needed it.

So please explain what goes back to God at death; what is is and why God needs it back.
Posted By: DenBorg

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/07/03 11:19 AM

Lobo:

Thank you for your thought-provoking comments and dialoge. I truly appreciate it. The following is a bit lengthy, but I hope you take the time to read it and contemplate on it.
Denborg, I think you misunderstood my point. I don’t believe Luke 16 is a literal story, but I do believe that the precepts of the story are true and correct. In other words, Jesus would not use falsehoods to teach truth. So the idea of people going to heaven and hell is true, Jesus just added some drama to it by saying they see each other.
quote: Lobo
I guess I did misunderstand your point. Thank you for your clarification. At first, you seemed to be echoing what I've heard many others say, and that is that the story in Luke 16 is a very literal account of what truly happened.

But I do not understand why you view the idea of dead people in heaven and dead people in hell seeing and conversing with each other as "added drama", while you view the idea of people going to heaven or hell immediately at death as a "true precept"

If you believe that people must go straight to heaven or to hell simply because Jesus used that idea in a parable, why do you not also believe that people in heaven and in hell both see and talk to each other since He also used that idea in the same parable?

What makes the first thought a "true precept" and the other merely "added drama"?

Assuming just for a moment that neither idea was literally true and that Jesus was using the parable to teach a spiritual truth, why would the one idea make Jesus a liar while the other idea would not?

First, what did Paul mean by this: “So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
quote: Lobo
It seems to me that you are making the assumption that whenever Paul says "away from the body" that he always means the "naked" or "unclothed" state. Upon what do you base that assumption?

When Paul says "away from the body", you must ask yourself:
  1. Paul mentions two bodies in his dialoge. Which of the two bodies is he referring to here? (I think we both agree that in verse 8 "absent from the body" means absent from this tent, our sinful body)
  2. Paul also mentions three different states: a) at home in this body, b) naked, c) further clothed with our glorified body.

    "At home in the sinful body" is one of the three states, so which of the other two states does Paul mean when he says "away from the body" (It really does not matter which of the two bodies you are away from, if you are away from either of the two bodies, that still leaves two other possible states; but simply being absent from one of the two bodies does not mean that you are necessarily absent from both bodies)

All throughout his comments, Paul talks about being in this sinful body and absent from the Lord or being further clothed in our glorified body and being present with the Lord. But absolutely nowhere does he indicate that we are with the Lord while being found naked. Neither does Paul make any comment about our being able to do anything while being naked.

Paul's only comment about being naked is found in verses 3 and 4: having been clothed, we shall not be found naked, and not because we want to be unclothed. With this brief exception where he says that we won't be found naked if we are further clothed and that we don't want to be unclothed, Paul repeatedly talks exclusively about us being in this body or in our glorified body.

Even his brief mention of the state of nakedness is given in the context of being in our glorified bodies. "If we have our new body, we won't be naked. We are burdened while in this body, not because we want to be naked, but because we want our glorified body instead of this old tattered sinful body"

He talks about this in verse 1, in verse 2, in verse 3, and in verse 4. Then, in verse 5 Paul reveals to us Who it was Who has prepared us for this very thing. (what very thing? the promise of a body replacement, a better building from God should our earthly tent be destroyed, the very thing which Paul had been talking about all along in the first four verses. In other words, Paul has been talking about the assurance and promise of the resurrection, which is precisely when we will receive our glorified bodies, as explained in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians.)

So, in the first 7 verses, Paul talks about nothing except us either being at home in our sinful body (absent from the Lord) or being clothed with our habitation from heaven (present with the Lord) and now all of a sudden, in verse 8, being absent from our sinful body is supposed to mean something altogether different than what he had been saying all along?

In the first 7 verses, Paul talks about our sin-ridden bodies being replaced by immortal sinless perfect bodies which God will give us, and suddenly in verse 8 Paul is supposedly talking about being with the Lord in neither of the two bodies?

How can Paul describe "groaning, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked, being burdened not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed with immortality, and God has prepared us for this very thing and gave us the Spirit as a guarantee", and then all of a sudden change his mind and become "well pleased" to be found naked?

Now notice Paul’s next statement: “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

Notice that we are not awarded what “due” for things done “away from the body”, only in the body. This again would indicate that this state (away from the body) has already sealed our fate and we can please God during that time, but it won’t relate to our reward.

quote: Lobo
The first thing I would like to comment on, is that to say "each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body" is not the same thing as saying, "It is possible to do things while you have no body", neither is it to say that we exist, or have conscience thought when we have no body.

If your boss tells you, "Every year, you will appear before me so that I may award you according to your performance and according to how well you've pleased me while in my employ" is not the same thing as your boss telling you that it is possible for you to please him with your job performance while you are not in his employ (and that he just won't base your raise upon your pleasing him with your job performance while not in his employ).

I would agree with you, however, that the state of being away from our sinful body does seal our fate. In other words, whether a person is saved or lost cannot be changed after that person's death.

So since Paul’s context was things done before the judgment, as this idea leads up to the judgment, “away from the body” must mean in heaven before the judgment.
quote: Lobo
I respectfully disagree, for the reasons given above.

Again, to be awarded according to the things done while in the body, is not the same thing as saying that it is possible to please God while absent from the body.

Also remember, there are two states we can be in while being absent from the sinful body:
  1. Absent from the body and naked, or
  2. Absent from the body and being further clothed with our glorified body
Yet in spite of all of Pauls talk about, and his focus on, being with the Lord in our glorified bodies, you still assume that in verse 8, 9, and 10 that whenever Paul talks about being present with the Lord or absent from this body that he means our naked state.

1. Why did the disciples of Jesus not understand that death was synonymous with sleep in John 11? Yet, they fully understood Jesus story in Luke 16?
quote: Lobo
Where does it say that they fully understood Jesus' story in Luke 16?

I would like to ask both of you a question: do you believe that the “breath of life” leaves a person when they die and goes back to God? If yes, does that life force specific to it’s previous owner? If not, why would God need it back? God is the origin of all life and would not need the “breath of life” back, as if He would run out without it, He would just give more out who needed it.

So please explain what goes back to God at death; what is is and why God needs it back.

quote: Lobo
That is a good question. The word used in Ecc 12:7 "ruah", which means "breath or wind"

Let me ask you, if the "breath of life" that returns to God at death is specific to one person, where was this "breath of life" before God gave it to that person?

If God gave it, was it not with God before He gave it?

Therefore, if one believes that the "breath of life" returning to God at death means that we do not die but instead go to be with God, then wouldn't it also be true that we existed before creation as well?

If it is "us" that returns to God at death, and it was "us" that God gave our body at creation, then we were with God before creation, before He gave us these bodies we have now.

That would mean that we have no beginning and no end, just like God.

When you turn off a light in your room, the power returns to the electric company who gave it. Does that mean then, that the power company has to have that power back and is incapable of creating more power?

Neither does it mean that God requires the breath of life to return to Him because he needs it for His survival, or because he needs it so that He doesn't run out.

And this touches upon one last point in this post:

The issue of death is closely tied with creation: When we were created, when God joined the dust of the ground (body) with the breath of life, did God give man a living soul, or did man become a living soul? (See Genesis 2:7)
Posted By: DenBorg

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/07/03 11:56 AM

I would like to ask both of you a question: do you believe that the “breath of life” leaves a person when they die and goes back to God? If yes, does that life force specific to it’s previous owner? If not, why would God need it back?
quote: Lobo
Just to note a couple other verses that uses "breath of life" or "breath of God":

All in whose nostrils was teh breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.
Genesis 7:22

As long as my breath is in me, and the breath of God in my nostrils,
Job 27:3

Does this mean that the being's consciousness (spirit), or whatever it may be called, is located in the nose?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/07/03 07:06 PM

quote:

If you believe that people must go straight to heaven or to hell simply because Jesus used that idea in a parable, why do you not also believe that people in heaven and in hell both see and talk to each other since He also used that idea in the same parable?
Because in my assessment, the idea of peoples souls in heaven or hell does not conflict with other scripture, but the idea of people seeing each other from heaven to hell does.


quote:

What makes the first thought a "true precept" and the other merely "added drama"?
Because Jesus stated someone can have a soul that is alive while the body is dead. So that idea goes along with that distinction here. The added drama was the visualization of Abraham’s bosom (very comforting to Jews) and then torment in hell.


quote:

Assuming just for a moment that neither idea was literally true and that Jesus was using the parable to teach a spiritual truth, why would the one idea make Jesus a liar while the other idea would not?
You don’t see a difference between the descriptions or visualization used to make heaven more inviting and hell more terrible, and the possibility of going to heaven or hell that doesn’t exist?

For example, I tell you I just saw a car drive by and the car was red. You don’t see the difference between no car really driving by and a car did drive by but it was actually gray (I just added the “red” for interest)?

The point is that you and other SDA’s seem to feel that the “state of the dead” issue is very important. If that is true, why would Jesus teach something that was untrue in that regards? I mean it’s one thing to use symbolize that is not controversial like Abraham’s bosom, but it’s entirely different to use concepts like going to heaven directly after death.

Also, I challenge you to give me just one other parable where Jesus used unscriptural “symbolism” (or whatever you want to call it).

There is no other story of Jesus that includes unscriptural ideas. Yet, because this story conflicts with what you believe you just conclude that it is all made up. If that is true than this parable is an anomaly, one of a kind. And that in itself is very telling as well.

One last thing on this issue, as Jesus ministry at that time was, by His own assessment, for Israel first and foremost, do you know what orthodox Jews believe about the state of the dead? They believe that the soul goes to heaven or hell on death. That is why the disciples didn’t bat an eye when Jesus told this story.


quote:

It seems to me that you are making the assumption that whenever Paul says "away from the body" that he always means the "naked" or "unclothed" state. Upon what do you base that assumption?
No, I feel the “naked” symbolism means hell. So being "found naked" would mean that the person was not saved. Remember, the point of Paul’s passage was to please God a do what is right. So he was contrasting those that do right with those that don’t. Do right = heavenly house and don’t do right = naked or hell.


quote:

Paul also mentions three different states: a) at home in this body, b) naked, c) further clothed with our glorified body.
Yes, “at home in the body” = alive on earth in your old sinful body, “naked” = hell (i.e. “don’t be found naked”), and “glorified body” = heaven or heavenly dwelling.

Being naked cannot mean just death, because then Paul’s statement about we should not be found naked would not make sense. There is no shame in being found dead, it happened to Paul. So “naked” has to be hell.


quote:

Where does it say that they fully understood Jesus' story in Luke 16?
It doesn’t, but based on all the other stories of Jesus in which the disciples were not shy about questioning him, and this states nothing. In fact, when Jesus told them that things a person eats cannot make them unclean they kept bugging Him about it until He called them “dull”.

So the disciple “MO” was to ask questions. Yet in Luke 16, no questions.


quote:

Let me ask you, if the "breath of life" that returns to God at death is specific to one person, where was this "breath of life" before God gave it to that person?
I don’t know, scripture doesn’t say. I suppose it’s part of God’s essence. I imagine it’s part of the river of life as well.


quote:

Therefore, if one believes that the "breath of life" returning to God at death means that we do not die but instead go to be with God, then wouldn't it also be true that we existed before creation as well?
This seems like circular logic to me. Did your body exist before you were born? If I build something, did it exist before I built it? This sounds like eastern philosophy to me?

So it's just like man did not exist before God created Adam. Our life (breath) is a gift that comes from God. Prior to it being our life it was with God as just a part of Him, but not individual to anyone else. Then, once given, like creating Adam, it is then part of the person.


quote:

When you turn off a light in your room, the power returns to the electric company who gave it. Does that mean then, that the power company has to have that power back and is incapable of creating more power?

Neither does it mean that God requires the breath of life to return to Him because he needs it for His survival, or because he needs it so that He doesn't run out.
i understand this analogy, but it doesn’t seem consistent with scripture. Using this same logic we must then also conclude that the river of life flowing out from the throne of God in the new earth will at some point run uphill back to God who gave it?

I understand your point here, but with all due respect, you have not answered the question of why the “breath of life” needs to go back if it’s not specific to an individual?


quote:

The issue of death is closely tied with creation: When we were created, when God joined the dust of the ground (body) with the breath of life, did God give man a living soul, or did man become a living soul? (See Genesis 2:7)
The combination of the body and spirit makes a living soul. You assessment of this text conflicts with Jesus statement about how a body can die but soul live on in Matt 10:28.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/07/03 09:04 PM

What about the verse that says that a soul that sinneth, it shall die in Ezekiel?

quote:

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
It says that the soul that sins will die, therefore, how can that soul live on?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/07/03 11:47 PM

quote:

It says that the soul that sins will die, therefore, how can that soul live on?
Good point Daryl, but I believe that it is also answered by Matt 10:28


“28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”


Who can kill the body but can’t kill the soul? Humans, or man.

Who can destroy both the body and soul in hell? Satan! Following Satan will not only result in the loss of your physical body, but also your soul.


As I stated before, there is no scriptural evidence to suggest that the soul (of those not saved) lives beyond the second death. So while there may be souls currently in hell, those souls will die at the second death.

So don’t accept salvation and your soul will die at the second death. Your soul may live on after the death of your body, but will not live on past the second death.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/08/03 01:38 AM

What is the every living soul that died in the sea in the following Bible verse?

quote:

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man; and every living soul died in the sea.
Sounds like sea life to me which would tell me that a living soul is anything that lives and moves and breathes, and consequently can die such as in the instance of this Bible reference.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/08/03 01:48 AM

If, as you say, that the soul of the Christian goes to heaven at death, then how do you explain the following universal statement in the first part of the following verse?

quote:
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD......
If the soul of the Christian goes to heaven at death, then why do they not praise the Lord?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/08/03 02:29 AM

quote:

If, as you say, that the soul of the Christian goes to heaven at death, then how do you explain the following universal statement in the first part of the following verse?
quote:

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD......

If the soul of the Christian goes to heaven at death, then why do they not praise the Lord?
Come on Daryl, you have only posted part of the text and left our the other parts that explain it.

“16 The highest heavens belong to the LORD , but the earth he has given to man. 17 It is not the dead who praise the LORD , those who go down to silence; 18 it is we who extol the LORD , both now and forevermore.”

So who is it that goes “down to silence”? The evil dead who don’t go to heaven:

“17 Let me not be put to shame, O LORD , for I have cried out to you; but let the wicked be put to shame and lie silent in the grave. 18 Let their lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak arrogantly against the righteous.” Ps 31:17


Also notice that the good can praise or extol God now and FOREVER! How can a dead person in the gave extol God forever? They can’t. So the good are not in the grave because we have just seen that those in the grave must be silent. And that those in the grave are not “good” but evil (Ps 55:15).

“15 But God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself.” Ps 49:15

Notice that a person in a grave is dead and doesn’t have a life. So if someone is dead how can their life be redeem from it? It can’t! So God saved this life from the grave and sent it to heaven (Ps 86:13, Prov 15:24, etc)
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/08/03 02:51 AM

I notice you didn't have anything to say about the other post about every living soul in the sea died.

As far as the dead praise not the Lord goes, the verse in Psalms says just that. Here is the verse in its entirety which doesn't change anything.

quote:

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
And here it is again with the other two verses in the KJV:

quote:

Psalms 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.
The Bible says that the dead praise not the Lord. It didn't specify either the righteous dead or the wicked dead but the dead in general, they who go down in silence. When we die, we are silent, we speak not and praise not, but go down into the grave in silence. The Bible also says that in the day that they die, their thoughts perish. Again it doesn't specify whether the dead are righteous or wicked. And when it says every living soul in the sea died, it means that the soul died and didn't soar off into either heaven or hell.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/08/03 03:29 AM

How about we look at this from the beginning of the Bible where the life of man began, examining each text before moving on to the next one?

Let us begin with Genesis 2:7.

quote:

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
In this verse we discover that the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, breathed into man the breath of life in which man became a living soul.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/08/03 04:56 AM

One thing I am learning from this is that we should first focus on the clear Bible texts and leave what could be considered as the questionable ones out of the study, at least for now, and see what we learn from doing it this way.

With that in mind, what is the next first clear text on what happens when somebody or something dies? I say that as animals, birds, fish, etc. died as well as humans. In fact, they are all referred to as souls, are they not? As man became a living soul in Genesis 2:7, didn't all the other animals, birds, fish, etc. also become living souls?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/09/03 06:49 AM

quote:

The Bible says that the dead praise not the Lord. It didn't specify either the righteous dead or the wicked dead but the dead in general, they who go down in silence. When we die, we are silent, we speak not and praise not, but go down into the grave in silence.
The texts I quoted point out that those that “go down” to the pit or hell are evil doers and therefore silent. There are no texts that I’m aware of that say those that go down to hell are righteous.


quote:

I notice you didn't have anything to say about the other post about every living soul in the sea died.
Sorry, I missed that text. However, after reviewing it I think this is an issue of translation. Only the KJV states “soul”. Every other translation, including the NKJV states “living creature”. So the idea that animals are considered souls or having souls is certainly suspect with it only being supported by one text in one translation.


quote:

In this verse we discover that the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, breathed into man the breath of life in which man became a living soul.
And yet in Matt 10:28 we discover that the body can die while the soul lives on. As such, your interpretation of Gen 2:7 must be inaccurate, because Matt 10:28 is very clear.


quote:

With that in mind, what is the next first clear text on what happens when somebody or something dies? I say that as animals, birds, fish, etc. died as well as humans. In fact, they are all referred to as souls, are they not? As man became a living soul in Genesis 2:7, didn't all the other animals, birds, fish, etc. also become living souls?
If that is the case, why does the “breath of life” from the animals not need to return to God like the “breath” from a human?

“Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?” ECC 3:21


If there is nothing unique about the spirit (or breath as you say) of a human, why doesn’t it also return to the ground like an animals?
Posted By: Avalee

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/08/03 07:43 PM

When I read this verse this is what I understand out of it. What makes up the soul is:

Dust of ground + breath of Life= living soul

7 And the LORD God formed man of the 1. dust of the ground, and 2. breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man 3. became a living soul.

First God formed Adam, then He breathed into this dead body His breath and Adam became a living soul. Take away that breath and you are just lump of clay again.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/08/03 08:07 PM

quote:

First God formed Adam, then He breathed into this dead body His breath and Adam became a living soul. Take away that breath and you are just lump of clay again.
Then how do you explain this teaching from our Lord Yeshua?

“28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matt 10
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/08/03 08:58 PM

quote:

Lobo wrote:
If that is the case, why does the “breath of life” from the animals not need to return to God like the “breath” from a human?

“Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?” ECC 3:21

If there is nothing unique about the spirit (or breath as you say) of a human, why doesn’t it also return to the ground like an animals?
That is an interesting question that I will need to research before responding to your question.

As far as a different translation of the Bible goes, I am more inclined to accept the KJV than most other translations. Better still is going to the original Hebrew/Greek where applicable.

While typing this out I just thought about another couple of interesting Bible texts that I need to post here as I may forget them later on. One is about what Christ said to the thief on the cross and the other is what was said about David and where he isn't yet. More on this later when the time is more appropriate as I first want to pursue the discussion on the make up of the living being, be it human or otherwise.

Also, if I am not respoinding to other pertinent questions at this time, it is because I either don't want to jump all over the place, or want to do some researching first, or both. [Smile]
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/12/03 02:01 PM

For those of you participating, or following this discussion, by clicking on the following link in the Forum Library of MSDAOL, you will find this most interesting:

http://www.maritime-sda-online.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=73;t=000014

Feel free to discuss here what you discover there.
Posted By: Avalee

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/12/03 05:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:

Then how do you explain this teaching from our Lord Yeshua?

“28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matt 10
There is a book by Joe Crews that Amazing Facts puts out where Mr. Crews answers some difficult Bible texts. Below is the one on Matthew 10:28. I am also including the link to this page.

quote:
Matthew 10:28

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Jesus clearly teaches in this text that the soul is not naturally immortal. It can and will be destroyed in hell. But what does He mean about killing the body, but not the soul? Is it possible for the soul to exist apart from the body? Some say it is, but the Bible indicates otherwise.

The Greek word "psuche" has been translated "soul" in this text, but in 40 other texts it has been translated "life." For example, Jesus said, "Whosoever will lose his life [psuche] for my sake shall find it." Matthew 16:25.

But what of Matthew 10:28? Put in the word "life" instead of "soul" and the text makes perfect sense in its consistency with the rest of the Bible. The contrast is between one who can take the physical life and Him who can take away eternal life. Proof lies in the words of Jesus: "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell." Luke 12:4, 5.

In other words, the word "soul" here means not only life, but eternal life. Notice that Luke says everything just like Matthew except that he does not say "kills the soul." Instead he says "cast into hell." They mean the same thing. Men can only kill the body and take away the physical life. God will cast into hell and take away eternal life. Not only will their bodies be destroyed in that fire, but their lives will be snuffed out for all eternity.

http://www.adventist4truth.com/Library/crews-answers_difficult_questions.html

You may also get this book from Amazing Facts:

http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/search.asp?Category=Bible+Studies&CurrPage=1
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/13/03 04:31 PM

Here is another good link on Absent From The Body
from which I will post both the link and quote some of what is in that link below:

Absent From The Body

quote:

.......in the first few verses of 2 Corinthians 5 where Paul speaks about life and death. His language has been understood by many to teach that the reward of the righteous is bestowed at the moment of death and that an immortal soul leaves the body to face an immediate reward or punishment. If this is the true meaning of Paul's words, we are faced with some serious inconsistencies within the epistles. Let us examine the verses in 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 and discover what Paul actually did teach on this crucial subject......
As this is too long to post here in its entirety, I suggest you go to the link and then, if you like, respond to your thoughts on what he says about those verses here.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/16/03 01:10 AM

Avalee,
your explanation of Matt 10:28 is not accurate with the original Greek according to Strongs Greek concordance. According to Strongs the term “psuche” used in Matt 10:28 is used 58 times for “soul”, 40 time for “life”, 3 times for “mind”, and 1 time for “heart” in the KJV translation. So the majority of the time the term “psuche” is actually used for “soul”.

Here is Strongs' definition of “soul” –
a. “the soul”

b. “the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)”; “the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life”

c. “the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)”

These are facts that you and Joe Crews failed to mention. Now why would he say the term is used 40 times for “life” and not mention that the majority (58 times) the term is actually used for “soul”? Sounds quite slanted to me.

Anyway, these are the facts, look it up for yourself.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/16/03 04:13 PM

quote:

Lobo wrote:
Now why would he say the term is used 40 times for “life” and not mention that the majority (58 times) the term is actually used for “soul”? Sounds quite slanted to me.
How many times for either is not the issue, the fact that it referred to it as life those 40 times and soul those 58 times tells me that the evidence is apparent that the term is strongly used for both which says a lot to me. The 58 times doesn't negate the 40 times, or vice-versa, therefore, we need to look at the whole picture keeping in mind that the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

The Bible is never slanted, however, it unfortunately isn't true of us as we seek out those things that backs up our belief system rather than openly searching for what is Bible truth. Unless we are searching for Bible truth without any bias, we probably will never see that truth, or question any texts that seemingly contradicts our belief system.

I know a person who wouldn't accept the truth about the doctrine on the state of the dead until he finally looked at the Greek. He had studied Greek as part of his university studies. His findings resulted in his accepting of the fact that when a person dies, that when the soul dies, it remains in the grave until the resurrection day.

He saw from the Greek that the Greek word for soul referred to the body, that the Greek word for spirit referred to breath, and that the body (soul) + the breath (spirit) represented a living soul (body). Take away the breath (spirit) and you have a dead soul (body). Thus it makes perfectly good sense when the Bible said that every living soul (body) in the sea died.

By the way, the breath of life (spirit) came from God and gave life, and that same breath (spirit) returned to God when that life ended.

When we look at it that way, the Bible is in harmony from Genesis to Revelation on this subject of the dead.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/16/03 07:02 PM

Daryl, first let me say that I agree with your assessment of Matt 10:28 in that having the term used for “soul” 58 times and “life” 40 times doesn’t really tell us what the usage was in this specific text. However, it does tell you that at least 58 times the term was used to indicate something other than “life”. According to strongs that indicated the definitions I outlined above. As you can see, that definition supports my position that the soul is more than just “life”.

So while we are talking about what the bible states and consistency in scripture, you should think about the 58 times strongs indicates that the term “psuche” was used for “soul”, and that the definition for “soul” used those 58 times meant “an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death” (Strongs).

This means that scripture indicates the presence or existence of a “soul” 58 times that you state doesn’t exist. Think about that?

So if you are trying to make a consistency case for the definition of “life” used 40 times, that idea fails in light of the fact that it was used 58 times to indicate something that you don’t think exists.

So you need to ask yourself why scripture uses the term “psuche” 58 times to indicate a soul “essence” that you don’t believe exists?

So I challenge you to use that ability to “search the bible for truth without bias” you mentioned to resolve the conflict your definition of the “soul” has with what scripture indicates.

You see, I don’t doubt that the term was used to indicate “life” 40 times, but you think the definition of the term soul, as indicated by strongs, doesn’t even exist.

So no, this doesn’t prove that Matt 10:28 means “soul” as defined by Strongs. But what it DOES prove is that the “soul”, as defined by Strongs, does exist and was used 58 times.

So while you have won the battle over Matt 10:28, you have lost the war in regards to the existance of a "soul" as denfined by Strongs!
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/16/03 09:03 PM

Where did I say that the "soul" doesn't exist? I believe that the soul referring to the body does exist.

Remember that the Bible also says in relation to the soul, from ashes to ashes, from dust to dust. That is what happens to all souls, human or otherwise at death. They exist and eventually become once again the dust of the earth.

Also, with the definition of the soul meaning life, how do you get around the fact that every living soul in the sea died? And did those dead souls in the sea soar off either into heaven or hell? I believe they went into a watery grave.

In a sense, we all go to hell at death, if you think of hell as the grave, be it in the earth or the water.

If you would only let the Bible speak to you, if you would only let the Bible interpret Itself, you would see this and possibly other things in a different light.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/17/03 02:34 AM

quote:

Where did I say that the "soul" doesn't exist? I believe that the soul referring to the body does exist.
I stated that you don’t believe the definition of “soul” as stated by Strongs. You definition is body + breath of life, but that is not what Strongs states. THAT is what I stated.


quote:

Also, with the definition of the soul meaning life, how do you get around the fact that every living soul in the sea died? And did those dead souls in the sea soar off either into heaven or hell? I believe they went into a watery grave.
Come on Daryl, I hoped we could have a rational and logical discussion. The term “soul” in that text is only translated as “soul” in ONE bible translation the KJV. No other translations make that error. So if you want to base your beliefs on a translation, that’s fine. I however, need more sources that agree to truly understand the truth. So the idea that the original language meant “soul” and not “things” or creatures is suspect.

Also, you still have not answered my question related to Ecc 3:21, “if there is nothing unique about the spirit (or breath as you say) of a human, why doesn’t it also return to the ground like an animals?”


quote:

If you would only let the Bible speak to you, if you would only let the Bible interpret Itself, you would see this and possibly other things in a different light.
Frankly, I used to believe as you, but the bible did speak to me and I could not ignore the conflicts as you seem to be doing. So I feel I’m being very honest when I say that I can’t in good faith believe that nothing happens at death other than people just lay there. That idea is not consistently support in scripture and not what any Jews, modern day or historical, believe. Yet, Jesus never addressed this issue and made many statements that do not support the “death as a sleep” idea.

So when you talk about letting scripture speak, I at least acknowledge the problems, which you seem to happily ignore.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/17/03 02:46 AM

quote:

Lobo asked:
Also, you still have not answered my question related to Ecc 3:21, “if there is nothing unique about the spirit (or breath as you say) of a human, why doesn’t it also return to the ground like an animals?"
A thought just came to me. The spirit or the breath of the human returned to God as God intends to breathe that same breath or spirit back into man at his resurrection, whereas the breath or spirit of the animals return to the ground as God will not be resurrecting the animals at His second coming.

Also, what makes you think Strong's definition is correct? If a definition by man goes against Bible truth, then the definition by man, in this case Strong's, would be suspect.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/17/03 03:05 AM

I am a first generation Seventh-day Adventist Christian. Before that I was a Baptist and solidly believed that when you died that you either went to heaven or to a tormenting hell.

When I was challenged, I searched the Bible for the truth in this matter, and I was convicted and led by the Holy Spirit that totally reversed what I once believed.

When I read from the Bible that a person's very thoughts perish at death rather than continuing on immediately in some energized fashion either in heaven or hell, I had to rethink what I had blindly believed.

When I read that the dead praise not the Lord, it further spoke to me on the truth of the state of a person while dead and in the grave.

Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep in which He referred to death as a sleep. What is the definition of a dead person? Why didn't Jesus say that Lazarus was now in heaven praising the Lord? And if Lazarus was in heaven, then why did Christ bring him back from a wonderful heaven to this suffering planet quaranteed from the universe on account of the sickness of sin?

Have you honestly looked at every piece of Scripture on this subject? I did, and it turned my thinking and belief on this subject in the opposite direction.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/17/03 03:09 AM

You prayerfully tell me exactly turned you around in your thinking, with Bible texts and everything, and I will prayerfully do the same thing.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/18/03 06:07 AM

quote:

A thought just came to me. The spirit or the breath of the human returned to God as God intends to breathe that same breath or spirit back into man at his resurrection, whereas the breath or spirit of the animals return to the ground as God will not be resurrecting the animals at His second coming.
I’m sure you realize that this idea is just conjecture on your part with no scriptural support? However, let’s assume that your idea is correct. If that is the case then that would also mean that the “breath” of a person is individual containing factors or an essence that is specific to that person, right?


quote:

Also, what makes you think Strong's definition is correct? If a definition by man goes against Bible truth, then the definition by man, in this case Strong's, would be suspect.
I agree, but I don’t believe Strongs definition goes against literal scripture. It may seem to be contrary to concepts and ideas that are not literally stated in scripture, but not what is actually stated. In my opinion, it is consistent with what is written in scripture and the understanding of the people during bible times.


quote:

Have you honestly looked at every piece of Scripture on this subject? I did, and it turned my thinking and belief on this subject in the opposite direction.
Yes, every piece in scripture that I’m currently aware of. Why do you think I’m here having this discussion with you? To see if there is anything I’ve overlooked. I want to know and believe the truth, but I cannot and will not just ignore scripture what is contrary to the “death as a sleep” doctrine. I want to know truth, ALL the truth, not just my version of the truth and ignore those things that don’t support it.

Your post mentions valid points, but you ignore those texts that conflict with what you just stated. I cannot do that.


quote:

You prayerfully tell me exactly turned you around in your thinking, with Bible texts and everything, and I will prayerfully do the same thing.
I’m not sure what you mean here? But I think you are saying that you will pray for me to see the truth while I pray for you to see the truth, correct?

I welcome your prayers! I certainly don’t have all the answers, but I just can’t ignore the contrary scriptures and your explanations to those scriptures so far does not seem reasonable to me yet.


I would like to ask you a question; what is you definition of “hell”? Is it a literal place? Does it exist now or later? Etc.
Posted By: Avalee

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/18/03 08:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep in which He referred to death as a sleep. What is the definition of a dead person? Why didn't Jesus say that Lazarus was now in heaven praising the Lord? And if Lazarus was in heaven, then why did Christ bring him back from a wonderful heaven to this suffering planet quaranteed from the universe on account of the sickness of sin?
I have often thought about this too Daryl. If a person goes to Heaven when they die why would Jesus bring Lazarus back to this earth after he had been up there for what, 3 days? How mean that would be of Jesus to give Lazarus a glimplse of Heaven and then jerk him right back to this sinful world. Just does not make sense to me at all. I wonder why it is so important for people to put those who have died into heaven? If I had ever thought that we had a God in Heaven who did things like that I would never had given my life over to someone as mean as that. Just think about it:

A person dies...and they go to Heaven...now they all say that they, the dead person, knows what is happening down here on earth right? Well this person is soppose to be in a place where there is happiness all around..but then this person has to look down here and see that the child they have left is being brutally molested by whomever...you get the picture. How cruel of God to allow this person to be alive and knowing what is happening down here on earth. No there is no way I could ever believe this way...I did not even believe this way when I was not a SDA. It is just not logical at all.

I relize there are those special ones who are in Heaven now, the ones who were translated in the Bible times and those who were resurrected at Jesus death, and Moses, etc. These people were for a special reason..to be a witness to us in the Bible.

Or how about a God who has those who have died and gone to a burning hell. Know that is for sure a very very cruel God. Why would I want to even have anything to do with such a sadistic being? To put someone in an everlasting burning hell to be tormented day and night forever? Please....God is love. He is not going to put anyone in a buring hell to burn forever Yes, at the end of the 1000 yrs. it will happen. But they will burn only until burned up..not forever and forever as people like to teach.

Just like a loving God would not have us in Heaven looking down on all this saddness. No, a loving God has us "sleep" until He comes again to awaken those who have fallen asleep in Jesus, and will raise us up again to be with Him forever. What a very peaceful thought. If we do have to die before our Lord Jesus comes the Second time it is so very comforting to know that we will be just "sleeping"...not out there in the spirit world. I am so happy that we have a God in Heaven who loves us so much that He cares enough for me that He would not be such a cruel God. Amen [Heart]
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/18/03 09:42 PM

I believe the Bible wasn't written only for the theologian to wrestle out the truth contained therein, but it was written in such a way that even a child could search out and also find the truth contained within the Bible.

I also believe the Bible interprets itself and gives its own definition.

In the case of this particular study, this means that the Bible gives its own definition on what death is, and I accept the Bible's definition of death over Strong's definition, especially if it goes contrary to the Bible's own definition.

With this in mind, and beginning in my next post, I am now going to look up every text that deals with death and comment on it here one post at a time. I hope others will join me in doing the same thing as many participants make lighter work. [Smile]
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 04/18/03 10:53 PM

In order to understand death, we need to understand life. We need to understand how we got here in the first place.

Genesis 1 focused on the six days of creation in a general sense, more like an overview of creation. It said that man was created but it didn't say how until in Genesis 2 when it went over the creation of man in greater detail.

quote:

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
You notice that Genesis 1:27 grouped the creation of both male and female together in one lump whereas Adam was first created, and some time later, obviously still on the 6th day, Eve was created.

Genesis 2:7 deals specifically with how Adam was created.

quote:

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The first thing God did was to form man out of the dust of the earth. To form implies an act of molding and fashioning into a form corresponding in design and appearance to the divine plan. It reminds me of the activity of the potter. Science confirms the fact that man is composed of materials derived from the ground, the elements of the earth. Decomposition of the human body after death bears witness to the same fact. How true that man was made of the "dust of the ground," and also that he shall "return to the earth" from where he was taken as you can read for yourself in Eccl. 12:7.

God then breathed His breath of life into man's nostrils. Man then became a living soul, a living life form, a living being. The agency by which the spark of life was transferred to Adam's body is said to be the "breath" of God. The same thought appears in Job 33:4 which says, "The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life." Imparted to man, the "breath" is equivalent to his life; it is life itself. At death there is no life, or "no breath left in him" as evidenced in I Kings 17:17 which says, "And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him. This "breath of life" in man is no different than the "breath of life" in animals, for all receive their life from God as evidenced in Genesis 7:21,22 which says, "21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. It cannot therefore be the mind or the intelligence.

This is the first time the word living soul is used in the KJV of the Holy Bible. In fact, it is the first time the word soul is used in the Bible. Here is where I agree with Lobo in that the KJV has wrongfully used the word "soul." The more correct word here is "being." In other words, it should be read as, "and man became a living being" as rightfully stated in the ASV. The proper equation therefore is man formed from the dust of the ground + breath of life = a living being.

I believe this gives us a clear understanding of what constituted the creation of a living being in Genesis 2:7.

I am going to end this post here and allow for any comments from others before moving on.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/04/03 05:08 PM

I placed a slightly edited copy of Lobo's post relating to the state of the dead here.

quote:

POSTED ORIGINALLY BY BOB PICKLE:
(It was Greek philosophy that gave us immortality of the soul and eternal torment.)

POSTED ORIGINALLY BY LOBO:
Bob, this is not an accurate statement. In the Jewish oral tradition, long before the rise of the Roman empire, they believed in conditional immortality of the soul. This believe is slightly different in that Israel believed that the soul can exist separately from the body but that this is conditional in that God grants this existence, it’s not based on some inherent quality that exists in the soul.

For example, Jews feel that the following text indicates that man’s soul will not die because nothing that God creates will ever cease to exist:

“14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him. 15 Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account.” Ecc 3

Notice also that verse 15 seems to indicate that all things have already been in existence. In other words, our souls existed before our bodies were born. You may think this was some new-age idea, or a pagan Roman idea, but it actually is Jewish.

Here is another passage they use to support the doctrine of resurrection through reincarnation:

“7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.” Ecc 1


The SDA belief about death and the soul is very close, if not identical to, the Sadducees of Jesus day.

These were the two major Jewish views of thought at that time. The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection (Mtt 22:23) or the existence of the soul after death. They did not believe these things because they did not support the Jewish oral tradition (law). The Pharisees, on the other had, believed in the resurrection, the conditional immortality of the soul, and the oral tradition. Many of them also believed in Jesus as the messiah (Acts 15:5).

Also, an interesting note, the Sadducees were considered by most mainstream Jews as apostates and most of their beliefs died out after the destruction of the temple in 70AD. All modern Jews descend from the Pharisees, or Hakamim as they call themselves, since they believe the term "Pharisee" was actually a term which was used for those Jews that were deemed to be "extremists".

.....I just think that we many times attribute Christian teachings that we don’t like or believe in to Greek or pagan origins when they actually originated from Israel.
The only thing I removed was where the ..... appears in the above quote that didn't affect the post whatsoever.

Now to place the relevant portion of Bob Pickle's post here:

quote:

POSTED ORIGINALLY BY BOB PICKLE:

RE: Jewish teachings. It has been my understanding that the Pharisees who believed in consciousness in death got that from Platonic philosophy.

Vol. 1 of Froom's Conditionalist Faith goes into the subject in depth. He cites intertestmental Jewish works that strayed from the old paths, and works that still taught the truth on the question. It seems that it was particularly the Jews in Alexandria that went astray.

The false concepts on death started penetrating Christianity later rather than early, as far as their writings indicate. It seems hard for me to imagine that these later Christian writers got their ideas from Jews rather than Greeks.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/09/03 12:14 AM

quote:

RE: Jewish teachings. It has been my understanding that the Pharisees who believed in consciousness in death got that from Platonic philosophy.

That may or may not be true, but that is not what Jews currently state.

quote:

The false concepts on death started penetrating Christianity later rather than early, as far as their writings indicate. It seems hard for me to imagine that these later Christian writers got their ideas from Jews rather than Greeks.

You may want to look at this from a scriptural point of view as well. Many like to rewrite history to support their own beliefs, but I feel scripture is the best historical document we have.

So if the concept of life after death was introduced to Israel during the Roman era, why would Israel know or understand that they could bring someone's soul back from the death long before Rome existed?

“8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name." 9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?" 10 Saul swore to her by the LORD , "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this." 11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said. 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!" 13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a spirit [1] coming up out of the ground." 14 "What does he look like?" he asked. "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do." 16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors-to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines." 20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.” 1 Sam 28

Notice that it was a common understanding that spirits (souls) of dead people were not really gone. Evidentially, this was such a big problem that they had all the mediums expelled from the Jewish community before this time, vs 3.

So it must have been understood that spirits were not dead and could be brought back for Samuel to have expelled mediums from the community and for Saul to find one to bring Samuel back.

Another very interesting point of this story is that Samuel (while he was a dead spirit) supported God’s plan and told Saul what the Lord wanted him to hear. That means that it was not by the power of the devil that Samuel was a dead spirit. And we know you cannot serve both God and Satan at the same time (Matt 6:24). So Samuel being alive as a spirit was supported by the Lord.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/09/03 12:21 AM

Bob, if you read the story of Saul and Samuel again you will see that the dead Samuel deed indeed support what the Lord had been trying to tell Saul for sometime. In fact, God used Samuel to communicate this to Saul.

Scripture indicates in many places that someone cannot support God and support Satan at the same time. So you are left with these options to explain this story:

1. It was an evil angel or Satan impersonating Samuel that was working for God or supporting what He wanted done.

2. God actually raised Samuel to communicate to Saul

3. God had one of His angels impersonate Saul to deliver His message to him

4. It was actually Samuel’s spirit communicating to Saul


Unfortunately Bob, your option that and evil angel would be there doing God’s work is not feasible and is contrary to scripture.
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/09/03 03:07 PM

Lobo,

Looks like from what Daryl wrote above, this is the wrong place for your post. If you move it over to that other thread, I'll move my response there as well.

The idea that the dead aren't dead dates back to Eden, when Satan told Eve that she would not really die. It was a key concept underlying all pagan religions. And since the Israelites didn't eradicate all of that, it is no wonder that some in Israel were still consulting the "dead."

The reason I said the "dead" is because of Num. 25:2; Ps. 106:28; and 1 Cor. 10:20. Since the "dead know not anything," then the "dead" are really demons in disguise, according to these three texts. Which is why God forbade people to talk to the "dead."

Witches who work for Satan could not have the power to bring a prophet of God back from the dead.

"Samuel" came up, not down from heaven.

"Samuel" gave no hope in his rebuke. Why? Because the devil leads one on into sin, and then down the road goads one into despair. The message given came from beneath, not from above.

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm and http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm contain 411 verses that support the views of Luther, Wycliffe, Tyndale, the Anabaptists, and many Anglicans on this topic.
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/09/03 03:13 PM

To repeat from my last post, "Samuel" was an evil angel who was not doing God's work, for the reasons stated above.

John Gill was a learned Baptist commentator, who believed that the dead are not dead. Even he thought "Samuel" was a demon. Here are his comments:
quote:
Ver. 15. And Samuel said to Saul, why hast thou disquieted me to bring me up? &c.] This makes it a clear case that this was not the true Samuel; his soul was at rest in Abraham?s bosom, in the state of bliss and happiness in heaven, and it was not in the power of men and devils to disquiet it; nor would he have talked of his being brought up, but rather of his coming down, had it been really he; much less would he have acknowledged that he was brought up by Saul, by means of a witch, and through the help of the devil:
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/10/03 06:16 AM

Bob, I understand your position, but you just have not been able to explain why the devil impersonating Samuel would say:

“Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors-to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

Please notice that the devil here is perfectly supporting what God had told Saul in the past and what God wanted Saul to know. So there is no refuting the fact that whoever this “spirit” was, was IN FACT, doing God’s work or supporting God’s plan.

So please explain why the devil would be supporting God’s plan? If you can’t your conclusions are suspect because the fact is that the devil has never supported God’s work or plan. If this was truly the devil he would have stated something different to try and mess up God’s plan, yet he did not, why?
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/09/03 10:31 PM

The devil would obviously and gleefully support anything that God says that is in line with the devil's own desires, such as was in the case of what would happen to both Saul and his son.
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/10/03 02:26 PM

I agree with Daryl.

Further, we have 1 Kings 22:22, 23 and 2 Chr. 18:21, 22 where a demon speaking through false prophets brought about the death of Ahab, a result that in God's mind was a just punishment for his deeds.

In both cases, the king listened to a demon, and that resulted in his death. Yet that death could still be looked upon as a judgment of God.

Similarly,
quote:
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
God isn't in cahoots with the devil. Yet God's judgments coming upon sinners because they choose rather to listen to lies rather than truth is a common occurence.
quote:
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/11/03 06:12 AM

quote:

In both cases, the king listened to a demon, and that resulted in his death. Yet that death could still be looked upon as a judgment of God.
And yet in this case Saul had already not followed God’s instructions and the “demon” was reminding him of that fact. So in reality, all the “demon” in this case was doing was reminding Saul that he had been disobedient to God.

Now what you and Daryl both don’t seem to understand is that this “demon” also made a prophecy of future events. He stated that Saul and his sons would be dead the next day (verse 19). And guess what, what the “demon” prophesied about Saul came true, 1 Sam 31:3, 6.

And also guess what, when someone prophesies and it comes true, THAT is the biblical sign that they are a true prophet, Deut. 18:22.

So what you are telling me is that not only did the devil or demon support God by telling Saul he had been disobedient to God, but that the devil or demon was also a true prophet according to scripture?

Wow! Seems to me that you guys are digging a hole here that you are not going to be able to get out of.

Now you have to explain why the demon would support God’s plan and tell Saul he had been disobedient, and also how a demon would be able to predict the future by his or Satan’s power?
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/11/03 02:52 PM

quote:
And also guess what, when someone prophesies and it comes true, THAT is the biblical sign that they are a true prophet, Deut. 18:22.
Sure, that's one sign, but that's not the only one. False prophets do get it right sometimes too.
quote:
Deut. 13:1-3 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams:...
Even today there are occultists and new agers that are correct in some of their predictions, just like the above passage warns about.
quote:
So what you are telling me is that not only did the devil or demon support God by telling Saul he had been disobedient to God, but that the devil or demon was also a true prophet according to scripture?
Neither Daryl nor I said such a thing.
quote:
Now you have to explain why the demon would support God?s plan and tell Saul he had been disobedient, ...
I already did. The devil was trying to drive Saul to despair.

He hates even his own. He leads them into sin, patting them on the back, and then he shows them their sins in all their magnitude, driving them to despair.
quote:
... and also how a demon would be able to predict the future by his or Satan?s power?
It was a self-fulfilling prophesy. By making Saul so distraught, it incapacitated this 70 to 80-year-old man so that he couldn't effectively lead the army of Israel the next day. Without a good leader in good spirits, the Israelites couldn't fight the battle as well, and thus lost miserably.

When you have 411 Bible texts that support the idea that death is a sleep, you have to look at this passage differntly than you would if you had never read any of those 411 texts.

And even among those who believe that the dead are not dead, you still have folk like John Gill who thought "Samuel" was Satan. Here is another quote from another commentary:
quote:
To his imagination, even though it was Satan, who to blind his eyes took on him the form of Samuel, as he can do of an angel of light. (1599 Geneva Bible Footnotes)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/12/03 06:39 AM

quote:

It was a self-fulfilling prophesy. By making Saul so distraught, it incapacitated this 70 to 80-year-old man so that he couldn't effectively lead the army of Israel the next day. Without a good leader in good spirits, the Israelites couldn't fight the battle as well, and thus lost miserably.
Bob, I have enjoyed our discussion here, but I have to say that your argument related to this text is uncharacteristically weak. I’m confident that any non-biased reader of this post would see that your rationalization of this text is very weak support.

You are basically saying that the devil impersonated Samuel and told Saul the truth that God wanted him to hear because he (devil) wanted to make him depressed. You are also saying that the devil was able to very specifically and accurately predict what would happen to Saul by shear luck. In addition, you are also indicating that the bible test of a true prophet that I indicated is not enough either, even though it was specifically used for the test of some bible prophets.

Wow! I don’t know what else to say about this. Maybe that you should rethink your position. There are other ways to look at this text and still support your Sadducee view of death. You could have stated that this was an angel of God impersonating Samuel to deliver God’s message. That would have been much more feasible and consistent with scripture.

Anyway, as it is clear to me that you really don’t have any reasonable explanation for the devil impersonating Samuel in this manner, I don’t think there is anything else to say on this topic.

Maybe we should just move on to other texts?


Since you believe death is a sleep, can you please provide me some proof that death is a sleep for the mind/soul/spirit? In my understanding, scripture only indicates that death is a sleep for the body, not the soul or spirit.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/11/03 07:26 PM

Lobo,

Just as Jean Dixon had done, so the devil does; they both make an educated guess as to what will happen. The only difference is that the devil and his fallen angels (demons) as invisible beings is actually there consequently knows what is happening, what is being planned, and in the case of Saul, the condition of both Saul and his army and leaders and the condition of the enemy army and its leaders. The devil and his demons can, therefore, make an excellent guess as to what will happen, and can also communicate their guess disguised as Samuel, as was done in the case of Saul's approach to the Witch of Endor.

This will obviously become more apparent when you realize that the dead are dead and don't exist in any ofrm of a conscious state either in heaven or in whatever concept you may have of hell.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/11/03 08:26 PM

Daryl, with all due respect, I don’t believe God leaves things up to guesses and Jean Diction has never and could never predict such a specific thing as for Saul and his sons to die on the very same day. To predict something like that with millions of variables is outside the realm of coincidence.

However, like I previously stated, you can believe that it was actually and angel of God giving Saul the bad news and still maintain a Sadducee view of death and the soul.

So I guess I will ask you, why could this have not been an angel of God?
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/12/03 06:29 AM

My views are not Saduceean. They denied a resurrection. I do not.

We can move on to other texts. But keep in mind that the view I gave is one endorsed by competent biblical scholars who do not agree with me on the subject of death.

As far as the soul and spirit go, what must first be done is to determine what the soul and spirit is. The Greek and Hebrew words are nephesh, psuche, ruach, neshamah, and pneuma.

For starters, take a look at Num 9:6, 7, and Haggai 2:13. In these verses, the Hebrew word for "soul" is translated "dead body." There is no separate word for "dead" in these texts.

There are situations like this all through the Bible. For example, "man became a living soul." But that's not the first time the Hebrew for "living soul" appears. We also have it in Gen. 1, translated "living creature," and referring to animals and sea life.

So, in light of the above, where do you think the souls of animals go when they die?

Numbers and Haggai. That's a pretty good spread. Thus in Haggai's time "soul" meant about the same that it did in Moses' time.

And John in Rev. 16:3 calls the whales "living souls." So from the first Bible writer to the last Bible writer, "soul" had the same meaning.

As far as the spirit goes, Eccl. 3:19 states emphatically that mankind and animals have the same ruach. Thus, even as they can both be called "living souls," there is no difference in their spirits.

Peter, the alleged first pope, said in Acts 2:29 and 34 that David never went to heaven. I asked a priest about this. He told me that that was the Hebrew way of looking at it, and I guess he meant that that is the Bible way of looking at it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/14/03 08:31 PM

Bob,
the term Psyche—is also used many times to indicate an immortal soul, Matt. 10.28; 16.26; 22.37; Luke 2.35; 12.19; 21.19; Acts 2.27; 4.32; 1 Thess. 5.23; Rev. 6.9 --to cite but a few examples. If the word was ever intended to mean something other than what the Greeks themselves understood it to mean, then the NT would SPECIFICALLY define that, since it was written for them.

Next, notice that the breath of a man is stated as different than his spirit:

“12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.
13 Who appointed him over the earth? Who put him in charge of the whole world?
14 If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, 15 all mankind would perish together and man would return to the dust” Job 34

Also, Psa. 104.29; 146.3,4; Job 34.14,15; Gen. 7.21,22; Eccl. 3.19-21; 9.3-10 are related to the effects of death ON THE BODY, but where do these texts say anything about the soul?!!
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/15/03 04:23 PM

How then do you explain the text I cited from Rev. 16? If John's understanding of psuche was the same as the Greeks, and if he believed in the immortality of the soul, why did he say that "every living soul DIED that was in the sea"?

The text you cite from Job 34 uses both ruach and nashamah. Please consider:
quote:
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Both words are likewise used here, and are basically considered synonyms in this text.

Which is it that would have consciousness in death? The breath? Or the spirit that stays in our nose?
quote:
Also, Psa. 104.29; 146.3,4; Job 34.14,15; Gen. 7.21,22; Eccl. 3.19-21; 9.3-10 are related to the effects of death ON THE BODY, but where do these texts say anything about the soul?!!
What about Num. 9 where "soul" is translated "dead body"? Thus, to the Bible writers, when you talk about the body, you ARE talking about the soul. At least this is so when using one of several Bible definitions for "soul."
quote:
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Another definition for nephesh is "life." Here in this text we are told that the nephesh or "soul" is in the blood.

Thus the soul lives in the blood, and the spirit lives in the nose.

[ July 16, 2003, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pickle ]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/16/03 02:21 AM

Bob, if there is no soul that is separate from the body at death, why would Jesus say that someone can kill the body but not the soul? If the body is killed, and the soul not killed (becuase Jesus states it can't be in this instance), then the soul is alive separate from the body.


“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matt 10:28
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/16/03 02:18 PM

quote:
If the body is killed, and the soul not killed (becuase Jesus states it can't be in this instance), then the soul is alive separate from the body.
Not necessarily. We need to read the Bible with a biblical world view, not with the world view of Plato.

Do you think that perhaps Jesus was using the definition of "life" for the word "soul" here? If that were so, then He would be saying that while man may be able to kill our bodies, man cannot destroy us permanently, for there is a resurrection. Man can't destroy us in the ultimate sense, but God can.

But God can? Do you believe what this text says, Lobo? Do you believe that God can and will kill the soul in hell fire? If you do believe this text, then you do not believe in the innate immortality of the soul, and you believe that the wicked will become ashes one day, and will never be anymore.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/16/03 05:59 PM

quote:

Not necessarily. We need to read the Bible with a biblical world view, not with the world view of Plato.
Actually, this is a biblical view, one held by Israel for a long time and also port of their oral tradition dating back long before Plato.
In fact, that is why when Jesus told the story of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 that none of his disciples batted an eye or questioned Him about it; because it was a common understanding among Jews. No contrast this story to one of Jesus others like when He stated that nothing a man ate could make him unclean. In that instance they questioned Jesus to the point where Jesus called them “dull”. The difference was that Jesus appeared to be saying something contrary to their current understanding, and so they questioned him about it.

This fact makes it very clear that what Jesus was saying in Luke 16 was not contrary to their understanding or they would have questioned Him.


quote:

Do you think that perhaps Jesus was using the definition of "life" for the word "soul" here? If that were so, then He would be saying that while man may be able to kill our bodies, man cannot destroy us permanently, for there is a resurrection. Man can't destroy us in the ultimate sense, but God can.
Honestly, I think this is reasonable. However, as we have been discussing, the term “soul” had more than one meaning and it is probably not possible to know exactly what Jesus meaning or usage was in this context.


quote:

But God can? Do you believe what this text says, Lobo? Do you believe that God can and will kill the soul in hell fire? If you do believe this text, then you do not believe in the innate immortality of the soul, and you believe that the wicked will become ashes one day, and will never be anymore.
Yes sir. I never stated that I believe the soul cannot die or is inherently immortal. All evil will die and be put out of existence in the lake of fire. With hell and death also destroyed at that time it would not be possible for the souls of non-believers to live on. However, this does not mean that a persons soul cannot live on outside the body until that time. Like Israel, I believe that man’s soul has conditional immortality in that God grants it until the lake of fire.
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/17/03 03:08 PM

quote:
In fact, that is why when Jesus told the story of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 that none of his disciples batted an eye or questioned Him about it;...
Of course, the text doesn't say whether they batted an eye or not. Just like it doesn't say whether they batted an eye when Jesus told the other parable in the same chapter, a parable some might use to say that embezzling is commendable if you're going to be fired.

How literally are you going to take this parable? Do disembodied souls or spirits have eyes, chests, fingers, tongues? Can they feel cool water? If so, why need a resurrection?

Why didn't the rich man ask for a bucket? Why only a finger dipped in cool water? What good would that do?

Where was hell at that point? Where was Abraham's bosom? I've heard different views, and I want to hear yours.
quote:
However, as we have been discussing, the term "soul" had more than one meaning and it is probably not possible to know exactly what Jesus meaning or usage was in this context.
The key is to find a verse that unequivocally uses the definition that your present thinking requires.

For 157 verses that don't fit that definition, see http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm.
quote:
With hell and death also destroyed at that time it would not be possible for the souls of non-believers to live on.
Do you believe hell is the grave, or something else?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/17/03 07:27 PM

quote:

How literally are you going to take this parable? Do disembodied souls or spirits have eyes, chests, fingers, tongues? Can they feel cool water? If so, why need a resurrection?
I believe it’s the concepts we are talking about, not the specifics of the story. In other words, the concept of heaven and hell and the soul after death. If you think these concepts were incorrect, then please answer me why Jesus would teach a moral concept by using immoral or inaccurate scriptural concepts? In other words, would Jesus teach a scriptural truth by using unscriptural truths?

If the concept of heaven and hell in scripture is contrary to the concepts Jesus indicated in His story, why would he teach falsehoods like that?


quote:

Where was hell at that point? Where was Abraham's bosom? I've heard different views, and I want to hear yours.
Go to the post on this site referring to “Hell” and you will get your answer. Hell is where some evil angel are being held, where Jesus sent the demon He took out of the man, where he stated that the soul can be killed, and where the demons come out of at the end mentioned in Revelation. It is also called the “abyss” or “bottomless Pit”.
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/18/03 02:13 PM

quote:
I believe it's the concepts we are talking about, not the specifics of the story.
Agreed.

The question is how to differentiate the concepts from the specifics. I believe the concepts being taught are two:
  1. No changing sides after death; no second chance.
  2. Those that don't believe the Bible won't believe no matter what.
The rest of the details are specifics that might not be so.
quote:
In other words, the concept of heaven and hell and the soul after death.
Yet the parable was not designed to teach these things. Those things weren't the "moral of the story."

If we agree that the specifics are false, and if it is questionable which details are specifics, then we really should not use this parable to prove our point. If spirits really don't have body parts, and if they don't particularly like cool water, then we can't use this parable to support the idea of consciousness in death.

I see you don't ascribe to the view that hell had two compartments prior to the cross, and that Abraham and Lazarus were in the good part, while the rich man was in the bad part.

Under http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm#hades I have 8 texts that suggest that the body goes to hell at death. How do you explain the most obvious ones?

Eccl. 9:10 says that there is no knowledge in sheol. How can it be said that there is no knowledge in hell if folk are conscious there?

Why does Job 24:19, 20 say that worms bring about decay in sheol, hell? Why does Ps. 49:14 say that the dead decay in sheol, hell? Why does Ezek. 32:27 say that those in sheol have heads and use swords as pillows?

I believe, from these Bible verses, that sheol or hell is none other than the grave, which is exactly why the KJV translated "hell" as the grave in these verses.
Posted By: marcel

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/18/03 02:56 PM

The fact is that while there are more passages in the Bible supporting soul sleep for the dead there are also a number of passages supporting soul immortality. The standard SDA defence is to come up with convoluted explanations re the latter.

Judaism does not dwell upon the state of the dead much. They say that we should not ponder much upon it as it is God's business. Perhaps we should take a leaf out of their book?

Where the Bible is clear, let us be certain. Where the Bible is unclear, let us be tentative instead. The state of the dead is after all not a matter of salvation, is it?

I believe that the weight of Biblical evidence is towards soul sleep but I have no argument with Christians who beleive in soul immortality.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/18/03 05:02 PM

I believe that this is a salvation issue topic in that a wrong belief in this opens the door to other deceptions such as when somebody appears, such as Hitler, who says he or she is having a wonderful time in heaven, and continues to say that everybody will be there as God is too loving a person to condemn anybody. Those of us here may not necessarily believe such an obvious deception, but how many professing or nominal Christians will? It is therefore a means of deceiving people into a false security of being heaven bound no matter how they live on this earth.

A wrong understandign on this is why spiritualism is flourishing today, and will play a major role in the final deceptions just prior to the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/19/03 06:42 AM

quote:

The question is how to differentiate the concepts from the specifics. I believe the concepts being taught are two:
1. No changing sides after death; no second chance.
2. Those that don't believe the Bible won't believe no matter what.
The rest of the details are specifics that might not be so.
Then how do you explain Jesus using details that are contrary to biblical truth?


quote:

If we agree that the specifics are false, and if it is questionable which details are specifics, then we really should not use this parable to prove our point. If spirits really don't have body parts, and if they don't particularly like cool water, then we can't use this parable to support the idea of consciousness in death.
Agreed. But if the spirit being alive after death is a falsehood taught by pagans throughout the centuries, why would Jesus perpetuate this non-biblical idea by using it in a story? Can you name another story where Jesus used non-biblical ideas or ideas that were in direct conflict with scripture to teach other ideas that were consistent with scripture?


quote:

I see you don't ascribe to the view that hell had two compartments prior to the cross, and that Abraham and Lazarus were in the good part, while the rich man was in the bad part.
No, where is that stated in scripture? Luke 16 states heaven, not hell for Lazarus.


quote:

Under http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm#hades I have 8 texts that suggest that the body goes to hell at death. How do you explain the most obvious ones?
Sorry, but I don’t understand what you are asking? Please clarify.


quote:

Eccl. 9:10 says that there is no knowledge in sheol. How can it be said that there is no knowledge in hell if folk are conscious there?

Why does Job 24:19, 20 say that worms bring about decay in sheol, hell? Why does Ps. 49:14 say that the dead decay in sheol, hell? Why does Ezek. 32:27 say that those in sheol have heads and use swords as pillows?

I believe, from these Bible verses, that sheol or hell is none other than the grave, which is exactly why the KJV translated "hell" as the grave in these verses.
I guess you missed this text? Isaiah 14:9-11


Also, you did not address the issue of the “abyss”?

“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell [tartaroo], and delivered [them] into chains of darkness [zophos], to be reserved unto judgment;” 2 Pet 2:4


“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness [zophos] unto the judgment of the great day.” Jude 1:6


“tartaroo” – “the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews” (Strongs)
“zophos” – “darkness, blackness, the darkness of the nether world” (Strongs)

So from these two texts we see that hell is a dark place that at least some demons (fallen angels) are held (chained) until the judgment.
Now according to Strongs this placed mentioned in these two texts above is literal and where demons and people (souls) are right now.


Now some may say that this place is not literal now. However, when we look at other scripture we will see that that idea just isn’t true.
“And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep [abussos].” Luke 8:31

“abussos “ - “bottomless, unbounded, the abyss, the pit, of Orcus, a very deep gulf or chasm in the lowest parts of the earth used as the common receptacle of the dead and especially as the abode of demons” (Strongs)


Some may say that the “abyss” the demon was afraid to be sent to in this passage above was this earth. However, that idea has little merit as the demon in question was already on this earth talking to Jesus. In addition, if this idea were true than Jesus would be made a liar as Jesus agreed to not send the demon into the “abyss”, and the pigs Jesus actually sent the demon into were also on this earth. So if the “abyss” is this earth, Jesus, in fact, would have sent the demon to the abyss, contrary to what He promised.


So it’s clear from this passage that the “abyss” is not this earth and that demons are sent there.
Now according to Strongs, the abyss is the same thing mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6, which is HELL. However, to further prove that the “abyss”, “Pit”, and “Hell” are the same thing I will post more scriptural evidence:
“Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.” Isa 14:15

“I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.” Eze 31:16

So now that we have established that Hell, the pit, and the abyss are the same place and that some demons have been sent there being held against their will until judgment, let’s look at if people are being held there as well:
“The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:” 2 Pet 2:9
Notice that Peter uses the very same language for people as he did for angels? Angels are “reserved” in hell for judgment (2 Pet 2:6), and people are “reserved” for judgment in this text above. So since we have the same language used we can conclude that they are in the same place, hell.


Now combine these scriptural facts with what Jesus stated about hell, and I think we have a very solid case for the existence of hell now where evil angels and people are being “reserved” for judgment: Matt 5:22, 29-30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:33; Mark 9:43, 45-47; Luke 12:5, 16:23.
Notice that Jesus literally states that people will be SENT to hell in these texts.
So based on LITERAL scripture it is clear that hell is a real literal place where both angels (demons) and evil people are right this very minute waiting for the judgment.
Now that we have established these facts, let’s look at some other interesting facts about this topic:

“For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,” 1 Pet 3:18-21

Notice that this text indicates that while Jesus was dead (after the cross) He went to preach to the “spirit” in prison. Notice that these were spirits of people who had died long ago during the time of Noah. Although this text doesn’t say this “prison” is hell or the abyss, Paul say that that is where Jesus went when he died, the pit or hell (Rom 10:7).

So we see that Jesus went to the abyss, pit, or hell while he was dead to preach to those “spirits” who were there.

Now when we look at the end time events it ties this truth all together:

“And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit [abussos]. And he opened the bottomless pit [abussos]; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.” Rev 9:1-2

So we see that the demons, who have been held in hell, abyss, or the pit come out of it during the end time events. This again shows that it is a literal place now in existance.


So Bob, with this in mind I have a few questions for you:
1. Where is the abyss that the demon in Luke 8:31 was afraid to be sent?
2. Where is the dark place that at least some demons have already been cast mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6?
3. If the soul does not exist separate from the body, why did Jesus imply that It can in Matt 10:28?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/18/03 07:05 PM

Marcel,
thank you for your post, I totally agree. In fact, I actually do not believe there is enough evidence to support a doctrine either for or against the soul living separately from the body. My only point in addressing it here was to make the point that if we are honest we would all agree that it is really not as clear-cut as some my want to believe.


Daryl,

with all due respect, I believe your statements are an example of what is wrong with Adventism today. We are not saved by our knowledge, but by our relationship with Christ. Knowing that the soul does or does not live on in spirit after death does not allow us to be venerable to “deception”. The possibility of being deceived implies that we are saved by not being deceived through our knowledge of the “correct” doctrine.

Now since scripture indicates that the state of the dead is not part of the gospel and not a requirement to be saved, this “knowledge” or doctrine has no bearing on our salvation.

So what I’m saying is that if we have a relationship with Jesus we cannot be deceived because it is Jesus who makes our decisions, not us by our own “knowledge”.

So what you are implying is that if we believe in the life of the soul after death that even though we do have a saving relationship with Jesus that we still can be lost because of this inaccurate belief. Sorry my friend, but that is just not true.

Now having stated this, let me clarify what many believe in relation to this issue. You have the misunderstanding that people who believe in life after death also believe that the soul/spirit can visit this earth as well. That idea I believe comes from EGW, but is extremely inaccurate.

Even Luke 16 indicates that the dead cannot return to earth or even know what is going on here. So in reality, even those who believe in life after death would not be deceived by your example of Hitler.

Now I have tried on this forum to not ascribe any beliefs to SDA’s that they don’t openly profess, so please do others the same courtesy.

Also, as I have stated, I think implying that knowledge can prevent someone from being deceived is a falsehood and implies we are saved by our knowledge, which is another falsehood. The devil has more knowledge and understanding than all of us combined and if it really was about being deceived and our own knowledge, we would all be lost.

So what we know, or think we know, has little bearing on our salvation other than the gospel of Jesus Christ and that relationship.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/18/03 09:40 PM

My concern is that a Christian listening and being deceived by an evil impersonator pretending to be their deceased Christian brother or sister, husband or wife, could result in their making wrong choices that could affect their relationship with Jesus Christ and consequently their eternal fate in the same way that the devil impersonating an angel of God tried to tempt Jesus into sinning during his 40 days in the wilderness where He was sent to be tempted of the devil. Look what happened in the case of King Saul who thought he was communicating with the deceased prophet Samuel who in reality was an evil angel, possibly Satan himself, impersonating Samuel. If he had repented before God instead of seeking to communicate with Samuel through the sinful medium of the Witch of Endor, both he and his son may have been spared, and Israel may have been victorious against their enemy.

Wrong beliefs can lead to wrong decisions which can lead to eternal consequences such as in the case of King Saul.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/19/03 01:13 AM

quote:

My concern is that a Christian listening and being deceived by an evil impersonator pretending to be their deceased Christian brother or sister, husband or wife, could result in their making wrong choices that could affect their relationship with Jesus Christ and consequently their eternal fate in the same way that the devil impersonating an angel of God tried to tempt Jesus into sinning during his 40 days in the wilderness where He was sent to be tempted of the devil.
Ok, and who’s power did Jesus use to refute Satan, or do anything on this earth for that matter? God the father, not his own (John 12:49). So my point is that the fight is between God and Satan and it is not through any knowledge or strength that we have on our own that allows us to stand against the devil.

So in your scenario above, even if a person felt that the dead were dead, it would be possible for Satan to convince them otherwise. The only thing that would then save them is their relationship with Jesus and him delivering them from that situation.


quote:

Look what happened in the case of King Saul who thought he was communicating with the deceased prophet Samuel who in reality was an evil angel, possibly Satan himself, impersonating Samuel. If he had repented before God instead of seeking to communicate with Samuel through the sinful medium of the Witch of Endor, both he and his son may have been spared, and Israel may have been victorious against their enemy.
That is really not accurate. Saul was killed because he did not obey God and do what He wanted. The “spirit” or whoever that was only reiterated what God had already instructed Saul to do and the punishment he would receive.

So it was not about Saul consulting with the dead that sealed his fate, but it was Saul not obeying God and taking “plunder” from the Amalekites that sealed Saul’s fate (see 1 Sam 15 and 1 Sam 28:16-19).

So the fact is that Saul’s fate had nothing to do with consulting the a witch and everything to do with not wiping out the Amalekites and taking plunder that he was not supposed to. THAT is why Saul and his sons died.


It appears that you take too much stock in one’s own abilities or knowledge to save himself instead of the Lord. This is the outcome of thinking that your own strength, knowledge, or abilities can prevail against evil.
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/19/03 02:06 AM

quote:
... why would Jesus perpetuate this non-biblical idea by using it in a story?
He didn't say he was talking about souls or spirits, but if He were, why did He say that they have body parts and like cool water when they don't?
quote:
Can you name another story where Jesus used non-biblical ideas or ideas that were in direct conflict with scripture to teach other ideas that were consistent with scripture?
Yes. Like I said before, the other parable in the same chapter can be taken to teach that cheating your employer is great, and your boss will commend you for it.
quote:
Luke 16 states heaven, not hell for Lazarus.
It does not. That's why some evangelicals, not me, equate Abraham's bosom and paradise with a good compartment of hell, where good folks were until Jesus arose from the dead.

The problem is that the same evangelicals will use the last part of Eccl. to prove that the spirit returns to God who gave it, which puts both good and bad in heaven prior to the cross. Thus while they say the souls of all went to hell before the cross, in another breath they'll use a verse that says that all spirits go to heaven at death.

Anyway, Lk. 16 doesn't say heaven.
quote:
Please clarify. ...

I guess you missed this text? Isaiah 14:9-11

Also, you did not address the issue of the "abyss"?
If you can see if you can first deal with the texts that put the body in hell at death. First deal with texts that use hades and sheol, and then we can deal with texts that use other words.

Otherwise, our discussion will get expanded again. You see, you brought up Lk. 16. That passage uses the word hades, and so I've raised the question of the meaning of that word. Tartarus is a totally different thing, and involves to some extent a study of the book of Enoch (Jude and Peter were quoting from there), and before we move on to that, we ought to finish hades.

As far as Mt. 10:28 goes, you said it sounded reasonable to render psuche there as "life."

One meaning for abussos is "sea." Whether that is what the demons meant, I don't know, but the sea was right there.
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/19/03 02:13 AM

Lobo,

I read your last post to Daryl. I can't say you put things as strongly as you did to me before, but you ought to consider that sometimes you just have your facts wrong.
quote:
1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
Saul did die because he sought counsel from the dead. That wasn't the only reason, but it most certainly was one of them.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/19/03 02:20 AM

quote:

It does not. That's why some evangelicals, not me, equate Abraham's bosom and paradise with a good compartment of hell, where good folks were until Jesus arose from the dead.
“22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.” Luke 16

“I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 8:11

So where is Abraham’s side? “IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN”.


quote:

If you can see if you can first deal with the texts that put the body in hell at death. First deal with texts that use hades and sheol, and then we can deal with texts that use other words.
Yes, good point, sorry.


Here you go:

“9 The grave [sheol] below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you- all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones- all those who were kings over the nations. 10 They will all respond,
they will say to you, "You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us."
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.” Isaiah 14
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/19/03 04:15 AM

It might be helpful if you switch from using a paraphrase to using a translation. The word in Lk. 16 is "bosom," not "side," from what I can tell. And I think if you look up all the verses that use the word translated "dead" in Is. 14:9, you'll find that your paraphrase's use of the word "spirits" is questionable. The typical word for "spirit" doesn't appear in the text.

Moreover, quoting a verse that maybe seems to say something different doesn't answer my question of how to interpret the texts that put the body in hell at death. I'd like you to explain to me what you think those texts I've cited say.

Regarding Abraham's bosom being in heaven, we have a contradiction here. "Samuel" came up from the earth, not down from heaven. On what basis are you putting Lazarus in heaven if Samuel wasn't there?

Would you agree that Mat. 8:11 is talking about after the resurrection, not after death?

[ July 19, 2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pickle ]
Posted By: marcel

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/20/03 03:34 PM

The truth is that the Bible is unclear about the state of the dead. Sure there are more passages supporting souls sleep than passages supporting soul immortality. That does not mean that the greater number of passages proves the former correct. Remember that the Sabbath is also not mentioned much in the NT.

Judaism doesn't even ponder upon the matter much. According to Jews what happens after death is God's business.

Should we not apply the rule that we must be certain about issues on which the Bible is clear but tentative on issues where the Bible is unclear?

I tend to beleive in souls sleep but won't argue the issue with somebody who believes in soul immortality. It is after all not a matter of salavation is it?
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/21/03 03:05 PM

There are likewise more passages that say we are justified by faith than ones that say we are justified by works, but the fact that James appears to say we are justified by works does not put the matter in doubt. We simply must explain the unclear texts by the clear, on every subject.

The fact that we have as many as 411 verses that support the idea of death being an unconscious sleep, and only a handful that folks use to support the contrary position, is significant.

Even on the subject of the Sabbath, there are more texts in the NT that speak of its sacredness than speak of Sunday's sacredness. Indeed, there are no texts that speak of Sunday's sacredness, or even that say that Sunday was a regular day for worship.

On the matter of death the Bible is not unclear, as in Ps. 146:4 and Eccl. 9:5, 6.

It can definitely be a matter of salvation, as it was for King Saul.

Also, Rev. 16:14 suggests that the final deception will have a spiritualism component. There we see spritualistic movements arising out of Catholicism, Protestantism, and paganism. The preoccupation with Marian apparitions would be the movement coming out of Catholicism, and the New Age movement, with its channelling of dead ascended masters, would be the movement coming out of paganism.

What passages to you make the matter less than clear?
Posted By: Will

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/22/03 06:44 AM

This morning I was reading in 1 Samuel where Saul had gone to the medium (witch,spritist etc) to conjure up Samuel, and noticed a couple of things as follows:

1. We have a witch raising the dead when God can only do such things.

2. "Samuel" told Saul that he and his sons would die which seemed to be the case since Saul pierced himself with his own sword and his armorbearer followed.

3. Did Israel fall as was mentioned by "Samuel"

I will continue reading this evening but am curious since the Bible mentions that the Israelites fled from the Philistines.. I may have gotten off track but those were some of the points I noticed, and the point I am trying to find out if this was an evil spirit or not, and find out if what had been told to Saul had come true in regards to Isreal falling?

God Bless,
Will

[ July 21, 2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Will ]
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/21/03 10:50 PM

quote:
Posted by Bob Pickle:
Saul did die because he sought counsel from the dead. That wasn't the only reason, but it most certainly was one of them.
Excellent point, Bob, to which I noticed that Lobo didn't reply to. [Smile]

I would add to that the fact that his going to the witch instead of going to God in tears of repentance may very well have sealed his fate.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/22/03 01:53 AM

It’s clear from reading the passage about Saul and the witch of Edor that he sealed his fate from not obeying God. This was not related to his visits with the witch, but to his disobedience to God before Samuel’s death. Remember, before Samuel died he gave Saul the bad news that he was disobedient to God. In fact, if you read 1 Sam 15 you will see that Samuel told Saul that the kingdom would be taken from him in this passage, long before 1 Sam 28. In fact, Saul tried to repent and asked forgiveness, yet God would not accept it (vs 24-26).

So all the conjecture on the post about this issue is contrary to what is actually recorded in scripture. So here are the facts:

1. Saul was punished for not obeying God related to conquest of the Amalekites (1 Sam 15:17-19), not the witch of Endor.

2. Samuel gave Saul this bad news first in 1 Sam 15:23, 26.

3. God rejected Saul’s attempt at repentance in 1 Sam 15:24-26.

4. The spirit of Saul told Samuel the truth of what God did and was going to do; so the spirit predicted the future (1 Sam 28:19), something that the devil cannot do.

5. As Will pointed out, the devil cannot raise the dead; so this spirit was actually Samuel, or it was a heavenly angel there impersonating Samuel to help God’s plan.


So in reality, it appears that the truth of this story is much different than many want to believe.
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/22/03 05:12 AM

Lobo, it's like I said at what is presently the bottom of page 3, a post I assume you must have missed:
quote:
Lobo,

I read your last post to Daryl. I can't say you put things as strongly as you did to me before, but you ought to consider that sometimes you just have your facts wrong.
quote:
1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
Saul did die because he sought counsel from the dead. That wasn't the only reason, but it most certainly was one of them.
Could you please comment on this Scripture?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/23/03 06:06 AM

Bob, I guess I did miss that post. However, I never meant to imply that Saul asking guidance from a witch was ok with God or did not contribute to his demise. My point was, and that you have confirmed, is that Saul’s fate had already been sealed long before he went to the witch. So while that act was just another of his sins against God, God had already rejected Saul long before the witch incidence.

“24 Then Saul said to Samuel, "I have sinned. I violated the LORD's command and your instructions. I was afraid of the people and so I gave in to them. 25 Now I beg you, forgive my sin and come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD ."
26 But Samuel said to him, "I will not go back with you. You have rejected the word of the LORD , and the LORD has rejected you as king over Israel!" 1 Sam 15

So to say that Saul was rejected by God because of the witch would be inaccurate. It would also be inaccurate, as Daryl suggested, that Saul could just God to God and repent, because that is exactly what he tried to do and it was rejected by God.

So visiting the witch was one of the reasons Saul died, but it was only one and it was actually added on after Saul had already been rejected by God.
Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/23/03 01:14 AM

quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
4. The spirit of Saul told Samuel the truth of what God did and was going to do; so the spirit predicted the future (1 Sam 28:19), something that the devil cannot do.

5. As Will pointed out, the devil cannot raise the dead; so this spirit was actually Samuel, or it was a heavenly angel there impersonating Samuel to help God’s plan.


So in reality, it appears that the truth of this story is much different than many want to believe.
It might also have been the devil impersonating Samuel. As for this being a prediction of the future, it is possible that it was a prediction on the same level as when I predict that I will go to work tomorrow...

/Thomas
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/23/03 02:18 AM

quote:

It might also have been the devil impersonating Samuel. As for this being a prediction of the future, it is possible that it was a prediction on the same level as when I predict that I will go to work tomorrow...
When has the devil ever supported God’s plan, becuase that would be exaclty what he did here?

Does the devil have the ability to raise the dead?

You may know your going to work tomorrow because you have control over that. Now predict if I’m going to work tomorrow and you will be closer to what actually occurred.
Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/23/03 10:56 AM

quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
When has the devil ever supported God’s plan, becuase that would be exaclty what he did here?

Does the devil have the ability to raise the dead?

You may know your going to work tomorrow because you have control over that. Now predict if I’m going to work tomorrow and you will be closer to what actually occurred.
About the devil supporting Gods plan, well, I dont know, for what I know, it might have been God predicting the devils plan without interfearing in it...

The devil does not have the power to raise the dead, but I didnt claim he could do that either, think of it rather as the devil going to a costume party at the wiches house dressed as samuel...

You are right that I could predict going to work becourse its within my controll, just like the devil predicted the death of saul and his family becourse it was within his power to slay them unless God would protect them, which He obviously didnt do...

/Thomas
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/23/03 02:44 PM

Lobo,

If you look carefully at 1 Sam. 15:20-23, you'll see that Saul made no attempt at repentance. He denied that he had done anything wrong when told by a prophet of God that he had.

He only changed his tune after sentence had been handed down. That's not real repentance.

And even when he did change his tune in vs. 24, he passed the buck. That's not real repentance.

And his motivation for changing his tune was his public image, according to vs. 30. That's not real repentance.

1 Sam. 28:6 says that Saul enquired of the LORD, but the LORD didn't answer. And so he resorted to the witch.

1 Chr. 10:14 says:
quote:
And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.
Thus this text tells us that there was more that Saul could or should have done in 1 Samuel than he did. Repentance would have been one of those things.

Even after Saul was rejected as king on his return from fighting the Amalekites, the Holy Spirit came upon him, and he prophesied.

I think Daryl's original point is extremely valid. Those that don't believe what the Bible teaches about death will be in danger of being deceived by demons impersonating the dead.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/23/03 07:18 PM

quote:

I think Daryl's original point is extremely valid. Those that don't believe what the Bible teaches about death will be in danger of being deceived by demons impersonating the dead.
Then you believe we are saved by our knowledge and not by our relationship with Jesus. If we have a string relationship with Jesus is it possible that we can be deceived and lose our salivation while Jesus is in charge our life?

Your and Daryl’s position is one of works in that we are in control of our life and not Jesus. You also imply that it is we who fight with Satan and not Jesus.

I feel very sorry for the both of you. Sounds like the Laodicea church because you have a form of Godliness but seem to be denying it’s power in favor of your own power or knowledge.
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/24/03 04:47 PM

I don't appreciate you accusing Daryl and me of believing that we're saved by any other means than Jesus.
quote:
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Only Jesus saves. Knowledge doesn't. Works don't. But lack of knowledge can make it easier to take one's eyes off of Jesus. And be deceived. And be destroyed.

Those who reject the knowledge that the Bible gives regarding death are in grave danger.
quote:
2 thess. 2:10, 11 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/24/03 11:29 PM

[Thank You] Thank you, Bob, for an excellent reply to Lobo's post and unfounded accusation, which without your reply, I may have edited out.

That Bible text clearly answers to Lobo's accusation.

Knowledge begats relationship as does this Bible text:

quote:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
We could say that faith comes by knowledge and knowledge by the word of God.

But the one Bob provided is very clear on this point.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/25/03 01:36 AM

quote:

I don't appreciate you accusing Daryl and me of believing that we're saved by any other means than Jesus.
Sorry Bob, based on your post that was a question not an accusation.


quote:

Only Jesus saves. Knowledge doesn't. Works don't. But lack of knowledge can make it easier to take one's eyes off of Jesus. And be deceived. And be destroyed.
I disagree.

“3and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 18

Children have little knowledge and a lot of faith, which is how we are saved. So taking our eyes off Jesus is how we became deceived, not by our lack of knowledge.


quote:

Those who reject the knowledge that the Bible gives regarding death are in grave danger.
You are using circular logic. It’s those who don’t have faith or believe in the truth of Jesus that in danger. Remember, the devil have more knowledge and understanding than all of us put together, yet he will not be saved. Faith in Jesus, not faith in whatever knowledge we have is what saves us.


quote:

We could say that faith comes by knowledge and knowledge by the word of God.
You could say that, but I would think that would not be consistent with scripture. Satan has all the knowledge in the word and no faith whatsoever. So faith does not come from knowledge. Faith comes from an open heart and a willingness to accept the truth.
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/25/03 03:00 PM

I suggest you put your questions in the form of a question, rather than a statement. It would have been much better if you had asked, "Are you and Daryl saying ..." And your last paragraph was not a question at all.

The rest of your last post does not appear to specifically deal with Hosea 4:6 or 2 Thess. 2:10, 11. You have not provided any other meaning for these passages, and thus the point still stands. Hosea 4:6 says plainly that people will be lost because of lack of knowledge. There is something about knowledge of truth that aids us in maintaining faith in Christ.

Regarding the amount of knowledge children can have, I have 4 kids, the youngest of whom is 5. If you can ask them where the dead are, and they can tell you.

As far as 2 Thess. goes, that passage is referring to more than just the rejection of the truth of being saved by the blood of Jesus. It is also referring to the Sabbath, and I'll explain how.

Christians used to believe in Creation, that the pope is the antichrist, that Christ is the prince who makes the covenant in Dan. 9:27, and that Christians ought to keep the 10 Commandments. Today, many professed Christians now believe in evolution, that the antichrist is yet future, that the antichrist is the prince of Dan. 9:27, and that the law was nailed to the cross. Why the big change in their theology?

Going with evolution is an escape mechanism to avoid the Sabbath. If the world wasn't created in six days, then the Sabbath loses its meaning. If the antichrist is future, then the Sabbath is not referred to in Dan. 7:25. If it's the antichrst instead of Christ in Dan. 9:27, then we can get rid of a text that says that Christ only abolished the sacrifice and oblation, not the Sabbath. And if we nail the entire Decalogue to the cross, we can forget about the 4th precept of that code.

These strong delusions that God has sent to those who refuse to believe and love the truth are preparing the world for the lake of fire.

The rejection of Bible truth by many professed Christians is thus detrimental to their relationship with Christ. You cannot have a meaningful relationship with someone if you refuse to believe (and in the above example, do) what they say.

[ July 25, 2003, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pickle ]
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/28/03 02:37 PM

Lobo, here's a second post.

Did you ever share your thoughts on why "Samuel" came up from the earth if the Lazarus in the parable was really in heaven?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/28/03 11:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Pickle:
Lobo, here's a second post.

Did you ever share your thoughts on why "Samuel" came up from the earth if the Lazarus in the parable was really in heaven?
Because that is where his body was. You see, scripture indicates that the “sleep” of death is applied only to the body, not the spirit or soul. That is why when Jesus raised the woman in Luke 8:55 “her spirit returned” to her body. So conceivably this is the same thing that occurred with Samuel; his spirit returned to his body.

Why haven’t you answered my question of why the devil would impersonate Samuel only to help God our by telling Saul the truth and predicting future events?
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/29/03 03:40 PM

I can't answer your question because I don't accept the premise upon which that question is based: I don't believe Satan impersonated Saul only to help out God. Yet I did much earlier refer you to where a demon offered in a heavenly council to go and deceive Ahab by speaking through his prophets.

So are you suggesting that Samuel was resurrected? How did his body get from his grave over to Endor, a considerable distance?

So you don't think that Lk. 8:55 is referring to the breath of life?

Do you have a verse that says that the soul and spirit do not sleep at death, that the whole person is not unconscious in death? How do you explain Pr. 19:15, where a "soul" or nephesh is said to be hungry, if the "soul" is not the body itself in that particular verse?

Your statement regarding the soul or spirit not sleeping implies what you have yet to demonstrate from Scripture: that there is a conscious entity apart from the body called the "soul" or "spirit." What you need to find is a verse where one of the Greek or Hebrew words in question is used in such a way that one of the alternate definitions of these words (like "life") will not do.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/30/03 12:14 AM

quote:

I can't answer your question because I don't accept the premise upon which that question is based: I don't believe Satan impersonated Saul only to help out God. Yet I did much earlier refer you to where a demon offered in a heavenly council to go and deceive Ahab by speaking through his prophets.
Did the demon tell the truth at that time like in the case of Samuel?


quote:

Do you have a verse that says that the soul and spirit do not sleep at death, that the whole person is not unconscious in death?
Luke 8:54-55 ". . . he, however, took her by the hand and called, saying, 'Child arise!' And her spirit returned, and she rose immediately; and He gave orders for something to be given her to eat."
Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both the soul and the body in hell."
James 2:26 "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."
1 Kings 17:21,22 "Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the Lord, and said, 'O Lord my God, I pray to Thee, let this child's life return to him.' And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah, and the life of the child returned to him and he revived."


The term "death" which is "thanatas" in Greek, does not mean to be non-existent or unconscious, it rather means to be separated. Some examples:
Colossians 2:13 "And when you were dead (separated from God—not "unconscious") in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh . . . "
Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten."
The context of this verse is "under the sun." It is saying that the dead do not know anything that is going on "under the sun"(on earth) vss. 3, 6—after they die and are in Heaven. (Eccl. 12:7)

quote:

How do you explain Pr. 19:15, where a "soul" or nephesh is said to be hungry, if the "soul" is not the body itself in that particular verse?
How can a body (soul in your understanding) have thoughts and emotions?

INTELLIGENCE (1 Corinthians 2:11)
"For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God."

EMOTIONS (John 11:33)
"When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her, also weeping, He was deeply moved in spirit and was troubled."


quote:

Your statement regarding the soul or spirit not sleeping implies what you have yet to demonstrate from Scripture: that there is a conscious entity apart from the body called the "soul" or "spirit." What you need to find is a verse where one of the Greek or Hebrew words in question is used in such a way that one of the alternate definitions of these words (like "life") will not do.
Ok,

Revelation 6:9-11 "And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also."

Dead feel pain?
“5 "The dead are in deep anguish, those beneath the waters and all that live in them.
6 Death is naked before God; Destruction lies uncovered. Job 26:5-6


The spirits in the grave are “astir”:

“9 The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you- all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones- all those who were kings over the nations. 10 They will all respond,
they will say to you, "You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us." 11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.” Isaiah 14:9-11
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 07/31/03 07:29 AM

In Ahab's day, the demon was a lying spirit in order to deceive to convince Ahab to go to battle. The demon in Saul's day didn't have to deceive in that way in order to destroy Saul.

Let's examine the texts you refer to:
  1. Luke 8:54-55 Can easily refer to the breath of life.
  2. Matthew 10:28 Can easily refer to "life," one of the meanings of "soul."
  3. James 2:26 Can easily refer to the breath of life.
  4. 1 Kings 17:21,22 Must mean "life," since even your translation rendered "soul" as "life."
Notice that not one of these texts says that the soul or spirit is conscious after death. Not one says that the sort of spirit or soul that you presently believe in is not asleep.

So do you believe that Eccl. 12:7 means that even the spirits of the wicked in OT times went to heaven? Eccl. 12 doesn't say that it is only talking about the spirits of the righteous.

What is the difference between a disembodied spirit and a disembodied soul?

Eccl. 9 does not say that the dead only don't know anything about what's going on down here. But assume for a moment that you might be right. Do the angels in heaven know what's going on down here? Does God know? Why then don't the departed know? Are God and the angels keeping it all a big secret from them? Or are they spending all their time up in heaven sleeping? Is that why the spirits of the departed don't know what God and the angels know regarding things happening under the sun?

Paul, and other Bible writers, did repeatedly say that the dead are sleeping. I would think they might as well sleep in the grave than spend all their time sleeping in heaven.

Your translation's rendering of Jn. 11:33 is incorrect.

God made our brain in our physical bodies to have thoughts and emotions. Those that have had brain damage are impaired in this regard. If thoughts and emotions weren't based in our physical bodies, then brain damage would have no effect on us.

Why does Rev. 6 picture the souls under the altar? Because the blood of the sacrifices was poured at the base of the altar, and the life or soul is in the blood. Thus in Rev. 6 we have the life of the blood of sacrificed martyrs crying out to God, just like Abel's blood cried out to God.

Do you think that Abel's blood literally was talking? If not, then Rev. 6 should not be taken literally either.

Some scholars, says John Gill, have thought that the dead things of Job 26 are metals or minerals. As far as "deep anguish" goes, such a translation is a bit interpretative.

As far as Is. 14 goes, which do you really believe? Do you believe that the spirits go to grave at death, or do you believe, as you said earlier, that the spirit goes to God at death? It can't go to both places, can it?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 08/01/03 06:26 AM

quote:

In Ahab's day, the demon was a lying spirit in order to deceive to convince Ahab to go to battle. The demon in Saul's day didn't have to deceive in that way in order to destroy Saul.
Incorrect, Saul had already destroyed himself long before Samuel died. The demon did tell Saul anything new accept for to accurately predict Saul and his sons death. This is something that Satan cannot do.


As for the rest of your post, you can believe what you like and state translations are wrong if it doesn’t coincide with your ideas. However, I look at it from the big picture and overall what the understanding was among Israel and Jesus. Even the Jewish oral tradition supports this idea as well.

I do however admit that there really is not enough clear scripture to support either side with confidence. I freely admit this, yet even though there are many text that you need to explain aware or change the literal meaning, you refuse to.
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 08/01/03 03:12 PM

By "destroy" I meant "kill" or "die." Saul did not die before Samuel's death. The demon was trying to bring despair upon Saul, and he accomplished his purpose.

We must base our faith on God's Word. In doing so we need to ask ourselves what the Word is saying, and to do that we need to sometmes go back to the original manuscripts if a translation is in question.

quote:
... you refuse to.
Point out which texts you want me to address, and I'll do so. I've addressed each one you've brought up so far, as far as I know.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 08/02/03 08:25 PM

To answer your question Daryl, 'where are the dead?' the souls of the righteous dead are pictured as resting underneath the shelter of the bronze altar in God's temple in heaven, Revelation 6:9:
quote:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held . . .
The souls of the wicked dead are kept in some other place, awaiting judgment.

Although it seems clear that the righteous dead rest in an unconscious state until they are given their reward, it is not as clear from scripture that the same is true of the wicked. I'm out of time but I may come back later to write more.
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 08/03/03 04:25 AM

How interesting, Mark. When the souls of the martyrs are told to "rest yet" for a season, that could easily be understood to mean "sleep on."

In Mat. 26:45 and Mk. 14:41, the word for "rest" is associated with sleep. It doesn't have to refer to sleep, but I'm not sure what else it would refer to in Rev. 6:11 and 14:13.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 08/06/03 11:43 PM

quote:

By "destroy" I meant "kill" or "die." Saul did not die before Samuel's death. The demon was trying to bring despair upon Saul, and he accomplished his purpose.
Correct, but he did that by accurately predicting the future. Remember, doing this is a sign of a true prophet or certainly someone who is connected with God (angel, etc.).

You still have not been able to explain why the demon would tell Saul the truth, the outcome of which was to support God’s plan. Also, how a demon can predict the future? Both of these facts indicate that this was not a demon.

So it was either Samuel himself or an angel of God there to prophesy and support God’s plan.


quote:

Point out which texts you want me to address, and I'll do so. I've addressed each one you've brought up so far, as far as I know.
I mean you refuse to honestly admit that the issue is not clear-cut and there are texts that literally indicate the opposite of what you are stating, like these texts:


“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matt 10:28

“5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.” Luke 12:5

Here we have two texts that indicate that something can happen to the soul or some part of you AFTER your body is dead.


“18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, “ 1 Peter 3

“6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.” 1 Peter 4:6

Here we have two texts that indicate that the dead were preached to, while they were dead, and who did the preaching, which He was dead.


“1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” 2 Cor 5

“But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;” Phil 1:23

Clearly Paul felt that when he died he would go directly to heaven to be with God. Notice that the term used for “body” in 2 Cor 5:6-8 is “soma”, which means a literal human body or corpse.
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 08/07/03 02:37 PM

Lobo,

I don't recall if you already addressed this:
quote:
Deut. 13:1, 2 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Seems this passage acknowledges that false prophets inspired by Satan may just happen to get it right sometimes. Thus the devil could correctly "predict" Saul's demise the next day by uttering a self-fulfilling prophecy: By goading Saul to despair, Saul was kept from being his best, which brought on defeat.

But I think all this has already been said, perhaps more than once.
quote:
I mean you refuse to honestly admit that the issue is not clear-cut ...
When one has about 411 texts supporting a given position, it does seem clear cut. How many texts do you have?

RE: Mat. 10:28. I believe you already said that it would be reasonable to define "soul" as "life" here. Your exact comments were:
quote:
Honestly, I think this is reasonable. However, as we have been discussing, the term "soul" had more than one meaning and it is probably not possible to know exactly what Jesus meaning or usage was in this context.
If it isn't possible to know what Jesus meant, then you really can't use this text to say that the dead are conscious. In fact, the text doesn't even address that point.

RE: Lk. 12:5. The same is true about this verse, since it says the same thing as Mat. 10:28.

RE: 1 Peter 3:18, 19. I haven't ignored this one, for I don't think you've brought it up to me before. I don't recall you bringing up any of the following texts either.

Look at it closely. It says that Jesus went and preachED to those spirits BY the Holy Spirit. Jesus by the Holy Spirit preached through Noah to those lost souls before the Flood took place. The text doesn't say that He preached to them after they had died. Nor does it say that Jesus personally did the preaching.

1 Peter 4:6. This text is even clearer, in the English. The gospel was preached, past tense, to those that are dead, present tense.

RE: Php. 1:23. Paul made it plain when he would be with Christ in 1 Th. 4. He said that at the second coming the dead would rise, and the living would be caught up in the air, and "so we shall ever be with the Lord." That is the point at which Paul thought he would be both with Christ and conscious.

RE: 2 Cor. 5:6-8. Before I can address this text, I need to ask you how you see it: Is the eternal house in heaven, the heavenly dwelling or tent, a body? If so, then do we get our heavenly bodies at death or at the resurrection? If at the resurrection, then this text is not saying that we are conscious in death. If, on the other hand, we get our new bodies at death, then there would be no need of a resurrection.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 08/08/03 06:20 AM

quote:

Seems this passage acknowledges that false prophets inspired by Satan may just happen to get it right sometimes. Thus the devil could correctly "predict" Saul's demise the next day by uttering a self-fulfilling prophecy: By goading Saul to despair, Saul was kept from being his best, which brought on defeat.
If you will recall, the Jewish nation had already been taken from Saul by God. So the outcome of Saul leading Israel into battle had already been destined to failure regardless of it Saul “was his best” or not. However, the text you posted does seem to indicate that a false prophet can have accurate predictions, so that does support the idea that it could have been a demon.


quote:

When one has about 411 texts supporting a given position, it does seem clear cut. How many texts do you have?
I don’t believe it’s an issue of volume, but one of clarity. Saying that the body sleeps at death 411 times does not address the soul. So having texts that specifically state things or clarify the specifics is what matters.


quote:

RE: Mat. 10:28. I believe you already said that it would be reasonable to define "soul" as "life" here. Your exact comments were:
Yes, reasonable, but if you are honest you would agree that it would also be reasonable to define the soul here as a person’s essence in existence outside their body.


quote:

RE: 1 Peter 3:18, 19. I haven't ignored this one, for I don't think you've brought it up to me before. I don't recall you bringing up any of the following texts either.

Look at it closely. It says that Jesus went and preachED to those spirits BY the Holy Spirit. Jesus by the Holy Spirit preached through Noah to those lost souls before the Flood took place. The text doesn't say that He preached to them after they had died. Nor does it say that Jesus personally did the preaching.
Bob, you are rationalizing. The texts states: “being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison” NKJV

Jesus was “made alive” by the spirit. That is what it states. It was not the holy spirit that preached to the spirits.

In any regards, even if it was the holy spirit, how do you explain the holy spirit preaching to the spirits of people who died in the flood?
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 08/09/03 05:30 AM

quote:
Yes, reasonable, but if you are honest you would agree that it would also be reasonable to define the soul here as a person's essence in existence outside their body.
No, I would not agree unless there is some explicit verse that must be taken that way. When you have explicit verses that use "soul" to mean "dead body," "life," animals, and fish, you need an explicit verse that uses "soul" in the manner you suggest.
quote:
Bob, you are rationalizing.
Read the text again. It says that the Spirit that quickened Jesus was the Spirit that went and preached, past tense.

So if it wasn't the Holy Spirit that did the preaching, what Spirit was it?

The KJV capitalizes Spirit there because those translators recognized that Peter meant the Holy Spirit.

Here's what the immortal-soulist, Baptist scholar John Gill has to say about it:
quote:
The plain and easy sense of the words is, that Christ, by his Spirit, by which he was quickened, went in the ministry of Noah, the preacher of righteousness, and preached both by words and deeds, by the personal ministry of Noah, and by the building of the ark, to that generation who was then in being; and who being disobedient, and continuing so, a flood was brought upon them which destroyed them all; and whose spirits, or separate souls, were then in the prison of hell, so the Syriac version renders it, ... "in hell", see #Re 20:7 when the Apostle Peter wrote this epistle; so that Christ neither went into this prison, nor preached in it, nor to spirits that were then in it when he preached, but to persons alive in the days of Noah, and who being disobedient, when they died, their separate souls were put into prison, and there they were when the apostle wrote:
Of course, I wouldn't agree with every thought he has here, but even he could see that Peter meant that the Holy Spirit went and preached in the days of Noah.

When Peter uses the word "Spirit" in 1 Pet. 1:2, 11, is that not the Holy Spirit?
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 08/09/03 05:34 AM

I hope you caught the fact that the preaching was to the "spirits" before they died, not after. John Gill and I agree on that one.

That's the typical explanation for that passage by someone of my persuasion. I didn't come up with that. Get any material that deals with the few texts that seem to contradict the 411, and that is what it will say about that passage.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 08/11/03 07:03 PM

Bob, I don’t see any point in continuing this conversation. You are obviously not open to any other position even though I have just given you texts that you cannot explain scripturaly.

So if you cannot even admit to the fact that it is not a clear cut issue, I don’t see any reason to continue.
Posted By: Bob Pickle

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 08/16/03 04:55 AM

Why not prayerfully read through your post? It did not make much sense.

I did Scripturally explain the passage from 1 Peter. I assume that is the only one you are referring to.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Where Really Are The Dead? - 09/18/03 12:00 AM

I was reading this text in relation to another post, but I though it had bearing here:


“16The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.” Romans 8


Now if we do not have a spirit that is distinct from our body, how can our spirit bear witness? In fact, if our spirit is just “breath”, how can it do anything?
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