Don’t you mean God knew everything He was willing to allow Satan to do? That is, don’t you think God established the perimeters He was willing to allow Satan to work within and that God worked to ensure Satan wouldn’t exceed those limits?


I’m not blaming God. Rather, I’m crediting Him with ensuring Satan does not do things that exceed what He is willing to allow him to do. Yes, God respects freewill; however, this does not mean He sits back and allows them to do anything they please. He establishes limits beyond which He will not allow them to go. And, He works to prevent them from exceeding those limits (which does not violate their freedoms). How He does it is the scope and hope of this thread.


I don’t think it is possible. It sounds like you agree with me (although I am not sure what you believe since you haven’t said so).


This passage does not address my questions, Tom. That’s why I keep asking you. She simply says God withdrew His protection and permitted the carnage and atrocities we read about. My questions have to do with the limits God established in this case. We both agree nothing happens without God’s permission and that happens that exceeds what He is willing to permit. So, why did He permit such butchery and mayhem as were perpetrated in Jerusalem? Why do you think He was capable of setting limits that allowed such cruelty and carnage?


I don’t think God was responsible for what happened in the sense He caused it to happen. Obviously God is love and He would never cause the kind of cruelty and carnage we read about in the case of Job and the Jews at Jerusalem in 70 AD.

I don’t believe God prevents evil. I believe He allows evil men and angels to sin and to work evil. However, I believe He establishes limits beyond they cannot go. I also believe He prevents them from exceeding His established limits.

My questions have to do with 1) why does God set limits that allow unthinkable cruelty and carnage, and 2) how does He prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His limits. So far you have not addressed these questions.

What premise might that be? Do you think God commanded Moses to stone sinners to death? If so, do you think it was evil? If not, why not?


Do you mean what happened to the passages I posted? You'll find them right where you left them. Do you think the "evil" mentioned in those passages was justifiable?

Amen!


Do you know of anyone who reasons this way?

Well, I was wondering if you reasoned that way. I thought I saw it in your previous posts. Do you agree or disagree with the reasoning?

Amen? Yikes!!!

No, no Amen! Anti-Amen! Nema!



Ah... much better.

No, I didn't mean that.



Haven't I said a number of times that if God didn't constrain Satan that he would destroy the whole planet?



Your questions about why God would be capable of doing something like this seems quite negative to me.



I don't understand why you're asking me questions about things you don't think are possible. Do you think I would think this is possible? If so, how? What's a possible scenario wherein Satan could do something which God did not allow.



She points out why. If you're not seeing this, I suggest you re-read what she wrote.



This seems negatively phrased to me, the point I made earlier. You seem intent upon putting God in a negative light. Why? God did nothing wrong. Sin is a terrible thing. The Jews caused God's protection to be removed. This is not something God did, but something which was done to Him.



I'm glad to say this, but it rings somewhat hollow from your keyboard, as you seem to think God capable of doing similarly cruel things.



No one on this forum has disputed this, have they? I don't understand why you think this is a point which needs to be repeatedly made. It's scratching where it doesn't itch.



I don't understand why you term detailed explanations as not addressing questions. I explained that God uses influence to do so. This is several pages back. We went back and forth regarding this for quite awhile.

Your first question smacks of assuming a false premise, that false premise being that the setting of limits somehow causes cruelty and carnage, or makes God responsible for it. Why not simply ask why does God allow such bad things to happen? That seems a more straight-forward way of asking this, and does so in a way which doesn't necessarily implicate God. The answer to this question is addressed by Jesus Christ:

Here's the reasoning I agree with (note the slight clarifications):

1. God is not evil.
2. God can do no wrong.
3. Therefore, everything God does is holy, just, and good.
4. If something God does seems evil or wrong to me I refer back to points 1 thru 3 and assume my perceptions are perverted and conclude the "strange acts" of God are holy, just, and good.

For example, God commanded a holy angel to kill all the first born in Egypt in response to Pharaoh's stubborn resistance to God's command to let His people go. Although this seems excessive to me I am forced to conclude it was holy, just, and good.

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. {GC 614.2}

I’m sorry my comments leave you feeling less than confident in what I believe about it.


I stated the obvious because I suspect you don’t believe I believe it. Your response above seems to support my suspicions.


If God can employ the principles of “mind on mind” to ensure evil men and angels comply with His limitations, without violating their freedoms, why, then, doesn’t He employ them to elicit love and obedience?


I know why God allows evil men and angels to harm good and innocent people. That’s why my question pertains to other aspects. “Why does God set limits that allow unthinkable cruelty and carnage?” This question does not assume God is the one responsible for causing it to happen. It is concerned with why His limits allow it. You have yet to address this aspect of the question.

You're making a point that nobody has questioned because you think I don't think you believe it? That is, you think I don't believe that you believe that God sets up limits beyond which Satan can't go? Why would you think such a thing? And what could I possibly have written that "seems to support" such suspicions?



I didn't say "principles of 'mind on mind'". I said "influence." God does use influence to elicit love and obedience. He influences people to listen to the Gospel, for example. He doesn't force, but He invites, He seeks to persuade, with reason, for example. Note how often Jesus did this.



It seems like a FOTAP question to me. I don't accept the premise which you question has, as you've worded it. Try wording it some other way.

Words cannot express how wrong I think this is. This seems to reasoning like this: "Well, I know I'm evil, and so my perception of evil is distorted, and I know God is good, so He must be able to do things which I think are evil." You have a God who is morally inferior to yourself! You *say* God is good, but your heart can't believe that, because He does things which are morally inferior to what you yourself would do.

I don't believe that's not a healthy concept to have about God. God should be morally superior to ourselves, in our hearts and minds, so that He does things which are incredibly good to others, much better than we would believe ourselves capable of doing, not worse than what we see ourselves capable of.

I see this same weakness in Bob's concept of the punishment of the wicked. He wouldn't personally engulf people (even his enemies) with flames, and keep them alive (assuming he could) to prolong their suffering, but he has no problem conceiving of God doing this, even to his loved ones. So his concept of God has Him doing things which are morally inferior to what he himself would do.

I see you saying the same thing. I wonder just how many things fall into this category. That is, how many places are there where you see God acting in a destructive way where you think to yourself, "*I* wouldn't do that, and I don't understand why God did that, since it seems unnecessary and excessive, but He is God, so I'll just accept that what He did must be good, even though I don't perceive it as such."