|
Forums117
Topics9,290
Posts197,115
Members1,328
| |
Most Online57,938 Dec 25th, 2025
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199279
12/10/25 09:56 PM
12/10/25 09:56 PM
|
OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,243
Canada
|
|
2nd trumpet
The fall of Western Imperial Roman Empire
The message from this trumpet is very relevant for today. We see the movement of religion seeking to unite with government power, thinking to enforce law (God's law) as the answer to establish truth?
The second trumpet is about a great mountain -- a great nation
Jeremiah 51:24 And I will render unto Babylon...against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.
Babylon is a symbolic term of powerful church/state control in Revelation. (Revelation 17 and 18) During the early Christian centuries the cryptic word "Babylon" appears commonly in both Jewish and Christian writings when referring to the city and empire of Rome.(1 Peter 5:13)
In Daniel, Rome is quite a central subject. It's that terrible beast out of which the horn emerges. The horn was "groomed" by the Roman Empire, but didn't come into full power until the western Roman Empire, --like a great burning mountain -- fell.
This union between Imperial Rome and the Church was first established back in 313 AD.
Daniel 11:23 And after (that is sometime after Jerusalem was destroyed in vs 22) the league was made with him he shall work deceitfully: (the Roman Empire made a league with Christianity) for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people. (Constantine saw it as a link to unite people into a more unified empire). Christianity, in years following, grew to be the state religion in the Roman Empire, the sword had entered the church which now claimed to have "two swords" one ecclesiastic, the other civil power. The Roman Empire was now supposedly "Christian".
But religion is not a matter of government enforcement. It always leads to persecution, trying to corral everyone into one mindset to unite the empire. It does not lead to true heart unity with our Savior and Redeemer. The supposed Christian empire was very corrupt. Basically just as pagan as always, just with imposed rules that had a Christian flavor.
Rev. 8:8-9 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Sea = people (Rev. 17:15) Rome was over run by hordes (a sea) of Barbarians, The Vandals, the Goths, the Huns, all left ruin and desolation, blood, and destruction. And yes, control of the Mediterranean Sea was a huge part of the battles. A lot of ships went down, a lot of sailors died. 439 CE, The Vandal Fleet conquered Sicily, Malta, Sardinia and Corsica. 455 CE, the Vandal Fleet arrived off the Italian coast, and embarked on the Second Sack of Rome 461 CE, Battle of Cartagena. The Vandal fleet destroys a West Roman Fleet. 468 CE, Battle of Cape Bon. The Vandal fleet defeats a combine East and West Roman Fleet 476 CE, The Western Roman Empire falls. The Vandals have control of the Mediterranean sea routes.
Ships symbolize a nation's power and self-sufficiency, the Western Roman downfall was hugely devastating to its economic and social order.
True, the eastern Empire was still there and they were able to push back against the Vandals and Goths later, and help the papacy get seated in power in Rome in 538. But they too were too weak to support the west for any length of time and retired to the east . By 476 the Western Roman Empire was gone.
So what is the message in all this?
In our day, Christian Nationalism is on the rise in the most powerful nation on earth: Christian Nationalism in America is the belief that the United States is, or should be, a "Christian" nation. They aren't content with people in America who, on their own initiative attend Christian churches if they so choose, Christian Nationalists believe the government should actively support, prioritize, and, where the need supposedly arises, enforce Christian beliefs and practices.
Revelation 13 predicts this rise -- a beast with two horns like a lamb, will start to enforce religion. Just like in Constantine's day, many Christians will think joining religion with government power, is a wonderful thing. A return to godly living they conclude. How could that be bad? Why not join? But it's outward, not inward reform. It's agenda is controlled by man, not in reference to God. And what about obeying God? With Constantine, Sunday as the day of rest took wings. Supported, too, by the bishop of Rome, who was well on his way to be a Bishop higher than all the other Bishops. Yet there was no "thus says the Lord", as it's foundation.
Again Sunday as the day of rest is on the agenda.
People won't see the danger, till it gets oppressive -- no buying or selling unless one yields to whatever the government thinks is important for this nation. And just like back in 300-450 AD years, the papacy will be increasing and reaching for full control, joining and orchestrating the movement.
But remember the fall of that powerful, seemingly unconquerable Roman empire; Even so, this mountain of a beast, too, will fall, no matter how powerful with world wide authority and power it may seem to have at any given time, it too will fall.
Worship God, our Creator and Savior. Acts 5:29 We ought to obey God rather than men.
|
|
|
Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199287
12/11/25 04:43 PM
12/11/25 04:43 PM
|
OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,243
Canada
|
|
The first two trumpets- 1. Rejection of the covenant which Christ had come to confirm (and did confirm with His own blood on Calvary). It was largely rejected by the nation that had the promises, that was supposedly waiting for the Messiah to appear. They did not reject their formal religion,but by rejecting Jesus, it was the rejection of that gift of Divine love and key to life and deliverance from sin. That rejection brings very bad results. Because there is only one way of salvation and that is through Christ, all other paths lead to destruction, because sin is destructive.
2. Using the state's civil power to enforce the covenant. The emperor makes a league with the Christians, and then we find an emperor "chairing" religious councils and decision making gatherings of church officials and using his power to enforce whatever decisions were made (and some of his own). The emperor was grooming the Roman bishop into his likeness, to take over his seat. The bishops and people think this is a blessing when in reality it was a huge step into apostacy. The wall between church and state was cast down. The state had placed himself as the guardian of the church. But the mountain with it's massive military power over the then known world was also cast down. Like a burning Mountain cast into the sea of humanity. This is a very important warning for today.
3. The bitter waters -- THIRD TRUMPET
Rev. 8:10-11 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Jesus came to give people the water of life, the living water. (John 4:10,13,14) He sent His Holy Spirit to guide people into truth. But now, what looked like water, and was professing to be dispensing God's Word, was bitter, the covenant of God was being covered by poisoned water.
Remember, stars in Revelation symbolize leaders of the church. Rev. 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, ... The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write;
The one who was now sitting in the seat of Rome, was being regarded as the greatest leader of the church, he was declared to be head over all the churches by the law of Justinian. He wasn't dispensing the pure water of life anymore, but bitter water.
Christianity had spread as far as China to the east, and Britain to the west. At this point in time the papal authority was mainly west.
There are also two sources -- The True Witness writing to the "stars" (the leaders of the churches), calling for repentance and overcoming in His name, giving them the water of life. There is also another spirit coming from the original fallen star who wages constant war against Christ and truth, sending wrong influences to cause the church to stumble off the path of truth, dispensing bitter water.
The message? Are we drinking the living water coming to us, from Christ and His covenant and gift of grace and cleansing. Or are we drinking the bitter water, that is available all around us?
|
|
|
Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199294
12/13/25 09:16 PM
12/13/25 09:16 PM
|
OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,243
Canada
|
|
The Dark Ages. Fourth Trumpet Sometime after 538 and lasting several centuries we find the light of truth being eclipsed. This is the result of what happens when a human pretends to be God, sitting in the temple of God, using the sword to divert spiritual worship to themselves. Rev. 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
The dark ages is a term used more by Protestants than Catholics. It's a term now being contested, because the system that created the dark ages, now, once again, seeks to be thought of as the "light of the world".
But we need to remember that it was a time of darkness for the common people. A false Christian power eclipsed the sun of righteousness, withheld the Bible from the people, and had their priests teaching falsehoods, the wine of Babylon. These placed themselves, mere sinful humans, above the God of heaven, claiming power to change God's law (deleting the second commandment and changing the fourth), claiming power to forgive sins, sending people to a sinful human to confess their sins and obtain forgiveness, claiming the keys to heaven and using them to control kings and princes, using the sword and force to keep the people in darkness. Making merchandize of God's grace.
It was indeed like an eclipse, where a whole region of earth only got a few glimpses of the glorious truths of the gospel still shining behind the darkness that obscured it.
Remember, Rome has not changed. All the pleasant sounding speeches, and many are being given, if they speak not according to the law and the prophets, there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20) It is no more "light" now, than it was in the darkness of the Dark Ages.
|
|
|
Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199307
12/16/25 11:51 PM
12/16/25 11:51 PM
|
OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,243
Canada
|
|
The Historicist Interpretation.Supported by Ellen White? 1st Trumpet8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. Interpretation: Christ came to His own, and His own received Him not. The nation that was especially blessed, having the promises, the scriptures, and then, the LORD himself, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to live among them, to teach, to heal, to Redeem and save, but as a nation, the Jewish nation rejected Him, and had Him killed. By rejecting Christ, the Messiah, they sealed their doom. They rejected salvation and life! Yet, every Jew is still precious in God's sight!!! Christ died for them as well as for everyone. All who come to Him and accept Him, believe and trust in Him, and His gift of salvation, will not perish but have everlasting life! (see John 3:16) It was by rejecting the Prince of peace, the Savior, the One to Whom all their symbolism pointed, that their nation was given over to destruction. A tremendous warning for us today!!! The cursing of the fig tree was an acted parable. That barren tree, flaunting its pretentious foliage in the very face of Christ, was a symbol of the Jewish nation. The Saviour desired to make plain to His disciples the cause and the certainty of Israel's doom?.The Jews stood forth distinct from all other nations, professing allegiance to God. They had been specially favored by Him, and they laid claim to righteousness above every other people?. But love to God and man was eclipsed by pride and self-sufficiency. They brought ruin upon themselves?. The treasures of truth which God had committed to them, they did not give to the world. In the barren tree they might read both their sin and its punishment. Withered beneath the Saviour's curse, standing forth sere and blasted, dried up by the roots, the fig tree showed what the Jewish nation would be when the grace of God was removed from them. Refusing to impart blessing, they would no longer receive it. "O Israel," the Lord says, "thou hast destroyed thyself." Hosea 13:9. {DA 583}
(Ezekiel 9)Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. {5T 211} The chief cornerstone Christ Jesus. ? "to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient," Christ is a rock of offense. But "the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner."? The people who rejected Christ were soon to see their city and their nation destroyed. Their glory would be broken, and scattered as the dust before the wind. And what was it that destroyed the Jews? It was the rock which, had they built upon it, would have been their security. It was the goodness of God despised, the righteousness spurned, the mercy slighted. Men set themselves in opposition to God, and all that would have been their salvation was turned to their destruction. All that God ordained unto life they found to be unto death. In the Jews' crucifixion of Christ was involved the destruction of Jerusalem. The blood shed upon Calvary was the weight that sank them to ruin for this world and for the world to come. So it will be in the great final day, when judgment shall fall upon the rejecters of God's grace. Christ, their rock of offense, will then appear to them as an avenging mountain. The glory of His countenance, which to the righteous is life, will be to the wicked a consuming fire. Because of love rejected, grace despised, the sinner will be destroyed. .{DA 600} By many illustrations and repeated warnings, Jesus showed what would be the result to the Jews of rejecting the Son of God. In these Parables He was addressing all in every age who refuse to receive Him as their Redeemer. Every warning is for them. The desecrated temple, the disobedient son, the false husbandmen, the contemptuous builders, have their counterpart in the experience of every sinner. Unless he repent, the doom which they foreshadowed will be his.{DA 600} For nearly forty years after the doom of Jerusalem had been pronounced by Christ Himself, the Lord delayed His judgments upon the city and the nation. Wonderful was the long-suffering of God toward the rejectors of His gospel and the murderers of His Son. The parable of the unfruitful tree represented God's dealings with the Jewish nation. The command had gone forth, "Cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?" (Luke 13:7) but divine mercy had spared it yet a little longer. {GC 28} The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law.{GC 36} Let men beware lest they neglect the lesson conveyed to them in the words of Christ. As He warned His disciples of Jerusalem's destruction, giving them a sign of the approaching ruin, that they might make their escape; so He has warned the world of the day of final destruction and has given them tokens of its approach, that all who will may flee from the wrath to come?.The world is no more ready to credit the message for this time than were the Jews to receive the Saviour's warning concerning Jerusalem. Come when it may, the day of God will come unawares to the ungodly. {GC 38]
|
|
|
Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199312
12/18/25 02:26 PM
12/18/25 02:26 PM
|
OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,243
Canada
|
|
Knowing something about the enemies strategies is often crucial to the outcomes. While I don't recommend spending a lot of time reading messages from the apparition "Mary", yet there are things to consider that come forth in those messages repeatedly. Remember this is fallen angels pretending to be Mary. The enemies agenda to turn worship from God to himself. The messages predict supernatural "warning" "sign" and "Great Chastisement". All of which can be easily fitted into a futuristic trumpet explanation -- all focused on "cleansing" people, cleansing the church, cleansing nations, bringing people to change their whole paradigm of thought, uplifting the sacraments of the Catholic Church, and calling all into worship to the "immaculate hearts" of Jesus and Mary. They call people to love, unity and stop sinning. It all sounds right, a clever counterfeit, but it is in defiance to our Creator God and His law.
The devil has his own trumpet signs ready for the final great battle. What happens to those who have abandoned the warnings of the historicist trumpets? What reason will they have to resist the fiery, awesome and frightening events and signs that will be displayed in the heavens and on earth. A time when even the Catholic church will be severely shaken and supposedly "cleansed" to come forth leading people to the Christ and to listening to "Mary".
That there will be a time of trouble like never before, with supernatural signs and wonders in the near future is Biblical. But are the trumpets being reframed and reconstructed to drive people into accepting the false as the will of God? The historicist trumpets (and seals) warn us of the trap that has been in the processes of being set up from the date of Satan's defeat at the cross. Yes it will be sprung in the end, but to ignore and claim historicism is the wrong interpretation, is erasing the true warnings the trumpets were sent to give.
Now the pioneers were right in setting the trumpets in the historicist framework -- Historicism covers the whole Christian era, but I believe they were too narrow in placing the first four into one brief period of history (the fall of imperial western Rome) and fifth and sixth all (the fall of Eastern Roman Empire). Further study has broadened the trumpets into covering the whole Christian era from Christ's first coming to, and including, His final victory. Deeper study into the historicism approach has built on the frame work established, not abandoned it, following the pattern set forth for historicism interpretation given by Revelation itself. The same pattern established in the churches and the seals. It also agrees much more to what the last day prophet EGW writes. We find Revelation repeatedly first gives the final effect (Christ's victory) and then moves to the cause, a series of events leading up to the effect. Western thought likes to move from cause to effect, but Revelation likes to give the effect FIRST,( in this case, the censor is cast down), and then the cause, (what led up to this). It is misunderstanding this, that has led to confusion, thinking the trumpets must sound after it's all over, after Christ's work is done. Then the trumpets are no longer warnings, they are represented to be God's anger, and can be used by the enemy to compel people into submission or else.
|
|
|
Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199314
12/18/25 07:31 PM
12/18/25 07:31 PM
|
OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,243
Canada
|
|
The Historicist Interpretation. Supported by Ellen White?
2nd Trumpet2nd trumpet
This one is very relevant for today. We see the movement of religion seeking to unite with government power, thinking to enforce law (God's law) is the answer.
The second trumpet is about a great mountain -- a great nation
Jeremiah 51:24 And I will render unto Babylon...against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.
Babylon is symbolic of powerful church/state control in Revelation. (Revelation 17 and 18) During the early Christian centuries the cryptic word "Babylon" appears commonly in both Jewish and Christian writings when referring to the city and empire of Rome.(1 Peter 5:13)
In Daniel, Rome is quite a central subject. It's that terrible beast out of which the horn emerges. The horn was "groomed" by the Roman Empire, but didn't come into full power until the western Roman Empire, --like a great burning mountain -- fell.
This union between Imperial Rome and the Church was first established back in 313 AD.
Daniel 11:23 And after (that is sometime after Jerusalem was destroyed in vs 22) the league was made with him he shall work deceitfully: (the Roman Empire made a league with Christianity) for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people. (Constantine saw it as a link to unite people into a more unified empire).
Christianity, in years following, grew to be the state religion in the Roman Empire, the sword had entered the church which now claimed to have "two swords" one ecclesiastic, the other civil power. The Roman Empire was now supposedly "Christian".
But religion is not a matter of government enforcement. It always leads to persecution, trying to corral everyone into one mindset to unite the empire. It does not lead to true heart unity with our Savior and Redeemer. The supposed Christian empire was very corrupt. Basically just as pagan as always, just with imposed rules that had a Christian flavor.
Sea = people (Rev. 17:15) Rome was over run by hordes (a sea) of Barbarians, The Vandals, the Goths, the Huns, all left ruin and desolation, blood, and destruction. And yes, control of the Mediterranean Sea was a huge part of the battles. A lot of ships went down, a lot of sailors died. 439 CE, The Vandal Fleet conquered Sicily, Malta, Sardinia and Corsica. 455 CE, the Vandal Fleet arrived off the Italian coast, and embarked on the Second Sack of Rome 461 CE, Battle of Cartagena. The Vandal fleet destroys a West Roman Fleet. 468 CE, Battle of Cape Bon. The Vandal fleet defeats a combine East and West Roman Fleet 476 CE, The Western Roman Empire falls. The Vandals have control of the Mediterranean sea routes.
Ships symbolize a nation's power and self-sufficiency, the Western Roman downfall was hugely devastating to its economic and social order.
Rev. 8:8-9 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.In Daniel 11: 21 The KON (Imperial Rome) destroys Jerusalem and the prince of the covenant. In Daniel 11:22 The KON (Imperial Rome) makes an agreement or league with a small people (Christians) Why would an Emperor make such a league, and more importantly why would the Christian church enter such a league?By 300 AD Christianity had spread all over the Roman Empire! They were held together by their belief in one Supreme God, Who had loved them so much He sent His only Son to die for them. Some of the Emperors envisioned Christianity as ?an empire within the Empire? that threatened the latter?s control. The years before 313 AD were marked as years of persecution against Christianity by imperial Rome. Constantine I, on the other hand, saw the prospect of uniting the Empire with Christianity as a means to strengthen and unite the empire, which was facing considerable fragmentation. Directly after the capture of Rome (Constantine had to defeat three other ?emperors? before he became sole emperor of the whole empire) he proceeded to favor the Roman Catholic Church. In 313 AD signing the Edict of Milan, which basically gave religious freedom to everyone, but by 324 he adopted a harsher attitude toward paganism and against ?divergent? Christians, and supported ever more the Roman Catholic church. He gift the Lateran Palace to the bishop of Rome, and began construction on the first St. Peter?s Basilica church in Rome among other things. This gave the bishop of Rome an unprecedented level of temporal power, elevating him above other bishops. Christians (most of them) celebrated the ?conversion? of Constantine and the beneficent era of peace he inaugurated. They felt it was the triumph of Christianity. Not only was Christianity placed in honorary position throughout the Empire, Constantine showered the church (especially the church in Rome) with favors. Persecution did not end for Christians who were not in line with the Roman Catholic/Emperor approved church. The emperor?s mindset was that he was God?s elect to protect the church and that bishops and priests, were subject to him. His main objective being unity and calling councils in hopes of achieving unity. How does Ellen White's depiction of the time compare with the enthusiasm this "agreement" or "league" received? As persecution ceased, and Christianity entered the courts and palaces of kings, she laid aside the humble simplicity of Christ and His apostles for the pomp and pride of pagan priests and rulers; and in place of the requirements of God, she substituted human theories and traditions. The nominal conversion of Constantine, in the early part of the fourth century, caused great rejoicing; and the world, cloaked with a form of righteousness, walked into the church. Now the work of corruption rapidly progressed. Paganism, while appearing to be vanquished, became the conqueror. Her spirit controlled the church. Her doctrines, ceremonies, and superstitions were incorporated into the faith and worship of the professed followers of Christ. {GC 49.2}
In the early part of the fourth century, the emperor Constantine issued a decree making Sunday a public festival throughout the Roman Empire. The day of the sun was reverenced by his pagan subjects, and was honored by Christians; it was the emperor's policy to unite the conflicting interests of heathenism and Christianity. He was urged to do this by the bishops of the church, who, inspired by ambition, and thirst for power, perceived that if the same day was observed by both Christians and the heathen, it would promote the nominal acceptance of Christianity by pagans, GC 54 Almost immediately after this union with Imperial Rome took place, Sunday legislation began to develop. Thus the churches came to consist, to a considerable extent, of unconverted persons; and even in the ministry were those who not only held errors of doctrine, but who were ignorant of the renewing power of the Holy Spirit. Thus was demonstrated the evil results, so often witnessed in the history of the church from the days of Constantine to the present, of attempting to build up the church by the aid of the State, of appealing to the secular power in support of the gospel of Him who declared, ?My kingdom is not of this world.? [John 18:36.] The union of the church with the State, be the degree never so slight, while it may appear to bring the world nearer to the church, does in reality but bring the church nearer to the world. {GC88 296.4} The union brought ruin to western Roman EmpireThe mighty mountain of western Roman Empire, crashed into the sea of humanity. Why? Shouldn't it have been the solution, not hastening Imperial Rome's demise? Emperor Constantine I (ruled 306?337 AD) had reunited the empire after defeating his rivals. But then he laid the foundation for its division, He founded Constantinople (modern Istanbul) in 330 AD as a new imperial capital, but Rome was also still a capital. The final division occurred in 395 AD when Emperor Theodosius I died. The Empire became two - East and West, each with their own emperor (but still technically one empire). Things in Rome, the original base of the Empire, were getting very unstable. Weak emperors, corruption, barbarian invasions, rivalries, civil wars, and economic troubles, all culminated in Western Rome's downfall (476) The West fell into fragmentation, the East continued as Byzantium Empire. With the demise of the Roman Empire, it didn?t take long for the infrastructure to collapse. As the roads fell into disuse, trade virtually came to a halt. Sea trade fared no better, as the Vandals now commanded the shipping routes. Cities were no longer a safe place to live, one didn?t know when raiders might descend. Thus the cities fell into disrepair or were looted. Education faltered, illiteracy became the norm for the common folk. Indeed, the fall of Rome was devastating to the whole society, economy, and security of the people. Is there a warning in all this for us today? When the state shall use its power to enforce the decrees and sustain the institutions of the church--then will Protestant America have formed an image to the papacy, and there will be a national apostasy which will end only in national ruin (ST March 22, 1910). {7BC 976.4}
Our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and Republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan, and that the end is near.--Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 451. {ChS 160.4}
Temptation is coming in the form of a union of church and state. There are those who would obliterate the marks of distinction between those who believe the truth and those who think it of no importance. But we are ever to keep plainly in view the distinct features of our faith, which have made us what we are. When we see those who for nearly a lifetime have been standing on the platform of truth, deciding that they can just as well as not unite with the men who do not recognize the law of Jehovah, seeking their influence and support, our hearts are made sad. They think they can occupy a noncommittal position. Thus believers slip away from the truth to the side of unbelievers, and the enemy exults. {20MR 28.5} Union of church and state: Produces Spiritual Poverty -- Earnest movements have been made here in the Parliaments to have God acknowledged in the government of this nation. [Australia.] Earnest efforts have been made to prevent this, knowing that it meant nothing less than religious bigotry and oppression. When religion is mixed with civil government, it means much to Seventh-day Adventists, the union of church and state means a recognition of a spurious sabbath, and a failure to respect the conscientious observance of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. {12MR 218.2}
|
|
|
Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199318
12/20/25 01:58 AM
12/20/25 01:58 AM
|
OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,243
Canada
|
|
3. The bitter waters -- THIRD TRUMPET
Rev. 8:10-11 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Jesus came to give people the water of life, the living water. (John 4:10,13,14) He sent His Holy Spirit to guide people into truth. But now, what looked like water, and was professing to be dispensing God's Word, was bitter, the covenant of God was being covered by poisoned water.
Remember, stars in Revelation symbolize leaders of the church. Rev. 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, ... The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write;
The one who was now sitting in the seat of Rome, was being regarded as the greatest leader of the church, he was declared to be head over all the churches by the law of Justinian. He wasn't dispensing the pure water of life anymore, but bitter water.
Christianity had spread as far as China to the east, and Britain to the west. At this point in time the papal authority was mainly west.
There are also two sources -- The True Witness writing to the "stars" (the leaders of the churches), calling for repentance and overcoming in His name, giving them the water of life. There is also another spirit coming from the original fallen star who wages constant war against Christ and truth, sending wrong influences to cause the church to stumble off the path of truth, dispensing bitter water.
The message? Are we drinking the living water coming to us, from Christ and His covenant and gift of grace and cleansing. Or are we drinking the bitter water, that is available all around us?
Third trumpet sees a bright falling star turn one third of the fresh water into wormwood. A bright leading church leader turns the water of life into bitter, poisonous water. Why does it say one third of the water One thing that's interesting is that most people think of Christianity as basically a European or western religion. Rome is often seen as the center hub of Christianity? But was it? Scripture and prophecy does place a strong focus on Roman Christianity, because it was lifted up as the "head" and yes, it sought to control Christianity, (and still does) but there is a whole history of Christianity that we do not hear much about. Back in the time when Imperial Rome fell in the mid 5th century, the west contained only a fraction of the Christian world. The middle east was dotted with many strong and influential Christian churches. On into Persian domains, Asia and India we find possibly even more than a third of all Christians, continuing for centuries apart from Rome. Africa also had many strong and influential Christian centers. The apostles of Christ had taken the gospel to the known world. Many Christian communities and churches existed in those early AD centuries, that operated quite apart from Roman control for centuries. It's western Christianity under Rome in which Christianity is noted for it's strong alliance with state power with it's stringent doctrinal codes (often departing from true Christianity) which were enforced by law, while any that held different views within their jurisdiction ( like Jews and Christians that held divergent views) were heavily persecuted. It's western Christianity, based in Rome, with it's background based on the methods and philosophies of political kingdoms that went before it, that is the amalgamated "beast" of Revelation 13. Daniel 7 makes this plain as the "horn" with mouth speaking blasphemy and thinking to change God's times and laws, arising from the Roman beast, is none other than the papal order that claims supremacy over all churches. It was the bishop of Rome (a prominent bishop amongst many bishops of the churches scatter across the Europe/Asia/African map) that was elevated to prominence by imperial Roman, and which claimed supremacy over all the others, that is the subject of prophecy. Yet Christianity is not synominous to Rome. Rome gave Christianity a very bad name, and many have turned away from Christianity because of what they see done in the name of Christianity by this power. Rev. 8:10-11 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. A third. This makes perfect sense when we understand western Christianity probably didn't even contain 1/3 of all Christians at the time. But this was "the falling star". A church leader rising in importance and power, gaining "brilliance" in it's rise of church power, supported by state power, yet falling away from truth, falling down from heavenly truths, and from the simple gospel Christianity. Wormwood --- polluting the water of life, polluting the gospel. The gospel is life! Wormwood is not life, it's poison in the water. Looking at EGW quotes The world needs evidences of sincere Christianity. The poison of sin is at work at the heart of society. Cities and towns are steeped in sin and moral corruption...souls in poverty and distress, weighed down with a sense of guilt and perishing for want of a saving influence. ..they perish because the example of those who should be a savor of life to them is a savor of death. Their souls drink in bitterness because the springs are poisoned, when they should be like a well of water springing up unto everlasting life. {PK 232.1}
Paganism, while appearing to be vanquished, became the conqueror. Her spirit controlled the church. Her doctrines, ceremonies, and superstitions were incorporated into the faith and worship of the professed followers of Christ. This compromise between paganism and Christianity resulted in the development of the ?man of sin? foretold in prophecy as opposing and exalting himself above God. That gigantic system of false religion is a masterpiece of Satan's power, a monument of his efforts to seat himself upon the throne to rule the earth according to his will. {GC88 50}
Satan was seeking to corrupt the doctrines of the Bible. I saw that at last the standard was lowered, and that the heathen were uniting with the Christians. Although these worshipers of idols professed to be converted, they brought their idolatry with them into the church, only changing the objects of their worship to images of saints, and even of Christ and of Mary His mother. As the followers of Christ gradually united with them, the Christian religion became corrupted and the church lost its purity and power. Some refused to unite with them; such preserved their purity and worshiped God alone.{Early Writings 211} God has provided for the world a free gospel; ... The Rock of salvation has been smitten for you, that you may drink, that Christ may be in you a well of water springing up unto everlasting life. Then for Christ's sake, drink; for your soul will be refreshed with the living stream...You will awake to the peril and privilege of the time in which you live. Today the people are breaking the law of God, and the warning cry is to be sounded. The warning message has come to you in order that you may repeat it to those who are in darkness and ignorance as to what is coming upon the world. The Lord has said," If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation." {MM, September 1, 1892 par. 2}
The great movement that Wycliffe inaugurated, which was to liberate the conscience and the intellect, and set free the nations so long bound to the triumphal car of Rome, had its spring in the Bible. Here was the source of that stream of blessing, which, like the water of life, has flowed down the ages...Instead of the church speaking through the pope, he declared the only true authority to be the voice of God speaking through His word...Thus he turned the minds of men from the pope and the Church of Rome to the word of God. {GC 93}
In Revelation 17 the false church is portrayed as a woman bearing a cup she is offering to the nations full of abominations (wormwood doctrines and teachings) Below are Biblical warnings of the "woman" or "church" whose message contains wormwood Amos 5:7 ? ?Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth.? Proverbs 5:3-9 "For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil: But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a two-edged sword. Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them. Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth. Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house: Lest thou give thine honour unto others, and thy years unto the cruel:" The third trumpet warns of wormwood doctrines polluting the living water of the gospel in the rising star (who is actually falling) who takes the authority of being the head of all churches Wormwood doctrines like -- immortality of the soul Sunday pushing out God's 7th day Sabbath Interference with Christ's heavenly ministry of forgiveness and salvation. "Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of Spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome." --The Great Controversy, p. 588.Understanding these doctrines within the framework of the living gospel, and discarding the wormwood versions is a very important part of end time warnings.
|
|
|
Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199319
12/21/25 05:43 AM
12/21/25 05:43 AM
|
OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,243
Canada
|
|
The Dark Ages. Fourth Trumpet527 AD Justinian becomes sole emperor of the eastern (Byzantine)empire. A very ambitious emperor who had great plans to reform everything, government, army and church! -- He attempted to reconquer the lost areas of the former Roman Empire and recreate the former grander of the Empire. (He did conquer the Vandals in Northern Africa, and drove the Goths out of Italy) But over extended, enemies attacking him from east and north, economic problems and more drove him back to Constantinople, unable to maintain what he had won. -- He organizes a "code of laws" 533 AD, which by 538 AD basically became the standard law not only in the east, but also in Europe for the next 1260 years. -- He put into his codified law, that the pope was the "head of all churches". Justinian code of laws, was the great compilation of a legal system that not only brought civil laws together but also brought together ecclesiastical related matters into the civil law that had taken place from the time of Constantine to his own time. The code mixed Christian religion and state matters and became a tool in the hands of the successors in ecclesiastical circles in Middle-Age legal systems giving the papacy a lot of power. --In 537 Justinian had the pope in Rome exiled on grounds he was too favorable to the Goths, and placed a pope of his own choosing in place. --After 538, Justinian publicly resigned as chief in Staff of the army, and turned his attention to theological issues. Literal darkness descended over the whole northern hemisphere of area of known land. Was this darkness that happened in nature an omen of the spiritual darkness of the centuries ahead?
The Dark Ages.Rev. 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.It seems even nature was giving a warning. It began 536 AD, when a mysterious event (mysterious because the people didn't know what caused it) plunged the world into semi darkness for a year and a half. Constantinople writers of the time described the sun as dimmed, not sending out light, temperatures dropped, causing crop failures, famine, and social upheaval. Researches have traced a massive volcanic eruption in Iceland in that year and suggest this caused the unnatural, prolonged semi darkness, and cool weather. There was another massive eruption about five years later, prolonging recovery. Then in 542 AD there was an outbreak of Bubonic plague that wiped out half of the population in the Mediterranean area. Some called it Justinian's plague. The message of the fourth trumpet literally happened at the beginning of the 1260 year period! A literal sign of what was happening to Christianity spiritually? Spiritual darkness was descending, the dark ages were beginning. Bible and Ellen White comments:
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. John 12:46 I am come as light into the world, that whosoever believes on me should not abide in darkness. 1 John 1:5-7 God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.
The Waldenses found a hiding-place. Here the light of truth was kept burning amid the darkness of the Middle Ages. Here, for a thousand years, witnesses for the truth maintained the ancient faith. GC 66
It is to be remembered that the greater the light bestowed, the greater the delusion and darkness of those who reject the Word of God and accept fables, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. {ST, November 8, 1899 par. 7}
The accession of the Roman Church to power marked the beginning of the Dark Ages. As her power increased, the darkness deepened. Faith was transferred from Christ, the true foundation, to the pope of Rome. Instead of trusting in the Son of God for forgiveness of sins and for eternal salvation, the people looked to the pope, and to the priests and prelates to whom he delegated authority. They were taught that the pope was their earthly mediator, and that none could approach God except through him, and, further, that he stood in the place of God to them, and was therefore to be implicitly obeyed. A deviation from his requirements was sufficient cause for the severest punishment to be visited upon the bodies and souls of the offenders. Thus the minds of the people were turned away from God to fallible, erring, and cruel men, nay more, to the prince of darkness himself, who exercised his power through them. {GC88 55.1}
The history of God's people during the ages of darkness that followed upon Rome's supremacy, is written in Heaven. But they have little place in human records. Few traces of their existence can be found, except in the accusations of their persecutors. It was the policy of Rome to obliterate every trace of dissent from her doctrines or decrees. Everything heretical, whether persons or writings, was destroyed. A single expression of doubt, a question as to the authority of papal dogmas, was enough to forfeit the life of rich or poor, high or low. Rome endeavored also to destroy every record of her cruelty toward dissenters. Papal councils decreed that books and writings containing such records should be committed to the flames. Before the invention of printing, books were few in number, and in a form not favorable for preservation; therefore there was little to prevent the Romanists from carrying out their purpose. No church within the limits of Romish jurisdiction was long left undisturbed in the enjoyment of freedom of conscience. No sooner had the papacy obtained power than she stretched out her arms to crush all that refused to acknowledge her sway; and one after another, the churches submitted to her dominion. {GC88 61-62}
Warning for today -- That power may have received a "deadly wound" in 1798 when new laws (Napolean's Creed) replaced Justinian's Code, but the wound is almost totally healed. Revelation 13 tells of it re-emerging, coupled with US military and civil power. Can we discern between the darkness of false beliefs of man-made theories, and the truth of Jesus saving righteousness? And now, as in former ages, he (the dragon) has worked through the church to further his designs. The religious organizations of the day have refused to listen to unpopular truths plainly brought to view in the Scriptures, and in combating them they have adopted interpretations and taken positions which have sown broadcast the seeds of skepticism. Clinging to the papal error of natural immortality and man's consciousness in death, they have rejected the only defense against the delusions of Spiritualism....popular teachers declare that the law of God is no longer binding. Thus they cast away the law and the Sabbath together. As the work of Sabbath reform extends, this rejection of the divine law to avoid the claims of the fourth commandment will become well-nigh universal. (GC 587}
We want to understand daily the meaning of these words: "Turn to God." Here is true holiness, rest and peace, grace and glory. Turn not to any living man to be your helper.... Then come to Jesus although you feel your unworthiness. The life of simple dependence upon God is a daily lesson in knowing God and Jesus Christ whom He hath sent....He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defense; I shall not be moved." (Psalms 62:5, 6) {PC 102.2}
|
|
|
Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199338
12/31/25 07:33 PM
12/31/25 07:33 PM
|
OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,243
Canada
|
|
The first four warnings -- 1. Choose Jesus! He is the One and only Savior Who came to this world to bring hope and life to a doomed people here on this sin laden earth heading to destruction. To refuse Jesus is to choose to be under the leadership of the rebel who is the enemy of God. "The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon his law {GC 36.2} 2. The Church is not to "fornicate with the kings of the earth". The league made between Rome and the Church back in 313 AD, supposedly to unite the empire, did not bring peace and true worship, but ruin and destruction as western Rome like a great burning mountain fell into the sea of humanity cause complete upset of society, economy and civilization. With rapid steps we are approaching this period. When Protestant churches shall unite with the secular power to sustain a false religion, for opposing which their ancestors endured the fiercest persecution, then will the papal sabbath be enforced by the combined authority of church and state. There will be a national apostasy, which will end only in national ruin. --Manuscript 51, 1899. 3. Jesus gives living water of life (His Word). Beware of the wormwood water that takes the truth and mixes it with poisonous error and presents it as the Word of God. 4. The leading church was given legal power and sat in the seat of Rome. Nature itself gave a a warning. 536-542 AD literal darkness with limited sunlight coming through, covered the whole Mediterrean area, temperatures dropped, crops failed, then in 542 AD the bubonic plague wiped out half the population. This marked the beginning of the 1260 years. THE FIFTH TRUMPETThe first symbols introducing the fifth trumpet are KEYS and a BOTTOMLESS PIT. The bottomless pit symbolizes chaos, death, evil. It's bottomless quality is it's ability of trapping individuals and causing them to slip ever deeper into the utter darkness and destruction. It is like a black hole with an intense gravitational pull, so strong that nothing, not even light, can escape from it. There is only ONE escape route. It is not in any human power, it is only in Jesus. "He too shared in our humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death." Hebrews 2:14-15
Jesus declares: "I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." (Revelation 1:18)The devil and his legions are frantically busy pushing people into this pit, but there is ONE Who has the key to lift us out! Revelation 9 The fifth angel sounded and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.A fallen star that had already fallen in the 3rd trumpet where it was announced he was turning Christ's living water into wormwood. *Remember Revelation 1:20 depicts stars as "the angels" or leaders (see Rev. 2-3) of the churches. This star church leader in Rome was a very prominent church leader, having been elevated above all the other bishops, is sitting in the seat of Rome. The falling "star" has "the key". The key to the bottomless pit. But we just read it is Jesus Who has the key? In what sense does a falling star have that key? Remember the Bishop in Rome has some lofty claims: "We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty. ..it came to pass in the secret design of God's providence that We were chosen to fill this Chair of St. Peter and to take the place of the Person of Christ Himself in the Church." -Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903) Those keys are a highly visible symbol claimed by the papacy. The Keys of Heaven, with authority to forgive sin, or not to forgive and banish people , a metaphor to the office of Saint Peter closely related to the Papacy and the Vatican. The Keys: Displayed anywhere in the world in Catholic media and churches. Which keys are the true keys?
|
|
|
Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199340
01/01/26 08:41 PM
01/01/26 08:41 PM
|
OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,243
Canada
|
|
Fifth Trumpet continued
Which keys are the true keys? This is a question the Eastern Byzantine church was dealing with. Even though Justinian's code had confirmed Papal Rome's leadership, Rome's claim to be head of all churches had never been accepted in the East.
For centuries the Eastern church disputed Rome's practice to display and revere images. The veneration of saints was not readily accepted. Even the 7th day Sabbath was still respected along with Sunday in many areas in the east. They was disagreement with their views of the nature of Christ. The eastern church disagreed with enforcing celibacy on the priests. They resented the pope's claim to be "the head". They disagreed on how services were to be conducted . Even though these practices were gaining increasing acceptance and support in the eastern church, there had been considerable resistance against them.
The Eastern church claimed it was the councils and their emperor that held final authority, and each church had its own way of governing. While the west was supporting a strong pope - led system.
Popes like Leo IX said the pope had authority in both East and West because the pope's unique authority came from the apostle Peter and their assumed interpretation that the KEYS were given to Peter, who had taught and died in the city of Rome in the 1st century
By the 11th century the west with the pope and the "Holy Roman Empire" and the Byzantine Empire, were direct rivals. Both sides believed they were the real inheritors of the ancient Roman Empire, and the true holders of the Christian faith.
1054 AD the "great schism" took place. The Roman Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church separated.
The years 1054 -1299 were years when the papal church rose to it's highest point of power in the west and it's deadly intent to subjugate all under her religious control. The papacy rallying the kings to form armies and engage in crusades: There were crusades against Moslems, there were crusades against Northern pagan countries, there were crusades against the Albigenses and other Christians not in line with the papacy. The Jews were often targets during these crusades. There were demands that the eastern church come back under papal control.
It was also the time when the papal church tightened her grip on THE KEYS. At the 4th Lateran Council in 1215 a canon that everyone must confess to a human priest at least once every year or be denied certain sacramental privileges, came into force. Confessionals were already set up long before this, but now it was mandatory! That same council formally set forth the transubstantiation Eucharist as the official teaching of the church. It too had been practiced earlier, but now it was formally accepted. Kings did what the pope ordered, if they didn't, the pope used his supposed power of the keys, to deny them salvation privileges.
The fourth crusade ordered by Pope Innocent III, which supposedly was to subdue the Moslems, ended up conquering and pillaging Constantinople, in 1204 AD. That crusade left the Byzantine Empire in confusion and ruins. A Latin man was placed on the throne in Constantinople, the land was divided amongst the conquerors. It could have spelled the end of the Byzantine Empire. But it didn't. Michael VIII of Nicaea took back the better part of the land that had been Byzantine before the Fourth Crusade shattered the empire, and began rebuilding the empire in 1261 AD.
It appears God was giving the Eastern Church another chance -- giving the Byzantine Empire another chance! Even though the Mongols were sweeping down from China across Russia and the Middle east clear to the Ukraine at this time, they never bothered the struggling, reemerging Byzantine Empire, though they subdued their surrounding rivals. The Byzantine Empire was given a chance to revive and rebuild.
What would they do with this second chance? Would they repent and go back to the faith they once believed? Or would they continue with the "wormwood" doctrines that had entered their church.
1299 AD begins the 150 years. The "second chance" for Byzantine. 1299 AD the Ottomans were rising in power. The locusts were coming. But God is far more powerful than those locusts -- if only His people repent and turn to Him.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|