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Adult Sabbath School
14 hours ago
Laying Up Treasure in Heaven

"show me what you spend your money on, and I will show you where your heart is, because wherever you put your money, your heart is sure to follow, if it's not there already."

Noah, how did he lay up treasure in heaven?

Noah did not follow the science.
In fact, science predicted a flood could never happen and Noah was just an old deluded man.

Noah gave up everything, his money, his reputation, the respect from others, all in order to build a huge boat on dry ground, preparing for a flood, which science of that time, said couldn't happen.
Noah believed God, in spite of of all the opposing opinions, in spite of suffering ridicule and in spite of all scientific evidence against his project; he believed and put everything into it and moved forward.

The important thing is that, like Noah, we do what God asks of us, even if, as with Noah, it means some radical life changes in how we would like things to happen down here. The big question-- is our greatest aim to make everything, as cushy and fancy here, as possible, or are we preparing for eternal life with Christ.
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Bible Evidence
Yesterday at 08:01 PM
Now this gets interesting as Ellen White calls theistic evolutionism "The worst kind of infidelity" because it is "disguised infidelity".....

"I was then carried back to the creation and was shown that the first week, in which God performed the work of creation in six days and rested on the seventh day, was just like every other week. The great God in his days of creation and day of rest, measured off the first cycle as a sample for successive weeks till the close of time. ?These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created.? God gives us the productions of his work at the close of each literal day. Each day was accounted of him a generation, because every day he generated or produced some new portion of his work. On the seventh day of the first week God rested from his work, and then blessed the day of his rest, and set it apart for the use of man. The weekly cycle of seven literal days, six for labor, and the seventh for rest, which has been preserved and brought down through Bible history, originated in the great facts of the first seven days...

But the infidel supposition, that the events of the first week required seven vast, indefinite periods for their accomplishment, strikes directly at the foundation of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. It makes indefinite and obscure that which God has made very plain. It is the worst kind of infidelity; for with many who profess to believe the record of creation, it is infidelity in disguise. It charges God with commanding men to observe the week of seven literal days in commemoration of seven indefinite periods, which is unlike his dealings with mortals, and is an impeachment of his wisdom.

Infidel geologists claim that the world is very much older than the Bible record makes it. They reject the Bible record, because of those things which are to them evidences from the earth itself, that the world has existed tens of thousands of years. And many who profess to believe the Bible record are at a loss to account for wonderful things which are found in the earth, with the view that creation week was only seven literal days, and that the world is now only about six thousand years old. These, to free themselves of difficulties thrown in their way by infidel geologists, adopt the view that the six days of creation were six vast, indefinite periods, and the day of God's rest was another indefinite period; making senseless the fourth commandment of God's holy law. Some eagerly receive this position, for it destroys the force of the fourth commandment, and they feel a freedom from its claims upon them. They have limited ideas of the size of men, animals and trees before the flood, and of the great changes which then took place in the earth."... https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/106.357#358
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Bible Study
Yesterday at 05:07 AM
Rereading Rick's OP post On Joel 2:23-32

Here's how I understand that passage.

I see the verses 23-27 as being literal promises of literal rain in the spring and fall, which farmers depended on to grow bountiful crops. Their return to God would end the drought and insect damage, and God would enable them to fill their barns with wheat and other produce.

Secondly, in Joel 2:28-32, the literal spring and fall rains are an example of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. That includes the two rains, the early rain and the latter rain.

In Acts 2 Peter claims the promise in Joel 2.
The Pentecostal outpouring of the Holy Spirit is considered the "spring" or early rain.
The outpouring that caused the church to take root and grow.

But that's just the early rain, Joel's predictions includes things that did not happen at Penticost.

The latter rain will come to empower God's people to give the last "loud cry" and prepare them to stand in the time of trouble (which is touched on in Joel 2)

So it's not actually a dual fulfillment.
There was the early "rain" at Pentecost
The latter rain comes shortly before the final events wrap up.
Two different parts of the same prophecy.

Under the figure of the early and the latter rain, that falls in Eastern lands at seedtime and harvest, the Hebrew prophets foretold the bestowal of spiritual grace in extraordinary measure upon God's church. The outpouring of the Spirit in the days of the apostles was the beginning of the early, or former, rain, and glorious was the result. . . . But near the close of earth's harvest, a special bestowal of spiritual grace is promised to prepare the church for the coming of the Son of man. This outpouring of the Spirit is likened to the falling of the latter rain. {FLB 333.2}
The latter rain, ripening earth's harvest, represents the spiritual grace that prepares the church for the coming of the Son of man.

There is however, another personal application: each person needs the "early rain" in their experience, to prepare them to receive the latter rain'

But unless the former rain has fallen, there will be no life; the green blade will not spring up. Unless the early showers have done their work, the latter rain can bring no seed to perfection. . . . {FLB 333.3}

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Bible Study
02/02/23 09:06 PM
I see, EGW's comments are not to be considered.
So if a person can come up with an interpretation that causes people to reject her writings, is that a good thing, even when an interpretation that fully supports her writings can be plainly shown?

Revelation gives the story of history in cyclic revelations.
So we see in chapters 1-12 the prophecies keep going over the same history from start to finish several times each time showing a different aspect of what's going on during this time.
Chapter 12 takes us even further back to the spiritual powers at the root of the conflict, and then announces the last war at the time of the end.
Chapters 13 to 19 describe the last war. The end time events
Chapters 20 -22 tell us what happens after Christ's second coming

Thus Revelation 8:2-5 Tells us what Christ is DOING in heaven during the same time period when the trumpets sound on earth.

First Christ is ministering in the holy place at the altar of incense
He will take the coals of the altar, put them in the golden censer to continue His work in the Most Holy.
---- that act was always done on the day atonement.
When He comes out, yes, He will cast down the censer showing it is done.
THEN the thunders and voices, lightning and earthquake, etc.

See it outlined in the chart below.
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Bible Study
02/02/23 07:09 PM
I agree that we apply the principles from each fulfilment of Daniel's prophecies to our time. For HISTORY is repeated, not the prophecy itself. We are to learn and take warning, these situations will rebound they haven't gone away.

When it comes to Daniel and Revelation I don't believe it's about what Daniel or John were thinking nor is it about trying to fit the visions into their present situations. I fully believe those visions were God Himself revealing to these prophets things far beyond their capability of thinking, God revealed to them in prophetic revelation the broad picture covering all time from their day to the full restoration of God's kingdom at the end of the world.

Even Daniel nine, is NOT JUST about "what might have been" for the Jews. Yes, it reveals that Israel was given another 490 years to embrace the covenant so they could have experienced "what might have been". God gave them that extended time period, for God always gives full opportunity to reach the promises given in the classical prophecies.
Yet Daniel nine already indicates they will NOT receive those promises for they would choose the wrong prince. There is the interplay of two different princes in Daniel nine. Messiah the Prince that came to save, and the prince that comes to destroy.

God's foreknowledge includes not only what will happen, it also includes what might have been.
So we see here in Daniel 9 something that could have gone two different ways, 490 years and the Messiah would come to establish their kingdom in righteousness, but if they are on a different agenda, and reject Him (which they did) the prince they chose, when they shouted "we have no king but Caesar, " would destroy their city and their sanctuary.
Messiah the Prince would be "cut off" crucified, in the midst of the final week of grace, and they would reap the fruits of their choice.

Daniel 7 and 8's primary focus is NOT on the Jewish nation.
Interestingly Daniel 8 has the kingdoms, Persia and Greece, pictured as sacrificial animals, a ram and a goat, as they ruled while Israel's temple was still there offering pardon and hope during the 69 weeks (483 years). But the horn that came up after them, and ruled, was not attached to any sacrificial animal. It came up out of west and conquered. The earthly temple was left desolate, its sacrificial system had ended. It was also destroyed for the Jewish nation had rejected the Lamb of God!

Notice -- Daniel does NOT speak of any sacrificing in connection with the horn in Daniel eight. The translators of the Bible ADDED the word, "sacrifice", to the daily. The DAILY is a noun, not an adjective.
Daniel told us in Daniel 9:27 that Messiah the Prince would cause sacrifices and oblations to cease in the midst of the last week of the 490 years.
After that the "daily" ministration was carried on in the heavenly sanctuary, where Christ had entered having fulfilled the sacrifice on the cross.
The earthly sanctuary would be desolate till the end of time.

Daniel eight focuses on the attack on the Sanctuary where Christ is ministering.
Daniel, himself, did NOT understand, yes, Daniel was concerned about the situation of the Jewish people, and this vision in chapter eight trouble him so much he fainted and was sick for several days. He could not understand it. This wasn't something he came up with, it was God revealing something that reached far beyond Daniel's thinking or understanding.
So in Daniel 9 the angel returns to show where the Jewish nation fit into the picture of this long vision, but that covered only 490 of 2300 years.

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Bible Study
02/02/23 02:35 PM
The whole message of the seven trumpets is about the close of probation, which the introduction's snapshot proves, not only the sixth trumpet. The trumpet sound is not a past event(s) because the seven angels prepared themselves to sound after Jesus cast down the fire of the golden altar, indicating the close of probation.

The prophecy book, Revelation, is given to all the believers of Jesus Christ. With that said, the account of EG White's quotes does not substantiate the biblical interpretation.

Rev. 8:5-6 "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."
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Natural Health
01/31/23 10:11 PM
Last year in June, MIT scientist, Dr. Stephanie Seneff warned that by 2025, half of all U.S. children would be autistic.
There are some others that have been warning and suggesting the causes of this increase.
Seneff points to things as herbicides (Roundup) as well as vac@ines as the cause

And if we look at the dramatic increase in the number of children being diagnosed with autism, it?s difficult not to think about these things, even if the main line media boo hoos investigation and calls all suggested reasons as "myth" and removes the credentials of doctors who sound a warning.

Even in my own range of acquaintances I'm shocked at the high ratio of boys (and it seems the boys are hit the most, at least around here) who have some level of autism.

Autism apocalypse

What would our world be like if this prediction came true?
The ones I know with autism, though they have a certain level of functioning normally with abilities, still they have pretty big problems carrying out a normal, competent, self reliant, adult life.

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Bible Study
01/31/23 07:32 AM
Originally Posted by Kevin H
this comes from the understanding that the 7 trumpets are the little time of trouble prior to the close of probation

Thanks for clarifying. You probably agree more with Karen, than with me in the placements of the trumpets. Though she believes probation closes in the sixth trumpet, which I don't think is your view.
In my understanding six of the trumpets sounded in the past, and we are now in the Seventh Trumpet, the writer, John, giving us the endpoint of that trumpet, before giving events leading up to the conclusion.

I can understand your discomforted in the phrase they "repented not" for God has always had His faithful who have not "bowed the knee to Baal."
In my understanding the sixth trumpet announces that restraint on evil was loosened, four bound angels were loosed. God's protection withdrawn from a church both east and west,a church that was counterfeiting God's salvation and persecuting those who were holding on to truths. Vast armies of Moslems and others, attacked the unfaithful, counterfeiting, intolerant church. The Byzantine church lost it's center (Constantinople) and fled mainly north to Russia. The Roman church also suffered considerably. But these entities and their followers did not repent.

Revelation 11 depicts the rise of humanism/atheisms in the French Revolution. They tried to destroy the two witness (Old and New Testament).
But instead of destroying them, the bible gained never seen before popularity and distribution .

The numbers 10th and 7000 are interesting, but it's the tenth part of the city and it fell, Kind of, doesn't sound like they are representing God's true followers. Though maybe, when the Huguenots fled France, 10% of the population was gone. Though they fled much earlier. And the 7000 who were slain? During the French revolution a huge number of people died. These 7000 could Maybe be martyrs?
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Bible Study
01/31/23 12:46 AM
Dedication: I like your above post, makes me think. If I may, please let me share some on one of your points:

"1. There is no mention of blood, or Christ touching the four horns in Rev. 9:13. That interpretation is based on "maybe" "could be" ideas, not on the text itself.
There is nothing that hints probation is closed at that point. Repentance is mentioned twice showing that the action of the sixth trumpet angel in unleashing the restrained evil angels, was meant to shake up the people and bring them to repentance. It is highly regretted that it didn't bring them to repentance, but it COULD HAVE!"

I agree with this post. but there is something that I am not fully comfortable with; actually, I'm completely uncomfortable with; but yet the evidence seems to be there: With the 6th trumpet, instead of repenting people blame and curse God. Then comes the events in Revelation 11 where the message of the Bible grows; although rejected. But then there is the great earthquake where a tenth of the city was destroyed and 7,000 people were killed. Now, where have we seen 10% in the Bible before? (picture me tapping my forehead to remember with a tithe envelope) 10% is what belongs to God. This is a little harder, but what about the7,000? God told Elijah that there were 7,000 who did not bow to Baal. The 10% and 7,000 represent God's people. As these people who cursed God at the 6th trumpet see how God's people face martyrdom and mistreatment. As they see how God's people face persecution the Bible says that the survivors gave glory to God, leading to the 7th trumpet that says the kingdoms of this world is become the kingdom of our God and of his Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever.

This indicates a large repentance. I am uncomfortable about making this too big, but I wonder if this is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the latter rain?

Again, this comes from the understanding that the 7 trumpets are the little time of trouble prior to the close of probation; a time where believers will be martyred but their deaths will change lives. Then come the great time of trouble, the 7 last plagues, where probation has closed. No longer will believers die because their deaths cannot change hearts. Satan tries his worst to force people to curse God. Could this be that among the people who he was successful in getting to curse God in the 6th trumpet, but who was effected by the martyrdom of God's people (the 10% and 7,000) so that they turn to Christ and become a part of His kingdom, and He shall reign in their hearts forever and ever. Satan feels that since he could get them to curse God with the 6th trumpet, that he can easilly cause them to curse God again; but they stay faithful.
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Bible Study
01/31/23 12:17 AM
The idea of "Dual Fulfillment" bothers me. It is a point where I strongly dissagree with Desmond Ford. Technically what we have can be called "exegesis" how it could have been directly fulfilled if faithful, and seeing analogies where we can apply the principle from the exegesis.

Another way of looking at this which is not perfect but close enough to the truth to freely use was developed by a Catholic Theologian in the dark ages but saw something in the Bible that he called "Type" and "Antitype". We can look at the exegesis as the type and how it ended up being fulfilled, or how it will end up being fulfilled, as the antitype.

It is NOT dual fulfillments. Daniel did not have on his mind besides the events of his day and what he was looking for for God's kingdom but also had on mind Antiochus, New Testament events, Reformation events and Adventist events. Daniel saw the issues of his day and how God could restore the kingdom and the son of David. Not the other stuff. Some of which we can draw analogies, others which is simply garbage. We understand the correct analogies as we understand the exegesis. But these analogies are NOT a dual fulfillment. They are simply us saying "Hey, we can apply the principles from that time to the situation we are finding in this time." I hope this helps!!!
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Endtime Events
01/30/23 09:44 PM
In spite of the papacy's blasphemous declarations of infallibility it was clearly confirmed that the LEGAL control of the papacy over the people was gone-- it had ended in 1798

But in verse 40 things have changed. The papacy finds new military support, especially from the most powerful nation on earth.
They will seek to control, and move into what will look like defensive action at first, but will progress into aggressive action that finally resorts to massive violence.
But they will NOT win!

Jesus, Michael the leader of the whole heavenly hosts will stand up and deliver His people.
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Bible Study
01/30/23 09:31 PM
Looking at the text again.
1. There is no mention of blood, or Christ touching the four horns in Rev. 9:13. That interpretation is based on "maybe" "could be" ideas, not on the text itself.
There is nothing that hints probation is closed at that point. Repentance is mentioned twice showing that the action of the sixth trumpet angel in unleashing the restrained evil angels, was meant to shake up the people and bring them to repentance. It is highly regretted that it didn't bring them to repentance, but it COULD HAVE!

2. Order of the furniture mentioned in Moses writings?
Exodus 37, and 39, the order is different.

The purpose of the altar of incense makes it possible for forgiven people to approach God. Incense was offered every day, morning and evening. It represents Christ's merits that permit people to approach God.

A voice coming from the four horns in the temple is a call to come to God,. It's more akin to the message of the angel in Rev. 18, to come out, to accept Christ's merits, and turn to Him for salvation and protection. Trouble is coming, it's multiplying, please recognize your need, turn, repent, but they repented not but continued to trust in their idols.

3. Looking in the Old Testament for understanding:

The altar of incense in Jerusalem was God's altar representing the altar in heaven.


When Israel split away from Judea, other altars of incense were built, a main one in Bethel.
1 Kings 12, Jeroboam their king, set up these altars of incense after the pattern of the real one in Jerusalem,
and set them before golden calves and told the people, these are your gods.
12:30-32 And this thing became a sin:
he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, [even] in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense.

The type here is taking the things of God, making counterfeits, and saying they are the true.

God sent a prophet to Jeroboam who was offering incense on the counterfeit altar:
1 Kings 13:3 And he gave a sign the same day, saying, This [is] the sign which the LORD hath spoken; Behold, the altar shall be rent, and the ashes that [are] upon it shall be poured out.

Amos the prophet speaks of these counterfeit altars of incense.
3:14 That in the day that I shall visit the transgressions of Israel upon him I will also visit the altars of Bethel: and the horns of that altar shall be cut off, and fall to the ground.

This fits Revelation 9:13 very well:

9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, (the true altar of incense)
9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. (Armies released against the counterfeit, as also previously released upon Israel, armies that come to slay them )
9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these calamities yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: (counterfeits used to pretend to be the real) which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

The fact that they repented not, shows they COULD have repented. That was the hope that they would see the folly of looking to these counterfeits as the solution to their problems.

Sadly the world doesn't recognize the uselessness of their idols, they enjoy them, so they don't repent and just continue to trust in counterfeits for solutions, but they can't save or protect, just leads to misery and destruction.

The big problem --
The things of God have been taken over by a powerful religious/political identity and offered to the people as the truth, just like in the days of Jeroboam. Israel, had armies released against them. The counterfeit church had armies released to come against them, they had many serious warnings. It's all warnings -- the counterfeit will not win, turn to the true altar of salvation.

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Bible Study
01/30/23 05:42 PM
Probation is closed, no more mercy? Before the seventh trumpet sounds in which the door to the ark of the covenant is opened? And the message of the work of Christ in the Most Holy Place is given????

What about these quotes? Remember Revelation 11:19 is part of the SEVENTH Trumpet, and this was not just stated once, but several times over and over.

?The temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament.? [Revelation 11:19. (the seventh trumpet)] The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served ?unto the example and shadow of heavenly things,? this apartment was opened only upon the great day of atonement, for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and the ark of his testament was seen, points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, in 1844, as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement.
{GC 433}


In Minneapolis God gave precious gems of truth to His people in new settings. This light from heaven by some was rejected with all the stubbornness the Jews manifested in rejecting Christ, and there was much talk about standing by the old landmarks. But there was evidence they knew not what the old landmarks were. There was evidence and there was reasoning from the word that commended itself to the conscience; but the minds of men were fixed, sealed against the entrance of light, because they had decided it was a dangerous error removing the "old landmarks" when it was not moving a peg of the old landmarks, but they had perverted ideas of what constituted the old landmarks. {CW 30.1}
The passing of the time in 1844 was a period of great events, opening to our astonished eyes the cleansing of the sanctuary transpiring in heaven, and having decided relation to God's people upon the earth, [also] the first and second angels' messages and the third, unfurling the banner on which was inscribed, "The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." One of the landmarks under this message was the temple of God, seen by His truth-loving people in heaven, and the ark containing the law of God. The light of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment flashed its strong rays in the pathway of the transgressors of God's law. The nonimmortality of the wicked is an old landmark. I can call to mind
nothing more that can come under the head of the old landmarks. {CW 30.2]

As foretold in the Scriptures, the ministration of Christ in the most holy place began at the termination of the prophetic days in 1844. To this time apply the words of the Revelator, "The temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." [Revelation 11:19] The ark of God's testament is in the second apartment of the sanctuary. As Christ entered there, to minister in the sinner's behalf, the inner temple was opened, and the ark of God was brought to view. {4SP 274}

In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," the holy of holies was opened only upon the great day of atonement, the typical day of judgment, set apart for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement, "The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament," points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, at the end of the twenty-three hundred days,--in 1844,--as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. Those who by faith followed their great High Priest, as he entered upon his ministry in the most holy place, beheld the ark of the testament. (Review and Herald Nov. 9,1905)

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Adult Sabbath School
01/30/23 04:49 PM
Sin is likened to debt in scripture. A debt that we have no means to repay.

Those who think their good deeds will somehow cancel out their sins are deceived. Just like those who think paying $10 a month against a $50,000 debt will somehow cancel out the debt.

Matt. 18:23 The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a king who would take account of his servants.
18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

The king was dealing with his stewards, who were in charge of administering the affairs of his government. They were responsible to handle money belonging to the state. One of these stewards had hugely mismanaged this responsibility and embezzled or misdirected a huge amount of money. There was no way he could repay or rectify his gross mismanagement. There was also no way he could continue to live in the king's society in that condition. So the verdict was issued, he would lose everything and end up in prison. All hope the future gone.
But the terrified man fell at his feet and begged, saying, "Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

The king absorbed the loss himself and set the man free. Sin of course can never be erased by paying someone like in a monetary transaction, (to imply we can pay someone for our sins is taking the parable totally too far) but the point is that the king absorbed the losses in himself, just as Jesus
absorbed the consequences of our sin Himself on the cross. There was nothing we could do to get rid of that debt that stands against, but Jesus absorbed the consequences of our sin and died the death that we deserved so we can live the life He deserves.

Col. 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he has quickened, made us alive, together with Christ, having forgiven you all trespasses;
2:14 Cancelling out the written record with its legal demands that stood against us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Recent studies of historical writings show that word "Cheirographon" was used to show a "certificate of indebtedness". So the use of this word in this verse means: he canceled the written record of our debts.

Now it makes more sense...especially when we consider Jesus parable of the ungrateful man. The man who owed the king millions of dollars. The man was summoned to appear before the king to meet the consequences of his indebtedness. Of course he couldn't do anything about it? he was dead in a sense, dead due to his debts! No hope at all to be free from those debts. BUT THE king forgave him all his debts by canceling the written record of those debts which stood against him! The king absorbed the loss in himself, and the servant was set free to live "the new life".

The rest of the story (of the ungrateful servant ) shows we are expected to "live the new life in Christ" as well.

Matt. also likens sin to debts:
6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
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Bible Study
01/30/23 03:40 PM
The concept of the voice from the midst of the four horns has a significant implication: the OT sanctuary background undergirds the understanding.

God gave Moses precise instructions for building a sanctuary in Exodus 25:9. "According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it" (Ex. 25:9).

God begins to show the furniture of the Most Holy Place, then the articles of the Holy Place, which are the table of bread and the candlestick. Notice that an instruction to make a golden altar is not yet given in the respective order.

The intimation is that the high priest's work concludes when he applies the blood of an ox and goat upon the four horns of the golden altar on the way out from the Most Holy Place.

The instruction to make a golden altar comes after all the others of the curtains, the vail, the brazen altar, and the holy priest's garments, etc.

In Chapter 30 of Exodus, the precise instruction to make a golden altar and its placement is given at last, including Aaron's work of the day of atonement.

Ex. 30:10 "And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD."

The profound significance of blood application upon the horn, which is upon the golden altar, is that the probation is closed, and no more mercy of God is available.

Therefore, when a voice comes out from the four horns of the altar suggests that God's mercy ended for the probation of humanity. The sixth trumpet is speaking about a future event: God's mercy has not finished yet.

Rev. 9:13 "The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God."
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Adult Sabbath School
01/30/23 06:39 AM

Proverbs 22:7 The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

The world is dealing in debt, encouraging debt, making it super easy to be in debt.
Many people are in debt over their heads. The paradox: people think they are free when they have several credit cards to buy whatever their hearts desire. An illusion that they have lots of money to spend. But it's money they don't possess. Standing debts ENSLAVE a person. Your wages are no longer yours, they must go to pay off the credit cards, not just what one spent but huge interests rates added.
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Bible Study
01/29/23 07:31 AM
Since we understand Revelation from rather different viewpoints, my explanation needs a little background information

Revelation is first and foremost the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Christ in the heavenly sanctuary dealing with the sin problem.

I see revelation showing Christ's ministry through all THREE representatives of the earthly sanctuary.
1. The outer court with it?s altar of sacrifice and laver. This is where the sacrifice is slain.
2. The holy place, with it?s table of bread, altar of incense and its candlestick, where the priest ministers daily.
3. The Most Holy Place, with its ark of the covenant and mercy seat, where the Priest ministers on the day of Atonement.
These three steps have their reality in the heavenly ministry of the heavenly sanctuary.

Christ's all sufficient sacrifice took place on earth (represented by the outer court)
But that was just the beginning of the sanctuary work. Hebrews announces Christ entered the heavenly sanctuary, the holy places, as our High Priest.

I see Revelation 4 and 5 as the scene of Christ's ascension and acceptance as the only One Worthy "For you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood" (Rev,5:9)
Compare with Hebrews 5:5-6 "Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him,
?You are my Son, today I have begotten you?; as he says also in another place, ?You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.?

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek."

He was the only One Who was worthy to take the scroll, make intercession for the people, forgive their sins, and execute all the conditions of the covenant.
Revelation chapters four to five is the grand opening of the heavenly sanctuary work as the only One worthy to be High Priest having lived, died and risen again, is given the book of the covenant ."the roll of the history of God's providences, the prophetic history of nations and the church. Herein was contained the divine utterances, His authority, His commandments, His laws, the whole symbolic counsel of the Eternal, and the history of all ruling powers in the nations. In symbolic language was contained in that roll the influence of every nation, tongue, and people from the beginning of earth's history to its close".9MR 7.1

Revelation reveals Christ's work in the Holy Place with its incense and candlesticks.
Revelation 4 what do we see, do we see the furniture of the holy place, or the most holy? It is the furniture of the holy place.

AND A VOICE IS HEARD!!! A door in heaven is open. (Rev. 4:1) And a voice like a trumpet said, "Come up here, I will show things which must take place. What door is this?
The word "door" "thura," in Revelation 4:1 appears many times in the Septuagint in direct reference to the door into the sanctuary itself. Leviticus 3:1 tells us the sacrifice is killed at the "thura" of the tabernacle.

And here in heaven we see the Lamb that has already been slain! The sacrifice was offered, and now the door into the heavenly sanctuary is open. This is the door into the holy place.

Some contend that because God's throne is a central feature in these chapters, it must mean that Christ began His ministry immediately in the Most Holy Place, for, they say God's throne is only in the Most Holy Place. But the Bible does not confine it thus. Any place where God's throne is, is extremely Holy. However, look in the last chapters of Revelation, and you will see God's throne in the center of New Jerusalem where there is no temple. Look in the first chapters of Ezekiel and you will see God's throne on living wheels within wheels, accompanied by four beasts and angels, moving! God's throne is central! Look in Daniel 7 and see God's throne on wheels as well. Thrones being set up. God is very much involved and interested in our salvation as Christ is. God and Jesus are One! They work together. Why place human limitations on where God can be, and keep Him on a stationary throne, and then build a doctrine on such a limitation?

Besides we see in chapter 4 and 5, the furniture of the Holy Place not the Most Holy. We see seven lampstands and we see the twenty-four elders with golden bowls full of incense. This is part of the daily. It isn't until later in the book of Revelation that judgment is announced, and then we see the furniture from the Most Holy.

Revelation 8, we see Christ in the Holy Place by the altar of incense interceding for people, offering incense with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar.
This is Jesus work in the Holy Place for 1810 years of earth's history.
If you study the pattern, it isn't till the priest fills the censor with coals from the altar that He enters the Most Holy. While the scene tells us this will also happen at the end, the first part is obvious;y showing what Christ was doing in the Holy Place.

The first one was calling John to "come and see" in Rev. 4:1 Come and see the opening of the sanctuary.
The second one is in Rev. 5:2 " I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
And all the angel's and elders and living creatures respond with a loud voice "Worthy is the Lamb Who was slain..." The work in the sanctuary can begin, the Worthy One to be it's High Priest has been found and He will implement all the things written in the book of the covenant.
In chapter 18:4 we hear urgent voice from heaven calling God's people out of Babylon before it is too late.
And yes, there is also a voice when everything "is done"
So the voices have things to announce all through the Christian era! All through the time the sanctuary in heaven is dealing with the sin problems of earth.

So what does all this mean concerning the text under discussion?
Rev. 9:13-14 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet. Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

What furniture do we see here? We see the altar of incense. Where is the altar of incense in the earthly example? In the holy place.
The fact that the sixth trumpet is initiated from the altar of incense shows that the prayers of God's people are still being mixed with incense by Jesus . Probation is open. Jesus is still at the altar of incense.

At the sounding of the sixth trumpet, 4 angels are released from their bondage at the Euphrates river by the 6th angel, Rev. 9:16 ?So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind".
This voice is announcing that things in the world are about to get much worse. Evil angels that had been bound, restrained, are released. But it's not the end, there is still time to repent, there is still mercy being extended.
While evil is allowed to greatly intensify it's power, people need to remember the power of the four horns on the altar of incense.
Those four horns symbolized salvation's power, protection, refuge. {Ps.18:2, 1 Kings 1:50, Luke 1:69)
They are still part of the altar of incense, they have not been cut off.
As evil multiplies, the message is to flee to the altar of incense, grab firm hold on those four horns, repent, Christ offers salvation.

Back in OT times, Israel fell into worshipping other gods, and even built altars with four horns to worship these gods.
Amos 3:14 When God punishes Israel for their transgression He will visit these false altars and cut off their horns.
The sixth trumpet angel in Rev. 9:20 reveals transgressions as worshipping demons as people clung to their idols of gold, silver, brass, stone.

There was no strength of salvation in those false alters. When trouble comes, serious trouble, the horns on those idol alters break off. They don't protect anyone, those who trust in them are prey to their enemies. Sadly the world doesn't recognize the uselessness of their idols, they don't repent and just continue to trust in counterfeits..
But there is a true altar of incense with four horns of salvation offered to anyone who would grab firm hold of those four horns, repent and accept Christ's salvation.

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Revival & Reformation
01/27/23 11:38 PM
Reckon ourselves dead to sin.

As we seek, and ask for revival and respond to the Holy Spirit's leading. He will lead us to genuine repentance.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Do we believe this?

True repentance means giving all our sins to Jesus. Jesus died the penalty of those sins, they no longer condemn us to death, we have been redeemed, justified! Declared righteous!

Now what? Do we simply enter a cycle of sin, repent, sin, repent?

How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? (Romans 6:2)
Before repentance and justification, we were trapped and ?dead in sin?. (Eph 2: 1) But God, in His grace, has freed us from sin. When we repented and gave it all to Christ, He justified us (just as if we had never sinned) Baptism symbolizes this! Dying to the old carnal nature we ?died to sin? and are alive in Christ. (Rom 6:2) It is therefore absurd to think that God?s grace has given us a free license to sin ? to live as if we were never justified and still in bondage to our flesh and fallen nature.

Romans 6: 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life....6 knowing this, that our old man {carnal nature} was crucified with Him, that the body of sin (all our binding sins might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, [consider]reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Reckon and count as true our status in Christ. We are to reckon, believe ourselves as being dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. To reckon is an imperative to believe we have been rescued from sin and its condemnation, and clothed with robe of Christ's righteousness, freed from sin and its power, and in no way do we want to go back into that bondage again, thus we continually lay hold of our status in Christ.
We desire to be in that group pictured in Revelations 3:4 that walk with Christ and have not soiled their robes.

When we count it to be true in our lives, it changes the way we live. Reckoning is not a command for us to try to die to sin, but to consider ourselves dead to sin and alive to righteosness.

In simpler terms.
A person who has been pulled out of a hopeless, degrading situation, and believes they are set free, with a bright future full of acceptance, love and enablement, isn't as likely to go back to their old ways,
While a person who insists their hopeless, degrading situation is impossible to change, even if pulled out, is likely to sink right back in.

Jesus came, not only to forgive us of our sin, but to break the power of sin and set us free to serve Him.

What happens in the new birth is not a sudden sinless life, it is a complete change of thinking. There is still a battle, but it is a Spirit-empowered, persevering, clinging to Christ, hating sin, new being, We belong to Christ, no longer slaves to sin and we will, by the power of the Holy Spirit, though we may slip, keep sin from getting a grip on us again,

The new creation in Christ is a fighter. Paul said at the end of his life, ?I have fought the good fight? (2 Timothy 4:7), and he tells Timothy, ?Fight the good fight? (1 Timothy 6:12). And he means the fight for holiness, the fight to stay closely connected with our Redeemer and Savior,
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Bible Study
01/27/23 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by dedication
But I very much disagree with putting all the trumpets in the future, and denying the role they have played throughout Christian history.

It's okay to disagree with me. What I cannot agree with the historical interpretation is that the fact there was a voice from the temple of God when the sixth trumpet sounded.
Have you ever understood the plain text? I challenge you if you can explain it biblically for me please.

Rev. 9:13 "The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is beforeGod."
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Bible Evidence
01/27/23 05:38 AM
The recent Signs of the Times has an article on this subject.

Creation vx Evolution, No Middle Ground

"Some theologians have told me they take the Bible seriously but not literally. What does that mean?"

What would you think if someone told you -- take the cookbook seriously but not literal? Or how about taking your marriage vows seriously but not literal? Or I take the map seriously, but not literally?

They argue that evolution through millions of years was the way God created. On the surface, this may seem to solve the problem, but a few serious difficulties arise with this model.
First of all, the Bible says it did not happen this way. Second, it really is not consistent with either the Bible or science. Theistic and atheistic evolution interpret the scientific evidence exactly the same way, but theistic evolution inserts the supernatural into the process. How can this be "scientific"? Theistic evolution is the conventional, secular worldview with a few religious ideas awkwardly inserted, and the result is not a coherent scenario.....
Theistic evolution claims that God used evolution as His method of creation. If that were true, then God must have invented evolution, along with its endless train of suffering and death. In that case, evolution and its necessary component of death would be God's plan and not the result of Satan's work.
We have three clear choices:
(1) evil, suffering, and death were initiated by God (theistic evolution);
(2) they (evil, suffering and death) are a natural part of a godless evolutionary process (atheistic evolution); or
(3) they (evil, suffering and death) were initiated by Satan as part of a great cosmic war with God--the great controversy between Christ and Satan (the literal Bible story).
For those of us who outright reject the second option, the choice is between, on the one hand, a Creator God who is directly responsible for evil and death as part of His plan, or on the other hand, evil and death being inserted by Satan into God's originally good creation. Whether we have a coherent explanation for evil depends on whether we take the Bible's stories of Creation, the Fall, and redemption seriously and literally (Genesis 1:3; 1 Corinthians 15).
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Bible Study
01/27/23 04:00 AM
Continued from previous page

The Power of the Second Angels Message "

Babylon is fallen, but truth still needs to be proclaimed to all nations, tongues and people.

The first angel's message was being proclaimed in the early 1840's, Having mapped out the 3200 years of Daniel 8:14, the message that the "hour of God's
'judgment had come," and the sanctuary was to be cleansed and people were urged to prepare their hearts and minds to meet their Creator and Savior.
True, they mistakenly thought the sanctuary to be cleansed was this earth. They had not yet studied about the heavenly sanctuary where Jesus, our High Priest was ministering for His people. Never the less, they preached the message that the "hour of the judgment had come. They prayed together, confessing their sinners and seeking after righteousness, urging people to worship God.

But the denominational churches scoffed. They rejected the evidence from scripture that gave them a time line announcing a great change was being marked out, in the heavenly time table in relationship to the salvation of human beings. Thus they placed themselves in a position so they could not see the light of the second angel's message.

Being rejected and scoffed at by the human religious leaders as well as the common people, would discourage anyone.
But those who had heard the first angel, now heard the second, and were ENCOURAGED!
Their message urging people to be serious in their worship of God, coupled with the 2300 days, the sanctuary being cleansed, the hour of God's judgment having come, was not of human origin!

There was a great shaking! They had felt the moving of the Holy spirit in a mighty way, and seen convincing truth in scripture, would they now deny all that and go back into the fellowship of those heaping ridicule and mocking their experience?

The second angel message encouraged them to LOOK UP, don't look at earthly religious leaders, they are fallen. babylon is fallen. The Lord is leading you out of babylon! The message was heart searching, and led the believers to seek a living experience for themselves . Now they knew that they could not lean upon any scholar, or religious leader. They had to search the scriptures for themselves.
And they found it, in scripture. The timeline and the message from scripture WAS correct. But nowhere did scripture say the "sanctuary: was this earth. And Scripture plainly told them the 1st angel was not the last, they had more work to do before the second coming/ They were to dig deeper and uncover the truths babylon had hidden. They were to see the work of Christ more clearly..

During this "time of the end" beginning in 1844, it is God's intention to restore every lost or downplayed truth. --- Many truths had been rediscovered previously during the Reformation, but the Reformation faltered, even men like Luther, back tracked in several points to fit in a little better with the state church. Now again doctrines that are in clear opposition to standard mainline churches' doctrines were brought forth:
The Sanctuary
The Sabbath
Death the wages of sin and man's condition in death.
The second coming and the millennium
Creation/fall/restoration theme
All had beeen to some extent (or fully) been replaced by man's traditions and philosophies, and/or merging with pagan ideas, and the pure truth needed to be found in Scripture and understood in the light of Christ and His work in saving sinners

The Second angel's verification that "Babylon" was fallen, as well as seeing various churches' doctrines in contradiction to the voice of God in scripture, enabled those who came through the experience to find truth from scripture, for themselves. They were sure God had led them through their past experience and would lead them to fuller truth concerning doctrines and prophecy. .

The power of the second angel, alerts us that the world's explanations of the things of God are shifting sand, look to the rock, the Word of God and ask the Holy Spirit to guide the seeker to truth.


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Bible Study
01/26/23 09:10 AM
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The message is all about the gospel. It's a call back to everlasting gospel, that is to go to all the world! A call to return to the true gospel. A return to worship our Creator God, the God of the Bible, the One Who spoke, and it stood fast. The One Who created the earth in six literal days. The One Who has given all to restore us to our initial status as His companions, sharing His image, His character.

The time is here, it has now come, when judgment commences. The time when the evidence is laid out before the whole heavenly universe that God is good, just, loving, full of grace and totally fair and holy. Also, the evidence is presented of those who responded to the true gospel and are saved by His grace, and transformed by His Spirit, with God's law written upon their hearts and minds.
The guest list to the Lamb's wedding supper is being verified. Those who remain in the book of life, follow the Lamb in trust and obedience wherever He leads. (14:4) Jesus says concerning them; ?they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. For he that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. ? (Rev. 3:4-5) I will cover their sins and blot those sins out of the book. (Neh. 4:5, Heb.10:16,17)

2nd Angel
14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Notice that the everlasting gospel, according to the first angel, is to be preached to every nation, tribe, and people; everyone dwelling upon the earth.
Yet the next two angels have shifted the focus from the world to Babylon. They are warning people about Babylon. Is Babylon the world, with it's worldliness? Not really, because Rev. 18:4, says God?s people are in Babylon and need to get out. Babylon is not a literal city filled with wicked people who force the world to drink alcohol and engage in immorality.

Babylon is symbolized as a woman in Rev. 17. A woman symbolizes God?s church in scripture. Babylon professes to be a follower of God. But Babylon is a harlot, an unfaithful church who joins herself with the kings of the earth. Thus Babylon has the APPEARANCE of having the gospel, but having fallen, she has perverted the gospel and it's power, and is relying on human kings and governors for her power. She uses civil powers to force all nations to ?drink? her false gospel and accept a counterfeit lord and king.

instead of offering the pure water of the everlasting gospel, she is offering wine (a false gospel and counterfeit doctrines) But the people, in all nations are drunk with these doctrines -- their spiritual senses deadened, happily deceived.

The urgency of the warning is to expose the deception. Warning people who are looking for the gospel not to be drawn into a deadly counterfeit. Urging people in the deception to wake up!
30 1,152 more...
Natural Health
01/26/23 08:33 AM
Healthy Planet has free shipping if order is over $59.99

5 57 more...
Bible Study
01/26/23 07:47 AM
One thing I agree -- this is a serious subject with eternal meaning, and we need the seal of God, and the sealing power of the Holy Spirit. The urgency to be right with the Lord NOW, Today, while the Holy Spirit is still calling, is the day of salvation, we can't count on tomorrow.

But I very much disagree with putting all the trumpets in the future, and denying the role they have played throughout Christian history.

Rev 10:7 In the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God shall be finished.

Note "in the days of the 7th angel when he shall begin to sound" -- that's when the final events take place. When it's finished sounding, that's when it's all over here. Yes, seven is a number of completion.

But the first six trumpets have been warning generations after generations throughout the Christian era.
For every generation must stand before the judgment seat of Christ (Romans 14:10, 2 Cor. 5:10)

Also the plagues are directed, not so much against nations that have never professed to know and follow Christ. Those plagues are directed against those who have taken the cloak of being God's representatives, counterfeiting the God's truth with falsehood, deceiving people, and using force to make the people accept the counterfeits. People and nations that are joined to them, or end up joining them, also suffer the plagues.

The other six trumpets have already warned us about this:
Like first -- the Jewish thought leaders, claiming to serve God, while rejecting Christ, Emmanuel, God with us, and persecuting those who did receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Those supposed leaders claiming to represent God -- Jesus told them they had given themselves over to do Satan's bidding! (John 8:41-44) Their house would be desolate (Matt. 23:38) They suffered the first trumpet , the result of their deceptive role as leaders, leading their nation to reject the only One Who could save them.
"The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow." GC 37
That was a warning trumpet!

The second -- Roman Empire making Christianity their state religion (mainly as a government unifying thing, not a life changing relationship with Christ) enforcing their version of Christianity on all while denying the power of the Savior. There was corruption every bit as bad and worse taking place after Christianity was decreed and enforced upon the Empire, as before Christianity became its state religion. The trumpet sounded for them, as mobs of barbarians wrecked their Empire.

The rest of the trumpets' warnings
Papal Rome -- polluted the living water of the gospel with false doctrines, traditions and pagan renovations, while taking upon themselves the prerogatives of God over the souls of the people, and persecuting those who sought the pure streams.

Armies were unleashed against fallen Christianity, for fallen Christianity persecuted true believers, and enforced their version of Christianity upon the people.

It's this deceptive religions/political power that claims to be the representative of the Savior, but are actually following a demonic guide (yes, they have dedicated the world to "Mary", who is no relation to the Mary of the Bible).

Yes, Satan is also filling the world with evil, unrest, strife, but in the end -- Christianity will make it's big backlash against all the corruption now taking place and set up a world religion under the papal head, in which catholics, protestants AND pagan religions unite hands, and enforce the papal mandates (which includes trampling on the true Sabbath and setting up and enforcing the counterfeit Sabbath. Using civil power and military power (Europe - ten horns) and (two horned beast - America) the religious entities take hold of the power of the governments -- the time of trouble will be here. Everything right now is preparing for this. Dissenters will be persecuted.
That's when the plagues will fall, and the end will come quickly.

We've received all the warnings! Burying history, is burying the warnings.
The three angel's message, combined with the fourth angel of Rev. 18 is the last urgent call. Most will be deceived thinking the coming swing to the right is a good thing. Will we recognize the deception?
Or are we so busy putting all the prophecies into the future we won't see the real problem as the great deception descends upon the world?
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Natural Health
01/25/23 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by Daryl
Check out Shaklee Canada

This seems to be a good site with free shipping for purchases of $150 or more, otherwise their shipping charge is $11.00 per shipment.

They have saw palmetto and other good vitamin products.

You will notice that I edited my post a couple of times.
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