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Yesterday at 07:33 AM
The doctrine concerning the state of the dead is foundational to understanding several other doctrines.
For example -- the doctrine of the sanctuary. If people go to heaven or hell when they die, the idea of an investigative judgment prior to the second coming no longer makes sense.
The resurrection -- why is it needed if people don't really die. If people are in heaven right after the die, then why have a resurrection? Some say because they need their bodies. But why would anyone want the old body. The Bible promises glorious new bodies at the second coming. Actually the whole second coming loses it's meaning and is presented in a very different way when people believe the dead aren't really dead.
Then of course there is spiritism and that whole deception.
Though when talking to people about some of our doctrines, it is often good to know their understanding of state of the dead, as a lot of our beliefs just don't fit into their understanding of what happens to the dead. The understanding is often a prerequisite to understanding some our other doctrins.
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07/07/26 08:27 PM
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07/06/26 07:49 PM
Lesson TwoThe Message of the CrossMemory Verse: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:18, NIV).Paul emphasizes the centrality and importance of the cross. 1 Cor. 1:17-31, "the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing" "to us who are being saved it is the power of God." "a stumbling block to the Jews" "foolishness to the Greek" "but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, (the message of the cross) is Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" Col. 1:20, Through the blood of the cross, Christ --reconcile all things to Himself, --made peace 1 Pet. 2:24, -- bore our sins in His own body on the tree 1 Cor. 2:1-5 --I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. --that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. To the worldly mind the cross seems very opposite to the concept of success and personal fulfilment. Someone being crucified is the ultimate defeat, someone laying down their life is opposite to the "look after self first", it all sounds like defeat and giving up, to the carnal mind. So we see even religions backing away from the cross. Muslims believe in the historic Christ -- they believe Jesus lived on earth, they even believe he is in heaven and will return, but they deny his divinity, they deny He is the Son of God, and think of Him as only a great prophet, on equal or lower status to their prophet. Yet the Biblcal fact is that, yes, was with God and was God, with God (John 1:1) Jesus died on that cross and rose again and has made salvation to be freely offered to all who will believe and come to Him. The Jews wanted their nation to be exalted, to have their enemies destroyed, they weren't looking for a Messiah who would die for their sins and deliver them from sin. So yes, the gospel seems "foolish", to many, whose focus is on the quickest and easiest road to succeed. Yet, in the end, as one looks back over history, and hears about people rising to fame in a brief flash of momentary success, only to be trodden under by the next ambitious mortal, or disease or war, strikes them down. One can't help but realize, how short and temporal is life itself, here on earth. Like a flash and it is gone. Yet, Christ offers life, everlasting life, with joy we can";. Why does so much of humanity turn their backs on Him, and go after the temporary, believing the cross is just foolishness?
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07/04/26 06:56 PM
Roughly 2000 years ago John the apostle wrote: 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is a hand. A serious question in all this "reconsideration" is how does it reveal to us Jesus Christ and His testimony? A testimony that enables us to overcome the dragon by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony. Rev. 12:11 How can turning Revelation from a historicist view point, into a futuristic view point make it a reliable prophecy? There needs to be a foundation in order to find understanding, Has anyone considered that the trumpets lay out the history for us to look back upon and learn, because, yes, HISTORY will repeat, (not prophecy but history repeats) and we all know the saying, it is those who refuse to learn from history who are bound to repeat it. Each of the trumpets reveals something about people's response or rather distortion or rejection of the gospel, throughout history and it's non-redemptive and destructive results. Now it is true that in the end every form of evil power will unite to overthrow truth. But what are these key forms of power? I believe the trumpets have already revealed them. "Every form of evil is to spring into intense activity. Evil angels unite their powers with evil men, and as they have been in constant conflict and attained an experience in the best modes of deception and battle, and have been strengthening for centuries, they will not yield the last great final contest without a desperate struggle." {Mar 257.4} What are the "modes of deception" that evil angels have developed as the best modes of deception over the centuries? The fact that the plagues allude to them all being active in the last struggle does NOT mean they were not developed in historic sequence in the past. We don't have to destroy their relevance in the past, to know every form of evil is to spring into intense activity in the end. However, as we look at the historic progression it can "remind us that other believers also have drunk of the cup and been baptized with the baptism. He who sustained these early witnesses to the truth will not forsake His people in the final conflict." {CTr 314.2} Revelation is very much about Christ and the sanctuary truths -- but where in this reconsideration is Christ, as He takes His place as our high priest, and pours out the first Pentecost upon His church, and begins His ministry in the heavenly sanctuary? Rev. 4 and 5 is not about judgement, it's all about Christ beginning the sanctuary message of DELIVERANCE. It begins with great consternation (NOT about who will execute judgment on sinners, as all sinners are already doomed due to their sin) the consternation shows that all hope of salvation is gone if no one is found to open the book of covenant. Then Jesus Who has completed the sacrifice, ratifying the covenant with His own blood, opened the door of salvation. "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain, for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." Everyone rejoices with great joy, singing His praises day and night! Revelation 8:2-5 also gives an outline of Christ's whole sanctuary work. Beginning with His work in the Holy Place before the altar of incense as He mediates for the saints, then He takes the coals from the altar and puts them in the censor. Something that was done every year by the high priest BEFORE He entered the Most Holy Place. He would carry the censor with Him into the Holy Place, as it poured forth smoke of incense throughout the Most Holy. It's only once that phase ministry is done that the censor is cast down . Thus we see Christ, first in Holy Place, then preparing to enter the Most Holy, it's only once He is finished and comes out, that the censor is thrown down. And notice: The angels were given the trumpets already in verse 2. These are two sequences, that happen at the same time, they run parallel. All the time the trumpets are warning people to turn away from evil, Christ is ministering in the sanctuary, mediating for the people, it's not until the END of the seventh trumpet that we see both these sequences ending with thunder, lightning, earthquake, etc. (Rev. 8:5 and Rev. 11:19) They start together and end together. Revelation covers the WHOLE sanctuary doctrine, repeatedly, not just the investigative judgment. The churches, seals, and trumpets all announce the investigative judgment at the end of their sequence, they cover both the time of Christ's ministry in the holy and then the Most Holy. Churches -- 6th church, Christ moves to open one door of the sanctuary and closes the first. Indicating the time of the great disappointment when Christ moves from the Holy to the Most Holy. The seventh is the church living during the investigative judgment who are either "spewed out" if not with Christ, or promised to sit with Christ on His throne if they cherish His presence here on earth. Seals -- 5th seal has martyrs, who have not yet received judgment, they are crying out for judgment, given "white robes" told to wait. The 6th seal reveals the signs announcing the beginning of judgement, and revealing the outcome, with the unsealed running in terror from Christ, while the sealed receive salvation and stand on the sea of glass. 7th Trumpet -- the time has come of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward... the Most Holy Place is opened to view. They all cover the full time from Christ's return to heaven until His second coming. THE ROLE OF THE LAST CHURCH Where is the prophecy concerning the development of the last church in all of this? Did God raise a last church with a special message? That prophecy is there in a powerful way, IF one sees things in a historicist manner. The church with the three angel's message, comes into existence AFTER the sixth trumpet. The great disappointment, the formation of the Adventist church, and it's sanctuary message, as well as it's 3 angel message, is clearly revealed in Rev. 10 and the first part of 11. God's last church (Seventh-day Adventist church) is formed after the 1260 years have ended. This is all clearly confirmed in Ellen White's writings, who also clearly tells us the seventh trumpet began in 1844. She identifies the "seven thunders" in Rev. 10 as beginning in 1842, involved in raising awareness of the coming "judgment hour" (ushering in, and obviously part of the seventh trumpet). The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God, most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer. {1MR 99.3} This time which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, {1MR 99.3}
The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament." Revelation 11:19. The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," this apartment was opened only upon the great Day of Atonement for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. {GC 432-433} Well, if a historic timeline is turned into a futuristic timeline, then any event can be 'shoehorned' in so you control the narrative. And some feel it would be to their advantage...
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07/04/26 11:30 AM
Lesson OnePaul's Ministry in Corinth Texts to think about for This Week's Study: 1 Cor. 1:1," Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God" Gal. 1:1, "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father , Paul identifies himself as an apostle,-- the title is highly significant. It carries a lot of authority. Only the twelve and Paul are "apostles" in the strict sense of the word. Paul did not walk with Christ, as did the other apostles, during Christ's three and a half year ministry on earth, thus his claim to being an apostle may have been questioned. Yet Paul knows and experienced a direct encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus. He had been taught by God, and he knew God had called and commissioned him as an apostle. Acts 17:16-34, Paul's experience in Athens, and his sermon on "Mars Hill". 1 Cor. 5:9-11, The sin of immorality within the church. It is not "love" to allow someone in open and defiant sin to retain membership. Acts 18:4-10, The story of Paul's 18 months of ministry in Corinth. 2 Cor. 2:4 Paul expresses his affliction and anguish of heart when he wrote to them, not to hurt them, but that they might know the love which he had in abundance for them.. Seems to be much like Ellen White not being allowed as a prophet, had to show her 'credentials' so to speak..
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07/04/26 06:52 AM
Lesson OnePaul's Ministry in Corinth Texts to think about for This Week's Study: 1 Cor. 1:1," Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God" Gal. 1:1, "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father , Paul identifies himself as an apostle,-- the title is highly significant. It carries a lot of authority. Only the twelve and Paul are "apostles" in the strict sense of the word. Paul did not walk with Christ, as did the other apostles, during Christ's three and a half year ministry on earth, thus his claim to being an apostle may have been questioned. Yet Paul knows and experienced a direct encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus. He had been taught by God, and he knew God had called and commissioned him as an apostle. Acts 17:16-34, Paul's experience in Athens, and his sermon on "Mars Hill". 1 Cor. 5:9-11, The sin of immorality within the church. It is not "love" to allow someone in open and defiant sin to retain membership. Acts 18:4-10, The story of Paul's 18 months of ministry in Corinth. 2 Cor. 2:4 Paul expresses his affliction and anguish of heart when he wrote to them, not to hurt them, but that they might know the love which he had in abundance for them..
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07/04/26 06:16 AM
The lessons for the third quarter in 2026 focus on Paul's two letters, First and Second Corinthians."In Paul's time, Corinth was famous for its wealth and strong commerce, all thanks to its port, architecture, shipbuilding, and ceramics. The city was an important financial center. Nevertheless, it was also known for its sexual immorality, religious cacophony, and shrines dedicated to various gods. Indeed, daily life in Corinth was marked by flagrant idolatry. This historical-cultural background helps us understand Paul's main concerns regarding the Christians in that city and, consequently, his exhortations to them." There were numerous, and serious, problems in the Corinthian church. Paul's letters are not only excellent theological sources, they are also a great guide on how to deal with these problems, which still plague churches to this day. Divine inspiration enabled Paul to deal with them in the light of the gospel.
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07/03/26 10:53 PM
dedication, I really want to discuss this with you and whoever but I haven't had the time to sit down and get my thoughts together. I have Vespers tonight. Happy Sabbath!
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06/27/26 09:36 AM
Well, take a look at this.. "It is worth remembering that Jesus came out of the grave with a glorified human body, but He was still carrying the marks of His crucifixion (John 20:20, John 20:27). Does this mean that the risen children of God will likewise bear the physical marks of their own sufferings? In the case of the apostle Paul, will he still carry in his glorified body the ?thorn in the flesh? (2 Corinthians 12:7, NKJV) and ?the marks of the Lord Jesus? (Galatians 6:17, NKJV)? Until his death, Paul ?was ever to carry about with him in the body the marks of Christ?s glory, in his eyes, which had been blinded by the heavenly light [see Acts 9:1-9].? ? Ellen G. White, The Story of Redemption, p. 275. But this does not mean that he or any other of the glorified redeemed will be raised with the marks of their own sufferings (compare with 1 Corinthians 15:50-54). In the case of Christ, ?the marks of this cruelty He will ever bear. Every print of the nails will tell the story of man?s wonderful redemption and the dear price by which it was purchased.? ? Ellen G. White, Early Writings, p. 179. His marks are what guarantees us that all of ours will be forever gone." https://ssnet.org/blog/thursday-first-fruits-of-those-who-have-died/
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06/27/26 09:11 AM
So its clear they sought to usurp the authority of God and His Law with their oral traditions and impose their substitute view of the Sabbath and the Law much as we see the reiteration by the church of Rome when it brought and continues to brings its 'tradition' to again usurp God and His Law. Yes, they wanted to have the "dominion" in their own hands. Christ came proclaiming, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand". The authority of God and His Law is to be implanted in hearts and souls in a kingdom motivated by God's love, where people are citizen's of a heavenly dominion. The ruling class could sense their whole official position would no longer be needed! No more need for a high priest, Christ would now be their High Priest, no more sanctuary services with it's sacrifices and multitude of rituals, for Christ was the Passover Lamb, the all sufficient sacrifice. In their day, the priests were the ruling class. They had considerable authority over the people. They were the teachers and instructors of the people. They felt they were the judges of the people, knowing who was in God's favor and who was not. They profited from their corruption turning the needy from their right, and obscuring God's love for the poor. The love of God was concealed from sinners, and men made merchandise of God's grace. What they wanted was a king who would acknowledge and elevate their power, remove the Romans and let them (the priestly, authoritive class) handle the people. They could see that if Christ had His way their whole priestly privileges, position' and authority would be replaced. They havent changed, when the side of our family that is Jewish, goes to the synagogue, the Rabbi just says 'Here is what you have to pay for temple'. No offering or tithe, just payment, and it all is based on how much you make or have, and it can run into the millions for those with money.
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06/27/26 04:07 AM
The video at that last link, showed David Gates flying to a youth meeting, and walking around talking to people -- no sermon. However, one can find numerous sermons by him on the internet -- but they are all more recent not the one referred to in the first post, posted in 2007. I wasn't promoting David Gates, as there are some time setting things he gets caught up in. However, he does have some good material and is quite zealous in giving the "loud cry" that Jesus coming is very near! What else can we find on THE LAODICEAN MESSAGE? This is a recent message by Steven Wohlberg on Revelation 3 -- Light and Love for Laodicean Part One Light and love for Laodiceans Part Two .
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06/27/26 01:18 AM
Interesting title at the head of this thread. I could not find the sermon by David Gates, but the title causes one to think.
The Church of Laodicea, will it die? Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
This is what the Amen says:, Amen means "this is true," "so it shall be," "I agree". For us to say Amen is "affirming the truth of what was said".
But how is "Amen" the name of One Who is speaking? John 14:6 Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life John 18:37 for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth hears my voice.: Jesus is the ultimate truth, His words are truth, He bears witness unto truth. He is the faithful and true witness. He is Creator of all things. The First and the Last
It is He Who says: This Laodicea church is neither cold nor hot, but a nauseating lukewarm that is about to be "spued" out.
So the answer to the first question: The Church of Laodicea, will it die? The answer is yes, if it remains in that condition it will die.
But the message doesn't end in verse 16.
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Jesus loves the Laodicean church! He's not speaking in anger, but in tender hearted appeal. He greatly desires the Laodicean's to repent and come to Him Who can re-created their hearts and lives and fill them with all the good things He has to offer for their salvation and eternal happiness!
So what is the problem with Laodicea from which they need to repent?
Rev. 3:17 They say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and do not know that they art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
This is probably the most deceptive sin a person can find themselves in. They are not active in open sin, they are good church going people. They may even by teachers and hold leadership position within the church. They know Bible verses to defend their doctrines. They know the Bible stories, they know about Jesus. They think they have all they need.
So what is the problem? Are they missing the life giving presence of Jesus in their daily lives. Just like Nicodemus, they must be born again. This includes recognizing our need for the "true gold" of Christ's truth (temporal "gold" they have accumulated may seem to offer security but it won't carry anyone through to Christ's kingdom) , Recognizing our need for Christ's robe of righteousness, realizing that all our righteousness is as fifthly rags is absolutely necessary, we need His robe of righteousness. Recognizing our need for eye salve to see what is of God and what is of human nature.
It means dying to self and no longer placing self's achievements as merits to make us worthy of eternal life. It means recognizing our need to totally depend on Christ, to invite Him into every aspect of our lives, and having a meaningful daily relationship with Him. Christ needs to be our all in all.
Yes, Laodicea needs to die, the self centered spirit of Laodicea needs to die within us -- within our minds and hearts, by inviting Jesus fully into our lives, by throwing open wide the door and inviting Him in. If He is the master of our lives, the Laodicea effect will die, and we will be on fire for Him.
Not only will we walk with Him here, following Him where ever He leads, but will reign with Him in eternity!!!
Jesus has the means to rid us of the Laodicean effect, and He promises to give us what we need, if only we accept Him fully into our lives. Sadly those who are too comfortable in the lukewarm state of Laodicea and resist this loving, tender appeal to open wide the door and invite Him in, will eventually be spued out.
Here is what may be the video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgQ-bQxcqA4
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06/26/26 03:35 PM
This text is usually referred to as character transformation in those who make Christ their Lord and Savior, but I think it also answers the question in the opening post. Bodily and Spiritually we will be like Christ. It hasn't been revealed just what this all entails, but we will be like Him, physically and spiritually! "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is" 1 John 3:2 NKJV
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06/25/26 09:42 PM
Do we think it costs too much to live for Christ and inherit heaven?
"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as you are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, you may be glad also with exceeding joy. (1 Peter 4:12-13) Heaven will be cheap enough, if we obtain it through suffering. We must deny self all along the way, die to self daily, let Jesus alone appear, and keep His glory continually in view.
We tried to call up our greatest trials, but they looked so small compared with the far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory that surrounded us, that we could not speak them out, and we all cried out, "Alleluia! heaven is cheap enough!" and we touched our glorious harps and made heaven's arches ring. {CET 61.1}
Humble your heart before Him and in the simplicity of humble faith, take up your cross and your responsibilities and follow the Pattern given you. Heaven will be cheap enough. The precious immortal life will be given to all who choose the path of humble obedience. {LYL 54.7}
All this humiliation and anguish were endured (by Christ) to bring back the wanderers, guilty and thankless, to the Father's house. O the home of the blest--I cannot afford to lose it! I shall, if saved in the kingdom of God, be constantly discerning new depths in the plan of salvation. All the redeemed saints will see and appreciate as never before the love of the Father and the Son, and songs of praise will burst forth from immortal tongues. He loved us, He gave His life for us. With glorified bodies, with enlarged capacities, with hearts made pure, with lips undefiled, we shall sing the riches of redeeming love. There will be no suffering ones in heaven, no skeptics whom we must labor to convince of the reality of eternal things, no prejudices to uproot, but all will be susceptible to that love which passeth knowledge. Rest, thank God, there is a rest for the people of God, where Jesus will lead the redeemed into green pastures, by the streams of living waters which make glad the city of our God. Then the prayer of Jesus to His Father will be answered: "I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am." {Mar 318.4}
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06/25/26 08:42 PM
John 8:48-50 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that you are a Samaritan, and have a devil? 49 Jesus answered, I do not have a devil; but I honour my Father, and you do dishonour me. 50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeks and judges.
Jesus had spoken as the "true witness" that their demeanor, their murderous intentions, and their grasping for power and position at the expense of truth, were clear signs that they were listening to the father of murder and lying.
As happens so often when people are confronted with their character flaws, they hurl it back on the one who pointed it out. They are filled with anger, shouting, "it's you that is connected with demons, you have a devil, you are like those despised, despicable Samaritans."
Now the Samaritans believed in the books of Moses (Pentateuch) but they rejected the Jewish prophetic and historical books. They claimed to be the true descendants of Israel and saw Jewish teachings as corruptions of the original faith. Hostilities and quarrels over who were the true children of Israel (or children of God) was an ongoing situation. Saying Jesus was a Samaritan was classifying him as one of the Samaritans who insulted Jews and their claims to be the chosen of God.
Jesus did not respond in anger. He wasn't in this dialogue for self vindication. He knew what their end would be because of their rejection of Him. He had come to save them. He was telling them the truth to wake them up from their self absorption. He had come to bring them to the light and life He had come to this world to give them.
He contrasts their ways with what He is doing. Which way honors God, and which way is following the ways of the devil? This isn't about Samaritans, Christ came to save them as well as the Jews. But this does have a lot to do with either following and listening to God, or listening to and following the ways of Satan.
All Christ's ways showed love and compassion as He went about healing the sick, uplifting the discouraged, teaching the ways of God and His kingdom. "I am honouring My Father", He tells them. This is what God the Father is like, and what His sons and daughters become like if they are listening and following Him.
The vicious outburst of the Jews crying out that He had a demon, was a deliberate insult, it was done to dishonor Christ, and thereby dishonoring the Father.
But Christ had not come to judge, His first coming was to bring light and truth to the world. By coming to dwell with us, Jesus came to reveal God to men. He was the Word of God,--God's thought made audible and demonstrated in action.
"I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeks and judges."
Jesus doesn't seek to vindicate or glorify Himself, He commits Himself to the Father. This was the time to call people to God, it was not the time to judge. The time to judge would come later.
All Jesus' words and actions were to show the people the love and character of God the Father. Those who follow and listen to God will have their characters transformed into godly characters.
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06/24/26 03:30 AM
Well, I see that Louis Were, in his book, did address the verses in Daniel 11:25-30. He follows Uriah Smith's idea of throwing those verses back to time before Christ, to parallel Daniel 11:16-20, to once again cover the time of Pagan Rome's rise and conquests including their conquests in Egypt. I do not agree with this "throw back" idea simply to tell more of imperial Rome's battles which have already been covered.
Daniel 11:21-22 deals with Christ's death upon the cross and the overthrow of Jerusalem.
THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISIVE BATTLE Now consider, that the greatest battle for world dominion was won at Calvary! Christ won!!! Satan (though he still is working furiously to win people to his side) may still be winning skirmishes, yet he has lost the decisive battle! He is a defeated foe.
According to Daniel 9:27 The covenant is confirmed, the all important victory has been won by Christ! And Daniel 9:24, Christ has provided everlasting righteousness and given the solution to end sin. REMEMBER THE ROLE OF A DECISIVE BATTLE Remember verses 1 and 2, though Persia still placed more kings on their throne and the Persians continued after the decisive battle in which Xerxes lost against the Greeks around 490 BC; yet the Bible skips those last Persian kings and moves straight into the Greek's conquest. Also when Antiochus III (the Great) lost the battle of Magnesia, in the winter of 190 B.C, the Bible skips the waning powers of the Seleucids and moves straight into the Romans gaining their power over the whole area.
After Christ's Victory, Satan tries to undermine Christ's victory by invading the church in an attempt to destroy true Christianity. Thus the logical interpretation is following the moves that pulled Christianity into the Roman system.
So why now, would we think that after the most decisive battle, the vision takes the reader back to give five more verses detailing skirmishes between heathen Rome and heathen Egypt, which took place before Christ and before Jerusalem's fall ?
No! Now the vision moves into Rome taking over Christ's Church.
In verse 23 we see the league made between Imperial Rome and the Christian Church. We see the rise in political power of the papacy, (which was very different than the rise of other political powers) in verse 24. And "he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time". Yes, the papacy influenced political parties to get rid of the "strongholds" that stood in the way -- in 508 the papacy had Clovis the Frank to fight "strongholds" (like the Visigoths) for them. Also, during this time the three horns were uprooted. Charlemagne began to reign in 768 and was crowned emperor in 780 by pope Leo III. The Holy Roman Emperor received the imperial regalia from the hands of the Pope, symbolizing both the pope's right to crown Christian sovereigns and also the emperor's role as protector of the Catholic Church
Verses 25-30 shows political conquests called against the king of the south, 1095-1295 AD . .
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06/24/26 12:37 AM
Interesting title at the head of this thread. I could not find the sermon by David Gates, but the title causes one to think.
The Church of Laodicea, will it die? Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
This is what the Amen says:, Amen means "this is true," "so it shall be," "I agree". For us to say Amen is "affirming the truth of what was said".
But how is "Amen" the name of One Who is speaking? John 14:6 Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life John 18:37 for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth hears my voice.: Jesus is the ultimate truth, His words are truth, He bears witness unto truth. He is the faithful and true witness. He is Creator of all things. The First and the Last
It is He Who says: This Laodicea church is neither cold nor hot, but a nauseating lukewarm that is about to be "spued" out.
So the answer to the first question: The Church of Laodicea, will it die? The answer is yes, if it remains in that condition it will die.
But the message doesn't end in verse 16.
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Jesus loves the Laodicean church! He's not speaking in anger, but in tender hearted appeal. He greatly desires the Laodicean's to repent and come to Him Who can re-created their hearts and lives and fill them with all the good things He has to offer for their salvation and eternal happiness!
So what is the problem with Laodicea from which they need to repent?
Rev. 3:17 They say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and do not know that they art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
This is probably the most deceptive sin a person can find themselves in. They are not active in open sin, they are good church going people. They may even by teachers and hold leadership position within the church. They know Bible verses to defend their doctrines. They know the Bible stories, they know about Jesus. They think they have all they need.
So what is the problem? Are they missing the life giving presence of Jesus in their daily lives. Just like Nicodemus, they must be born again. This includes recognizing our need for the "true gold" of Christ's truth (temporal "gold" they have accumulated may seem to offer security but it won't carry anyone through to Christ's kingdom) , Recognizing our need for Christ's robe of righteousness, realizing that all our righteousness is as fifthly rags is absolutely necessary, we need His robe of righteousness. Recognizing our need for eye salve to see what is of God and what is of human nature.
It means dying to self and no longer placing self's achievements as merits to make us worthy of eternal life. It means recognizing our need to totally depend on Christ, to invite Him into every aspect of our lives, and having a meaningful daily relationship with Him. Christ needs to be our all in all.
Yes, Laodicea needs to die, the self centered spirit of Laodicea needs to die within us -- within our minds and hearts, by inviting Jesus fully into our lives, by throwing open wide the door and inviting Him in. If He is the master of our lives, the Laodicea effect will die, and we will be on fire for Him.
Not only will we walk with Him here, following Him where ever He leads, but will reign with Him in eternity!!!
Jesus has the means to rid us of the Laodicean effect, and He promises to give us what we need, if only we accept Him fully into our lives. Sadly those who are too comfortable in the lukewarm state of Laodicea and resist this loving, tender appeal to open wide the door and invite Him in, will eventually be spued out.
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06/21/26 06:55 PM
Lesson Thirteen Into Eternity"This week, let?s learn about the reward of heaven (Matt. 5:12, Rev. 22:12), what heaven will be like; and ultimately, how incredible it will be to finally be with One who created us, loved us unto death, has redeemed us from our sin, and is coming back soon. We need to just hold on in faith until then." Memory Text: ?Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is? (1 John 3:2, NKJV).Study for This Week?s Study: Psalm 80, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that...dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth...stir up Your strength, and come and save us...cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved....(we have suffered much)...cause thy face to shine; we shall be saved. O God of hosts: look down from heaven, and behold, and visit this vine; ...And the vineyard which thy right hand hath planted, and the branch that you made strong for thyself. Thess. 4:17, (When Jesus comes again) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (who were raised from the dead) up into the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Rev. 21:2, 9-26, John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. .. And the structure of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. Isa. 25:8, He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. Rev. 7:16-17 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Rev. 21:23-25 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof. 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which recognizes the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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06/21/26 06:25 PM
Some New Testament commands from Jesus:
Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
A man asked Jesus about divorce Mark10:6-9 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Luke 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Matthew 4:10 Then said Jesus Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 4:19 And he said to them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad. Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:24 first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Matthew 5:25-26 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art in the way with him;
Matthew 5:34-37 I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God?s throne:... But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Matthew 5:39-41 Resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. (41) And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Matthew 5:42 Give to him that asks, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you.
Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.'
Matt. 6:19-20 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven,
Matthew 6:32-33 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
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06/21/26 05:54 PM
It's not Louis Were's identification of the king of the North with which I have issues. I fully agree with him on that point.
However, I disagree with his premise that when the Roman papal power takes his seat we should drop the geopolitical literal reality of the king of the north and now switch to interpreting these powers as a "spiritual" identity. That is the premise Loius Were gives to support his move away from a geopolitical literal interpretation into progressively (as he goes to the later verses in the chapter) giving the verses symbolic spiritual interpretations.
Of course the spiritual-religious meaning is very much part of the message in this vision, and yes, papal Rome exerts a powerful religious influence, yet that power isn't just spiritual it is political. There are literal connections in these texts. It is Rome's political connections that gives it it's power. Thus her religious power does not mean that we should drop the geopolitical literal side which was set as the precedent in the first half of the chapter, and which gives the prophecy a time and a place?
Now considering Daniel's texts between Christ's death (in Daniel 11:22), and the events of 11:40-45, may change our thinking.
In Chapter eight in Were's book, he shows that it is the Roman papal power, not the French Revolution, that fulfills Daniel 11:36-40. He gives an excellent comparison chart showing the power in those verses is the same as the horn power in chapter 7 and 8 of Daniel and the beast power of Rev. 13, 14, 17,18, and 2 Thess, 2:4. And yes, the Roman power and influence is affecting the whole world as we near the last crises. But it is still a geopolitical power as well as a religious power.
There is no question in my mind as to who is the king of the north. It is the Roman papal power with her supporting "kings".
But then Louis Were does place the French Revolution in Daniel 11:40 -- he points the reader to 11:40 and explains the one who "pushed" against the authority of the papacy stems from the French Revolution.
Now the question is -- who is the king of the south?
But let's go back again to earlier texts before we reach verse 40. In Daniel 11:23 Pagan Rome makes a league with Christianity, gives the bishop of Rome considerable privileges, and the process of developing the papacy is set in motion. We usually see this beginning to happen in 313 AD. In verse 11:24 we see the Roman papal power gaining strength in a way different from other powers.
Then in following verses 11:25-29 we see conflicts between the king of the north and south. Pagan Rome never mounted such an invasion on the king of the south after Christ established the Christian church. BUT Papal Rome encouraged several such campaigns against Islam which now controlled all the lands of the king of the South plus Palestine and up into Syria. A whole new religious-political power (claiming to believe Biblical as well as a (for them) recent prophet as their religious authorities) had sprung up in Arabia and spread across the coast of Northern Africa and up into the land of Palestine. A second geopolitical religious power in the land of the king of the south.
And yes, the king of the north mounted huge armies sent to regain Palestine from the Islamic forces. I didn't see Were addressing those verses, yet they describe the rise of the king of the south and the war between the king of the north and south soon following the establishment of the papacy in the seat of Rome.
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06/21/26 04:33 AM
Louis Were was very strong on the king of the North representing the Roman Papal System. I fully agree with him on that point. As the king of the north does the same work as the Papacy there can be but one conclusion, namely that the king of the north refers to to the Papacy.... Condemning the view that Turkey was the power referred to in Daniel 11:40-45, James White wrote an editorial in the Review and Herald Nov. 29, 1877. He said: 'let us take a brief view of the line of prophecy four times spanned in the book of Daniel....Babylon, Media Persia, Greece and Rome...IF the legs of iron and the feet of iron and clay in the second chapter represent Rome, and IF the nondescript, ten horned beast and the little horn of seventh chapter represent Rome, and IF the little horn which waxed exceeding great of the eighth chapter represents Rome, then the King of the North represents Rome also. Page10-11 To me that makes sense -- the king of the north all through Daniel 2,7,8 ended as Rome, it was recognized as Rome in the earlier verses in Daniel 11. This is not spiritualizing, this is a literal transition of Roman power. Politicized Christian Rome emerged within imperial Rome, as we see in Daniel 7, as the stout horn grows upon the head of the Roman beast. The Bishop of Rome, later known as the Pope, gained prominence due to the city's historical and spiritual significance and the growing influence of Christianity as the empire's official religion. Papal Rome is not just a church, it is a political power. Daniel 2 shows that the Roman iron takes us right to the end even though it's mixed and held together with "kings". See Why the Papacy is the Ultimate Living Link to Ancient Rome
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06/20/26 10:11 PM
The conversation continues in which the Jewish leadership has basically challenged Jesus asking, "who do you think you are?" Jesus knew well His heavenly origin. He knew the God in heaven was His Father. He knew His mission to earth was to offer eternal life and salvation to these very people (and all other people on earth).
He knew that He was "the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was the one who was in the beginning with God. And that all things were made by him. He, the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-3,14)
To refuse to believe in Him would forever separate them from God, and forfeit the life and eternal destiny He had come to give them. What more could He do to save them?
John 8:43-47 Why do you not understand my speech? It is because you cannot hear my word. 8:44 for you are of [listening to] your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 8:45 And yet [here I Am] and I am telling [you] the truth, but you refuse to believe it. 8:46 You cannot convict Me of any sin. And yet, if I say the truth, why do you refuse to believe me? 8:47 He that is of God hears God's words: yet you therefore do not hear them, because you are not of God.
Jesus implored the crowds to believe in Him so that "He who has ears to hear? (Matthew 13:9) can hear and believe". If we are unable to understand the things of God or hear his voice, God is not the problem. The problem lies within our hearts. Who do we choose to listen to?
Eve chose to listen to, and believe words of the serpent. Yet that serpent was lying to her. God had told her the truth, yet so many (like those in leadership in Jesus day) still listen to the serpent and think he is offering them something better -- more immediate, temporal, prestige or position or whatever -- than the God of love Who is offering them eternal life!
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06/19/26 08:17 PM
"promotions for museums and concerts"
Sounds like conditioning for everyone gets a government allotment, owns nothing, and will be happy. Like the old saying, 'keep em happy and fat' then easily to control..
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06/19/26 07:33 PM
Yes it was him and that's the book I'm referring to.
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06/19/26 06:06 AM
Hi Daylily, Louis Were was quite an interesting and enthusiastic writer, especially on end time subjects. I have at least twelve of his books. I think the book you are referring to is: "The King of the North at Jerusalem" is that correct? If I remember correctly it was L.Were who brought the symbolic interpretation of Daniel 11:40-45 into the Adventist Church.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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