A Bible Study on Vegetarianism

Greetings Brethren and Sisters,

Per Daryl's request to post the study on vegetarianism, I will begin today. And I fully realize that you may have questions before the study is completely finished posting. Therefore I will ask each one of you to be patient with gaining a response from myself until the study is finished.

Study: Dietary History

If you have ever shopped for a new vehicle I am sure that you have noticed that they are all given a new owner’s manual. And it is in this manual that we will learn what is best for this particular vehicle.

Likewise, our God has provided a manual for us to learn from, and to guide us into a good way, and this manual is called the Holy Bible.

Turning now to Genesis 1:20 we can read the first diet that mankind was given: “And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.”

God called this good (ref. Gen. 1:31). And there was one tree in the garden which mankind could not eat freely from (ref. Gen 2:16), the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But when man took and ate from the tree of knowledge there was a change in his diet plan. Now mankind would be living on earth with thorns and thistles and was given the herb of the field to eat (ref. Gen 3:18). And the reason God provided the herb of the field to be included was for the service of man (Psalm 104:14). And today we find that many of the herbs of the fields have wonderful healing properties.

Pre-flood life span:

• Adam - 930 yrs
• Seth - 912 yrs
• Enos - 905 yrs
• Cainan - 910 yrs
• Mahalaleel – 895 yrs
• Jared - 962 yrs
• Enoch - 365 yrs (& went to heaven)
• Methuselah – 969 yrs
• Lameth – 777 yrs
• Noah - 950 yrs

Post-flood life span:

• Shem – 600 yrs
• Arphaxad – 438 yrs
• Salah - 433 yrs
• Eber - 464 yrs
• Peleg - 239 yrs
• Reu - 239 yrs
• Serug - 230 yrs
• Nahor - 148 yrs
• Terah - 205 yrs
• Abram - 174 yrs

During the pre-flood era mankind lived an average of 912 yrs. After the flood mankind lived only an average 317 yrs of age in only 10 generations.

So what was the result of the shorter life span?
Let us look at Genesis 9:4-6 “Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”

In the new diet flesh was given and as a result life spans reduced greatly. But God placed a restriction for mankind not to eat the blood. In our modern society we are probably more familiar with the term kosher, which basically means to eat certain flesh without blood or fat. And it is important to note that God has never given permission to eat blood and if one does the penalty is death.

After the flood we learn about the next dietary change. This is where we should pay closer attention to the events and the murmurings. And especially how God responds to their murmurings, as God truly knows their hearts even if their mouths do not say all.

In Exodus 20:1-17 we read how God gave the Ten Commandments. And we may recall how the Israelites where experiencing the daily manna from heaven. But I would like to draw your mind to the line of events.

1. In Exodus 16:12 They murmured with explanations of the flesh pots and eating bread till they were full so God tells them He will provide them with flesh in the evening, but in the morning they will have enough bread to eat. Why did God provide quail this time? Acts 17:30 “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:” God provided quail because the Israelites were ignorant of God’s commands.
2. In Exodus 6:15 We read how God provided manna in the morning as He had spoken.
3. It has been about a year since the Israelites have been learning about God’s commands.
4. Now they are on their way to Canaan when they began to murmur, again. The near year stop over in Mt Sinai was adequate time for them to become very familiar with God’s education for them. But they spoke about how they remembered the fish, and all sorts of things along with it, but upon reading Numbers 11:18-20 you learn how God reads their hearts and clearly understood that they were lusting after the flesh to eat.
1. What was the result of their murmurings
2. God heard them
3. God knew their hearts lusted after flesh to eat
4. God gave them their desires/flesh, not for a day but an entire month
5. God provided the flesh with a plague
6. The plague killed so many that it was called Kibrothhattaavah, which means “graves of lust”
7. For 40 yrs the Israelites remained just outside of the Promised Land. And during this time our God provided them manna.

-to be continued

-continued
What is the difference between the first time they received flesh and this time? They were no longer ignorant to God’s commands.

The Israelites truly lusted after the flesh as if you read in Numbers 11:32 you will see that they stayed up all that day, all that night, and all the next day gathering what they wanted.

[-to be continued]

Are you suggesting based on your interpretation of what the Bible contains, that eating meat is a sin?
God Bless & Happy Sabbath,
Will

We definitely will not be eating any type of flesh food in heaven as well as on the New Earth.

That is correct. Killing anything will not even come to mind.
I am talking about here on earth today 2007. I understand many people believe that eating meat is a sin, they will skirt around and use some other reference, but the idea is that it is a sin to eat meat.
This is what I want to get to, is that is what is being promoted through this study?
God Bless & Happy Sabbath,
Will

I am not sure where Cheri is going with her study, Will, but for my "two cents" worth, I do believe that meat eating is a sin, for Seventh Day Adventists who have read the counsel we have been so graciously given.



Will, if it is not sin to eat meat, why would it be called an "evil example" for the ministers to eat meat themselves?

Here is another excellent quote:



How can Adventists, after reading such quotes as these, think that to continue eating meat is not a sin?

-continued

So what is lust? Romans 7:7 “What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.”

According to the law to lust is to covet.

• Psalm 78:17-32
  “And they sinned yet more against him by provoking the most High in the wilderness. And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust. Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness? Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people? Therefore the LORD heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel; Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation: Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven, And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven. Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full. He caused an east wind to blow in the heaven: and by his power he brought in the south wind. He rained flesh also upon them as dust, and feathered fowls like as the sand of the sea: And he let it fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations. So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire; They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat was yet in their mouths, The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel. For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.”

As you can read, God gave them what they wanted but it had consequences, a plague which killed those that lusted.

1. “they sinned yet more against him by provoking the most High in the wilderness”
2. ”they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust”
3. Although God continually gave them they questioned God
4. ”the LORD heard this”
5. ”and was wroth”
6. ”so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel”

Why?

1. “Because they believed not in God”
2. ”and trusted not in his salvation”

Although God provided their need, they wanted more than what God provided!
What happened next?

1. “He caused an east wind to blow in the heaven”
2. ”He rained flesh also upon them as dust, and feathered fowls like as the sand of the sea”
3. ”he let it fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations”
4. ”So they did eat”
5. ”and were well filled”
6. ”for he gave them their own desire”

What are we taught about their own desire?

• “They were not estranged from their lust.”

What were the consequences not being estranged from their lust?

1. “while their meat was yet in their mouths”
2. ”The wrath of God came upon them”
3. ”and slew the fattest of them”
4. ”and smote down the chosen men of Israel”

Why did God send a plague to the chosen men of Israel?

• ”For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.”

So do you remember what happened when they arrived at Canaan? Can you believe this, they still wanted flesh to eat!

• Deuteronomy 12:20,21 “When the LORD thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after. If the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after.”

And yet again because they wanted something greater than the ways of the Lord, He gave them their request, but it was consequences.

• Psalm 106:14,15 “But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert. And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul.”

Leanness/Strong’s number 07332/noun
Definition: leanness, scantness, wasting

1. leanness
2. wasting (of disease)
3. scantness (of measure)
• scantness:noun~the quality of being meager

Yes, they received leanness. And it is so sad they chose something more than God was providing them because their choice provided the consequences of leanness to their soul. Which means their souls were given the quality of being deficient or inadequate.

Though there were conditions to their flesh eating (ref. Lev 3:17;Duet 12:23-25):

• no blood
• no fat
• nothing unclean (Lev 11 & Deut 14

Today is there anything telling us we should not follow in the examples of the Israelites?

• 1 Corinthians 10:1-12
  “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”

Sum Up

• But with many of them God was not well pleased
• they were overthrown in the wilderness
• Now these things were our examples
• the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted

Yes, all the things which happened are for an example that we might learn.

-to be continued

It is no wonder that the world is so far ahead of us, as a church, when it comes to health. .

I agree Cheri, "meat eating" and "lust" are connected together.

If eating meat is a sin, does that mean that Jesus sinned?

So is every unhealthy activity a sin?

Here is something for you all to chew on:

Exo 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Exo 12:9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
Exo 12:10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
Exo 12:11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.


Num 9:8 And Moses said unto them, Stand still, and I will hear what the LORD will command concerning you.
Num 9:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 9:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD.
Num 9:11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.
Num 9:12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.
Num 9:13 But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the LORD in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.
Num 9:14 And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.

Maybe this time someone will have something to say to this command.

So, quite contrary to what Cheri aluded to in her previous post saying: "So do you remember what happened when they arrived at Canaan? Can you believe this, they still wanted flesh to eat!" they would have sinned in persisting as vegetarians and would have been killed outside in the wilderness for rebellion if they had refused to eat the flesh of the lamb.

But I agree that it would be sin for Cheri and Tammy to eat meat for Paul wrote:

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Cheri pointed out the sin of Israel in the desert. It was not eating birds, but

"Why?

1. “Because they believed not in God”
2. ”and trusted not in his salvation”
"

-continued

Why is our Savior still in heaven today?

• Acts 3:19-21 “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

What does it say?

1. Repent
2. Be converted, so your sins may be blotted out so we may receive the Holy Spirit
3. Christ is in heaven waiting
4. for the times of restitution of all things

Truly our Lord is calling us to be prepared to live in heaven today as He has said in Matthew 16:19 “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Yes, what we do here on earth is what we will be doing in heaven.

Will there be sin? Will there be lust? Will there be coveting? Will there examples of killing? Will we kill for our taste buds? Will we kill for our needs? No.

God is calling us to restore His good ways.

• Jeremiah 6:16 “Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.”

Today we are being called to be Christ’s representatives in all that we do, for we are to be the examples of the believers (1 Tim 4:12).

• 2 Corinthians 5:20 “Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.”

And what do we know about being a faithful representative?

• Proverbs 13:17 A wicked messenger falleth into mischief: but a faithful ambassador is health.”

In closing, I am brought back to recall how I would spend days preparing my home for special company. I attended to every last detail which I could think of. Is this not what we should be doing for the bodies which God has loaned us, for are not our bodies His property?

• 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17 “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”
• 1 Corinthians 6:19,20 “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.”

Daily some may experience much unrest in health. Truly sickness is not rest to our souls. But our God has promised us rest for our souls.

And how do we find rest?

• Jeremiah 6:16 “Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls….”
• Matthew 11:28, 29 “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.”

God wants us healthy! 3 John 1:2 “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” He does not want our souls to have leanness, but wants to bless us.

• Exodus 15:26 “And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.”

It took time for me to have faith in the last verse, but truly when we do God’s will He presents us prosperity with health. Don’t you find it odd that a Christian would have doubts? You see, God is taking the time to education us in His school of heavenly living. He has provided even our faith so long as we are willing to lay down everything and to follow His principles because we love Him. Truly our Creator knew something about our magnificent machinery when He created us, shouldn’t we trust the owner’s manual and its author? It is something to consider isn’t it?

With love,
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

God is not a minister of sin. He doesn't say that it's Ok to eat meat then tell you that it's a sin after people have been eating it.
I don't find any thing evil or sinful about eating meat, and I still didn't get my question answered.
Is the purpose of this "study" to tell us that eating meat is a sin.
Yes or no.
WIll

I gather that is the gist of the study "Jesus is still in heaven cause people are eating meat"
What a joke.. I don't eat meat, but this is over the top. Shall we grow beards, keep the feast days cause Christ isn't hear yet.
Unbelieveable, unbiblical, and clearly hypocritical. THis is what is called a lie, vegetariansim taugt to be the way to holiness, yet Christ ate meat... Oh boy.. what next?

Also keep in mind that God used Daniel extensively, and this man ate and drank wine. Or was it not flesh food he ate? Again God is not a God of confusion.
The real health message is to be healthy, so we can go and tell others about Christ's soon return, not "Eat only broccoli so you can go to heaven". We cannot do that if we are always getting sick, which by the way getting sick is not a sin, its a result of sin in the world. Something to think about.
WIll

God has given further direction for His people in these last days. Not only is dead flesh to be avoided, but cheese, milk and eggs will be discarded. I agree with Sister Roesch, consumption of flesh and animal products increases lust and jeopardizes self-control. Any intemperance or indulgence of appetite has this effect. Paradise can be lost through appetite, as Adam and Eve discovered and even Esau over his lentil stew.

Those who indulge appetite are often apparent by their combative spirit, quick to speak, quick to wrath, eager for a fight or to defend self. The works of the flesh are manifest, but the fruits of the Spirit are wanting.

Through Ellen White, God has repeatedly warned His people to avoid consuming dead flesh, most especially those who minister in the Word. There is no room for doubt in these numerous and strong statements. It will be called legalism by those who doubt God's care for His children.

We are not responsible for fulfilling the Old Testament practices, but the Day of Atonement in antitype. The Adventist movement was raised for this very purpose, to proclaim the Day of Atonement and the mediation of Christ before God in the heavenly sanctuary, to remove our sins from the ledger before probation closes. This is the purpose of the three angels message, of which Health Reform is the right arm.

As Thomas indicates above, sin is not believing in God, not trusting Him to save us from our depraved appetites. (The lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life - 1 John 2:16) Ellen White makes the distinction that both physical and moral decay result from flesh eating. Many of us are ready to doubt this advice and throw contempt upon the prophet of God's own choosing. Ellen White is dead and unaffected by the ridicule, but Jehovah registers every slight made against the messengers of His appointment. We are all responsible for our influence. I write this not for those who desire a battle, but for some who may be unsure of God's instruction for these last days.

"Wherefore if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend." 1 Corinthians 8:13.

Gordon

Looks like we have some major issues here:
#1

On another forum people are talking about whether the duck is a clean or unclean creature, so they ate duck and deer. Would any of you eat meat in this situation? Or would you injure your body, which by the way would be violating the health laws, which is like breaking one of the 10 commandments.
A paradox don't you think, at least for those who believe eating meat is a sin?



#2


We all know oysters are not clean.

How do you respond to the obvious consumption of flesh done by Sister White when she was alive?

It's not like its a lie, or to be hidden, but what do you tell people, while telling them that eating meat is a sin.

We have 2 instances where God used people while living in sin?! MM is going to fall out of his rocking chair on this one.
Any thoughts? We can lay to rest any attempts at making the above information at Daniel & Ellen White's meat eating to be fabricated or anything else..So please do indulgeus, at least me.
I am always willing to learn,but not at the cost of Fear Uncertainty and Doubt imposed by the presenters.

Glad you aren't referring to me Gordon, cause I don't eat meat.
Oh by the way are you aware that Hitler was a vegetarian?
WIll

Gordon,
Adam and Eve lost paradise through disobedience. You missed the whole point, of why we are in this mess to begin with, it wasn't because they ate something. It was because they disobeyed God.
Will

Greetings,

This evening, I am not sure what to say to some of you..., except that I presented the Bible Study according to the scriptures that I know. And my heart aches when so many call themselves Adventists and do not accept our prophet's testimony for what the Lord wants.

The joy of the Lord is for us as a people to be prepared to live in heaven today. To be examples of the believer.

With regards to comparing the Passover lamb and lusting...My heart sinks yet more:(.

"So is every unhealthy activity a sin?" All that I can say is that God teaches us to know as His people what is right and what is wrong. That in order for us to know right from wrong, we have to study, pray and ask for the Holy Spirit to teach us all truth, and this must be done with a contrite heart. For the heart that is unwilling to be broken on the Rock, just will not be broken. It must not be me calling sin sin, it will have to be us opening up our Bibles and search, search, comparing and searching and praying for the Holy Spirit to convict your heart. What is conviction? It is being planted in the foundation of Christ and that Rock cannot be moved.

This I do believe, that God provided people food in the wilderness and while they were without understanding of His commands, He provided their request. But afterward when they learned what God wanted them to do and how to live; so when they asked for flesh with education our Lord called it lust. Whether or not you choose to believe what happened in the recorded Holy Scriptures, you will have to pray, study and ask for the Holy Spirit.

Please understand I am not seeking for you to change your minds, but I was asked to share and I did.

The purpose of this study was share, and for each of you to pray, study and ask for the Holy Spirit.

With Christian Love,
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

No one here is denying what Ellen White wrote Cheri. Who is denying it.
How do you respond to others the quotes I found at the white estate website where Ellen White ate meat?
Its obvious its not healthy for you to be eating it today, so I want to know your thoughts on this, or are you not able or willing to answer questions asked, after all that does happen in a Bible study.
It may serve to keep your sword sharp.
WIll

The unfolding of truth is progressive, therefore, it may be important to look at the timeline in relation to those quotes.

She was 46 years old when she ate duck and deer, 52 when she ate oysters which is an unclean thing, and that is around 3,500 years old since God said that.
Its a fact.


An oyster falls into that category.

Anyways you all know very well exactly what I am saying. Now what do you do with the above.
Where do you go from there.
How do you respond to someone who shows you this truth, which it is.
God Bless,
Will

Cheri

Thanks for sharing your scripture study on vegetarianism.

Will, I don't recall reading any where that Daniel ate flesh or drank wine. Could you give a text for your statement?

Cheri, here are a few words form Minsitry of Healing that I think go along with your study.

Hi Crater,
You can find this in Daniel 10. I was not aware of this, and was surprised to find that, so I take it as it reads:


God Bless,
Will

Thanks Will,

The text is an intersting one.

I don't have a SDA Commentary.
The ones on line that I checked didn't have much to say of the text. A couple inticated it meant a time of fasting.

I did find in Prophets and Kings that "at the very outset of their career there came to them a decisive test of character".

Latter refering to about the period of Daniel 10: 2-3 Ellens says that "The same characteristics marked his afterlife". It seems odd that he would change his life style at old age.

I think he fasted as well. There was a time of mourning that occurred as mentioned in verse 2, and the result was that he fasted from eating pleasant bread,flesh meat and drinking wine for 3 weeks.
He wasn't a glutton by any means, he abstained from eating meat and drinking wine for 3 weeks, and this tells me he did so prior to his fast, and he would return to eating pleasant bread, flesh meat, and drinking wine after his fast.
God Bless,
Will

Good Morning, Redfrog,
I think your question is excellent! Yes, I believe if we KNOW that something is unhealthy, and if we continue to do it, that we are sinning. Makes me think of this Bible verse:



Surely, if we are sinning because we don't do so something that we know we should do, the opposite must be true also when we do do things we know are wrong to do.

Gordon, not trying to throw contempt on Ellen, only noticing that as it often is, those who claim to be her best friends in reality end up making her look bad. People quote a little here, a little there, and wonder why others take issue with it, when they could quote the whole thing and many would be content with it.

Cheri, what can I say. You presented some texts that you know, and others presented some texts that they know. As I see it, the only testimony that has been clearly rejected this far in this thread is yours. So are you the prophet mentioned above?Well, with regards to equating lusting with meat eating...
The thread is after all called "a bible study on vegetarianism", and the topic has been on eating of meat, even though you at times have thinly veiled it under true sinns, such as coveting. If coveting is what you truly were refering to in that post, then I admit comparing it to the passover lamb was wrong. But then you must admit that it is equally sinfull to covet carrots or apples or peas as it is to covet birds as did Israel in the desert. If you do not admit this, then your point is just what it looked like, an argument not against coveting as such but as against coveting meat specifically. And then comparing it with the passover lamb is quite justified, IMHO.

In chapter 10, we are told of Daniel having great sorrow and therefore having a fast. It reads:

Dan 10:2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
Dan 10:3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

It would seem that Daniel could not fast through not eating flesh or drinking wine for these three weeks if his custom since his early youth was to not eat these things.

Greetings Will,

Considering that Daniel was a man of God's principles, and of reading this verse, I can in no wise consider that Daniel was eating animal flesh prior to this, as it does not even allude to that.

But what I do see is that this is yet another testimony from his youth, that he did not eat animal flesh nor drink alcohol.

Consider this, we in our state of sinful characteristic's often come into reading God's word with our own understanding. But there is something that God tells us about our opinion, our character and how we are to reason:

1. Our opinion: Proverbs 3:4-8 "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones."
2. Our character: Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."
3. How to reason/learn: Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
   John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come."

I do not know if this at all helps you, but my prayers are that it may.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

Sorry Will, but I don't believe it is a "joke"...God's professed people continueing to eat meat is only ONE reason why Jesus has not come back:



After all, we are told

Greetings Thomas,
Your question:Truly, I had never thought someone would consider that I call myself a prophet, but truly I had only regarded that an Adventist knows that I would be speaking of the prophet Mrs. White.

So I ask of you to please forgive my communications failure and that my assumption that you and others would understand that I was only referring to Mrs. White.
Your comment:

Yes, to covet is to sin, but Thomas I suggest that you re-read the study because the scriptures testify that God called their desires to eat flesh the sin, it was not I. Remember God read their hearts and Moses & others recorded the history. These things I cannot change.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

Will, the key to this one is this:

They were in the mountains, with little food to eat, it was not wrong to eat clean meat when there is nothing else to eat. But it is wrong to use this as an excuse for Adventists to hang on to eating meat today. I know of NO ONE (I'm not saying there isn't someone, somewhere,) who eats meat, cause they have NOTHING else to eat. I think it is pretty sad when people use this as an excuse to continue eating meat.

Will, I couldn't disagree with you more - God does not use people while they are living in known sin. It was not sin for the Whites to eat the meat in Colorado - there was nothing else to eat. As I said before, I think it pretty sad to use this as an excuse for Adventists to hang on to their dead flesh today.

As to the oysters:




She says:



Either she is telling the truth, or she is a hypocrite and a liar, it can't be both. I choose to believe that she was telling the truth. There is more than one way to do away with the Spirit of Prophecy, and this is one of the most effective ways, to believe that the Prophet was a hypocrite...

Or her life and practice is an example of how what she said should be understood.

Thank you for sharing your opinion Tammy.
God Bless,
Will

I'm thankful you are thankful, Will. I believe we are so close to the end, and Satan is working as hard as he can to get people to lose faith, anyway he can, in the writings of Ellen White. I don't know about you, but when I read something someone has written and think it is wonderful, and then later, I meet that person in person, and find out that they are living a hypocritical life - well, I won't read their writings anymore. That is what Satan wants people to do with the Spirit of Prophecy. He has different tactics to get people to do that, but the end result is always the same, to lose faith in the Spirit of Prophecy.

I pray that we can all benefit from this conversation, and that our faith in the Spirit of Prophecy will only grow stronger as we meet the attacks of Satan.

Have a good day!
Tammy

Hello Crater,
You're welcome and thank you for your thoughtfulness.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

I have come to the conclusion in my own thoughts that flesh food should be considered a survival food. Eg. after the flood there was little else available. This seems to perhaps have been the case when; "Willie shot a duck which came in a time of need, for our supplies were rapidly diminishing."

Do we sometimes tend to look at people living in an earlier time in the light of the knowledge we have now? "We all know oysters are not clean."

From the White Estate comes Chapter 27 Health Principles/4
Principles and Policies.
Where I found this quote regards to oysters. It brings to my mind, Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at;"



This same article suggests how Ellen applied and we may apply the Principles that she had been given in regard to appetite, flesh foods, and health reform.

I just have to share an observation regarding, Cheri's Scripture Study on Vegetarianism. Before she was finished sharing, it seemed to me that there were people that seemed to want to put words in her mouth and say where she was going with the subject before she was even finished. Is that the norm on the MSDAOL forum?

Hello Crater,

Thank you for the information you have provided. It was enjoyable and educational reading.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

I agree Tammy. Time is running out, not running out in the cliche' sense of the word, but things are ramping up so quickly that its almost surreal.
I know my faith has and is attacked on a daily basis, things from not getting spiritually fed at church, the lack of fellowship (we went visiting a new church on Sabbath, so this is my experience), the discouragement from the laziness in people not wanting to do anything at all really, and loads more.
God Bless,
Will

Crater,
That would be me. I had a strange feeling that's exactly where she was going (which I was right), and it is not the norm for MSDAOL,nor is it a bad thing either.
A study welcomes questions, ever have a Bible study with someone and they ask you questions throughout or is it a monologue?
God Bless,
Will

Cheri,
I can't believe or accept your position that Daniel ate no flesh meat or drank wine.
He was brought up knowing temperance, meaning "don't be a glutton". Temperance means :


Temperance does not mean vegetarianism, and that's Ok. I expected you to go through such a route to try and say what the Bible clearly does not say, and that's fine. You are entitled to believe what you choose to. Its part of our freedom (while we still have it).
God Bless,
Will

There seems to be disagreement on whether or not Daniel drank wine and ate flesh food, therefore, I am doing a EGW quotes search using the search words Daniel wine.

This is the first one I came to:


Does the last sentence mean that this was their diet from this time onward?

In seeking to answer my own question, I came across the following quote:


The coloured portion would imply a definite period of time in which they abstained from wine and flesh food.

In my words search I came across this interesting quote:


How does this quote fit into this overall study?

I also came across the following EGW quote relevant to this study:


The above EGW quote states that intemperance is a sin.

Can anybody explain in what way intemperance is a sin?

When you point out that intemperance is a sin in a thread about vegetarian food, one would be tempted to think that you view being a vegetarian as being temperate. Is this true?

Not really, as you can be an intemperate vegetarian.

So the relevance of that quote to this topic is?

Greetings Will,

This evening you provided us with a definition of the word temperance.So let us enter into the Holy Scriptures to look up the word temperance.

• For your reference: Acts 24:25; Galatians 5:23; 2 Peter 1:6.

The Strong's number for temperance is: 1466

1. The definition is:
• 1) self-control (the virtue of one who masters his desires and passions, esp. his sensual appetites)

True temperance teaches us to dispense entirely with everything that is harmful and not good for our body temples. So let us also to look to the writings of Mrs. White too.Tammy Rosche's Quote:
Will I do not recall that I said vegetarianism means temperance. But I do believe vegetarianism is included into the act temperance, especially for our last days.

And I am completely preplexed at your statement "I expected you to go through such a route to try and say what the Bible clearly does not say..." All I can say is that I have studied and prayed and asked God for His education. And that I am really sorry to have caused you such thoughts for it was never my intent.

Your Sister in Christ,
Cheri

Cheri,
I have to run shortly. Do you believe Daniel ate meat or no? Its very quick and simple. I will post the verses again.


No one fasts from something they do not do, I am not on a cigarette fast, cause I don't smoke, it's redundant. Daniel ate bread and he fasted from that as well.
The Holy Scriptures testify that he ate meat and bread. Do you agree or no?
God Bless,
Will

Mornin' Will,

I have been thinking about the verses in Daniel, I never really thought much about them before, far as Daniel drinking wine and eating meat goes. Here are my thoughts...tell me what you think...

I believe it means what it says, when it says regarding Daniel, that he "ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled." The Bible says he didn't eat meat or drink wine those 3 weeks, clearly implying that before and after those 3 weeks, he did eat meat and drink wine.

I think we have to be really careful that we don't try to make the Bible say something it isn't saying.

Yes, vegetarianism was the original diet, given to man, but after the flood, all the followers of God ate meat. They started eating meat when they got out of the ark...with God's blessing....right on down through the ages...and it wasn't until the Lord gave Ellen White the visions on health, that God's people have been called to give up meat eating (not because God was trying to make more rules, but because meat eating had become so unhealthy). David and Daniel, Elijah and Moses, Aaron and all of them ate meat, for God told Noah in Genesis: Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. Genesis 9:3. Obviously we all know, "every moving thing" did not include the unclean animals, but it included all the clean animals. From the time of the flood til the 1800's, God's people have been permitted to eat meat.

But now, we have been given further instruction from God, and we need to walk in the light we have been given, and not continue to eat the meat. We need to lift the standard higher...

As far as Daniel drinking wine goes...well, David had multiple wives, too... Daniel and David were great men, but they are not our standard. One thing I'm confident of when it comes to wine, is that Daniel was temperate in his wine drinking. God has put on record for us, what drinking wine did to good men, like Noah and Lot. Both of them got drunk... Ellen White says that no one could ever find anything wrong with how Daniel conducted his life (his enemies were always watching him like a hawk, trying to find fault with him). If he had been drinking too much wine, you can be sure, he would have been making mistakes.

So, Daniel ate meat and drank wine. Is that any reason or excuse for us as SDA's today to continue eating meat and drinking alcohol? God forbid!

We cannot look back at the great men in the Bible and use them as the standard as to where we should be, as we have much more light than they!

Just on a side note, I believe that one of the reason Daniel and the Three Worthies didn't eat the meat and drink the wine when they were first taken into the Babylonian school, was that it had all been offered to idols, and of course, the Babylonians didn't have the clean & unclean meat laws, either. God blessed them for not compromising by eating unclean food and foods offered to idols.

Far as I can tell, John the Baptist was the only one in the Bible, after sin, who actually lived a vegetarian lifestyle...and he is the one who Ellen White says was a "type" of the last generation people, both in diet and in his simplicity of dress.

Looking forward to reading your thoughts....
Have a good day!

I sure know how you feel....we visited a church this Sabbath...was very disappointed...so much mixing of the common with the holy...came away feeling like I wished that Sabbath could start all over...was very discouraging.

Honestly, this is another topic, but I'm beginning to feel like they did in the Old Testament when there was so much apostacy going on, that they decided not to go to the temple, but to worship at home. I find more fellowship here on the forum than at church...

Thanks for making the forum available to us, Daryl!

Thanks Tammy for sharing your thoughts on this.
I don't believe God changes. He listed very clearly thousands of years ago what is clean and unclean meat, there are many poor people (SDA's and other Christians as well) who cannot afford the luxury of spending a couple of hundred dollars on changing their diet to be vegetarian, cause it's not cheap I counted as we made changes.
My point was being thaty if eating meat is a sin, and we know that Daniel ate meat, and Ellen White ate meat regardless of circumstances or anything, then it must be Ok to sin. That's where that line of thought ends.
I know it's not Ok to sin, after all that's why Jesus came, it was to take away our sins.
I believe that one should be temperate in all things, meaning one has to learn and be educated, and when they are willing to stop eating meat then fine. Until then, let them be convinced in their own mind. Our lives are a testimony to that, that's what people look at.

I am glad that you believe that Daniel ate meat and drank wine. I get exhausted over the same old theme over and over again. It really hinders me from participating anywhere in any forum, it gets old, but when someone presents a thought that I know is not Biblical, then I will present my thoughts.

Yeah, I believe John the Baptist was a vegetarian. Locust beans, I mean its even found in several products today, I think its called Locust Bean gum or something.
We must dress simple, but use your head about that. I found a site that was big on dress reformation, and when I looked at what they had I thought I was looking at a clip from the movie The Scarlett Letter, big huge dresses,bonnets, hear ye hear ye..

I am not comfortable with what's going on in our churches at least where I live, which was the complete opposite from when I was away a few weeks ago.
Last Sabbath I thought I was at a townhall meeting at work, all I could remember the pastor talking about was some life changing experience, so my mind went into autopilot and I thought about different things.. It was weird in the sense, that not enough scripture was given, not enough explanation and uplifting of Jesus. I'm old school when it comes to that, a church my dad helped start (actively helped start mind you, not a benchwarmer) has over 300 people actively attending church each and every Sabbath. This was over 20 years ago where it started very small and has grown, there are 2 services that occur at the same time one in english and one inspanish . There were people attending who's character and demeanor is warm, passionate, funny (humorous), willing to learn, and serving The Lord.
People came up to me and we talked, and I even got a free book!! And I love books, I can't get enough out of books hehehe
The book is called Omega II I highly recommend it to anyone. I am almost finished, and no it has nothing to do with the fringe groups constant badgering that it must be the trinity (blind people)..Its way deeper and very very interesting.
God Bless,
Will

The SDA Bible Commentary is quiet on the flesh and wine aspect of Daniel 10:3. The verse tells me that Daniel did in fact eat flesh food and drink wine prior to and after this period of mourning. The drinking of wine, however, could very well have been unfermented grape juice.

Hi Will

Your description of the dress reform site has sparked my curiosity. Can you share the site?

Also can you give an author for "Omega II"

I am having trouble understanding your statement:



Have I missed something? I have found plant based diet to be less expensive than a meat based diet. e.g. cost of lentil loaf verses cost of meat loaf.

Hi Crater,
I can't find the site, let alone remember the name of it. I recall searching for medical missionary training (trying to think of the keywords here), and I remember a beautiful picture of a mangrove and it was called a mangrove. That was all I could remember. I will continue searching for it though.
The book is called "Omega II God's church on the brink" authored by Lewis R. Walton. Its an amazing book.

I think you missed something regarding the cost of plant based diet.
1. People get bored. Try eating lentil loaf for a month straight and let me know if you want another piece

2. To prevent this boredom of food, you need to buy other things, like lots of other stuff including nuts which 100 grams of cashews cost $1.89, that's 100 grams 1/3 of a cup, almonds are costly as well. Factor in the cost of all the grains combined that you will prepare for dinner, if you have the chance, for more than 2 people, and multiple servings minimum 2 plates. So add, brown rice cause white rice has zero nutritional value, brown rice, or soy pasta, and get the ones that are gluten, wheat, and yeast free. If you are gonna live right go all the way.
Almost forgot oatmeal.. 1 Kilogram (2.2 Lbs) for $11.00 appx. I prefer Bob's redmill Scottish Oatmeal, and thats close to $3.00 a bag for 567 grams. I eat it twice a day with my fruits.

3. Fruits. I pay $6.00 for 1 bag, 600 grams of mixed berries blue,black,strawberry, and raspberry. It lasts me 3 days on average. So i buy 2-3 bags thats $18.00 for that alone, not counting melons, apples, lemons.

4. Vegetables. You have to go out and buy at least twice a week, this includes romaine lettuce, green onions,peppers, cucumber, zucchini etc.

5. Now dump out your white sugar, and start using brown rice syrup, that stuff is not even cheap. Paid 12-$13.00 for 1 humble looking bottle.

6. Distilled water..runs $6.00 for 4.5 liters. We buy 4 at a time, and since we both workout, we drink a lot of water 2 liters minimum a day.

7. Soy milk. If you have allergies, or have a low tolerance for it i.e. thyroid disorder, use almond milk, or oatmilk, which you can buy powedered and the ingredients are..almonds or oats. Look at paying 19-$20 some odd dollars for oat\almond milk.
1.5\1.8 litres of soy milk runs around $4.40. I consume it and go through 4 in 1 week very quickly as I use it to make my oatmeal. Now, I found 1 gallon of unsweetened soy milk, and the ingredients are filtered water and soy beans (I love the simplicity!) for 3.78. I have to buy another gallon tomorrow, and this lasts me 3-4 days tops.

Now if my wife consumed the soy products I get, then double the cost. So its not cheap, not by a long shot.

God Bless,
Will

I know that some people who are allergic to gluten must be carefull not to, but what reason could there possibly be for the rest of us to eat gluten free? After all, God placed the gluten right where we find it. And wheat? Whats up with wheat free? I mean, thats like saying "corn free" in southern US or "rice free" in southeast asia. Also dont know about the yeast?Thats strange. Around here, oatmeal is cheap food right in the same category with noodles and pasta.What about honey?

Yes, I think that is possible, Daryl, the only thing is, I thought if the wine was symbolic, then perhaps the meat was too, but in the context, the meat can't be symbolic, so, I then wasn't sure if the wine was.

Of course it is not OK to sin, Will. But, I think you are misunderstanding a real important point here. At different times, what was sin at one point, is not always sin at another. For instance: When God created man, it would have been sin, for Adam to kill an animal and eat it. But after the flood, God permitted the clean animals to be a part of the diet for man. So, what was once sin, that of eating meat, was no longer sin. And TODAY, it has changed again. TODAY, for an Adventist in the US (I realize there are poor people in other countries who cannot afford and who do not have the light we have) to continue to eat meat in the light of all the knowledge we have, it constitutes sin.

True, God never changes...but sometimes His rules do. But, if He changes His rules, He let's us know...he gives us fair warning...and He ONLY changes them for our own good!

Will, I know it can be expensive to eat vegetarian, but, there are definently ways of making it less expensive than a meat diet, too.

For instance, purchase a SoyToy and make your own soymilk...for less than .50/quart. I make it for our family 3 times a week. It is really good tasting, super healthy and cheap.

Join a CO-OP and purchase at wholesale or nearly wholesale...or join a buying club. I know you are in BC...and I know that Fountainview Academy receives items from Country Life Natural Foods in MI. Hook up with them, find out when the truck is coming, put your order in and you can save a ton of money.

Good morning,

Will, I wish to thank you for your patience. Truly I needed to read a bit more, which I read a great deal more. And prayed a lot more.

This morning I will refer you to Mrs. White.

1. They decided that as flesh-meat had not composed their diet in the past,
2. it should not come into their diet in the future
3. and as wine had been prohibited to all who should engage in the service of God
4. they determined that they would not partake of it.

In addition, we all have steps to take with regards to how we will deal with the information that the Holy Spirit teaches. For we know that Mrs. White did not uphold all the standards when she was chosen, but we see steadily that her steps progressed in the manner that God taught her.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

Greetings Tammy,

Very true that vegetarian products can be inexpensive too. I have transferred over to rice milk, which I can make my own if necessary, and have begun using sunflower seeds more often.

Your Sister,
Cheri

Cheri, thank you so much for finding these quotes...they are so clear!



Clearly, when Daniel says he refrained from meat & wine in Daniel 10, it cannot mean that Daniel ate meat or drank alcohol at other times, in the light of this quote.

I'm so thankful for the Spirit of Prophecy!

If it doesnt mean what it says, what then does it mean? And if it does mean what it says, and Ellens words refer to all of Daniels life and not just that event, would we then have a case of contradiction between the two?

Thomas

The word translated "meat" in Dan 10:3 means the following in the dictionary:

skin, meat (including sacrificial meat), flesh, body, humankind, animals.

Considering that he put it in his mouth and bread and wine are in the context, it seems reasonable to translate it meat, dont you think?

Greetings Thomas,

In my life, I have had to accept some truths without having all the knowledge and understanding. Truly it was a walk in faith for me on certain issues at times. But through prayer and supplication the Holy Spirit always seems to answer in His time, not mine.

As I sit here, I recall a time in which I asked the Lord to help me with a question. And then the Lord had not provided me with an answer for nearly a year. Although I had all the tools and verses before me, the understanding from the Holy Spirit was not provided until further education was given to me. Strangely I recall how I had read a certain verse many times, and I had not given it much thought. But then when I began to study once again, it was like my eyes were seeing for the first time.

But today I will share with you what I have considered and studied and prayed on:

Daniel
1:18-21 "Now at the end of the days that the king had said he should bring them in, then the prince of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar. And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king. And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king inquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm. And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus."

Please understand I am not asking you to hold onto my faith, for you need God giving your own oil for your soul. But I have faith that you are dearly seeking. And so that you are not confused, I am not saying that you will have to believe as I have. And I am not saying that your answer from God will be the same as mine, but I encourage you to continue in prayer and supplication. God will answer you, and that is what you need above all, His answer within you.

P.U.S.H. = Pray Until Something Happens!

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

Greetings Tammy,You are most thoughtful, and most welcomed.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

Thomas,
Daniel ate meat. Cheri doesn't believe it cause Ellen White said he didn't, it is a contradiction.
I believe that he did, and I am not convinced that he did not eat meat,wen the Bible says clearly in black and white that he fasted from pleasant bread, flesh meat and wine for 3 weeks.
God Bless,
Will

Hi Thomas,
I can't consume honey and when I do it's sparingly e.g. 1 every couple of months. We get it from a beekeeper so we get a large amount, like a pail\pale (forgot the spelling) for $25.00 and I have to make sure my diet is basically gluten free, so I opt for brown rice syrup as a substitute. I have allergies which is why I have to do a a lot of things things differently.
I was questioned as to why a plant based diet is expensive when all you need is a bowl of lentils, and I broke down my own experience. Its pricey.
God Bless,
Will

Yes, I can see that being allergic to gluten (and maybe other vegetabile substances) would make being a vegetarian much more difficult and expensive. It is a little better for those who are not allergic to foodstuff.

Then again, you dont have to make lentil loaf out of them lentils, they make some excellent soup aswell.

Thomas

Greetings Will,

Regarding your comment:With all due respect Brother Will, I do not recall stating such that I believe it because of Mrs. White.Let us consider this verse yet again:

• "I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled." Daniel 10:3

Here are some possibilities in which we can consider with our human reasoning powers:

1. That he is simply saying that he did not eat anything, including flesh meat.
2. That was he eating was flesh meat but he stopped for the fast.
3. That because the record was shown he remained faithful until the first year of Cyrus that he would again record history as not taking from things which he had original found unacceptable.
4. That he was simply saying that he did not annoint his head until three weeks passed. As annointing was an outward sign to the Jews of fasting. (Which is in total character for this humble man.)

Regardles how we humanly decide to make our opinion, we must remember that we are not to lean on our own opinion. This is why we are taught to be so desirous to pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit that we might have His education and wisdom rather than ours.

Truly Will, I do not implore you to believe as I. No one ever need to believe as I do. But I do encourage and plead that any one considering anything must go and to ask the for the Holy Spirit. And so that you understand, I do not suggest at all that you have not prayed and studied and ask for the Holy Spirit.

But my heart does become sad because my faith seems to cause you so much pain and I am sorry that I do seem to grieve you.

With thankfulness that I was able to share,
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

I eat lentil soup or actually lentils and brown rice with garlic (roast them first so you don't smell so badly hehe), 3 bean salad with vegetables in it, lots of beans\legumes really.
We have to be inventive, but eating lentils alone doesn't cut it, and have learned lots about eating properly, which goes in hand with our diet. Things such as removing processed foods which includes sugars and breads.
So theres quite a bit involved, and we both work, and both have activities after work, and we get home rather late during the week between 9-10:30pm Monday-Thursday.
God Bless,
Will

Cheri,
Your faith does not cause me pain or grief. I am going by what the Bible says, and it says he refrained from eating meat, bread, drinking wine, and putting oil on his head for 3 weeks. He stopped doing those things for a 3 week period. Its a done deal for me, for you it may be different, perhaps it is a sin for you. It's not for me.
God Bless,
Will

Will,

Would rye bread be out of question with your gluten allergy? If not, thats some good eating.

I can try and eat some, but I have a certain condition thingy that is embarrassing to say the least, which is why I had to go on this particular diet of eliminating all sugars, and breads, oils and all sorts of stuff.
On the positive side, my health has improved tremendously! I am not anorexic looking with rib cages showing and stuff, so its not one of those types of diets, I have meat on my bones, and good endurance and stamina, but I don't eat like everyone else does.
There are food items I buy to mimic a typical italian dish, such as black soybean pasta at 23 grams of protein per serving, topped with tomatoes, olives, and garlic. Add some almond milk to it, or 2 glasses of soy milk fortified with vitamins, and my body gets the nourishment it needs.
However, I do like to indulge every once in a while, so I think I may pick up some rye bread and make a tasty sandwich with it :-)
I remember I use to love tuna and rye, what a combo!
There are things like yeast I can't consume, and bread is made with yeast, at least a majority of it, but I am not sure if my body has built up a tolerance to it as I have not "tested" it out lately.
I'll check out the local bread shop and pick up a loaf of rye this week, and eat some to see how I react.
Thanks for that suggestion Thomas
God Bless,
Will

Thanks Will,

I was thinking that it could be the book by Walton. I read it some years ago. I think I must have it boxed up. My husband is after me to reduce the amount my books. One of my projects this spring it to go through my books and get rid of some.

People would get bored eating meat loaf for a month too.

I think everyones vegetarian experience is different; and the cost depends on where they live and how and where they shop; as well as what kind of foods do they prefer, their social economic life style, culinary skills, etc. . .

I tend to be fairly thrifty. I buy my grains, legumes, nuts and seeds in the bulk bin section. I also go to the store that has the best price on these items.

Prices have really increased this winter. Yellow onions at last years price were 4 lb. for $1.00, this year they are nearly $1.00 a lb. Wonder what's up with onions? I'm going to have to plant some this year.

I like scottish oats too. Bought some yesterday as well as cashew and walnuts from the bulk bin. The oats wt. .81 lb. and cost me 36 cents, the cashews wt. .58 lb. and cost me $1.76, the walnuts wt. .49 lb. and cost me $1.85. (in recipes that call for walnuts, I often use half sunflower seeds, which reduces the cost and adds some zinc.)

For my romaine I usually go to a store who's clientele tends to be the restaurant trade and purchase a bag of 6 heart of romaine for $2.99. I also get my lemons, tofu and rice noodles there for a much better price.

Mostly for my fruit and vegetables I try and buy in season. I purchase local grown when possible. I do try and grow my own when I can. We have planted an orchard but have found that some years will hardly produce. We do "put some food by", can, freeze, and dry. We do prefer to eat fresh and in season. We grow our own blueberries and freeze a lot of them. Made some sugar free blueberry jam this year and sweetened it with white grape juice concentrate. We also experimented with drying blueberries and liked the results.

We love plums and have a lot of varieties. Some years they don't all produce. Love tree ripened and eating right from the tree. Never buy the tasteless supermarket varieties. Cherry crop really varies from year to year. We grow apples and pears but the crop also varies from year to year. We enjoy making juice from the apples in our champion juicer. We use several varieties to make the juice and I just strain it. The strain pulp, I cook up for applesauce and just add some apple juice concentrate to sweeten. Also a few grapes and raspberries that we just eat fresh from the vine. Don't seem to have enough to "put by".

Paid 67 cents a gallon for my water yesterday. I guess if I wanted to fill jugs from a machine, I could get it for 30 cents a gal. or less.

I tend to prefer fruit juice concentrate for sweetener. For somethings maple syrup.
I have used brown rice syrup some, but not my preferred choice. Also have some honey and agave in my cupboard.

My budget doesn't allow to buy much organic. But I check out the organic section of my market. Sometimes they have some organic for the same or close to price of regular and then I do buy it.

I don't buy the out of season exported fruits as I don't know the conditions in which they were grown under. I wait for melon season to purchase them.

My spouse and I had never really cared for cows milk to drink, so drinking milk isn't something we do. So haven't felt a need to replace it with a substitute. Soy milk powder I have found good to use either dry to replace "powdered milk" in a recipe or to mix with water to replace milk in a recipe. I don't buy the type of flavored and sweeten found at ABC but have found a plain type for under $2.00 a pound the last time I purchased. For drinking, "millet milk" is really good in my opinion and is inexpensive to make. If you would like a recipe let me know.

We all need to include a certain amount of grains, fruits, and vegetables in our diet whether we are vegetarian of not. The main diet difference that I see would be the protein source; animal flesh vs. plant protein. I think one can get a good variety of plant based protein, pay much less for it and not get bored.

Hi Will,

You have come up with some interesting stuff, that I appreciate knowing about. e.g. Daniel 10: 2.3. This has made an interesting discussion and search of scripture and SOP for answers.

I have to say, on somethings, don’t you think you are doing a bit of “spinning”?

For example a little dialog we had, I never said, "all you need is a bowl of lentils". Perhaps you were referring to something someone else said. If that be the case I apologize.







Isn’t it your own personal allergies that have added to expense of "your vegetarian diet"? At the onset of our dialog, you failed to mention "I have allergies which is why I have to do a a lot of things things differently." With your "gluten allergies", you would still have the added expense of obtaining gluten free products if you wished to eat "breads" and "pasta" products, even if you were to eat a flesh based diet.

Would you not be buying your water and produce even if eating a flesh based diet?

If EGW says one thing and the Bible says another, then according to EGW, we should harmonize her writings with the Bible, rather than the Bible to her writings, therefore, I would say there is more research to be done.

Crater,

I stopped eating meat in '92 due to food poisoning.. That was enough for me.
When I visit family on my wifes side who are fishermen, all they can really offer is fish (clean fish mind you, scales and fins, deep waters), so I eat it, and enjoy every minute I spend with them during the holidays for dinner.
I'm not going to cower in a corner and lie and say that I wont eat it. If that offends someone, then don't watch. Easy isn't it.
That's my approach, pray, think, and make it happen. It's a done deal for me.
God Bless,
Will

Crater,
You said:


No its not, why would buying less of food be more expensive. If I could eat everything I would be buying up all sorts of things considered vegetarian, and my bill would increase dramatically.

I have certain items I buy, and have to take care of myself, or did the quote from 3 John 1:2 escape the minds of others? It doesn't mean "Stop eating meat", which by the way genetically modified rice with human genes is coming to a store near you.
Now what do you do? Again.. Be smart, use your head, think about what you are going to buy, start learning etc etc..
Migratory birds are getting sick and dying due to the avian flu, these birds eat seeds, some may eat fish such as geese not sure, but they are dropping like flies. Want to know why? It's the environment, the pollution is stressing them out causing their immune systems to become weak.
Creatures God made, that have a plant based diet with the antibodies to resist all sorts of things have become compromised due to pollution.
This is the future of things to come.
No spinning necessary, the surreal world is here.
God Bless,
Will

Greetings Daryl,

Yes, how important it is that we search the scriptures, for our Lord does say in them we think that we have eternal life! And we are told to search diligently. And that is exactly what the inspired words of Mrs. White do for my soul, inspires it to dig deeper and to pray more and more. I hope you enjoy your search Daryl.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

Greetings Will,

It is delightful to read that you are trusting in the scriptures, for this is very important.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

Mornin Daryl,
I'm not sure how long you have been an Adventist, but I've been one all my life. In your studies throughout your life, when there has been an apparent contradiction between the Bible and the SOP, as you look back, when you finally got the contradiction resolved, which one, the Bible or the SOP, did you find you were misunderstanding?

For me, I have to say, in all my 40+ years, it has NEVER been the SOP. In all the "apparent" contradictions, it was the Bible that I was misunderstanding.

So, for me, I've learned that when I read an apparent contradiction, (after all, they are Authored by the same Spirit) it is the Bible I'm misunderstanding.

It isn't safe to safe to say "Well, the Bible says it in black & white." It also says in "black & white" lots of other things, like -

Speaking about the feasts: This [is an ordinance] for ever to Israel. 2 Chronicles 2:4.

So, should we be keeping the feast days still, as it is in "black & white" that it says "forever"?

And many other things are in "black & white"...that don't necessarily mean what they appear to say. That is one of the reasons God has given us the SOP, so that we can come into put all the pieces of the puzzle together and have a beauiful harmony.

Tammy,
Do you have a problem with what Daryl wrote? What do you find so offensive that would cause you to deny the Bible,and call Daryl's faith into question.



The topic has gone sour with that comment Tammy. I'll revisit it when I wake up, unfortunately I know exactly where this is going., so please spare the database and don't go into questioning people's faith by making them believe exactly how you believe etc etc.. no one does, I don't believe exactly as you believe, and vice versa. We're not cloned, programmed robots. Just put it to rest.
God Bless,
Will

No Will, I understand what Daryl is saying, and I am pretty sure that Daryl & I are on the same page, concerning the SOP. I don't understand why you think anything has gone "sour".

Have a good rest....

Good morning Tammy,

Also, I believe that the Spirit of Prophect and the Holy Scriptures are from the same Spirit too. And that as they are both sent from God have to harmonize.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

Greetings Will,There are a few concerns I have with your statement, but first would encourage you to consider the following verses:

• Galatians 3:7 "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham."
• Acts 2:1 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place."
• Romans 12:16 "Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits."
• 1 Corinthians 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

According the the Scriptures we are to be working towards unity in Christ Jesus when we call ourselves His. You may find it rather interesting to know that even the scriptures contradict themselves, but through the grace of God by the power of His Holy Spirit we may discern that they are not contradictions at all.

The additional concerns would be the tone in which you have set your statements. So I will not say further but give to you the following to consider:

• Romans 12:10 "Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;"

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

I wonder what reactions this text will get: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53327

Thomas

Hello Thomas, Abuse in foods can produce different behavior(s). For many of us have learned that if we are not properly nourishing our systems we will be imbalanced.

With all things we are not to over indulge/abuse our sytems. The Lord created many different types of fruits, nuts and vegetables to eat freely from. Through study we may find that each one produces different attributes for our health. So therefore we must return to temperance for our standard and consider enjoying more than one type of fruit, vegetable or nut.

Again, it comes back to whether or not we will be temperate in the things which are called good by God.

• 1 Corinthians 9:25 "And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible."

Thank you sharing the article.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

First of all, I personally didn't feel that Tammy was questioning my faith in what she posted. If I did, I would have responded accordingly.

In response to her question though, if I see a Bible text that contradicts a SOP quote, I will take the Bible text over the SOP one, but only after careful research and study. This is the way EGW would want it to be done. After saying this, in all my 31 years as a Seventh-day Adventist, I never came across one that looks like a clear contradiction until now, which is why I need to look at this in relation to other Bible texts, context, etc. as well as other related EGW quotes. As this may take me some time to accomplish, please don't expect a quick response.

It takes 2 Cheri.
God Bless,
Will

Tammy,
I thought that is has gone sour due to your questions, which is why I asked you. Or was it too much for me to ask?
God Bless,
Will

Hello Sister Cheri,

Thank you for your diligence, patience and calm spirit in sharing this topic. I agree with your study, based upon Daniel 1, Genesis 1 and EGW's consistent description of Daniel's life. Many of these texts have been posted by Tammy, Daryl and Crater.

I had overlooked Daniel 10:3, and I am glad Will has revealed the text. On the surface it does not appear to harmonize with our understanding. It is possible that EGW was wrong in her many strong statements regarding Daniel's life-long example of temperance. But these are not passing comments. They present the vital testimony of a sanctified life in the court of Babylon, one who would rather die than compromise principle. I submit that Daniel 10:3 can harmonize with this principle. All should consider the possibility before discounting the body of inspired evidence.

Daniel was in mourning three full weeks. (Daniel 10:2)

Jacob rent his clothes and mourned for his son many days. "He refused to be comforted..he said..I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him." (Genesis 37:35)

"Samuel mourned for Saul" (1 Samuel 15:35)

Nehemiah "sat down and wept, and mourned certain days and fasted" (Nehemiah 1:4)

Daniel 10:2,3

"In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks."

KJV: "I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled"

Paraphrase: "I ate no desirable food, neither did I resort to the flesh food and bubbling wine of the heathen, neither did I anoint myself three full weeks."

Often in times of mourning, sadness or fasting, one is tempted to resort to those things which are not kosher, not approved for consumption, the dainties of the world. This will vary with individual as the Spirit leads, but will always agree with the spirit of the written Word.

In His great trial of temptation, Jesus would have failed if he had turned the stones to bread in the wilderness. (Matthew 4:3)

The Israelites sinned in their time of weeping; influenced by the mixt multitude they died with quail in their teeth. (Numbers 11:33)

But Daniel affirms that he did not fall prey to such temptation, though such food surrounded him. In time of prolongued mourning he maintained integrity of soul and was rewarded by the visit of Jesus Christ, his Maker and Saviour. Perhaps a type or foreshadow of the people of God before the Second Coming.

Gordon

Hi gordonb1,
You stated an opinion by paraphrasing Daniel 10 2 to mean he ate no desirable food, when in fact he did not eat any pleasant bread. Bread means bread, like wonder bread, the type that is put into an oven, it is used to designate that type of food. If it was food in general he would have stated he ate no food for 3 weeks.
The fact of the matter is that Daniel did eat this, else how can he fast from something he did not eat. He could have fasted from anything and it would have been stated.
The man obviously did not eat unclean meat, so lets not confuse the issue by blurring it out to the point that he ate absolutely no meat meaning clean meats.
If I am wrong in summarizing what you have presented do let me know.

God Bless,
Will

I went back to the SDA Bible Commentary and discovered the following in relation to Daniel 1:8 which I will quote first followed by the quote from the SDA Bible Commentary:



The Bible Commentary includes the following comment by EGW in relation to both Daniel 1:8 and Daniel 10:3 with Daniel 10:3 being quoted first:



The following part in Daniel 10:3 is what is bothering me. Is it referring to the whole verse prior to "till three whole weeks were fulfilled", or is it only in reference to "neither did I anoint myself at all"?

I thought I would post again and say I posted what I posted before reading what gordonb1 and Will posted, therefore, my previous post was posted independent of and not knowing what they posted.

Here is a historical account:


God Bless,
Will

Here is an exerpt from the same book on chapter 10 pg 225, 226:

God Bless,
Will

Gordon,

How far are you willing to go to reason with a text that you disagree with to make it more agreeable?

Thomas

This thread has been to many places, but I did not see any real discussion on what I found most interesting. Is everybody agreed that regardless of what one puts in his mouth, it is fine if it is according to God's will, but it is sin if it is not according to God's will?

Rom 14:12 So then each one of us will give account concerning himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Then let us no longer judge one another, but rather judge this, not to put a stumbling-block or an offense toward a brother.
Rom 14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing by itself is common; except to the one deeming anything to be common, it is common.
Rom 14:15 But if your brother is grieved because of your food, you no longer walk according to love. Do not by your food destroy that one for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Then do not let your good be spoken evil of.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Rom 14:18 For the one serving Christ in these things is pleasing to God, and approved by men.
Rom 14:19 So then let us pursue the things of peace, and the things for building up one another.
Rom 14:20 Do not by your food undo the work of God. Truly, all things are clean, but it is bad to the man who eats through a stumbling-block.
Rom 14:21 It is good not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything by which your brother stumbles, or is offended, or is weak.
Rom 14:22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Blessed is the one not condemning himself in what he approves.
Rom 14:23 But the one doubting, if he eats, he has been condemned, because it is not of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin.

I think Paul is teaching that food is an issue between yourself and God, except in such cases where your eating disturbs the faith of another person. So in company, eat in such a way as to not cause others at the table to stumble. But when eating at home, count your meal as between yourself and God and do not invite a third person to judge your private meal.
Oh, and do not make an issue over what other people are eating. That is between them and God. For just as your meal is between you and God, their meal is between them and God. As Paul writes a few sentences previously:

Rom 14:1 And receive the one who is weak in the faith, not to judgments of your thoughts.
Rom 14:2 One indeed believes to eat all things, but being weak, another one eats vegetables.
Rom 14:3 The one eating, do not despise the one not eating. And the one not eating, do not judge the one eating, for God received him.
Rom 14:4 Who are you judging another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. But he will stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Greetings Brethren and Sisters,

I was reading that he was about 82 years old when he fasted because of the prophecy that Jeremiah have given was coming close to its fulfillment.

• Daniel 9:3 "And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:" KJV

Here it is interesting to note that he was fasting and not mourning.

1. Daniel was praying,
2. pleading for a favor from God,
3. which he did with fasting,
4. and sackcloth,
5. and ashes.

Please note that Daniel continued his ways even to the first year of king Cyrus. Now Daniel entered into prayer and supplications and included himself to be among the sinful. In Daniel 9 we read that as soon as God heard his supplications the command for Gabriel happened to quickly go to him. This is an example of a sanctified man, humble and diligent and God answering prayers immediately.

Then as we read further, as Gordon has shown, Daniel mourned. And he provided what type of mourning he entered into.

• Daniel 10:1-3 "In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision. In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks. I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled." KJV

Here we are, Daniel was mourning and therefore he would not annoint himself for those three weeks. He was spending his time in atonement (In one with God-ment) or if you will, covering himself with God. Let us recall in Daniel 9 he was pleading forgiveness, although he was not guilty of the sins for which he was pleading for.

The reason for Daniel's mourning was for the wisdom of God.

Interesting parallel is that we are living in the Antitypical Day of Atonement. And that our diet should be simple, striving towards heavenly patterns, just as Daniel was exampling during his mourning. And like Daniel, the people of God will also have this great love and pray for deliverance.

Conclusion: I find that Daniel did not change his character, in fact, I see that his supplications and prayers became stronger. That Daniel was growing yet closer to the Lord. And for those of us that understand the health message, perhaps we might remember that if he entered into flesh and alcohol, his character would have changed. And if that were possible, do you not think that we would have seen a record for changing his life style after dilberating and living so long a standard?

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

Cheri,
Daniels character is not what is being called into question, it's a distraction on your part to try and make it seem as if he was always a vegetarian, but that is not the case.
Try and be open minded to what is plainly written.
God Bless,
Will

Daniels Ways = God fearing man, and the Israelites were a God fearing people, meaning as posted earlier that He paid close attention to God's laws, including the health ones which means that he ate no unclean meat, and that he ate clean meats, or do you not believe that?
He was nearly killed because he refused to bow down to an idol, not because he forbade flesh meat from coming to his mouth.
God Bless,
Will

I see that as an outworking of the principle I was talking about. Obedience and disobedience are both a matter between the person and God. What is in your mouth is nowhere near as important as what is in your heart. If it is in your heart to obey God, you're fine; if it is in your heart to try to do something that is not God's will, whether by outright rebellion or by theological/intellectual gymnastics to make it seem OK, you're dead. Does everyone here agree?

Some people do binge eat during times of sadness as their way with dealing with the situation.

Really västergötland, You got to be kidding.

This would explain why all the men in Japan are gay! Except they seem to keep marrying and producing children…

And the Chinese so infertile!

It seems that there should then be a decrease in lesbians if this was the case.

For a more balanced view on soy read what John Robins has to say.
http://www.healthyat100.org/display.asp?catid=3&pageid=12

I would be more concerned about the hormones in beef and milk. rBGH (bovine growth hormone) is more likely a culprit than soy if there is one. BGH makes cows udders expand to grotesque proportions and is in all typical dairy (milk, butter, cheese, cream, etc.), eggs, chicken and beef, all a staple of the American diet.

I wonder how much the meat & milk industry paid him to write that article!?!?!?

I've lived on Soy for 45+ years, fed tons of soy to my 5 kids, 2 of which are boys, 18 & 20 years old, and they are as manly as they come. My husband has ate all the soy I fed him for nearly 30 years, with none of those "symptoms".... This is a crock, to say the least!

It is never too much to ask, Will...

I was thinking the same thing,Cheri... It makes no sense at all for Daniel to be portrayed as so strict, straight & true in his early years in Babylon...and then, when he is an old man and closer to God than ever, to the point that he is THE MAN who God chooses in all the world to communicate with, to give him visions for these last days, that then he is supposed eating meat and drinking alcohol just prior to these visions???? He just took a temporary break from the alcohol and meat while he gets the visions from the Lord???? God forbid!

I believe Gordon gave a very good paraphrase of the verse in question.

Personally, I think it could be dangerous to look at it like that, Arnold. I'm afraid alot of people could do alot of justifying, and eat pretty much anything, as they tell themselves that "their heart was right with the Lord"...

I believe that if our heart is right with the Lord, there are certain things we just plain won't eat, won't drink, won't wear, won't say, etc, etc, etc. There still are some "black and whites" - not everything is all gray...

After all it is "By their fruits (what they DO, including eating, drinking & dressing) that we will know them.

Sorry if it seems like I'm posting too many quotes together...I have little time during the day...so usually whatever I have the chance to post, has to be posted in the morning...

Can we think the the Prophet of God, Daniel, was under any less prohibition?

Good morning Will,It is common knowledge that alcohol changes our mental abilities. In fact, what ever we put into our bodies has an effect. Cause equals effect.

Daniel himself teaches that he did not touch these things because the state of his mind was mourning (ref. Daniel 10:2).

Let us remember that character is also defined as moral and ethics, therefore to discuss Daniels character is relevant because we are discussing his principles as to whether or not he left his great choice from youth.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

Cheri,
#1 He was in mourning for 3 weeks, and he stated that as a result he did not touch X,Y,Z for those 3 weeks
#2We are talking about meat eating not drinking.
To discuss Daniels character is not relevant. Claiming eating meat is a sin is relevant to this topic.
That's what we are talking about. Did he eat meat yay or nay? Can yo answer that Cheri.
Here:
Do you believe that Daniel ate meat.
God Bless,
Will

These all problems with Daniel eating meat all disapear once we realise that in Daniels day, noone had ever heard that eating meat was would be a sin. Eating unclean meat yes, but eating clean meat no. At no time during the time Israel existed is eating properly slaughtered lamb, goat or cow/bulls described or refered to as sin. And no matter how many times we disagree with it will change it. Daniel was a righteous man and the fact is that being a vegetarian was NOT part of the definition of righteousness during the time he lived. And the passages from Romans show that this had not changed in those years. For Paul, being a vegetarian still was not part of the definition of rightousness. Even if, IF, this definition changed through Ellens time and through her messages, that in no way should be used to judge those who lived in times prior to her. Something said in the mid 19th century can not change or affect the righteouness of someone who lived 3000 years previously.

Paul makes a simmilar argument in Galatians:

Gal 3:17 And I say this, A covenant having been ratified before to Christ by God, the Law coming into being four hundred and thirty years after, does not annul the promise, so as to abolish it.

Likewise, the righteousness of Daniel, having been acknowledged by God, is in no way affected by a new moral code coming 3000 years later, and in no way abolish it.

And again, from the day Moses brought Israel out of Egypt, to the day Jesus died on the cross, the law of the Torah made clear that vegetarianism was punishable by death. For the one who did not partake of the passover lamb was to be eliminated from the people. Daniel could *not* have been faithfull to God and to vegetarianism at the same time. Daniel I believe choose God.

I asked for a reaction, and this is one. Good.

However, I would like to know how injecting meat and dairy cattle with this growth hormone gets it into eggs and chicken? Unless you are saying that they feed the chicken with beef...

Also noticed that your quote reflected the EU view on hormone grown cattle. Well, I happen to live within the EU area, so the circumstances might be slightly better for me than for you in this area.

Greetings Will,To my knowledge the topic of this study is "A Bible Study on Vegetarianism" though currently we are discussing our faith with regards to Daniel if he continued to eat flesh meat and began drinking alcohol.

For me not to enter into the issue of mourning would mean for me to leave out a verse. Since mourning is Daniel's description of his mental frame of mind it must be taken into consideration because this continues to identify the moral and ethics of his personality.

Also, it is Daniel that mentions both alcohol and flesh eating, therefore both should be taken into consideration when asking for discernment from the Lord. And I find no sin in discussing both.

It is true, I do not believe that Daniel changed his diet from the time of his youth. Through prayer, study and supplication, the Lord has provided peace on this issue that Daniel did not eat flesh and did not drink alcohol in his daily dietary habits.

I do not desire to debate on this issue, for I have given my understanding, and have given testimony to my faith. Have kept my heart and mind towards Christ Jesus. And have asked for the Holy Spirit to teach me.

Will, clearly you have your faith and even perhaps conviction. Be in peace with it and be joyful in the Lord because when God wants me to know differently He will make it well known for He is a kind and considerate God. So therefore I suggest that if my faith does cause you pain and suffering pray for me that my eyes will be opened if you see them closed.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

Greetings Thomas,

Taking of the passover lamb was type that represented Antitype, which is Christ Jesus. To take and eat was no sin but an obligation. For it was their benefit to comprehend how much of Christ Jesus they would need in their entire embodiment, just as today. For myself, I cannot compare the sacrifice to daily dietary requirements.

Intersting thought question for you: Do you know that when we take of the Lord's supper we are still taking of the flesh and the blood?

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

Yes, I know that it represents the passover sacrafice of Jesus.

Yes, it could be dangerous, but I see no way to avoid it. God has not seen fit to give each one of us a comprehensive list of dos and don'ts. Instead, He wants each of us to be attuned to His still, small voice.

As we should all know by now, people do a lot of self-justification. Not just in meat-eating, but worse, in pride, self-sufficiency, arrogance. I know of "messengers of God" who can rail on someone for "gossip," but never realize that the information they have was gathered through the same means. I confronted one about it, and she replied, "I don't care what people say. My heart is right with God."

We could wish that God would give such a one a list of what not to do. But God doesn't want computers to program. He wants people to lovingly reflect His character. And that requires a level of danger.



Very true. But we must realize what makes something black or white.

What God tells you may or may not have anything to do with me. OTOH, what God tells me is black and white for me.

Cheri touched on something in her post that I was thinking and wondering about even before I read her post on this.

Although a special meal, such as we have at Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc., I see this as an actual meal in which an actual lamb, flesh food, was eaten. On this special occasion, I would assume that Daniel also ate this flesh food meal?

Since you asked! Apparently they do feed beef part to chickens! Though I wouldn't say that is the primary source of growth hormones for chickens.







Chickens are given growth hormones too!





Looks like the fish aren't safe now either!


I assume that Will's in-laws serve wild salmon.

That thought had occurred to me also. Did they not also eat the bitter herbs with the meal?

Yes Sister Cheri,

The ceremonial obligation is quite different from the daily dietary. We should not confuse the sacred with the common. Rather I believe the shedding of blood at Passover would cause regret and deep contemplation for the contrite believer, as it typifies the death of Christ due to our sins.

Thus the passover lamb would be slain and consumed with regret, reflection and a recognition of guilt. This would not be an act of appetite gratification, but rather remorse, as well as humble gratitude toward the Saviour.

Gordon

Greetings Brother Gordon,
Amen.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

Even though not a daily dietary, it is still considered the eating of flesh food, which, if a sin, wouldn't even be appropriate as a symbol.

I just had a sudden thought.

What about Christ while in His humanity on this planet?

After all, isn't Christ our Example?

Did Christ abstain from the eating of flesh food?

Don't get me wrong.

I am not advocating the eating of flesh food, however, I am not going so far as to condemning those who do as committing a sin in so doing.

Neither am I, but I think we need to get a clear idea of what constitutes sin.



What goes into the mouth is not as important as why it is there. Is it there to gratify the Spirit or the flesh? That is the key.

Greetings Brethren and Sisters,

Upon reading Gordon's post, my soul was deeply touched. And then the Holy Spirit suggested that I consider the Holidays during this time. So here is what I have found:

• Daniel 10:1-4
  "In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision. In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks. I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled. And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel."

When is this first month? It is Nissan, which is March-April. During this time we often remember a holiday ourselves called "Easter." But during this time Daniel was mourning, it was within the time of Passover. Therefore beyond his character we view that he was filled with deep sorrow inside. So much so that he did not take Passover.

1. I ate no pleasant bread
2. neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth
3. neither did I anoint myself at all

And to Will, I do not know if this will help you, but ask that you might consider what has been shared.

And then Brother Gordon explained the understanding of the Passover Lamb so well:Daryl and Crater, does this information combined with Brother Gordon's help?

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

Greetings Daryl,
There is no record in Spirit of Prophecy that Christ abstained. Yet in the scriptures we have to remember a prophecy in:

• Isaiah 7:15 "Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good."

And this presents for many a contradiction in the scriptures. This is something that I had prayed on for nearly a year before the Lord provided me with an answer. But God is good and in His time provides all truth.

Did Christ abstain from flesh foods. I truly believe that He did, but it took much prayer and supplication, many days of education, and patience before I received my answer.

• Romans 14:5 "...Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
  
  Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
  Cheri

Does eating fish come under the category of the eating of flesh food?

I doubt that Daniel missed Passover.

First, that would have been against God's command (Numbers 9:13). Daniel was not the type to do that.

Second, it was already the 24th day of the month, past Passover, if it indeed was Nissan. It would also be past the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Third, it is possible that he used the secular calendar, making it the 7th month of the religious calendar - Tishri. But if it was the 24th, it would also be past the Day of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles.

My rule of thumb: If it has a face, yes.

That being the case, we know that Christ ate fish, both before and after His resurrection.

Greetings Daryl,

Prior to my time in study on this "contraction" in the scriptures I had always kept faith that Christ ate fish. But then my eldest son wanted to know if Christ would eat what He taught us not to. When I entered into the study, I had to learn how to leave my own opinion at the door, as we all do when studying with God.

So may I suggest taking more time in prayer and study on this issue, especially if you are interested in knowing if there is a contraction. It is well worth the time invested, at least it was for me. Again it took me nearly a year of searching the scriptures before I could know what Christ did and/or did not do with regards the contradiction in Isaiah and the other verses.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

It gets worse. Would He provide food for the disciples that would be sinful to eat?



Sis Cheri, I'd like to clear this up in less than a year. Would you mind giving me a summary of your conclusions and the evidence to support them? Thanks.

Also, how do you understand Luke 24:42-43?

Regret and remorse? Right...

Exo 12:24 And you shall observe this Word for an ordinance for you, and for your sons forever.
Exo 12:25 And it shall be, when you come into the land which Jehovah shall give to you, as He has spoken, you shall observe this service.
Exo 12:26 And it shall be, when your sons say to you, What is this service to you?
Exo 12:27 Then you shall say, A sacrifice of a passover of Jehovah, who passed over the houses of the sons of Israel in Egypt when He struck Egypt. And He delivered our houses. And the people bowed and worshiped.

Exo 12:42 It is a night of celebration to Jehovah, for bringing them out from the land of Egypt. This night is a celebration for all the sons of Israel to their generations.
Exo 12:43 And Jehovah said to Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the Passover. No stranger may eat of it.

Looks more like praise and gratitude to me.

Num 9:10 Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your generations shall be unclean by reason of a body, or be in a distant journey, yet he shall keep the Passover to Jehovah.
Num 9:11 In the second month, on the fourteenth day at dusk, they shall keep it; they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs;
Num 9:12 they shall leave none of it until morning, nor break a bone of it. According to all the statutes of the Passover, they shall keep it.

So if Daniel did not take passover on its regulated day on the fourteenth of the first month, then he was to take it on the fourteenth of the secound month. And if he then again refrained from taking passover...

Num 9:13 But the man that is clean, and is not on a journey, and has failed to prepare the Passover, even that person shall be cut off from his people, because he did not bring the offering of Jehovah in its appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.

Here we have an acctual sin, one that is recorded in the bible. Do we prefer that Daniel would have broken a commandment God acctually recorded in the bible in order to save Daniel from breaking a "commandment" that is NOT in the bible? This is approaching the rediculious...

Considering Jesus and meat.

Mat 14:16 But Jesus said to them, They have no need to go away. You give them food to eat.
Mat 14:17 But they said to Him, We have nothing here except five loaves and two fish.
Mat 14:18 And He said, Bring them here to Me.
Mat 14:19 And commanding the crowds to recline on the grass, and taking the five loaves and two fish, looking up to Heaven, He blessed. And breaking, He gave the loaves to the disciples, and the disciples gave to the crowds.
Mat 14:20 And all ate and were satisfied. And they took up the left over pieces, twelve hand-baskets full.
Mat 14:21 And the ones eating were about five thousand men, besides women and children.

Mat 15:34 And Jesus said to them, How many loaves do you have? And they said, Seven, and a few small fish.
Mat 15:35 And He ordered the crowds to recline on the ground.
Mat 15:36 And taking the seven loaves and the fish, giving thanks, He broke and gave to His disciples, and the disciples to the crowd.
Mat 15:37 And all ate and were satisfied. And they took up the left over pieces, seven lunch baskets full.
Mat 15:38 And the ones eating were four thousand men, apart from women and children.

Luk 24:36 And as they were telling these things, Jesus Himself stood in their midst, and said to them, Peace to you!
Luk 24:37 But being terrified, and being filled with fear, they thought they saw a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And He said to them, Why are you troubled? And why do reasonings come up in your hearts.
Luk 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that I am He? Feel Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see Me having.
Luk 24:40 And saying this, He showed them His hands and feet.
Luk 24:41 But yet they not believing from the joy, and marveling, He said to them, Have you any food here?
Luk 24:42 And they handed a broiled part of a fish to Him, and from a honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And taking these before them, He ate.

Joh 21:7 Then they cast, and they no longer had the strength to draw, from the multitude of the fish. Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, It is the Lord. Then hearing that it is the Lord, Simon Peter girded on his coat (for he was naked) and threw himself into the sea.
Joh 21:8 And the other disciples came in the little boat, for they were not far from the land, only about two hundred cubits, dragging the net of the fish.
Joh 21:9 Then when they went up on the land, they saw a coal fire lying, and a fish lying on it, and bread.
Joh 21:10 Jesus said to them, Bring from the little fish which you caught now.
Joh 21:11 Simon Peter went up and dragged the net onto the land, full of big fish, a hundred and fifty three. And though being so many, the net was not torn.
Joh 21:12 Jesus said to them, Come, break fast. And no one of the disciples dared to ask Him, Who are You? knowing that it is the Lord.
Joh 21:13 Then Jesus came and took the bread, and gave to them, and in the same way the little fish.
Joh 21:14 This now is three times that Jesus was revealed to His disciples, He being raised from the dead.

So, what do we have here. Jesus is recorded as twise feeding huge crowds of people with fish and bread. After His death and ressurection He first eats bread and fish to prove that it is He (which also indicates that it wasnt the first time He ate that). He then serves fish and bread to the diciples once again before He left earth. And of course we all remember that the last meal Jesus had before His crusifiction was the passover meal. Come on now, wouldnt it just be easier to confess that eating meat is not a sin? Who here dares accuse Jesus of sin for His custom of eating fish?

Thomas

Crater,
You said:


It's wild salmon, not store bought, but what they bring back on their boats.
Good eye! lol!!
God Bless,
Will

Jesus is not a minister of sin, thus if meat eating is a sin, and he ate meat i.e. fish, and fed people fish and bread, then He would have been a liar, and not the Messiah who would "Magnify the Law". God Bless,
Will

Hello Thomas,

Thank you for the reply. Our Bibles render quite different meanings of the verse.

The King James Version:

Exodus 12:42 It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out of the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.

The margin reads "a night of observations". This word (8107 in Strong's Concordance) only appears twice in the Bible, both times in this same verse. But the root for 8107 is 8104, which is translated as beware, circumspect, take heed, keep, mark, look narrowly, preserve, regard, watch, etc. Here we find the real meaning. Watchfulness, sobriety. In perfect accord with the impending doom of the tenth plague about descend upon the unmarked houses.

Here are some examples of 8104. None indicate 'celebration' as quoted from your Bible.

Exodus 23:12,13: "Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest...And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods.."

Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Proverbs 19:16 He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul

Psalm 121:7 The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil:he shall preserve
thy soul

Isaiah 62:6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem

(8104 occurs over 450 times but this is representative of the usage - no hint of celebration, quite the opposite)

Thomas, please mention which Bible version you have quoted.

It may be of interest to others that this word for watch, beware, take heed, beware, circumspect, is applied to solemn occasions such as Passover, keeping the commandments, guarding the sanctity of the Sabbath, the tabernacle service, etc.

Thomas has expressed his endorsement of the ecumenical movement before and this would only be natural if he is reading from an ecumenical Bible. This would explain how circumspect and watchfulness become celebration.

Remember the Catholic charismatic movement that swept the SDA Church in early 1990s, the Celebration Church. Here was introduced much of the music, drums, clapping and evangelical style worship, in place of the reverent (albeit often cold) historic Adventism. It changed the Church. And it seems as if it may be justified by certain Bible versions. An interesting revelation - thank you for this study Thomas. Again, please note which Bible version you have quoted.

Gordon

Gordonb1,
Can you elaborate and provide more detailed information on your statement:


That's quite serious charge, considering the goal of the ecumenical movement to take back all united churches to Rome, unless that's not the purpose of the ecumenical movement.
God Bless,
Will

Yes Will, I did recall your confession to eating fish with the in-laws. They being fisherman, and the deep water catch lead me to assume it would be "fresh caught and wild".

I haven’t condemn you and I don’t think Ellen would either, if you eat a little fish at your in-laws. They apparently know first hand the condition and health of the fish.

Here is what I have found Ellen to say. Not to to be a conscience for another.



Ellen advocated Avoidance of meat eating, not because it is regarded as sin to eat meat, but because it is not healthful.



Vegetarianism not a test of church "fellowship", but she does have some things to say on the subject of flesh food.

Mornin Cheri,
Well, I have to disagree with you on this one...both the Bible and the SOP clearly state that Jesus ate fish:



Perhaps you were not aware of this quote, Cheri...but I do believe we have to be careful of not taking a stand on something and then trying to force all texts/quotes to fit into our understanding.

I liked those quotes Crater, not out of preference, but out of a balanced view\perspective.
I agree that we need to be on our toes, and more so than ever in these times, cause darkness is falling upon the land, and we know that it is always darkest before the Light.

God Bless,
Will

From what you said, what led you to this conclusion, was that your son asked the question, "Why would Jesus eat something He has asked us not to eat?" Rather than trying to prove to him that Jesus did not eat meat, as clearly the Bible and SOP both say that He ate the fish, and surely He took part in the Passover, too, it would be better to search for a different answer for your son.

From the beginning of time, at certain times, what is right during one time, is not always right at a prior or later time. For instance, circumcision. Obviously, circumcision was not instituted until after sin, and it was done away with at the death of Christ. During that time frame, it was a law that all those who really were following God were circumcised. But today, circumcision is no longer necessary. So, there was a time when circumcision was not necessary, then it was necessary and now, it is not necessary again.

The same situation applies to meat. Before the flood, man was not given any permission to eat meat, clean meat included. But after the flood, man was given permission to eat clean meat, as there was little else to eat, and it was given them for the purpose of shortening their life spans....which it did. Before the flood, man was living 900+ years. Within 10 generations after the flood, man was doing good to make it to 150 years old. That is what a high protein meat diet does, speeds up the metabolism, children come to puberty sooner, reproduce sooner, age faster, and die sooner.

It was not a sin for people to eat meat from the time of the flood to the time when the SOP tells us that it was time to give up meat. If it had been a sin, obviously, Jesus wouldn't have eaten it. But today, it is sin for an Adventist, who has the light on the health message to continue to eat meat -



If it was not sin to eat meat now, it would not be called "an evil example" now.

Interesting situation here.

I quoted from a bible translation I only know as "literal translation of the holy bible" in my e-sword program. Looking up the word for myself in a dictionary, I find that it means "nightwatch" or "vigil". The commentary part says as follows:
So the celebration part is something brought from the psalms... I tend to agree with you here. It would have been better if the word had been translated "nightwatch" or "vigil" as it is supposed to.

Strongs which only give the root of the word has the meanings you wrote about, though the dictionary gives a specific translation of the word as it occurs in this particular context. The root of the word translates into: "watch, guard".

As to your musings considering the ecumenical movement and the catholic church, there are other threads for those questions.

/Thomas

Good morning Tammy,When you have the opportunity to return to my statements you will read "When I entered into the study, I had to learn how to leave my own opinion at the door, as we all do when studying with God."

Also, my sons question came because we had just finished studying how the Israelites where punished in the wilderness. And then we happened across Isaiah, thus was seen a contradiction. And that is what prompted my son's question. And as a mother, I could not answer him, so I set out to be a mom who would be the teacher. During this time, God set out to teach me to use His patience and to stretch my faith into being exercised. Just to have those things happen were such a great blessing.

I know that many disagree with with what I learned, but this is the reason that I implore each to work it out with God, not I. He is after all the source in which ALL truth will come.

Now directing myself to all who read here:

• Scriptures are to agree with one another and we are to search "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" And through all study we must learn to empty ourselves for my experience has taught me that our sinful nature does cloud our opinions.

There were many things to taken into consideration when I studied this issue out. I also had to review much history. So here are some verses that are in contradiction:

• Isaiah 7:15 "Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good."
• Luke 24:41-43 "And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."

The reason why I posted about the Holidays:

I was speaking with Daryl and he had asked me to post to see where it leads.

With regards to searching for a reason why Daniel made the statement in 10:3...well if you knew my heart you would find a Sister that greatly wanted to share and hoped that it would help to give peace to those who where searching. I have entered into prayer, and I am not done with studying this particular issue out. Who knows how long it will take before the Lord gives me the answer. But I know it must be through the means He has directed me so that I will have a foundation to stand on. If it takes another year, or fifty it will be a great blessing just to have recieved from our Lord.

Also, I am back on my regular schedule and I probably will not be able to give the time as I have done for this past week. So I am hoping that you will find it in your hearts to understand that as a mother I need to give my time to my family first, for I am a firm believer that my family must be my first missionary work. And if there be any who do not understand or disagree with my absence, also I send my apologies for causing you any hardship.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri

The flock at home comes before the flock on the internet. I need to be reminded of that sometimes.

Just a quick thought before I get busy.

I don't recall that scripture says much about the Messiah's diet and I haven't thought to look into it in the past. I suppose I assumed he ate fish. Maybe a "Mediterranean type diet".

The Scriptures gave instruction for the diet of some that had a special work to do. I would expect there to have been some special instruction given for Savior's diet as well as his Mother. As I said I really haven't looked into it, but I don't recall any.