Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment

Posted By: Green Cochoa

Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/28/13 06:24 AM

According to Dr. Mercola, 26 of 54 vegans got a "brain-destroying" deficiency of vitamin B12. Read the article HERE.

In that article, Dr. Mercola points out the following:
Originally Posted By: Dr. Mercola
This is why vitamin B12 deficiency is extremely common in strict vegetarians and vegans, but many are unaware there's a problem until it's too late. Even though vitamin B12 is water-soluble, it doesn't exit your body quickly in your urine like other water-soluble vitamins. Instead, B12 is stored in your liver, kidneys and other body tissues, and as a result, a deficiency may not show itself for a number of years.

This is a serious concern, because after about seven years of B12 deficiency, irreversible brain damage and other problems can result. (The exception is infants and children, in which extensive B12 reserves have not yet been established, so deficiency signs and symptoms tend to become apparent more rapidly.)


"Irreversible brain damage" is the result of prolonged vitamin B12 deficiency.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/28/13 08:28 AM

You really want to use Mercola as your gold standard? You might want to rethink that.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/28/13 09:40 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
You really want to use Mercola as your gold standard? You might want to rethink that.

Skip the ad hominem and address the issues, please. Those with the truth on their side need not resort to such tactics as this. Have you any factual reason to disagree?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/28/13 12:19 PM

Brought in from another thread...
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
doctrine of dispensing with milk and eggs should not be taught.
Originally Posted By: EGW
The diet reform should be progressive. As disease in animals increases, the use of milk and eggs will become more and more unsafe. An effort should be made to supply their place with other things that are healthful and inexpensive. The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable. {MH 320.2}

APL,

I know whereof I speak. You cannot hope to contradict what I just said, for it is perfectly true. I even think you have seen the statements yourself, but are choosing not to consider them, and are here putting forward a good quote that appears to support another side, when taken alone. The writings of Mrs. White, however, are more balanced than you would make them appear by it.

Mrs. White did tell us to teach others how to cook without milk and eggs. That is so that they will be able to cook without them when this step is required. However, she never required dispensing with them. Surely, you have seen this following quote before, haven't you?

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
We appreciate your experience as a physician, and yet I say that milk and eggs should be included in your diet. These things cannot at present be dispensed with, and the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught. {TSDF 49.1}

You are in danger of taking too radical a view of health reform, and of prescribing for yourself a diet that will not sustain you. {TSDF 49.2}

I do hope that you will heed the words I have spoken to you. It has been presented to me that you will not be able to exert the most successful influence in health reform unless in some things you become more liberal to yourself and to others. The time will come when milk can not be used as freely as it is now used; but the present time is not the time to discard it. And eggs contain properties which are remedial agencies in counteracting poisons. And while warnings have been given against the use of these articles of diet in families where the children were addicted to, yes, steeped, in habits of self abuse; yet we should not consider it a denial of principle to use eggs of hens which are well cared for and suitably fed. {TSDF 49.3}

God calls upon those for whom Christ died to take proper care of themselves, and set a right example to others. My brother, you are not to make a test for the people of God upon the question of diet; for they will lose confidence in teachings that are strained to the farthest point of extension. The Lord desires His people to be sound on every point in health reform, but we must not go to extremes. {TSDF 49.4}


APL, as you claim to be a health professional, I believe that quote applies every bit as much to you. It appears, however, that you are an extremist.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/28/13 03:58 PM

Quote: use eggs of hens which are well cared for and suitably fed.

Where do you get your eggs? Do you grow them yourself? Or do you buy them in the market where most are grown in poor conditions? Do you follow this advise yourself?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/28/13 04:07 PM

Originally Posted By: NHS
Vitamin B12 and folate

Vitamin B12 and folate work together to help the body produce red blood cells. They also have several other important functions:

vitamin B12 helps to keep the nervous system (brain, nerves and spinal cord) healthy

folate is important for pregnant women because it reduces the risk of birth defects in unborn babies

Vitamin B12 is found in:
  • meat
  • eggs
  • dairy products

The best source of folate is green vegetables such as:
  • broccoli
  • Brussel sprouts
  • peas

Treating vitamin B12 deficiency anaemia

Most cases of vitamin B12 and folate deficiency are easily treated.

Supplements of vitamin B12 are usually given by injection at first, followed by tablets until the deficiency is under control. In cases where there are problems absorbing vitamin B12, such as in pernicious anaemia, you will need supplements for the rest of your life.

Folic acid tablets are used to restore folate levels, which usually need to be taken for four months.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/28/13 04:09 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Quote: use eggs of hens which are well cared for and suitably fed.

Where do you get your eggs? Do you grow them yourself? Or do you buy them in the market where most are grown in poor conditions? Do you follow this advise yourself?

I do. Most of the hens around here are quite free range. There are no fences, and there are plenty of dogs. The dogs rarely bother them.

Last year I raised over five dozen hens. smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/28/13 04:13 PM

Here's the quote from the National Institutes of Health that speaks of brain damage caused by B12 deficiency.

Originally Posted By: NIH
Taking large amounts of folic acid might hide a vitamin B12 deficiency. Folic acid can correct the anemia but not the nerve damage caused by vitamin B12 deficiency. This can lead to permanent damage of the brain, spinal cord, and nerves. High doses of folic acid might also increase the risk of colorectal cancer and possibly other cancers in some people.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/28/13 04:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
You really want to use Mercola as your gold standard? You might want to rethink that.

Skip the ad hominem and address the issues, please. Those with the truth on their side need not resort to such tactics as this. Have you any factual reason to disagree?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Mercola advocates the paleo diet. Your link does not present any science to back up the claim. It does have Mercola's "my observation and belief". If I choose not to listen to the devil, would that be an ad hominem attack?

Some people may become B12 deficient. And they don't have to be just vegans! For the majority, it is not hard to prevent.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/28/13 05:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Quote: use eggs of hens which are well cared for and suitably fed.

Where do you get your eggs? Do you grow them yourself? Or do you buy them in the market where most are grown in poor conditions? Do you follow this advise yourself?

I do. Most of the hens around here are quite free range. There are no fences, and there are plenty of dogs. The dogs rarely bother them.

Last year I raised over five dozen hens. smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Good for you! Now, let's say you move back to the U.S. What would you recommend the city dweller to do?

You do acknowledge that EGW said that there are certain people that should not eat eggs, right? Of course, this whole line of talk have been covered before.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/28/13 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I know whereof I speak.
Yeah?

How about the title you gave this thread?
Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment

Realizing you aren't one for facts or accuracy, did you really intend to make that statement or was that another err?

That is, you are stating all vegans do have cognitive impairment. Can you support that? Or will you admit you erred when you put that title?


Quote:
Mrs. White did tell us to teach others how to cook without milk and eggs. That is so that they will be able to cook without them when this step is required. However, she never required dispensing with them.
That is over the top.

Here you are saying that Ellen White instructed us to teach others how to cook without milk and eggs because it would be required for some future time. Which hasn't got here in over 100 years!

If you wish to support such an idea, you need to show elsewhere where Ellen White has told people to teach others how to do something, and definitely not that they were to do that something, but just in case they would need it at some future time.

Can you?
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/28/13 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Quote:
And eggs contain properties which are remedial agencies in counteracting poisons. And while warnings have been given against the use of these articles of diet in families where the children were addicted to, yes, steeped, in habits of self abuse; yet we should not consider it a denial of principle to use eggs of hens which are well cared for and suitably fed. {TSDF 49.3}
Since you highlighted that, would you mean that eggs are to be used medicinally? How often are you poisoned?
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/28/13 07:09 PM

Ooo, ooo, ooo. I just saw it!

Originally Posted By: green
doctrine of dispensing with milk and eggs should not be taught.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The diet reform should be progressive. As disease in animals increases, the use of milk and eggs will become more and more unsafe. An effort should be made to supply their place with other things that are healthful and inexpensive. The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable. {MH 320.2}

Originally Posted By: green

Mrs. White did tell us to teach others how to cook without milk and eggs. That is so that they will be able to cook without them when this step is required.
  • The doctrine dispensing with milk and eggs should not be taught because it should be taught to others.

Should someone make a compilation of these "writings"?
Posted By: shellybee

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/28/13 09:47 PM

Anyone seriously questioning the place of eggs in their diet should visit a cage-laying poultry farm and see for themselves if they really want to eat eggs coming from this source in order to get adequate Vitamine B12. If they can't raise their own healthy hens and can't locate a source of free-range eggs near where they live, then the time may have actually come where we need to learn how to prepare food that does not include eggs, as Ellen White said would become a necessity.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/29/13 05:01 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Good for you! Now, let's say you move back to the U.S. What would you recommend the city dweller to do?

You do acknowledge that EGW said that there are certain people that should not eat eggs, right? Of course, this whole line of talk have been covered before.


The instruction we are given is to get eggs from healthy fowl. We are not commanded to raise the hens ourselves. If one lives in the city, perhaps a friend with a farm can be found from which to obtain the eggs. There are, nowadays, organically-grown, vegetarian-fed, "free-range" hens whose eggs are on the market at health-food stores and others. I put free-range in quotes because I believe it is not quite the same as the completely "open-range" which many chickens have where I live. Yet they are not merely cooped up in a cage just big enough for shipping a dog overseas to be fed, watered, and lay eggs all day as in the typical poultry houses.

If I lived in the city, and could not obtain farm-fresh eggs, I would spend the extra money for these eggs.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/29/13 05:02 AM

APL,

I am not aware of any statement from Mrs. White's pen forbidding anyone to eat eggs. Please enlighten us with what you have found.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/29/13 05:07 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I know whereof I speak.
Yeah?

How about the title you gave this thread?
Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment

Realizing you aren't one for facts or accuracy, did you really intend to make that statement or was that another err?

That is, you are stating all vegans do have cognitive impairment. Can you support that? Or will you admit you erred when you put that title?


Quote:
Mrs. White did tell us to teach others how to cook without milk and eggs. That is so that they will be able to cook without them when this step is required. However, she never required dispensing with them.
That is over the top.

Here you are saying that Ellen White instructed us to teach others how to cook without milk and eggs because it would be required for some future time. Which hasn't got here in over 100 years!

If you wish to support such an idea, you need to show elsewhere where Ellen White has told people to teach others how to do something, and definitely not that they were to do that something, but just in case they would need it at some future time.

Can you?

kland,

I did almost create a longer thread title, but it was already getting too long, so I shortened it to the key words. This is permissible in a title, and should not be mistaken with a full meaning. For example, had I started a thread with the title "Why Adventists live longer," would you have complained? But do ALL Adventists live longer? Of course not. Many ordinary people see titles like this every day in the news, and no one complains at their brevity or their lack of accuracy on account of it. They look for the details, however, to be included in the article which follows. The title is just a few words to give an idea of what the article is about.

I'm sure you are mature enough to realize these things.

As for the second half of your post, it appears you have since realized where you went astray as you read additional information here which clarified the matter, so I will not address this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/29/13 05:17 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Quote:
And eggs contain properties which are remedial agencies in counteracting poisons. And while warnings have been given against the use of these articles of diet in families where the children were addicted to, yes, steeped, in habits of self abuse; yet we should not consider it a denial of principle to use eggs of hens which are well cared for and suitably fed. {TSDF 49.3}
Since you highlighted that, would you mean that eggs are to be used medicinally? How often are you poisoned?

I am poisoned daily. How often are you poisoned?

I live where people use cars, smoke, use pesticides and herbicides and spray for mosquitoes. I live where streams of water are so polluted that fish often cannot survive in them. I live where litter lines the roads and garbage fouls the air with its smell. I live where the well water has toxins in it.

I have experienced toxicity. I strongly recommend to missionaries in my part of the world that they consume eggs to counteract the toxins that are so prevalent here. It is either that, or they will weaken in health under the conditions.

But is America so much better? I understand you have even greater problems there with things like GMO foods (becoming virtually all produce these days that is genetically modified--and it is toxic stuff).

For folk like us, Mrs. White wrote the following:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
While working against gluttony and intemperance, we are to remember the means and appliances of gospel truth, which commend themselves to sound judgment. In order to do our work in straight, simple lines, we must recognize the conditions to which the human family are subjected. God has made provisions for those who live in the different countries of the world. Those who desire to be co-workers with God must consider carefully how they teach health reform in God's great vineyard. They must move carefully in specifying just what food should and should not be eaten. ...{TSDF 49.6}

We are to be brought into connection with the masses. Should health reform be taught them in its most extreme form, harm would be done. We ask them to leave off eating meat and drinking tea and coffee. That is well. But some say that milk also should be given up. This is a subject that needs to be carefully handled. There are poor families whose diet consists of bread and milk, and, if they can get it, a little fruit. All flesh food should be discarded, but vegetables should be made palatable with a little milk or cream or something equivalent. The poor say, when health reform is presented to them. "What shall we eat? We cannot afford to buy the nut foods." As I preach the gospel to the poor, I am instructed to tell them to eat that food which is most nourishing. I cannot say to them: You must not eat eggs or milk, or cream; you must use no butter in the preparation of food. The gospel must be preached to the poor, and the time has not yet come to prescribe the strictest diet. {TSDF 49.7}

The time will come when we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs; but my message is that you must not bring yourself to a time of trouble beforehand, and thus afflict yourself with death. Wait till the Lord prepares the way before you. {TSDF 49.8}



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/29/13 05:32 AM

Originally Posted By: shellybee
Anyone seriously questioning the place of eggs in their diet should visit a cage-laying poultry farm and see for themselves if they really want to eat eggs coming from this source in order to get adequate Vitamine B12. If they can't raise their own healthy hens and can't locate a source of free-range eggs near where they live, then the time may have actually come where we need to learn how to prepare food that does not include eggs, as Ellen White said would become a necessity.

You are right. Those eggs should not be consumed. Ellen White told us to get the eggs of healthy hens.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Do not go to extremes in regard to the health reform. Some of our people are very careless in regard to health reform. But because some are far behind, you must not, in order to be an example to them, be an extremist. You must not deprive yourself of that class of food which makes good blood. Your devotion to true principles is leading you to submit yourself to a diet which is giving you an experience that will not recommend health reform. This is your danger. When you see that you are becoming weak physically, it is essential for you to make changes, and at once. Put into your diet something you have left out. It is your duty to do this. Get eggs of healthy fowls. Use these eggs cooked or raw. Drop them uncooked into the best unfermented wine you can find. This will supply that which is necessary to your system. Do not for a moment suppose that it will not be right to do this. . . . {TSDF 40.4}


That statement also notes that the giving up of milk and eggs is an extremist position, according to Mrs. White.

Mrs. White says it is "right" to eat eggs, and that we are NOT to think otherwise. Why do we, then, disregard this and think we are closer to heaven if we give them up and the sooner the better?

If we can get eggs from healthy hens, we are without excuse.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/29/13 07:11 AM

Here's an article on this topic by Jack Norris, RD in which he answers some false claims about veganism. Notice the references to "permanent neurological damage" and "permanent brain damage." (All formatting in the quote is original.)

Originally Posted By: Jack Norris, RD

On Saturday, August 21, NaturalNews.com published an article by Cindy Jones-Shoeman, Vegan Vitamin B12 Deficiency is a Myth.

The article starts out by saying that “nothing could be further from the truth” than the idea that vegans can suffer a B12 deficiency from their diet.

The article by Jones-Shoeman appears to be a rehashing of an old article (apparently from 2004 or earlier) by Vivian Vetrano, “Rethinking & Clarifying the Vitamin B12 Issue” which appears on the Rest of Your Life Retreat website: roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html.

Although Vetrano’s article is one of the most fanciful stories I’ve ever read about vitamin B12, it is rather detailed and I will only respond to the excerpts from the Jones-Shoeman article:

“According to Dr. Vivian V. Vetrano, vitamin B12 actually comes from coenzymes, which are already present in bacteria found on the human body (in and around the mouth, for example).”

Vitamin B12 does not come from co-enzymes, it is a co-enzyme. Bacteria do produce vitamin B12, but there is no proof that bacteria living in most people’s mouths produce active vitamin B12 or produce it in amounts large enough that it could prevent B12 deficiency. This is underlined by the fact that many vegans develop full-blown vitamin B12 deficiency, and in some cases permanent neurological damage, as can be seen here: VeganHealth.org/b12/cases. In addition to those cases in the scientific journals, I have known many people who have suffered from B12 deficiency and cured it by supplementing with cyanocobalamin (the most stable form of vitamin B12).

About a dozen studies have correlated low vitamin B12 levels in vegans with elevated homocysteine levels. Elevated homocysteine levels have been linked to early death, primarily from cardiovascular disease, and Alzheimer’s Disease. More details on that are at VeganHealth.org/b12/hcy.

“In fact, vitamin B12 deficiency is often, according to Dr. Vetrano, a symptom of a larger problem; that is, it’s not caused from a poor diet but rather from deficiency diseases…”

While it is true that about 2% of the population has trouble absorbing vitamin B12, the vast majority of problems that have been seen in vegans have been caused by a low B12 intake, not from absorption problems.

“Vitamin B12 deficiency due to a vegan diet is simply a lie that finally needs to be put to rest.”

Unfortunately, this could not be further from the truth. The most common, serious damage that results from vitamin B12 deficiency is when a pregnant vegan who does not supplement has a baby who also does not get any B12 supplementation. Typically, around 6 months of age, the infant’s growth and neurological development ceases and then begins to regress. In many cases, such infants have sustained permanent brain damage.

Vitamin B12 deficiency among vegans is real and is not something to be flippant about. It is so important that a number of vegan health professionals and organizations have endorsed an open letter to the vegan community, What Every Vegan Should Know about Vitamin B12 (VeganHealth.org/articles/everyvegan). This letter has been signed by The Vegan Society (UK), Vegan Outreach, and many members of the International Vegetarian Union science group.




Who is Jack Norris?
Quote:
Jack Norris is a Registered Dietitian and President and co-founder of Vegan Outreach. Vegan Outreach produces Why Vegan and other booklets and their Adopt a College program hands booklets to over 750,000 students every semester. In 2005, Jack was elected to the Animal Rights Hall of Fame.

Along with Ginny Messina, MS RD, Jack has written the book Vegan For Life: Everything You Need to Know to Be Healthy and Fit on a Plant-Based Diet.

Jack writes a nutrition blog at JackNorrisRD.com. He is the author of Vitamin B12: Are You Getting It? and maintains VeganHealth.org. Jack earned a degree in Nutrition and Dietetics from Life University (Marietta, GA) in 2000 and finished his dietetic internship at Georgia State University in 2001.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/29/13 07:41 AM

Make no mistake: vitamin B12 is important. But so is keeping our perspective, given the millions who are crippled and die from the onslaught of chronic disease that could be prevented, stopped, and reversed with a B12-fortified, plant-based diet.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/29/13 10:05 AM

Indeed. There are also many people damaged, brain damaged even, from B12 deficiency. As I see it, the devil would far rather damage our brains than to damage our kidneys. If he can damage our minds, he can affect our choices. Our choices affect our eternal destiny.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/29/13 04:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I did almost create a longer thread title, but it was already getting too long, so I shortened it to the key words. This is permissible in a title, and should not be mistaken with a full meaning.
I guess we need to thank you for saving the space of the word "may" or "could".
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/30/13 06:55 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I did almost create a longer thread title, but it was already getting too long, so I shortened it to the key words. This is permissible in a title, and should not be mistaken with a full meaning.
I guess we need to thank you for saving the space of the word "may" or "could".


I might have used the word "many," not "may." But while we are on the subject of "may," this is one word that many Adventist vegans likely misunderstand.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The time will come when we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs; but it is not necessary to bring upon ourselves perplexity by premature and extreme restrictions. Wait until the circumstances demand it and the Lord prepares the way for it. {CCh 237.6}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/30/13 07:20 AM

From: http://drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm

Vitamin B12 Deficiency—the Meat-eaters’ Last Stand

Defending eating habits seems to be a primal instinct for people.  These days Westerners are running out of excuses for their gluttony.  Well-read people no longer believe meat is necessary to meet our protein needs or that milk is the favored source of calcium.  With the crumbling of these two time-honored battle fronts the vitamin B12 issue has become the trendy topic whenever a strict vegetarian (vegan) diet is discussed.  Since the usual dietary source of vitamin B12 for omnivores is the flesh of other animals, the obvious conclusion is that those who choose to avoid eating meat are destined to become B12 deficient. There is a grain of truth in this concern, but in reality an otherwise healthy strict vegetarian’s risk of developing a disease from B12 deficiency by following a sensible diet is extremely rare—less than one chance in a million.

I knew forty years ago that vitamin B12 would become the last bastion for meat- and dairy-lovers (and the industries that profit from them), because this is the only criticism with any merit that could be lodged against the McDougall Diet.  In order to avoid that condemnation and the small risk of harming anyone, I have recommended and printed in the beginning of my books and DVDs the following advice:
If you follow the McDougall Diet for more than 3 years, or if you are pregnant or nursing, then take a minimum of 5 micrograms of supplemental vitamin B12 each day.
Avoid B12 Deficiency; Get Heart Disease and Cance
r

Vitamin B12 is involved in the metabolism of all cells in the body; but the effects of deficiencies are first seen in the blood and then the nervous system.  An anemia, called megaloblastic anemia, because it is characterized by large red blood cells, is a common manifestation of deficiency. The low red blood cell count is very well tolerated by the patient even when severe, and is always cured by the taking of small amounts of B12.  Mild problems with the nervous system characterized by numbness and tingling in the hands and feet also develop.  These sensations are reversible in early stages; however, damage to the nervous system can become much more severe and irreversible after prolonged deficiency. 

Take a moment to compare the possible consequences of your dietary decisions. You could choose to eat lots of B12-rich animal foods and avoid the one-in-a-million chance of developing a reversible anemia and/or even less common, damage to your nervous system.  However, this decision puts you at a one-in-two chance of dying prematurely from a heart attack or stroke; a one-in-seven chance of breast cancer or a one-in-six chance of prostate cancer.  The same thinking results in obesity, diabetes, osteoporosis, constipation, indigestion, and arthritis.  All these conditions caused by a B12-sufficient diet are found in the people you live and work with daily.  How many vegans have you met with B12 deficiency anemia or nervous system damage? I bet not one!  Furthermore, you have never even heard of such a problem unless you have read the attention-seeking headlines of newspapers or medical journals. 

Sensationalism Surrounds B12-Deficient Vegetarian
s

Rare cases of B-12 deficiency suspected to be caused by following a vegetarian diet make media-selling banners, because “people love to hear good news about their bad habits.”  However, in depth research reveals that many of these “vegetarians” also suffer from generalized malnutrition—not just isolated B12 deficiency from a diet based on plant foods.  For example, the March 23, 2000 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine published a letter (not a scientific article) with the provocative title, “Blindness in a Strict Vegan.1 The letter described a 33-year old man who was found to have severe loss of vision (bilateral optic neuropathy). He had started a strict vegetarian diet at age 20. Tests showed he suffered from deficiencies of vitamins A, C, D, E, B1, B12 and folic acid, as well as zinc and selenium.  All combined, these deficiencies clearly indicate severe malnutrition.  B12 injections corrected his anemia, but not his visual loss.

Do you see the disconnection between the case history and the headlines?  Starches, vegetables, and fruits are very rich sources of folic acid and vitamin C (as well as A, E, B1, zinc and selenium).  His malnourished condition most likely was caused by an intestinal disease and/or an unhealthy “vegetarian” diet.2  The headlines published worldwide that followed this letter reassured meat- and dairy-lovers that becoming a vegetarian was an unwise decision.  Examination of many reported cases of B12 deficiency connected to a vegetarian diet in both children and adults reveals similar confounding factors.1-6 The patients may have subtle malabsorption and often come from conditions of poverty and/or live an eccentric lifestyle—their health problems are not simply due to avoiding animal foods.  However, I do believe there are very rare patients with diseases due to lack of B12 from following a strict vegetarian diet for years—while others have disagreed with me and believe that all cases have confounding factors.

Germs for Good Healt
h

Although vitamin B12 is found in animal foods it is not synthesized by plants or animals.  Only bacteria make biologically active vitamin B12—animal tissues store “bacteria-synthesized B12,” which can then be passed along the food chain by animals eating another animal’s tissues. Ruminants (like cows, goats, sheep, giraffes, llamas, buffalo, and deer) are unique in that bacteria in their rumens (stomachs) synthesize vitamin B12, which is then passed down and absorbed by their small intestines.  Lions and tigers get their B12 from eating these grazers.

The human gut also contains B12-synthesizing bacteria, living from the mouth to the anus.8  The presence of these bacteria is an important reason that disease from vitamin B12 deficiency occurs very rarely in people, even those who have been strict vegetarians (vegans) all of their lives.   The colon contains the greatest number of bacteria (4 trillion/cc of feces), and here most of our intestinal B12 is produced.  However, because B12 is absorbed in the ileum, which lies upstream of the colon, this plentiful source of B12 is not immediately available for absorption—unless people eat feces (don’t gasp). Feces of cows, chickens, sheep and people contain large amounts of active B12.  Until recently most people lived in close contact with their farm animals, and all people consumed B12 left as residues by bacteria living on their un-sanitized vegetable foods.

Why would a plant-food-based diet, heralded as a preventative and cure for our most common chronic diseases be deficient in any way?  Such a diet appears to be the proper, intended, diet for humans, except for this one blemish.  The reason for this apparent inconsistency is we now live in unnatural conditions—our surroundings have been sanitized by fanatical washing, powerful cleansers, antiseptics, and antibiotics.  Since the germ theory of disease was developed by Louis Pasteur in 1877 our society has waged an all-out war on these tiny creatures—most of them extremely beneficial with only a very few acting as pathogens.  The rare case of B12 deficiency may be one important consequence of too much cleanliness.

Efficiency Is the Other Reason Deficiency Is Rar
e

The human body has evolved with highly efficient and unique mechanisms to absorb, utilize, and conserve this vitamin.  Our daily requirement is less than 3 micrograms a day—one microgram is one-millionth of a gram (1/1,000,000 gram).9 Which means, by design, people are expected to be exposed to only miniscule amounts of this essential nutrient. 

Vitamin B12 is the only nutrient that requires a cofactor for efficient absorption.  The cells of the stomach produce a substance, called intrinsic factor, which combines—after the acidic digestion of the food in the stomach—with the B12 released from food.  This “intrinsic factor-B12 complex” then travels to the end of the small intestine (the ileum) where it is actively absorbed. 

There is a second, much less efficient process, called “the passive absorption of B12” which also occurs in the intestine.  This mechanism does not use intrinsic factor and as a result it is 1/1000 as efficient. But by consuming very large doses of oral B12, passive absorption will correct B12 deficiency even for patients with diseases of the stomach and small intestine.

On average, for someone raised on the Western diet, about 2 to 5 milligrams of B12 are stored, mostly in the liver.  This means most people have at least a three year reserve of this vital nutrient. Conservation of B12 by the body boosts the time this supply lasts by 10-fold. After excretion through the bile into the intestines most of the B12 is reabsorbed by the ileum for future use. As a result of this recirculation it actually takes, on average, 20 to 30 years to become deficient after becoming a strict vegan. That is if no vitamin B12 were consumed—which is impossible, even on a strict vegan diet, because of bacterial sources of B12 from the person’s bowel, contaminated vegetable foods, and the environment. 

There is evidence that suggests that during pregnancy and nursing a mother is more dependent on B12 from her diet, because B12 stored in the woman’s body is less available for the baby.10  Therefore, during these important times, B12 supplementation should be used by a vegan mother.

Biochemical Changes Occur with Low B1
2

Blood levels of B12 can be measured directly in the blood and are a means to help diagnose deficiency.  Values above 150 pg/ml (picograms per milliliter) are considered normal, and levels below 80 pg/ml represent unequivocal B12 deficiency.11

Within the body, biochemical reactions require B12. A deficiency can cause an interruption of normal metabolism and result in the accumulation of substances like methylmalonic acid and the amino acid, homocysteine.  Tests showing increases in these metabolic products are used to diagnose “early B12 deficiency”—before any actual disease occurs.

Elevated homocysteine has been associated with an increased risk of common Western diseases (heart attacks, strokes, etc.).  However, this amino acid itself does not cause disease—it serves as a marker for identifying people who consume large amounts of animal foods.  Eating meat, poultry, fish, and cheese raises levels of homocysteine—as well as these same foods making people fat and sick.  Efforts to lower homocysteine with supplements of folic acid and/or B12 have produced no reduction in heart disease or stroke12—and in fact the use of folic acid supplements increases the risk of cancer, heart disease, and overall death.1

The long-term consequences of B-12 supplementation are unknown; so far this vitamin appears to be non-toxic and beneficial. As a result, I currently have no hesitation recommending supplements to strict vegetarians in order to prevent the rare chance of a deficiency occuring.

Intestinal Diseases, Not Dietary Deficiency, Cause Most B12 Problem
s

Almost all cases of vitamin B12 deficiency seen in patients today and in the past are due to diseases of the intestine, and are not due to a lack of B12 in their diet.  Damage to the stomach (parietal cells) usually from an autoimmune disease or surgery halts the production of intrinsic factor.  Damage to the ileum, preventing reabsorption and interrupting recirculation, causes the loss of B12. Over a period of 3 to 6 years the body’s stores of vitamin B12 are depleted.  The disease that results is called pernicious anemia.  (The word pernicious refers to a tendency to cause death or serious injury.) Prior to the development of a treatment with liver extracts in 1926 this condition was fatal.14-15

Sources of Vitamin B1
2

As little as 0.3 to 0.65 micrograms per day of vitamin B12 has cured people of megaloblastic anemia;9however, to add an extra margin of safety I have recommended a higher dosage of 5 micrograms per day. You may be surprised to discover that you cannot purchase these tiny dosages. Supplements sold contain 500 to 5000 micrograms per pill.  These exaggerated concentrations will correct by passive absorption B12 deficiency caused by disease of the intestine.16-17 Everyone else is being overdosed by a factor of 1000. If you are an otherwise healthy vegan and are using typical dosages of B12 (500 micrograms or more per pill), a weekly dose of this vitamin will be more than sufficient.

You will often find B12 sold under its proper name. Because vitamin B12 contains one molecule of the mineral cobalt, the scientific name is Cobalamin. As a food additive and a supplement pill, vitamin B12 is usually found in the form cyanocobalamin. The effectiveness of this “cyanide complex” for treating neurologic problems has been questioned; therefore, other forms, such as methylcobalamin and hydroxycobalamin may be better choices for the prevention and treatment of B12-related conditions.18

Choosing a bioactive form of B12 is important. There are many B12-like substances called analogues found in food supplements, such as spirulina and other algae—these are ineffective and should not be relied upon.19  Foods fermented by bacteria, such as tempeh, and miso; as well as sea vegetables (nori), have been recommended as sources of B12.  Miso and tempeh do not contain B12.20  Nori—the dried green and purple lavers commonly used to make sushi—has been tested and found to have substantial amounts of active vitamin B12 and has been recommended a “most excellent source of vitamin B12 among edible seaweeds, especially for strict vegetarians.”20,21 (Nori obtains its B12 from symbiotic bacteria that live on it.22) However, there is still some uncertainty about nori as a reliable B12 source; therefore, I suggest if you do choose this seaweed that you should monitor your B12 levels by blood tests now, and if adequate, every 3 years.

In order to minimize your risk of any health problems, I recommend you and your family follow a diet based on starches, vegetables, and fruits.  To avoid the extremely rare chance of becoming a national headline, add a reliable B12 supplement.  By making this addition to a healthy diet you can’t go wrong, nor will you suffer from any justifiable criticism of your McDougall Diet delivered by well-meaning family and friends.

The History of B12 Deficiency from Pernicious Anemia (PA
)14-15

1824—A fatal form of anemia associated with stomach degeneration was first described by J.S. Combe of Edinburgh
.

1860—Austin Flint recognized the nutritional basis of this anemia and the degeneration of the stomach in this disease
.

1872—Biermer, in Switzerland, coined the concept of pernicious anemia (PA) based on the inevitably fatal outcome of this disorder
.

1880’s—Ehrlich added that patients with this anemia had giant peripheral blood cells, so called megaloblasts
.

1887—Lichtheim describes an association of PA and spinal cord lesions.
 

1921—Levine and Ladd reported that no stomach acid was found in patients with PA
.

1925—William Castle fed cooked ground beef to healthy young men and one hour later, removed the gastric juice which contained partly digested beef, and placed it in the stomach of patients with pernicious anemia. As a control, he gave ground beef without gastric juice to another group of patients. The experimental group responded with the production of new blood cells, but the control group did not. He postulated that some unknown, but essential, interaction between beef muscle as an extrinsic factor and normal human gastric juice as an intrinsic factor was required
.

1926—Two American physicians, Minot and Murphy, described a raw liver diet (liver therapy) that cured PA in the
 Journal of the American Medical Association.  They received the Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine in 1934 for their work.

1941—Folic acid received its name following its isolation from spinach (from the Latin ‘folium’ meaning leaf). Folic acid deficiency causes megaloblastic anemia, but not nervous system damage
.

1945—Folic acid was synthesized and found to be effective in treating all types of megaloblastic anemia, but especially those that proved refractory to liver preparations such as the megaloblastic anemia of sprue, celiac disease, pregnancy and malnutrition.
 

1948—Two independent teams in the United States and England isolated the mysterious extrinsic factor, vitamin B12, in crystalline form.
 

1955—Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin, a British chemist, elucidated the unique and complex chemical structure of this large molecule, in its cyanocobalamin form, using X-Ray crystallography. She was awarded the Nobel Prize for Chemistry in 1964
.

References
:

1) Milea D, Cassoux N, LeHoang P.  Blindness in a strict vegan. N Engl J Med. 2000 Mar 23;342(12):897-8.

2) Lavine JB.  Blindness in a vegan. N Engl J Med. 2000 Aug 24;343(8):585;

3) Carmel R.  Nutritional vitamin-B12 deficiency. Possible contributory role of subtle vitamin-B12 malabsorption. Ann Intern Med. 1978 May;88(5):647-9.

4) No authors. Vegetarian diet and vitamin B12 deficiency. Nutr Rev. 1978 Aug;36(8):243-4.

5) Avci Z, Turul T, Aysun S, Unal I. Involuntary movements and magnetic resonance imaging findings in infantile cobalamine (vitamin B12) deficiency. Pediatrics. 2003 Sep;112(3 Pt 1):684-6.

6) February 2003 McDougall Newsletter: Vegan Diet Damages Baby’s Brain – Sensationalism!http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/030200puVeganDietDamages.htm

7) Immerman AM. Vitamin B12 status on a vegetarian diet. A clinical review. World Rev Nutr Diet.1981;37:38-54.

8) Albert MJ, Mathan VI, Baker SJ. Vitamin B12 synthesis by human small intestinal bacteria. Nature. 1980 Feb 21;283(5749):781-2.

9)  Stabler SP, Allen RH. Vitamin B12 deficiency as a worldwide problem. Annu Rev Nutr. 2004;24:299-326.

10)  Koebnick C, Hoffmann I, Dagnelie PC, Heins UA, Wickramasinghe SN, Ratnayaka ID, Gruendel S, Lindemans J,  Long-term ovo-lacto vegetarian diet impairs vitamin B-12 status in pregnant women. J Nutr.2004 Dec;134(12):3319-26.

11)  Ting RZ, Szeto CC, Chan MH, Ma KK, Chow KM. Risk factors of vitamin B(12) deficiency in patients receiving metformin. Arch Intern Med. 2006 Oct 9;166(18):1975-9.

12 Wierzbicki AS. Homocysteine and cardiovascular disease: a review of the evidence. Diab Vasc Dis Res. 2007 Jun;4(2):143-50.

13. McDougall Newsletter. Folic Acid Supplements are a Health Hazard

 October 2005  http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2005nl/oct/051000folic.htm

14) Chanarin I.  Historical review: a history of pernicious anaemia. Br J Haematol. 2000 Nov;111(2):407-15.

15) Okuda K.  Discovery of vitamin B12 in the liver and its absorption factor in the stomach: a historical review. J Gastroenterol Hepatol. 1999 Apr;14(4):301-8.

16) Butler CC, Vidal-Alaball J, Cannings-John R, McCaddon A, Hood K, Papaioannou A, Mcdowell I, Goringe A.Oral vitamin B12 versus intramuscular vitamin B12 for vitamin B12 deficiency: a systematic review of randomized controlled trials. Fam Pract. 2006 Jun;23(3):279-85.

17) Vidal-Alaball J, Butler CC, Cannings-John R, Goringe A, Hood K, McCaddon A, McDowell I, Papaioannou A.  Oral vitamin B12 versus intramuscular vitamin B12 for vitamin B12 deficiency. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2005 Jul 20;(3):CD004655.

18) Freeman AG. Hydroxocobalamin versus cyanocobalamin. J R Soc Med. 1996 Nov;89(11):659.

19)  Watanabe F, Takenaka S, Kittaka-Katsura H, Ebara S, Miyamoto E. Characterization and bioavailability of vitamin B12-compounds from edible algae. J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 2002 Oct;48(5):325-31.

20) Watanabe F. Vitamin B12 sources and bioavailability. Exp Biol Med (Maywood). 2007 Nov;232(10):1266-74.

21)  Watanabe F, Takenaka S, Katsura H, Masumder SA, Abe K, Tamura Y, Nakano Y.  Dried green and purple lavers (Nori) contain substantial amounts of biologically active vitamin B(12) but less of dietary iodine relative to other edible seaweeds. J Agric Food Chem. 1999 Jun;47(6):2341-3.

22) Croft MT, Lawrence AD, Raux-Deery E, Warren MJ, Smith AG.  Algae acquire vitamin B12 through a symbiotic relationship with bacteria. Nature.

 2005 Nov 3;438(7064):90-3.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/30/13 07:27 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
From: http://drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm

Vitamin B12 Deficiency—the Meat-eaters’ Last Stand

Defending eating habits seems to be a primal instinct for people.  These days Westerners are running out of excuses for their gluttony.  Well-read people no longer believe meat is necessary to meet our protein needs or that milk is the favored source of calcium.  With the crumbling of these two time-honored battle fronts the vitamin B12 issue has become the trendy topic whenever a strict vegetarian (vegan) diet is discussed.  Since the usual dietary source of vitamin B12 for omnivores is the flesh of other animals, the obvious conclusion is that those who choose to avoid eating meat are destined to become B12 deficient. There is a grain of truth in this concern, but in reality an otherwise healthy strict vegetarian’s risk of developing a disease from B12 deficiency by following a sensible diet is extremely rare—less than one chance in a million.

I knew forty years ago that vitamin B12 would become the last bastion for meat- and dairy-lovers (and the industries that profit from them), because this is the only criticism with any merit that could be lodged against the McDougall Diet.  In order to avoid that condemnation and the small risk of harming anyone, I have recommended and printed in the beginning of my books and DVDs the following advice:
If you follow the McDougall Diet for more than 3 years, or if you are pregnant or nursing, then take a minimum of 5 micrograms of supplemental vitamin B12 each day.
Avoid B12 Deficiency; Get Heart Disease and Cance
r

Vitamin B12 is involved in the metabolism of all cells in the body; but the effects of deficiencies are first seen in the blood and then the nervous system.  An anemia, called megaloblastic anemia, because it is characterized by large red blood cells, is a common manifestation of deficiency. The low red blood cell count is very well tolerated by the patient even when severe, and is always cured by the taking of small amounts of B12.  Mild problems with the nervous system characterized by numbness and tingling in the hands and feet also develop.  These sensations are reversible in early stages; however, damage to the nervous system can become much more severe and irreversible after prolonged deficiency. 

Take a moment to compare the possible consequences of your dietary decisions. You could choose to eat lots of B12-rich animal foods and avoid the one-in-a-million chance of developing a reversible anemia and/or even less common, damage to your nervous system.  However, this decision puts you at a one-in-two chance of dying prematurely from a heart attack or stroke; a one-in-seven chance of breast cancer or a one-in-six chance of prostate cancer.  The same thinking results in obesity, diabetes, osteoporosis, constipation, indigestion, and arthritis.  All these conditions caused by a B12-sufficient diet are found in the people you live and work with daily.  How many vegans have you met with B12 deficiency anemia or nervous system damage? I bet not one!  Furthermore, you have never even heard of such a problem unless you have read the attention-seeking headlines of newspapers or medical journals. 

Sensationalism Surrounds B12-Deficient Vegetarian
s

Rare cases of B-12 deficiency suspected to be caused by following a vegetarian diet make media-selling banners, because “people love to hear good news about their bad habits.”  However, in depth research reveals that many of these “vegetarians” also suffer from generalized malnutrition—not just isolated B12 deficiency from a diet based on plant foods.  For example, the March 23, 2000 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine published a letter (not a scientific article) with the provocative title, “Blindness in a Strict Vegan.1 The letter described a 33-year old man who was found to have severe loss of vision (bilateral optic neuropathy). He had started a strict vegetarian diet at age 20. Tests showed he suffered from deficiencies of vitamins A, C, D, E, B1, B12 and folic acid, as well as zinc and selenium.  All combined, these deficiencies clearly indicate severe malnutrition.  B12 injections corrected his anemia, but not his visual loss.

Do you see the disconnection between the case history and the headlines?  Starches, vegetables, and fruits are very rich sources of folic acid and vitamin C (as well as A, E, B1, zinc and selenium).  His malnourished condition most likely was caused by an intestinal disease and/or an unhealthy “vegetarian” diet.2  The headlines published worldwide that followed this letter reassured meat- and dairy-lovers that becoming a vegetarian was an unwise decision.  Examination of many reported cases of B12 deficiency connected to a vegetarian diet in both children and adults reveals similar confounding factors.1-6 The patients may have subtle malabsorption and often come from conditions of poverty and/or live an eccentric lifestyle—their health problems are not simply due to avoiding animal foods.  However, I do believe there are very rare patients with diseases due to lack of B12 from following a strict vegetarian diet for years—while others have disagreed with me and believe that all cases have confounding factors.

Germs for Good Healt
h

Although vitamin B12 is found in animal foods it is not synthesized by plants or animals.  Only bacteria make biologically active vitamin B12—animal tissues store “bacteria-synthesized B12,” which can then be passed along the food chain by animals eating another animal’s tissues. Ruminants (like cows, goats, sheep, giraffes, llamas, buffalo, and deer) are unique in that bacteria in their rumens (stomachs) synthesize vitamin B12, which is then passed down and absorbed by their small intestines.  Lions and tigers get their B12 from eating these grazers.

The human gut also contains B12-synthesizing bacteria, living from the mouth to the anus.8  The presence of these bacteria is an important reason that disease from vitamin B12 deficiency occurs very rarely in people, even those who have been strict vegetarians (vegans) all of their lives.   The colon contains the greatest number of bacteria (4 trillion/cc of feces), and here most of our intestinal B12 is produced.  However, because B12 is absorbed in the ileum, which lies upstream of the colon, this plentiful source of B12 is not immediately available for absorption—unless people eat feces (don’t gasp). Feces of cows, chickens, sheep and people contain large amounts of active B12.  Until recently most people lived in close contact with their farm animals, and all people consumed B12 left as residues by bacteria living on their un-sanitized vegetable foods.

Why would a plant-food-based diet, heralded as a preventative and cure for our most common chronic diseases be deficient in any way?  Such a diet appears to be the proper, intended, diet for humans, except for this one blemish.  The reason for this apparent inconsistency is we now live in unnatural conditions—our surroundings have been sanitized by fanatical washing, powerful cleansers, antiseptics, and antibiotics.  Since the germ theory of disease was developed by Louis Pasteur in 1877 our society has waged an all-out war on these tiny creatures—most of them extremely beneficial with only a very few acting as pathogens.  The rare case of B12 deficiency may be one important consequence of too much cleanliness.

Efficiency Is the Other Reason Deficiency Is Rar
e

The human body has evolved with highly efficient and unique mechanisms to absorb, utilize, and conserve this vitamin.  Our daily requirement is less than 3 micrograms a day—one microgram is one-millionth of a gram (1/1,000,000 gram).9 Which means, by design, people are expected to be exposed to only miniscule amounts of this essential nutrient. 

Vitamin B12 is the only nutrient that requires a cofactor for efficient absorption.  The cells of the stomach produce a substance, called intrinsic factor, which combines—after the acidic digestion of the food in the stomach—with the B12 released from food.  This “intrinsic factor-B12 complex” then travels to the end of the small intestine (the ileum) where it is actively absorbed. 

There is a second, much less efficient process, called “the passive absorption of B12” which also occurs in the intestine.  This mechanism does not use intrinsic factor and as a result it is 1/1000 as efficient. But by consuming very large doses of oral B12, passive absorption will correct B12 deficiency even for patients with diseases of the stomach and small intestine.

On average, for someone raised on the Western diet, about 2 to 5 milligrams of B12 are stored, mostly in the liver.  This means most people have at least a three year reserve of this vital nutrient. Conservation of B12 by the body boosts the time this supply lasts by 10-fold. After excretion through the bile into the intestines most of the B12 is reabsorbed by the ileum for future use. As a result of this recirculation it actually takes, on average, 20 to 30 years to become deficient after becoming a strict vegan. That is if no vitamin B12 were consumed—which is impossible, even on a strict vegan diet, because of bacterial sources of B12 from the person’s bowel, contaminated vegetable foods, and the environment. 

There is evidence that suggests that during pregnancy and nursing a mother is more dependent on B12 from her diet, because B12 stored in the woman’s body is less available for the baby.10  Therefore, during these important times, B12 supplementation should be used by a vegan mother.

Biochemical Changes Occur with Low B1
2

Blood levels of B12 can be measured directly in the blood and are a means to help diagnose deficiency.  Values above 150 pg/ml (picograms per milliliter) are considered normal, and levels below 80 pg/ml represent unequivocal B12 deficiency.11

Within the body, biochemical reactions require B12. A deficiency can cause an interruption of normal metabolism and result in the accumulation of substances like methylmalonic acid and the amino acid, homocysteine.  Tests showing increases in these metabolic products are used to diagnose “early B12 deficiency”—before any actual disease occurs.

Elevated homocysteine has been associated with an increased risk of common Western diseases (heart attacks, strokes, etc.).  However, this amino acid itself does not cause disease—it serves as a marker for identifying people who consume large amounts of animal foods.  Eating meat, poultry, fish, and cheese raises levels of homocysteine—as well as these same foods making people fat and sick.  Efforts to lower homocysteine with supplements of folic acid and/or B12 have produced no reduction in heart disease or stroke12—and in fact the use of folic acid supplements increases the risk of cancer, heart disease, and overall death.1

The long-term consequences of B-12 supplementation are unknown; so far this vitamin appears to be non-toxic and beneficial. As a result, I currently have no hesitation recommending supplements to strict vegetarians in order to prevent the rare chance of a deficiency occuring.

Intestinal Diseases, Not Dietary Deficiency, Cause Most B12 Problem
s

Almost all cases of vitamin B12 deficiency seen in patients today and in the past are due to diseases of the intestine, and are not due to a lack of B12 in their diet.  Damage to the stomach (parietal cells) usually from an autoimmune disease or surgery halts the production of intrinsic factor.  Damage to the ileum, preventing reabsorption and interrupting recirculation, causes the loss of B12. Over a period of 3 to 6 years the body’s stores of vitamin B12 are depleted.  The disease that results is called pernicious anemia.  (The word pernicious refers to a tendency to cause death or serious injury.) Prior to the development of a treatment with liver extracts in 1926 this condition was fatal.14-15

Sources of Vitamin B1
2

As little as 0.3 to 0.65 micrograms per day of vitamin B12 has cured people of megaloblastic anemia;9however, to add an extra margin of safety I have recommended a higher dosage of 5 micrograms per day. You may be surprised to discover that you cannot purchase these tiny dosages. Supplements sold contain 500 to 5000 micrograms per pill.  These exaggerated concentrations will correct by passive absorption B12 deficiency caused by disease of the intestine.16-17 Everyone else is being overdosed by a factor of 1000. If you are an otherwise healthy vegan and are using typical dosages of B12 (500 micrograms or more per pill), a weekly dose of this vitamin will be more than sufficient.

You will often find B12 sold under its proper name. Because vitamin B12 contains one molecule of the mineral cobalt, the scientific name is Cobalamin. As a food additive and a supplement pill, vitamin B12 is usually found in the form cyanocobalamin. The effectiveness of this “cyanide complex” for treating neurologic problems has been questioned; therefore, other forms, such as methylcobalamin and hydroxycobalamin may be better choices for the prevention and treatment of B12-related conditions.18

Choosing a bioactive form of B12 is important. There are many B12-like substances called analogues found in food supplements, such as spirulina and other algae—these are ineffective and should not be relied upon.19  Foods fermented by bacteria, such as tempeh, and miso; as well as sea vegetables (nori), have been recommended as sources of B12.  Miso and tempeh do not contain B12.20  Nori—the dried green and purple lavers commonly used to make sushi—has been tested and found to have substantial amounts of active vitamin B12 and has been recommended a “most excellent source of vitamin B12 among edible seaweeds, especially for strict vegetarians.”20,21 (Nori obtains its B12 from symbiotic bacteria that live on it.22) However, there is still some uncertainty about nori as a reliable B12 source; therefore, I suggest if you do choose this seaweed that you should monitor your B12 levels by blood tests now, and if adequate, every 3 years.

In order to minimize your risk of any health problems, I recommend you and your family follow a diet based on starches, vegetables, and fruits.  To avoid the extremely rare chance of becoming a national headline, add a reliable B12 supplement.  By making this addition to a healthy diet you can’t go wrong, nor will you suffer from any justifiable criticism of your McDougall Diet delivered by well-meaning family and friends.

The History of B12 Deficiency from Pernicious Anemia (PA
)14-15

1824—A fatal form of anemia associated with stomach degeneration was first described by J.S. Combe of Edinburgh
.

1860—Austin Flint recognized the nutritional basis of this anemia and the degeneration of the stomach in this disease
.

1872—Biermer, in Switzerland, coined the concept of pernicious anemia (PA) based on the inevitably fatal outcome of this disorder
.

1880’s—Ehrlich added that patients with this anemia had giant peripheral blood cells, so called megaloblasts
.

1887—Lichtheim describes an association of PA and spinal cord lesions.
 

1921—Levine and Ladd reported that no stomach acid was found in patients with PA
.

1925—William Castle fed cooked ground beef to healthy young men and one hour later, removed the gastric juice which contained partly digested beef, and placed it in the stomach of patients with pernicious anemia. As a control, he gave ground beef without gastric juice to another group of patients. The experimental group responded with the production of new blood cells, but the control group did not. He postulated that some unknown, but essential, interaction between beef muscle as an extrinsic factor and normal human gastric juice as an intrinsic factor was required
.

1926—Two American physicians, Minot and Murphy, described a raw liver diet (liver therapy) that cured PA in the
 Journal of the American Medical Association.  They received the Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine in 1934 for their work.

1941—Folic acid received its name following its isolation from spinach (from the Latin ‘folium’ meaning leaf). Folic acid deficiency causes megaloblastic anemia, but not nervous system damage
.

1945—Folic acid was synthesized and found to be effective in treating all types of megaloblastic anemia, but especially those that proved refractory to liver preparations such as the megaloblastic anemia of sprue, celiac disease, pregnancy and malnutrition.
 

1948—Two independent teams in the United States and England isolated the mysterious extrinsic factor, vitamin B12, in crystalline form.
 

1955—Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin, a British chemist, elucidated the unique and complex chemical structure of this large molecule, in its cyanocobalamin form, using X-Ray crystallography. She was awarded the Nobel Prize for Chemistry in 1964
.

References
:

1) Milea D, Cassoux N, LeHoang P.  Blindness in a strict vegan. N Engl J Med. 2000 Mar 23;342(12):897-8.

2) Lavine JB.  Blindness in a vegan. N Engl J Med. 2000 Aug 24;343(8):585;

3) Carmel R.  Nutritional vitamin-B12 deficiency. Possible contributory role of subtle vitamin-B12 malabsorption. Ann Intern Med. 1978 May;88(5):647-9.

4) No authors. Vegetarian diet and vitamin B12 deficiency. Nutr Rev. 1978 Aug;36(8):243-4.

5) Avci Z, Turul T, Aysun S, Unal I. Involuntary movements and magnetic resonance imaging findings in infantile cobalamine (vitamin B12) deficiency. Pediatrics. 2003 Sep;112(3 Pt 1):684-6.

6) February 2003 McDougall Newsletter: Vegan Diet Damages Baby’s Brain – Sensationalism!http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/030200puVeganDietDamages.htm

7) Immerman AM. Vitamin B12 status on a vegetarian diet. A clinical review. World Rev Nutr Diet.1981;37:38-54.

8) Albert MJ, Mathan VI, Baker SJ. Vitamin B12 synthesis by human small intestinal bacteria. Nature. 1980 Feb 21;283(5749):781-2.

9)  Stabler SP, Allen RH. Vitamin B12 deficiency as a worldwide problem. Annu Rev Nutr. 2004;24:299-326.

10)  Koebnick C, Hoffmann I, Dagnelie PC, Heins UA, Wickramasinghe SN, Ratnayaka ID, Gruendel S, Lindemans J,  Long-term ovo-lacto vegetarian diet impairs vitamin B-12 status in pregnant women. J Nutr.2004 Dec;134(12):3319-26.

11)  Ting RZ, Szeto CC, Chan MH, Ma KK, Chow KM. Risk factors of vitamin B(12) deficiency in patients receiving metformin. Arch Intern Med. 2006 Oct 9;166(18):1975-9.

12 Wierzbicki AS. Homocysteine and cardiovascular disease: a review of the evidence. Diab Vasc Dis Res. 2007 Jun;4(2):143-50.

13. McDougall Newsletter. Folic Acid Supplements are a Health Hazard

 October 2005  http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2005nl/oct/051000folic.htm

14) Chanarin I.  Historical review: a history of pernicious anaemia. Br J Haematol. 2000 Nov;111(2):407-15.

15) Okuda K.  Discovery of vitamin B12 in the liver and its absorption factor in the stomach: a historical review. J Gastroenterol Hepatol. 1999 Apr;14(4):301-8.

16) Butler CC, Vidal-Alaball J, Cannings-John R, McCaddon A, Hood K, Papaioannou A, Mcdowell I, Goringe A.Oral vitamin B12 versus intramuscular vitamin B12 for vitamin B12 deficiency: a systematic review of randomized controlled trials. Fam Pract. 2006 Jun;23(3):279-85.

17) Vidal-Alaball J, Butler CC, Cannings-John R, Goringe A, Hood K, McCaddon A, McDowell I, Papaioannou A.  Oral vitamin B12 versus intramuscular vitamin B12 for vitamin B12 deficiency. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2005 Jul 20;(3):CD004655.

18) Freeman AG. Hydroxocobalamin versus cyanocobalamin. J R Soc Med. 1996 Nov;89(11):659.

19)  Watanabe F, Takenaka S, Kittaka-Katsura H, Ebara S, Miyamoto E. Characterization and bioavailability of vitamin B12-compounds from edible algae. J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 2002 Oct;48(5):325-31.

20) Watanabe F. Vitamin B12 sources and bioavailability. Exp Biol Med (Maywood). 2007 Nov;232(10):1266-74.

21)  Watanabe F, Takenaka S, Katsura H, Masumder SA, Abe K, Tamura Y, Nakano Y.  Dried green and purple lavers (Nori) contain substantial amounts of biologically active vitamin B(12) but less of dietary iodine relative to other edible seaweeds. J Agric Food Chem. 1999 Jun;47(6):2341-3.

22) Croft MT, Lawrence AD, Raux-Deery E, Warren MJ, Smith AG.  Algae acquire vitamin B12 through a symbiotic relationship with bacteria. Nature.

 2005 Nov 3;438(7064):90-3.


APL,

Do you believe the information in that article by Dr. McDougall? If there are parts of it that you disagree with, please make those clear, otherwise I shall assume that this article is fully accepted as accurate on your part. In other words, if there is anything here that you do not agree with, please address those points. I will then know better how to respond.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Gregory

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/30/13 02:54 PM

I am not intending to get deeply involved in this discussion. However smile smile

The following URL has some good information on the subject.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminB12/

You will note that it says that from 10% to 15% of people over 60 years in age have a problem. This of course includes people who eat animal products. I agree. I work in a hospital where we do most of our work in an outpatient setting. The majority of our patients are elderly. We have a large number who come to us on a regularly basis for B-12 supplementation.

I will also say: Yes, vegans may have a B-12 problem. However, this it not generally true for those vegans who are otherwise healthy and getting a good vegan diet.

It should be noted that there are a number of clinical conditions, many of which occur in the elderly, which can cause B-12 problems. E.G. Depression is one which can cause a B-12 problem.

Here is another quote:

Quote:
Vegans using adequate amounts of fortified foods or B12 supplements are much less likely to suffer from B12 deficiency than the typical meat eater. The Institute of Medicine, in setting the US recommended intakes for B12 makes this very clear. "Because 10 to 30 percent of older people may be unable to absorb naturally occurring vitamin B12, it is advisable for those older than 50 years to meet their RDA mainly by consuming foods fortified with vitamin B12 or a vitamin B12-containing supplement." Vegans should take this advice about 50 years younger, to the benefit of both themselves and the animals. B12 need never be a problem for well-informed vegans.


The bottom line, as I see it:

It is important for all people to get the proper amount of B-12. This can be a problem for vegitarians and vegans. However, informed healthy people can get enough B-12 if they work on it.

Posted By: Alpendave

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/31/13 04:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Good for you! Now, let's say you move back to the U.S. What would you recommend the city dweller to do?

You do acknowledge that EGW said that there are certain people that should not eat eggs, right? Of course, this whole line of talk have been covered before.


The instruction we are given is to get eggs from healthy fowl. We are not commanded to raise the hens ourselves. If one lives in the city, perhaps a friend with a farm can be found from which to obtain the eggs. There are, nowadays, organically-grown, vegetarian-fed, "free-range" hens whose eggs are on the market at health-food stores and others. I put free-range in quotes because I believe it is not quite the same as the completely "open-range" which many chickens have where I live. Yet they are not merely cooped up in a cage just big enough for shipping a dog overseas to be fed, watered, and lay eggs all day as in the typical poultry houses.

If I lived in the city, and could not obtain farm-fresh eggs, I would spend the extra money for these eggs.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


I tend to agree with the main gist of what Green is saying in this thread. As far as city dwellers go, B12 fortified vegan products are easier to obtain in the city. Small country stores often don't carry vegan substitutions for animal products. If you want milk from such stores, it is often going to be cows milk.

Adventists, more than others, ought to appreciate the conditional character of prophecies of future events. The organic/free range movement has bought us time as far as eggs and dairy are concerned. We shouldn't follow the idealistic example of the Adventist couple in Australia (or was it New Zealand) who killed their infant by refusing to give up the strict vegan diet in the face of the confirmed B12 deficiency in their baby.

Ellen White's views were not obstinately rigid like those of her professed adherents. And while science must be applied through sanctified reasoning, it should never be discarded for the sake of religious idealism.

Here is an interesting article about B12 and plant based diets: No B12 from plant sources

Quote:
It is true that Hindu vegans living in certain parts of India do not suffer from vitamin B12 deficiency. This has led some to conclude that plant foods do provide this vitamin. This conclusion, however, is erroneous as many small insects, their feces, eggs, larvae and/or residue, are left on the plant foods these people consume, due to non-use of pesticides and inefficient cleaning methods.

This is how these people obtain their vitamin B12. This contention is borne out by the fact that when vegan Indian Hindus later migrated to England, they came down with megaloblastic anaemia within a few years. In England, the food supply is cleaner, and insect residues are completely removed from plant foods (16)
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/31/13 01:08 PM

National Institute of Health
Dietary Supplement Fact Sheet:Vitamin B12

Vitamin B12 is a water-soluble vitamin that is naturally present in some foods, added to others, and available as a dietary supplement and a prescription medication. Vitamin B12 exists in several forms and contains the mineral cobalt [1-4], so compounds with vitamin B12 activity are collectively called "cobalamins". Methylcobalamin and 5-deoxyadenosylcobalamin are the forms of vitamin B12 that are active in human metabolism [5].

Vitamin B12 is required for proper red blood cell formation, neurological function, and DNA synthesis [1-5]. Vitamin B12 functions as a cofactor for methionine synthase and L-methylmalonyl-CoA mutase. Methionine synthase catalyzes the conversion of homocysteine to methionine [5,6]. Methionine is required for the formation of S-adenosylmethionine, a universal methyl donor for almost 100 different substrates, including DNA, RNA, hormones, proteins, and lipids. L-methylmalonyl-CoA mutase converts L-methylmalonyl-CoA to succinyl-CoA in the degradation of propionate [3,5,6], an essential biochemical reaction in fat and protein metabolism. Succinyl-CoA is also required for hemoglobin synthesis.

Vitamin B12, bound to protein in food, is released by the activity of hydrochloric acid and gastric protease in the stomach [5]. When synthetic vitamin B12 is added to fortified foods and dietary supplements, it is already in free form and, thus, does not require this separation step. Free vitamin B12 then combines with intrinsic factor, a glycoprotein secreted by the stomach's parietal cells, and the resulting complex undergoes absorption within the distal ileum by receptor-mediated endocytosis [5,7]. Approximately 56% of a 1 mcg oral dose of vitamin B12 is absorbed, but absorption decreases drastically when the capacity of intrinsic factor is exceeded (at 1–2 mcg of vitamin B12) [8].

Pernicious anemia is an autoimmune disease that affects the gastric mucosa and results in gastric atrophy. This leads to the destruction of parietal cells, achlorhydria, and failure to produce intrinsic factor, resulting in vitamin B12 malabsorption [3,5,9-11]. If pernicious anemia is left untreated, it causes vitamin B12 deficiency, leading to megaloblastic anemia and neurological disorders, even in the presence of adequate dietary intake of vitamin B12.

Vitamin B12 status is typically assessed via serum or plasma vitamin B12 levels. Values below approximately 170–250 pg/mL (120–180 picomol/L) for adults [5] indicate a vitamin B12 deficiency. However, evidence suggests that serum vitamin B12 concentrations might not accurately reflect intracellular concentrations [6]. An elevated serum homocysteine level (values >13 micromol/L) [12] might also suggest a vitamin B12 deficiency. However, this indicator has poor specificity because it is influenced by other factors, such as low vitamin B6 or folate levels [5]. Elevated methylmalonic acid levels (values >0.4 micromol/L) might be a more reliable indicator of vitamin B12 status because they indicate a metabolic change that is highly specific to vitamin B12 deficiency [5-7,12].

Recommended Intakes

Intake recommendations for vitamin B12 and other nutrients are provided in the Dietary Reference Intakes (DRIs) developed by the Food and Nutrition Board (FNB) at the Institute of Medicine (IOM) of the National Academies (formerly National Academy of Sciences) [5]. DRI is the general term for a set of reference values used for planning and assessing nutrient intakes of healthy people. These values, which vary by age and gender [5], include:

  • Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA): average daily level of intake sufficient to meet the nutrient requirements of nearly all (97%–98%) healthy individuals.
  • Adequate Intake (AI): established when evidence is insufficient to develop an RDA and is set at a level assumed to ensure nutritional adequacy.
  • Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL): maximum daily intake unlikely to cause adverse health effects [5].

Table 1 lists the current RDAs for vitamin B12 in micrograms (mcg) [5]. For infants aged 0 to 12 months, the FNB established an AI for vitamin B12 that is equivalent to the mean intake of vitamin B12 in healthy, breastfed infants.

Table 1: Recommended Dietary Allowances (RDAs) for Vitamin B12 [5]
AgeMaleFemalePregnancyLactation
0–6 months*0.4 mcg0.4 mcg  
7–12 months*0.5 mcg0.5 mcg  
1–3 years0.9 mcg 0.9 mcg  
4–8 years1.2 mcg1.2 mcg  
9–13 years1.8 mcg1.8 mcg  
14+ years2.4 mcg2.4 mcg2.6 mcg2.8 mcg

* Adequate Intake

Sources of Vitamin B12

Food
Vitamin B12 is naturally found in animal products, including fish, meat, poultry, eggs, milk, and milk products. Vitamin B12 is generally not present in plant foods, but fortified breakfast cereals are a readily available source of vitamin B12 with high bioavailability for vegetarians [5,13-15]. Some nutritional yeast products also contain vitamin B12. Fortified foods vary in formulation, so it is important to read product labels to determine which added nutrients they contain.

Several food sources of vitamin B12 are listed in Table 2.

Table 2: Selected Food Sources of Vitamin B12 [13]
FoodMicrograms (mcg)
per serving
Percent DV*
Clams, cooked, 3 ounces84.11,402
Liver, beef, cooked, 3 ounces70.71,178
Breakfast cereals, fortified with 100% of the DV for vitamin B12, 1 serving6.0100
Trout, rainbow, wild, cooked, 3 ounces5.490
Salmon, sockeye, cooked, 3 ounces4.880
Trout, rainbow, farmed, cooked, 3 ounces3.558
Tuna fish, light, canned in water, 3 ounces2.542
Cheeseburger, double patty and bun, 1 sandwich2.135
Haddock, cooked, 3 ounces1.830
Breakfast cereals, fortified with 25% of the DV for vitamin B12, 1 serving1.525
Beef, top sirloin, broiled, 3 ounces1.423
Milk, low-fat, 1 cup1.218
Yogurt, fruit, low-fat, 8 ounces1.118
Cheese, Swiss, 1 ounce0.915
Beef taco, 1 soft taco0.915
Ham, cured, roasted, 3 ounces0.610
Egg, whole, hard boiled, 1 large0.610
Chicken, breast meat, roasted, 3 ounces0.35

*DV = Daily Value. DVs were developed by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to help consumers determine the level of various nutrients in a standard serving of food in relation to their approximate requirement for it. The DV for vitamin B12 is 6.0 mcg. However, the FDA does not require food labels to list vitamin B12 content unless a food has been fortified with this nutrient. Foods providing 20% or more of the DV are considered to be high sources of a nutrient, but foods providing lower percentages of the DV also contribute to a healthful diet. The U.S. Department of Agriculture's Nutrient Database Web site [13]) lists the nutrient content of many foods and provides a comprehensive list of foods containing vitamin B12.

Dietary supplements
In dietary supplements, vitamin B12 is usually present as cyanocobalamin [5], a form that the body readily converts to the active forms methylcobalamin and 5-deoxyadenosylcobalamin. Dietary supplements can also contain methylcobalamin and other forms of vitamin B12.

Existing evidence does not suggest any differences among forms with respect to absorption or bioavailability. However the body’s ability to absorb vitamin B12 from dietary supplements is largely limited by the capacity of intrinsic factor. For example, only about 10 mcg of a 500 mcg oral supplement is actually absorbed in healthy people [8].

In addition to oral dietary supplements, vitamin B12 is available in sublingual preparations as tablets or lozenges. These preparations are frequently marketed as having superior bioavailability, although evidence suggests no difference in efficacy between oral and sublingual forms [16,17].

Prescription medications
Vitamin B12, in the form of cyanocobalamin and occasionally hydroxocobalamin, can be administered parenterally as a prescription medication, usually by intramuscular injection [12]. Parenteral administration is typically used to treat vitamin B12 deficiency caused by pernicious anemia and other conditions that result in vitamin B12 malabsorption and severe vitamin B12 deficiency [12].

Vitamin B12 is also available as a prescription medication in a gel formulation applied intranasally, a product marketed as an alternative to vitamin B12 injections that some patients might prefer [18]. This formulation appears to be effective in raising vitamin B12 blood levels [19], although it has not been thoroughly studied in clinical settings.

Vitamin B12 Intakes and Status

Most children and adults in the United States consume recommended amounts of vitamin B12, according to analyses of data from the 1988–1994 National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III) [5,20] and the 1994–1996 Continuing Survey of Food Intakes by Individuals [5]. Data from the 1999–2000 NHANES indicate that the median daily intake of vitamin B12 for the U.S. population is 3.4 mcg [21].

Some people—particularly older adults, those with pernicious anemia, and those with reduced levels of stomach acidity (hypochlorhydria or achlorhydria) or intestinal disorders—have difficulty absorbing vitamin B12 from food and, in some cases, oral supplements [22,23]. As a result, vitamin B12 deficiency is common, affecting between 1.5% and 15% of the general population [24,25]. In many of these cases, the cause of the vitamin B12 deficiency is unknown [8].

Evidence from the Framingham Offspring Study suggests that the prevalence of vitamin B12 deficiency in young adults might be greater than previously assumed [15]. This study found that the percentage of participants in three age groups (26–49 years, 50–64 years, and 65 years and older) with deficient blood levels of vitamin B12 was similar. The study also found that individuals who took a supplement containing vitamin B12 or consumed fortified cereal more than four times per week were much less likely to have a vitamin B12 deficiency.

Individuals who have trouble absorbing vitamin B12 from foods, as well as vegetarians who consume no animal foods, might benefit from vitamin B12-fortified foods, oral vitamin B12 supplements, or vitamin B12 injections [26].

Vitamin B12 Deficiency

Vitamin B12 deficiency is characterized by megaloblastic anemia, fatigue, weakness, constipation, loss of appetite, and weight loss [1,3,27]. Neurological changes, such as numbness and tingling in the hands and feet, can also occur [5,28]. Additional symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency include difficulty maintaining balance, depression, confusion, dementia, poor memory, and soreness of the mouth or tongue [29]. The neurological symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency can occur without anemia, so early diagnosis and intervention is important to avoid irreversible damage [6]. During infancy, signs of a vitamin B12 deficiency include failure to thrive, movement disorders, developmental delays, and megaloblastic anemia [30]. Many of these symptoms are general and can result from a variety of medical conditions other than vitamin B12 deficiency.

Typically, vitamin B12 deficiency is treated with vitamin B12 injections, since this method bypasses potential barriers to absorption. However, high doses of oral vitamin B12 may also be effective. The authors of a review of randomized controlled trials comparing oral with intramuscular vitamin B12 concluded that 2,000 mcg of oral vitamin B12 daily, followed by a decreased daily dose of 1,000 mcg and then 1,000 mcg weekly and finally, monthly might be as effective as intramuscular administration [24,25]. Overall, an individual patient’s ability to absorb vitamin B12 is the most important factor in determining whether vitamin B12 should be administered orally or via injection [8]. In most countries, the practice of using intramuscular vitamin B12 to treat vitamin B12 deficiency has remained unchanged [24].

Folic acid and vitamin B12
Large amounts of folic acid can mask the damaging effects of vitamin B12 deficiency by correcting the megaloblastic anemia caused by vitamin B12 deficiency [3,5] without correcting the neurological damage that also occurs [1,31]. Moreover, preliminary evidence suggests that high serum folate levels might not only mask vitamin B12 deficiency, but could also exacerbate the anemia and worsen the cognitive symptoms associated with vitamin B12 deficiency [6,11]. Permanent nerve damage can occur if vitamin B12 deficiency is not treated. For these reasons, folic acid intake from fortified food and supplements should not exceed 1,000 mcg daily in healthy adults [5].

Groups at Risk of Vitamin B12 Deficiency

The main causes of vitamin B12 deficiency include vitamin B12 malabsorption from food, pernicious anemia, postsurgical malabsorption, and dietary deficiency [12]. However, in many cases, the cause of vitamin B12 deficiency is unknown. The following groups are among those most likely to be vitamin B12 deficient.

Older adults
Atrophic gastritis, a condition affecting 10%–30% of older adults, decreases secretion of hydrochloric acid in the stomach, resulting in decreased absorption of vitamin B12 [5,11,32-36]. Decreased hydrochloric acid levels might also increase the growth of normal intestinal bacteria that use vitamin B12, further reducing the amount of vitamin B12 available to the body [37].

Individuals with atrophic gastritis are unable to absorb the vitamin B12 that is naturally present in food. Most, however, can absorb the synthetic vitamin B12 added to fortified foods and dietary supplements. As a result, the IOM recommends that adults older than 50 years obtain most of their vitamin B12 from vitamin supplements or fortified foods [5]. However, some elderly patients with atrophic gastritis require doses much higher than the RDA to avoid subclinical deficiency [38].

Individuals with pernicious anemia
Pernicious anemia, a condition that affects 1%–2% of older adults [11], is characterized by a lack of intrinsic factor. Individuals with pernicious anemia cannot properly absorb vitamin B12 in the gastrointestinal tract [3,5,9,10]. Pernicious anemia is usually treated with intramuscular vitamin B12. However, approximately 1% of oral vitamin B12 can be absorbed passively in the absence of intrinsic factor [11], suggesting that high oral doses of vitamin B12 might also be an effective treatment.

Individuals with gastrointestinal disorders
Individuals with stomach and small intestine disorders, such as celiac disease and Crohn's disease, may be unable to absorb enough vitamin B12 from food to maintain healthy body stores [12,23]. Subtly reduced cognitive function resulting from early vitamin B12 deficiency might be the only initial symptom of these intestinal disorders, followed by megaloblastic anemia and dementia.

Individuals who have had gastrointestinal surgery
Surgical procedures in the gastrointestinal tract, such as weight loss surgery or surgery to remove all or part of the stomach, often result in a loss of cells that secrete hydrochloric acid and intrinsic factor [5,39,40]. This reduces the amount of vitamin B12, particularly food-bound vitamin B12 [41], that the body releases and absorbs. Surgical removal of the distal ileum also can result in the inability to absorb vitamin B12. Individuals undergoing these surgical procedures should be monitored preoperatively and postoperatively for several nutrient deficiencies, including vitamin B12 deficiency [42].

Vegetarians
Strict vegetarians and vegans are at greater risk than lacto-ovo vegetarians and nonvegetarians of developing vitamin B12 deficiency because natural food sources of vitamin B12 are limited to animal foods [5]. Fortified breakfast cereals are one of the few sources of vitamin B12 from plants and can be used as a dietary source of vitamin B12 for strict vegetarians and vegans.

Pregnant and lactating women who follow strict vegetarian diets and their infants
Vitamin B12 crosses the placenta during pregnancy and is present in breast milk. Exclusively breastfed infants of women who consume no animal products may have very limited reserves of vitamin B12 and can develop vitamin B12 deficiency within months of birth [5,43]. Undetected and untreated vitamin B12 deficiency in infants can result in severe and permanent neurological damage.

The American Dietetic Association recommends supplemental vitamin B12 for vegans and lacto-ovo vegetarians during both pregnancy and lactation to ensure that enough vitamin B12 is transferred to the fetus and infant [44]. Pregnant and lactating women who follow strict vegetarian or vegan diets should consult with a pediatrician regarding vitamin B12 supplements for their infants and children [5].

Vitamin B12 and Health

Cardiovascular disease
Cardiovascular disease is the most common cause of death in industrialized countries, such as the United States, and is on the rise in developing countries. Risk factors for cardiovascular disease include elevated low-density lipoprotein (LDL) levels, high blood pressure, low high-density lipoprotein (HDL) levels, obesity, and diabetes [45].

Elevated homocysteine levels have also been identified as an independent risk factor for cardiovascular disease [46-48]. Homocysteine is a sulfur-containing amino acid derived from methionine that is normally present in blood. Elevated homocysteine levels are thought to promote thrombogenesis, impair endothelial vasomotor function, promote lipid peroxidation, and induce vascular smooth muscle proliferation [46,47,49]. Evidence from retrospective, cross-sectional, and prospective studies links elevated homocysteine levels with coronary heart disease and stroke [46,49-58].

Vitamin B12, folate, and vitamin B6 are involved in homocysteine metabolism. In the presence of insufficient vitamin B12, homocysteine levels can rise due to inadequate function of methionine synthase [6]. Results from several randomized controlled trials indicate that combinations of vitamin B12 and folic acid supplements with or without vitamin B6 decrease homocysteine levels in people with vascular disease or diabetes and in young adult women [59-67]. In another study, older men and women who took a multivitamin/multimineral supplement for 8 weeks experienced a significant decrease in homocysteine levels [68].

Evidence supports a role for folic acid and vitamin B12 supplements in lowering homocysteine levels, but results from several large prospective studies have not shown that these supplements decrease the risk of cardiovascular disease [48,62-67]. In the Women’s Antioxidant and Folic Acid Cardiovascular Study, women at high risk of cardiovascular disease who took daily supplements containing 1 mg vitamin B12, 2.5 mg folic acid, and 50 mg vitamin B6 for 7.3 years did not have a reduced risk of major cardiovascular events, despite lowered homocysteine levels [65]. The Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation (HOPE) 2 trial, which included 5,522 patients older than 54 years with vascular disease or diabetes, found that daily treatment with 2.5 mg folic acid, 50 mg vitamin B6, and 1 mg vitamin B12 for an average of 5 years reduced homocysteine levels and the risk of stroke but did not reduce the risk of major cardiovascular events [63]. In the Western Norway B Vitamin Intervention Trial, which included 3,096 patients undergoing coronary angiography, daily supplements of 0.4 mg vitamin B12 and 0.8 mg folic acid with or without 40 mg vitamin B6 for 1 year reduced homocysteine levels by 30% but did not affect total mortality or the risk of major cardiovascular events during 38 months of follow-up [66]. The Norwegian Vitamin (NORVIT) trial [62] and the Vitamin Intervention for Stroke Prevention trial had similar results [67].

The American Heart Association has concluded that the available evidence is inadequate to support a role for B vitamins in reducing cardiovascular risk [48].

Dementia and cognitive function
Researchers have long been interested in the potential connection between vitamin B12 deficiency and dementia [47,69]. A deficiency in vitamin B12 causes an accumulation of homocysteine in the blood [6] and might decrease levels of substances needed to metabolize neurotransmitters [70]. Observational studies show positive associations between elevated homocysteine levels and the incidence of both Alzheimer's disease and dementia [6,47,71]. Low vitamin B12 status has also been positively associated with cognitive decline [72].

Despite evidence that vitamin B12 lowers homocysteine levels and correlations between low vitamin B12 levels and cognitive decline, research has not shown that vitamin B12 has an independent effect on cognition [73-77]. In one randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial, 195 subjects aged 70 years or older with no or moderate cognitive impairment received 1,000 mcg vitamin B12, 1,000 mcg vitamin B12 plus 400 mcg folic acid, or placebo for 24 weeks [73]. Treatment with vitamin B12 plus folic acid reduced homocysteine concentrations by 36%, but neither vitamin B12 treatment nor vitamin B12 plus folic acid treatment improved cognitive function.

Women at high risk of cardiovascular disease who participated in the Women’s Antioxidant and Folic Acid Cardiovascular Study were randomly assigned to receive daily supplements containing 1 mg vitamin B12, 2.5 mg folic acid and 50 mg vitamin B6, or placebo [76]. After a mean of 1.2 years, B-vitamin supplementation did not affect mean cognitive change from baseline compared with placebo. However, in a subset of women with low baseline dietary intake of B vitamins, supplementation significantly slowed the rate of cognitive decline. In a trial conducted by the Alzheimer's Disease Cooperative Study consortium that included individuals with mild-to-moderate Alzheimer's disease, daily supplements of 1 mg vitamin B12, 5 mg folic acid, and 25 mg vitamin B6 for 18 months did not slow cognitive decline compared with placebo [77]. Another study found similar results in 142 individuals at risk of dementia who received supplements of 2 mg folic acid and 1 mg vitamin B12 for 12 weeks [75].

The authors of two Cochrane reviews and a systematic review of randomized trials of the effects of B vitamins on cognitive function concluded that insufficient evidence is available to show whether vitamin B12 alone or in combination with vitamin B6 or folic acid has an effect on cognitive function or dementia [78-80]. Additional large clinical trials of vitamin B12 supplementation are needed to assess whether vitamin B12 has a direct effect on cognitive function and dementia [6].

Energy and endurance
Due to its role in energy metabolism, vitamin B12 is frequently promoted as an energy enhancer and an athletic performance and endurance booster. These claims are based on the fact that correcting the megaloblastic anemia caused by vitamin B12 deficiency should improve the associated symptoms of fatigue and weakness. However, vitamin B12 supplementation appears to have no beneficial effect on performance in the absence of a nutritional deficit [81].

Health Risks from Excessive Vitamin B12

The IOM did not establish a UL for vitamin B12 because of its low potential for toxicity. In Dietary Reference Intakes: Thiamin, Riboflavin, Niacin, Vitamin B6, Folate, Vitamin B12, Pantothenic Acid, Biotin, and Choline, the IOM states that "no adverse effects have been associated with excess vitamin B12 intake from food and supplements in healthy individuals" [5].

Findings from intervention trials support these conclusions. In the NORVIT and HOPE 2 trials, vitamin B12 supplementation (in combination with folic acid and vitamin B6) did not cause any serious adverse events when administered at doses of 0.4 mg for 40 months (NORVIT trial) and 1.0 mg for 5 years (HOPE 2 trial) [62,63].

Interactions with Medications

Vitamin B12 has the potential to interact with certain medications. In addition, several types of medications might adversely affect vitamin B12 levels. A few examples are provided below. Individuals taking these and other medications on a regular basis should discuss their vitamin B12 status with their healthcare providers.

Chloramphenicol
Chloramphenicol (Chloromycetin®) is a bacteriostatic antibiotic. Limited evidence from case reports indicates that chloramphenicol can interfere with the red blood cell response to supplemental vitamin B12 in some patients [82].

Proton pump inhibitors
Proton pump inhibitors, such as omeprazole (Prilosec®) and lansoprazole (Prevacid®), are used to treat gastroesophageal reflux disease and peptic ulcer disease. These drugs can interfere with vitamin B12 absorption from food by slowing the release of gastric acid into the stomach [83-85]. However, the evidence is conflicting on whether proton pump inhibitor use affects vitamin B12 status [86-89]. As a precaution, health care providers should monitor vitamin B12 status in patients taking proton pump inhibitors for prolonged periods [82].

H2 receptor antagonists
Histamine H2 receptor antagonists, used to treat peptic ulcer disease, include cimetidine (Tagamet®), famotidine (Pepcid®), and ranitidine (Zantac®). These medications can interfere with the absorption of vitamin B12 from food by slowing the release of hydrochloric acid into the stomach. Although H2 receptor antagonists have the potential to cause vitamin B12 deficiency [90], no evidence indicates that they promote vitamin B12 deficiency, even after long-term use [89]. Clinically significant effects may be more likely in patients with inadequate vitamin B12 stores, especially those using H2 receptor antagonists continuously for more than 2 years [90].

Metformin
Metformin, a hypoglycemic agent used to treat diabetes, might reduce the absorption of vitamin B12 [91-93], possibly through alterations in intestinal mobility, increased bacterial overgrowth, or alterations in the calcium-dependent uptake by ileal cells of the vitamin B12-intrinsic factor complex [92,93]. Small studies and case reports suggest that 10%–30% of patients who take metformin have reduced vitamin B12 absorption [92,93]. In a randomized, placebo controlled trial in patients with type 2 diabetes, metformin treatment for 4.3 years significantly decreased vitamin B12 levels by 19% and raised the risk of vitamin B12 deficiency by 7.2% compared with placebo [94]. Some studies suggest that supplemental calcium might help improve the vitamin B12 malabsorption caused by metformin [92,93], but not all researchers agree [95].

Vitamin B12 and Healthful Diets

The federal government's 2010 Dietary Guidelines for Americans notes that "nutrients should come primarily from foods. Foods in nutrient-dense, mostly intact forms contain not only the essential vitamins and minerals that are often contained in nutrient supplements, but also dietary fiber and other naturally occurring substances that may have positive health effects. ...Dietary supplements...may be advantageous in specific situations to increase intake of a specific vitamin or mineral."

For more information about building a healthful diet, refer to the Dietary Guidelines for Americans and the U.S. Department of Agriculture's food guidance system, MyPlate.

The Dietary Guidelines for Americans describe a healthy diet as one that:

  • Emphasizes a variety of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and fat-free or low-fat milk and milk products:
    Milk and milk products are good sources of vitamin B12. Many ready-to-eat breakfast cereals are fortified with vitamin B12.
  • Includes lean meats, poultry, fish, beans, eggs, and nuts.
  • Fish and red meat are excellent sources of vitamin B12. Poultry and eggs also contain vitamin B12.
  • Is low in saturated fats, trans fats, cholesterol, salt (sodium), and added sugars.
  • Stays within your daily calorie needs.

References

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Posted By: Gregory

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/31/13 01:19 PM

Green: Good post.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 08/31/13 06:07 PM

From your NIH page:

Breakfast cereals, fortified with 25% of the DV for vitamin B12, 1 serving, 1.525 mcg.

Egg, whole, hard boiled, 1 large, 0.610 mcg.

enough said

Just the one food item comparison does not make every vegetarian brain damaged. Preventing B12 deficiency is not rocket science nor difficult. Green admitted to pernicious anemia, do you still claim that green? No about of supplementation will cure this without intrinsic factor unless the B12 is given parenterally. An unhealthy diet will lead to all kinds of things, obesity, GERD, diabetes, etc., and the medications that treat these diseases can interfere with absorption of B12. Some of the radical treatments, such as gastric bypass can play havoc with all of absorption issues. Advocates of plant based diets have good rationale and support from the Adventist health message to the reduction of most of our common western diseases. B12 is not hard to get, and focusing on this one issue is myoptic at best.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/01/13 06:38 AM

APL,

Based on the fact that you did not qualify any portion of the statement you earlier posted, after I specially invited you to do so, I will assume that you accept it in its entirety.

This being the case, you have some things to learn (or unlearn, as the case may be).

The article you posted by Dr. McDougall is inaccurate on multiple counts.

He incorrectly asserts that "The human gut also contains B12-synthesizing bacteria, living from the mouth to the anus.8 The presence of these bacteria is an important reason that disease from vitamin B12 deficiency occurs very rarely in people, even those who have been strict vegetarians (vegans) all of their lives."

In fact, there is no evidence that I have found to support such a claim. There are bacteria in the colon which produce B12, as Dr. McDougall also admits in the sentence which follows the quoted portion above, but like he says it is not absorbed. There is no evidence that bacteria on the teeth or elsewhere in the intestinal system produce B12 in sufficient supply to be an adequate source. In fact, any B12 produced in the small intestine would not have the advantage of the stomach's intrinsic factor, and would therefore not be absorbed, even if it were produced there.

I am surprised that you agree with the following statements that Dr. McDougall has made regarding folic acid, considering your "conflation" of folic acid and folate.

Originally Posted By: Dr. McDougall
Tests showed he suffered from deficiencies of vitamins A, C, D, E, B1, B12 and folic acid, as well as zinc and selenium.
...
Do you see the disconnection between the case history and the headlines? Starches, vegetables, and fruits are very rich sources of folic acid and vitamin C (as well as A, E, B1, zinc and selenium).

...

1941—Folic acid received its name following its isolation from spinach (from the Latin ‘folium’ meaning leaf). Folic acid deficiency causes megaloblastic anemia, but not nervous system damage.

1945—Folic acid was synthesized and found to be effective in treating all types of megaloblastic anemia, but especially those that proved refractory to liver preparations such as the megaloblastic anemia of sprue, celiac disease, pregnancy and malnutrition.


Regarding the seaweed sources, Dr. McDougall appears to have fallen prey to the same ignorant claims that have caught many people off guard, about which only recently scientists have learned the truth. Perhaps he is simply not up-to-date on this matter, though he does inject a bit of doubt concerning his facts.

Originally Posted By: Dr. McDougall
Choosing a bioactive form of B12 is important. There are many B12-like substances called analogues found in food supplements, such as spirulina and other algae—these are ineffective and should not be relied upon.19 Foods fermented by bacteria, such as tempeh, and miso; as well as sea vegetables (nori), have been recommended as sources of B12. Miso and tempeh do not contain B12.20 Nori—the dried green and purple lavers commonly used to make sushi—has been tested and found to have substantial amounts of active vitamin B12 and has been recommended a “most excellent source of vitamin B12 among edible seaweeds, especially for strict vegetarians.”20,21 (Nori obtains its B12 from symbiotic bacteria that live on it.22) However, there is still some uncertainty about nori as a reliable B12 source; therefore, I suggest if you do choose this seaweed that you should monitor your B12 levels by blood tests now, and if adequate, every 3 years.


There is now clear evidence that these B12 analogues actually may interfere with the absorption of real B12. In other words, vegans might be better off avoiding the seaweeds.

I will agree with the doctor's final advice to vegans. However, I would not agree with the possibility of premature death from veganism being "extremely rare." It might be rare to become a national headline over it. smile

Originally Posted By: Dr. McDougall
To avoid the extremely rare chance of becoming a national headline, add a reliable B12 supplement.


The facts are these: Vegans have the same longevity as meat eaters. Studies have proven this.

I have it on good authority from one who has connections to those involved in the study that one of the reasons the AHS-2 (Adventist Health Study #2) results have not yet been fully released is that it is not looking good for the vegans. Apparently, the vegans have begged for more time, thinking that in the end, their diet simply must come out better than it presently appears. Of course, all of us must await the moment when those results are made public. I can only hope that the statisticians have not played tricks with their data to cover up any "anomalies" to their way of thinking. Let the truth be known.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/01/13 07:54 AM

Green - you make assertions, but do not back it up with references. Unlike McDougall who gives you references, for example #8 which you say is wrong, yet, he has the reference.

Yes, I know the data AHS-2 is producing and some of the biases of those conducting the studies knowing them personally. I also know the data they are collecting is insufficient to determine all that needs to be known to make a sweeping statement that veganism in itself is the problem. Example, how became vegans because of health issues? Can AHS-2 tell us that information? Not that anyone associated with the study can confirm. There are those that have chosen that lifestyle because of health issues. There are very few life long vegans in the study. These are the people that need to be included to conclude that veganism is the way to death as you like everyone to think.

But please, eat your eggs! Be happy. But as EGW says, there are those that should not eat eggs. You make it that EVERYONE that does not eat them is in trouble. But EGW makes no such claim. She does that the SOME who give up milk, butter, and eggs fail to supply what the body needs. Some. Not all. "Some, in abstaining from milk, eggs, and butter, have failed to supply the system with proper nourishment". She does make some interesting statements, which you seem to like to ignore, "You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?"

We have quoted these all before, "Those who live in new countries or in poverty-stricken districts where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary. It is true that persons in full flesh and in whom the animal passions are strong need to avoid the use of stimulating foods. Especially in families of children who are given to sensual habits, eggs should not be used. But in the case of persons whose blood-making organs are feeble,--especially if other foods to supply the needed elements cannot be obtained,-- milk and eggs should not be wholly discarded. Great care should be taken, however, to obtain milk from healthy cows and eggs from healthy fowls, that are well fed and well cared for; and the eggs should be so cooked as to be most easily digested. {CD 365.1} "

Note - poverty makes it difficult to supply the needs, but some even then should not eat eggs. How many know the cow or the chicken where their milk comes from besides you? Not many. She continues: "The diet reform should be progressive. As disease in animals increases, the use of milk and eggs will become more and more unsafe. An effort should be made to supply their place with other things that are healthful and inexpensive. The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable. {CD 365.2}"

When should we be teaching people how to not use milk and eggs? In the future as you'd like for EVERYONE to believe? Or NOW as EGW tells us?

Finally she writes, "The question of using milk and butter and eggs will work out its own problem." I think she is right!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/01/13 09:23 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Green - you make assertions, but do not back it up with references. Unlike McDougall who gives you references, for example #8 which you say is wrong, yet, he has the reference.


Perhaps you haven't been reading others' posts. I have provided more references here than have you. References already posted here addressed those points.

Here's the abstract of that reference #8 you refer to (February 1980):
Quote:
In man, physiological amounts of vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) are absorbed by the intrinsic factor mediated mechanism exclusively in the ileum1. Human faeces contain appreciable quantities of vitamin B12 or vitamin B12-like material presumably produced by bacteria in the colon2, but this is unavailable to the non-coprophagic individual. However, the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable microflora3–6 and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy southern Indian subjects6. We now show that at least two groups of organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin.

Note the terms "may," "often," and "southern Indian subjects." In other words, their study ended in inconclusive results with a certain subject group, and that group happens to have had further research done on it which have invalidated the theory that they received B12 from the flora of their small intestine.

In this case, the credit goes to Alpendave for having already posted the evidence on this question, including a link to the article from which it was taken. I will quote it here again.
Quote:
It is true that Hindu vegans living in certain parts of India do not suffer from vitamin B12 deficiency. This has led some to conclude that plant foods do provide this vitamin. This conclusion, however, is erroneous as many small insects, their feces, eggs, larvae and/or residue, are left on the plant foods these people consume, due to non-use of pesticides and inefficient cleaning methods.

This is how these people obtain their vitamin B12. This contention is borne out by the fact that when vegan Indian Hindus later migrated to England, they came down with megaloblastic anaemia within a few years. In England, the food supply is cleaner, and insect residues are completely removed from plant foods (16)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/01/13 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: green
Note the terms "may," "often,"

Do you read medical literature often?

As to your second point, I think you have missed my comments on having one's own garden...
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/01/13 09:39 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
When should we be teaching people how to not use milk and eggs? In the future as you'd like for EVERYONE to believe? Or NOW as EGW tells us?

Speaking of references, where is your reference to this?

Hint: You won't find one. Because there isn't one.

Mrs. White tells us to teach people how to cook without milk and eggs. This is a step toward eventually giving them up when necessary. She never tells us, however, to teach people to give them up. On the contrary, she calls those, who even by their own examples are attempting to teach that we should give them up, health deformers. (She doesn't use that exact word, but here is the quote that supports the concept.)
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
I have something to say in reference to extreme views of health reform. Health reform becomes health deform, a health destroyer, when it is carried to extremes. You will not be successful in sanitariums, where the sick are treated, if you prescribe for the patients the same diet you have prescribed for yourself and your wife. I assure you that your ideas in regard to diet for the sick are not advisable. The change is too great. While I would discard flesh meat as injurious, something less objectionable may be used, and this is found in eggs. Do not remove milk from the table or forbid its being used in the cooking of food. The milk used should be procured from healthy cows, and should be sterilized. {CD 202.4}


Mrs. White expressly warned against teaching others against milk and eggs.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
We appreciate your experience as a physician, and yet I say that milk and eggs should be included in your diet. These things cannot at present be dispensed with, and the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught. {CD 204.2}


She herself used eggs up to her death in 1915.
Quote:
June 24, 1915 LATEST WORD FROM "ELMSHAVEN"

DURING THE LAST FEW WEEKS, I HAVE NOT WRITTEN TO YOU ABOUT MOTHER, BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT MUCH CHANGE FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE. SHE SEEMS TO BE SLOWLY FAILING IN STRENGTH, AND PEACEFULLY NEARING THE END OF HER LIFE. SHE SAYS FROM TIME TO TIME THAT SHE HAS NO DESIRE TO LIVE EXCEPT FOR SERVICE, AND SHE FEELS THAT HER LIFE WORK IS DONE. {PUR, June 24, 1915 par. 1}

THURSDAY, JUNE 3, SHE COULD NOT EAT; AND SINCE THEN SHE HAS BEEN ABLE TO EAT, EACH DAY, ONLY THREE RAW EGGS AND FOUR OR FIVE TEASPOONFULS OF OTHER FOOD. {PUR, June 24, 1915 par. 2}

DURING THE LAST WEEK SHE HAS NOT BEEN COMFORTABLE IN THE WHEEL-CHAIR, AND THE ONLY CHANGE OF POSITION HAS BEEN FROM THE BED TO THE BIG RECLINING CHAIR IN THE BAY WINDOW. {PUR, June 24, 1915 par. 3}


In fact, that statement shows that the bulk of her diet in the end was just eggs, about 75% of it!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/01/13 10:59 AM

Originally Posted By: green
In fact, that statement shows that the bulk of her diet in the end was just eggs, about 75% of it!
And did this change the end result? Nope.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/01/13 11:07 AM

Originally Posted By: green
Mrs. White tells us to teach people how to cook without milk and eggs. This is a step toward eventually giving them up when necessary. She never tells us, however, to teach people to give them up. On the contrary, she calls those, who even by their own examples are attempting to teach that we should give them up, health deformers. (She doesn't use that exact word, but here is the quote that supports the concept.)


What does EGW say?
Originally Posted By: EGW
Some, in abstaining from milk, eggs, and butter, have failed to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence have become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought into disrepute.
SOME - not all. Is SOME the majority? Nope. Can a healthful diet be had if one gives up eggs and milk? You say no.

In you quote in CD 204, read on. Who is EGW talking about? Hint - read on a page or two.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/01/13 11:24 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
In fact, that statement shows that the bulk of her diet in the end was just eggs, about 75% of it!
And did this change the end result? Nope.

Who ever said that eggs equaled fruits from the Tree of Life? But it is clear from her writings that she taught they are effective medicinally in a number of cases, they prolong life, and she herself never taught that "now" is the time to give them up. If she had taught this, why did she not follow her own advice?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/01/13 11:28 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
Mrs. White tells us to teach people how to cook without milk and eggs. This is a step toward eventually giving them up when necessary. She never tells us, however, to teach people to give them up. On the contrary, she calls those, who even by their own examples are attempting to teach that we should give them up, health deformers. (She doesn't use that exact word, but here is the quote that supports the concept.)


What does EGW say?
Originally Posted By: EGW
Some, in abstaining from milk, eggs, and butter, have failed to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence have become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought into disrepute.
SOME - not all. Is SOME the majority? Nope. Can a healthful diet be had if one gives up eggs and milk? You say no.

In you quote in CD 204, read on. Who is EGW talking about? Hint - read on a page or two.

Yes, "some" is the majority. She says only a very small minority can do without milk and eggs.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The time will come when we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs; but my message is that you must not bring yourself to a time of trouble beforehand, and thus afflict yourself with death. Wait till the Lord prepares the way before you. {CD 206.1}

The reforms that are strained to the highest tension might accommodate a certain class, who can obtain all they need to take the place of the things discarded; but this class forms a very small minority of the people to whom these tests seem unnecessary. There are those who try to abstain from what is declared to be harmful. They fail to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought to disrepute. The work we have tried to build up solidly is confused with strange things that God has not required. The energies of the church are crippled. {CD 206.2}


I can personally attest to the fact that the energies of the church have been crippled in my part of the world on account of this doctrine of dispensing with milk and eggs. Mrs. White rings true again.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/01/13 07:51 PM

Read the quote again. The reforms are strained to a certain class, a certain class that need the strict reforms. Most do not need this strict of a reform, that group forms a small minority. But those you don't need to same degree of change attempt it and fail because they do not do it correctly. This minority is the class the bring disrepute to health reform. That is what she is saying.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/02/13 12:26 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Read the quote again. The reforms are strained to a certain class, a certain class that need the strict reforms. Most do not need this strict of a reform, that group forms a small minority. But those you don't need to same degree of change attempt it and fail because they do not do it correctly. This minority is the class the bring disrepute to health reform. That is what she is saying.

Honestly, read your own statement here again, or have a friend read it with you. You aren't making sense to me. Your grammar is poor, and I don't catch what you are trying to communicate. If I am understanding what I think you may be trying to say, I would not see how you support it from the quote.

Here's the quote again, with my added comments this time in brackets.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The time will come when we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs; but my message is that you must not bring yourself to a time of trouble beforehand, and thus afflict yourself with death. Wait till the Lord prepares the way before you. {CD 206.1}

The reforms that are strained to the highest tension [discarding milk and eggs] might accommodate a certain class, who can obtain all they need to take the place of the things discarded; but this class forms a very small minority of the people to whom these tests seem unnecessary. There are those who try to abstain from what is declared to be harmful [note that she does not say these things are harmful, only that people say so]. They fail to supply the system with proper nourishment [obviously, those things weren't harmful after all, as they were nourishing], and as a consequence become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought to disrepute. The work we have tried to build up solidly is confused with strange things that God has not required. The energies of the church are crippled. {CD 206.2}


There is nothing in that statement that indicates to me that anyone is required to give up milk and eggs. To the contrary, she indicates that only a very small minority of the people can safely do so without apparent harm (they can be "accommodated" that way), and she further speaks of this small minority saying that these "tests" (giving up the milk and eggs) "seem unnecessary."

In other words, she is saying it is unnecessary for anyone to give up milk and eggs prematurely.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/02/13 09:06 PM

Bad grammar, one says, SOME = ALL?

The reforms are necessary for a certain class. I will agree that she is not saying everyone must give these up, nor even the majority, and she is not saying that these things are absolutely necessary as you are trying to claim. Some (not the majority) who do try to give them up, do not do so with proper consideration and suffer harm, thus giving reform a bad name. Only some will suffer. Some is not the majority.

We are to teach the people how to cook without these things. You acknowledge this. But how effects if your teaching on the subject, when you claim it is health deform, not reform? I can hear you know! :-) "Here is how you cook without milk and eggs, but it will kill you!". That would be very effective teaching...
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/03/13 07:22 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
The reforms are necessary for a certain class.

Mrs. White is not saying this. You are. You have no support for it.

Grammar is important.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/03/13 07:28 AM

"Health reform" is necessary for everyone, of course. But in that statement above, Mrs. White refers to the "highest tension" reforms, meaning giving up milk and eggs. She says it might be ok for "a very small minority" of the people, but this does not mean it is "necessary" for them. To the contrary, she says: "these tests seem unnecessary" for them.

How you get that "unnecessary" = "necessary" is a mystery to me. There's nothing like reading through opinionated glasses to find unique answers that support those opinions.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/03/13 08:00 AM

green - read the whole letter.
"While I would discard flesh meat as injurious, something less objectionable may be used, and this is found in eggs." So egss are "LESS" objectionable. Now that is an overwhelming endorsement.

"Those who take an extreme view of health reform are in danger of preparing tasteless dishes" Dishes with good taste is not hard to make. Thousands of recipes are now available.

"Brother and Sister -----, I have all confidence in you, and I greatly desire that you may have physical health, in order that you may have perfect soundness spiritually. It is the lack of suitable food that has caused you to suffer so keenly. You have not taken the food essential to nourish your frail physical strength. You must not deny yourself of good, wholesome food. {CD 203.3} " What they left out is not indicated.

"At one time Doctor ----- tried to teach our family to cook according to health reform, as he viewed it, without salt or anything else to season the food. Well, I determined to try it, but I became so reduced in strength that I had to make a change; and a different policy was entered upon with great success. I tell you this because I know that you are in positive danger. Food should be prepared in such a way that it will be nourishing. It should not be robbed of that which the system needs. {CD 203.4} " What was removed here? Seasoning!

"The Lord calls upon Brother and Sister ----- to reform, to take periods of rest. It is not right for you to take burdens as you have done in the past. Unless you take heed, you will sacrifice that life which is so precious in the sight of the Lord. "Ye are not your own; for ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." . . . {CD 203.5} " What was the prescription here? REST.

"Put into your diet something you have left out. It is your duty to do this. Get eggs of healthy fowls. Use these eggs cooked or raw. Drop them uncooked into the best unfermented wine you can find. This will supply that which is necessary to your system. Do not for a moment suppose that it will not be right to do this. . . . {CD 204.1} " Do you know who she was writing to? And do you know what his problem was? It was Dr. Kress. In the next sentence, she was recommending a blood transfusion. This was left out of the compilation CD. But we have it here: " This will supply that which is necessary to your system. Do not for a moment suppose that it will not be right to do this. There is one thing that has saved life--an infusion of blood from one person to another; but this would be difficult and perhaps impossible for you to do. I merely suggest it. {12MR 168.2}". Shall we then conclude, that along with our recommendation of giving raw eggs in wine, we should also recommend regular blood transfusions? I think not. This recommentation was to a specific person for a specific disease. The good doctor did live to a nice old age. Has medical science made any advancements in this area in the last 112 years?

"God has made provisions for those who live in the different countries of the world. Those who desire to be co-workers with God must consider carefully how they teach health reform in God's great vineyard. They must move carefully in specifying just what food should and should not be eaten. The human messenger must unite with the divine Helper in presenting the message of mercy to the multitudes God would save. {CD 205.3}

We are to be brought into connection with the masses. Should health reform be taught them in its most extreme form, harm would be done. We ask them to leave off eating meat and drinking tea and coffee. This is well. But some say that milk also should be given up. This is a subject that needs to be carefully handled. There are poor families whose diet consists of bread and milk, and, if they can get it, a little fruit. All flesh food should be discarded, but vegetables should be made palatable with a little milk or cream or something equivalent. The poor say, when health reform is presented to them, 'What shall we eat? We cannot afford to buy the nut foods.'" Health reform in its most extreme form - is she saying that giving up milk is wrong, or that to tell everyone them must give it up immediately is wrong? The subject needs to be carefully handled!!! Consider the poor! They may not be able to afford that which is most healthful.

"The time will come when we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs; but my message is that you must not bring yourself to a time of trouble beforehand, and thus afflict yourself with death. Wait till the Lord prepares the way before you. {CD 206.1} " Has the LORD prepared a way for now? It certainly is easier now than it ever has been!

"The reforms that are strained to the highest tension might accommodate a certain class.." Yes, a certain class might NEED to go to the extreme in order to regain health, but the majority, at least in her day, do not.

"There are those who try to abstain from what is declared to be harmful. They fail to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence become weak and unable to work. . Thus health reform is brought to disrepute." Is this the majority as green says? No. But those that make sweeping changes without supplying the proper nourishment, will give the work a black eye.

"But God will interfere to prevent the results of these too-strenuous ideas. The gospel is to harmonize the sinful race. It is to bring the rich and the poor together at the feet of Jesus. . . . {CD 206.3} " Is God interfering. Health reform is being taught with great benefit to the sick. It is too bad that the non-SDA and the non-Christians are appearing to take the lead in many places. The rocks will cry out. People are sick and they need what God has given to this church to tell the world about health.

"But I wish to say that when the time comes that it is no longer safe to use milk, cream, butter, and eggs, God will reveal this. No extremes in health reform are to be advocated. The question of using milk and butter and eggs will work out its own problem. At present we have no burden on this line. Let your moderation be known unto all men. {CD 206.4}" We had a cow die near here recently with mad cow disease. This was a MILK cow, not a beef cow. Is our milk save? Prions are not destroyed by heat treatment. Do people know the conditions in which their eggs are laid? Most do not. Things have changed considerably in the last 112 years. Let everyone be persuaded in their own mind.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/03/13 08:10 AM

APL,

I have already addressed much of what you present above. It seems pointless to present those truths again.

Regarding prions.

I'm not sure that I believe in prions. What are they? I have a feeling many would be surprised if they were to learn the truth about this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/03/13 09:08 AM

What - no regular blood transfusions?
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/03/13 08:06 PM

Based upon what Gregory gave, Green is not an informed healthy person.

Originally Posted By: Green's NIH post

Table 1: Recommended Dietary Allowances (RDAs) for Vitamin B12 [5]
14+ years 2.4 mcg

Egg, whole, hard boiled, 1 large 0.6

2.4 / .6 = 4

Green, do you eat 4 eggs every day?

And, I don't recall which link I read it, as people age, they cannot get it from food. And there's the food bound issue with some. Suppose the protein in the eggs may be causing an interference?

That's why they recommend a supplement. By you eating eggs, you are only deceiving yourself and misleading others into pretending you are getting enough B12. But really you are endangering your and other's health.

And maybe you should play the lottery. I think it was APL's link says deficiency is not very frequent. You say you are coming across them more and more frequently. Well, at least your criticisms are more frequent?


Originally Posted By: APL
She does that the SOME who give up milk, butter, and eggs fail to supply what the body needs. Some. Not all.
Suppose that would be the ones who are not informed and not healthy? shocked


Originally Posted By: Green
Mrs. White tells us to teach people how to cook without milk and eggs. This is a step toward eventually giving them up when necessary. She never tells us, however, to teach people to give them up. On the contrary, she calls those, who even by their own examples are attempting to teach that we should give them up, health deformers. (She doesn't use that exact word, but here is the quote that supports the concept.)
I guess you didn't accept you were in err before and you won't now. But one thing no, make that two things. You cannot show Ellen White instructing people to teach how to cook without milk and eggs is implying they should NOT give them up. You cannot show that teaching not to cook with milk and eggs is connected to the health deformers passage.

Quote:
Yes, "some" is the majority.
And another one!
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/03/13 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

Here's the quote again, with my added comments this time in brackets.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The reforms that are strained to the highest tension [discarding milk and eggs] might accommodate a certain class, who can obtain all they need to take the place of the things discarded; but this class forms a very small minority of the people to whom these tests seem unnecessary.

Who can obtain. Green, who CANNOT obtain? The majority or now a very small minority?

Quote:
Quote:

There are those who try to abstain from what is declared to be harmful [note that she does not say these things are harmful, only that people say so].
Who has declared it? Can you back it up?
Quote:
Quote:

They fail to supply the system with proper nourishment [obviously, those things weren't harmful after all, as they were nourishing], and as a consequence become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought to disrepute. The work we have tried to build up solidly is confused with strange things that God has not required. The energies of the church are crippled. {CD 206.2}

Please show where that those things are the only things which can supply the system with proper nourishment and please show how she means as you state.

Quote:
There is nothing in that statement that indicates to me that anyone is required to give up milk and eggs.
Who's saying that? And who's saying we are NOT to give them up?
And was that at that time or this time?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/04/13 11:51 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

Here's the quote again, with my added comments this time in brackets.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The reforms that are strained to the highest tension [discarding milk and eggs] might accommodate a certain class, who can obtain all they need to take the place of the things discarded; but this class forms a very small minority of the people to whom these tests seem unnecessary.

Who can obtain. Green, who CANNOT obtain? The majority or now a very small minority?

kland,

The statement is clear. There is a "certain class who can obtain all they need to take the place of the things discarded; but this class forms a very small minority of the people...."

In other words, only "a very small minority of the people" can do without those things. That leaves "the very great majority of the people" who should not discard those things. What are those things, kland?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/04/13 04:03 PM

Green, if it's clear, then answer.

Who today CANNOT obtain?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/05/13 06:00 AM

kland,

If you choose to stick with a completely natural diet, involving no supplements or processed foods (such as those containing food additives), the answer is still the same today as it always was. If you are an "enlightened" vegan who understands the need of B12 supplementation and you make sure to consume "fortified" foods and/or supplements to provide your lack, then there is an increased chance that you would be included in the "very small minority" of which Ellen White speaks.

However, there are still millions of people who do not have access to such fortified foods or supplements. Where I am, for example, fortified foods are non-existent, and the only B12 to be found is the cyanocobalamin form which is not readily absorbed in the body. In this region of the world, where literally billions of people live, it is not a possibility to become a complete vegan safely, unless one happens to be in that "very small minority" of which Mrs. White speaks.

If one is a vegan, one should get his or her B12 levels tested at least once a year.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/05/13 04:22 PM

So you are saying Ellen White means by those who cannot obtain are those who cannot obtain B12 other than through animal products?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/05/13 05:03 PM

kland,

There are many nutrients in the humble egg toward which many vegans may be indifferent.

  • Vitamin B12
  • Sulfur
  • Folate (Vitamin B9)
  • Lysine
  • Vitamin A
  • Vitamin B6
  • Vitamin D
  • Zinc
  • Enzymes
  • Complete protein
  • Mono-unsaturated fat
  • docosohexaenoic acid (DHA)
  • Omega-6 Arachidonic acid (ARA)


And more....

We do not know all of the reasons for Mrs. White's direct endorsement of eggs in daily living and in medicinal use.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/05/13 06:18 PM

"Put into your diet something you have left out. It is your duty to do this. Get eggs of healthy fowls. Use these eggs cooked or raw. Drop them uncooked into the best unfermented wine you can find. This will supply that which is necessary to your system. Do not for a moment suppose that it will not be right to do this. . . . {CD 204.1} " Do you know who she was writing to? And do you know what his problem was? It was Dr. Kress. In the next sentence, she was recommending a blood transfusion. Should we concluded this is the standard of care we should give to all people on the topic?
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/05/13 11:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

  • Vitamin D



And can you say that with a straight face? - Really .


Green, I never heard. Do you eat 4 eggs every day?
Posted By: Johann

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/06/13 12:37 AM

A son lives next door with his family. Their pet chicken roam around freely without a fence on the grass. Some time ago one of the hens disappeared until she reappeared with 14 chicken.

These 14 litle chicken follow the mother wherever she goes, and at times they were all hiding under her wings.

I have been wondering how little chicken hatched in a machine are doing without the protective mother.

They give us some delicious eggs, even though I had almost discarded eggs, especially those bought in the super market.

These chicken are so tame they follow you around, and it is fairly easy to catch one of the little ones, take it up and cuddle it. The dog protects them.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/06/13 12:43 AM

::LIKE::
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/06/13 07:41 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

  • Vitamin D



And can you say that with a straight face? - Really .


Green, I never heard. Do you eat 4 eggs every day?


Are you implying that eggs do not have vitamin D? If so, why?

They do indeed.

Originally Posted By: NIH
Sources of Vitamin D
Food
Very few foods in nature contain vitamin D. The flesh of fatty fish (such as salmon, tuna, and mackerel) and fish liver oils are among the best sources [1,11]. Small amounts of vitamin D are found in beef liver, cheese, and egg yolks. Vitamin D in these foods is primarily in the form of vitamin D3 and its metabolite 25(OH)D3 [12]. Some mushrooms provide vitamin D2 in variable amounts [13,14]. Mushrooms with enhanced levels of vitamin D2 from being exposed to ultraviolet light under controlled conditions are also available.

Fortified foods provide most of the vitamin D in the American diet [1,14]. For example, almost all of the U.S. milk supply is voluntarily fortified with 100 IU/cup [1]. (In Canada, milk is fortified by law with 35–40 IU/100 mL, as is margarine at ≥530 IU/100 g.) In the 1930s, a milk fortification program was implemented in the United States to combat rickets, then a major public health problem [1]. Other dairy products made from milk, such as cheese and ice cream, are generally not fortified. Ready-to-eat breakfast cereals often contain added vitamin D, as do some brands of orange juice, yogurt, margarine and other food products.

Both the United States and Canada mandate the fortification of infant formula with vitamin D: 40–100 IU/100 kcal in the United States and 40–80 IU/100 kcal in Canada [1].


As I said, "There are many nutrients in the humble egg toward which many vegans may be indifferent." Or ignorant, as the case may be.

The interesting thing is that of those foods mentioned to have natural levels of vitamin D3, only eggs would be allowable per Mrs. White. She is positively against the use of cheese, and she would have most people discard flesh meats entirely, along with animal fats. That leaves only eggs of that list that she would recommend.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/06/13 07:42 AM

Johann,

It sounds like you have a good source of healthful eggs. You are blessed.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/06/13 09:44 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
"Put into your diet something you have left out. It is your duty to do this. Get eggs of healthy fowls. Use these eggs cooked or raw. Drop them uncooked into the best unfermented wine you can find. This will supply that which is necessary to your system. Do not for a moment suppose that it will not be right to do this. . . . {CD 204.1} " Do you know who she was writing to? And do you know what his problem was? It was Dr. Kress. In the next sentence, she was recommending a blood transfusion. Should we concluded this is the standard of care we should give to all people on the topic?


Perhaps I shall have to address this. Ignorance is hard to battle.

Mrs. White wrote out the egg remedy for multiple individuals, not only Dr. Kress. You probably know this, but are hoping I do not, or that others reading here will not. This constant attack through displays of ignorance, feigned or otherwise, wear on me. It is not a Christian attitude which is displayed in the purposeful misrepresentation of Mrs. White's counsels.

Here are other examples, for your "enlightenment."

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
I dreamed of having the care of a child that was weak, and seemed unable to rally. I thought the same physician stood by the cradle, and said, 'Have you any wine in the house? Beat up a raw egg, and give it to the child with grape wine [i.e., the unfermented juice of the grape], three times each day. He will rally.'--Letter 112a, 1897. {3MR 321.3}

The second or third night I dreamed of having the care of a child that was weak and seemed unable to rally. I thought the same physician stood by the cradle and said, "Have you any wine in the house? Beat up a raw egg, and give it to the child with grape wine, three times each day. He will rally." Dr. Lay came the next morning, and said he must return to the sanitarium the next morning, that the erysipelas was conquered but that he was extremely weak. "I am perplexed to know what to do." I told him my dream, and he went immediately and gave him the strengthening potion. He gained strength rapidly. This occurred when Willie was about twelve years old. {20MR 280.2}


Note that in this vision the Divine Physician recommended three eggs a day for a CHILD. This vision was given just before Dr. Lay came to inquire of Mrs. White what treatment to give to an older gentleman...well, let me quote the portion identifying the patient in this case.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Brother Wilson, father of the Brother Wilson now in Tasmania, had been sick, and a telegram was sent for Dr. Lay to come immediately. His father was in a terrible state of erysipelas.


This "erysipelas" case had nothing to do with Dr. Kress. Neither was the vision of giving this medicine to a "child" used to support the treatment of a child. This tells us the nature of the prescribed remedy--it is a universal remedy which can be applied to anyone in need, whether child or elderly.

Nor did this have anything to do with a blood transfusion. That appears to be a separate thought of Mrs. White applicable to Dr. Kress, and possibly applicable to similar severe cases of vegan deficiency where the blood has become so anemic as to put one close to death as was Dr. Kress' situation.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/06/13 04:13 PM

The point is that in these situations, the recommendation was for a specific problem, and you extrapolate to ALL. Probably because you had the same problem, so everyone else must to.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/06/13 04:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
The interesting thing is that of those foods mentioned to have natural levels of vitamin D3, only eggs would be allowable per Mrs. White. She is positively against the use of cheese, and she would have most people discard flesh meats entirely, along with animal fats. That leaves only eggs of that list that she would recommend.
Green, it's so hard to communicate with you. It must be that brain damage you've experienced.

You don't need vitamin D from foods. You get it from the sunshine. You implied eggs supplied vitamin D which vegan may be lacking and cannot get otherwise. Not true.




Green, I never heard. Do you eat 4 eggs every day?

Why have you not answered this question? Are you suffering from inadequate amounts of B12?
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/06/13 04:48 PM

k: Who can obtain. Green, who CANNOT obtain? The majority or now a very small minority?

G: In other words, only "a very small minority of the people" can do without those things. That leaves "the very great majority of the people" who should not discard those things.

k: Green, if it's clear, then answer. Who today CANNOT obtain?

G: However, there are still millions of people who do not have access to such fortified foods or supplements.


Let's analyze this.

I understood the world to have over 4 billion people. You even say that in your part of the world there are "literally billions".

I asked who cannot obtain. You said millions.

No one would deny that you are prone to exaggeration in this.

If you thought there were at least a billion, you would have said billions.

If there are 4 billion of people on this earth, and one billion cannot obtain, then that would be 25%.

Would you say 25% of something constitutes a "very great majority"?
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/10/13 06:46 PM

Eggs vs. Cigarettes in Atherosclerosis

A similar exponential increase in carotid artery plaque buildup was found for smokers and egg eaters.

CLICK HERE
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/10/13 07:15 PM

Green's response seems lacking.

Does he eat 4 eggs every day to think he's getting his B12?

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/111/2

1 large egg gives
.6mcg of B12 excepting this site says it's only 11% of daily value. Meaning maybe he should be eating about 9 eggs!

211mg of cholesterol * 4 = 844mg
71 calories * 4 = 284 and 180 of them from fat
2g of saturated fat * 4 = 8g saturated fat
70mg of sodium * 4 = 280mg

And all this in addition to the site which said those expecting food to supply their B12 are deceiving themselves because the B12 could be food bound. They should be taking supplements.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/11/13 06:03 AM

kland,

Are you taking supplements of B12 every day? How many micrograms per day do you take?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/11/13 04:02 PM

You were the one concerned about everyone else's B12. What about yours?

I'm concerned about someone trying to tell me that I need to take something with lots of cholesterol, calories, saturated fat, and sodium among many other harmful things.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/12/13 05:35 AM

kland,

No one has proven to me that the cholesterol in eggs is harmful. The scientific jury may still be out on it, but for the most part, the tide is changing in favor of eggs. Eggs have a higher HDL cholesterol, and of the two kinds of LDL, one which is especially bad, and one which is not so harmful, I suspect eggs have the more benign variety. Overall, eggs help to improve one's cholesterol status.

Calories. Who's afraid of calories? I need them, don't you? What would we do without energy?

Saturated fat. I would need to know more about this one than I do now, but I suspect that the fat in eggs is far more healthful than you might be aware. Why, for example, is the fat-soluble vitamin D in eggs?

Yes, you can get vitamin D made in your skin while in the presence of sunshine. However, the majority of Americans are vitamin D deficient. It's causing a host of problems, which is why the USDA is adding vitamin D to a number of "fortified" foods.

Sodium. I personally do not get enough sodium much of the time. (I just happened to have added about 1/3 teaspoon of salt to my soup last night because I felt a craving for it. My diet of late has been a low-sodium diet, but in this climate I may need more sodium than some others might.) Mrs. White tells us that it is good for the blood. Everything in moderation, of course, but sodium is not harmful to most people. If you have a kidney disease, you may need to follow a more stringent regimen on this one, but most people would have nothing to worry about in terms of an egg's sodium content.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/12/13 05:49 AM

Quote:
Overall, eggs help to improve one's cholesterol status.

Go plant based, HDL goes down. Eat junk, HDL goes up. An easy way to raise your HDL, eat a pound of butter. Great, right? not. HDL is the garbage trucks of the blood. More junk, higher HDL.

I think Green did not watch the science presentation above.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/12/13 05:54 AM

Carcinogenic Retrovirus Found in Eggs HERE

I hate it when my eggs are filled with retroviruses. But how will you ever know?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/12/13 05:59 AM

APL,

My internet connection does not do well with video. You're right, I did not watch it. In fact, my browser required a plugin that I apparently do not have in order to do so. I will not be able to watch it anytime soon.

But you apparently have not heard that HDL is good for you. Your body makes it, of course. Why?

Did you know that you have cholesterol in every cell of your body? Without it, your cell membranes would break down. Their two bilipid layers could not be held together without cholesterol. So why do you call cholesterol "the garbage trucks of the blood?"

Cholesterol is not the problem. The problem is one's diet and lifestyle. Cholesterol, especially HDL, is beneficial. But if you eat garbage, it is true that cholesterol may be required to help deal with the mess. It's not cholesterol's fault.

I, for one, would like to know what would happen to the person who ate a pound of butter who didn't see a rise in his or her cholesterol level. I suspect the result would be worse.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/12/13 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By: green
But you apparently have not heard that HDL is good for you. Your body makes it, of course. Why?
did you read my post above???
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/12/13 04:20 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
But you apparently have not heard that HDL is good for you. Your body makes it, of course. Why?
did you read my post above???

You make the claim that the body makes cholesterol because of eating "junk." I will make a counterclaim: Your body will make cholesterol even if you are on a perfect diet, and eat of the Tree of Life.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/12/13 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: green
You make the claim that the body makes cholesterol because of eating "junk." I will make a counterclaim: Your body will make cholesterol even if you are on a perfect diet, and eat of the Tree of Life.
Interesting how you see black and white. What did I say? I said, HDL will go up if you eat junk. Where in my comments are your "counterclaim" relevant? It is true, one does not need to eat ANY cholesterol, for the body will make all it needs. But for the sake of argument, you imply that I say that it does not? Really, are you counter claims fair? NO.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/13/13 06:27 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
HDL is the garbage trucks of the blood. More junk, higher HDL.

I guess I was cuing off of the above where you seemed to think HDL was good only for dealing with garbage. The accompanying thought with such a claim is that HDL would be unneeded, and/or not produced, if no "junk" were eaten.

Since you are now backpedaling somewhat from that and admit that HDL would be produced without eating "junk," perhaps my earlier response was based on insufficient information regarding your viewpoint.

The fact is: HDL is good. Some people have HDL levels that are too low. Too much of a good thing is also bad. Everything in moderation. But HDL is not a "problem" for most people. If anything, it is a big part of the "solution" when it comes to dealing with fats in the body.

The ratio of HDL to LDL is the important figure, scientists say. Eggs have a 2:1 HDL to LDL ratio, which is opposite the 1:2 ratio normally present in our body. The less HDL per LDL we have, the higher our risks of heart disease, atherosclerosis, etc. So eggs give us a boost on improving our ratio. In this aspect, eggs can hardly be demonized as they have often been.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/13/13 08:08 AM

Backpedaling? Only in your black and white world, of implying things I never said. Please, eat all the eggs you want! It is your choice, you are free to choose.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/13/13 08:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Yes, you can get vitamin D made in your skin while in the presence of sunshine. However, the majority of Americans are vitamin D deficient. It's causing a host of problems, which is why the USDA is adding vitamin D to a number of "fortified" foods.
And why are the majority (=translated=> less than 25%) of Americans not getting their vitamin D?

Quote:
Cholesterol is not the problem. The problem is one's diet and lifestyle. Cholesterol, especially HDL, is beneficial.
Yes, diet and lifestyle is the heart of the problem.


Quote:
Sodium. I personally do not get enough sodium much of the time. (I just happened to have added about 1/3 teaspoon of salt to my soup last night because I felt a craving for it.

There you go!

I see.

I want.

I take.


And that is the heart of the problem!


You want eggs. Take them.
You want salt. Take it.
You want meat. Take it.
You want to kill. Kill. And translate it not as murder...
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 09/15/13 05:06 AM

back

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/17/13 04:25 PM

In the September's Nutrition Action Healthletter referencing "Cancer Prev. Res. 4",

Looking at 27,600 men who had no prostate cancer, researchers found that "those who reported eating at least 2 1/2 eggs a week had an 81 percent higher risk of dying of prostate cancer than those who consumed less than half an egg a week."

To get your vitamin B12 from eggs, as Green recommends, you would have to eat 4 to 9 eggs each and every day to get your recommended daily allowance. That seems a little more than 2.5 eggs per week!

So Green may have good advice. You won't die from B12 deficiency by eating eggs every day. Just..... you might have some other problems. Like an 81% higher risk of dying from prostate cancer! Then there's the cholesterol, fat, sodium.... And not mentioning it's only a false sense of getting B12, which as was pointed out was food locked.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/17/13 05:25 PM

Eggs, Choline and Cancer
Eggs and Choline: Something Fishy
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/17/13 05:53 PM

kland,

Guess what? If you are a vegan, you have 2.1 times the risk of cervical cancer over a meat eater. smile

Do you think the FDA gives good recommendations, and accurate, about the RDA?

What kind of eggs do you suppose they tested for their RDA recommendations? I expect they sampled the ordinary store shelf variety. What do you think? Do you know of any tests that compare B12 equivalencies between those unwholesome eggs and the organic, free-range farm variety?

I can assure you, there is a great difference in egg quality. If you are not consuming eggs, you may not have observed this. The differences are many, including color, taste, and healthiness, and healthfulness.

But no one says that B12 is present in a strictly vegan dietary without supplementation. If you have access to suitable supplements, be content. Hopefully they live up to the claims made of them. For those who have not such advantages, the good ol' egg from the neighbor's farm does quite well at supplying the body's nutritional need.

I will be the last to recommend the typical store variety of eggs. It probably does increase the risk of prostate cancer--maybe more than you are quoting here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/17/13 09:03 PM

Originally Posted By: green
Guess what? If you are a vegan, you have 2.1 times the risk of cervical cancer over a meat eater.
Surprise! Not True! You will need to supply a quotation for this! In fact, data is just the opposite. "Vegan" diet is associated with a decrease in woman diseases. Vegan women had a 34 percent lower rates of female-specific cancers such as breast, cervical, and ovarian cancer. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23169929. And this published by Loma Linda Univ. from the AHS-2.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/18/13 12:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Do you think the FDA gives good recommendations, and accurate, about the RDA?

What kind of eggs do you suppose they tested for their RDA recommendations? I expect they sampled the ordinary store shelf variety. What do you think? Do you know of any tests that compare B12 equivalencies between those unwholesome eggs and the organic, free-range farm variety?
Since you are the one promoting eggs as a source of B12, please tell us. Tell us how much B12 are in eggs, how much B12 we need each day, and how many eggs we need to eat to supply that need.

Quote:
But no one says that B12 is present in a strictly vegan dietary without supplementation. If you have access to suitable supplements, be content. Hopefully they live up to the claims made of them. For those who have not such advantages, the good ol' egg from the neighbor's farm does quite well at supplying the body's nutritional need.
This is a bald faced statement you need to support.

Otherwise, you end up sounding.... well... sounding the way you sound.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/18/13 06:23 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
Guess what? If you are a vegan, you have 2.1 times the risk of cervical cancer over a meat eater.
Surprise! Not True! You will need to supply a quotation for this!

Here's one. I haven't been able to relocate the clearer source of this, in another statistic from the same study, which I have read somewhere. In any case, this statistic is relevant enough.

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/cancer#cervical

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/18/13 06:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
Guess what? If you are a vegan, you have 2.1 times the risk of cervical cancer over a meat eater.
Surprise! Not True! You will need to supply a quotation for this!

Here's one. I haven't been able to relocate the clearer source of this, in another statistic from the same study, which I have read somewhere. In any case, this statistic is relevant enough.

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/cancer#cervical

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Nope - that link does not your claim about VEGANs. I think the AHS-2 study trumps that one which shows VEGANS have a lower risk of cervical cancer.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/18/13 10:10 PM

Green, are you saying that you have no idea how much B12 are in eggs, how much B12 we need each day, and how many eggs we need to eat to supply that need?

Are you saying you feeeel that eggs must supply B12, that you feeeel the B12 must be available to you, that you feeeel the number of eggs you have chosen to eat gives the exact amount you need? And you feeeel the need to blindly promote eggs when you get the chance have no idea how much B12 is in eggs, how much B12 you need, nor how many eggs supply that amount of B12?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/20/13 07:13 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Green, are you saying that you have no idea how much B12 are in eggs, how much B12 we need each day, and how many eggs we need to eat to supply that need?

Are you saying you feeeel that eggs must supply B12, that you feeeel the B12 must be available to you, that you feeeel the number of eggs you have chosen to eat gives the exact amount you need? And you feeeel the need to blindly promote eggs when you get the chance have no idea how much B12 is in eggs, how much B12 you need, nor how many eggs supply that amount of B12?


kland,

Yes, I'm saying I do not know. I have never had equipment, training, nor ability to sample the B12 content of eggs, nor do I have a human-body "user's manual" that tells me just how much B12 each human needs in his or her diet.

Here's what I have, from a higher authority than myself:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
I dreamed of having the care of a child that was weak, and seemed unable to rally. I thought the same physician stood by the cradle, and said, 'Have you any wine in the house? Beat up a raw egg, and give it to the child with grape wine [i.e., the unfermented juice of the grape], three times each day. He will rally.'--Letter 112a, 1897. {3MR 321.3}

When a letter came to me from Cooranbong, saying that Dr.----- was dying, I was that night instructed that he must have a change of diet. A raw egg, taken two or three times a day, would give the nourishment that he greatly needed. {TSDF 41.7}

After this Dr. Lay came to me and said, "I have gone as far as I can go, but Brother Wilson is sinking. I cannot arouse him." I said, "Last night I dreamed that my sick child was sinking. I asked the skillful Physician, who has never lost a case, what I should do. The answer came, "Break an egg into a glass of unfermented wine, and give him such a drink two or three times a day, until the exhaustion is gone and there is a revival of the life forces." Snatching up his hat, Dr. Lay said, "This is of the Lord. We shall save Brother Wilson yet." And off he went. For three days he gave him egg and wine, and he was soon fully recovered. {12MR 171.4}
This Brother Wilson was the father of our beloved Brother Wilson who died in Queensland, Australia. {12MR 172.1}
I write you this that you may see that the very simplest things may be used as remedial agents in placing one in great danger in a favorable condition. {12MR 172.2}
I have something to say in reference to extreme views of health reform. Health reform becomes health deform, a health destroyer, when it is carried to extremes. You will not be successful in sanitariums where the sick are treated if you prescribe for the patients the same diet you have prescribed for yourself and your wife. I assure you that your ideas in regard to diet for the sick are not advisable. The change is too great. While I would discard flesh meat as injurious, something less objectionable may be used, and this is found in eggs. Do not remove milk from the table or forbid its being used in the cooking of food. The milk used should be procured from healthy cows, and should be sterilized. {12MR 172.3}


From what Mrs. White says, even two eggs may be sufficient to provide the needed nourishment per day. She says "two or three" per day.

I believe her more than all of the "science" of the world.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/20/13 08:38 AM

Eggs, Choline, and Cancer
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/20/13 09:13 AM

APL,

Are you opposing God's prophet?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/20/13 04:06 PM

EGW: Some, in abstaining from milk, eggs, and butter, have failed to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence have become weak and unable to work.

Green turns this into ALL. Is this logical?

EGW: I cannot say to them: "You must not eat eggs, or milk, or cream. You must use no butter in the preparation of food." The gospel must be preached to the poor, but the time has not yet come to prescribe the strictest diet. {CCh 238.2}

Good advice! We can not deprive the poor.

EGW: While warnings have been given regarding the dangers of disease through butter, and the evil of the free use of eggs by small children, yet we should not consider it a violation of principle to use eggs from hens that are well cared for and suitably fed.

When the MAJORITY of people buy eggs, do they know the conditions of the chickens where these eggs were produced? The MAJORITY do not.

EGW: Milk, eggs, and butter should not be classed with flesh meat. In some cases the use of eggs is beneficial.

ALL? No, SOME.

EGW: Those who live in new countries or in poverty-stricken districts where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary. It is true that persons in full flesh and in whom the animal passions are strong need to avoid the use of stimulating foods. Especially in families of children who are given to sensual habits, eggs should not be used.

Very good recommendation!

Green - are you opposing God's prophet?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/20/13 04:23 PM

APL,

When God has told you that you should give up milk and eggs, I will have nothing further to urge upon you. I believe that time will come. That is what Mrs. White says. We are to prepare for that time and educate people in how to cook without milk and eggs ahead of that time. However, we are not to be teaching anyone to dispense with them. God Himself claims the responsibility of telling us when it is the proper time to give them up.

God has not yet told me it is time, and most people I'm acquainted with claim that they "believe" it is time because of a whole list of conditions in the world that make such things, to their view, unhealthful. They do not, however, tell me that God has told them it is now time to dispense with these articles of food. To me, then, they are jumping the gun.

That is my chief concern here. People do not realize the benefit of eggs, and feel that they should give them up now in preparation for a future need to do so.

One of the staunchest vegans I know, who had campaigned against milk and eggs with great debate toward others, including myself, passed away last year quite suddenly and unexpectedly. I've heard it was a heart attack, but I'm not sure exactly what happened. No diet on earth will give us immortality at this time. There is no perfect diet. No matter what we eat, there are some toxins, some imperfections, some deficiencies, and some imbalances in it, even when we obtain foods in the most natural forms possible. This is an imperfect planet.

Eggs provide vitamin B-12, sulfur, a complete protein, vitamin D, multiple other B-vitamins, and healthful oils in addition to enzymes and other properties which we may be ignorant of that are good for our health. Mrs. White wrote under inspiration, and recommended eggs, never once telling anyone that he or she should teach people to give them up.

Most vegans I know, however, are evangelistic with their views. That is what troubles me. They are not following Mrs. White's counsels.

I will not tell anyone to give up eggs. That is God's domain. I will resist others who instruct people to give them up, for that is not their prerogative unless they have been given inspiration from God on the matter. I feel it is my duty to address these errors insofar as I have come in contact with them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa,
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/20/13 04:56 PM

"a complete protein". Green - even vegan diets provide "a complete protein". "never once telling anyone" to give them up. GREEN - Yes she did. There are those she said should NOT have eggs. I'm not going to repeat the quote as it is obviously useless to do so.

Meat - do you believe we should give up meat? You can find quote-bytes of EGW to support many views, one reason it is nice to take her as a whole. Example: EGW:You are to make no prescriptions that flesh meats shall never be used, but you are to educate the mind, and let the light shine in. Let the individual conscience be awakened in regard to self-preservation and self-purity from every perverted appetite

What? No prescription that flesh meats shall never be used? Then consider this quote: EGW: Instruction has been given me that physicians who use flesh meat and prescribe it for their patients, should not be employed in our institutions, because they fail decidedly in educating the patients to discard that which makes them sick. The physician who uses and prescribes meat does not reason from cause to effect, and instead of acting as a restorer, he leads the patient by his own example to indulge perverted appetite.

Indulge in perverted appetite. Hm....
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/20/13 04:58 PM

BTW - - the only real study that looks at VEGAN diet and female cancers shows a across the board decrease in such cancers. You best update your information. This includes cervical cancer. But - I'll BET you will not acknowledge this study. Care to prove me wrong?
Posted By: Harold Fair

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/21/13 12:58 AM

Has anyone read Genesis one 29?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/21/13 07:33 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
"a complete protein". Green - even vegan diets provide "a complete protein". "never once telling anyone" to give them up. GREEN - Yes she did. There are those she said should NOT have eggs. I'm not going to repeat the quote as it is obviously useless to do so.

Again, APL, you are showing your inability to read for understanding. Your post demonstrates your level of studiousness and your willingness to misquote.

Yes, you have quoted exactly some of my words. But you have not done justice to what I was saying, for by leaving out a portion of what I said, you have twisted it to mean what you wish it had meant, and to say something that I never said nor intended to say. Here's what you did not quote:

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
...never once telling anyone that he or she should teach people to give them up.


In other words, you have argued fruitlessly against a point that I never made. I hope others are more diligent in their manner of arriving at truth. Truth is worth everything. Error should be shunned. There is life in truth, and death in error. May the truth reign!

I stand by my words. My words were accurate. You can only disprove them by finding a statement from Mrs. White where she instructed someone to teach people to give up milk or eggs. I don't believe you will find such a statement, for I have pored over all of Mrs. White's statements on this subject not once or twice and have preached on this subject a message with the full balance that Mrs. White gave it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/21/13 08:44 AM

Talk about playing with words....

How about Vegans and cervical cancer????
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/22/13 07:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Harold Fair
Has anyone read Genesis one 29?
Indeed. I've also read Genesis 9:3, Deuteronomy 14, Exodus 16, and Matthew 14 and 16.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/22/13 06:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Green, are you saying that you have no idea how much B12 are in eggs, how much B12 we need each day, and how many eggs we need to eat to supply that need?

Are you saying you feeeel that eggs must supply B12, that you feeeel the B12 must be available to you, that you feeeel the number of eggs you have chosen to eat gives the exact amount you need? And you feeeel the need to blindly promote eggs when you get the chance have no idea how much B12 is in eggs, how much B12 you need, nor how many eggs supply that amount of B12?


kland,

Yes, I'm saying I do not know. I have never had equipment, training, nor ability to sample the B12 content of eggs, nor do I have a human-body "user's manual" that tells me just how much B12 each human needs in his or her diet.
So you admit that your advice to eat eggs to supply one's needs of B12 is invalid and without basis.


Quote:
Here's what I have, from a higher authority than myself:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
I dreamed of having the care of a child that was weak, and seemed unable to rally. I thought the same physician stood by the cradle, and said, 'Have you any wine in the house? Beat up a raw egg, and give it to the child with grape wine [i.e., the unfermented juice of the grape], three times each day. He will [urally[/u].'--Letter 112a, 1897. {3MR 321.3}
Green, are you a weak child who is unable to rally?

Quote:
When a letter came to me from Cooranbong, saying that Dr.----- was dying, I was that night instructed that he must have a change of diet. A raw egg, taken two or three times a day, would give the nourishment that he greatly needed. {TSDF 41.7}
Green, are you dying? Do you take a raw egg two or three times a day?

Quote:
After this Dr. Lay came to me and said, "I have gone as far as I can go, but Brother Wilson is sinking. I cannot arouse him." I said, "Last night I dreamed that my sick child was sinking. I asked the skillful Physician, who has never lost a case, what I should do. The answer came, "Break an egg into a glass of unfermented wine, and give him such a drink two or three times a day, until the exhaustion is gone and there is a revival of the life forces." Snatching up his hat, Dr. Lay said, "This is of the Lord. We shall save Brother Wilson yet." And off he went. For three days he gave him egg and wine, and he was soon fully recovered. {12MR 171.4}
Green, are you sinking and cannot be aroused? Are you exhausted and have not yet had a revival of life forces? Are you not fully recovered? (And before you spin it, consider that Brother Wilson DID become fully recovered.)

Quote:
This Brother Wilson was the father of our beloved Brother Wilson who died in Queensland, Australia. {12MR 172.1}
I write you this that you may see that the very simplest things may be used as remedial agents in placing one in great danger in a favorable condition. {12MR 172.2}
Green, are you not in a favorable condition?

Quote:
I have something to say in reference to extreme views of health reform. Health reform becomes health deform, a health destroyer, when it is carried to extremes. You will not be successful in sanitariums where the sick are treated if you prescribe for the patients the same diet you have prescribed for yourself and your wife. I assure you that your ideas in regard to diet for the sick are not advisable. The change is too great. While I would discard flesh meat as injurious, something less objectionable may be used, and this is found in eggs. Do not remove milk from the table or forbid its being used in the cooking of food. The milk used should be procured from healthy cows, and should be sterilized. {12MR 172.3}

Green, are you sick? Does not eating eggs, as long as you replace the nourishment that was removed, constitute extremes in diet?

Whether you are weak, dying, unable to rally, sinking and cannot be aroused, exhausted, your life forces failing, and not fully recovered, sickly and in an unfavorable condition, do not urge your views upon others who may not be in such a poor, sickly, dying condition as you may be. Those who CAN supply their nutritional needs in place of what has been left out.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/24/13 06:37 AM

kland,

You've cherry-picked a few statements that appear to support your perspective. There are many other statements that have a fuller balance than what these show by themselves when taken alone. These statements focused on disease. But she does not only recommend eggs to people who are diseased. If you read her writings with an unbiased mind, you would recognize this.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
While warnings have been given regarding the dangers of disease through butter, and the evil of the free use of eggs by small children, yet we should not consider it a violation of principle to use eggs from hens that are well cared for and suitably fed. Eggs contain properties that are remedial agencies in counteracting certain poisons. {9T 162.1}


"Free use" would mean "liberal" or "abundant." She never entirely proscribes eggs for small children, but her counsels would definitely limit them to a moderate amount. Does this mean only for a weak or sickly child?

Let me ask you, kland, would you think sunshine, or salt, or fresh fruit, or any similar healthful item was only good for you if you were sick? Suppose you accepted that attitude...you might be sick often. This very thought is evinced in the following statement:
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Some, in abstaining from milk, eggs, and butter, have failed to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence have become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought into disrepute. The work that we have tried to build up solidly is confused with strange things that God has not required, and the energies of the church are crippled. But God will interfere to prevent the results of these too strenuous ideas. The gospel is to harmonize the sinful race. It is to bring the rich and poor together at the feet of Jesus. {TSDF 41.10}


Who are the "some?" This is a big question. You would likely try to say that it is "some of those who abstained." But that adds to Mrs. White's words in a way that cannot be substantiated by this statement. It might instead mean that some had abstained and in doing so had brought weakness upon themselves because of their abstinence. In other words, the statement does not clarify if she meant all, most or some of those who abstained. If all or most, then it would be entirely unjustified to presume to say one should abstain.

Nay, that eggs were expressly recommended by Mrs. White in certain of these cases of sickness goes to show that the imbalance and misunderstanding of the health message was already an issue in her day. She was required to recommend eggs to people who would not otherwise have accepted them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/24/13 09:34 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Talk about playing with words....

How about Vegans and cervical cancer????
Bump for Green
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/24/13 11:22 AM

APL,

The website that I originally found my information on has since been updated and it is no longer there. It was a statistic that came from the 1999 Meta Analysis as I have already said. I have no better link to that information than the one I have provided that gave a partial answer. I can assure you, however, that I have laid eyes on the very statistic I provided here, and I am telling you the source study of that statistic. You may be able to search and find it yourself on some other site or archives somewhere.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/24/13 09:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

The website that I originally found my information on has since been updated and it is no longer there. It was a statistic that came from the 1999 Meta Analysis as I have already said. I have no better link to that information than the one I have provided that gave a partial answer. I can assure you, however, that I have laid eyes on the very statistic I provided here, and I am telling you the source study of that statistic. You may be able to search and find it yourself on some other site or archives somewhere.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
IF you have read the links provided by you and me on this topic, you would have read that there was a disclaimer in your links that said that the data pertained to vegetarians - non-vegans. The AHS-2 data specifically looked at vegans and female cancers, specifically mentioning cervical cancer. Indeed, this is the only real study with significant numbers that address this issue.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/25/13 12:35 AM

Originally Posted By: green
"Free use" would mean "liberal" or "abundant." She never entirely proscribes eggs for small children, but her counsels would definitely limit them to a moderate amount. Does this mean only for a weak or sickly child?
Never? Never? EGW makes many recommendations on many topics. When she writes, "I was shown", I take more notice of what she was "shown".
Originally Posted By: EGW
I have been shown the danger of families that are of an excitable temperament, the animal predominating. Their children should not be allowed to make eggs their diet, for this kind of food--eggs and animal flesh--feeds and inflames the animal passions. This makes it very difficult for them to overcome the temptation to indulge in the sinful practice of self-abuse, which in this age is almost universally practiced. This practice weakens the physical, mental, and moral powers and bars the way to everlasting life. {2MR 106.1}
So Green, is it still "never'?????
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/25/13 01:11 PM

APL,

Is a "diet of eggs" the same meaning to you as occasional eggs? It isn't to me.

Look at what she says in another statement.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
While warnings have been given regarding the dangers of disease through butter, and the evil of the free use of eggs by small children, yet we should not consider it a violation of principle to use eggs from hens that are well cared for and suitably fed. Eggs contain properties that are remedial agencies in counteracting certain poisons. {CD 352.4}

(1905) M.H. 320, 321
625. Those who live in new countries or in poverty-stricken districts where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary. It is true that persons in full flesh and in whom the animal passions are strong need to avoid the use of stimulating foods. Especially in families of children who are given to sensual habits, eggs should not be used. But in the case of persons whose blood-making organs are feeble,--especially if other foods to supply the needed elements cannot be obtained,-- milk and eggs should not be wholly discarded. Great care should be taken, however, to obtain milk from healthy cows and eggs from healthy fowls, that are well fed and well cared for; and the eggs should be so cooked as to be most easily digested. {CD 365.1}


The question you must answer for intelligent minds like mine is why did Mrs. White say "free use" of eggs if she meant that children should never consume them at all? She had no need to qualify the amount of use of eggs if she had meant to prohibit them entirely. And what about those families who are not "given to sensual habits?" Why specify what kind of families if ALL small children are proscribed from eating eggs?

Mrs. White was more balanced than many of her adherents.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Gregory

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/25/13 02:27 PM

In reading what Green has said on eating eggs (I have not read everything.) I am in general agreement with what he has said about eggs.

However, I note the following:

Quote:
Again, APL, you are showing your inability to read for understanding. Your post demonstrates your level of studiousness and your willingness to misquote.

Yes, you have quoted exactly some of my words. But you have not done justice to what I was saying, for by leaving out a portion of what I said, you have twisted it to mean what you wish it had meant, and to say something that I never said nor intended to say. Here's what you did not quote:


I would encourage Green to read the above as if it had been said to him. Sometimes what we say to others can well be directed to us.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/25/13 05:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

Is a "diet of eggs" the same meaning to you as occasional eggs? It isn't to me.

Look at what she says in another statement.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
While warnings have been given regarding the dangers of disease through butter, and the evil of the free use of eggs by small children, yet we should not consider it a violation of principle to use eggs from hens that are well cared for and suitably fed. Eggs contain properties that are remedial agencies in counteracting certain poisons. {CD 352.4}

(1905) M.H. 320, 321
625. Those who live in new countries or in poverty-stricken districts where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary. It is true that persons in full flesh and in whom the animal passions are strong need to avoid the use of stimulating foods. Especially in families of children who are given to sensual habits, eggs should not be used. But in the case of persons whose blood-making organs are feeble,--especially if other foods to supply the needed elements cannot be obtained,-- milk and eggs should not be wholly discarded. Great care should be taken, however, to obtain milk from healthy cows and eggs from healthy fowls, that are well fed and well cared for; and the eggs should be so cooked as to be most easily digested. {CD 365.1}


The question you must answer for intelligent minds like mine is why did Mrs. White say "free use" of eggs if she meant that children should never consume them at all? She had no need to qualify the amount of use of eggs if she had meant to prohibit them entirely. And what about those families who are not "given to sensual habits?" Why specify what kind of families if ALL small children are proscribed from eating eggs?

Mrs. White was more balanced than many of her adherents.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
The point is, you said she never proscribed eggs. The quote I provided is an "I was shown" quote. In it, she included eggs and meat. Are you telling me that meat is OK?
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/25/13 06:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
kland,

You've cherry-picked a few statements that appear to support your perspective.
Funny, I thought you were the one who cherry-picked the statements which I quoted from you. I was only showing your error.

Is this another cherry-picked statement you wish to talk about?
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Some, in abstaining from milk, eggs, and butter, have failed to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence have become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought into disrepute. The work that we have tried to build up solidly is confused with strange things that God has not required, and the energies of the church are crippled. But God will interfere to prevent the results of these too strenuous ideas. The gospel is to harmonize the sinful race. It is to bring the rich and poor together at the feet of Jesus. {TSDF 41.10}

Maybe you are not familiar with comma constructs. The statement is: Some have failed to supply the system with proper nourishment.

The comma clause describes what was left out and that some have failed to supply proper nourishment in its place.

Quote:
To Take the Place of Flesh Meat

(1905) M.H. 316, 317
492. When flesh food is discarded, its place should be supplied with a variety of grains, nuts, vegetables, and fruits, that will be both nourishing and appetizing. . . . The place of meat should be supplied with wholesome foods that are inexpensive.

Do you say flesh food should not be discarded? Or something should be supplied in it's place?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/27/13 02:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
I assure you that your ideas in regard to diet for the sick are not advisable. The change is too great. While I would discard flesh-meat as injurious, something less objectionable may be used, and this is found in eggs. Do not remove milk from the table or forbid it being used in the cooking of food. The milk used should be procured from healthy cows, and should be sterilized. {TSDF 120.11}

Letter 37, 1901
324. I have something to say in reference to extreme views of health reform. Health reform becomes health deform, a health destroyer, when it is carried to extremes. You will not be successful in sanitariums, where the sick are treated, if you prescribe for the patients the same diet you have prescribed for yourself and your wife. I assure you that your ideas in regard to diet for the sick are not advisable. The change is too great. While I would discard flesh meat as injurious, something less objectionable may be used, and this is found in eggs. Do not remove milk from the table or forbid its being used in the cooking of food. The milk used should be procured from healthy cows, and should be sterilized. {CD 202.4}


Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Concerning flesh meat, we should educate the people to let it alone. Its use is contrary to the best development of the physical, mental, and moral powers. And we should bear a clear testimony against the use of tea and coffee. It is also well to discard rich desserts. Milk, eggs, and butter should not be classed with flesh meat. In some cases the use of eggs is beneficial. The time has not come to say that the use of milk and eggs should be wholly discarded. There are poor families whose diet consists largely of bread and milk. They have little fruit and cannot afford to purchase the nut foods. In teaching health reform, as in all other gospel work, we are to meet the people where they are. Until we can teach them how to prepare health reform foods that are palatable, nourishing, and yet inexpensive, we are not at liberty to present the most advanced propositions regarding health reform diet. {7T 134.6}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/27/13 02:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Gregory
In reading what Green has said on eating eggs (I have not read everything.) I am in general agreement with what he has said about eggs.

However, I note the following:

Quote:
Again, APL, you are showing your inability to read for understanding. Your post demonstrates your level of studiousness and your willingness to misquote.

Yes, you have quoted exactly some of my words. But you have not done justice to what I was saying, for by leaving out a portion of what I said, you have twisted it to mean what you wish it had meant, and to say something that I never said nor intended to say. Here's what you did not quote:


I would encourage Green to read the above as if it had been said to him. Sometimes what we say to others can well be directed to us.


Gregory,

Did you read the post of mine APL had responded to, and then his response to me? APL well knew what he was doing. The rebuke I gave was earned. If I were to have purposefully twisted his words to say the opposite of what he had said, I have no doubt that I would be deservedly rebuked as well. You will note that APL made no protest to this post which you found objectionable. He has accepted the facts and moved on. I hope you will too.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/27/13 05:27 PM

green - - do not take my silence to mean I accept what you have said. The more I read you, the more I test EVERYTHING you say, as your statement that EGW never proscribed eggs is false, and I gave you a "I was shown" statement.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/27/13 05:48 PM

Green knows at least his select quotations. What will he do with the rest?
Posted By: Gregory

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/27/13 05:57 PM

APL Said:
Quote:
The more I read you, the more I test EVERYTHING you say, . . .


Exactly what you should do.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/27/13 06:00 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
green - - do not take my silence to mean I accept what you have said. The more I read you, the more I test EVERYTHING you say, as your statement that EGW never proscribed eggs is false, and I gave you a "I was shown" statement.

Your error is not in the quote, it is in the interpretation of it. "Make eggs their diet" is not the same as "must never eat an egg." Reasonable minds would understand this.

APL, since you seem inclined to have a change of diet, and you wish to "make [something] [your] diet" according to Mrs. White, you should follow her counsel here:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Make fruit the article of diet to be placed on your table, which shall constitute the bill of fare.


smile

Does she mean to tell you to eat only fruit? Of course not. To "make a diet" of something or to "not make a diet" of something means to eat it regularly or not regularly, respectively. Mrs. White herself defines this distinction, as if she anticipated the immoderate views which people would arrive at such as some have put forward here.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Oh my soul, how it has hurt me to have the blocks thrown in the way in regard to myself. They will tell you that Sister White did this, or Sister White did that,--for instance, "Sister White ate cheese, and so we are all at liberty to eat cheese." Who told them that I ate cheese? I never have cheese on my table. There was one time when I was at Minneapolis, one or two times I tasted it, but that is a different thing from making it a diet, entirely a different thing. I have tasted of very bitter herbs on special occasions, but I would not make a diet of them. But there was a special occasion in Minneapolis where I could get nothing else, and there were some small bits of cheese on the table, and my brethren were there, and one of them had told me that if I would eat a little of that it would change my condition, and I did. I took a bit of that cheese, and I do not think I touched it again the second time. {SpM 169.1}


In other words, even those who should not "make a diet" of eggs were never entirely proscribed from eating them. They were not, however, to eat them regularly. That is clear.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Gregory

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/27/13 06:07 PM

Johann said:
Quote:
Green knows at least his select quotations.


When I was in college, I read EGWs writings (The Conflict series, the 9 red books, and others.) multiple times. I read them to get a sense of where EGW was on a subject and to get a sense of the context of her statements.

In this computer age, with her writings on CDs and computerized searches (I have the CD.) I feel we have lost something. Yes, we have gained and perhaps more than we have lost. But, I feel that we may have l lost a sense of the context and an overall picture of the balance that EGW was.

Sometimes when I read the postings of people here, I wonder if their main (sole) exposure and understanding to EGW comes from a search of a CD.

I have that sense, or question in my mind, when I read some of Green's posts. E.G. I wonder if he has ever actually read the 9 red books? Maybe he has. I only wonder.

Yet, I have to say that in his postings about EGW and eggs, he does show a sense of her balance on the subject.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/27/13 06:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Gregory
APL Said:
Quote:
The more I read you, the more I test EVERYTHING you say, . . .


Exactly what you should do.


Indeed. Perhaps my posts here have accomplished something after all.

smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/27/13 06:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Gregory
Johann said:
Quote:
Green knows at least his select quotations.


When I was in college, I read EGWs writings (The Conflict series, the 9 red books, and others.) multiple times. I read them to get a sense of where EGW was on a subject and to get a sense of the context of her statements.

In this computer age, with her writings on CDs and computerized searches (I have the CD.) I feel we have lost something. Yes, we have gained and perhaps more than we have lost. But, I feel that we may have l lost a sense of the context and an overall picture of the balance that EGW was.

Sometimes when I read the postings of people here, I wonder if their main (sole) exposure and understanding to EGW comes from a search of a CD.

I have that sense, or question in my mind, when I read some of Green's posts. E.G. I wonder if he has ever actually read the 9 red books? Maybe he has. I only wonder.

Yet, I have to say that in his postings about EGW and eggs, he does show a sense of her balance on the subject.

Yes, Gregory, I'm well-versed in the Spirit of Prophecy. I read nearly all of the nine volumes of the Testimonies as a child, before my teenage years. I am now re-reading them in their entirety. My parents gave considerable encouragement to read Mrs. White, but they never required it. This was very wise on their part. My mother read through all of the published writings of Ellen White during her childhood and youth. We have more publications today, of course, than she had. But I was brought up in an atmosphere based on the balance of Mrs. White, for certain points of imbalance with my parents' own upbringing they sought to correct in their own parenting, based on the balanced perspective of Mrs. White.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Gregory

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/27/13 06:37 PM

It has been said by others that everything should be tested. As to who should get credit--probably not anyone posting here.

On another subject: It has been said and posted in this forum:
Quote:
We want to know the truth, the whole truth as it is in Jesus. We cannot afford to cherish error on any point. Those who take their stand firmly upon the truth will know what affliction and persecution are. -- Ellen White


The context seems to me that error should not be cherished that is in Jesus. Perhaps there may be error that is NOT in Jesus and may not be of fundamental spiritual value.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/28/13 05:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Gregory
Johann said:
Quote:
Green knows at least his select quotations.


When I was in college, I read EGWs writings (The Conflict series, the 9 red books, and others.) multiple times. I read them to get a sense of where EGW was on a subject and to get a sense of the context of her statements.

In this computer age, with her writings on CDs and computerized searches (I have the CD.) I feel we have lost something. Yes, we have gained and perhaps more than we have lost. But, I feel that we may have l lost a sense of the context and an overall picture of the balance that EGW was.

Sometimes when I read the postings of people here, I wonder if their main (sole) exposure and understanding to EGW comes from a search of a CD.

I have that sense, or question in my mind, when I read some of Green's posts. E.G. I wonder if he has ever actually read the 9 red books? Maybe he has. I only wonder.

Yet, I have to say that in his postings about EGW and eggs, he does show a sense of her balance on the subject.
EGW was balanced. Green? Hm. To Green - everyone should be eating multiple eggs per day. He has accused several here of being brain damaged because of B12 deficiency. How exactly was he able to make that diagnosis? Prejudice viewpoint? EGW was balanced - the poor were not to be told to give up eggs; those who could not obtain that which was required to make good blood should not give up eggs as SOME, not all, required. She said we need to teach people how to give up eggs, and other things. She taught that some children should not have eggs due to sensual habits. She taught that disease was increasing and that milk and eggs would come to a point where they could not be trusted. She taught that eggs were of a lesser harm. EGW was balanced!

Look at the title of this thread to get Green's bias. Green has stated and to my knowledge not retracted his claim that vegans have higher the incidence of cervical cancer. Yet the only real study to look at vegans and female cancers including cervical cancer shows a decrease incidence. Does green even know what the cause of cervical cancer is?

EGW was balanced on the subject.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/28/13 06:37 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Does green even know what the cause of cervical cancer is?

Are you implying you do? Do you have some experience you'd like to share with us?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/28/13 06:40 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
EGW was balanced on the subject.


I'm glad you think so. On this we would agree. But I don't see how you are as balanced as she was.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God has furnished man with abundant means for the gratification of an unperverted appetite. He has spread before him the products of the earth, — a bountiful variety of food that is palatable to the taste and nutritious to the system. Of these our benevolent heavenly Father says we may freely eat. Fruits, grains, and vegetables, prepared in a simple way, free from spice and grease of all kinds, make, with milk or cream, the most healthful diet. They impart nourishment to the body, and give a power of endurance and a vigor of intellect that are not produced by a stimulating diet. {CTBH 47.1}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/28/13 06:04 PM

How many of your Asian friends tolerate milk well?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/29/13 03:24 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
How many of your Asian friends tolerate milk well?

Milk is widely available here. Many sweet breads are made with it. Sweetened condensed milk is a favorite with some foods here, such as, believe it or not, avocado.

Asians definitely don't consume the quantities of dairy products that America does. However, they seem to have no big problem with occasional moderate consumption.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/29/13 06:22 PM

Indeed Asians, as most of the non-European world, do not tolerate milk due to lactase "deficiency" moving into adulthood. Fortunately, most can obtain all they need from other sources as EGW has taught us to teach.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/29/13 06:28 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Indeed Asians, as most of the non-European world, do not tolerate milk due to lactase "deficiency" moving into adulthood. Fortunately, most can obtain all they need from other sources as EGW has taught us to teach.

Your statement may be out of date. Lactose intolerance is not merely genetic. It is developed partly through lack of exposure to milk in the early childhood years--a fact that has been changing in Asia over the past decade.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/29/13 07:50 PM

And this exposure has made them healthier, right? Hm - read, "The China Study".
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/29/13 08:24 PM

Green, you've said before you've had a B12 deficiency.
You've said before that B12 deficiency can cause permanent brain damage.
You've said eating eggs provides you with adequate B12.
But you've said you do not know how much B12 is in eggs, nor how much B12 you need, nor how much B12 you get from eggs. You admit it is by your own feeelings.

When was the last time you've been tested for B12 deficiency?

(By the way, this is assuming you were tested in the past as to how you knew you had a deficiency. Do I make a wrong assumption?)
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/30/13 06:43 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
And this exposure has made them healthier, right? Hm - read, "The China Study".

It is a fact that people in Asia are growing taller now with better nutrition. Consumption of milk may be a part of that. They do not consume inordinate quantities, as their American friends do, to their detriment.

Asians, like everyone, are facing a host of health problems today of which they were either not aware or did not experience in the past. This includes diabetes, the primary cause of which, in Asia, is lack of exercise. Refined foods are still not the bill of fare here as they are in America, but a sedentary lifestyle is very much commonplace now.

Overall, nutrition is better today in my part of Asia than it was a few decades ago and before. In the larger cities, a more American-style diet can be found in the younger generation, where children drink soda, eat donuts, and are raised on milk formulas. But in my area, probably 80% or more of the people do not have a taste for soda. They don't like it.

What do you think soda pop does for your bones? Milk is falsely advertised as a good source of calcium. Asians do not have the levels of osteoporosis that Americans, who drink far more milk, have. But Asians have their vices too. In some parts, betel nut is a problem, and causes mouth and throat cancers as well as tooth decay and loss of teeth. Obviously, this has nothing to do with calcium intake. People here get plenty of green leafy vegetables in their diet, multiple times more than the average American. This provides a stable source of calcium.

I have watched a DVD of the China Study. It was good. It was not entirely balanced, focusing on strictly the vegan concept in places, but it contains much truth.

Got balance? smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/30/13 06:56 AM

You've watched a video, but not read the book, so you can give a balanced review?
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/30/13 07:15 AM

Interesting recent post:
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=157728#Post157728
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/30/13 07:34 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
You've watched a video, but not read the book, so you can give a balanced review?
I wasn't giving a review, and no I couldn't give a review for a book I don't have and don't have access to. smile

I can give a legitimate answer as to my opinion of what I saw, which was called "Forks Over Knives."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/30/13 07:55 PM

Even worse:

APL: And this exposure has made them healthier, right? Hm - read, "The China Study".

Green: I have watched a DVD of the China Study.
Green: I can give a legitimate answer as to my opinion of what I saw, which was called "Forks Over Knives."

Green watched a video which mentioned many things including a reference about the China Study.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/30/13 08:09 PM

But let's analyze what he said.

Green: It is a fact that people in Asia are growing taller now with better nutrition. Consumption of milk may be a part of that.

But a little later:

Green: Milk is falsely advertised as a good source of calcium. Asians do not have the levels of osteoporosis that Americans, who drink far more milk, have.

Maybe he's saying if you drink a lot of milk, it's bad, but yet milk provides "better nutrition" allowing you to grow much taller than without? But yet again, if it's "better nutrition", this "better nutrition" causes problems. Things that make you go hmmmm.

Green: Asians, like everyone, are facing a host of health problems today of which they were either not aware or did not experience in the past.

But a little later:

Green: probably 80% or more of the people do not have a taste for soda....Asians do not have the levels of osteoporosis that Americans, who drink far more milk, have.

Maybe even though he sounded like it, he's not connecting "a host of health problems" with osteoporosis"? Maybe he's saying that growing taller is one of the host of health problems? Who knows.


Green, get tested for B12 deficiency. Even if you've never done it before. The people you interact/conflict with over there will appreciate it!
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/30/13 08:22 PM

kland quoting Green: probably 80% or more of the people do not have a taste for soda....Asians do not have the levels of osteoporosis that Americans, who drink far more milk, have.

Does milk help prevent osteoporosis? The fact is, milk intake correlates with higher incidence of hip fracture. Milk does not build strong bones. Asians are quickly catching up with Americans in heart disease, diabetes and cancers as they adopt the SAD - standard american diet.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/31/13 06:31 AM

Both of you like to misconstrue what I'm saying, but in the above two posts, APL does a better job of representing the truth. Thank you.

Milk is definitely not the answer for treating osteoporosis, as I was trying to point out in my post. In this, I agree with APL.

Let me make one thing clear: Americans do not use milk moderately. They use it excessively.

Milk, in moderate amounts, such as Asians might exemplify, does not contribute to hip fractures. Osteoporosis, however, may have other causes. Mrs. White points out one of the biggest: mercury. She says mercury causes "rottenness in the bones."

Asians eat a large amount of sea foods, and sea foods contain higher levels of mercury. So if Asians begin to see a higher incidence of ailments such as osteoporosis, milk cannot be made the scapegoat.

Again, it is a fact that Asians today are receiving better nutrition, and growing taller, than in past generations. No one can rule out milk as being a part of that, because milk is one of the changes that has come in simultaneous to this phenomenon.

Too much of a good thing is bad. Too little of a good thing is also bad.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/31/13 08:37 AM

There is real common sense in dietetic reform. The subject should be studied broadly and deeply, and no one should criticize others because their practice is not, in all things, in harmony with his own. It is impossible to make an unvarying rule to regulate everyone's habits, and no one should think himself a criterion for all. Not all can eat the same things. Foods that are palatable and wholesome to one person may be distasteful, and even harmful, to another. Some cannot use milk, while others thrive on it. Some persons cannot digest peas and beans; others find them wholesome. For some the coarser grain preparations are good food, while others cannot use them. {MH 319.2}

Those who live in new countries or in poverty-stricken districts, where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary. It is true that persons in full flesh and in whom the animal passions are strong need to avoid the use of stimulating foods. Especially in families of children who are given to sensual habits, eggs should not be used. But in the case of persons whose blood-making organs are feeble,--especially if other foods to supply the needed elements cannot be obtained,--milk and eggs should not be wholly discarded. Great care should be taken, however, to obtain milk from healthy cows, and eggs from healthy fowls, that are well fed and well cared for; and the eggs should be so cooked as to be most easily digested. {MH 320.1}

The diet reform should be progressive. As disease in animals increases, the use of milk and eggs will become more and more unsafe. An effort should be made to supply their place with other things that are healthful and inexpensive. The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable. {MH 320.2}

It is a mistake to suppose that muscular strength depends on the use of animal food. The needs of the system can be better supplied, and more vigorous health can be enjoyed, without its use. The grains, with fruits, nuts, and vegetables, contain all the nutritive properties necessary to make good blood. These elements are not so well or so fully supplied by a flesh diet. Had the use of flesh been essential to health and strength, animal food would have been included in the diet appointed man in the beginning. {MH 316.2}

Talk about balance! POINT:"The subject should be studied broadly and deeply, and no one should criticize others because their practice is not, in all things, in harmony with his own." POINT:"Some cannot use milk". POINT:"new countries or in poverty-stricken districts, where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary." POINT:"The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible". POINT:"But in the case of persons whose blood-making organs are feeble,--especially if other foods to supply the needed elements cannot be obtained,--milk and eggs should not be wholly discarded." POINT:"The grains, with fruits, nuts, and vegetables, contain all the nutritive properties necessary to make good blood." Repeat: "The subject should be studied broadly and deeply, and no one should criticize others because their practice is not, in all things, in harmony with his own."
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/31/13 09:00 AM

Note that Ellen White never classes milk and eggs with flesh foods, or "animal food" in the quote above. In saying "grains, with fruits, nuts, and vegetables" she is contrasting a vegetarian (not vegan) diet with one consisting of meat. Eggs are not "meat."

APL, I have three questions for you:

1) Where in "grains, fruits, nuts, and vegetables" have you found a source of B12?
2) Do you need B12 for good blood?
3) Why does Mrs. White say the most healthful diet includes a little milk or cream?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 10/31/13 06:44 PM

Green - in this day, is getting B12 for vegans, and issue? NO, it does not need to be!

This whole thread started by you is in violation of EGW's direct statement to not criticize others for their diet, particularly in those that have intelligently studied the subject. This you have done constantly, and quite honestly, this attitude has the potential for harm. Not everyone needs to eat your diet. I'm happy you feel secure in your beliefs. And I don't care what you eat, as I have repeatedly said. EGW: "The subject should be studied broadly and deeply, and no one should criticize others because their practice is not, in all things, in harmony with his own." If you believe that we are in the true end times, then follow EGW's advise! "Let the diet reform be progressive. Let the people be taught how to prepare food without the use of milk or butter. Tell them that the time will soon come when there will be no safety in using eggs, milk, cream, or butter, because disease in animals is increasing in proportion to the increase of wickedness among men. The time is near when, because of the iniquity of the fallen race, the whole animal creation will groan under the diseases that curse our earth." {7T 135.1}
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/01/13 12:08 AM

But Green only feeeels he is getting B12 from eggs. He neither knows how much is in eggs, how much he needs, nor how much is assimilated from eggs. And it is apparent that he has never been tested for B12. It appears that he self-diagnosed himself, and feeeelt that he was deficient, ate what he wanted (eggs), and "self-cured" himself. All by feeling. And then implies that Ellen White said you can get B12 from eggs, which she never said.

Originally Posted By: APL
Does milk help prevent osteoporosis? The fact is, milk intake correlates with higher incidence of hip fracture. Milk does not build strong bones. Asians are quickly catching up with Americans in heart disease, diabetes and cancers as they adopt the SAD - standard american diet.

Originally Posted By: Green
Again, it is a fact that Asians today are receiving better nutrition, and growing taller, than in past generations. No one can rule out milk as being a part of that, because milk is one of the changes that has come in simultaneous to this phenomenon.
Green, do you disagree with APL's statement?
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/01/13 12:49 AM

kland - Green once claimed that he had pernicious anemia, and that eggs cured it. Was he tested for this? No idea, but eggs will not cure pernicious anemia, because pernicious anemia is not caused by low intake of B12 but lack of intrinsic factor which is necessary for the absorption of B12. Green very well may have had B12 deficiency. That fact does not make all vegans B12 deficient. I have had my B12 measured and that after switching to a plant based diet nearly 7 years before, and my B12 was above normal limits, just barely, but still, not deficient. And I did not take any B12 supplement and that being a reason I wanted to know where I was at. I've looked at this issue from many points, and B12 is not the problem Green would like to make it in the U.S. The biggest issue with Green is the insistence that if people do not eat his diet, then they are brain damaged. This is a violation of EGW's recommendation not to criticize others because their practice is not, in all things, in harmony with his own.

The body of evidence is that a plant based diet simply prepared will reverse and prevent most of our chronic illnesses.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/01/13 05:57 AM

I don't remember ever saying I had pernicious anemia, but if I did, I should have said megaloblastic anemia. Pernicious anemia is one form of megaloblastic anemia, but there are other forms.

I was never tested, so far as I am aware, specifically for B12. The blood tests were of the more usual variety with such things as MCV, etc. (Note that it was a vegan doctor who ran the blood test on me, and perhaps he knew better than to open the case with B12.) I am not a doctor. It is quite possible that I have not fully understood things in their correct light relative to the diagnoses I was given. I know simply that the vegan doctor who first looked at the test said that there was nothing wrong with me, and that if I was experiencing fatigue, it must be due to lack of exercise. I was, however, not at all short on exercise in that period of my life. It may have been, in fact, one of the most active periods of my life. I was working outdoors half of the day, in addition to other sports activities, hiking, etc. that I enjoyed at that time. I phoned the results of the blood test to another doctor, and received a more correct diagnosis. It was clear that the vegan doctor did not wish to admit that the vegan diet had brought me to such a condition.

Health reform or health deform? Let the reader decide. I know simply that the eggs brought me out of the condition I was in when nothing else could have--a condition I had never experienced prior to becoming vegan, nor have ever experienced after leaving veganism.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/01/13 07:12 AM

I should add that I had only early stages. I did not have the condition for an extended period of time. I was vegan for only about 7 months or so when the condition began, and it was quickly arrested with the reintroduction of eggs into my diet. There was never a fully conclusive diagnosis, but I remember that pernicious anemia was the major suspect. In my own later research, I confirmed what others here have suggested, that it likely was not pernicious anemia, but another form of megaloblastic anemia due to B12 deficiency. In any case, eggs "make good blood" according to Mrs. White, and this proved true in my case.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Do not go to extremes in regard to the health reform. Some of our people are very careless in regard to health reform. But because some are far behind, you must not, in order to be an example to them, be an extremist. You must not deprive yourself of that class of food which makes good blood. Your devotion to true principles is leading you to submit yourself to a diet which is giving you an experience that will not recommend health reform. This is your danger. When you see that you are becoming weak physically, it is essential for you to make changes, and at once. Put into your diet something you have left out. It is your duty to do this. Get eggs of healthy fowls. Use these eggs cooked or raw. Drop them uncooked into the best unfermented wine you can find. This will supply that which is necessary to your system. Do not for a moment suppose that it will not be right to do this. . . . {TSDF 40.4}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/01/13 07:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I don't remember ever saying I had pernicious anemia, but if I did, I should have said megaloblastic anemia. Pernicious anemia is one form of megaloblastic anemia, but there are other forms.

I was never tested, so far as I am aware, specifically for B12. The blood tests were of the more usual variety with such things as MCV, etc. (Note that it was a vegan doctor who ran the blood test on me, and perhaps he knew better than to open the case with B12.) I am not a doctor. It is quite possible that I have not fully understood things in their correct light relative to the diagnoses I was given. I know simply that the vegan doctor who first looked at the test said that there was nothing wrong with me, and that if I was experiencing fatigue, it must be due to lack of exercise. I was, however, not at all short on exercise in that period of my life. It may have been, in fact, one of the most active periods of my life. I was working outdoors half of the day, in addition to other sports activities, hiking, etc. that I enjoyed at that time. I phoned the results of the blood test to another doctor, and received a more correct diagnosis. It was clear that the vegan doctor did not wish to admit that the vegan diet had brought me to such a condition.

Health reform or health deform? Let the reader decide. I know simply that the eggs brought me out of the condition I was in when nothing else could have--a condition I had never experienced prior to becoming vegan, nor have ever experienced after leaving veganism.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
You may not remember, but review message #142051 - 05/05/12 11:21 PM. In it you said, "In my case, the disease had a clinical name: pernicious anemia. It had clinical symptoms like numbness and tingling in the hands, lack of taste, smell, and appetite, memory loss, low energy levels, etc."

We then had a number of message exchanged where you exposed your lack of understanding of the disease processes associated with B12, and I tried to educate you. NOW, you say you were never tested! Amazing.

You then went on in subsequent messages to talk about vegans women and cancer. You recently brought it up again mentioning cervical cancer, though the science is not in your favor as the best study that looks at vegan women have lower incidence of a lower incident of female cancers including cervical, something I note you refuse to acknowledge. From this whole interaction on B12 with you, it is clear you don't know what actually happened to you, you believe that eggs fixed it and that fine for you. But your experience does not equal the experience of others, thus you should follow EGW's directions, "The subject should be studied broadly and deeply, and no one should criticize others because their practice is not, in all things, in harmony with his own."
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/01/13 07:42 AM

APL,

You can be a vegan. I don't criticize you for it. I criticize, rightly, vegans who teach others that they should be vegans too. In our modern Adventist movement, many are taking extreme views on this topic and urging them upon others. I am trying to uphold balance, and to alert people to the fact that we are never counseled to give up milk and eggs until God reveals to us that it is time to do so.

I have asked you several times if God has revealed this to you...and you have not answered. You, as many do, seem to base your diet upon your own opinion of the times. That is between you and God.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/01/13 08:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

You can be a vegan. I don't criticize you for it. I criticize, rightly, vegans who teach others that they should be vegans too. In our modern Adventist movement, many are taking extreme views on this topic and urging them upon others. I am trying to uphold balance, and to alert people to the fact that we are never counseled to give up milk and eggs until God reveals to us that it is time to do so.

I have asked you several times if God has revealed this to you...and you have not answered. You, as many do, seem to base your diet upon your own opinion of the times. That is between you and God.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Have you taken care of patients with heart disease, kidney disease, strokes, autoimmune disease, gastrointestinal disease, cancers? No. You do not even know what disease you had! "Megaloblastic Anemia" is a description, not a diagnosis. You have not seen people spared the knife because their heart disease is reversed. Autoimmune diseases reversed. Do you want 40 scientific papers on the effect of neuraminic acid 5GC (Neu5Gc) on heart disease, cancer, flu, and e-coli infections? Neu5Gc comes only from animal sources such as milk and red meat. You had a problem, so your problem becomes everyone else's problem. EGW's instruction is to teach everyone to cook without the things you love. I do that. I have 4 physicians right now that I have worked with to help them reverse their heart disease. One will most likely be spared a heart transplant! He has made great improvement already. What is more extreme? Eating right or having your chest cut open and your heart changed out? I think the choice is clear.

Green said, "You can be a vegan. I don't criticize you for it." Ah - would you like for me to quote you some of your past statements? Perhaps the title of this thread would remind you???
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/01/13 08:44 AM

APL,

If you, knowing everything you know and could know about health choose to become deficient in that which you need through extremism, there is one who criticizes you, and it's not me. I have tried here to present the statements. I am not in a position to judge individual choices. But it appears even in your post here that your choices are far from individual. You are teaching others in accordance with your own extreme views.

Mrs. White had something to say about that.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
We appreciate your experience as a physician, and yet I say that milk and eggs should be included in your diet. These things cannot at present be dispensed with, and the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught. {TSDF 49.1}
You are in danger of taking too radical a view of health reform, and of prescribing for yourself a diet that will not sustain you. {TSDF 49.2}
...
God calls upon those for whom Christ died to take proper care of themselves, and set a right example to others. My brother, you are not to make a test for the people of God upon the question of diet; for they will lose confidence in teachings that are strained to the farthest point of extension. The Lord desires His people to be sound on every point in health reform, but we must not go to extremes. {TSDF 49.4}


Mrs. White had a right to say these things which is above my own right to determine for anyone. Do you accept her counsels?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/01/13 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
The body of evidence is that a plant based diet simply prepared will reverse and prevent most of our chronic illnesses.


True statement. I agree with this. In fact, many would do quite well to fast for several days to a week in order to find healing from their chronic illnesses. However, one cannot sustain life long-term by fasting. It might also be that one needs other nutrients like B12 in order to have long-term health, a nutrient which is not available in plant foods.

As to "scientific evidences" for things, consider that scientists did not know that tobacco was bad for you in Mrs. White's day. Doctors sometimes prescribed it as a remedy. But Mrs. White was unscientific. She said it was not healthful. Her words are now proven true. God always knows best. Therefore, as God has instructed us not to give up milk and eggs too early, and that He will tell us when it is time to do so, I wait in faith for that moment, and do not wish to run ahead of my Lord.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/01/13 04:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

If you, knowing everything you know and could know about health choose to become deficient in that which you need through extremism, there is one who criticizes you, and it's not me.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Green - what am I deficient in? I have told you I have been tested and have been found to be high in B12. You have no idea what your B12 level is or was by your own admission. Today we can monitor this particular vitamin by several tests. Did you go back and read our discussion from a year and a half ago? Has your knowledge of the subject improved? It is hard to tell. Your accusations are baseless. EGW's recommendations were balanced. She described those that need to not be forced to give up certain things because of their living conditions. You want to make that apply to all situations. The truth remains, she said to teach ALL how to cook without your beloved food items. YOu have stated you will not follow her advice. Is that wise?
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/01/13 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I was never tested, so far as I am aware, specifically for B12....
I know simply that the vegan doctor who first looked at the test said that there was nothing wrong with me...
I phoned the results of the blood test to another doctor, and received a more correct diagnosis....
And you know it was right because it agreed with what you wanted?

Quote:
I know simply that the eggs brought me out of the condition I was in when nothing else could have--a condition I had never experienced prior to becoming vegan, nor have ever experienced after leaving veganism.
And that's how you view science is done.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I should add that I had only early stages.
Early stages? Early stages of what? Early stages of lack of eggs?

Quote:
I did not have the condition for an extended period of time. I was vegan for only about 7 months or so when the condition began,
wow. I had no idea B12 deficiency could happen so quickly! not.

Quote:
There was never a fully conclusive diagnosis,
No comment needed there!

Quote:
In any case, eggs "make good blood" according to Mrs. White, and this proved true in my case.
Proved true your view of how science is done?

Quote:
APL,

If you, knowing everything you know and could know about health choose to become deficient in that which you need through extremism, there is one who criticizes you, and it's not me.
And you say not eating eggs is "extremism"?
Seems like you have an extreme view to me!

Quote:
But it appears even in your post here that your choices are far from individual. You are teaching others in accordance with your own extreme views.
His one "extreme views" that you are wrong? I never saw him starting a thread calling others brain damaged. I never saw him spouting out how everyone should give up eggs. I only saw him saying that your extreme views are wrong. And you mean that to mean he is "teaching others" his extreme views? Only view I see is that you are wrong. How can one person be so wrong on so many topics unless they do have a damaged brain.

Quote:
These things cannot at present be dispensed with,

I don't suppose it do any good talking again about "present" and teaching how to cook without, etc. because if you cannot understand "another than Joshua", how could you understand giving up something you want to eat?
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/01/13 06:02 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
The biggest issue with Green is the insistence that if people do not eat his diet, then they are brain damaged.
Thwaaackkk!

That's the sound an arrow makes hitting the bulls eye dead on!
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/01/13 06:18 PM

Originally Posted By: green
I did not have the condition for an extended period of time. I was vegan for only about 7 months or so when the condition began,

Originally Posted By: kland
wow. I had no idea B12 deficiency could happen so quickly! not.
Indeed NOT!!!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/03/13 06:03 AM

Your liver may be stronger than mine was. B12 can be stored for a couple of years in some individuals or as little as six months in others. I ended up on the short end of the continuum. But for many vegans, their natural intake of folate and/or folic acid will prevent the symptoms of the B12 deficiency and they will not realize they are deficient so soon.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/03/13 08:21 AM

But you were never tested to see what you really had... But I'm glad you have found a solution to your problem. But your problem does not equate to everyone else.

p.s., have you updated your facts on cancer and vegans yet?
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 11/04/13 04:53 PM

Solution to his problem?

But WAS his problem?!
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/10/14 08:30 PM

http://www.secretsunsealed.org/en-us/resources/healtharticles.aspx

What about Eggs?

Only three eggs per week is enough to cause significant atherosclerotic plaque build up in your arteries leading to strokes, heart attacks, bypass surgeries and death.

No one who wants to preserve their health should eat eggs according to these leading medical specialists.

One large egg has 275mg of cholesterol.

Eating eggs is a very dangerous thing to do.

Compared to men who ate no eggs those who ate less than one egg per day had a 200% increase in the spread of their prostate cancer.

"Cancers, tumors, and all inflammatory diseases are largely caused by meat eating" Counsels on diet and foods, p. 388.

But, apparently choline does the same thing!

So not only are eggs bad for your heart, but as far as cancer is concerned, eating eggs is the same as eating red meat!

People who eat just one and a half eggs per week will have five times as much colon cancer than those who eat less than one egg per month. That is a 500% increase in colon cancer with only one and a half eggs per week! And, moderate egg consumption triples the risk of bladder cancer. Eating eggs is a very high-risk activity!

People who eat one egg per day increase their risk of death by 25%, but diabetics who eat one egg per day have a 200% increased risk of death. So, eating eggs can give you diabetes, but if you are already a diabetic eating eggs is really dangerous!

These viruses can infect eggs. A recent random sample from 250 different sources collected from grocery stores showed 14% of the eggs to be infected with these viruses.

The time will come when we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs

As disease in animals increases, the use of milk and eggs will become more and more unsafe.

Tell them that the time will soon come when there will be no safety in using eggs, milk, cream, or butter, because disease in animals is increasing

I wish to say that when the time comes that it is no longer safe to use milk, cream, butter, and eggs, God will reveal this.

Is the abundant scientific light now shining on this topic God's way of revealing this?

Again and again I have been shown that God is trying to lead us back, step by step, to His original design,-- that man should subsist upon the natural products of the earth. Vegetables, fruits, and grains should compose our diet.

Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/21/14 12:17 PM

Here's a little piece from the CDC on B12 deficiency.

Originally Posted By: CDC (Course WB1349)
Introduction

Vitamin B12 (cobalamin) deficiency should be on your radar screen for several reasons. Prevention, early detection, and treatment of vitamin B deficiency are important public health issues, because they are essential to prevent development of irreversible neurologic damage which can impact quality of life. Although most health care providers already recognize the occasional person who presents with obvious signs and symptoms, they are far less likely to screen and diagnose the majority of patients who have a subclinical or mildly symptomatic vitamin B12 deficiency. Vitamin B12 deficiency is more common among older adults than many health care providers realize. Unpublished analysis at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) of laboratory data from community- based samples of U.S. adults 51 years of age or older suggest about 1 (3.2%) of every 31 persons have serum vitamin B12 levels below 200 picograms per milliliter (pg/mL).

Vitamin B12 has profound effects on human health. Adequate body stores are essential for several crucial neurologic and hematologic functions. Delays in the diagnosis and treatment of vitamin B12 deficiencies can lead to development of severe, irreversible neurologic damage.

The clinical importance of vitamin B12 was established over 50 years ago, when ingesting raw animal liver (the primary storage organ for vitamin B12) was found to be an effective treatment for pernicious anemia. Research has shown that the water-soluble vitamin B12 is required for the completion of several biochemical processes (see Figure 1).

The following five top things to remember about vitamin B12 in primary care practice summarize the implications of these and other cobalamin-related findings.

Vitamin B12 Deficiency

The top five things to remember about vitamin B12
  1. Vitamin B12 deficiencies occur in adults 51 years of age or older at a frequency of 1 (3.2%) in every 31 persons, and manifest as serum vitamin B12 levels below the cutpoint of 200 picograms per milliliter.
  2. All patients with unexplained hematologic or neurologic signs or symptoms should be evaluated for a vitamin B12 deficiency. If found, the cause should should be determined.
  3. Today, megaloblastic anemia is most likely due to vitamin B12 deficiency and needs prompt evaluation. In the United States, folic acid fortification has made folate deficient megaloblastic anemia a very rare condition.
  4. Although the body’s ability to absorb naturally occurring vitamin B12 decreases with age, most people can readily use the synthetic form of cobalamin.
  5. All people 51 years of age or older should get most of their daily vitamin B12 through supplements containing vitamin B12 or foods fortified with vitamin B12.


So, doctors are now learning that "Delays in the diagnosis and treatment of vitamin B12 deficiencies can lead to development of severe, irreversible neurologic damage."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/21/14 12:34 PM

If you click on the link I provided as the source of the quote in my post above, you will see the full PDF of lecture material for doctors on this subject. A portion of the test given those doctors following the course is provided below, for those of you who would like to outclass the medical professionals. wink

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/21/14 12:46 PM

While the CDC apparently thinks only about 3% of people are deficient in vitamin B12, Dr. Mercola puts that figure at 25%. His article is well worth reading, so I'm copying it in below.

By Dr. Mercola

Vitamin B12, or rather a lack thereof, has been called the "canary in the coalmine" for your future brain health, and recent research has bolstered the importance of this vitamin in keeping your mind sharp as you age.

According to the latest research, people with high levels of markers for vitamin B12 deficiency were more likely to score lower on cognitive tests, as well as have a smaller total brain volume, which suggests a lack of the vitamin may lead to brain shrinkage.

This issue is of paramount importance for many of you reading this for two reasons:

  1. Vitamin B12 deficiency is very widespread
  2. Your blood level of vitamin B12 is not an adequate marker of whether or not you're deficient, making vitamin B12 deficiency easy to miss

What is Vitamin B12?

Vitamin B12 is a powerhouse micronutrient often known as the "energy vitamin" because it assists in energy production.

Your body relies on the efficient conversion of carbohydrates to glucose -- your body's source of fuel -- to run smoothly, and vitamin B12 plays a major role in that conversion. B12 also enables your body to convert fatty acids into energy. Further, your B12 level impacts a number of very important functions in your body, including:

Carbohydrate and fat metabolism Healthy nervous system function Promotion of normal nerve growth and development
Help with regulation of the formation of red blood cells Cell formation and longevity Proper circulation
Adrenal hormone production Healthy immune system function Support of female reproductive health and pregnancy
Feelings of well-being and mood regulation Mental clarity, concentration, memory function Physical, emotional and mental energy

Problems with Memory, Brain Function Top Signs of Vitamin B12 Deficiency

Mental fogginess and problems with memory are two of the top warning signs that you have vitamin B12 deficiency, and this is indicative of its importance for your brain health.  

In addition to the latest Neurology study, which found more signs of shrinkage of brain tissue among those with low vitamin B12, a Finnish study published in Neurology last year found that people who consume foods rich in B12 may reduce their risk of Alzheimer's in their later years. For each unit increase in the marker of vitamin B12 (holotranscobalamin) the risk of developing Alzheimer's was reduced by 2 percent. Research also shows that supplementing with B vitamins, including B12, helps to slow brain atrophy in elderly people with mild cognitive impairment (brain atrophy is a well-established characteristic of Alzheimer's disease).

What Causes B12 Deficiency?

Vitamin B12 is the largest vitamin that we know of. Because of its large size, it is not easily absorbed passively like most supplements. Because of this, many, if not most oral B12 supplements are worthless and do NOT work. Vitamin B12 requires a complex system in your body involving intrinsic factor to bind to it so it can be actively absorbed in the end of your small intestine (terminal ileum). As you grow older the ability to produce intrinsic factor decreases and cause a deficiency state.

Studies from the U.S. Framingham trial show one in four adults are deficient in vitamin B12, and nearly half the population has suboptimal blood levels. If you eat an all vegetarian or vegan diet, vitamin B12 is one of the nutrients your body is most likely deficient in, as it is naturally present in foods that come from animals, including meat, fish, eggs, milk and milk products. However, there are many other causes of B12 deficiency as well, including:

  • Food-Cobalamin Malabsorption Syndrome: This condition results when your stomach lining loses its ability to produce intrinsic factor, a protein that binds to vitamin B12 and allows your body to absorb it into your bloodstream at the furthest point of your small intestine.

    Intrinsic factor is a protein made by your stomach. It grabs onto the B12 molecule and together they move through your stomach to your small intestine. When they reach the end of your small intestine, the intrinsic factor is absorbed first, pulling the B12 with it into the cells of your large intestine, where they are absorbed for use by the rest of your body.

  • Increasing Age: Intrinsic factor diminishes as you age, and this means it's virtually impossible to get B12 from your diet. This also means the older you get, the more likely you will need to supplement B12.
  • Use of the drug metformin for Type 2 diabetes: Use of metformin (brand names include Glucophage, Glucophage XR, Fortamet, Riomet, and Glumetza) may inhibit your B12 absorption, especially at higher doses.
  • Coffee consumption: Four or more cups of coffee a day can reduce your B vitamin stores by as much as 15 percent.
  • Use of antacids: The use of antacids or anti-ulcer drugs will lower your stomach acid secretion and decrease your ability to absorb vitamin B12. Stomach acid (hydrochloric acid) is a crucial ingredient in your body's ability to absorb B12. If you're taking a medication specifically designed to reduce the amount of stomach acid you produce, your body's ability to use vitamin B12 from the food you eat or the supplements you take will be significantly compromised.
  • Gastric bypass surgery
  • Exposure to nitrous oxide (laughing gas)

Why a Blood Test May Not be Enough to Detect Deficiency

Blood tests for vitamin B12 deficiency aren't as clear cut or helpful as they are for other nutritional deficiencies. Standard tests to assess vitamin B12 concentrations are limited because the clinical severity of vitamin B12 deficiency is unrelated to vitamin B12 concentrations. As researchers concluded in Neurology:

"Concentrations of all vitamin B12-related markers, but not serum vitamin B12 itself, were associated with global cognitive function and with total brain volume."

So generally speaking, you can use the following recommendations to screen for vitamin B12 deficiency:

  • If your vitamin B12 concentration is less than 150 pmol/L, you are considered B12 deficient and you and your health care practitioner should take steps to determine the underlying cause(s) and treatment.
  • If your B12 concentration is between 150 and 200 pmol/L, your serum MMA (Methylmalonic Acid) level should be determined to identify whether your situation requires more investigation and treatment. Research suggests elevated levels of MMA (a natural compound found in your body) are an indicator for vitamin B12 deficiency.

However, if you suspect or are concerned you are vitamin B12 deficient, a more practical option may be to simply supplement your diet with B12 and see if your symptoms improve.

B12 is available in its natural form only in animal food sources. These include seafood, beef, chicken, pork, milk, eggs. If you don't consume enough of these animal products (and I don't recommend consuming seafood unless you know it is from a pure water source) to get an adequate supply of B12, or if your body's ability to absorb the vitamin from food is compromised, vitamin B12 supplementation is completely non-toxic and inexpensive, especially when compared to the cost of laboratory testing.

In fact, the first treatment most doctors and other health care experts will suggest upon receiving B12 deficiency lab test results is supplementation with vitamin B12. I recommend either an under-the-tongue fine mist spray, as this technology helps you absorb it into the fine capillaries under your tongue. This delivery system bypasses the intrinsic factor problem and is much easier, safer and less painful than having your doctor inject you with a vitamin B12 shot.

Signs and Symptoms to Watch For

Besides the above-mentioned mental fogginess and memory problems, there are actually a wide range of symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency, from mild to severe, which can affect your body, mind and mood. In general, the signs are:

  • Fatigue, lack of energy, muscle weakness, tingling in your extremities
  • Mental fogginess or problems with your memory, trouble sleeping
  • Mood swings, especially feelings of apathy or lack of motivation
Depression Dementia and Alzheimer's
Anemia Neurological and Neuropsychiatric conditions
Female fertility and childbearing problems Heart disease and cancer

Other symptoms of long-term, chronic B12 deficiency are included in the chart above. Even though vitamin B12 is water-soluble, it doesn't exit your body quickly like other water-soluble vitamins. B12 is stored in your liver, kidneys and other body tissues, and as a result, a deficiency may not show itself for a number of years until you finally run out of this naturally stored internal source of the vitamin.

This time lag in seeing symptoms of a B12 deficiency is a serious concern, because after about seven years of deficiency, irreversible brain damage can potentially result. So if you are suffering from any of the symptoms above it makes sense to take steps to increase your levels to protect your long-term brain, and overall, health.

IMPORTANT B12 Summary: Please Remember…

If you believe you need a vitamin B12 supplement, don't hesitate to take one. They are very safe and there are virtually no known side effects. However, avoid oral B12 supplements as they will not be easily absorbed. You can take an injection or do a far easier sublingual (under your tongue) spray that allows the large B12 structure to bypass your intestine and be absorbed directly into your blood stream, allowing you to benefit immediately.  


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/27/19 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by APL
Look at the title of this thread to get Green's bias. Green has stated and to my knowledge not retracted his claim that vegans have higher the incidence of cervical cancer. Yet the only real study to look at vegans and female cancers including cervical cancer shows a decrease incidence. Does green even know what the cause of cervical cancer is?

EGW was balanced on the subject.

I just ran across this post again, and thought I'd try a more careful search on Google. This still did not turn up the original facts I had seen relative to vegans, but it shows findings from the EPIC-Oxford study, published in The British Journal of Cancer (2009), demonstrating the trend in cervical cancer rates from meat eaters (1.00), to pescatarians (2.05), then to vegetarians (2.08), whom I would assume in this statistic to be of the lacto-ovo variety.

Quote
Table 22. Risk for Cervical Cancer
StudyYearsRisk and Confidence IntervalAdjustmentsNotes
EPIC-Oxford141993-2006
Non-Vega1.00
Vegetarians 2.08 (1.05, 4.12)
Pescob2.05 (  .91, 4.63)
age, gender, smoking, alcohol, BMI, physical activity, parity, oral contraceptives, method of recruitmentIncidence
aExcluding those who ate no meat other than fish.
bAte no meat other than fish.
14. Key TJ, Appleby PN, Spencer EA, Travis RC, Allen NE, Thorogood M, Mann JI. Cancer incidence in British vegetarians. Br J Cancer. 2009 Jul 7;101(1):192-7. Epub 2009 Jun 16.




Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/27/19 12:41 PM

The paper you reference does not speak of VEGANS. And speaking of cervical cancer, and cancer caused by a virus:

The risk for cancer of the cervix was significantly higher among vegetarians than among meat eaters, with a similar (non-significantly) high risk among the fish eaters. The principal cause of cervical cancer is human papillomavirus. Dietary factors have been suspected of influencing risk, but no firm conclusions have been drawn (Garc?a-Closas et al, 2005). The increased risks observed in non-meat eaters were based on only 50 cases overall and might be due to non-dietary factors, such as differences in attendance for cervical cancer screening, or to chance.

50 cases, and this is not even speaking of VEGANS.

The conclusion of the paper:

In conclusion, this study suggests that the incidence of all malignant neoplasms combined may be lower among both fish eaters and vegetarians than among meat eaters. The most striking finding was the relatively low risk for cancers of the lymphatic and haematopoietic tissues among vegetarians.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/27/19 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by APL
The paper you reference does not speak of VEGANS. And speaking of cervical cancer, and cancer caused by a virus:

The risk for cancer of the cervix was significantly higher among vegetarians than among meat eaters, with a similar (non-significantly) high risk among the fish eaters. The principal cause of cervical cancer is human papillomavirus. Dietary factors have been suspected of influencing risk, but no firm conclusions have been drawn (Garc?a-Closas et al, 2005). The increased risks observed in non-meat eaters were based on only 50 cases overall and might be due to non-dietary factors, such as differences in attendance for cervical cancer screening, or to chance.

50 cases, and this is not even speaking of VEGANS.

The conclusion of the paper:

In conclusion, this study suggests that the incidence of all malignant neoplasms combined may be lower among both fish eaters and vegetarians than among meat eaters. The most striking finding was the relatively low risk for cancers of the lymphatic and haematopoietic tissues among vegetarians.

I realize it does not speak of vegans. I didn't claim it did. Its conclusions, however, would tend to corroborate a finding of higher incidence of cervical cancer for vegans as compared with meat eaters. Any vegans in this study would have been lumped into the "vegetarian" group, and there were likely some in that group.

Since you read the study so well, you must have noticed that the lead author disclosed his conflict of interest as being a member of the Vegetarian Society. This is why he downplays the connection that the study found.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/27/19 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
Since you read the study so well, you must have noticed that the lead author disclosed his conflict of interest as being a member of the Vegetarian Society. This is why he downplays the connection that the study found.
So Green,
Why did present it?
dunno
Posted By: Rick H

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/28/19 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by APL
Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
Originally Posted by APL
Quote: use eggs of hens which are well cared for and suitably fed.

Where do you get your eggs? Do you grow them yourself? Or do you buy them in the market where most are grown in poor conditions? Do you follow this advise yourself?

I do. Most of the hens around here are quite free range. There are no fences, and there are plenty of dogs. The dogs rarely bother them.

Last year I raised over five dozen hens. smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Good for you! Now, let's say you move back to the U.S. What would you recommend the city dweller to do?

You do acknowledge that EGW said that there are certain people that should not eat eggs, right? Of course, this whole line of talk have been covered before.


Here is a site to check out...https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/28/19 12:54 PM

Rick,

Thank you for that contribution. I went there and read the entire page. Much of what they have is well said and bears repeating. A few things, however, they appear to portray inaccurately. The most egregious of these comes in their final conclusions, where they have said that vegans on a fortified-food diet will have much less chance of deficiency than meat-eaters. I would question that outright, and wonder where they have any researched studies to back it up. It seems to reveal a lack of understanding of how intrinsic factor works.

The second-most egregious inaccuracy comes in the fact the article says nothing about the form of the B12. There are multiple forms, and most of the fortified cereals and foods on the market contain the 99% ineffective cyanocobalamin. It is, in fact, because of the extremely low absorption rates for this form of the vitamin that one must have much, much higher doses of it. A single microgram of cyanocobalamin three times a day is unlikely to meet one's requirements, despite the article suggesting this. Even if two or three thousand times this is injected hypodermically or intramuscularly, bypassing the need of intrinsic factor in the gut, studies have shown that over 90% of it is passed out of the body through the urine within the first 24 hours.

Vegans need to know which supplement to get. Forget about cyanocobalamin. It's cheap and plentiful, but worthless. Hydroxocobalamin is slightly better. Methylcobalamin is much better. It is one of the two co-enzyme forms required by the body. The other of the two actual co-enzyme forms used in the body is adenosylcobalamin. Apparently, each of these serves a different function in the body, and both may be needed in varying amounts. Before it could be of any use to the body, the other B12 forms, like cyanocobalamin, must be converted to methyl- or adenosyl-cobalamin. (The cyanide leftover after this conversion should have negligible effect considering the minute amounts involved--the issue is more that of how efficient the body is at making the conversion in the first place.)

The following was a good reminder, however.

Quote
In adults typical deficiency symptoms include loss of energy, tingling, numbness, reduced sensitivity to pain or pressure, blurred vision, abnormal gait, sore tongue, poor memory, confusion, hallucinations and personality changes. Often these symptoms develop gradually over several months to a year before being recognised as being due to B12 deficiency and they are usually reversible on administration of B12. There is however no entirely consistent and reliable set of symptoms and there are cases of permanent damage in adults from B12 deficiency.


On many points, the article is very helpful on getting people started in understanding about vitamin B12. Some symptoms of deficiency that the article did not mention that could be included in the list are: decreased pain tolerance, back pain, hearing loss, loss of balance/equilibrium (vertigo), depression, and malaise.

A very good website with more information about the importance of B-12, including how it is involved in the metabolic processes in the body to prevent early aging, is here: https://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/adenosylcobalamin-4-facts-know/

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/28/19 02:40 PM

For a more balances view, see:
https://www.theveganrd.com/vegan-nu...ers/vitamin-b12-a-vegan-nutrition-primer

Lots of good references from reputable journals.
Posted By: James Peterson

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/28/19 03:50 PM

 
  • Veganism is a far eastern Hindu dietary philosophy and is usually practiced along with yoga among its strongest adherents and evangelists.
     
  • But when God brought Israel unto Himself into the Promised Land, He told them to EAT MEAT EVERY DAY!
     
  • The disciples were NOT vegetarians.
     
  • And most damnably for those who preach on the rooftops that one ought to be, JESUS CHRIST WAS NOT A VEGETARIAN.
     
  • Perhaps the reason why vegans don't see that is because they have been hit hard with cognitive impairment; which only proves all the more and conclusively that one needs the proper vitamins from natural sources and not from popping pills.


///
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/28/19 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by peterson
which only proves
Whcih actually has proves nothing.....
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/28/19 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by James Peterson
 
  • But when God brought Israel unto Himself into the Promised Land, He told them to EAT MEAT EVERY DAY!
     

Can you give us a reference for this one?
Posted By: James Peterson

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/29/19 01:14 AM

 
A. It's a consequence of the command to the priests in daily service:

Lev. 7:5-7: "It is a trespass offering. Every male among the priests may eat it. It shall be eaten in a holy place. It is most holy. The trespass offering is like the sin offering; there is one law for them both: the priest who makes atonement with it shall have it." Read the entire chapters 6 and 7 for the more detailed prescription.

B. And these two (Deuteronomy 12):

v. 15-16: "However, you may slaughter and eat meat within all your gates, whatever your heart desires, according to the blessing of the Lord your God which He has given you; the unclean and the clean may eat of it, of the gazelle and the deer alike. Only you shall not eat the blood ...

v. 20-21: "When the Lord your God enlarges your border as He has promised you, and you say, Let me eat meat, because you long to eat meat, you may eat as much meat as your heart desires. If the place where the Lord your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, then you may slaughter from your herd and from your flock which the Lord has given you, just as I have commanded you, and you may eat within your gates as much as your heart desires."

///
Posted By: dedication

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/29/19 05:36 AM

It's quite true that the Israelites ate meat,
and yes, Jesus ate fish (and probably lamb, as well) He even provided fish for others to eat.

But we shouldn't imply that God told them they had to eat meat every day.
What those texts refer to is that certain sacrifices were to be eaten by the priests. Their eating of the meat had symbolic meaning as well as providing meat for the priestly groups serving their "shift" in the temple, and who had no "heritage" of land like the rest of Israel. So yes, during their shift they would eat meat every day

The second set of verses refer to the people, who were told they could not eat certain animals -- like the first born of their flocks because they were the Lords, and certain things were to be eaten ONLY in desecrated places and shared with the Levites, again because they had no land inheritance., . But the people were free to eat any of the rest of their animals of their flock, or deer meat, etc., if they "lusted" after meat. God did not prohibited the Israelites from eating meat.


WHY I DO NOT EAT MEAT

1. The quality of meat (especially meat from the market) is questionable. It tends to be filled with hormones, antibiotics, and other chemicals as well as with disease.
2. The production of the meat found in the market, in majority of situations, is horrendously cruel to the animals.
3. The above is true for the production of eggs as well. Unless you have some chickens in your back yard, or your neighbor has some chickens and is willing to share the eggs, , most eggs you buy from the market come from chickens who never see the light of day but are crowded into tiny pens, often stacked three high, where they can't even stretch their wings, Their whole lives is one of torturous existence.
4. While fish have high levels of Omega 3, thus for some people low in that nutrient, they can be quite beneficial, BUT, fish are known to have high concentrations of mercury and other pollutants that can have very detrimental effects.
5. Meat was not part of the original diet -- eating meat requires DEATH and slaughter, and eating dead animals just does NOT appeal to me.

S0 -- what may have been OK for the Israelites is not so OK any more.

Also -- if Green had a medical condition that nutrients in eggs fixed -- that's fine, I have no problem with that.
Healthy eating is about doing what works best for our individual bodies --


But this issue that assigns "cognitive impairment" to vegetarians is a very judgmental and not based on the full facts . I know 90 year olds, who have been strict vegans (no meat, eggs or milk) for over 30 years, who live on garden grown fruit and vegetables, and some nuts and beans, who are bright and sharp as people half their age. While many others of that age and even much younger, who ate lots of eggs and meat are in old folks homes suffering from dementia and can't even recognize their own family members..
Personally, I believe the odds for living a long and productive life are greater for the vegetarians, than for heavy meat, eggs, milk consumers. And it seems studies have shown this to be true.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/29/19 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Dedication
Also -- if Green had a medical condition that nutrients in eggs fixed -- that's fine, I have no problem with that.
Healthy eating is about doing what works best for our individual bodies --


While I appreciate the latitude exhibited here, I would caution that the "medical condition" you attribute to me should not be termed such. It is more of a "human condition." Mrs. White indicates that it is a "very small minority" of people who can cope without milk or eggs.

Just today at church, unexpectedly, I encountered two people with likely B12 deficiency. Both eat meat. The first, a lady, told me she eats chicken maybe three times a week. She has some fish as well, perhaps a little more often. On account of her ailments, she even had gone and gotten an MRI, which showed some weakening in one of her discs between two of her cervical vertebrae. The doctors were content to leave it at that, but when she described her symptoms to me, I knew it went beyond that. She was experiencing some tingling and numbness in her hands--that could possibly be related to pinched nerves in her spine. But her other symptoms aligned more with B12 deficiency: fatigue, depression, forgetfulness, loss of appetite, reduced sense of smell and taste, some vertigo. And a mitigating factor: she may be suffering from stomach ulcers. Her doctor has advised she eat regular meals, without skipping. I reinforced that advice for her. A weak stomach, regardless of diet, will definitely contribute to reduced uptake of vitamin B12. She may send me a photo of her blood test that would help me confirm if she is deficient in B12. I want to see, particularly, her MCV and homocysteine levels, as these are useful flags for B12.

After talking with her, only half an hour later another person came up and asked me for advice about his own ailments. As far as I know, he knew nothing of my earlier conversation with the woman. His symptoms were much like hers, however, with the exception that he did not complain about any issues with his cervical discs, only that he was experiencing pains in his back, and in his sides. I wrote out the same information for him that I had just given the woman.

I guess we need more health education over here. Many of these people really are behind in coming to know the wonderful truths American Adventists are privileged to enjoy. There's just so much that needs to be said, and so little opportunity to say it all! If only we had more of Ellen White's books translated and available in the local language.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Rick H

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/29/19 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by James Peterson
 
  • Veganism is a far eastern Hindu dietary philosophy and is usually practiced along with yoga among its strongest adherents and evangelists.
     
  • But when God brought Israel unto Himself into the Promised Land, He told them to EAT MEAT EVERY DAY!
     
  • The disciples were NOT vegetarians.
     
  • And most damnably for those who preach on the rooftops that one ought to be, JESUS CHRIST WAS NOT A VEGETARIAN.
     
  • Perhaps the reason why vegans don't see that is because they have been hit hard with cognitive impairment; which only proves all the more and conclusively that one needs the proper vitamins from natural sources and not from popping pills.


///


I would refer you to https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-vegetarian-html/
Posted By: James Peterson

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/29/19 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Rick H

I would refer you to the following quotes by dedication just above you which are more succinct, true and definitely biblical:

Originally Posted by dedication

  • It's quite true that the Israelites ate meat, and yes, Jesus ate fish (and probably lamb, as well) He even provided fish for others to eat.
     
  • Their eating of the meat had symbolic meaning as well as providing meat for the priestly groups serving their "shift" in the temple, and who had no "heritage" of land like the rest of Israel. So yes, during their shift they would eat meat every day
     
  • The second set of verses refer to the people, who were told they could not eat certain animals -- like the first born of their flocks because they were the Lords, and certain things were to be eaten ONLY in desecrated places and shared with the Levites, again because they had no land inheritance., . But the people were free to eat any of the rest of their animals of their flock, or deer meat, etc.,


See how lovely, well, beautifully, adeptly and with so few words, dedication expressed himself with Bible-based thoughts ALONE? Why not follow his commendable example of sola scriptura?

///
Posted By: James Peterson

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/29/19 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by dedication
WHY I DO NOT EAT MEAT

1. The quality of meat (especially meat from the market) is questionable. It tends to be filled with hormones, antibiotics, and other chemicals as well as with disease.
2. The production of the meat found in the market, in majority of situations, is horrendously cruel to the animals.
3. The above is true for the production of eggs as well. Unless you have some chickens in your back yard, or your neighbor has some chickens and is willing to share the eggs, , most eggs you buy from the market come from chickens who never see the light of day but are crowded into tiny pens, often stacked three high, where they can't even stretch their wings, Their whole lives is one of torturous existence.
4. While fish have high levels of Omega 3, thus for some people low in that nutrient, they can be quite beneficial, BUT, fish are known to have high concentrations of mercury and other pollutants that can have very detrimental effects.
5. Meat was not part of the original diet -- eating meat requires DEATH and slaughter, and eating dead animals just does NOT appeal to me.

S0 -- what may have been OK for the Israelites is not so OK any more.

Also -- if Green had a medical condition that nutrients in eggs fixed -- that's fine, I have no problem with that.
Healthy eating is about doing what works best for our individual bodies --


But this issue that assigns "cognitive impairment" to vegetarians is a very judgmental and not based on the full facts . I know 90 year olds, who have been strict vegans (no meat, eggs or milk) for over 30 years, who live on garden grown fruit and vegetables, and some nuts and beans, who are bright and sharp as people half their age. While many others of that age and even much younger, who ate lots of eggs and meat are in old folks homes suffering from dementia and can't even recognize their own family members..
Personally, I believe the odds for living a long and productive life are greater for the vegetarians, than for heavy meat, eggs, milk consumers. And it seems studies have shown this to be true.



  • IF that is your choice to NOT eat what God has provided (See 1 Timothy 4:1-5), well then, that is your choice. Jesus said, "Are you also still without understanding? Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man." Mat. 15:16-18 Much later, Paul would refer to this saying, "I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Rom. 14:14
     
  • Some people can eat sweet, others can't because of some health condition. Some can eat salt, others can't. The Hebrews ate sheep, the Egyptians considered it an abomination. The Gentiles in the days of Moses ate strangled meat which God said should be given to them to eat; but the Hebrews considered it abominable. In short, "the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Rom. 14:17
     
  • Furthermore, to say that one does not eat meat because of contamination and what-not in the "manufacturing process" is sheer hypocrisy given that vegetables are stuffed with fertilizers and chemical sprays and genetically modified strands for longer and longer shelf-lives. So all the self-righteous protestations only sound Pharisaical: straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.
     
  • By the way, "... these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." Jesus Christ, Mark 16:17-18


///
Posted By: Rick H

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/29/19 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by James Peterson
Originally Posted by Rick H

I would refer you to the following quotes by dedication just above you which are more succinct, true and definitely biblical:

Originally Posted by dedication

  • It's quite true that the Israelites ate meat, and yes, Jesus ate fish (and probably lamb, as well) He even provided fish for others to eat.
     
  • Their eating of the meat had symbolic meaning as well as providing meat for the priestly groups serving their "shift" in the temple, and who had no "heritage" of land like the rest of Israel. So yes, during their shift they would eat meat every day
     
  • The second set of verses refer to the people, who were told they could not eat certain animals -- like the first born of their flocks because they were the Lords, and certain things were to be eaten ONLY in desecrated places and shared with the Levites, again because they had no land inheritance., . But the people were free to eat any of the rest of their animals of their flock, or deer meat, etc.,


See how lovely, well, beautifully, adeptly and with so few words, dedication expressed himself with Bible-based thoughts ALONE? Why not follow his commendable example of sola scriptura?

///
Because we know that todays meats and fish have been contaminated in many ways, so need to understand what we have today is not what was then.
Posted By: James Peterson

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 06/29/19 08:25 PM


So are your vegetables and grains. You must NOT be eating anything at all. And how about stuff in the water? You must NOT be drinking too.

There was once a man who mashed an ant and cried very loudly. When they asked him why, he looked very solemn and said, "I felt guilty! I can't help it. I just feel ...... so guilty!"

///
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 07/01/19 07:15 PM

James, do you think we should eat the best available?
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 07/01/19 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
Just today at church, unexpectedly, I encountered two people with likely B12 deficiency.
I'm glad you are able to properly diagnose people in person.
Whereas here, you seem to claim anyone has a B12 deficiency who disagrees with you....
Posted By: James Peterson

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 07/01/19 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by kland
James, do you think we should eat the best available?

That's not what Paul said. Here's what he said, "the kingdom of God is NOT eating and drinking, BUT righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things (righteousness and peace and joy) is acceptable to God and approved by men." Rom. 14:17-18

///
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 07/01/19 08:20 PM

Was Paul addressing health in that verse?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 07/02/19 03:37 AM

Originally Posted by James Peterson
Originally Posted by Rick
Because we know that todays meats and fish have been contaminated in many ways, so need to understand what we have today is not what was then.

So are your vegetables and grains. You must NOT be eating anything at all. And how about stuff in the water? You must NOT be drinking too.
///


It's true we can't escape all the pollutants in the food and water in today's world, but we can seek to limit the concentration of pollutants we intake..

Yes, plants are also contaminated. Home grown vegetables are a real blessing, store bought ones can contain quite a bit of pollutants.
But think of it this way.
Plants are on the low end of the food chain -- their accumulation and concentration of pollutants isn't as high as it is in higher levels of the food chain..

The person (or animal) that eats the plant -- ingests the contamination contained in the plant.
And yes, it is a problem -- not only to humans but also to birds, fish and animals.

But now consider that meat is on a much higher level on the food chain than those plants --
The cow eats plants -- lots of plants.
Every day the cow ingests the contamination contained in those plants
That cow eats A LOT of plants and grains (as well as being given hormones and other chemical things to help it grow fast)
A lot of the cows are fed "commercial feed" which contains "rendered meat" pushing it even higher in the food chain..
The cow has accumulated all these pollutants from many pounds of plants and "medications" and whatever pollutants were in the commercial feed, into its flesh.

Now a person eats the meat from that cow --
A plateful of its flesh has accumulated pollutants of ALL those plants, grains, and chemicals stored in its flesh -- the concentration is much, much greater.
You would have to eat at lot of meals of pure plant food, to receive the same concentration of pollutants as one meal of flesh.

Actually -- the whole pollution issue is a serious issue for humans and animals and life in general.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 07/02/19 05:56 AM

As to Romans 14 ....

THE CONTROVERSY over meat in Paul's day -- what was it about?

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.
8:7 However there is not in every man that knowledge: for some are very conscience of the idol unto this hour eat the meat as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8:8 But meat commends us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours you become a stumbling block to them that are weak.
8:10 For if any man sees you have this knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols?

So Paul addresses this problem again in Romans. It isn't about Paul saying all meat is great to eat, rather
Some converts felt eating food bought in the market that was probably offered to an idol, was equivalent to worshiping the idol if they ate it.
Others, felt no affiliation with the idol, and ate their food with thanksgiving.
Paul is saying -- IF it makes one to feel like they are worshiping the idol, they should not eat the food, but if they know the idol is nothing, and are worshiping the true God, it's no problem.

Paul is dealing with a problem many people at that time were concerned about.


Paul does not give license to abusing the body --

1 Cor. 6:13 "Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body"
So those who say "meat for the belly and the belly for meat: -- both they and their belly will be destroyed..
This is then linked to fornication which is called "a sin against the body"
Philippians 3:19 "Whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."
Thus -- we are not to sin against our body, either by making the belly our god, or with fornication, for the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

So yes, , "the kingdom of God is NOT eating and drinking, BUT righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"
What is righteousness? Seems Paul makes it clear that it is making the things of God first, not our belly and lusts and earthly desires.
Romans 8, Paul tells us its by the Holy Spirit the clamors of the flesh are subdued.

It's also a scientific fact and natural law, that food plays a BIG role in who and what we are, including our emotions of joy and peace -- to deny that is to deny a lot of science that confirms it to be true.


But now i need to get some sleep -- sleep deprivation is another "abuse to the body". And no, I don't need a text to know that to be true. It is part of natural law.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/02/20 07:53 PM

Research continues to prove the same thing: Veganism is damaging to the intellect. Consider this news:

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet-could-affect-your-intelligence

(Article pasted below)

----------------------------------------------------------

The vegan diet is low in -- or, in some cases, entirely devoid of -- several important brain nutrients. Could these shortcomings be affecting vegans' abilities to think?

By Zaria Gorvett


28th January 2020


It was the late 1880s in the city of Rajkot, India. The meeting was to take place on the banks of the local river – and discretion was essential. Mahatma Gandhi, who was just a teenager at the time, hadn’t told his parents where he was going; if they had found out, they would have been shocked to death.


As it happens, Gandhi was having a picnic. And on this occasion, India’s future national hero – and one of the most famous vegetarians in history – wasn’t planning to dine on cucumber sandwiches. No, for the first time in his life, he was going to eat meat.


As he later wrote in his biography, Gandhi was raised as a strict Vaishnava Hindu, so he had never even seen meat before this fateful day. But his picnic companion was a shady character with an unusual obsession – the idea that meat held the key to being physically and mentally strong.


In the end, Gandhi braved the meat. It was as tough as leather.   


More stories on The Vegan Factor from BBC Good Food


The idea that avoiding meat is bad for our brains makes some intuitive sense; anthropologists have been arguing about what our ancestors ate for decades, but many scientists think that there was a lot of bone-crunching and brain-slurping on the road to evolving these remarkable 1.4kg (3lb) organs. Some have even gone so far as to say that meat made us human.


One reason is that intelligence is expensive – the brain devours about 20% of our daily calories, though it accounts for just 2% of our body weight – and what better way to find the enormous array of fats, amino acids, vitamins and minerals these fastidious organs require, than by feasting on animals which have already painstakingly collected or made them.



[Image of Ghandi]

But though it’s hard to imagine our ancestors choosing turnips over tuna, today it’s a different story. According to the latest statistics, there are around 375 million vegetarians on the planet. In the West, veganism has ditched the hippie stigma to become one of the fastest-growing millennial trends; in the United States, it grew by 600% between 2014 and 2017. Meanwhile in India, meat-free diets have been mainstream since the 6th Century BCE


On the one hand, recent concern about the nutritional gaps in plant-based diets has led to a number of alarming headlines, including a warning that they can stunt brain development and cause irreversible damage to a person’s nervous system. Back in 2016, the German Society for Nutrition went so far as to categorically state that – for children, pregnant or nursing women, and adolescents – vegan diets are not recommended, which has been backed up by a 2018 review of the research. In Belgium, forcing a vegan diet on your offspring could land you a spell in prison.


But on the other, if abstaining from meat had any real impact on our brains, you would think that we would already have noticed. So is it really damaging our intellects, or is this all just fear of the unknown?


Ideally, to test the impact of the vegan diet on the brain, you would take a randomly selected group of people, ask half to stop eating animal products – then see what happens. But there isn’t a single study like this.



There are several important brain nutrients that simply do not exist in plants or fungi

Instead, the only research that comes close involved the reverse. It was conducted on 555 Kenyan schoolchildren, who were fed one of three different types of soup – one with meat, one with milk, and one with oil – or no soup at all, as a snack over seven school terms. They were tested before and after, to see how their intelligence compared. Because of their economic circumstances, the majority of the children were de facto vegetarians at the start of the study.


Surprisingly, the children who were given the soup containing meat each day seemed to have a significant edge. By the end of the study, they outperformed all the other children on a test for non-verbal reasoning. Along with the children who received soup with added oil, they also did the best on a test of arithmetic ability. Of course, more research is needed to verify if this effect is real, and if it would also apply to adults in developed countries, too. But it does raise intriguing questions about whether veganism could be holding some people back.


In fact, there are several important brain nutrients that simply do not exist in plants or fungi. Creatine, carnosine, taurine, EPA and DHA omega-3 (the third kind can be found in plants), haem iron and vitamins B12 and D3 generally only occur naturally in foods derived from animal products, though they can be synthesised in the lab or extracted from non-animal sources such as algae, bacteria or lichen, and added to supplements.


Others are found in vegan foods, but only in meagre amounts; to get the minimum amount of vitamin B6 required each day (1.3 mg) from one of the richest plant sources, potatoes, you’d have to eat about five cups’ worth (equivalent to roughly 750g or 1.6lb). Delicious, but not particularly practical.



[Image of potatoes]

And though the body can make some of these vital brain compounds from other ingredients in our diets, this ability isn’t usually enough to make up for these dietary cracks. For all of the nutrients listed above, vegetarians and vegans have been shown to have lower quantities in their bodies. In some cases, deficiency isn’t the exception – it’s completely normal.


For now, the impact these shortcomings are having on the lives of vegans is largely a mystery. But a trickle of recent studies have provided some clues – and they make for unsettling reading.


“I think there are some real repercussions to the fact that plant-based diets are taking off,” says Taylor Wallace, a food scientist and CEO of the nutrition consulting firm Think Healthy Group. “It’s not that plant-based is inherently bad, but I don't think we're educating people enough on, you know, the nutrients that are mostly derived from animal products.”


One of the most well-known challenges for vegans is getting enough vitamin B12, which is only found in animal products like eggs and meat. Other species acquire it from bacteria which live in their digestive tracts or faeces; they either absorb it directly or ingest it by snacking on their own poo, but unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) humans can’t do either.

Later in life, the amount of B12 in a person?s blood has been directly correlated with their IQ

“There are some tragic cases of children whose brains failed to develop because of their parents being ill-informed vegans,” says David Benton, who studies the link between our diets and brain chemistry at Swansea University. In one example, the child was unable to sit or smile. In another, they slipped into a coma.


Later in life, the amount of B12 in a person’s blood has been directly correlated with their IQ. In the elderly, one study found that the brains of those with lower B12 were six times more likely to be shrinking.


Even so, low B12 is widespread in vegans. One British study found that half of the vegans in their sample were deficient. In some parts of India, the problem is endemic – possibly as a consequence of the popularity of meat-free diets. 


Another nutrient that’s scarce in the typical vegan diet is iron. Though we often associate it with blood, iron also plays prominent role in brain development, and is essential for keeping the organ healthy throughout our lives. For example, one 2007 study found that giving young women iron supplements led to significant intellectual gains. In those whose blood iron levels increased over the course of the study, their performance on a cognitive test improved between five- and seven-fold, while participants whose haemoglobin levels went up experienced gains in their processing speed.



[Image of supplements]

It’s surprisingly easy to slip into iron deficiency, even though it makes up 80% of the inner mass of the planet we live on. Up to two billion people are thought to have a shortage of the element worldwide, making it the most common nutritional inadequacy. Vegans are particularly prone, because the form that’s most readily absorbed by the body is “haem iron”, which is only found in animal proteins. One German study found that 40% of the vegans they looked at were consuming less than the recommended daily amount.


Other common deficiencies among vegans include D3, omega-3, selenium, folate and iodine. Though the body can make D3 when the skin is exposed to sunshine, this doesn’t make up for the extra that vegans are missing from their diets. In the winter months, when the sun is weaker, omnivores living in the UK have nearly 40% more vitamin D3 in their blood than vegans.  


Of course, some of these things can easily be acquired from supplements. But others are so obscure, vegans are unlikely to have even heard of them – let alone realise they could be missing out.

The holes in our current understanding of what the brain needs to be healthy could potentially be a major problem for vegans

One example is taurine. This enigmatic amino acid is one of the most plentiful in the human brain, where it’s thought to underpin several important processes, such as regulating the number of neurons. It’s often added to caffeinated energy drinks, because of the (possibly mistaken) belief that it can provide an immediate cognitive boost.


Though there are small amounts of taurine in some dairy products, the main dietary sources are meat and seafood. “Some species have the ability to make all the taurine they need,” says Jang-Yen Wu, a biomedical scientist at Florida Atlantic University. “But humans have a very limited capacity to do this.”


For this reason, vegans tend to have less taurine in their bodies. No one has looked into how this might be affecting their cognitive abilities yet, but based on what we know about its role in the brain, Wu says vegans should be taking taurine tablets. “People can become deficient when they restrict their diets, because vegetables have no taurine content,” he says.


In fact, the holes in our current understanding of what the brain needs to be healthy could potentially be a major problem for vegans, since it’s hard to artificially add a nutrient to your diet, if scientists haven’t discovered its worth yet.



[Image of nuts]

“There are so many unknowns,” says Nathan Cofnas, a biologist from Oxford University. “And when you deviate from the typical diet for your species, to one which has not been tested and properly established to be healthy or good for the brain, you are conducting an experiment and you are taking a risk.”


Take choline: in the brain, it’s used to make acetylcholine, which is involved in a number of tasks, including relaying messages between nerve cells. It’s fundamental to our ability to think – even insects have it in their tiny brains – and the body can’t produce enough of it on its own. 


And yet: “It’s a very understudied nutrient,” says Wallace. “I believe we've only considered it essential [something you have to get from your diet] since the late 1990s.”

Recently creatine has started to attract a fanbase as a smart drug

There are small amounts of choline in lots of vegan staples, but among the richest sources are eggs, beef and seafood. In fact, even with a normal diet, 90% of Americans don’t consume enough. According to unpublished research by Wallace, vegetarians have the lowest intakes of any demographic. “They have extremely low levels of choline, to the point where it might be concerning,” he says. 


For vegans, the picture is likely to be bleaker still, since people who eat eggs tend to have almost double the choline levels of those who don’t. And though the US authorities have set suggested intakes, they might be way off.  


Wallace points to a 2018 study, which found that the babies of women who consumed twice the amount considered “adequate” – around 930mg each day – in the last third of pregnancy enjoyed a lasting cognitive edge. For comparison, the average vegetarian gets roughly a fifth of that amount.  



[Image of soybeans and soymilk]

In other cases, our understanding is even murkier.


The latest nutrient in question is creatine – a white, powdery substance often found in fitness shakes. Its natural function in the body is to supply our cells with energy, so it’s revered by gym obsessives as a way to improve their endurance.


But it’s also important to the brain – and studies have shown that increasing your intake can provide a range of benefits, such as a better recognition memory and reduced mental fatigue. Recently it’s started to gain traction as a smart drug.


It’s well-established that vegans and vegetarians have significantly lower levels in their bodies, because plants and fungi don’t contain any.


This has led scientists to wonder whether a creatine deficit could be holding some people back. For one study, researchers tested how the intelligence of vegetarians and omnivores changed after five days on supplements. “We found that the vegetarians seemed to benefit particularly,” says David Benton from Swansea University, who led the research. 


In contrast, the omnivores were relatively unaffected. This hints that, unlike the vegetarians, they already had the appropriate amount of creatine in their brains.

It can make quite a substantial difference in your life, whether your intelligence is one standard deviation above the mean or two ? Nathan Cofnas

However, Caroline Rae, who led another study, says there isn’t enough evidence to back taking creatine yet. It may come with unintended consequences, such as reducing the brain’s ability to make its own – leading to “creatine withdrawal”. “I’ve always hypothesised that it could be useful if you wanted to cram for an exam, but it would be interesting to see if people then got slower after they stopped.” 


Finally, the brain largely makes its own supply, so it’s not clear if vegans actually need any extra. Instead of being a major source, the creatine in our diets might only be used by the brain in “extreme” conditions, like when we’re stressed. 


[Image of a meaty sandwich]

Nevertheless, Cofnas finds the potential creatine deficits in vegans disturbing. “It can make quite a substantial difference in your life, whether your intelligence is one standard deviation above the mean or two,” he says, referring to the small-yet-significant intellectual gains made by vegetarians on creatine supplements.


So what’s the verdict?


“I think we need a lot more research into vegan nutrition and health,” says Heather Russell, a dietitian from The Vegan Society. “As far as we can tell, it’s possible to lead a healthy life as a vegan – certainly there are people who thrive on a vegan diet.” Though it’s important to take supplements, she explains that a person’s cardiovascular and brain health are inextricably linked, and vegans tend to have healthier hearts.


“I tell people all the time, if you're going to be a vegan or vegetarian, that's fine,” says Wallace. “I’m certainly not advocating against it. But there are 40 or something essential nutrients. So, I mean, it really would take a lot of research for vegans to get everything the brain needs,” he says. Some nutrients that a typical vegan diet is low or lacking in, like choline, creatine, carnosine and taurine, are extremely bulky, so just taking a standard vitamin tablet won’t be enough. Instead, they need to be taken individually. 

Without question, veganism can cause B12 and iron deficiencies, and without question they affect your intelligence ? Nathan Cofnas

Benton agrees. “I’m sure that if you are knowledgeable, careful, and obsessive about it – and you have all the right personality characteristics to be this way – then it is possible to have a healthy diet as a vegan,” he says. “But it is distinctly possible that you could have deficiencies.”


Cofnas takes a harsher view. Though vegans can take supplements, he thinks it’s unrealistic to expect that they all will. Consequently, he finds the recent shift towards plant-based diets troubling, though he’s sympathetic to the arguments for doing so. “Without question, veganism can cause B12 and iron deficiencies, and without question they affect your intelligence,” he says.


As for Gandhi, he eventually abandoned his illicit relationship with meat, and went back to vegetarianism. But his experiments with nutrition didn’t end there. He also ditched salt, then went back to it, and attempted veganism – though after a bout of dysentery practically reduced him to a living skeleton, he decided that milk products were necessary, in order for a person to be healthy.


Whatever the truth is, isn’t it about time we found out?


An earlier version of this article stated omega-3 generally only occurs in animal products. The article has been corrected to make clear there are three types of omega-3 fatty acids and that one of these, ALA, can be found in plants.


--


Posted By: jackson

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/03/20 06:47 AM

A whole plant based diet is deficient in only one ingredient - vitamin B-12.

Vegans can get vitamin B-12 either as a supplement in pill form, by eating B-12 enriched foods, or by not washing your garden produce. Of course, B-12 supplementation is by far the simplest route In extreme cases of neglect, a B-12 injection may be called for

Here is a short video on why many vegetarians get cognitive imparment and why a vegetarian who supplements with B-12 is healthier and wiser than a meat eater.

l https://nutritionfacts.org/video/flashback-friday-preventing-brain-loss-with-b-vitamins/

It has been clearly presented to me that God's people are to take a firm stand against meat eating. By the use of flesh meats the animal nature is strengthened and the spiritual nature weakened. {CD 383.1}

Note of caution:
The question whether we shall eat butter, meat, or cheese, is not to be presented to anyone as a test, but we are to educate and to show the evils of the things that are objectionable. Those who gather up these things and drive them upon others do not know what work they are doing. .... { 3Selected Messages p 287.1}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/03/20 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by jackson
A whole plant based diet is deficient in only one ingredient - vitamin B-12.


We cannot make any statement like this with certainty. It is not possible to prove. We simply do not know everything regarding the body's requirements, and we are still learning. There are many things present in animal products that are not present in a vegan diet. The article brought out several of them. Even the Bible directs us to eat a little honey (an animal product), and many use it as a natural remedy--but a pure vegan would eschew it. Canaan was "a land flowing with milk and honey," according to the Bible--BOTH animal products. Mrs. White has told us plainly that milk or cream, added to fruits, grains, and nuts, is part of "the most healthful diet."

Originally Posted by Ellen White
God has furnished man with abundant means for the gratification of an unperverted appetite. He has spread before him the products of the earth, ? a bountiful variety of food that is palatable to the taste and nutritious to the system. Of these our benevolent heavenly Father says we may freely eat. Fruits, grains, and vegetables, prepared in a simple way, free from spice and grease of all kinds, make, with milk or cream, the most healthful diet. They impart nourishment to the body, and give a power of endurance and a vigor of intellect that are not produced by a stimulating diet. {CTBH 47.1}


I would suggest that the article I posted above has some good points to offer. It is also incomplete, and does not draw a clear line between flesh foods and things like milk and eggs which Mrs. White tells us should not be classed with flesh foods. Mrs. White recommended eggs as a natural remedy for many ailments, and told us that it has properties to counteract certain poisons.

One thing eggs have, that is deficient in a vegan diet, is sulfur. Sulfur counteracts elemental poisons like arsenic, etc. To get the same amount of sulfur as one would find in an ounce of egg would mean consuming eight ounces of garlic--and I don't know many people who eat mashed garlic as their main dish. Garlic is the vegan food richest in sulfur.

James tells us that every good gift and every perfect gift is from above. God gives perfect gifts. And God has promised to give us honey.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
If they would keep His commandments, God promised to give them the finest of the wheat, and bring them honey out of the rock. With long life would He satisfy them, and show them His salvation. {COL 289.1}


Mrs. White was balanced. She did not promote meat-eating; but she did not promote veganism either. Both of these, according to her, would result in death.

Originally Posted by jackson
Vegans can get vitamin B-12 either as a supplement in pill form, by eating B-12 enriched foods, or by not washing your garden produce. Of course, B-12 supplementation is by far the simplest route In extreme cases of neglect, a B-12 injection may be called for


Most vegans are sufficiently unaware of the facts about vitamin B-12 as to know only enough to harm themselves. The truth is, the so-called "fortified" foods that contain B-12 are not helping them. The more they trust such to supply the lack in their own impoverished diet, the more likely they will come to harm as the B-12 is entirely inadequate to their needs. Fortified foods contain cyanocobalamin, which is almost entirely ineffective. To obtain a useful form of the vitamin, one should look for methylcobalamin, or adenosylcobalamin, both much more expensive supplemental forms. And, to negate the need of intrinsic factor, the injected form is far more effective. The GI tract vastly limits the amount of vitamin B-12 that can be absorbed in a single day, and this is limited further when stomach acid and/or intrinsic factor is in short supply.

Originally Posted by jackson
Here is a short video on why many vegetarians get cognitive imparment and why a vegetarian who supplements with B-12 is healthier and wiser than a meat eater.

l https://nutritionfacts.org/video/flashback-friday-preventing-brain-loss-with-b-vitamins/

It has been clearly presented to me that God's people are to take a firm stand against meat eating. By the use of flesh meats the animal nature is strengthened and the spiritual nature weakened. {CD 383.1}

Note of caution:
The question whether we shall eat butter, meat, or cheese, is not to be presented to anyone as a test, but we are to educate and to show the evils of the things that are objectionable. Those who gather up these things and drive them upon others do not know what work they are doing. .... { 3Selected Messages p 287.1}


That's a good video. And thank you for those great quotes, as well.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/03/20 05:30 PM

You can get all the fiber you need by eating one egg a day.
Posted By: jackson

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/03/20 07:30 PM

Kland, perhaps you were joking, but there is no fiber in eggs. There is no fiber in any animal food.
Posted By: jackson

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/03/20 08:21 PM


Green Cochoa said:
Quote
We cannot make any statement like this with certainty. It is not possible to prove. We simply do not know everything regarding the body's requirements, and we are still learning. There are many things present in animal products that are not present in a vegan diet
.

I think milk and eggs as remedial agents are fine, but should not be part of a steady diet.

The Lord intends to bring His people back to live upon simple fruits, vegetables, and grains. {CDF 322.5}

In choosing man's food in Eden, the Lord showed what was the best diet; CDF 374



Green Cochoa said:
Quote
Mrs. White recommended eggs as a natural remedy for many ailments, and told us that it has properties to counteract certain poisons.



I agree, but, again, I think eggs should be used for remedial purposes only. There are too many negative health aspects to eggs for them to be consumed on a regular basis.

This short video describes one of the dangers of regular egg consumption.

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/eggs-choline-and-cancer/


Green Cochoa said:
Quote
One thing eggs have, that is deficient in a vegan diet, is sulfur. Sulfur counteracts elemental poisons like arsenic, etc. To get the same amount of sulfur as one would find in an ounce of egg would mean consuming eight ounces of garlic
-


Cauliflower, onions, garlic, shallots, and cruciferous vegetables like Brussels sprouts, kale, mustard greens, and cabbage are also good sources of sulfur.

These vegetables also have the many phytonutrients and fiber that are lacking in eggs

Green Cochoa said:
Quote
Mrs. White was balanced. She did not promote meat-eating; but she did not promote veganism either. Both of these, according to her, would result in death.


Not only did she not promote meat eating, but flesh foods were to be discarded.
The original diet as stated in Gen 1:29 was to be our diet in these end times..

In choosing man's food in Eden, the Lord showed what was the best diet; CDF 374

?The light that God has given and will continue to give on the food question is to be to His people today what the manna was to the children of Israel.? CDF p269.1
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/03/20 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by jackson

Green Cochoa said:
Quote
We cannot make any statement like this with certainty. It is not possible to prove. We simply do not know everything regarding the body's requirements, and we are still learning. There are many things present in animal products that are not present in a vegan diet
.

I think milk and eggs as remedial agents are fine, but should not be part of a steady diet.

The Lord intends to bring His people back to live upon simple fruits, vegetables, and grains. {CDF 322.5}

In choosing man's food in Eden, the Lord showed what was the best diet; CDF 374



Green Cochoa said:
Quote
Mrs. White recommended eggs as a natural remedy for many ailments, and told us that it has properties to counteract certain poisons.



I agree, but, again, I think eggs should be used for remedial purposes only. There are too many negative health aspects to eggs for them to be consumed on a regular basis.

This short video describes one of the dangers of regular egg consumption.

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/eggs-choline-and-cancer/


Green Cochoa said:
Quote
One thing eggs have, that is deficient in a vegan diet, is sulfur. Sulfur counteracts elemental poisons like arsenic, etc. To get the same amount of sulfur as one would find in an ounce of egg would mean consuming eight ounces of garlic
-


Cauliflower, onions, garlic, shallots, and cruciferous vegetables like Brussels sprouts, kale, mustard greens, and cabbage are also good sources of sulfur.

These vegetables also have the many phytonutrients and fiber that are lacking in eggs

Green Cochoa said:
Quote
Mrs. White was balanced. She did not promote meat-eating; but she did not promote veganism either. Both of these, according to her, would result in death.


Not only did she not promote meat eating, but flesh foods were to be discarded.
The original diet as stated in Gen 1:29 was to be our diet in these end times..

In choosing man's food in Eden, the Lord showed what was the best diet; CDF 374

?The light that God has given and will continue to give on the food question is to be to His people today what the manna was to the children of Israel.? CDF p269.1


Jackson,

Have you discarded the objectionable nuts and vegetables yet, or are you still eating potatoes?

Originally Posted by Ellen White
347. Grains and fruits prepared free from grease, and in as natural a condition as possible, should be the food for the tables of all who claim to be preparing for translation to heaven.--T., V. II, p. 352. {HL 78.5}


Perhaps your world is an ideal and perfect one. I live in a rather different environment. Over here, the fruits and vegetables I buy at the market may have been sprayed for cockroaches during the night. Even the tofu on sale at the market was made by some chemical process that used things of which the FDA would never approve--I know one individual who gets very sick every time he eats any of it. There is next to no regulation of chemicals where I live, and the exposure to toxins is constant. When I try to reduce my consumption of eggs, I start having health problems like headaches, weakening of the stomach, fatigue, etc. -- all from the buildup of toxins that the eggs are not helping to remove. The exposure to environmental toxins here is chronic--we are constantly bombarded by them. Lately, smog has been a big problem here. There have been times when my location was considered by the online statistics to be that with the lowest air quality in the world at that moment (it changes and is updated constantly).

Mrs. White ate eggs to her dying day. In her last months of life, it's nearly all she ate. Dr. Kress was instructed by her to eat eggs for health--he followed her advice and ate eggs every day the rest of his life, living well into his eighties on account of it, a story which was recorded for posterity.

But thinking that you need only to eat an egg once in awhile, as a remedy when sick, shows lack of knowledge about the key nutrient which you acknowledged must come from an animal source: vitamin B-12. In order to absorb B-12 in the intestines, it must be joined to intrinsic factor in the stomach. Intrinsic factor is limited. If you take 500 mcg of vitamin B-12 as a supplement, you might get, say, 10 mcg of absorption into the body from it--if everything is working very well. If you take 2,400 mcg of B-12, your absorption might go up to 14 mcg. (The actual amount would vary from person to person and is dependent on levels of intrinsic factor.) The reason dosages are usually at that higher end in supplements is to try to maximize how much a person actually will get from it. If you went up to 5,000 mcg, you might still get very little more than 15 mcg absorption. Basically, you would be maxed out at that point, on account of the daily limit for intrinsic factor. We can bypass the need of intrinsic factor by injecting the vitamin directly into the body. If we inject 1,000 mcg into the body, absorption / retention of the B-12 can go up to about 150 mcg, which is more than ten times the amount absorbable through the stomach.

If you would like to see some researched scientific evidence to back up my statements here, take a look at the following article:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2532799/

Ellen White's writings are just as true today as they always were. She said:

Originally Posted by Ellen White
The time will come when we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs; but my message is that you must not bring yourself to a time of trouble beforehand, and thus afflict yourself with death. Wait till the Lord prepares the way before you. {TSDF 120.10}

I assure you that your ideas in regard to diet for the sick are not advisable. The change is too great. While I would discard flesh-meat as injurious, something less objectionable may be used, and this is found in eggs. Do not remove milk from the table or forbid it being used in the cooking of food. The milk used should be procured from healthy cows, and should be sterilized. {TSDF 120.11}

The time will come when milk can not be used as freely as it is now used; but the present is not the time to discard it.... {TSDF 120.12}

But I wish to say that when the time comes that it is no longer safe to use milk, cream, butter, and eggs, God will reveal this. No extremes in health reform are to be advocated. The question of using milk and butter and eggs will work out its own problem. At present we have no burden on this line. Let your moderation be known unto all men. {TSDF 120.13}


Even in speaking of the time when it will be less safe to use milk and eggs, Mrs. White didn't advocate giving up the milk entirely; she says, instead, that it will be used less freely.

The question stands open to every Adveganist today: Has God revealed to you that it is now time to give up the use of milk and eggs?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: jackson

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/04/20 04:56 AM

Green Cochoa,
i understand that in many parts of the world it is not practical or even possible to follow the ideal diet as outlined in the inspired writings. We must do the best we can with what is available to us. However, if the ideal diet is available , then we should take full advantage of it.

I do not think it is wise to think that because milk and eggs have not been excluded from the inspired dietary counsel, that they are somehow essential to our diet.

Milk and eggs are not the healthiest choices for humans, when a variety of wholesome fruits, vegetables, grains and nuts are available.

i think the following counsel from Mrs. White explains this well.


Those who live in new countries or in poverty-stricken districts where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary. It is true that persons in full flesh and in whom the animal passions are strong need to avoid the use of stimulating foods. Especially in families of children who are given to sensual habits, eggs should not be used. But in the case of persons whose blood-making organs are feeble,?especially if other foods to supply the needed elements cannot be obtained,?milk and eggs should not be wholly discarded. Great care should be taken, however, to obtain milk from healthy cows and eggs from healthy fowls, that are well fed and well cared for; and the eggs should be so cooked as to be most easily digested.
The diet reform should be progressive. As disease in animals increases, the use of milk and eggs will become more and more unsafe. An effort should be made to supply their place with other things that are healthful and inexpensive. The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable.?The Ministry of Healing, 320, 321, 1905 { CD 365.1-2}

Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/04/20 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by jackson
Milk and eggs are not the healthiest choices for humans, when a variety of wholesome fruits, vegetables, grains and nuts are available.

They're not? Why, then, did Mrs. White say they were part of the most healthful diet?

Mrs. White's writings indicate that she, living in California, had an abundance of fruits and vegetables at her table. Why, then, did she still use milk and eggs if they were not "somehow essential to our diet"?

Her last days were spent with raw egg as her staple food.

Originally Posted by W. C. WHITE, Pacific Union Recorder
THURSDAY, JUNE 3, SHE COULD NOT EAT; AND SINCE THEN SHE HAS BEEN ABLE TO EAT, EACH DAY, ONLY THREE RAW EGGS AND FOUR OR FIVE TEASPOONFULS OF OTHER FOOD. {PUR, June 24, 1915 par. 2}


And she both owned her own milk cows, and recommended them to others.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
When we go to America, I want to have Sister Ings in my family, and I shall locate myself somewhere or in some place where there is land to pasture a cow without so much trouble. {21MR 312.6}

I immediately set to work on my garden men who were in need, some of these destitute of daily food. One man with a family of four children came to me and said that they had had nothing but squash to eat for a week. I gave them a cow, for they must have something for their children. We also plowed their land for them, my hired man doing the work. To another family I loaned a cow, that they might have milk for their children. I cannot see such poverty as this without great pain of heart, for I know that there is enough in the world to sustain all if economy were practiced by those who have the means.--Ms 55, 1896, pp. 1, 2. (Diary, Oct. 1, 1896.)

White Estate Washington, D. C. July 15, 1982 {12MR 95.2}


If she had the luxury of good space for a garden, and hired men to cultivate it for her, she had plenty of fruits and vegetables at her table, why the need of the cow?

You see, she lived the message she preached, and she preached that milk and cream were part of "the most healthful diet."

Dairy products are not the enemy. The enemy is the contamination of them. Fruits and vegetables these days have the same enemy. Monsanto / Bayer is destroying even their DNA by making genetically modified strains that are resistant to their Roundup (glyphosate). And many outbreaks of salmonella, E coli., etc. have come out lately among vegetables: tomatoes, salad greens, cabbages, etc. Hygiene is important. Mrs. White speaks of using proper sanitation methods for dairy products. She didn't say to give them up, but told us how to use them properly.

When it is time to give them up, she said, God will reveal it.

So I ask again, has God revealed it to you? This is the question every vegan should be answering before adopting the vegan dietary.

In Heaven, we will not eat milk and eggs. We will no longer need them. In Heaven, we will have the fruit of the Tree of Life. That fruit is essential to our health and diet--but we cannot partake of it here.

This world does not presently allow us to follow our ideal diet. We are on "Plan B" instead of "Plan A."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: jackson

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/04/20 08:13 PM

Green Cocha,
You did not include my full statement. I said," Milk and eggs are not the healthiest choices for humans, when a variety of wholesome fruits, vegetables, grains and nuts are available".

This not just my opinion. This is what Mrs. White said. Let us look again at what she said:

Quote
Those who live in new countries or in poverty-stricken districts where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary. It is true that persons in full flesh and in whom the animal passions are strong need to avoid the use of stimulating foods. Especially in families of children who are given to sensual habits, eggs should not be used


She called milk and eggs stimulating foods that should be avoided by people of full flesh. If stimulating foods should be avoided when possible, is it not logical to conclude that they are not the healthiest choices for healthy humans who have access to a variety of clean, fresh whole foods from the plant kingdom?

The fact that Mrs. White ate 3 raw eggs a day when her appetite was failing and that she had a milk cow on her property does not override her inspired counsel stated above. There may have been circumstances we are not aware of that made her make these choices. But I think it best to go by her inspired counsel rather than choices she made under circumstances that we are not privy to.

There is another statement Mrs. White made that we should not overlook:

Quote
?The light that God has given and will continue to give on the food question is to be to His people today what the manna was to the children of Israel.? CDF p269.1


I assume that after the passing of Mrs. White, God has and will continue to give more light on the food question. This new light will not contradict previous light, but will increase our knowledge as to the whys and wherefores of our health message.

There have been many new findings as to the deleterious effect of regular milk and egg consumption. These findings, rather than contradicting our health message injunctions, have bolstered them. Milk and eggs are not the healthiest choices for humans, when a variety of wholesome fruits, vegetables, grains and nuts are available.

The Eden diet before the fall (Gen 1:29) was amended by God after the fall. Our fallen natures made us now prone to unhealthy thoughts and feelings as well as unsanctified appetites The result would be ill health and disease. To help counteract that, God gave us permission to now eat the healing herbs of the field. (Gen 3:18)

Mrs. White is in accord with this when she added vegetables to the original Eden diet.

Quote
In grains, fruits, vegetables, and nuts are to be found all the food elements that we need. If we will come to the Lord in simplicity of mind, Manuscript 27, 1906 { CD 92.2}


Green Cochoa, when I said something similar to this above statement you said,> ?We cannot make any statement like this with certainty. It is not possible to prove.? That is true, but this is where faith in the inspired message is tested.

We all have to decide for ourselves as to what we do with our inspired health message. I am just telling it as I see it. If you see it differently, so be it, just as long as neither of us knowingly contradict inspiration.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/04/20 09:13 PM

...
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/04/20 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by jackson
Green Cocha,
You did not include my full statement. I said," Milk and eggs are not the healthiest choices for humans, when a variety of wholesome fruits, vegetables, grains and nuts are available".


I did indeed include your full statement. Look at my post again and you will see I quoted your entire sentence just as you quoted it again here.

Originally Posted by jackson
This not just my opinion. This is what Mrs. White said. Let us look again at what she said:

Quote
Those who live in new countries or in poverty-stricken districts where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary. It is true that persons in full flesh and in whom the animal passions are strong need to avoid the use of stimulating foods. Especially in families of children who are given to sensual habits, eggs should not be used


If you wish to chastise others for not including full statements, it's a shame to see that you do not include Mrs. White's full statement either. In fact, the part you omitted shows that she is saying the exact opposite of what you have wished to have her say by quoting just a part of it. You do know that she speaks against this sort of misrepresentation of her words, don't you? So let's look at that full paragraph:

Originally Posted by Ellen White
Those who live in new countries or in poverty-stricken districts, where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary. It is true that persons in full flesh and in whom the animal passions are strong need to avoid the use of stimulating foods. Especially in families of children who are given to sensual habits, eggs should not be used. But in the case of persons whose blood-making organs are feeble,--especially if other foods to supply the needed elements cannot be obtained,--milk and eggs should not be wholly discarded. Great care should be taken, however, to obtain milk from healthy cows, and eggs from healthy fowls, that are well fed and well cared for; and the eggs should be so cooked as to be most easily digested. {MH 320.1}


In that paragraph, she is saying that we should eat eggs, with the exception of persons who are:

1) "in full flesh"; and
2) "given to sensual habits."

Everyone else should be eating eggs. That statement says nothing about the unhealthfulness of eggs, it simply addresses the fact that they stimulate the lower appetites. We could say, perhaps, that they have a bit of an aphrodisiac effect. For many doctors and others, that means they are health-enhancing. For those, however, who have weak wills in that area, it would not be best to encourage such.


Originally Posted by jackson
She called milk and eggs stimulating foods that should be avoided by people of full flesh. If stimulating foods should be avoided when possible, is it not logical to conclude that they are not the healthiest choices for healthy humans who have access to a variety of clean, fresh whole foods from the plant kingdom?


That's a misrepresentation via a half-truth. See the other half of the truth listed in my two numbered points just above. When the truth is considered in its proper context, the conclusion you have reached is not so well supported.

Originally Posted by jackson
The fact that Mrs. White ate 3 raw eggs a day when her appetite was failing and that she had a milk cow on her property does not override her inspired counsel stated above. There may have been circumstances we are not aware of that made her make these choices. But I think it best to go by her inspired counsel rather than choices she made under circumstances that we are not privy to.


Mrs. White lived the health message that she taught, despite your allusions to the contrary.

Originally Posted by jackson
There is another statement Mrs. White made that we should not overlook:

Quote
?The light that God has given and will continue to give on the food question is to be to His people today what the manna was to the children of Israel.? CDF p269.1


I assume that after the passing of Mrs. White, God has and will continue to give more light on the food question. This new light will not contradict previous light, but will increase our knowledge as to the whys and wherefores of our health message.


I'm glad you know that the new light will not contradict the previous light. In that case, milk and eggs should not be discarded until God tells us to do so.

Originally Posted by jackson
There have been many new findings as to the deleterious effect of regular milk and egg consumption. These findings, rather than contradicting our health message injunctions, have bolstered them. Milk and eggs are not the healthiest choices for humans, when a variety of wholesome fruits, vegetables, grains and nuts are available.


Here you are simply mistaken. I have seen first hand the deleterious effect of abstaining from the use of dairy products. One vegan young lady of about 18 years of age became unable to walk. I showed her that Mrs. White described her condition, and that she prescribed the dairy products to remedy it. The young lady began to use dairy products again, and was soon able to walk. I think I once described this experience earlier on this forum, if not in this very thread. I also have first-hand knowledge of vegan parents whose children had stunted growth and development, and the mother became unable to produce milk for her infant. Does that sound "healthy"?

Originally Posted by jackson
The Eden diet before the fall (Gen 1:29) was amended by God after the fall. Our fallen natures made us now prone to unhealthy thoughts and feelings as well as unsanctified appetites The result would be ill health and disease. To help counteract that, God gave us permission to now eat the healing herbs of the field. (Gen 3:18)

Mrs. White is in accord with this when she added vegetables to the original Eden diet.

Quote
In grains, fruits, vegetables, and nuts are to be found all the food elements that we need. If we will come to the Lord in simplicity of mind, Manuscript 27, 1906 { CD 92.2}


Green Cochoa, when I said something similar to this above statement you said,> ?We cannot make any statement like this with certainty. It is not possible to prove.? That is true, but this is where faith in the inspired message is tested.

We all have to decide for ourselves as to what we do with our inspired health message. I am just telling it as I see it. If you see it differently, so be it, just as long as neither of us knowingly contradict inspiration.


You might like to see more of what Mrs. White says on the topic. Did you know that Mrs. White says only "a very small minority" of the people can do well without milk or eggs?

If you're one of those, count yourself blessed. But please feel under no burden to advocate your own diet for others. Mrs. White is clear that we should not be teaching people to dispense with milk and eggs. Not once in her writings did she indicate that either milk or eggs were unhealthful.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/04/20 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by green
In that paragraph, she is saying that we should eat eggs
Originally Posted by EGW
Those who live in new countries or in poverty-stricken districts, where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary. It is true that persons in full flesh and in whom the animal passions are strong need to avoid the use of stimulating foods. Especially in families of children who are given to sensual habits, eggs should not be used. But in the case of persons whose blood-making organs are feeble,--especially if other foods to supply the needed elements cannot be obtained,--milk and eggs should not be wholly discarded. Great care should be taken, however, to obtain milk from healthy cows, and eggs from healthy fowls, that are well fed and well cared for; and the eggs should be so cooked as to be most easily digested. {MH 320.1}
Originally Posted by green
Everyone else should be eating eggs.
that is NOT what she saud, that IS what green said!

Green LOVES eggs! Even will eat them IF the are injurious...
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/05/20 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by jackson
Kland, perhaps you were joking, but there is no fiber in eggs. There is no fiber in any animal food.

You might do a search of "eggs" on this forum and see who is promoting eggs most every chance he gets.

Also, take a look at a similar conclusion I made:
Pure water supplies B12 - ?

Green takes a statement Ellen White made to those on extreme diets, diets which leave out necessary things, and tells them to take eggs to supply what they were depriving themselves of by using an unbalanced diet. (eggs was not what was being deprived but what the eggs were supplying). He then says B12 is necessary. Therefore, since A supplies B, and B is necessary and C is necessary, then A must supply C also. It doesn't matter that Green's recommendation of 1 egg doesn't supply enough B12, since Ellen White said so, and we can forget the facts.

Using the same "creative interpretation", Since fiber is necessary, and eggs supply necessary things, therefore, eggs supply fiber.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/05/20 01:23 AM

Jackson posted a statement that offers EGW's BALANCED view on the subject.

Summary:
Eggs may be necessary when the diet is impoverished, and IF that is the case, then be sure they are obtained from healthy fowls...
BUT we are to make an effort to replace them with OTHER HEALTHFUL foods and teach people to cook WITHOUT milk and eggs, but still serving wholesome and palatable food.

Quote
Those who live in new countries or in poverty-stricken districts where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary. It is true that persons in full flesh and in whom the animal passions are strong need to avoid the use of stimulating foods. Especially in families of children who are given to sensual habits, eggs should not be used. But in the case of persons whose blood-making organs are feeble,?especially if other foods to supply the needed elements cannot be obtained,?milk and eggs should not be wholly discarded.

Great care should be taken, however, to obtain milk from healthy cows and eggs from healthy fowls, that are well fed and well cared for; and the eggs should be so cooked as to be most easily digested.
The diet reform should be progressive (In other words they should know how to replace them before they discard them) . As disease in animals increases, the use of milk and eggs will become more and more unsafe. An effort should be made to supply their place (replace eggs and milk) with other things that are healthful and inexpensive. The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable.The Ministry of Healing, 320, 321, 1905 { CD 365.1-2}

Posted By: dedication

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/05/20 02:12 AM

Green lives in the orient, as you can see in the header of his posts.
It may be very likely that "impoverished diets" is quite wide spread there, and supplying eggs may be a good thing for those people.

However, most of us live on the North American continent, where we have a huge variety of foods to choose from -- foods that are imported from all over the world. The nutritional problems here tend to be different than in the orient. Here it's more a matter of getting people to eat real food --plant based diets, and not all that refined stuff and meat and eggs and cheese.

Here cancer, diabetes, heart problems, dementia, are HUGE PROBLEMS!!!!
And it's not due to a lack of milk, eggs, meat, and animal products.

Meat, Dairy, and Egg farming have become massive production procedures, with lots of economic pressure to keep people buying and keeping the money coming in. A lot of the info put out as "scientific health" promoting milk, eggs, cheese and meat is really propaganda by the big producers.

There are a lot of other sobering studies showing the danger of these products --
It's not just Adventists realizing the need to return to real food as grown if they want to be healthy.

Why would we fight EGW's counsel to learn to cook health promoting meals WITHOUT those products.
While not condemning people who use some eggs and milk, I don't think we should be promoting the use of these items.

There is a lot of "mental impairment" "mental sluggishness,' "mental fog" "dementia" etc. in North America. It's getting to be epidemic. More and more kids seem to be put on pills of some kind or other, so they can "learn" in school. I've never seen so many kids with problems, needing medication just to operate normal as have sprung up in the last couple decades. And this is happening in a country where milk and eggs and meat are consumed in large amounts.

We've bragged about our healthy seniors and the studies that show Adventists live longer and healthier than the average American. It seems forces are working to nullify that? Maybe?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/05/20 02:46 AM

Yes, I live in the Orient, and yes, the diet here is one which requires eggs more than the American diet. (We need more sulfur on account of the prevalence of toxins here.) But all people need vitamin B12, it is an essential nutrient--meaning our bodies cannot make it--and B12 is not provided by a vegan diet.

If you do not have a source of B12, you have an impoverished diet. It's that simple. Either you supplement, get shots, or in some similar artificial manner supply your lack, or you eat the natural dairy products from healthy animals to do so.

Or you can recycle some of your stool into your food, as one researcher did with marvelous effect. (I'd rather eat an egg.)

No, I do not eat eggs because I like them too much to give them up. I often do not relish them much at all, but I try to like them because science and Ellen White agree that we gain more from foods we enjoy. I eat them for health and strength. It is what we are prescribed to do.

But I have seen cases of severe nutritional deficiency in vegans in America. They had plenty of good fruits and vegetables in their diet, being conscientious Adveganists who merely wished to eat for health. They did not have a junk-food diet. But they still came to harm. A near relative of mine was hospitalized and nearly died on account of his veganism. While in the hospital, he let go of his vegan idol, and accepted dairy products again. He lived. Virtually the same was true of Dr. Kress in Ellen White's day. She wasn't sure her letter would even reach him in time! But he followed her directions, and continued eating three eggs a day for the rest of his long life.

In that same letter in which she instructed him to eat milk and eggs, she also gave direction that veganism should not be taught.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
We appreciate your experience as a physician, and yet I say that milk and eggs should be included in your diet. These things cannot at present be dispensed with, and the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught. {CD 204.2}


So we have two separate statements from Mrs. White that some might consider to be at odds with each other:

1) The doctrine of dispensing with milk and eggs should not be taught.
2) People should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs.

While these are very near to appearing opposite in meaning, the word "how" in that second line is critical. But for that word, she would indeed have contradicted herself. Take a closer look at the actual statement:

Originally Posted by Ellen White
The diet reform should be progressive. As disease in animals increases, the use of milk and eggs will become more and more unsafe. An effort should be made to supply their place with other things that are healthful and inexpensive. The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable. {MH 320.2}


Without that word "how," she would be telling us to teach people to give up the milk and eggs. But that would then contradict her statement that we must not give them up until God tells us it is time. The message is not to come from the brethren, but from God--because she tells us not to teach this vegan doctrine.

So what are those two statements saying? They tell us that we are to prepare people for the time when the milk and eggs must be abandoned, while at the same time, we must not tell them that now is the time to do so. God is to do that, not us. It is not our own conscience that is to be made an authority for anyone else.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
Those who have but a partial understanding of the principles of reform are often the most rigid, not only in carrying out their views themselves, but in urging them on their families and their neighbors. The effect of their mistaken reforms, as seen in their own ill-health, and their efforts to force their views upon others, give many a false idea of dietetic reform, and lead them to reject it altogether. {MH 318.4}


So those who advocate giving up the milk and eggs, and urge others to do so, are in acting in contradiction to the very same pen of inspiration they suppose themselves to be following. They often see themselves in a superior light, thinking those who still eat milk and eggs are inferior to themselves. This is modern Pharisaism. But Mrs. White tells us that the results will not be what the vegans thought they would be, and that God would work to counter their influence.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
Some, in abstaining from milk, eggs, and butter, have failed to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence have become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought into disrepute. The work that we have tried to build up solidly is confused with strange things that God has not required, and the energies of the church are crippled. But God will interfere to prevent the results of these too strenuous ideas. The gospel is to harmonize the sinful race. It is to bring the rich and poor together at the feet of Jesus. {9T 162.2}


God has not required that we abstain from milk and eggs. Mrs. White clearly states this, and that God will work against the veganists' ideas. Therefore, until God does require this, and tells us so, we must not run to extremes. Many wish to run ahead of the Cloud, and not wait for God to lead them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/05/20 03:26 AM

hap. 25 - Extremes in Diet
 
Not all who profess to believe in dietetic reform are really reformers. With many persons the reform consists merely in discarding certain unwholesome foods. They do not understand clearly the principles of health, and their tables, still loaded with harmful dainties, are far from being an example of Christian temperance and moderation. {MH 318.1}
 
Another class, in their desire to set a right example, go to the opposite extreme. Some are unable to obtain the most desirable foods, and, instead of using such things as would best supply the lack, they adopt an impoverished diet. Their food does not supply the elements needed to make good blood. Their health suffers, their usefulness is impaired, and their example tells against, rather than in favor of, reform in diet. {MH 318.2}
 
Others think that since health requires a simple diet, there need be little care in the selection or the preparation of food. Some restrict themselves to a very meager diet, not having sufficient variety to supply the needs of the system, and they suffer in consequence. {MH 318.3}
 
Those who have but a partial understanding of the principles of reform are often the most rigid, not only in carrying out their views themselves, but in urging them on their families and their neighbors. The effect of their mistaken reforms, as seen in their own ill-health, and their efforts to force their views upon others, give many a false idea of dietetic reform, and lead them to reject it altogether. {MH 318.4}
 
Those who understand the laws of health and who are governed by principle, will shun the extremes, both of indulgence and of restriction. Their diet is chosen, not for the mere gratification of appetite, but for the upbuilding of the body. They seek to preserve every power in the best condition for highest service to God and man. The appetite is under the control of reason and conscience, and they are rewarded with health of body and mind. While they do not urge their views offensively upon others, their example is a testimony in favor of right principles. These persons have a wide influence for good. {MH 319.1}
 
There is real common sense in dietetic reform. The subject should be studied broadly and deeply, and no one should criticize others because their practice is not, in all things, in harmony with his own. It is impossible to make an unvarying rule to regulate everyone's habits, and no one should think himself a criterion for all. Not all can eat the same things. Foods that are palatable and wholesome to one person may be distasteful, and even harmful, to another. Some cannot use milk, while others thrive on it. Some persons cannot digest peas and beans; others find them wholesome. For some the coarser grain preparations are good food, while others cannot use them. {MH 319.2}
 
Those who live in new countries or in poverty-stricken districts, where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary. It is true that persons in full flesh and in whom the animal passions are strong need to avoid the use of stimulating foods. Especially in families of children who are given to sensual habits, eggs should not be used. But in the case of persons whose blood-making organs are feeble,--especially if other foods to supply the needed elements cannot be obtained,--milk and eggs should not be wholly discarded. Great care should be taken, however, to obtain milk from healthy cows, and eggs from healthy fowls, that are well fed and well cared for; and the eggs should be so cooked as to be most easily digested. {MH 320.1}
 
The diet reform should be progressive. As disease in animals increases, the use of milk and eggs will become more and more unsafe. An effort should be made to supply their place with other things that are healthful and inexpensive. The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable. {MH 320.2}
 
The practice of eating but two meals a day is generally found a benefit to health; yet under some circumstances persons may require a third meal. This should, however, if taken at all, be very light, and of food most easily digested. "Crackers"--the English biscuit--or zwieback, and fruit, or cereal coffee, are the foods best suited for the evening meal. {MH 321.1}
 
Some are continually anxious lest their food, however simple and healthful, may hurt them. To these let me say, Do not think that your food will injure you; do not think about it at all. Eat according to your best judgment; and when you have asked the Lord to bless the food for the strengthening of your body, believe that He hears your prayer, and be at rest. {MH 321.2}
 
Because principle requires us to discard those things that irritate the stomach and impair health, we should remember that an impoverished diet produces poverty of the blood. Cases of disease most difficult to cure result from this cause. The system is not sufficiently nourished, and dyspepsia and general debility are the result. Those who use such a diet are not always compelled by poverty to do so, but they choose it through ignorance or negligence, or to carry out their erroneous ideas of reform. {MH 321.3}
 
God is not honored when the body is neglected or abused and is thus unfitted for His service. To care for the body by providing for it food that is relishable and strengthening is one of the first duties of the householder. It is far better to have less expensive clothing and furniture than to stint the supply of food. {MH 322.1}
 
Some householders stint the family table in order to provide expensive entertainment for visitors. This is unwise. In the entertainment of guests there should be greater simplicity. Let the needs of the family have first attention. {MH 322.2}
 
Unwise economy and artificial customs often prevent the exercise of hospitality where it is needed and would be a blessing. The regular supply of food for our tables should be such that the unexpected guest can be made welcome withou tburdening the housewife to make extra preparation. {MH 322.3}
 
All should learn what to eat and how to cook it. Men, as well as women, need to understand the simple, healthful preparation of food. Their business often calls them where they cannot obtain wholesome food; then, if they have a knowledge of cookery, they can use it to good purpose. {MH 323.1}
 
Carefully consider your diet. Study from cause to effect. Cultivate self-control. Keep appetite under the control of reason. Never abuse the stomach by overeating, but do not deprive yourself of the wholesome, palatable food that health demands. {MH 323.2}
 
The narrow ideas of some would-be health reformers have been a great injury to the cause of hygiene. Hygienists should remember that dietetic reform will be judged, to a great degree, by the provision they make for their tables; and instead of taking a course that will bring discredit upon it, they should so exemplify its principles as to commend them to candid minds. There is a large class who will oppose any reform movement, however reasonable, if it places a restriction on the appetite. They consult taste instead of reason or the laws of health. By this class, all who leave the beaten track of custom and advocate reform will be accounted radical, no matter how consistent their course. That these persons may have no ground for criticism, hygienists should not try to see how different they can be from others, but should come as near to them as possible without the sacrifice of principle. {MH 323.3}
 
When those who advocate hygienic reform go to extremes, it is no wonder that many who regard these persons as representing health principles reject the reform altogether. These extremes frequently do more harm in a short time than could be undone by a lifetime of consistent living. {MH 324.1}
 
Hygienic reform is based upon principles that are broad and far-reaching, and we should not belittle it by narrow views and practices. But no one should permit opposition or ridicule, or a desire to please or influence others, to turn him from true principles, or cause him lightly to regard them. Those who are governed by principle will be firm and decided in standing for the right; yet in all their associations they will manifest a generous, Christlike spirit and true moderation. {MH 324.2}
 
 
1) people RARELYy know the condition of their animals wherentheir milk and/or eggs comes from.
2) people in poor countries who do not not be asked to give up milk and eggs IF they can't replace them.
3) Milk and eggs are are becoming (in (1905) unhealthful. What about NOW?
4) we should teach people to cook without milk or eggs.
 
Only those who truly understand health reform should advocate for it.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/05/20 04:40 AM

Yes, Green, I agree, the word "how" is very important.
"How" do we provide healthy meals without eggs and milk, must FIRST be taught and considered and practiced BEFORE laying aside eggs and milk.

To simply banish eggs and milk is foolish IF the HOW to replace them has not received serious thought and attention.

But we are to learn the HOW, and move forward. Not just learn HOW and remain in the old eating patterns. In fact if we don't move forward we soon forget the HOW.

We all know there are Vegans and then there are vegans
I've seen both types

The word "vegan" has deep spiritual roots associated with eastern religions. It has ethical implications and moral commitment. A true Vegan sees the whole matter as "sin" and "righteous works".
It's difficult to invite them for a meal,for not only will they not eat eggs and milk, they won't eat a whole long list of things. Also they are usually on a two meal a day diet, which further restricts their already restricted intake of nutrients. It's almost as if food becomes sin to them and they will eat only certain items prepared in a certain way. And yes, they do tend to give the impression you won't earn heaven unless you eat like them. Indeed that is Pharisaic, and not only results in a critical spirit but also nutritional deprivation.

But not all who move away from eggs and other animal products are like that:
There are others who follow a plant based diet, who may refer to their eating as vegan, but it's not the same as the above.

The second group have decided to move away from eggs and milk products and to learn to cook with other foods.
They still cook pleasant tasting meals and experiment with many different foods to make delicious and nutritious meals. They do not condemn others, who have not embarked on the same journey, but are happy to share recipes and encourage people to try the recipes. Their focus is to eat for health, not for salvation. When they are invited out to someones home for a meal, they don't make a big issue over whether something may have an egg, cottage cheese, or milk in it. They no it's not a sin to eat an occasional egg. It's a learning journey, not a rigid journey. They are happy to share their discoveries and recipes and encourage people to try them, but don't belittle or put people on guilt trips.
There's a difference in sharing and encouraging others to try it, as opposed to demanding that they do it or perish eternally.

It's true those in the first group tend to get sick. And if you reread your quotes you will find those reprimanded had taken the first approach.
Knocked out a number of foods, not just eggs and milk, and taught it as a doctrine.

"The DOCTRINE of dispensing with eggs and milk should not be taught." It's not to be taught as a DOCTRINE. It's a journey, a progressive journey of learning to cook good healthy meals without eggs and milk, not a DOCTRINE. It's not a sin to eat an occasional egg. It's a journey into eating other nutritious foods to replace the eggs and milk. As one learns one advances gradually into new eating patterns.

So while it should not be taught as a DOCTRINE, we are to teach people, and learn ourselves, how to replace eggs and milk with other nutritious foods.
We are to learn the HOW, and move forward with common sense and respect for others. But I don't think we are to just learn HOW and remain in the old eating patterns


Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/05/20 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by dedication
But I don't think we are to just learn HOW and remain in the old eating patterns


Well, Mrs. White makes it clear that we are not to give up milk and eggs until God reveals it is time. She doesn't say until we think it is time. She doesn't say until we see signs that it must be time. She doesn't say until the church tells us it is time, or until the food industry has made something delicious to replace the eggs--as if we were simply waiting to be able to please our palate on something new. She doesn't even say we are to give them up gradually over time. Here is what she says . . . .

Originally Posted by Ellen White
The time will come when (1) we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs; but my message is that you must not bring yourself to a time of trouble beforehand, and thus (2) afflict yourself with death. Wait till the Lord prepares the way before you. {TSDF 49.8}

(3) The reforms that are strained to the highest tension might accommodate (4) a certain class, who can obtain all they need to take the place of the things discarded; but this class forms a very small minority of the people to whom these tests seem unnecessary. (5) There are those who try to abstain from what is declared to be harmful. They fail to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought to disrepute. (6) The work we have tried to build up solidly is confused with strange things that God has not required. The energies of the church are crippled. {TSDF 49.9}

(7) But God will interfere to prevent the results of these too-strenuous ideas. The gospel is to harmonize the sinful race. It is to bring the rich and the poor together at the feet of Jesus. {TSDF 49.10}

(8) But I wish to say that when the time comes that it is no longer safe to use milk, cream, butter and eggs, God will reveal this. (9) No extremes in health reform are to be advocated. The question of using milk and butter and eggs will work out its own problem. (10) At present we have no burden on this line. Let your moderation be known unto all men. {TSDF 49.11}
[I've inserted reference numbers, but no text, to correspond with the list below.]

An unbiased reader, looking at the above passage, might acknowledge the following points:

1) We might have to give up milk and eggs at some point.
2) To give them up too soon will result in death.
3) Giving them up is considered by Mrs. White to be straining our health reforms "to the highest tension."
4) Only "a very small minority of the people" can be accommodated (health wise) by this extreme level of reform, having the ability to get everything they need (nutritionally) without the milk and eggs.
5) Anyone else (a member of the great majority) who listens to the voices of those who declare milk and eggs to be harmful, will "fail to supply the system with proper nourishment," and bring health reform into disrepute.
6) God has not required that milk and eggs be given up.
7) God will interfere to prevent the results of these too-strenuous ideas (it's too strenuous to give up milk and eggs).
8) When it's time to give them up, God will reveal this.
9) No extremes (i.e. giving up milk and eggs) in health reform are to be advocated (urged or called for).
10) We are not to teach people to give them up, but to "let [our] moderation be known unto all."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: jackson

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/05/20 08:27 PM

Green Cochoa,
I apologize for overlooking the fact that you did indeed quote my full statement. Sorry

I wasn?t chastising you as you claimed, I just thought from your response to my statement that you were overlooking the caveat I attached to the last part and then I wrongly assumed (without checking) that you omitted it.

You said?
Quote
If you wish to chastise others for not including full statements, it's a shame to see that you do not include Mrs. White's full statement either. In fact, the part you omitted shows that she is saying the exact opposite of what you have wished to have her say by quoting just a part of it. You do know that she speaks against this sort of misrepresentation of her words, don't you? So let's look at that full paragraph:


I did not quote the whole paragraph because I had already done so earlier in a post to you. Please see my post #101749. Also I do not see how the full statement changes the point I was making, i.e. animal food including eggs and dairy are stimulating foods. I left it out because it was not relevant to the point I was making. Please don?t attach some unseemly motive to its omission.

You said
Quote
?This world does not presently allow us to follow our ideal diet. We are on "Plan B" instead of "Plan
A.

Maybe where you live, you can't be a vegan. But where I live, and in most of N. America we can choose to be on plan A. I have been a vegan on plan A for 27 years .

I had some health problems back in my early 50?s, and a friend loaned me the book Counsels on Diet and Foods. I was highly motivated and read almost the whole book in a day or two. I immediately became a strict vegan- no animal products except some honey at times.I have never knowingly used animal milk during this period. My wife has slipped eggs into a menu from time to time, and, to keep the peace, I have knowingly eaten a dish containing eggs about a dozen times, maybe a little more.

I am now 80 years old, and I attribute my excellent health to God?s grace and the Adventist health message. I believed Mrs.White?s inspired word when she said:
Quote
In grains, fruits, vegetables, and nuts are to be found all the food elements that we need. If we will come to the Lord in simplicity of mind, Manuscript 27, 1906 { CD 92.2}


I have never given much credence to all anti-vegetarian articles listing the dangers of a strict plant food diet. But I am quite aware that one can be a junk food vegan and that can be more dangerous than being a meat eater. There is an adage that all all vegetarians should be mindful of when shopping for food-
Quote
When you leave the produce department you are leaving the food section.

I am fortunate. I live in a place where I can get a great variety of fresh fruits and vegetables 365 days a year. Organic nuts and grains are readily available. My wife loves to garden, so we have God?s food for the picking.

If I lived during Mrs. White?s time I would have probably opted for plan B, but God has given many of us here and now in North America the priviledge going to plan A.

My situation is not all that different from many other Adventists, and I see no reason why, with much prayer and diligent effort, many can get back to Plan A, - the diet God provided for His lapsarian people.

By the way, when I saw such wonderful benefit from following the 8 laws of health contained in our health message I began looking further into Adventism, and was soon baptized into the faith.

Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/06/20 01:12 AM

TSDF is a compilation, but green knows this. Green LOVES eggs! He can have them, don;t make everyone else eat them. We should TEACH everyone NOW how to cook without them. Green will never hear God say, give up eggs and milk.Nor acknowledge what God has SAID in The Ministry of Healing...
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/06/20 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by dedication
Yes, Green, I agree, the word "how" is very important.
"How" do we provide healthy meals without eggs and milk, must FIRST be taught and considered and practiced BEFORE laying aside eggs and milk.

You mean we shouldn't teach people HOW to stop smoking but not actually intend for them to ever to stop?
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/06/20 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
Even the Bible directs us to eat a little honey (an animal product), and many use it as a natural remedy--but a pure vegan would eschew it.

I'm curious as to what ways does Green consider honey an animal product.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/06/20 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by kland
Originally Posted by dedication
Yes, Green, I agree, the word "how" is very important.
"How" do we provide healthy meals without eggs and milk, must FIRST be taught and considered and practiced BEFORE laying aside eggs and milk.

You mean we shouldn't teach people HOW to stop smoking but not actually intend for them to ever to stop?


How long have you been a vegan, kland? It seems you need to put something back into your diet that you have left out. Your reasoning skills are beginning to suffer already.

Mrs. White never once recommended smoking; on the contrary, she condemned it in the strongest of terms. That she recommended both milk and eggs, even including milk and cream as part of "the most healthful diet," and that she told a doctor not to teach people to give them up, shows they are entirely unlike smoking. How then would you arrive at such an invalid conclusion?

Here's one that would be more representative: Mrs. White has told us that a Sunday law will come. Because it must come, should we do all in our power to bring it about? or should we seek to delay it as long as possible? Then, when it comes, shall we continue our ordinary work on that day, or use the day, instead, for visitation of our neighbors in Christian evangelism?

Mrs. White said our church should avoid taking an official position about what to do on Sunday when the legislation comes--until that time has arrived. Many still try to cross their bridges before they have come to them.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
When the Sunday question is legislated to become a law, there will not be so great a danger of taking steps that are not of a character to receive the sanction of Heaven . . . for the reason that the Lord gives light and knowledge just when it is most needed. . . . {3SM 394.3}
While all Sabbathkeepers are anxious and troubled, seeking to penetrate the mysteries of the future, and to learn all they can in regard to the correct position they shall take, be careful that they are advised correctly in regard to Sunday observance. . . . There will ever be danger of going to extremes. . . . {3SM 394.4}


The principle is the same today as it has always been, FOLLOW the Pillar of Cloud, don't run ahead of it. We may, today, teach people that when that time comes, we may have to give up our ordinary labors on the Sunday--but we must not take this step until God reveals that it is time to do so.

That is just as things stand on the vegan question. We are expressly told to wait until God reveals it is time before we give up milk and eggs.


Originally Posted by kland
Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
Even the Bible directs us to eat a little honey (an animal product), and many use it as a natural remedy--but a pure vegan would eschew it.

I'm curious as to what ways does Green consider honey an animal product.


I recall posting here once before that I have worked as a beekeeper. One of the other posters here has also--Rick, I think. I know bees well. And I know that they are animals. Honey is their product. You will have a hard time finding anyone, scientist or otherwise, who would deny that honey is an animal product. While it may be largely from the nectar of flowers, it is not entirely so, nor it is unchanged in its state from its original condition. Bees process the honey, both in their bodies (mostly storing it, but it passes their salivary glands as well), and in their hives. They dehydrate the honey until it reaches a humidity point at which it will not spoil, but be preserved. And, they may convert some of the honey to wax to help store the honey and build their hive.

The very definition of "vegan" has excluded honey from the outset.

Quote
The simplest reason why honey isn't vegan is by definition. The term vegan was coined by Donald Watson in 1944 and was defined as follows:

Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived wholly or in part from animals (Stepaniak).


But, you will argue, you aren't a religious vegan, just a dietary vegan. Alright, then, perhaps you would like to know that honey is not purely of plant origin. The following scientific article describes the process in more technical terms than most would like to know.

https://www.livescience.com/37611-what-is-honey-honeybees.html

Here's a pertinent quote from that page:

Quote
Nectar ? a sugary liquid ? is extracted from flowers using a bee's long, tube-shaped tongue and stored in its extra stomach, or "crop." While sloshing around in the crop, the nectar mixes with enzymes that transform its chemical composition and pH, making it more suitable for long-term storage.

When a honeybee returns to the hive, it passes the nectar to another bee by regurgitating the liquid into the other bee's mouth. This regurgitation process is repeated until the partially digested nectar is finally deposited into a honeycomb.


Perhaps more importantly, for those preparing for translation to heaven per Ellen White's recommendations, honey is off the list. Fruits and grains--that's it. No honey. No nuts. No vegetables. No milk. No eggs. No mushrooms. No meat. Those wishing to get to Heaven by their own works, on their own merits and laurels, should be consuming only fruits and grains--at least, if they choose to interpret Ellen White so narrowly as they seem want to do.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
347. Grains and fruits prepared free from grease, and in as natural a condition as possible, should be the food for the tables of all who claim to be preparing for translation to heaven.--T., V. II, p. 352. {HL 78.5} [1897, 1898]

(Sorry, APL, that's from a compilation. You might not like that.)

Have you given up your almonds and potatoes yet?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

P.S. For those who see this last quote by Ellen White as being used in an imbalanced, out-of-context manner, I fully agree. The point I make is not that we should be giving up nuts, honey, or vegetables; it is that Mrs. White did not customarily choose to list all things when making a point. The statement is intended, based on its context, to contrast a vegetarian diet with a flesh diet. The same is true of the statement that says all nutrients may be found in the fruits, vegetables, and grains. She was contrasting a vegetarian diet with one of a meat-eater--she was not making any statement about milk and eggs in that statement. -- GC.
Posted By: jackson

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/08/20 02:50 AM

What is Mrs. White's counsel for the optimum Adventist diet for our day..?

The optimum diet:
Quote
In grains, fruits, vegetables, and nuts are to be found all the food elements that we need. If we will come to the Lord in simplicity of mind, Manuscript 27, 1906 { CD 92.2}

The Lord intends to bring His people back to live upon simple fruits, vegetables, and grains. {CDF 322.5}

In choosing man's food in Eden, the Lord showed what was the best diet; CDF 374


So why did she, in her day, caution against the complete elimination of milk and eggs? They were not included in the ideal diet, so why not eliminate them?

She answers this clearly in the following inspired statements:
Quote
While I would discard flesh meat as injurious, something less objectionable may be used, and this is found in eggs. Do not remove milk from the table or forbid its being used in the cooking of food. The milk used should be procured from healthy cows, and should be sterilized. { CD 202.4}

Parents should discard everything that endangers the moral and physical health of their children. They should not place flesh-meat on the table. And if they allow their children to eat meat freely, use butter and eggs, disease in some form will surely result, impairing the health of mind and body. Thus spirituality is weakened and often destroyed. {PUR, October 9, 1902 par. 11}

Milk, eggs, and butter should not be classed with flesh meat. In some cases the use of eggs is beneficial. The time has not come to say that the use of milk and eggs should be wholly discarded. There are poor families whose diet consists largely of bread and milk. They have little fruit, and cannot afford to purchase the nut foods. In teaching health reform, as in all other gospel work, we are to meet the people where they are. Until we can teach them how to prepare health reform foods that are palatable, nourishing, and yet inexpensive, we are not at liberty to present t
Quote
he most advanced propositions
regarding health reform diet. {CD 351.2}


So, one can logically gather from these statements that eggs and milk are less objectionable than flesh foods. They provided essential nutrients to diets deficient in a variety of fruits, nuts grains and vegetables. Not only was it the poor who needed milk and egg supplementation, but during Mrs. White's time even prosperous families could not always obtain wholesome plant foods in sufficeint quantities year riound. Milk and eggs, then, were necessary to make up for the nutrional deficiencies of an inadequate diet.

Milk and eggs, can be discarded when God arranges circumstances where the best foods are available. The Lord does not always speak to us audibly in a still small voice. Many times we must wait until He opens a way for us, and when we see His providence in arranging favorable circumstances, that is evidence that He is speaking to us. Then we venture forth in prayer, faith and study.

We must always be open to new light that God brings to us after Mrs. White;s time. Overly washed and sanitized produce means we will need B12 vitamin supplementation. Living in cloudy climates may necessitate some Vitamin D3 supplementation. But God will make such information available to us as we sincerely choose to live out the health message.

The health message is our endtime manna.
Quote
?The light that God has given and will continue to give on the food question is to be to His people today what the manna was to the children of Israel.? CDF p269.1



Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/08/20 01:04 PM

There is no evidence that adequate B12 will be supplied from either not brushing one's teeth or eating unwashed vegetables. If either of these were a suitable replacement for milk and eggs, surely Mrs. White could have told us so, for those options existed in her day. Instead, she promoted "hygienic" cooking schools. Not washing one's produce is certainly not a part of the definition of "hygienic."

Originally Posted by Ellen White
. . . Many attempt to follow out meager instructions in health reform, and make such sad work that it results in injury to digestion, and in discouragement to all concerned in the attempt. You profess to be health reformers, and for this very reason you should become good cooks. Those who can avail themselves of the advantages of properly conducted hygienic cooking-schools, will find it a great benefit, both in their own practice and in teaching others. {CTBH 119.2}

399. The Lord would have a knowledge of diet reform imparted to the people of God. It is an essential part of the education to be given in our schools. As the truth is presented in new places, lessons should be given in hygienic cookery. Teach the people how they may live without the use of flesh meats. Teach them the simplicity of living. {CD 268.2}


Eggs and milk were not flesh meats. We are to teach people both to give up the flesh foods and to cook hygienically. If you're trying to get B12 by the lack of hygiene in cooking, you're looking in the wrong direction to find either truth or health.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/10/20 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by ellen white
The diet reform should be progressive. As disease in animals increases, the use of milk and eggs will become more and more unsafe. An effort should be made to supply their place with other things that are healthful and inexpensive. The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable. {CCh 225.4}
does green follow the prophet?
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/10/20 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
We are to teach people both to give up the flesh foods and to cook hygienically.

Green: We are to teach people both to give up the flesh foods and to cook hygienically
and expect them to give them up.

White:
Concerning flesh meat, we should educate the people to let it alone. Its use is contrary to the best development of the physical, mental, and moral powers. And we should bear a clear testimony against the use of tea and coffee. It is also well to discard rich desserts. Milk, eggs, and butter should not be classed with flesh meat. In some cases the use of eggs is beneficial. The time has not come to say that the use of milk and eggs should be wholly discarded. There are poor families whose diet consists largely of bread and milk. They have little fruit and cannot afford to purchase the nut foods. In teaching health reform, as in all other gospel work, we are to meet the people where they are. Until we can teach them how to prepare health-reform foods that are palatable, nourishing, and yet inexpensive, we are not at liberty to present the most advanced propositions regarding health-reform diet. {CH 477.6}

Green: Except for that!
We are to teach, but not expect. "Until", means never to happen.


What does one call it when one follows advice they agree with, but discards advice they don't wish to follow?
Posted By: kland

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/10/20 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
There is no evidence that adequate B12 will be supplied from either not brushing one's teeth or eating unwashed vegetables.
And there is no evidence that adequate B12 will be supplied by eating one egg.
Posted By: jackson

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/11/20 04:43 AM

Here is an interesting article about vitamin B12 and how it is produced..only by bacteria.

https://www.b12-vitamin.com/gut-bacteria/

Aside from the B12 aspects of the article, there is a nice explanation of the role our gut bacteria (our microbiome) contribute to our physical as well as mental health.

One paragraph in the article gives evidence to the statements Mrs White said 150 years ago about the close communication between the digestive system and the brain.

From the article:
Quote
Today, the microbiome is therefore often understood as another vital and highly specialised organ in the human body. What is more, it has also been shown that there is constant communication between the intestinal bacteria and the brain and central nervous system ? very similar to that of an ordinary organ


From the SOP:
Quote
The stomach has a controlling power upon the health of the entire body.... The brain nerves are in strong sympathy with the stomach.? The Health Reformer, October 1, 1871. { HL 162.4 }
The healthful use of the unstimulating articles of food will not excite the nerves by irritating the stomach and debilitating brain nerve power. { 19MR 344.2 }


Posted By: APL

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/12/20 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by APL
Originally Posted by ellen white
The diet reform should be progressive. As disease in animals increases, the use of milk and eggs will become more and more unsafe. An effort should be made to supply their place with other things that are healthful and inexpensive. The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable. {CCh 225.4}
does green follow the prophet?
the answer is NO! on many things!
Posted By: Rick H

Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment - 02/17/20 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by kland
Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
We are to teach people both to give up the flesh foods and to cook hygienically.

Green: We are to teach people both to give up the flesh foods and to cook hygienically
and expect them to give them up.

White:
Concerning flesh meat, we should educate the people to let it alone. Its use is contrary to the best development of the physical, mental, and moral powers. And we should bear a clear testimony against the use of tea and coffee. It is also well to discard rich desserts. Milk, eggs, and butter should not be classed with flesh meat. In some cases the use of eggs is beneficial. The time has not come to say that the use of milk and eggs should be wholly discarded. There are poor families whose diet consists largely of bread and milk. They have little fruit and cannot afford to purchase the nut foods. In teaching health reform, as in all other gospel work, we are to meet the people where they are. Until we can teach them how to prepare health-reform foods that are palatable, nourishing, and yet inexpensive, we are not at liberty to present the most advanced propositions regarding health-reform diet. {CH 477.6}

Green: Except for that!
We are to teach, but not expect. "Until", means never to happen.


What does one call it when one follows advice they agree with, but discards advice they don't wish to follow?


When you see people eating what is going to hurt them, it's just common courtesy and compassion to want to help with what helps them or can heal.
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