Can sinning be overcome....

Or does the Bible teach that sinning can be overcome, and if so, how?

Yes, the Bible does teach that born again believers can, and must, cease sinning. Here are a few sample texts (which also explain the "how"):

Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 jOHN
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The root of sin is unbelief. Without addressing the root, I think it's inevitable that sinning continues.

So with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit our hearts and minds are cleansed and we are reborn in the Spirit and have the mind of Christ?

I am more inclined to believe that when self dies we are born again and then the Holy Spirit begins empowering us from within to imitate the holy example of Jesus. Here's the formula, the sequence:

Isaiah
1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

First - Cease to do evil (crucify self, the old man)
Second - Learn to do well (imitate the holy example of Jesus)

2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 Peter
2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

But is any of it from self, or all the Holy Spirit's transformation after we are led to accept that path...?

MM, is there room in the formula for the cross, the love of God, or faith?

But is any of it from self, or all the Holy Spirit's transformation after we are led to accept that path...?

MM, is there room in the formula for the cross, the love of God, or faith?

Yes. The texts I posted include all of the above.

Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Isaiah
1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 Peter
2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

I am more inclined to believe that when self dies we are born again and then the Holy Spirit begins empowering us from within to imitate the holy example of Jesus. Here's the formula, the sequence:

Isaiah
1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 Peter
2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

First - Cease to do evil (crucify self, the old man)
Second - Learn to do well (imitate the holy example of Jesus)

Yes, this is, of course, an awesome text; but what about the cross? It doesn't mention the cross. And, what about mercy and forgiveness, faith and works, law and grace, righteousness and true holiness? Are these things too complicated to be included in your formula?

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.(John 3:14-16)

Verse 14 implies the cross; but verse 16 doesn't.

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16.

The heart of God yearns over His earthly children with a love stronger than death. In giving up His Son, He has poured out to us all heaven in one gift.

Through that gift there comes to us day by day the unfailing flow of Jehovah's goodness. Every flower, with its delicate tints and sweet fragrance, is given for our enjoyment through that one Gift. The sun and moon were made by Him; there is not a star that beautifies the heavens which He did not make. There is not an article of food upon our tables that He has not provided for our sustenance. The superscription of Christ is upon it all. Everything is supplied to man through the one unspeakable Gift, the only-begotten Son of God. He was nailed to the cross that all these bounties might flow to God's workmanship. (FILB 45)

The revelation of God's love to man centers in the cross. Its full significance tongue cannot utter, pen cannot portray, the mind of man cannot comprehend. Looking upon the cross of Calvary, we can only say, "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). (Reflecting Christ 33)

-Justification by faith is to many a mystery. A sinner is justified by God when he repents of his sins. He sees Jesus upon the cross of Calvary. Why all this suffering? The law of Jehovah has been broken. The law of God's government in heaven and earth has been transgressed, and the penalty of sin is pronounced to be death. But "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Oh, what love, what matchless love! Christ, the Son of God, dying for guilty man! (3SM 193)

The revelation of God's love to men centers in the cross. Its full significance tongue cannot utter; pen cannot portray; the mind of man cannot comprehend. Looking upon the cross of Calvary we can only say: "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. (8T 287)

Also, it doesn't say anything about mercy and forgiveness, faith and works, law and grace, righteousness and true holiness. Are these things too complicated to be included in a formula?

And as Christ draws them to look upon His cross, to behold Him whom their sins have pierced, the commandment comes home to the conscience. The wickedness of their life, the deep-seated sin of the soul, is revealed to them. They begin to comprehend something of the righteousness of Christ, and exclaim, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice for the redemption of its victim? Was all this love, all this suffering, all this humiliation, demanded, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life?"

The sinner may resist this love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus; a knowledge of the plan of salvation will lead him to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins, which have caused the sufferings of God's dear Son. (SC 27)

In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. (MB 76)

Isaiah
1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 Peter
2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

John
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1. The love of God, as demonstrated by the death of Jesus, motivates us to cease to do evil.

2. The love of God, as demonstrated by the life of Jesus, motivates us to learn to do well.

Well, and I almost hate to bring it up, there is the question concerning what constitutes an unknown sin. My studies have led me to conclude there is no such thing as an unknown sin as defined by the last six commandments. That is, no human can violate one of the last six commandments without an awareness of conscious guilt and wrongdoing.

Sins of ommission, if we take the prophets word for it that what God really requires of us is compassion with the powerless and the defenceless, then we are all deep into it once again.

I agree with the first part of this ("Sins of omission, if we take the prophets word for it that what God really requires of us is compassion with the powerless and the defenseless") completely, but I don't understand the second part ("then we are all deep into it once again".)

What are the 'ten words'??

Sanctification is the process of becoming more and more mature, more and more like Jesus. As such, this process, which begins here, will go on forever. In fact, eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to become more Christlike. This “work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186)

"Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God. (ML 249) “The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.” Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. (ML 250)

The process of perfecting godly traits of character doesn’t begin until after we cease sinning. “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1)

We begin, as it were, as candlelight, and throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity we will shine ever brighter and brighter unto the honor and glory of God. But we will never equal the brightness of Jesus, who outshines the sun. We will never stop becoming more and more like Jesus. Oh, blessed eternity!

By the way, the difference between candlelight and sunlight is not darkness; rather the difference has to do with depth and degree of righteousness. In other words, the difference between born again believers and Jesus Christ is maturity. Jesus is infinitely more mature in the fruits of the Spirit than we will ever be. But, again, the difference has to do with righteousness, not sinfulness.

Tom, I know what you mean. Knowing you are perfect and hoping you are perfect are worlds apart. John wrote, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." It is far better to know you are perfect than to go around wondering and doubting. Knowing is the stuff of faith; doubting is the stuff of disbelief. "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them."

It is far better to know you are perfect than to go around wondering and doubting. Knowing is the stuff of faith; doubting is the stuff of disbelief.

1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God.
3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

This about knocked me off my chair. Before I comment, would you explain what you mean here?

It is far better to know you are perfect than to go around wondering and doubting. Knowing is the stuff of faith; doubting is the stuff of disbelief.

It is far better to know you are perfect than to go around wondering and doubting. Knowing is the stuff of faith; doubting is the stuff of disbelief.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.(1 John 1:8)

1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

TE: Let me ask my question this way. Do you know that you are perfect?

MM: Is it kind to ask this question? Would it be wise to answer it?

It is far better to know you are perfect than to go around wondering and doubting.

MM: He qualifies what he means by "no sin" in the larger context (verses 5-10). "No sin" is referring to past sins, not present or future sins. If we 1) confess our sins, He is faithful to 2) forgive and to 3) cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Then He empowers us to walk in the light as He is in the light. We have fellowship with Him. It cannot mean we will sin occasionally.

TE: Let me ask my question this way. Do you know that you are perfect?

MM: Is it kind to ask this question? Would it be wise to answer it? The promises speak for themselves, don't they? Of himself, Paul, perhaps under inspiration, wrote:

2 Timothy
4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:
4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

---

TE: Regarding what the 1 John passage means, it means that it is not characteristic of a child of God to sin. Earlier in his epistle he writes: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.(1 John 1:8) What he says later in the epistle cannot be made to contradict what he says elsewhere.

MM: He qualifies what he means by "no sin" in the larger context (verses 5-10). "No sin" is referring to past sins, not present or future sins. If we 1) confess our sins, He is faithful to 2) forgive and to 3) cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Then He empowers us to walk in the light as He is in the light. We have fellowship with Him. It cannot mean we will sin occasionally.

1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

---

TE: He writes to us that we "sin not," but makes provision that *if* (not "when," but "if) anyone sins, we have an advocate.

MM: Amen!

TE: "It is far better to know you are perfect than to go around wandering and doubting." Not a wise sentiment. It is far better to know our need of Christ than to go around wandering and doubting. That's a better sentiment.

MM: Which is easier to say, Thy sins are forgiven or Rise up and walk? As I see it there is an inseparable symbiotic relationship between knowing we are perfect in Christ and knowing we are perfect because the Bible says so. It is the blessed assurance. The bottom line is – In Christ our heavenly Father sees us as if we have never sinned. Faith is the victory; doubt is our undoing.

Do you believe it, Tom? Or, do you doubt it? Does our heavenly Father see us in Christ as if we have never sinned? And, if we have never sinned, are we perfect? What thinkest thou?

---

MM: The promises speak for themselves, don't they? Of himself, Paul, perhaps under inspiration, wrote:

2 Timothy
4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:
4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Did Paul believe that in Christ he was perfect?

---

TE: It can mean we might sin occasionally. He says if we sin, we have an advocate. He doesn't say a Christian will never sin. He certainly doesn't say we should know that we are perfect.

MM: Yes, his use of the word “if” does mean it might happen. But it also means it doesn’t have to happen. Sinning isn’t inevitable or automatic. In fact, in Christ, it will not and cannot happen. That is precisely what Jesus promises. And, in Christ, we know we are perfect, we know our heavenly Father sees us as if we have never sinned. How much more perfect can it get?

Again, please do not assume I am also saying there is no room to grow in grace, no room to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. In the same way Jesus grew and matured from childhood to adulthood, so too, we will grow and mature, starting here and continuing throughout eternity.

Such progression, however, does not include gradually outgrowing our cultivated habits of sinning. Instead, it means maturing more and more in exactly the same way Jesus did. As such, it doesn't involve sinning less; it means maturing more in righteousness and true holiness, "perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Cor 7:1)

TE: "It is far better to know you are perfect than to go around wandering and doubting." Not a wise sentiment. It is far better to know our need of Christ than to go around wandering and doubting. That's a better sentiment.

MM: Which is easier to say, Thy sins are forgiven or Rise up and walk? As I see it there is an inseparable symbiotic relationship between knowing we are perfect in Christ

It is far better to know you are perfect than to go around wandering and doubting.

and knowing we are perfect because the Bible says so. It is the blessed assurance. The bottom line is – In Christ our heavenly Father sees us as if we have never sinned. Faith is the victory; doubt is our undoing.

Do you believe it, Tom? Or, do you doubt it? Does our heavenly Father see us in Christ as if we have never sinned? And, if we have never sinned, are we perfect? What thinkest thou?

Tom, I am sorry for the confusion. It never pays to leave out the most important words - in Christ. Thank you for pointing it out.

What do you think "in Christ, we are perfect" means?

Jesus is perfect. Christ's righteousness is imputed unto them, and He will say, "Take away the filthy garments from him and clothe him with change of raiment." Jesus makes up for our unavoidable deficiencies. Where Christians are faithful to each other, true and loyal to the Captain of the Lord's host, never betraying trusts into the enemy's hands, they will be transformed into Christ's character. Jesus will abide in their hearts by faith.--Letter 17a, 1891

Do you have in mind justification or sanctification or both?

In other words, in Christ are we perfect in reality; or, are we only perfect on paper? That is, in Christ are we perfect in the intrinsic sense or only in the forensic sense or both?

TE: Possibly it may be the case that one thinks one is perfect in Christ without actually being perfect in Christ.

MM: If, as you say, being perfect in Christ includes being totally blind to all sorts of imperfections - no one is "actually" perfect in Christ, right?

Now, Martha, do not look to yourself but away to Jesus. Talk of His love, talk of His goodness, talk of His power, for He will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able to bear. But in Christ is our righteousness. Jesus makes up our deficiencies because He sees we cannot do it ourselves. While praying for you I see a soft light encompassing a hand stretched out to save you. God's words are our credentials. We stand upon them. (Daughter of God 146)

TE: The seriousness of imperfections has to do with the willingness to deal with them when the truth is pointed out by the Holy Spirit. Everyone has imperfections, but the true follower of Christ will respond to the Holy Spirit when these imperfections are pointed out.

MM: Questions:

1. Are you saying that the reason we aren't aware of certain imperfections is because the Holy Spirit hasn't pointed them out to us yet?

2. Is the reason why the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed them to us due to the fact we aren't willing to deal with them yet?

3. Is it because we would we choose to grieve the Holy Spirit instead of crucifying them?

4. Are these imperfections obvious to the people around us?

5. Do they misrepresent Christ to the people around us?

TE: You wrote, "If being perfect in Christ includes being totally blind to all sorts of imperfections, then no one is 'actually' perfect in Christ."

Why not? If being in Christ includes being blind to certain imperfections, then one can be blind to these imperfections and still be perfect in Christ, by definition.

MM: But no one is "actually" (in reality) perfect, right? We are actually, in reality, imperfect.

TE: Deficiencies means the same thing as imperfections, right?

MM: I'm not sure. Either way, is it referring to unknown sinful habits, behaviors that offend people around us, that misrepresent Jesus, that bing reproach upon the cause and church of Christ?

In order to purify and refine our characters, we need the grace given us of Christ that will enable us to see and correct our deficiencies and improve that which is excellent in our characters. {CG 164.2}

Self-knowledge leads to humility and to trust in God, but it does not take the place of efforts for self-improvement. He who realizes his own deficiencies will spare no pains to reach the highest possible standard of physical, mental, and moral excellence. {CT 67.1}

The Lord God of heaven will not supply the deficiencies that result from mental and spiritual indolence. {FE 374.1}

Constantly God is laboring to make up man's deficiencies. Even repentance is brought about through the application of grace. The natural heart feels no need of repentance…. Faith, too, is the gift of God. {HP 221}

God will take men who do not appear to be so richly endowed, who have not large self-confidence, and He will make the weak strong, because they trust in Him to do for them that which they cannot do for themselves. God will accept the wholehearted service, and will Himself make up the deficiencies. {MH 150.3}

Jesus is perfect. Christ's righteousness is imputed unto them, and He will say, "Take away the filthy garments from him and clothe him with change of raiment." Jesus makes up for our unavoidable deficiencies. Where Christians are faithful to each other, true and loyal to the Captain of the Lord's host, never betraying trusts into the enemy's hands, they will be transformed into Christ's character. Jesus will abide in their hearts by faith. {3SM 196.1}

Let none of our brethren imagine that they are doing God's service in presenting the deficiencies of men who have done good, grand, acceptable work in laboring to unfold the message of mercy to fallen men, for the salvation of perishing souls. Suppose that these brethren have weak traits of character which they have inherited from their deficient ancestors, shall these deficiencies be hunted up and made prominent? {3SM 342.2}

In the Old Testament, people had multiple wives. This was as much of a sin then as it is now, yet many people who followed God were ignorant of this.

Yes.

But did it offend the people around them? Did it cause them to loathe God?

And, why didn't the Holy Spirit reveal it to them? Is it because God was willing, for a time, to "wink" at it?

Are there any unknown sinful practices that God is willing, for a time, to "wink" at nowadays?

That is, behaviors which offend people around us, which misrepresent Jesus, which cause people to despise the Gospel?

Could it be that some of the things in our list of sins have more to do with adventisms victorian/puritan herritage than with any biblical view of sin? Obviously Abram and his sons had no concept of sinfullness in having several wives.

In the beginning, God gave to Adam one wife, thus showing his order. He never designed that man should have a plurality of wives… This was one of the great sins of the inhabitants of the old world, which brought the wrath of God upon them. This custom was practiced after the flood, and became so common that even righteous men fell into the practice, and had a plurality of wives. Yet it was no less sin because they became corrupted, and departed in this thing from God's order. {3SG 99.1}

God has not sanctioned polygamy in a single instance. It was contrary to his will. He knew that the happiness of man would be destroyed by it. {3SG 100.1}

Skeptics have assailed christianity, and ridiculed the Bible, because David gave them occasion. They bring up to Christians the case of David, his sin in the case of Uriah and Bathsheba, his polygamy, and then assert that David is called a man after God's own heart, and if the Bible record is correct, God justified David in his crimes. {4aSG 86.2}

If truth is progressive, if God reveals truth as mankind can bear it, shouldn't we expect the standard to rise, wouldn't God expect more of us as we draw nearer to the end of probation?

TE: I mentioned polygamy because you have a theory that the last 6 commandments people know from birth, and can't ignorantly break them, but polygamy is an obvious case where this is not true.

MM: Tom, which one of the last six commandments forbids polygamy?

The seventh commandment simply forbids having sexual relations with someone you're not married to.

It doesn't specifically forbid having more than one spouse. Sister White cited God's "will" and "order" for marriage by pointing out the fact God gave Adam one wife. She doesn't point out that it violates the seventh commandment.

TE: "Are there any unknown sinful practices that God is willing, for a time, to 'wink' at nowadays?" If there were, and God were winking at them, then we wouldn't know, right? So you're asking a question that's impossible to answer.

MM: So, what are you suggesting? Are you saying it is possible that God is "winking" at certain sinful behaviors which offend people around us, which misrepresent Jesus, which cause people to despise the Gospel, that He is willing to allow us to go on in ignorance until He feels the time is right to reveal it to us, until the Holy Spirit can safely reveal it to us without blowing us away or causing us to lose faith?

If so, can you name any such sinful behaviors, which are obvious to people around us, but unknown to ourselves? Please understand I am talking about sinful behaviors that are unknown to us but known to others, sinful behaviors that are unknown to us because the Holy Spirit has not yet been given permission to reveal them to us. Do you know of any sinful behaviors that still fall into this category?

TE: People get offended at just about anything, even at people who are not doing anything wrong.

MM: True. But I'm not sure how this insight is helpful. Why are you pointing this out?

TE: Regarding misrepresenting Jesus, if we do not understand God's character, then isn't it inevitable that we will misrepresent Him? At least, whenever we open our mouth and speak about Him?

MM: "It is impossible for finite minds fully to comprehend the character or the works of the Infinite One." (SC 105) It stands to reason, therefore, we cannot, in this lifetime, fully understand God's character or kingdom. Based on what you posted above, that is, if we do not understand God's character we cannot help misrepresenting Him, is offending people inevitable, something we cannot help doing?

MM: Sister White cited God's "will" and "order" for marriage by pointing out the fact God gave Adam one wife. She doesn't point out that it violates the seventh commandment.

TE: Even just looking at someone with an impure thought breaks the commandment, regardless of whether you are married or not.

MM: So, what are you suggesting? Are you saying it is possible that God is "winking" at certain sinful behaviors which offend people around us, which misrepresent Jesus, which cause people to despise the Gospel, that He is willing to allow us to go on in ignorance until He feels the time is right to reveal it to us, until the Holy Spirit can safely reveal it to us without blowing us away or causing us to lose faith?

If so, can you name any such sinful behaviors, which are obvious to people around us, but unknown to ourselves? Please understand I am talking about sinful behaviors that are unknown to us but known to others, sinful behaviors that are unknown to us because the Holy Spirit has not yet been given permission to reveal them to us. Do you know of any sinful behaviors that still fall into this category?

TE: Well, since I just pointed out that if there were any sins that God was winking at, that we wouldn't know what they were, I could hardly point them out, could I?

TE: People get offended at just about anything, even at people who are not doing anything wrong.

MM: True. But I'm not sure how this insight is helpful. Why are you pointing this out?

TE: Because you asked if God would permit people to do things which would offend others.

TE: Regarding knowing the character of God, what I'm thinking of specifically is not knowing something about God's character, but "knowing" the reverse of what's true regarding God's character.

Her quote is addressing things we don't know. Of course, we cannot speak of that which we don't know. I wasn't addressing this, but rather saying things about God which aren't true.

You're not a politician-in-training (pit) are you?

Do such impure looks constitute polygamy?

Where in the Bible or the SOP does it say polygamy violates the seventh commandment?

I’m not asking if you could point them out in yourself. Instead, I’m asking you to name any sinful behaviors that still fall into this category today.

Are you suggesting polygamy is an example of a sinful behavior God still “winks” at today?

In the Old Testament, people had multiple wives. This was as much of a sin then as it is now, yet many people who followed God were ignorant of this.

Keep in mind, my friend, I’m not talking about people who have never studied with a Bible worker. I’m referring specifically to people who have been properly prepared for baptism, who have experienced the miracle of rebirth, who are SDA members in good and regular standing, who are abiding in Jesus, who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

Are you saying God permits people to do things that are not wrong, things which also happen to offend people, which cause them to despise the Gospel?

Do you mean something like God permitting a born again believer to obey the law? If so, it doesn’t make sense to me, because God commands us to obey the law. He doesn’t permit us to obey the law.

So, there are at least two ways the people described above can misrepresent God’s character and kingdom:1) By believing something untrue about God, and 2) By not knowing everything they can know or need to know about God? And, these things cause people to despise the Gospel. Here’s my question – Why is the Holy Spirit waiting to reveal it to them? Is the truth about God so overwhelming it would cause them to apostatize?

Can we drop polygamy as an example of God winking at sinful behavior nowadays? Or, do you think He still winks at it? Remember, I'm not talking about people 100 years ago, or people who have never heard of Jesus, or Laodiceans, or uninformed tribes in deep, dark continents.

I’m referring specifically to people who have been properly prepared for baptism, who have experienced the miracle of rebirth, who are SDA members in good and regular standing, who are abiding in Jesus, who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, who are Spirit led believers.

TE: Your theory was that the last 6 commandments are known by instinct, that we can't ignorantly break any of them.

MM: This is true.

TE: Polygamy disproves your theory, which is why I mentioned it.

MM: This is not true.

TE: I'm not sure what you're getting at in the rest of the post.

MM: Does God wink at these kinds of offensive behaviors in the types of Christians I described above? In other words, can they behave in such ways without realizing they are being horribly unlike Jesus? Does the Holy Spirit allow them to go on behaving unlike Jesus without revealing it to them? If so, why?

TE: Sure it is. Polygamy is a sin. It doesn't break one of the 4 first commandments, therefore it breaks one of the last 6. It's not something known by instinct, so this disproves your theory.

MM: Prove it. Your saying so doesn't make it so, right? In the process, you might want to prove how incest was a sin during the early days of mankind.

Abraham had accepted without question the promise of a son, but he did not wait for God to fulfill His word in His own time and way. A delay was permitted, to test his faith in the power of God; but he failed to endure the trial. Thinking it impossible that a child should be given her in her old age, Sarah suggested, as a plan by which the divine purpose might be fulfilled, that one of her handmaidens should be taken by Abraham as a secondary wife. Polygamy had become so widespread that it had ceased to be regarded as a sin, but it was no less a violation of the law of God, and was fatal to the sacredness and peace of the family relation. Abraham's marriage with Hagar resulted in evil, not only to his own household, but to future generations. (PP 145; emphasis mine)

TE: For example, regarding yourself, you seem reticent to receive truths revealed by Jones and Waggoner.

MM: Can you prove they wrote something that is needful for my salvation that is not also explained in the SOP?

When Brother Waggoner brought out these ideas in the Minneapolis Conference, it was the first clear teaching of the subject from any human lips I had heard, excepting the communication between myself and my husband. I have said to myself, it is because God has presented it to me in vision that I see it so clearly, and they (the brethren at Battle Creek) cannot see it because they have not had it presented to them as I have, and when another presented it, every fiber of my heart said Amen.—MS 5, 1889

TE: By "prove it," I assume you mean to prove that polygamy is a sin. I'm surprised you would dispute such a thing.

MM: Have you “proved” it? If it was a sin, why did God wink at it? Where in the Bible does it say it was a sin?

TE: Regarding your question, you're simply reposting what I said was not clear to me what you were asking, not surprisingly, did not help. If you repost it again, that won't help either. Perhaps you could rephrase what you are trying to get at.

MM: I did rephrase it. What don’t you understand? Does God wink at the specific types of sinful behaviors in the specific types of people I’ve described?

1. In cases involving these specific types of people, does God wink at sinful behaviors which offend people, which cause them to conclude Christianity is a joke, which cause them to despise the Gospel? If so, why?

2. In cases involving these specific types of people, are they ignorant of the fact that their behavior offends people around them, that it causes them to conclude Christianity is a joke, that it causes them to despise the Gospel? If so, why?

TE: Regarding the fact that Jones and Waggoner brought us truth that she did not bring, she wrote that they brought light that we would not otherwise have had unless God had sent someone else to bring that light.

MM: You’ll have to do better than that, Tom.

I need specific examples where J&W wrote something needful to us today that does not appear anywhere in the SOP. I am very confident I can find anything pertinent for me today in J&W in the SOP.

This message has not had the influence that it should have had upon the mind and heart of the believers. The true state of the church is to be presented before men, and they are to receive the word of God not as something originating with men, but as the word of God. Many have treated the message to the Laodiceans as it has come to them, as the word of man. Both message and messenger have been held in doubt by those who should have been the first to discern and act upon it as the word of God. Had they received the word of God sent to them, they would not now be in darkness. (1888 Mat. 1051)

The time of test is just upon us, for the loud cry of the third angel has already begun in the revelation of the righteousness of Christ, the sin-pardoning Redeemer. This is the beginning of the light of the angel whose glory shall fill the whole earth.(1SM 362)

Sister White says that we have been in the time of the latter rain since the Minneapolis meeting.

Can every believer have grace enough to keep him free from sinning? Yes. Indeed, everybody in the world can have enough to keep him from sinning. Enough is given, and it is given for this purpose. If anyone does not have it, it is not because enough has not been given, but because he does not take that which has been given. For "unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ." Eph. 4:7. The measure of the gift of Christ is Himself wholly, and that is the meas ure of "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." To the fullness of the Godhead there is, indeed, no measure; it is boundless. It is simply the infinity of God. Yet that is the only measure of the grace that is given to every one of us. The boundless m easure of the fullness of the Godhead is the only thing that can express the proportion of grace that is given to every one who is in this world. For "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." This grace is given in order that "as sin hath reigne d unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord," and in order that sin shall not have dominion over you, because you are under grace.

It is given also "for the perfecting of the saints." The object of it is to bring each one to perfection in Christ Jesus--to the perfection too, that is fully up to God's standard, for it is given for the building up of the body of Christ, "till we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." It is given to "every one of us," "till we all come" to perfection, even by the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Again, this grace is given to every one where sin abounds and it brings salvation to every one to whom it is given. Bringing salvation in itself, the measure of the salvation which it brings to every one is only the measure of its own fullness, which is nothing less than the measure of the fullness of the Godhead.

As boundless grace is given to every one bringing salvation to the extent of its own full measure, then if any one does not have boundless salvation, why is it? Plainly it can be only because he will not take that which is given.

As boundless grace is given to every one in order that it shall reign in him against all the power of sin, as certainly as ever sin reigned and in order that sin shall not have dominion, then if sin still reigns in anyone, if sin yet has dominion over anyone, where lies the fault? Clearly, it lies only in this, that he will not allow the grace to do for him and in him that which it is given to do. By unbelief he frustrates the grace of God. So far as he is concerned, the grace has been given in vain.

But every believer, by his very profession, says that he has received the grace of God. Then if in the believer grace does not reign instead of sin, if grace does not have dominion instead of sin, it is plain enough that he is receiving the grace of God in vain. If grace is not bringing the believer onward toward a perfect man in the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, then he is receiving the grace of God in vain. Therefore the exhortation of the Scripture is, "We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain." 2 Cor. 6:1.

The grace of God is fully able to accomplish that for which it is given, if only it is allowed to work. We have seen that grace being altogether from God, the power of grace is nothing but the power of God. It is plain enough therefore that the power of God is abundantly able to accomplish all for which it is given--the salvation of the soul, deliverance from sin and from the power of it, the reign of righteousness in the life, and the perfecting of the believer unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ--if only it can have place in the heart and in the life to work according to the will of God. But the power of God is "unto salvation to every one that believeth." Unbelief frustrates the grace of god. Many believe and receive the grace of God for the salvation from sins that are past but are content with that and do not give it the same place in the soul to reign against the power of sin, that they did to save from sins of the past. This, too, is but another phase of unbelief. So as to the one great final object of grace--the perfection of the life in the likeness of Christ-- they do practically receive the grace of God in vain.

"We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) Giving no offense in anything, that the ministry be not blamed." Nor does this word "ministry" refer simply to the ordained ministry of the pulpit. It includes every one who receives the grace of God or that has named the name of Christ. For "as every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." Therefore he does not want anyone to receive the grace of God in vain, lest that grace and its blessed working be misrepresented to the world and so men be further hindered from yielding to it. He does not want His grace to be received in vain, because when it is, offense is given in many things, and the ministry of grace itself is blamed. Yet when the grace of God is not received in vain but is given the place that belongs to it, "no offense" will be given "in anything," and the ministry will not only be not blamed but will be blest.

And now to show how complete and all-pervading the reign of grace will be in the life where it is not received in vain, the Lord has set down the following list, embracing "all thing," and in which we shall approve ourselves unto God. Read it carefully:

In all things approving ourselves unto God,
In much patience,
In afflictions,
In necessities,
In distresses,
In stripes,
In imprisonments,
In tumults,
In labors,
In watchings,
In fastings;
By pureness,
By knowledge,
By longsuffering,
By kindness,
By the Holy Ghost,
By love unfeigned,
By the word of truth,
By the power of God,
By the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
By honor and dishonor,
By evil report and good report;
As deceivers, and yet true;
As unknown, and yet well known;
As dying, and, behold, we live;
As chastened, and not killed;
As sorrowful, yet always rejoicing;
As poor, yet making many rich;
As having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

This list covers all the experiences that can ever enter into the life of any believer in this world. It shows that where the grace of God is not received in vain, that grace will so take possession and control of the life, that every experience that enters into the life will be taken by grace and turned to making us approved unto God and building us up in perfection unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. "We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain." (RH Sept. 22, 1896)

TE: You have a theory that the last 6 commandments cannot be broken in ignorance. Polygamy disproves your theory, right? If not, why not?

MM: The fact God winked at the sin of polygamy in the past is relevant. I'm not as ready as you seem to be to dismiss it. I also believe polygamy violates the law. But I am not as sure as you are that it violates one of the last 6 commandments. I am convinced it violates one of the first 4 commandments. Otherwise, it would have been obvious to giants of faith and righteousness like Abraham and Jacob and David. They would have shunned it.

But I am not as sure as you are that it violates one of the last 6 commandments. I am convinced it violates one of the first 4 commandments.

MM: True, it hadn't been publicly published at the time; but she certainly articulated it publicly afterwards.

Which is what we have available today. So, you still haven't proved to me J&W published truths I need to know today that I cannot find in the SOP.

1. In cases involving these specific types of people, does God wink at sinful behaviors which offend people, which cause them to conclude Christianity is a joke, which cause them to despise the Gospel? If so, why?

2. In cases involving these specific types of people, are they ignorant of the fact that their behavior offends people around them, that it causes them to conclude Christianity is a joke, that it causes them to despise the Gospel? If so, why?

TE: This looks like you're just reasoning in a circle. You have a theory, that the last 6 commandments can't be broken in ignorance, and when confronted with incontrovertible evidence that your theory is wrong ...

MM: It is incontrovertible to you, but not to me. You still haven't quoted an inspired statement that confirms your view. Have you given up?

TE: Years after 1888, she still said that Waggoner taught it more clearly than she.

MM: More clearly to who?

You? Yes. Me? No. The way she describes it in SC makes more sense to me. And, yes, I have read much of what J&W wrote, but I prefer the way it is presented in the SOP.

MM: So, you still haven't proved to me J&W published truths I need to know today that I cannot find in the SOP.

TE: I did prove it.

MM: No you haven't. You cannot name one point they made that cannot be found in the SOP.

TE: Here's additional evidence that she was correct that Waggoner taught rbf more clearly than she. Consider Christ's human nature. There are people who read the SOP and think that Christ took the unfallen nature of Adam. Nobody reads Waggoner and thinks that.

MM: Peter said something similar about Paul's epistles. That is, people twisted his writings to serve sin. They also twisted the meaning of Jesus' words. This doesn't prove a thing. Jesus said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

Do we need J&W in order to correctly interpret the SOP? God forbid!

TE: Not everyone responds to truth immediately.

MM: I know of very few people, you probably being the only one, who believe J&W are easier to understand than the SOP.

TE: If Paul had written, "where sin abounds, Christ does much more abound", then Jones' message probably would have fallen along the lines you suggest.

MM: I'm sure this is true.

TE: That polygamy is sin? No, I already presented that several times now.

MM: Look again. That's not what I was talking about.

TE: Than "she." The "she" was herself. In her quote she said than "I".

MM: Are saying she believed J&W understood it better than she did?

TE: You're doing a bait and switch here.

MM: All along I've been asking to prove J&W presented truths we need today that cannot be found in the SOP today.

TE: Regarding a point that they made being found in the SOP, how about the point that the OC was not authored by God.

MM: On the contrary, Tom. The she never endorsed this point in her writings is evidence against it.

As you know, others besides myself on MSDAOL have provided evidence to the contrary, that is, she believed God established the OC to help the COI to appreciate the NC.

MM: Do we need J&W in order to correctly interpret the SOP? God forbid!

TE: Well, Rosangela is one who believes this way. Do you think it's right and fair to characterize her as "twisting" Ellen White's writings?

MM: You're missing the mark here, Tom. Stay on topic. Thank you. Again, as you see it, do we need J&W in order to correctly interpret the SOP?

TE: Here's additional evidence that she was correct that Waggoner taught rbf more clearly than she. Consider Christ's human nature. There are people who read the SOP and think that Christ took the unfallen nature of Adam. Nobody reads Waggoner and thinks that.

MM: Peter said something similar about Paul's epistles. That is, people twisted his writings to serve sin. They also twisted the meaning of Jesus' words. This doesn't prove a thing. Jesus said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

TE: Well, Rosangela is one who believes this way. Do you think it's right and fair to characterize her as "twisting" Ellen White's writings?

TE: She didn't say that they (actually Waggoner) was easier to understand than she, but that he taught rbf more clearly than she.

MM: Nothing teaches RBF more clearly to me than SC.

If she felt that way about J&W, why didn't she co-author a book with them?

Or, why didn't she quote them extensively in one her publicly published books? Or, why didn't she borrow their ideas and publish them?

TE: Well, it's hard to find fault with Jones because he followed Paul's lead.

MM: I wonder if Paul had written as prolifically as J&W if he would have used the word "grace" more often than the word "Jesus"?

TE: You have a theory that the last 6 commandments cannot be broken in ignorance. Polygamy disproves your theory, right? If not, why not?

MM: The fact God winked at the sin of polygamy in the past is relevant. I'm not as ready as you seem to be to dismiss it. I also believe polygamy violates the law. But I am not as sure as you are that it violates one of the last 6 commandments. I am convinced it violates one of the first 4 commandments. Otherwise, it would have been obvious to giants of faith and righteousness like Abraham and Jacob and David. They would have shunned it.

TE: This looks like you're just reasoning in a circle. You have a theory, that the last 6 commandments can't be broken in ignorance, and when confronted with incontrovertible evidence that your theory is wrong, rather than modifying your theory, you write the following: "But I am not as sure as you are that it violates one of the last 6 commandments. I am convinced it violates one of the first 4 commandments." See if you can find anyone in the world (that's not related to you) that agrees with this.

MM: It is incontrovertible to you, but not to me. You still haven't quoted an inspired statement that confirms your view. Have you given up?

TE: That polygamy is sin? No, I already presented that several times now.

MM: Look again. That's not what I was talking about.

TE: I looked. You weren't specific.

TE: Than "she." The "she" was herself. In her quote she said than "I".

MM: Are you saying she believed J&W understood it better than she did?

TE: She said, "E.J. Waggoner can teach righteousness by faith more clearly than I can."

TE: You're doing a bait and switch here.

MM: All along I've been asking you to prove J&W presented truths we need today that cannot be found in the SOP today.

TE: I did that. I mentioned that EGW said that J&W brought light that we would not have had unless God had sent someone else to bring that light to us.

TE: Regarding a point that they made being found in the SOP, how about the point that the OC was not authored by God.

MM: On the contrary, Tom. That she never endorsed this point in her writings is evidence against it.

TE: You asked for a point that they made which is not found in the SOP. You're switching tracks again. You question didn't say anything about something being endorsed.

MM: As you know, others besides myself on MSDAOL have provided evidence to the contrary, that is, she believed God established the OC to help the COI to appreciate the NC.

TE: You asked for a point that they presented that she didn't. So I'm suggesting that the OC was not initiated by God is such a point. Do you agree with this, or disagree? That is, did EGW present this point or not? If you say she didn't, which you must, then you have what you asked for; a point that they presented that she didn't.

MM: Do we need J&W in order to correctly interpret the SOP? God forbid!

TE: Well, Rosangela is one who believes this way. Do you think it's right and fair to characterize her as "twisting" Ellen White's writings?

MM: You're missing the mark here, Tom. Stay on topic. Thank you. Again, as you see it, do we need J&W in order to correctly interpret the SOP?

TE: MM, I wrote this:



You responded:



To this, my response to you is:



I didn't respond to your question as to whether we need J&W's writings to interpret the SOP, which is obviously rhetorical.

TE: She didn't say that they (actually Waggoner) was easier to understand than she, but that he taught rbf more clearly than she.

MM: Nothing teaches RBF more clearly to me than SC.

TE: Ok, then you disagree with her. That's fine.

MM: If she felt that way about J&W, why didn't she co-author a book with them?

TE: If she felt that they taught rbf more clearly than she, why would she want to co-author a book with them? She did her job, which was to identify that God was communicating a message through them, and urging people to heed that message.

MM: Or, why didn't she quote them extensively in one her publicly published books? Or, why didn't she borrow their ideas and publish them?

TE: Regarding why she didn't quote them, why should she? Can you think of any SDA's that she quoted? She didn't quote them for the same reason that they didn't quote her. There was no need. They were both getting their message from God.

Regarding her borrowing their ideas, she did so, a lot, which you should know, since you claim to have read a lot of J&W.

TE: Well, it's hard to find fault with Jones because he followed Paul's lead.

MM: I wonder if Paul had written as prolifically as J&W if he would have used the word "grace" more often than the word "Jesus"?

TE: Paul wrote very prolifically. Only a portion of what Paul wrote has been preserved. However, I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Teach, not understand. Okay. But this isn't true for me. He isn't nearly as easy to understand as she is.

By "rhetorical" I take it you agree with me - We do not need J&W to interpret the SOP. Do you also agree everything we need to know about RBF, everything J&W taught about it that is correct, is available to us in the SOP?

That doesn't apply to me today. That light is now available in the SOP. So, you haven't proven I cannot find it in the SOP, that I can only find it in J&W. Do you see my point?

Do you find it strange that I am looking for an example that includes a point she endorsed?

I know that J&W believed many things she didn't endorse, things that she clearly did not believe, things she plainly condemned.

"... they presented [a point] that she didn't." That is the point, Tom.

In fact, the evidence is clear that not only did she not present it, she presented the exact opposite point.

By "rhetorical" I take it you agree with me - We do not need J&W to interpret the SOP. Do you also agree everything we need to know about RBF, everything J&W taught about it that is correct, is available to us in the SOP?

TE: Here's additional evidence that she was correct that Waggoner taught rbf more clearly than she. Consider Christ's human nature. There are people who read the SOP and think that Christ took the unfallen nature of Adam. Nobody reads Waggoner and thinks that.

MM: Peter said something similar about Paul's epistles. That is, people twisted his writings to serve sin. They also twisted the meaning of Jesus' words. This doesn't prove a thing. Jesus said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

TE: Well, Rosangela is one who believes this way. Do you think it's right and fair to characterize her as "twisting" Ellen White's writings?

MM: Nothing teaches RBF more clearly to me than SC.

TE: Ok, then you disagree with her. That's fine.

No, I'm not disagreeing with her.

Sister White quoted Smith, Haskel, and Andrews. Also, she didn't actually borrow ideas from J&W. She got them from the same biblical source. She wrote about them before J&W did.

Why use the word "grace" when you can say "Jesus" instead?

For example, why say we need "grace" in our hearts when you can say we need "Jesus" in our hearts? Why say "grace" empowers us to obey when you can say "Jesus" empowers us to obey? Et cetera.

By the way, what about the law that required a brother to marry his brother's widow? It leads to polygamy, right?

God has not sanctioned polygamy in a single instance. (1SP 94)

Have you read her endorsements of their message? Did you know she endorsed their message over 1,000 times? If what you asserted were true, there's simply no way she could have written what she did regarding their message.

Likewise, is it not so that we do not need Ellen to interpret the bible? That everything Ellen taught about it that is correct is available to us in the bible?

True. Nevertheless, Jesus thought it was necessary to give us the spirit of prophecy through Ellen White. There must have been a need, otherwise, He would not have bothered, right?

MM: That may be one of the reasons why I find J&W hard to understand - they used too many words to establish the point. The beautiful thing about the SOP is that Jesus can convey the same thought in fewer words. The Bible was written that way, too.

Let the reader pay particular attention to the fact that there is in this epistle no controversy over the law, as to whether or not it should be obeyed. No one had claimed that the law was abolished, or changed, or had lost its force. The epistle contains no hint of any such thing. The question was not if the law should be kept, but how it was to be kept.

Justification--being made righteous--was admitted to be a necessity; the question was, Is it by faith, or by works? The false brethren were persuading the Galatians that they must be made righteous by their own efforts; Paul was by the Spirit showing that all such attempts were useless, and could result only in fastening more firmly the curse upon the sinner.

Righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ is set forth to all men in all time as the only real righteousness. The false teachers made their boast in the law, but through breaking it caused the name of God to be blasphemed. Paul made his boast in Christ, and by the righteousness of the law, to which he thus submitted, caused the name of God to be glorified in him. (http://www.brooklawn.org/Books/GladTidings/GT04RedeemedfromtheCurse.htm)

I have had the question asked, "What do you think of this light that these men are presenting? Why, I have been presenting it to you for the last 45 years--the matchless charms of Christ. This is what I have been trying to present before your minds. When Brother Waggoner brought out these ideas in Minneapolis, it was the first clear teaching on this subject from any human lips I had heard, excepting the conversations between myself and my husband. I have said to myself, It is because God has presented it to me in vision that I see it so clearly, and they cannot see it because they have never had it presented to them as I have. And when another presented it, every fiber of my heart said, Amen. (1888 Mat. 348)

Tom, I agree that J&W shared important truths. But I prefer to read those same truths in the SOP. Enough said.

Show me in the Bible one place where God condemns polygamy.

Again, what about the law that required a brother to marry his brother's widow? It leads to polygamy, right?

We've deviated a long ways from my original questions - Does God wink at sinful behaviors (in the specific people I dscribed) that offend ordinary people, that cause them to conclude Christianity is a joke, that cause them to despise the Gospel?

And when Tom says the same thing about J&W?

There is no evidence J&W had the spirit of prophecy. I doubt Tom claims J&W had the spirit of prophecy like Ellen White did, or like Moses, David, Peter, or John did.

Yes, the Lord has given him special light on that question. I have been wanting to bring it out more clearly, but I could not have brought it out as clearly as he did. But when he brought it out at Minneapolis, I recognized it.

Tom, you've presented polygamy as proof people can ignorantly violate the 7th commandment. You also seem to think it disproves what I've been saying about ignorance and the last 6 commandments. I agree polygamy violates the law of God. But you have yet to prove which commandment is violated. You assume it is the 7th. Where is the proof?

Again, what about the law that required a brother to marry his brother's widow? It led to polygamy, right? Is it considered "polygamy" when God ordains it? Likewise, was it considered "incest" when Adam's kids married each other?

There is no evidence J&W had the spirit of prophecy. I doubt Tom claims J&W had the spirit of prophecy like Ellen White did, or like Moses, David, Peter, or John did.

I guess that would bring it back a full circle to the question, what is the Spirit of prophecy.

Tom, I am reposting the following question because you haven't answered it yet. What you posted above is not an answer.

1. Again, what about the law that required a brother to marry his brother's widow?

2. It led to polygamy, right?

3. Is it considered "polygamy" when God ordains it?

4. Likewise, was it considered "incest" when Adam's kids married each other?

And again you have failed to answer to the questions. Or, are you refusing to answer them? If so, no problem. You are entitled. But it would be nice if you answered them.

Are there times when Jesus doesn't consider it polygamy, times when He doesn't consider it incest? Are there times when permitting polygamy isn't sanctioning polygamy?

Can we become perfect, without sin, in this life? If you say, yes, then you have to believe that either you, or some folks among us, have actually become perfect.

Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. (COL 69)

Can we become perfect, without sin, in this life? If you say, yes, then you have to believe that either you, or some folks among us, have actually become perfect.

Does that just mean the major Ten Commandments or the "little" personality faults and foibles like being sloppy, or exacting, or haughty, or stingey, etc.

All this about it being possible to become perfect is rather nonsensical in any practical way if indeed no one becomes it.

So, my question precludes that some (at least 144000) will make it to literal perfection: not just a perfect relationship, but absolute perfection in acts and thoughts. I just have some trouble aligning that with what is seen in real life. I know I'm not perfect but I deeply, sincerely have a partnership with God in my character development.

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Is smoking or drinking a sin? If yes and you do it without feeling guilty then Id say that was a sin that God winks at today.

I pointed out to you that EGW said that polygamy was not sanctioned by God even once. Why are you not understanding that this answers your question? If she's correct on this, then obviously polygamy is not something which God ordained.



Polygamy, like any sin, is considered differently if it is done in ignorance or not. Polygamy is never considered incest. Permitting polygamy does not mean the same thing as sanctioning it. Permitting it is what God did in the OT. Not sanctioning it was what He did in the OT and now as well.

He permitted it by winking at it. Sanctioning it would mean approving of it.

Is smoking or drinking a sin? If yes and you do it without feeling guilty then Id say that was a sin that God winks at today.

Can we become perfect, without sin, in this life? If you say, yes, then you have to believe that either you, or some folks among us, have actually become perfect. That would be quite a pronouncement indeed..."Hey, everybody, I have overcome every sin and am now perfect in the eyes of God!" Do any of you know, or ever have met, anyone who has actually become perfect? Do you live close enough to him/her to know that for certain? So, the next question is, What is perfection? Does that just mean the major Ten Commandments or the "little" personality faults and foibles like being sloppy, or exacting, or haughty, or stingey, etc. If you really want to know whether or not someone is perfect, would be a good idea to ask the wife or the co-worker at the job.

If you really want to know whether or not someone is perfect, would be a good idea to ask the wife or the co-worker at the job.

Tom, can you name a sinful behavior Jesus winks at nowadays?

PS - We both agree polygamy isn't a sinful behavior Jesus winks at in cases involving properly prepared and baptized SDA church members, so, can we eliminate it as an example?

MM, there's a big difference between believing that perfection is possible, and believing that one is perfect.

Tom, I know what you mean. Knowing you are perfect and hoping you are perfect are worlds apart. John wrote, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." It is far better to know you are perfect than to go around wondering and doubting. Knowing is the stuff of faith; doubting is the stuff of disbelief. "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them."

SC 47, 48
Desires for goodness and holiness are right as far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. They do not come to the point of yielding the will to God. They do not now choose to be Christians. {SC 47.2}

Through the right exercise of the will, an entire change may be made in your life. By yielding up your will to Christ, you ally yourself with the power that is above all principalities and powers. You will have strength from above to hold you steadfast, and thus through constant surrender to God you will be enabled to live the new life, even the life of faith. {SC 48.1}

Tom, please read the quotes I posted above (addressed to Thomas). Notice how John uses the word "know". Born again believers, who are actively and aggressively walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, "know" they are being like Jesus. We call it the "blessed assurance".

Possibly it may be the case that one thinks one is perfect in Christ without actually being perfect in Christ.

The seriousness of imperfections has to do with the willingness to deal with them when the truth is pointed out by the Holy Spirit. Everyone has imperfections, but the true follower of Christ will respond to the Holy Spirit when these imperfections are pointed out.

Your subsequent response to Tom is similarly self-focused:


My "blessed assurance" is that Christ's grace is all-sufficient, not in my "actively and aggressively walking int he Spirit" and "knowing" I'm "being like Jesus."

IMO, as long as I'm focused on my state of perfection or lack of it, I'm exactly where Satan wants me -- with my focus on self rather than on Christ.

In reading further in the thread,I continue to see this focus on "my perfection," and I believe that focus in itself prevents the kind of growth in perfection God wants us to have.

Jesus focused on the Father and His work in this world.

If we wish to be His disciples, our focus must be the same -- off self and on Christ and His work. He'll take care of the "perfection," just as He promised to do.

As nearly as I can tell, västergötland are pretty much on the same page in several areas. And I agree with Arnold's statements too.

Even Tom falls into the trap when he writes:


If we are intent on following Christ in loving obedience, He will take care of our perfection! It is not to be our focus. He is to be our focus!

Your subsequent response to Tom is similarly self-focused:

Inga:Even Tom falls into the trap when he writes:

Tom:Possibly it may be the case that one thinks one is perfect in Christ without actually being perfect in Christ.

The seriousness of imperfections has to do with the willingness to deal with them when the truth is pointed out by the Holy Spirit. Everyone has imperfections, but the true follower of Christ will respond to the Holy Spirit when these imperfections are pointed out.

I don't think focusing solely or primarily on behavior is very beneficial. If one is totally off on one's view of what God is like, nice behavior won't avail. Consider the Pharisees.

I don't think the issue is as simple as you are laying out. I agree with your point that faith is key. Given that faith is key, and faith is our heart response to God's love, it seems to me that our understanding God and His love is what's important.

To know God is to love Him. As we come to understand His true character, we will reflect that character in our own lives. By beholding, we become changed.

"As we come to understand His true character, we will reflect that character in our own lives." Tom, this makes it sound like we gradually outgrow sinful behavior over the course of a lifetime of sinning less and less until we cease sinning.

From what you've posted here and there I am beginning to believe you think the Holy Spirit waits to reveal to us certain sinful behaviors until we are ready to crucify them, that we are blinded to them until the Holy Spirit makes us aware of them.

If this is truly what you believe, if I haven't misunderstood your belief, then surely there are inspired passages to support it, right? If so, then would you mind posting some of them?

Also, can you name some sinful behaviors a born again believer, who is abiding in Jesus, who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, can commit without realizing it misrepresents Jesus, without realizing it offends people around them, without realizing it causes people to conclude Christianity is a joke?

Okay, I'm seeing this about perfection in a way I havn't before. When God says we can become perfect (have no faults, sinful acts in our lives anymore, at all)

He is saying it is possible; but, in fact, no one has actually accomplished that up to this day except Christ. Is that the correct meaning? In other words, perfection is possible theoretically, but hasn't actually happened in anyone, so far. Is that right?

Jesus' imperative was, "Be ye perfect." He did not say, "Somebody can be perfect, but not you."

And as I pointed out, long before Christ, there were people whom God called perfect.

Now let's briefly consider a facet of perfection that is often discussed. We all feel the pull to walk in the flesh. The perfect person never walks in the flesh; he walks in the Spirit. Jesus came to free us from the yoke of bondage to which the flesh subjects us, and give us the liberty to freely follow Him wherever He goes. That is a promise we can all claim, if we really want it.

Jesus also did not say that this perfection was something that would be limited to some group 2000 years in the future as some people would have us believe revelation teaches in connection to the 144000.

I addressed your comments. I asked you why you came to the conclusions you did, based on what I said, and pointed out that I hadn't discussed anything about behavior.

My opinion is that we should be discussing and studying God's character, not trying to parse fine details about behavior.

TV: Jesus also did not say that this perfection was something that would be limited to some group 2000 years in the future as some people would have us believe revelation teaches in connection to the 144000.

MM: Amen! Does this mean that you believe being perfect by faith in Jesus (past sins forgiven) and through faith in Jesus (not sinning, growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit) has been available to everyone who abides in Jesus since the fall of A&E?

Tom, throughout this thread we have been discussing whether or not God winks at sinful behavior in born again people who are abiding in Jesus, who are obeying and observing everything Jesus taught and commanded. You cited polygamy as proof God winks at sinful behavior in born again believers. But we both agree God no longer winks at polygamy.

Even though you haven't provided a legitimate example, you still maintain the Holy Spirit waits to reveal certain offensive sinful behaviors in born again believers until He feels they are ready and willing to crucify them. In the meantime, their sinful behavior is causing people to conclude Christianity is a joke.

Now you want me to ignore your theory and just focus on God's character. But how can you truly expect me to follow your advice when it requires me to ignore a part of God's character that makes Him, according to you, wink at sinful behaviors in born again believers that cause people to conclude Christianity is a joke?

Whatever it is, though, do you think it has been available to mankind since the fall of A&E? That we can be like Jesus like Enoch was (who went to heaven without dying)?

TV: Yes, I think God has exactly one means of salvation for all ages.

MM: How does this play out in terms of perfection? What does sin and righteousness have to do with it?

What seems so insurmountable, God can unravel with His providence with miraculous ease at just the right time!

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48.

The word "therefore" implies a conclusion, an inference from what has gone before. Jesus has been describing to His hearers the unfailing mercy and love of God, and He bids them therefore to be perfect. Because your heavenly Father "is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil" (Luke 6:35), because He has stooped to lift you up, therefore, said Jesus, you may become like Him in character, and stand without fault in the presence of men and angels.

The conditions of eternal life, under grace, are just what they were in Eden--perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law. The standard of character presented in the Old Testament is the same that is presented in the New Testament. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain. In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.

With untold love our God has loved us, and our love awakens toward Him as we comprehend something of the length and breadth and depth and height of this love that passeth knowledge. By the revelation of the attractive loveliness of Christ, by the knowledge of His love expressed to us while we were yet sinners, the stubborn heart is melted and subdued, and the sinner is transformed and becomes a child of heaven. God does not employ compulsory measures; love is the agent which He uses to expel sin from the heart. By it He changes pride into humility, and enmity and unbelief into love and faith.

The Jews had been wearily toiling to reach perfection by their own efforts, and they had failed. Christ had already told them that their righteousness could never enter the kingdom of heaven. Now He points out to them the character of the righteousness that all who enter heaven will possess. Throughout the Sermon on the Mount He describes its fruits, and now in one sentence He points out its source and its nature: Be perfect as God is perfect. The law is but a transcript of the character of God. Behold in your heavenly Father a perfect manifestation of the principles which are the foundation of His government.

God is love. Like rays of light from the sun, love and light and joy flow out from Him to all His creatures. It is His nature to give. His very life is the outflow of unselfish love.

"His glory is His children's good;
His joy, His tender Fatherhood."
He tells us to be perfect as He is, in the same manner. We are to be centers of light and blessing to our little circle, even as He is to the universe. We have nothing of ourselves, but the light of His love shines upon us, and we are to reflect its brightness. "In His borrowed goodness good," we may be perfect in our sphere, even as God is perfect in His.

Jesus said, Be perfect as your Father is perfect. If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God. In Christ dwells "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9); and the life of Jesus is made manifest "in our mortal flesh" (2 Corinthians 4:11). That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. Thus you will be in harmony with every precept of His law; for "the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul." Psalm 19:7, margin. Through love "the righteousness of the law" will be "fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4.

If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him.

While I was the prodigal daughter I started living with a man I love dearly and we had been together 16 years when I returned to the Adventist faith of my youth. I started going to a small, close-knit, loving SDA church. Quite a dilemma! Though my "boyfriend" wasn't SDA, he was a good man, and I knew God cared about his soul, too. I first made rationalizations, but never felt settled by them. It got so this issue came up to my face every time I prayed. The pastor was anxious for us, but wasn't pushy. I was afraid to ask my friend to marry....don't know why but just seemed impossible to bring it up. Anyway, it got to be such a crisis within me I surrendered it to the Holy Spirit, cried bitter tears of frustration, admitting how impossible it seemed to resolved this. I reached the place where I could admit to God that it was wrong for us to live together out of wedlock, but also imploring His help. As it turned out, I invited the pastor over to see a mural I was doing for the church, and he took the occasion to bring up the topic of marriage while we were all together. The pastor was very skillful in how he brought this up to my boyfriend. As it turned out, my boyfriend had wanted to get married all this time, but was afraid to ask me. From that meeting, we both agreed we wanted to get married, and proceeded to do so that coming week! What I'm trying to say is how the converted person may have some extremely difficult issues in his life to overcome, that he got into long before commitment to the new way of life. He may not be able to change it suddenly, given the complexity of the personalities concerned whose souls are as important as his. Indeed, the law of God is simple black and white, but the tangles people get into over the law can be like Gordian knots. But whenever a person is converted and close to the Lord, his privilege is to surrender to Jesus, confess his helplessness to do right by his own effort, and look for any way to comply as best he can. God will find a way for the honest supplicant. What seems so insurmountable, God can unravel with His providence with miraculous ease at just the right time!

MM, you asked me:

"Now you want me to ignore your theory and just focus on God's character. But how can you truly expect me to follow your advice when it requires me to ignore a part of God's character that makes Him, according to you, wink at sinful behaviors in born again believers that cause people to conclude Christianity is a joke?"

I've never suggested that God winks at sinful behaviors in born again believers that cause people to conclude Christianity is a joke. To attribute this as a "theory" of mine is just wrong.

MM, you asked me what I believe. My favorite EGW perfection quote is the following:



This section is from "Thoughts on the Mount of Blessing." I think it's a beautifully balanced quotes, and brings to the forefront the important points. In particular, she defines perfection as being like Jesus, which is great. She also points out the God will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace, which is phenomenal!

Just as all will come to Christ in the first place, if they do not resist his drawing love, so will God perfect all those who do not resist Him.

She also points out that perfection comes as a result of the heart being melted and subdued by the love of God.

This is all wonderful stuff!

MM: Now you want me to ignore your theory and just focus on God's character. But how can you truly expect me to follow your advice when it requires me to ignore a part of God's character that makes Him, according to you, wink at sinful behaviors in born again believers that cause people to conclude Christianity is a joke?"

TE: I've never suggested that God winks at sinful behaviors in born again believers that cause people to conclude Christianity is a joke. To attribute this as a "theory" of mine is just wrong.

Tom, I totally agree. Her description of abiding in Jesus is awesome and awe inspiring. But I'm surprised at your reaction to what I posted below:

TV: That which saved a crucified robber with mere hours to live is the same which saved a man who walked with God for hundreds of years and never tasted death (as far as we know).

MM: Do you doubt Enoch is in heaven?

TV: The same brought David home even though he was not perfect enough to build the temple of the Lord and Peter though he had cowardly thrice renounced the Lord.

MM: Imperfection had nothing to do with God not allowing David to build the temple.

TV: I heard it preached that what God is looking for is a people who like Job can take whatever comes ones way and bless the Lord despite. This means that Jesus would come to show us that God is worthy of such unfailing trust.

MM: Amen!

TV: What does sin have to do with it? Sin and death meet their match and lost already.

MM: Sin and death have lost already? In what way? People are still sinning and dying.

TV: What does righteousness have to do with it? We are righteous in and through Him by whom sin and death was destroyed.

MM: To what degree are people righteous in and through Jesus? Do people still sin and repent?

TV: So where comes perfection such as you are thinking of it?

MM: I agree with the texts you posted. I suspect, though, that not everybody agrees on what it says and means. I'm not sure if you and I feel the same way about what they say and mean.

TV: We may walk the path down to our goal as did Enoch or we may only have time to take our very first step, but as the promise always comes before the law, ours is not to worry about how far anyone else gets down the path but to step out in faith believing the promise.

MM: What is the promise? What does it say about us and perfection and salvation?

TE: You shouldn't be surprised. When you make caricatures of people's positions, you shouldn't be surprised that they don't ascribe to such.

MM: Tom, we have been studying together for years, and I distinctly recall you saying the Holy Spirit waits to reveal certain sinful behaviors to born again believers. You reasoned it is because He is too kind to reveal more than people are ready to know about themselves. But you have yet to provide a legitimate example of such a sin, which leads me to doubt your theory.

So, again, what do you believe about it? Does the Holy Spirit ever wink at certain offensive sinful behaviors in born again believers until He decides the time right to reveal it to them? If so, what is an example of such sinful behavior?

"Behold," says the Scripture, "the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people; but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and His glory shall be seen upon thee." Isa. 60:2.

It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth...

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)

MM: Imperfection had nothing to do with God not allowing David to build the temple.

TV: David himself claimed it was because of the blood he had shed and the wars he had fought. 1 cron 22

MM: Sin and death have lost already? In what way? People are still sinning and dying.

TV: Did Jesus not defeat sin on the cross and death in His resurrection?

TV: What does righteousness have to do with it? We are righteous in and through Him by whom sin and death was destroyed.

MM: To what degree are people righteous in and through Jesus? Do people still sin and repent?

TV: For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
22WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;
23and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

TV: We may walk the path down to our goal as did Enoch or we may only have time to take our very first step, but as the promise always comes before the law, ours is not to worry about how far anyone else gets down the path but to step out in faith believing the promise.

MM: What is the promise? What does it say about us and perfection and salvation?

TV: God made promises about blessings and a son to Abraham and Abraham believed God. Therefore God regarded Abraham as righteous. This son that was promised to Abraham is Jesus we learn in Galatian. These promises are offered to us aswell and our part is to believe God.

TE: I've never suggested that the Holy Spirit winks at sinful behavior that makes Christianity a joke to those who observe it.

MM: This may explain why we have been speaking past each other. This is the only thing I have been asking about. Your comment above seems to indicate you believe the Holy Spirit does not wink at the types of offensive sinful behaviors in born again believers that cause people around them to despise the Gospel. Am I hearing you right?

TE: It seems to me you are suggesting that once one is born again, one's behavior is all of a sudden perfect, that there is no learning that goes on. This seems neither Scriptural, nor in line with reality.

MM: What do you mean by "perfect"?

Does it include not behaving in a way that causes people to conclude Christianity is a joke?

Which behaviors belong in this category?

What do you mean by "learning"?

Does it include gradually outgrowing sinful behaviors that cause people to conclude Christianity is a joke? Which behaviors belong in this category?

I realize you feel we shouldn't focus on sinful behaviors, but it's important to me to understand it properly.

Jesus said, By their fruits ye shall them. People watch us and form opinions about Jesus.

The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts us of sin and of righteousness. In the past you've explained to me how the Holy Spirit waits after we are born again to reveal certain sinful behaviors to us until we are ready to confront, to confess, and to crucify them.

First you named polygamy as an example of a category of sinful behavior the Holy Spirit waits to reveal.

Then you named bad breath from not brushing teeth as another category.

You've also named believing in eternal torment in hell.

But I'm still not clear what to believe about it.

What does it mean - Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not. Does it mean they stop committing some sins but they still commit others? If so, what is an example of a sin they might continue to commit after they are born again? Do they commit this sin without realizing it? If so, why aren't they aware of the fact they are sinning?

What makes you think this is an imperfection?

Apparently not; people are still sinning and dying.

By quoting these two passages do you mean to answer my question with a No? That is, in and through Jesus they are righteous, they do not sin and repent?

Are you saying if we believe God promised Abraham that Jesus would be his son that we are perfect and saved?

MM: Imperfection had nothing to do with God not allowing David to build the temple.

TV: David himself claimed it was because of the blood he had shed and the wars he had fought. 1 cron 22

MM: What makes you think this is an imperfection?

TV: David wants to build God a temple. God decides David is not fit for the job. David later says that it was because of his many wars. What other word would you use to describe the event?

MM: Sin and death have lost already? In what way? People are still sinning and dying.

TV: Did Jesus not defeat sin on the cross and death in His resurrection?

MM: Apparently not; people are still sinning and dying.

TV: So since nothing recogniseable appeared to have happened, the cross was an non-event? How much more would this speak about 1844? Truly nothing appareant happened there.

TV: What does righteousness have to do with it? We are righteous in and through Him by whom sin and death was destroyed.

MM: To what degree are people righteous in and through Jesus? Do people still sin and repent?

TV: For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
22WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;
23and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

MM: By quoting these two passages do you mean to answer my question with a No? That is, in and through Jesus they are righteous, they do not sin and repent?

TV: I think we are agreed that sinning is not in God's plan for any human. Yet we both also know that sinning is in the experience of all humans. We get righteousness through Jesus because that is the only source of righteousness we have. Selfrighteousness deserves its ill repute. Being granted Jesus righteousness also leads to beholding Him and thus being changed into His image. Wether that also leads to a life without sin I do not know, I have never seen or experienced such a thing.

TV: We may walk the path down to our goal as did Enoch or we may only have time to take our very first step, but as the promise always comes before the law, ours is not to worry about how far anyone else gets down the path but to step out in faith believing the promise.

MM: What is the promise? What does it say about us and perfection and salvation?

TV: God made promises about blessings and a son to Abraham and Abraham believed God. Therefore God regarded Abraham as righteous. This son that was promised to Abraham is Jesus we learn in Galatian. These promises are offered to us aswell and our part is to believe God.

MM: Are you saying if we believe God promised Abraham that Jesus would be his son that we are perfect and saved?

TV: I am saying that if we do as Abraham did and believe God's promises to us, we are saved. What more is required of us?

God commanded David to fight and defeat his enemies. In so doing, he honored and gloried God. There was nothing sinful or defective or imperfect about David killing people in battle. "The battle belongs to the Lord." True, he was not allowed to build the temple because his hands were stained with the blood of war, but it wasn't because his heart or character was stained with sin.

Neither Jesus' death on the cross nor His moving into the most holy place in 1844 prevents people from sinning and dying. This is painfully apparent. Nevertheless, on the cross Jesus earned the right to own our sin and second death. At the end of time He will eliminate sin and death in the lake of fire.

If Jesus cannot empower people to cease sinning, to mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit - wouldn't that mean Satan is right about the law of God? If Satan is right, if obeying the law is not possible, why did Jesus have to suffer and die on the cross?

What is God promising us? What are we required to believe?

MM: God commanded David to fight and defeat his enemies. In so doing, he honored and gloried God. There was nothing sinful or defective or imperfect about David killing people in battle. "The battle belongs to the Lord." True, he was not allowed to build the temple because his hands were stained with the blood of war, but it wasn't because his heart or character was stained with sin.

TV: Not even when he used a war to depose an old friend who had the bad luck of being the husband of the kings mistress?

MM: Neither Jesus' death on the cross nor His moving into the most holy place in 1844 prevents people from sinning and dying. This is painfully apparent. Nevertheless, on the cross Jesus earned the right to own our sin and second death. At the end of time He will eliminate sin and death in the lake of fire.

TV: So are you saying that after the final judgment when God has shown that people can be trusted to choose Him rather than sin by their on free choise, that God will then continue to remove the further possibility of choise by making sin impossible? The cross was the decisive victory. All battles since then have not had the option of chainging the outcome of the war.

MM: If Jesus cannot empower people to cease sinning, to mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit - wouldn't that mean Satan is right about the law of God? If Satan is right, if obeying the law is not possible, why did Jesus have to suffer and die on the cross?

TV: I think the bottom line here is, what is the controversy about. Is satans accusation that the law cannot be kept or is it that God is not who He says He is? In the lists of heroes of faith we find in the scriptures, how did the individuals overcome? By keeping the law or by trusting in God.

Common on, Thomas. You're ignoring the point. Do you agree with what I posted above?

No, I'm not saying God will eliminate free will when He eliminates our sins and second death in the lake of fire. Do you agree with what I posted above?

Satan's accusations mean God is not trustworthy because He insists we obey a law that cannot be obeyed perfectly. To trust God is to obey His law. Do you think Jesus can empower people to obey the law perfectly?

TV: What you wrote goes beyond scripture.

MM: How so?

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TV: Yes and no. While sin and death will be finally eliminated at the end of this age, I still maintain that both were defeated 2000 years ago. As Paul wrote:

MM: Isn't Paul talking about the day Jesus returns? Also, in what way did Jesus defeat sin and death on the cross?

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TV: Do you or do you know anyone or have you heard about anyone other than Jesus who has ever obeyed the law perfectly? Read the eleventh chapter of Hebrews. What characterises all of these people who appears in the annals? Was it the perfect keeping of the law which let Rahab and Samson join Moses and Abraham in the same list?

MM: Being perfect (not committing known sins and maturing the fruits of the Spirit) is conditional, right? People are perfect if and when they are abiding in Jesus. If and when they are not abiding in Jesus they are not perfect. At least that's how John and Paul and Peter describe it.

So, yes, there are plenty of people who are perfect, but only while they are abiding in Jesus. Will it be obvious to us that they are abiding in Jesus, that are experiencing perfection? Not always. Jesus went mostly unnoticed the first 30 years of His life. Yes, there were people who realized He was righteous and blameless, but most people paid no attention.

TV: When Jesus rose from death He demonstrated that He had defeated it, and by defeating death He must also have defeated sin. One can also see that Jesus brought all sin with Him upon the cross. So considering that your and mine sins are crucified, how are they not defeated?

MM: If our sins were crucified with Jesus on the cross, why, then, do we continue to fall in and out of sin?

---

TV: That people are perfect through abiding in Jesus I can agree with. That perfection necessarily means not committing any sins is the question. The words used for perfection in the bible do not have lawabiding as synonyms but rather completeness, wholeness, soundness, integrity.

MM: Do the words for "perfect" in the Bible exclude obeying the law? Do the words "completeness, wholeness, soundness, integrity" exclude obeying the law?

Also, what do the words for "perfect" mean in relation to Jesus? Do they exclude obeying the law? Do they mean one thing for Jesus and another thing for born again believers who are abiding in Jesus?

Skylynx, thank you for sharing your testimony. I am very glad you guys got married. Funny he was thinking the same thing. Sweet.

I could use your advice. I know a couple, both are believers, met at church in fact, both have children, and they are living together out of wedlock. They are also officers at church. One day they asked my opinion about living together out of wedlock. Yikes!

I had them read it in the Bible and in the SOP and in the church manual. They agreed living together out of wedlock is condemned in all three sources. But, they prayed about it and decided God was making an exception in their case. That was 2 years ago. The regular pastor is unwilling to do address it.

What should the church do about it? Should they ignore it? Or, should they censure them and remove them from holding church offices?

Recently, one of these couples has complained to the pastor that two teens are living together out of wedlock. One of the teens is their daughter.

they feel the exception to the rule only applies to older people, not to younger people.

He agrees his approach is not biblical, but he argues that times are different, that what was right in biblical times is not right nowadays.

The people who decided to go to different churches did so to avoid their own teens being influenced to live with someone else out of wedlock. I suppose this could be perceived as critical, judgmental, intolerant, unaccepting, holier-than-thou, and unChristlike. I don't know. Perhaps they are simply being protective parents.

The cohabitating parents whose teen daughter is living with her boyfriend out of wedlock are complaining to the pastor because they feel the exception to the rule only applies to older people, not to younger people.

The pastor feels like doing nothing is doing the right thing. He believes the church family should love them and accept them and that this will lead them to eventually do the right thing. He agrees his approach is not biblical, but he argues that times are different, that what was right in biblical times is not right nowadays.

Thomas, yes, naive should be added to the list. But what more can caring parents do? The two cohabitating teens are high school graduates. They both work fulltime. So, I doubt they have much time to see the youth during the rest of the week. I'm also a youth leader and I rarely see the youth outside of the Sabbath hours. Schedules just never seem to allow it. In spite of the fact most of the youth and leaders only see each other on the Sabbath, they seem to benefit from atttending class and church on the Sabbath.

I'm not sure if there is no difference between what is lawful for teens and what is lawful for adults, even if the adults only high school graduates and teens themselves. In the USA, being 18 years old changes the rules, different laws apply. They are considered an adult, not a youth. However, the law of God does not make acceptions for living and sleeping together out of wedlock, no matter how old or young.

A good thing to do in cases involving office-holding church members, who are living together out of wedlock, is to place them on probation. While on probation they are not allowed to hold office. During probation, caring people should meet with them and show from the Word of God the truth about marriage, fornication, and adultery.

If they refuse to comply with the Word of God they should be removed from holding membership. It should be explained to them that this adminstrative position in no way means they are not loved or prayed for. What it does mean, though, is that the Church believes their mortal souls are in danger of hellfire, that if they do not repent and comply with the Word of God they are not abiding in Jesus, they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But is any of it from self, or all the Holy Spirit's transformation after we are led to accept that path...?

Pornography was an open sin in your church previously?

Haven't read all the threads yet in this topic; but I would like to know what Jesus meant when He told people to "Go and sin no more." Did that refer to ALL sin, or just the sin that got them into the trouble that Jesus healed/fixed??????

How do we "Go and sin no more"??

Haven't read all the threads yet in this topic; but I would like to know what Jesus meant when He told people to "Go and sin no more." Did that refer to ALL sin, or just the sin that got them into the trouble that Jesus healed/fixed?????? How do we "Go and sin no more"??

Haven't read all the threads yet in this topic; but I would like to know what Jesus meant when He told people to "Go and sin no more." Did that refer to ALL sin, or just the sin that got them into the trouble that Jesus healed/fixed??????

How do we "Go and sin no more"??

1Jn 3:9 is pretty clear that the son/daughter of God cannot sin because God's Seed - Jesus - remains in him. So the key to going and sinning no more looks like Jesus abiding in the sinner and the sinner abiding in Christ.

The power is available to them so that they need not sin.

1 John 3:4-6
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

... I believe the Bible teaches that for one born of God it is not possible to sin. Rather than victory over sin merely being available, for the true child of God victory over sin is inevitable.

Please can you qualify that thought a little more for me Asygo? Adam was born of God, but it was possible for him to sin. At what point did he cease being "born of God"?

Put another way, born-again believers who are abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature are not only not sinning, more importantly, they are, while thus connected, "perfecting holiness in the fear of God." Neglecting to abide in Jesus results in resurrecting the mind of the old man and resuming a life of sin. Reverting back to the resurrected mind of the old man, however, does not undo rebirth. It's just that while they are disconnected from Jesus they are no longer able to benefit from the holy traits and sinless attributes Jesus implanted within them the instant they experienced rebirth. The gift of repentance, praise the Lord, empowers them to the repent which, in turn, gives God the right to forgive them and to restore them to the mind of the new man. Thus restored, they resume abiding in Jesus, partaking of the divine nature, perfecting holiness unto the honor and glory of God our Father. Adam did not cease being born of God when he neglected to abide in Jesus.

Please can you qualify that thought a little more for me Asygo?

Adam was born of God, but it was possible for him to sin.
At what point did he cease being "born of God"?

1 John 5:18
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 3:6
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

Adam did not cease being born of God when he neglected to abide in Jesus.

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

But to employ any language that expresses the impossibility of sinning, is fraught [in my view] with subtle dangers.

M: Put another way, born-again believers who are abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature are not only not sinning, more importantly, they are, while thus connected, "perfecting holiness in the fear of God." Neglecting to abide in Jesus results in resurrecting the mind of the old man and resuming a life of sin. Reverting back to the resurrected mind of the old man, however, does not undo rebirth. It's just that while they are disconnected from Jesus they are no longer able to benefit from the holy traits and sinless attributes Jesus implanted within them the instant they experienced rebirth. The gift of repentance, praise the Lord, empowers them to the repent which, in turn, gives God the right to forgive them and to restore them to the mind of the new man. Thus restored, they resume abiding in Jesus, partaking of the divine nature, perfecting holiness unto the honor and glory of God our Father. Adam did not cease being born of God when he neglected to abide in Jesus.

S: Good. Yes, thank you, I agree with all this. But to employ any language that expresses the impossibility of sinning, is fraught [in my view] with subtle dangers.

I disagree. One cannot be born of God unless he abides in Jesus. Once you separate from Jesus, you are no longer a child of God. You become a slave that must be redeemed.


John tells us that whoever is born of God overcomes the world - the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life. But Adam fell in all three aspects. No, he was not born of God at that time.

Spiritually speaking we cease being a child of God while we are walking in the mind of the old man, living as slaves and servants of sin, self, and Satan. But physically speaking everyone, including evil angels, is a child of God.

The miracle of rebirth doesn't cease being a fact of history while we are walking in the mind of old man.

Also, the short period of time that elapses between sinning, repenting, and being restored to the mind of new man isn't long enough to seriously derail the momentum we gained while faithfully walking in the mind of the new man.

M: Also, the short period of time that elapses between sinning, repenting, and being restored to the mind of new man isn't long enough to seriously derail the momentum we gained while faithfully walking in the mind of the new man.

A: I'm not sure about this. I will get back to it later.

I'm referring to "occasional misdeeds". "A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2} For example, after hours of being worn down by hassles and headaches trying to set up the tent in high winds and heavy rain, I bark at my poor, darling wife. I am immediately sorry and repentant and apologize profusely.

If Joseph and Mary had stayed their minds upon God by meditation and prayer, they would have realized the sacredness of their trust, and would not have lost sight of Jesus. By one day’s neglect they lost the Saviour; but it cost them three days of anxious search to find Him. So with us; by idle talk, evilspeaking, or neglect of prayer, we may in one day lose the Saviour’s presence, and it may take many days of sorrowful search to find Him, and regain the peace that we have lost. {DA 83.1}

In our association with one another, we should take heed lest we forget Jesus, and pass along unmindful that He is not with us. When we become absorbed in worldly things so that we have no thought for Him in whom our hope of eternal life is centered, we separate ourselves from Jesus and from the heavenly angels. These holy beings cannot remain where the Saviour’s presence is not desired, and His absence is not marked. This is why discouragement so often exists among the professed followers of Christ. {DA 83.2}

So with us; by idle talk, evilspeaking, or neglect of prayer, we may in one day lose the Saviour’s presence, and it may take many days of sorrowful search to find Him, and regain the peace that we have lost.

As I said earlier, Moses repented immediately. However, every sin bears consequences that even eternity cannot completely erase. So, yes, Moses lost ground and momentum. Past victories cannot make up for current and future disobedience.

Yes, people do lose some ground and momentum when they sin. But just how much ground and momentum is lost when they sin is the question. In the case of Moses, do you think his sin caused him to lose so much ground and momentum that it took "many days of sorrowful search to find Him, and regain the peace that we have lost"?

If he had continued faithful, and his life had not been marred with that one transgression, in failing to give to God the glory of bringing water from the rock, he would have entered the promised land, and would have been translated to Heaven without seeing death. {1SP 342.2}

Satan exulted that he had succeeded in causing Moses to sin against God. For this transgression, Moses came under the dominion of death. {1SP 342.2}

The life of Moses was marked with supreme love to God. His piety, humility and forbearance, gave him influence with the host of Israel. His zeal and faith in God were greater than those of any other man upon the earth. He had often addressed his people in words of stirring eloquence. No one knew better than he how to move the affections of the people. He conducted all matters connected with the religious interests of the people with great wisdom. {1SP 342.1}

It also appears we agree overcoming is not only possible but necessary.

I'm curious if we agree on the definition of overcoming. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." To overcome, therefore, means to successfully resist sinning just like Jesus did.

It does not include sinning and repenting.

We overcome by surrender
Romans 6:16
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:19
(19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.


When we surrender daily to God He works in us
Philippians 2:13
(13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Furthermore, since we are selfish by nature and Jesus was not, we are naturally attracted to evil things that Jesus recoiled from. We like evil, but He did not. Therefore, while we like sinful things, He was tempted by things that were not inherently sinful (such as the natural beauty of God's creation).

He was tempted by the unnatural beauty of things Satan had done, which is evidenced by Satan's temptation of Christ, where Satan showed Him his (Satan's) creations. Christ resisted this temptation by looking away.

Christ was tempted by the same things which tempt us.

Christ was tempted by the same things which tempt us.

M: Jesus did not come in the likeness of sinners who have not yet experienced rebirth. Instead, He came in the likeness of believers who have 1) experienced rebirth, who have 2) received the "new nature" with all its "new" traits and attributes, who are 3) partaking of the divine nature, and who are, thereby, 4) being empowered to recognize and resist sin, self, and Satan, and, more importantly, are 5) being empowered to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

Do you believe "overcoming" as Jesus "overcame" includes maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, cultivating sinless traits of character more and more perfectly? If so, then I disagree. I believe it refers specifically to recognizing and resisting temptations, namely, temptations from within and from without. By saying "from within" I mean the fact sinful flesh tempts people from within to satisfy their innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. What do you think?

A: This will have to wait for a bit, like the LGT thread. Sorry.

Is the unregenerate tempted by the same things as the regenerate?

Why would Christ have any interest in man-made cities?

Why would He have to look away to avoid being tempted?

I'm not understanding how the question, "Is the unregenerate tempted by the same things as the regenerate?" ties in here, since it implies we are "unregenerate."

In addition to taking our nature, Christ took our sin upon Him, which is what made His temptations so difficult to meet.

It seems to me that you are saying that the "bridge" Jesus built, that "we walk across," was built at least partially, by His being "tempted by the same things which tempt us." I want to know if you believe the "bridge" He built reaches to the unregenerate as well. Furthermore, did He also take the sins of the unregenerate upon Himself?

Regarding the first part of the post, if Jesus had come as you perceived Him to have come, it doesn't appear to me that what Satan was presenting to Him would have been any temptation to Him whatsoever. That's what's not making sense to me.

Yes, it reaches to the unregenerate as well. ...

Regarding which sins Christ took, He took everyone's sins upon Him; all sin.

T:Regarding the first part of the post, if Jesus had come as you perceived Him to have come, it doesn't appear to me that what Satan was presenting to Him would have been any temptation to Him whatsoever. That's what's not making sense to me.

a:Why not? I perceive Jesus as not wanting sin, but recoiling from it. Is Satan only able to tempt those who already like sin?

The Son of God was assaulted at every step by the powers of darkness. After His baptism He was driven of the Spirit into the wilderness, and suffered temptation for forty days. Letters have been coming in to me, affirming that Christ could not have had the same nature as man, for if He had, He would have fallen under similar temptations. If He did not have man’s nature, He could not be our example. If He was not a partaker of our nature, He could not have been tempted as man has been. If it were not possible for Him to yield to temptation, He could not be our helper. It was a solemn reality that Christ came to fight the battles as man, in man’s behalf. His temptation and victory tell us that humanity must copy the Pattern; man must become a partaker of the divine nature.(The Review and Herald, February 18, 1890).

Temptation involves a desire to do the thing about which one is being tempted.

...the same questions raised today, objecting that if Christ had taken our nature He would have fallen, and the response to that objection is the same now as it was then.

Arnold, please consider the following insights and observations:

1. His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own. (6 MR 111) He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. (MM 181) He was not only made flesh, but He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. (5BC 1124) It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the form and nature of fallen man, that he might be made perfect through suffering, and endure himself the strength of Satan's temptations, that he might the better know how to succor those who should be tempted. (4aSG 115)

You seem to think Jesus' humanity was identical to ours in form but not in fallen nature.

2. Unless there is a possibility of yielding, temptation is no temptation. Temptation is resisted when man is powerfully influenced to do a wrong action; and, knowing that he can do it, resists, by faith, with a firm hold upon divine power. This was the ordeal through which Christ passed. (3SM 132)

You seem to think Jesus could not be powerfully tempted or influenced to do a wrong a action.

3. He assumed human nature, with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. (3SM 132) He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. (4 BC 1147) He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world. (7A 450)

You seem to think Jesus was not tempted from within by fallen flesh nature, by its temptations, its unholy appetites and passions.

4. Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield, for God made him pure and upright in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet with temptations of Satan, He bore the “likeness of sinful flesh. (ST 10-17-1900)

You seem to compare Jesus to Adam before the Fall, whereas, Ellen contrasts the two by saying Jesus bore the likeness of our sinful flesh with its indwelling sin, corrupt principles, and evil tendencies.

Arnold, please address 139,152 and 153 (just a few posts ago). Thank you.

Tom:Temptation involves a desire to do the thing about which one is being tempted.

asygo:So, did Jesus have a desire to do evil things?

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

asygo:Was Jesus tempted in the same way the unregenerate are temped?

EGW:If He was not a partaker of our nature, He could not have been tempted as man has been. If it were not possible for Him to yield to temptation, He could not be our helper.

...the same questions raised today, objecting that if Christ had taken our nature He would have fallen, and the response to that objection is the same now as it was then.

a:No, not the same, as the part I emphasized should show. You have fallen for the bait and switch.

For example, are recently reborn believers tempted to smoke, drink, overeat, curse, steal, cheat, hate, etc the same as unbelievers are? Yes, of course. Even seasoned soldiers of the cross are similarly tempted. However, as time slips by, believers who are serious about abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature are tempted by fewer of their former favorite sins. Does it mean Jesus was never tempted like a common believer? Well, was He "tempted in all points like as we are" or not? Remember, being tempted is not a sin. Struggling not to sin is not a sin, either. Did Jesus ever really struggle not to commit the types of sins listed above?

Jesus did not come in the likeness of sinners who have not yet experienced rebirth. Instead, He came in the likeness of believers who have 1) experienced rebirth, who have 2) received the "new nature" with all its "new" traits and attributes, who are 3) partaking of the divine nature, and who are, thereby, 4) being empowered to recognize and resist sin, self, and Satan, and, more importantly, are 5) being empowered to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

Do you believe "overcoming" as Jesus "overcame" includes maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, cultivating sinless traits of character more and more perfectly? If so, then I disagree. I believe it refers specifically to recognizing and resisting temptations, namely, temptations from within and from without. By saying "from within" I mean the fact sinful flesh tempts people from within to satisfy their innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. What do you think?

I'm not sure why you're repeating questions I just answered.

As far as I can tell, the points and arguments you are making are the same as those who opposed Jones and Waggoner on this point in the past, and the same as arguments being made today by those who oppose them now. If you perceive some difference between you own objections and those that others have, please clarify what you perceive that difference to be.

1. His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own. (6 MR 111) He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. (MM 181) He was not only made flesh, but He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. (5BC 1124) It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the form and nature of fallen man, that he might be made perfect through suffering, and endure himself the strength of Satan's temptations, that he might the better know how to succor those who should be tempted. (4aSG 115)

M: You seem to think Jesus' humanity was identical to ours in form but not in fallen nature.

A: That depends on what you include in the "nature" Jesus had. Fallen flesh, yes. Sinful mind, no. His finite nature was perfect.

2. Unless there is a possibility of yielding, temptation is no temptation. Temptation is resisted when man is powerfully influenced to do a wrong action; and, knowing that he can do it, resists, by faith, with a firm hold upon divine power. This was the ordeal through which Christ passed. (3SM 132)

M: You seem to think Jesus could not be powerfully tempted or influenced to do a wrong a action.

A: He was powerfully tempted to do a wrong action. But I cannot deny the His nature recoiled from evil.

3. He assumed human nature, with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. (3SM 132) He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. (4 BC 1147) He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world. (7A 450)

M: You seem to think Jesus was not tempted from within by fallen flesh nature, by its temptations, its unholy appetites and passions.

A: You seem to say that Jesus, in His heart, was attracted to sin. I reject that. He had fallen flesh, but not a sinful mind or a corrupt heart.

4. Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield, for God made him pure and upright in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet with temptations of Satan, He bore the “likeness of sinful flesh. (ST 10-17-1900)

M: You seem to compare Jesus to Adam before the Fall, whereas, Ellen contrasts the two by saying Jesus bore the likeness of our sinful flesh with its indwelling sin, corrupt principles, and evil tendencies.

A: Are you saying that in Jesus were corrupt principles and evil tendencies?

The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. {AH 127.2}

A: Is the unregenerate tempted by the same things as the regenerate?

M: For example, are recently reborn believers tempted to smoke, drink, overeat, curse, steal, cheat, hate, etc the same as unbelievers are? Yes, of course. Even seasoned soldiers of the cross are similarly tempted. However, as time slips by, believers who are serious about abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature are tempted by fewer of their former favorite sins. Does it mean Jesus was never tempted like a common believer? Well, was He "tempted in all points like as we are" or not? Remember, being tempted is not a sin. Struggling not to sin is not a sin, either. Did Jesus ever really struggle not to commit the types of sins listed above?

A: You said "recently reborn believers" are "tempted to smoke, drink, overeat, curse, steal, cheat, hate, etc the same as unbelievers are." Are these "recently reborn believers" regenerate? But you said the "serious" ones are "tempted by fewer of their former favorite sins." How do they relate to those former favorite sins which no longer tempt them? Do they still want to do them? Or do they no longer desire those things? Was Jesus tempted by more "favorite sins" than these "serious" ones, or fewer?

M: Jesus did not come in the likeness of sinners who have not yet experienced rebirth. Instead, He came in the likeness of believers who have 1) experienced rebirth, who have 2) received the "new nature" with all its "new" traits and attributes, who are 3) partaking of the divine nature, and who are, thereby, 4) being empowered to recognize and resist sin, self, and Satan, and, more importantly, are 5) being empowered to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

A: Didn't you say, in the post I just replied to, that the reborn believer is tempted by the same things as the unbeliever? But here you are saying that his nature is new. Is the new nature tempted by the same things as the unbeliever?

M: Do you believe "overcoming" as Jesus "overcame" includes maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, cultivating sinless traits of character more and more perfectly? If so, then I disagree. I believe it refers specifically to recognizing and resisting temptations, namely, temptations from within and from without. By saying "from within" I mean the fact sinful flesh tempts people from within to satisfy their innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. What do you think?

A: I don't think I understand what you're saying here. You may be referring to threads which I have not read. In any case, my idea of overcoming as Jesus overcame is fairly simple. He faithfully followed God's word, in spite of any and every opposition. We should be as faithful. However, full acceleration in a Model T does not yield identical results to full acceleration in a Mustang.

Romans 6:16
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Philippians 2:13
(13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1. His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own. (6 MR 111) He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. (MM 181) He was not only made flesh, but He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. (5BC 1124) It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the form and nature of fallen man, that he might be made perfect through suffering, and endure himself the strength of Satan's temptations, that he might the better know how to succor those who should be tempted. (4aSG 115)

M: You seem to think Jesus' humanity was identical to ours in form but not in fallen nature.

A: That depends on what you include in the "nature" Jesus had. Fallen flesh, yes. Sinful mind, no. His finite nature was perfect.

M: He blended two natures - human and divine. The precise same thing happens when we experience rebirth. "Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. The Godhead was not made human, and the human was not deified by the blending together of the two natures. Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then He could not be a perfect offering." {3SM 131.1}

A: Did Jesus possess human nature like He possessed divine nature?

2. Unless there is a possibility of yielding, temptation is no temptation. Temptation is resisted when man is powerfully influenced to do a wrong action; and, knowing that he can do it, resists, by faith, with a firm hold upon divine power. This was the ordeal through which Christ passed. (3SM 132)

M: You seem to think Jesus could not be powerfully tempted or influenced to do a wrong a action.

A: He was powerfully tempted to do a wrong action. But I cannot deny the His nature recoiled from evil.

M: How was He tempted? And, what were some of the wrong actions He was tempted to do?

A: He was tempted when Satan suggested courses of action that were not congruent with God's will. For example, Satan suggested that He eat when it was not God's will for Him to eat. But notice that Satan suggested that He eat bread - good, wholesome bread made by God Himself. Satan did not bother to tempt Him with a tasty slice of ham.

3. He assumed human nature, with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. (3SM 132) He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. (4 BC 1147) He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world. (7A 450)

M: You seem to think Jesus was not tempted from within by fallen flesh nature, by its temptations, its unholy appetites and passions.

A: You seem to say that Jesus, in His heart, was attracted to sin. I reject that. He had fallen flesh, but not a sinful mind or a corrupt heart.

M: Please understand that I do not believe Jesus desired to sin. He hated sin. But His fallen flesh tempted Him from within to sin. Ellen clearly wrote - "He assumed human nature, with its . . . temptations." It is not a sin to be tempted.

A: So, if Jesus had no desire to sin, even hated sin, who was it that was tempting Him to sin? You remember James' description of the process of sin, and what it is that draws us into sin. Was Jesus drawn away by His "own lusts" and enticed?

4. Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield, for God made him pure and upright in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet with temptations of Satan, He bore the “likeness of sinful flesh. (ST 10-17-1900)

M: You seem to compare Jesus to Adam before the Fall, whereas, Ellen contrasts the two by saying Jesus bore the likeness of our sinful flesh with its indwelling sin, corrupt principles, and evil tendencies.

A: Are you saying that in Jesus were corrupt principles and evil tendencies?

The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. {AH 127.2}

A: Are you saying that in Jesus were corrupt principles and evil tendencies?
M: Yes, Ellen said so in the passages posted above.

A: Are you saying that in Jesus were corrupt principles and evil tendencies?
M: Yes, Ellen said so in the passages posted above.

R: "He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. ...
Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption." {5BC 1128}

In his prayer to the Father, Christ said, "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." We must learn of Christ. We must know what he is to those he has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. Christ is the sin-bearer; John pointed the people to him, saying, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." And Paul declared. "You hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, . . . and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." {RH, April 24, 1900 par. 6}

Christ says to us, "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." We are ever to learn of Christ. Yoked up with him in perfect restraint, we are to be learners during our whole lifetime. Then we are indeed "laborers together with God." We can be acceptable teachers only as we learn Christ's meekness and lowliness. Constantly we must learn more and more regarding these attributes. As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of his nature, we co-operate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. God works, and man works, that man may be one with Christ as Christ is one with God. Then we sit together with Christ in heavenly places. The mind rests with peace and assurance in Jesus. The Saviour declares, "He that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." In him there is inexhaustible fullness. As we follow on to know the Lord, we shall lead souls to the living word. With us they will know that his going forth is prepared as the morning. {RH, April 24, 1900 par. 7}

Did Jesus take fallen, sinful flesh upon Himself? If so, was it different than our fallen, sinful flesh nature? If so, in what ways was it different?

Newborn believers are free of sinful propensities, cleansed of all sin, free of all defects of character. Even their hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from their characters. How was Jesus' humanity different?

M: Did Jesus take fallen, sinful flesh upon Himself? If so, was it different than our fallen, sinful flesh nature? If so, in what ways was it different?

R: Again, the answer is in the Baker letter: "Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {13MR 18.1}

M: [quotes omitted]. Newborn believers are free of sinful propensities, cleansed of all sin, free of all defects of character. Even their hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from their characters. How was Jesus' humanity different?

R: It seems to me this is a gradual work in us: "There is no such thing as an instantaneous sanctification. It is an every-day work. Says Paul, "I die daily" (1 Cor. 15:31). He received a conversion daily to God. As the truth and Spirit of God revealed to him the defects in his character, he put away his wrong, died to self, and cleansed himself "from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor. 7:1). . . . {UL 231.3} "Every day hereditary tendencies to wrong will strive for the mastery. Every day you are to war against your objectionable traits of character, until there are left in you none of those things which need to be separated from you. {VSS 304.4}

What does "in Him" refer to in the following extract - "but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity"? Does it refer to the sinful human nature He took upon His sinless divine nature? Or, does it refer to something else?

Is sanctification a lifelong process of gradually outgrowing sinful traits of character? If so, why does Ellen say the opposite? She wrote, "sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another." {ML 250.4}

The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

Rosangela, it isn't as obvious to me that the sinful flesh nature Jesus took upon His sinless divine nature was as sinless as A&E's nature before they sinned. Even the passage you posted above doesn't say His sinful flesh nature was sinless.

Newborn believers are born again with all the fruits of the Spirit and all the righteous attributes of God's character. Not one is missing.

Ellen didn't say Jesus' human nature was sinless.

Actually, both quotes clearly say newborn believers are born again with all the fruits and attributes of God's character.

Having defective traits of character isn't the same thing as acting them out in sinful ways.

M: Ellen didn't say Jesus' human nature was sinless.

R: She said it didn't possess sinful propensities. She couldn't say that about any of us.

M: Actually, both quotes clearly say newborn believers are born again with all the fruits and attributes of God's character.

R: Someone who has a perfect character doesn't sin. The very fact that you lose your hold upon heaven and fall into sin shows that your character is imperfect.

R: You may exhibit God's attributes but you do so intermitently, and this shows you have defects of character.

M: Having defective traits of character isn't the same thing as acting them out in sinful ways.

R: The problem is you act them out. (I'm not speaking of you specifically, but of all Christians)

Rosangela, I'm glad you jumped in when I had to leave for a while. As usual, we are on the same page.

MM, I will pick up where we left off when I get more breathing room.

M: Ellen didn't say Jesus' human nature was sinless.
R: She said it didn't possess sinful propensities. She couldn't say that about any of us.
M: No, she never once said Jesus' sinful flesh nature was free of sinful propensities.

R: Someone who has a perfect character doesn't sin. The very fact that you lose your hold upon heaven and fall into sin shows that your character is imperfect.
M: Lucifer and a third of the angels sinned. A&E sinned. So, what you said isn't accurate.

R: You may exhibit God's attributes but you do so intermitently, and this shows you have defects of character.
M: Can Jesus empower born-again believers to live without sinning this side of heaven? Please explain.

M: Having defective traits of character isn't the same thing as acting them out in sinful ways.
R: The problem is you act them out. (I'm not speaking of you specifically, but of all Christians)
M: But not while they're abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature. "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not."

I'm not sure you two agree on at least one point, namely, whether or not born-again believers (who are abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature) experience untainted "righteousness and true holiness" before it passes through corrupt human channels. For some reason I seem to recall Rosangela saying that their "righteousness and true holiness" is initially untainted, and that not until after it passes through corrupt human channels is it tainted with sin.

Rosangela, I'm glad you jumped in when I had to leave for a while. As usual, we are on the same page.

MM, I will pick up where we left off when I get more breathing room.

...So when Sister White says Jesus was tempted it means Jesus wanted to rape, steal, participate in adultry, molest children. ...

The human nature according to Sock Puppet Jesus took on was rancid, full of every foul desire...

Foul desire is SIN.

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires [epithumea] and enticed. Then, when desire [epithumea] has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death (James 1:14, 15).

For I would not have known covetousness [epithumia] unless the law had said, "You shall not covet [epithumeo]" (Rom. 7:7).

When the Bible openly condemns many of our distinctive doctrines.

...Like a christ with conditional deity that could have failed to execute the plan of salvation.

You put EGW and the Bible in contradiction, when there is no contradiction at all.

It doesn't.

Failing was a possibility speaking in human terms, but God's omniscience was aware it wouldn't come true. Or do you believe in open omniscience, too?

The Bible is just silent about what would have happened if Christ had sinned, while EGW speaks a little about this subject. Obviously, if Christ couldn't sin, He couldn't really have been tempted, and the Bible is clear that He was tempted.

M: Ellen didn't say Jesus' human nature was sinless.
R: She said it didn't possess sinful propensities. She couldn't say that about any of us.
M: No, she never once said Jesus' sinful flesh nature was free of sinful propensities.
R: She never once uses the expression "sinful flesh nature." She speaks about Christ's "human nature." And if she isn't saying that His human nature was free of sinful propensities, what was she saying, then, in the passage below? "Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin."

We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ. {FLB 49.2}

The human nature of Christ was like unto ours. And suffering was really more keenly felt by Him, for His spiritual nature was free from every taint of sin. {CTr 268.6}

When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. {OHC 48.2}

He came not to show us what God could do, but what God did do, and what man, [when he is] a partaker of the divine nature, can do. It was the human nature of Christ that endured the temptations in the wilderness, not His divine nature. {14MR 334.1}

In our own strength it is impossible for us to deny the clamors of our fallen nature. Through this channel Satan will bring temptation upon us. . . And by passing over the ground which man must travel, our Lord has prepared the way for us to overcome. {1MCP 145.3}

Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, he showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature. {3SM 134.2}

The fallen nature of man is like the vine's tendrils grasping the stubble and rubbish. But Christ is represented as coming down from heaven and taking the nature of man, thus making it possible for the human arm of Christ to encircle fallen man, while with His divine arm He reaches to the very throne of God so that He can place man on vantage ground with God. {17MR 27.6}

Christ assumed our fallen nature, and was subject to every temptation to which man is subject. Even in His childhood He was often tempted. Through life He remained unyielding to every inducement to commit sin. {2SAT 235.1}

In their fallen nature people can do the very things God expects them to do through the help provided for them. {CTr 53.4}

His grace alone can enable us to resist and subdue the tendencies of our fallen nature. {CCh 322.8}

Our fallen nature must be purified, ennobled, consecrated by obedience to the truth. {5T 235.3}

To the careless, the indifferent, the unconcerned, those standing on the precipice of ruin, Christ says: Open the door of your heart; give Me entrance, and I will make you a child of God. I will transform your weak, sinful nature into the divine image, giving it beauty and perfection. {TMK 106.3}

The sinful nature is to be kept under the control of the Spirit of God. The transforming grace of Christ will bring the will into harmony with the will of Christ. {GCDB, February 6, 1893 par. 15}

He will sanctify every soul that will receive the gracious gift, and [will] give him power to become a son of God. He takes away the destructive tendencies of the sinful nature and brings the human agency into His service. {18MR 208.2}

R: Someone who has a perfect character doesn't sin. The very fact that you lose your hold upon heaven and fall into sin shows that your character is imperfect.
M: Lucifer and a third of the angels sinned. A&E sinned. So, what you said isn't accurate.
R: It is accurate. For them to sin, it was necessary that first some attributes of their character were perverted.

R: You may exhibit God's attributes but you do so intermitently, and this shows you have defects of character.
M: Can Jesus empower born-again believers to live without sinning this side of heaven? Please explain.
R: Yes, this is possible, but it doesn't happen instantaneously the moment you are born again.

M: Having defective traits of character isn't the same thing as acting them out in sinful ways.
R: The problem is you act them out. (I'm not speaking of you specifically, but of all Christians)
M: But not while they're abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature. "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not."
R: If you abide in Christ intermitently, this shows your character is defective.

M: I'm not sure you two agree on at least one point, namely, whether or not born-again believers (who are abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature) experience untainted "righteousness and true holiness" before it passes through corrupt human channels. For some reason I seem to recall Rosangela saying that their "righteousness and true holiness" is initially untainted, and that not until after it passes through corrupt human channels is it tainted with sin.

R: I said the righteousness is untainted in its origin (i. e. God), but it becomes tainted by the corrupt human channels. "Jesus bears tenderly with them, not rebuking their selfishness in seeking preference above their brethren. He reads their hearts, He knows the depth of their attachment to Him. Their love is not a mere human affection; though defiled by the earthliness of its human channel, it is an outflowing from the fountain of His own redeeming love. He will not rebuke, but deepen and purify. {DA 548.6}

When the Bible says that God knows the end from the beginning...
...And the Bible says God declaired the end to all the prophets.
...And the prophets of the Bible say God would NOT fail.

And Sister White says He could have failed what do you seriously call that...
...If NOT a contradiction.

When the Bible says that no man knows the day or season of the Coming of Christ...
...And our founding Pioneers "1st test" was a positive breaking of that warning from Christ.
...If that's not a contradiction I would hate to see what you thought one was.

...I showed you where both Sock Puppet AND our Church said Jesus restrained himself.
...From completing the foul desires he yearned to act out.
...Where is your answer to that?

You realize that there is more than 100 absolute affirmations that God would not fail...
...In the same place the ones I posted came from.

The Bible is silent on what would have happend if Christ failed...
...Because it's an alien idea to the Bible that Christ could fail.

Sinful, fallen human nature can be reigned in and forced to live in harmony with the principles of God's law. It is done by uniting it with the divine nature. This is what Jesus did.