Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/14/09 10:19 PM

Is there anything happening in the world or in the church that makes you think Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? What makes you think Jesus could return within the next 10 years?

"You will not be able to say that He will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off His coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years.--RH March 22, 1892. {LDE 33.2}
Posted By: dedication

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/15/09 01:19 AM

Every year that goes by brings us closer to Jesus' arrival. The very fact that 169 years have passed since the three angels' messages began to sound, means we are that many years closer to the event.

As to events:
yes, it's incredible how things are lining up to the prophetic picture we were given.

1. The different Denominational Churches will seek to unify and in order to do this certain doctrinal differences will have to be waived: (EGW comments see GC 444)

Ecumenical News

2. The Protestants will reach out and clasp the hand of Roman Catholism.

"Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power," (GC 451)

Today people are asking "Is Protestantism Dead"?
We've all heard that March 29, 1994, leading evangelicals and Catholics signed a joint declaration, "Evangelicals and Catholics Together: The Christian Mission in the 3rd. Millennium."

Wanted: Euro Body of unity of all Churches, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant

3. Protestants will compromise doctrine to gain the favor of Roman Catholism. Rome doesn't change.

"EGW wrote:
There is an increasing indifference concerning the doctrines that separate the reformed churches from the papal hierarchy; the opinion is gaining ground that, after all, we do not differ so widely upon vital points as has been supposed, and that a little concession on our part will bring us into a better understanding with Rome."
BE.1887-02-01

Protestants are dialoguing with Rome. Rome has no intentions whatsoever to give up her doctrines, Rome even declared that the Pope must have primacy in the coming union, but Protestanism is riddled with the cry that doctrines should not separate, that doctrines are not what's important.

John Paul II in the Encyclical "Ut unum sint" addressed the importance of the primacy of the papacy and while they are dialoguing how to impliment this into ecumenicalism, they have no intention to back away from this primacy.

Primacy of Peter

4. Protestant churches will unite and influence the State to enforce their beliefs.

EGW. Spiritual Gifts, vol. 4, page 277
When the churches of our land, uniting upon such points of faith as are held by them in common, shall influence the State to enforce their decrees and sustain their institutions, then will Protestant America have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy.

While they haven't managed to do this yet, the desire to do this is definitely working.

5. America shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and Republican government,
(See Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 451)

This could take up a whole thread of it's own. The Consititution is definitely being undermined!

The Patriot Act: How it undermines the Constitution


There's more!
Posted By: dedication

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/15/09 02:54 AM

A Faltering Economy (economic crises) offers opportunity to pass laws that will enable a tyrannical control of the world.
Compare with Rev. 13 "no man buy or sell save he that has the mark of the beast"

Once these laws are in place they will ultimately be used to harass God's people. -- The worship of the beast.

The economic downslide at present is international -- the time is short.

Excellent sermon on this point:
The coming Economic Crises -- religious or political?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/15/09 07:33 PM

Why do you think these developing issues mean Jesus' arrival is more likely to happen than before? Haven't they been developing since 1844? The stage was set for Jesus to arrive around 1888. What prevented it? And, is it still preventing it today?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/16/09 06:11 AM

The above issues have been developing for many years, yes, but now they are reaching a level that wasn't possible back then.

Now, I think I know the answer you are "fishing for", but I have some big questions on that.

Basically we've been told that had the church accepted and applied the "righteousness by faith" message and come together in unity of the faith giving "the loud cry", Christ would have come. Now since the church still hasn't accepted and applied the "righteousness by faith" message and come together in unity of the faith Christ's coming has been long delayed.

For the most part I've been a strong defender of the church, but lately I've become discouraged.

If the above is the criteria, I don't think Christ will ever come.

Is the church any closer now then in 1888? NO! It is now so riddled with every wind of doctrine many don't even know what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist. The panthiestic leanings back then were extremely mild when compared to some of the "new age" sentiments coming in in our day. Ballenger's questioning on the sanctuary is now looked at as an "alternative" and even as a step in the right direction as so many have thrown the sanctuary doctrine out as irrelevant or even damaging to their version of "righteousness by faith".

What do we see in church? Do we see a real return to primitive godliness in worship? No! -- It's all really quite formal (or in some churches they try to liven it up with more charasmatic type stuff) But something is missing.

And now they are calling all the pastors in our province to workers meeting and what are they going to teach them there?

JESUIT principles of "spiritual exercises"!!!
This is supposed to be the road to "righteousness by faith"?

These spiritualistic exercises to heighten spiritual consiousness are supposed to be "righteousness by faith"?

I guess I see the events in my posts above as the real signs that Christ is coming soon.
The only way the church will be united in faith and unity is if a mighty shaking comes first.
That shaking will come in the form of persecution when the vast majority will give up being a Seventh-day Adventist. Those who cling to Christ and truth will be the small band of believers who have made Christ their all in all.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/19/09 08:17 AM

Dedication, I share your concerns. However, seems to me what causes the shaking is the Straight Testimony. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God's people. {EW 270.2}

I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it and be purified. {EW 270.3}

The people are asleep in their sins and need to be alarmed before they can shake off this lethargy. Their ministers have preached smooth things; but God's servants, who bear sacred, vital truths, should cry aloud and spare not, that the truth may tear off the garment of security and find its way to the heart. The straight testimony that should have been given to the people in ----- was shunned by the ministers; the seed of truth was sown among thorns and has been choked by them. With some, evil besetments have flourished, and the heavenly graces have died out. {1T 249.1}

According to the light that God has given me in vision, wickedness and deception are increasing among God's people who profess to keep His commandments. Spiritual discernment to see sin as it exists, and then to put it out of the camp, is decreasing among God's people; and spiritual blindness is fast coming upon them. The straight testimony must be revived, and it will separate those from Israel who have ever been at war with the means that God has ordained to keep corruptions out of the church. Wrongs must be called wrongs. Grievous sins must be called by their right name. All of God's people should come nearer to Him and wash their robes of character in the blood of the Lamb. Then will they see sin in the true light and will realize how offensive it is in the sight of God. {3T 324.1}

The Lord calls for a renewal of the straight testimony borne in years past. He calls for a renewal of spiritual life. The spiritual energies of His people have long been torpid, but there is to be a resurrection from apparent death. {8T 297.5}

By prayer and confession of sin we must clear the King's highway. As we do this, the power of the Spirit will come to us. We need the Pentecostal energy. This will come, for the Lord has promised to send His Spirit as the all-conquering power. {8T 297.6}

What is "the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans" which will cause a shaking when resisted and rejected?
Posted By: Tom

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/19/09 10:30 PM

Great thread! I didn't notice this before. Good questions, and very interesting points.

I really appreciated your last post, ded. I think you hit the nail on the head, and sympathize completely with

Quote:
For the most part I've been a strong defender of the church, but lately I've become discouraged.

If the above is the criteria, I don't think Christ will ever come.

Is the church any closer now then in 1888? NO! It is now so riddled with every wind of doctrine many don't even know what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist. The panthiestic leanings back then were extremely mild when compared to some of the "new age" sentiments coming in in our day. Ballenger's questioning on the sanctuary is now looked at as an "alternative" and even as a step in the right direction as so many have thrown the sanctuary doctrine out as irrelevant or even damaging to their version of "righteousness by faith".

What do we see in church? Do we see a real return to primitive godliness in worship? No! -- It's all really quite formal (or in some churches they try to liven it up with more charasmatic type stuff) But something is missing.

And now they are calling all the pastors in our province to workers meeting and what are they going to teach them there?

JESUIT principles of "spiritual exercises"!!!
This is supposed to be the road to "righteousness by faith"?

These spiritualistic exercises to heighten spiritual consiousness are supposed to be "righteousness by faith"?


However, I disagree with your conclusion.

Quote:
I guess I see the events in my posts above as the real signs that Christ is coming soon.
The only way the church will be united in faith and unity is if a mighty shaking comes first.
That shaking will come in the form of persecution when the vast majority will give up being a Seventh-day Adventist. Those who cling to Christ and truth will be the small band of believers who have made Christ their all in all.


Actually, I agree with the shaking part, but what causes the shaking is the message of righteousness by faith! The reason Christ hasn't come is that the message which prepares for His coming has been consistently resisted and rejected. It's been replaced by the things you so eloquently mentioned above.

This message *cannot be bypassed*. Why? Because it's the *only way* that Christ's people can be prepared for His coming.

Quote:
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. (COL 69)


What brings this about is the righteousness by faith message, the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans, that MM referred to.

We were really, really close in the 1888 era to Christ's coming again. Even though things were so different then, still all the prophecies in "The Great Controversy" were on the verge of happening (and some were already in the process of happening). But the message wasn't responded to, and the whole process was cut short in unrighteousness, I suppose one could say.

Some day the message will be responded to, though, and Christ will come. I completely share your concern, however. Somehow things have to change. How this will happen, I think only God knows.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/20/09 07:49 AM

So long as people believe Jesus saves sinners with their sins they cannot be in harmony with the will of God. Seems to me more and more people are buying into this theory. If this is the case, if this is the current condition of the church, then is there any reason to believe Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? Are we waiting for the world to get worse or for the church to get better? If the world does get worse, will Jesus return even if the church does not get better?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/20/09 07:56 AM

We are waiting for TWO things:

1) The Gospel preached in all the world; and
2) Christ's character to be perfectly reproduced in His people.

That's it. When these items can be checked off the list, He will come to claim His own.

Maranatha!

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/20/09 08:02 AM

Quote:
manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people
I've sadly come to the conclusion that if we expect the church (that is the majority of the people in the denomination) to meet this goal before Jesus can come, He will never come.

Yes, I agree God's people need to earnestly study and humble themselves before God, as they contemplate the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans.

But the shaking will shake out all who have not heeded that True Witness.
When "cultural Adventism" is no longer "comfortable" they will renounce -- decant the three angels' messages and follow the popular religious way.

And -- from what I can gather -- this will include 95% of current Adventists.

Quote:
"It is a solemn statement that I make to the church, that not one in twenty whose names are registered upon the church books are prepared to close their earthly history, and would be as verily without God and without hope in the world as the common sinner.{ChS 41.1}

"Soon God's people will be tested by fiery trials, and the great proportion of those who now appear to be genuine and true will prove to be base metal. Instead of being strengthened and confirmed by opposition, threats, and abuse, they will cowardly take the side of the opposers.{5T 136.1}


"In the last solemn work few great men will be engaged. They are self-sufficient, independent of God, and He cannot use them. The Lord has faithful servants, who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view. There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you. But, it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the daytime we look toward heaven, but do not see stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster. {ChS 49.2}

The time is not far distant, when the test will come to every soul. . . . In this time, the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy, will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness.--Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 80,81. {ChS 49.3}

The mark of the beast will be urged upon us. Those who have step by step yielded to worldly demands and conformed to worldly customs will not find it a hard matter to yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. The contest is between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness. {Mar 200.3}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/20/09 08:11 AM

Dedication,

Take comfort in the fact that Mrs. White does not speak to the future of the church, only to its present condition. I do not necessarily believe that the "shaking" will remove 95% of the church. I do believe that it will either put people in line with Christ, or separate them out. In other words, the shaking is also a refining time--which naturally means that some who were previously unprepared, become prepared.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/20/09 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Dedication
But the shaking will shake out all who have not heeded that True Witness.

From what I can gather, you believe people will be saved in their sins, that the righteous results of divinity and humanity combined are stained with sin. If this is true, who will remain after the shaking purifies the church of people who are not heeding the message of the True Witness? Ellen wrote:

Quote:
I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it and be purified. {EW 270.3}

Those who profess to keep the law of God and yet at heart are indulging in sin are condemned by the True Witness. They claim to be rich in a knowledge of the truth; but they are not in harmony with its sacred principles. The truth does not sanctify their lives. God's Word declares that the professed commandment-keeper whose life contradicts his faith is blind, wretched, poor, and naked. {FW 31.3}

The counsel of the True Witness is full of encouragement and comfort. The churches may yet obtain the gold of truth, faith, and love, and be rich in heavenly treasure. {FLB 306.6}

Those who come up to every point, and stand every test, and overcome, be the price what it may, have heeded the counsel of the True Witness, and they will receive the latter rain, and thus be fitted for translation. {LHU 375.2}

The True Witness counsels us to buy of Him gold tried in the fire, white raiment, and eyesalve. The gold here recommended as having been tried in the fire is faith and love. It makes the heart rich; for it has been purged until it is pure, and the more it is tested the more brilliant is its luster. The white raiment is purity of character, the righteousness of Christ imparted to the sinner. {4T 88.2}

The straight testimony of the True Witness results in "righteousness and true holiness". People are pure. They are in harmony with the character of God. But I hear you saying, "Not so! Everything they think, say, and do is stained with sin." Can Jesus return and receive such people into everlasting favor?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/20/09 10:09 PM

Quote:
But the shaking will shake out all who have not heeded that True Witness.... And -- from what I can gather -- this will include 95% of current Adventists.

This roughly matches with what Ellen white said were the conditions at her time:

"It is a solemn statement that I make to the church, that not one in twenty whose names are registered upon the church books are prepared to close their earthly history, and would be as verily without God and without hope in the world as the common sinner. They are professedly serving God, but they are more earnestly serving mammon." {GCB, July 1, 1900 par. 7}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/21/09 04:05 AM

Soon God's people will be tested by fiery trials, and the great proportion of those who now appear to be genuine and true will prove to be base metal. . . . {LDE 180.3}

When the religion of Christ is most held in contempt, when His law is most despised, then should our zeal be the warmest and our courage and firmness the most unflinching. To stand in defense of truth and righteousness when the majority forsake us, to fight the battles of the Lord when champions are few--this will be our test. At this time we must gather warmth from the coldness of others, courage from their cowardice, and loyalty from their treason.--5T 136 (1882). {LDE 180.4}

As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition.--GC 608 (1911). {LDE 180.6}
Posted By: dedication

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/21/09 11:35 AM


Do I believe people are saved in their sins as you now suggest?

No, -- no one who is in rebellion against God will be saved. No one who clings to sin will be saved. We must forsake all cherished, harbored sins. I've repeated several times that we need to reach a point where we'd rather die than engage in sin and dishonor our Savior.

But you seem to be saying we must have absolute perfection in ourselves in all we are and do or we are not saved.

Absolute perfection in ourselves and refusing to engage in sin are two different things.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/21/09 07:31 PM

Dedication, please understand that I'm trying discern what you believe. The idea that the righteous results of humanity and divinity combined is stained with sin makes it impossible to say, "I'd rather die than crucify Christ afresh". If everything we think, say, and do is "a form of sinning" how can we not sin?

Ellen wrote, "The Lord requires perfection from His redeemed family. He expects from us the perfection which Christ revealed in His humanity. (CG 477) "His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was. (DA 664) "His life and character were the unfolding or representation of the perfection of the character that man may attain by becoming a partaker of the divine nature, and overcoming the world through daily conflicts. (FLB 114) "A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. (6BC 111) "It was His mission to bring to men complete restoration; He came to give them health and peace and perfection of character. {GW 41.1} "He was manifesting God in humanity. Yet He was the humblest of all the prophets, and He exemplified in His life the truth that the more perfect the character of human beings, the more simple and humble they will be. He has given to men a pattern of what they may be in their humanity, through becoming partakers of the divine nature. {TMK 111.3}

She repeatedly compares the perfection of believers to the perfection of Jesus. The perfection Jesus attained is the same perfection available to believers. She also wrote:

Quote:
"None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ's character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God's assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory. {AA 531.2} "God demands perfection from every human being. We are to be perfect in this life of humanity, even as God is perfect in His divine character. {TDG 318.1}

"Not even by a thought did He yield to temptation. So it may be with us. Christ's humanity was united with divinity; He was fitted for the conflict by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And He came to make us partakers of the divine nature. So long as we are united to Him by faith, sin has no more dominion over us. God reaches for the hand of faith in us to direct it to lay fast hold upon the divinity of Christ, that we may attain to perfection of character. {DA 123.3} "We are workers together with God in presenting the perfection of His character in humanity. {AG 229.4} "He came to the world to be a reconstructor of character, and He brought into all His work of building the perfection which He desired to bring into the characters He was transforming by His divine power. {6BC 1103.8}

"The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people. {DA 671.3} "He came to fulfill all righteousness, and, as the head of humanity, to show man that he can do the same work, meeting every specification of the requirements of God. Through the measure of His grace furnished to the human agent, not one need miss heaven. Perfection of character is attainable by every one who strives for it. This is made the very foundation of the new covenant of the gospel. The law of Jehovah is the tree; the gospel is the fragrant blossoms and fruit which it bears. {AG 141.3}

"Love is manifested in kindness, gentleness, forbearance, and longsuffering. The expression of the countenance is changed. The peace of heaven is revealed. There is seen a habitual gentleness, a more than human love. Humanity becomes a partaker of divinity. Christ is honored by perfection of character. As these changes are perfected, angels break forth in rapturous song, and God and Christ rejoice over souls fashioned after the divine similitude. {3SM 239.4} "This experience every one who is saved must have. In the day of judgment, the course of the man who has retained the frailty and imperfection of humanity will not be vindicated. For him there will be no place in heaven. He could not enjoy the perfection of the saints in light. He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that He can keep him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance into the kingdom of God. {3SM 360.4}

How can we reach the perfection specified by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ--our Great Teacher? Can we meet His requirement and attain to so lofty a standard? We can, else Christ would not have enjoined us to do so. He is our righteousness. In His humanity He has gone before us and wrought out for us perfection of character. We are to have the faith in Him that works by love and purifies the soul. Perfection of character is based upon that which Christ is to us. If we have constant dependence on the merits of our Saviour, and walk in His footsteps, we shall be like Him, pure and undefiled. {TMK 130.3}

We have before us the highest, holiest example. In thought, word, and deed Jesus was sinless. Perfection marked all that He did. He points us to the path that He trod, saying, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Matt. 16:24. {FLB 219.2}

Christ unites in His person the fullness and perfection of the Godhead and the fullness and perfection of sinless humanity. He met all the temptations by which Adam was assailed, and overcame these temptations because in His humanity He relied upon divine power. This subject demands far more contemplation than it receives. Christians strike too low. They are content with a superficial spiritual experience, and therefore they have only the glimmerings of light, when ... they might discern more clearly the wonderful perfection of Christ's humanity, which rises far above all human greatness, all human power. Christ's life is a revelation of what fallen human beings may become through union and fellowship with the divine nature. . . . {FLB 219.3}

Men and women frame many excuses for their proneness to sin. Sin is represented as a necessity, an evil that cannot be overcome. But sin is not a necessity. Christ lived in this world from infancy to manhood, and during that time He met and resisted all the temptations by which man is beset. He is a perfect pattern of childhood, of youth, of manhood. {FLB 219.4}

The life of Christ has shown what humanity can do by being partaker of the divine nature. All that Christ received from God we too may have. Then ask and receive. . . . Let your life be knit by hidden links to the life of Jesus. {FLB 219.5}

Nothing I quoted on this post implies the righteous results of humanity and divinity combined is stained with sin. Do you agree?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/21/09 11:17 PM

Then there is no hope.
If it isn't Christ's righteousness and we must do everything that is written to perfection.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/22/09 04:52 AM

Dedication, aren't both necessary, that is, the imputed and imparted righteousness of Jesus are necessary, right?

And, do you think that God "expects from us the perfection which Christ revealed in His humanity", and that it is experienced in the same way (combining humanity and divinity) and for the same reasons (honor and glorify God, vindicate His character and kingdom)?

"His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was." If they possess perfection in their humanity like Jesus did, how, then, can we say it is stained with sin?

Also, which one of the many quotes posted above do you think implies "whosoever abideth in him sinneth not" means their "righteousness and true holiness" is stained with sin? Why would it be stained with sin?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/22/09 05:04 AM

PS - I'm suggesting the straight testimony of the True Witness is the third angel's message, namely, righteousness by faith (imputed and imparted). When this message accomplishes its work, Jesus will return. Ellen wrote:

God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. (FW 100)

Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained. (1SM 397)

Several have written to me, inquiring if the message of justification by faith is the third angel's message, and I have answered, "It is the third angel's message in verity." (EV 190) Verity means - Something, such as a statement, principle, or belief, that is true, especially an enduring truth.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/22/09 03:42 PM

Quote:
Dedication, aren't both necessary, that is, the imputed and imparted righteousness of Jesus are necessary, right?

The question is, Will we need Christ's imputed righteousness at the time of trouble? Yes or No? (Please bear in mind that I'm not referring to past sins, as these will have been blotted out, that is, they will no longer exist by this time.)
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/22/09 08:32 PM

Blotting out sin does not negate the justifying blood of Jesus. Justification is eternal. His blood will cover our past pardoned sins for as long as time shall last. It will continually meet the demands of law and justice.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/23/09 02:42 AM

I disagree. How will His blood cover what no longer exists? Anyway, is it your contention that today we just need Christ's imputed righteousness to cover our sins?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/23/09 04:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Blotting out sin does not negate the justifying blood of Jesus. Justification is eternal. His blood will cover our past pardoned sins for as long as time shall last. It will continually meet the demands of law and justice.



?????
Christ justifies us by taking upon Himself our sins and giving us His righteousness.
He paid the penalty of the broken law upon the cross.
But
Christ will not bear our sins forever.
They are placed on the scape goat and burned into non-existance after the final judgment.

Sin will no longer exist as Roseangela pointed out.

The only sign that remains are the nail scares in Christ's hand as a memorial of salvation and God's great love.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/23/09 04:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
I disagree. How will His blood cover what no longer exists? Anyway, is it your contention that today we just need Christ's imputed righteousness to cover our sins?

The reason it no longer exists is because His blood eternally takes care of it. We never stop being redeemed. And, no, it takes sanctification to maintain the blessings of justification.

"God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/23/09 04:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Dedication
The only sign that remains are the nail scares in Christ's hand as a memorial of salvation and God's great love.

Amen. We will never forget we were justified and redeemed.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/23/09 05:00 AM

Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before?
Posted By: Tom

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/23/09 07:55 PM

I didn't understand what the answer to Rosangela's question was:

Quote:
R:The question is, Will we need Christ's imputed righteousness at the time of trouble? Yes or No? (Please bear in mind that I'm not referring to past sins, as these will have been blotted out, that is, they will no longer exist by this time.)


Actually, I think this can be asked like this:

"Will we need Christ's righteousness at the time of trouble? Yes or No?"
Posted By: Tom

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/23/09 07:56 PM

Quote:
Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before?


Before when?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/24/09 08:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Tom
"Will we need Christ's righteousness at the time of trouble? Yes or No?"

Need? It is an eternal reality. It will never cease being the truth. "Does the robe of Christ's righteousness continue to clothe the 144,000 after probation closes?" Of course! It will clothe them throughout eternity.

Quote:
Before when?

Before shortly after 1844 and before around 1888.
Posted By: Tom

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/25/09 03:30 AM

Quote:
T:"Will we need Christ's righteousness at the time of trouble? Yes or No?"

M:Need? It is an eternal reality. It will never cease being the truth. "Does the robe of Christ's righteousness continue to clothe the 144,000 after probation closes?" Of course! It will clothe them throughout eternity.


It doesn't appear to me you are addressing the question that's being asked. But maybe it doesn't matter.

Regarding whether Christ is nearer now than the times you mentioned, I don't think so, but I hope I'm wrong, for Christ's sake. I think 1888 was very, very close.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/25/09 10:29 PM

Tom, I agree current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is not more likely than it was around 1888. If anything the conditions that resulted in Jesus not returning around 1888 have not improved since then. In fact, current conditions are such that Jesus' arrival may be even more unlikely to happen.

Something must change. We cannot continue down the wrong path and hope Jesus will return. "We are to seek for perfect order and perfect righteousness, after God's own similitude. On these grounds alone will our works bear the test of the judgment. {1SM 114.2} Ellen further describes the path we must take:

Quote:
Several have written to me, inquiring if the message of justification by faith is the third angel's message, and I have answered, "It is the third angel's message in verity."--1SM 372 (1890). {LDE 199.4}

The Lord in His great mercy sent a most precious message to His people through Elders [E.J.] Waggoner and [A. T.] Jones. This message was to bring more prominently before the world the uplifted Saviour, the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. It presented justification through faith in the Surety; it invited the people to receive the righteousness of Christ, which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. {LDE 200.1}

Many had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His divine person, His merits, and His changeless love for the human family. All power is given into His hands, that He may dispense rich gifts unto men, imparting the priceless gift of His own righteousness to the helpless human agent. This is the message that God commanded to be given to the world. It is the third angel's message, which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice, and attended with the outpouring of His Spirit in a large measure.--TM 91, 92 (1895). {LDE 200.2}

The message of Christ's righteousness is to sound from one end of the earth to the other to prepare the way of the Lord. This is the glory of God, which closes the work of the third angel.--6T 19 (1900). {LDE 200.3}

The last message of mercy to be given to the world is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them.--COL 415, 416 (1900). {LDE 200.4}

In the following passages Ellen elaborates on the path Jones and Waggoner described:

Quote:
Faith and works go together, believing and doing are blended. The Lord requires no less of the soul now, than He required of Adam in Paradise before he fell-- perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement of God under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement He made in Paradise--harmony with His law, which is holy, and just, and good. . . God requires of His child perfect obedience. {1SM 373.1}

God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. Let us accept it through faith, that the Father shall find in us no sin. But those who have trampled on the holy law will have no right to claim that righteousness. O that we might view the immensity of the plan of salvation as obedient children to all God's requirements, believing that we have peace with God through Jesus Christ, our atoning sacrifice (RH Sept. 21, 1886)! {6BC 1072.8}

The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized. {SC 62.1}

The conditions of eternal life, under grace, are just what they were in Eden--perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law. The standard of character presented in the Old Testament is the same that is presented in the New Testament. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain. In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. {MB 76.2}

While the law is holy, the Jews could not attain righteousness by their own efforts to keep the law. The disciples of Christ must obtain righteousness of a different character from that of the Pharisees, if they would enter the kingdom of heaven. God offered them, in His Son, the perfect righteousness of the law. If they would open their hearts fully to receive Christ, then the very life of God, His love, would dwell in them, transforming them into His own likeness; and thus through God's free gift they would possess the righteousness which the law requires. But the Pharisees rejected Christ; "being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness" (Romans 10:3), they would not submit themselves unto the righteousness of God. {MB 54.2}

The above description of the path we must take is under attack. Some say "perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law . . . perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness" is impossible while in possession of fallen flesh. Is it true?
Posted By: Tom

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/26/09 04:01 AM

Originally Posted By: MM
The above description of the path we must take is under attack. Some say "perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law . . . perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness" is impossible while in possession of fallen flesh. Is it true?


You're asking if it's true that some say these things? If so, yes, it's true.

I agree with you that conditions do not appear to be as favorable as in 1888, in terms of being close to Christ's coming. However, I say that cautiously, as before 1888, nobody knew anything about Jones and Waggoner, not even Ellen White. So God had these messengers ready to go, to give a message which would have prepared the way for Christ's coming in a very short amount of time. Yet before the 1888 General Conference session, nobody, not even Ellen White, had any inkling that this was about to happen.

So it's possible that God may have something in store of which we have no inkling now. I think what you said is most likely the case, but I think it's good to be open to the possibility that things might be different than what we think.

A significant thing about 1888 is that God sent a message with the purpose of preparing a people for the coming of Christ. Of course, this people was not only SDA's. The idea was that the leadership would take the message from the 1888 GC session, and share it with those under their leadership, pastors, who would have taken it to their membership, who would have shared it with their family and friends, and in a short amount of time the world would have been prepared for Christ's coming.

Now I have no idea if God will follow a similar pattern, or if He has some other completely different idea in mind (this seems more likely to me; something that we can't anticipate), but I'm confident that regardless of the methodology used to communicate the message, the key thing will be the message. Also, I don't see how it's possible for a message to be propagated that prepares the way for the coming of Christ as long as key principles from the message which God sent in 1888 are resisted and/or neglected.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/26/09 08:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Tom
You're asking if it's true that some say these things? If so, yes, it's true.

I'm glad we agree that some people say these things. And, from the looks of things, we also agree their conclusions are incorrect.

Quote:
Also, I don't see how it's possible for a message to be propagated that prepares the way for the coming of Christ as long as key principles from the message which God sent in 1888 are resisted and/or neglected.

What are the "key principles"? Are any of them reflected in the passages I quoted above? And, are any of the key principles advocated by the SDA church? Also, which ones aren't?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/29/09 05:03 AM

Tom, did J&W say anything not covered in Steps to Christ?
Posted By: Tom

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/29/09 09:52 AM

Originally Posted By: MM
T:Also, I don't see how it's possible for a message to be propagated that prepares the way for the coming of Christ as long as key principles from the message which God sent in 1888 are resisted and/or neglected.

MM:What are the "key principles"? Are any of them reflected in the passages I quoted above? And, are any of the key principles advocated by the SDA church? Also, which ones aren't?


This is a pretty good introduction: http://www.gospel-herald.com/

The "Ten Truths" discusses key principles.

Of course, the best way would be to read their writings yourself. I'd suggest "Christ and His Righteousness" by Waggoner, and "The Consecrated Way to Perfection" by Jones. I'm quite sure you'd like the Jones book quite a lot.

Regarding if there are things Jones and Waggoner wrote which aren't in "Steps to Christ," of course! For one thing, how could there not be? They wrote thousands of pages, and Steps to Christ is a small book, written by a different author. Secondly, if Steps to Christ had everything we needed to know, Ellen White would have said to just read that. She never included herself with Jones and Waggoner in terms of the things she wrote regarding their brings a message from God for the purpose of preparing a people to stand in the Day of God. Indeed, she said that God gave different work for different ones, and that they had a gift which God had not given her. She said Waggoner could teach righteousness by faith better than she. She said she would be as a little child to receive all the light which God was sending.

In studying the 1890's, I'm amazed at all the light God was sending our way. I believe this is because God was preparing the way for Christ to come. I think we should take advantage of all the light God has sent, as best we can.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/29/09 07:16 PM

Here are the ten gospel truths:

Quote:
Gospel Truth #1
Christ has already accomplished something for every human being. He died the second death for "every man," and thus elected "all men" to be saved. In that sense, it is true that "He saved the world." Appreciating what Christ accomplished by His sacrifice, lukewarm Laodiceans will learn the meaning of faith, and how to glory in the cross.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #2
By His uplifted cross and on-going priestly ministry, Christ is drawing "all men" to repentance. His gracious love is so strong and persistent that the sinner must resist it in order to be lost.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #3
It follows that it is actually easy to be saved and hard to be lost if one understands and believes how good the Good News is. The only difficult thing is learning how to believe the gospel. Jesus taught this truth.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #4
Christ is a Good Shepherd who is seeking His lost sheep even though we have not sought Him. A misunderstanding of God's character causes us to think He is trying to hide from us. There is no parable of a lost sheep that must seek and find its Shepherd.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #5
In seeking us, Christ came all the way to where we are, taking upon Himself "the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Thus He is a Savior "nigh at hand, not afar off." He "is the Savior of all men," even "the chief of sinners." But sinners have the freedom to refuse Him and reject Him.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #6
The new covenant is God's one-way promise to write His law in our hearts, and to give us everlasting salvation as a free gift "in Christ." The old covenant is the vain promise of the people to obey, and "gives birth to bondage." The spiritual failures of many sincere people are the result of being taught old covenant ideas, especially in childhood and youth. The new covenant truth was an essential element of the 1888 message, and even today lifts a load of doubt and despair from many heavy hearts.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #7
Our Savior "condemned sin in the flesh," conquering the problem for the human race. He forever outlawed sin in the vast universe of God by defeating it in its last lair—our fallen, sinful human flesh. Because of Him, there is now no reason for any human being to go on living under the frightful "dominion" of sin. Sinful addictions lose their grip if one has "the faith of Jesus."

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #8
A higher motivation becomes realized in the close of time than has prevailed in the church in past ages—a concern for Christ that He receive His reward and find His "rest" in the final eradication of sin. All egocentric motivation based merely on fear of hell or hope of reward is less effective. The higher motivation is symbolized in the climax of Scripture—the Bride of Christ making herself "ready."

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #9
The Bible so clearly teaches that righteousness is by faith. Therefore the only element that God's people need in order to prepare for the second coming of Christ is genuine faith. The message the world needs to hear is the truth of righteousness by faith in the light of the cleansing of the sanctuary—"the third angel's message in verity." Faith is understood in its true biblical sense—a heart appreciation of the agape of Christ.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #10
The 1888 message is especially "precious" because it joins together the true biblical idea of justification by faith with the unique idea of the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary. This is a Bible truth that the world is waiting to discover. It forms the essential element of truth that will yet lighten the earth with the glory of a final, fully developed presentation of "the everlasting gospel" of Revelation 14 and 18.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Which of these are rejected in the 28 Beliefs? Which of these are absent in the SOP?
Posted By: Tom

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/30/09 04:24 AM

Look for yourself!

Regarding the SOP, she said that Waggoner could teach righteousness by faith better than she could, so whether the concepts are there or not may not be so important.

Here's another one to look at:

http://www.gospel-herald.com/wieland/1888re_ex/rx_appendix_b.htm
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/30/09 07:10 PM

Okay. I looked for myself. And, yes, they are all there. Not one is missing. Everything J&W wrote, which received the stamp of God's approval, is accurately reflected in the SDA's believe book. Also, all ten gospel truths include links to the SOP in support of them. The link you posted contains the following:

Quote:
22. The second coming is impossible unless Christ ceases to be our Substitute.

In one sense Jesus' substitution is eternal. We will never stop being redeemed. Our redemption is an eternal reality. We are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Our past sins are forever pardoned. His righteousness forever stands in the place of our past sins. It prevents the existence of a big gap in our life when our sins are forever blotted out.
Posted By: Tom

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/01/09 06:26 PM

Here's 22:

Quote:
22. Continued sinning is “condemned in the flesh” through Christ. Sin has become unnecessary in light of His gospel. Righteousness is by faith because faith works by love. Our difficulty is either ignorance of the gospel or unbelief. The second coming is impossible unless Christ ceases to be our Substitute.


I don't think it's a good idea to just take that last sentence without the context. Personally, I wouldn't have put it the way it was put here, as I think this is too liable to be misunderstood. I'd say, instead, that the Second Coming is impossible unless Christ ceases His priestly work in the Most Holy Place -- something like that.

You wrote:

Quote:
And, yes, they are all there. Not one is missing. Everything J&W wrote, which received the stamp of God's approval, is accurately reflected in the SDA's believe book. Also, all ten gospel truths include links to the SOP in support of them. The link you posted contains the following:


Here's #6:

Quote:
The new covenant is God's one-way promise to write His law in our hearts, and to give us everlasting salvation as a free gift "in Christ." The old covenant is the vain promise of the people to obey, and "gives birth to bondage." The spiritual failures of many sincere people are the result of being taught old covenant ideas, especially in childhood and youth. The new covenant truth was an essential element of the 1888 message, and even today lifts a load of doubt and despair from many heavy hearts.


Where do you see this in the "SDA's believe" book?

What about this one? (#5)

Quote:
In seeking us, Christ came all the way to where we are, taking upon Himself "the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Thus He is a Savior "nigh at hand, not afar off." He "is the Savior of all men," even "the chief of sinners." But sinners have the freedom to refuse Him and reject Him.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/02/09 12:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Tom
M: "The second coming is impossible unless Christ ceases to be our Substitute."

T: I'd say, instead, that the Second Coming is impossible unless Christ ceases His priestly work in the Most Holy Place -- something like that.

Why do you think the two ideas are synonymous?
Posted By: Tom

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/02/09 12:46 AM

In context, yes.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/02/09 12:46 AM

A lot is written about the covenant in the "SDA Believe" book. Here's a foot note:

Quote:
11) The New Testament associates the experience of Israel at Mount Sinai with the old covenant (Gal. 4:24, 25). At Sinai God renews His everlasting covenant of grace to His people who had been liberated (1 Chron. 16:14-17; Ps. 105:8-11; Gal. 3:15-17). God promises them, "If you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation" (Ex. 19:5, 6; cf. Gen. 17:7, 9, 19). The covenant was based on righteousness by faith (Rom. 10:6-8; Deut. 30:11-14) and the law was to be written in their heart (Deut. 6:4-6; 30:14).

The covenant of grace is always subject to perversion by the believers' turning it into a system of salvation by works. Paul used Abraham's failure to trust God—his depending on his own works to solve his problems—as an illustration of the old covenant (Genesis 16; 12:10-20; 20; Gal. 4:22-25). In fact the experience of righteousness by works has existed ever since sin entered this world and the everlasting covenant was broken (Hosea 6:7).

Throughout Israel's history the majority tried "to establish their own righteousness" through "the works of the law" (Rom. 9:30-10:4). They lived according to the letter, not according to the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:6). Trying to justify themselves by the law (Gal. 5:4), they lived under the condemnation of the law and are in bondage, not in freedom (Gal. 4:21-23). Thus they perverted the Sinai covenant. The book of Hebrews applies the first, or old, covenant to the history of Israel since Sinai and reveals its temporary nature. It shows that the Levitical priesthood was to be temporary, performing a symbolic function until the reality in Christ had arrived (Hebrews 9; 10). Sadly enough many failed to see that in themselves the ceremonies were worthless (Heb. 10:1). Adherence to this system of "shadows" when type had met antitype, shadow had met reality, distorted the true mission of Christ. Hence the strong language used to stress the superiority of the better, or new, covenant over Sinai.

The old covenant, therefore, can be described in negative and positive terms. Negatively, it refers to the people's perversion of God's everlasting covenant. Positively, it stands for the temporary earthly ministry designed by God to meet the emergency created by this human failure. See also White, Patriarchs and Prophets, pp. 370-73; White, "Our Work," Review and Herald, June 23, 1904, p. 8; White, "A Holy Purpose to Restore Jerusalem" Southern Watchman, March 1, 1904, p. 142; Hasel, Covenant in Blood (Mountain View, CA: Pacific Press, 1982); cf. Wallenkampf, Salvation Comes From the Lord (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald, 1983), pp. 84-90.


Regarding the human nature of Jesus, chapter 4 does a good job of describing it.
Posted By: Tom

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/02/09 02:36 AM

This seems a bit confused. It looks quite different from what Waggoner wrote, and point #6 from the Gospel truths. Do you not see how they're different? (that being said, it does have some nice thoughts).
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/02/09 08:08 PM

Did Waggoner say anything regarding the covenants and the human nature of Jesus that is missing in the "SDA's Believe" book? If so, is it one of the reasons Jesus' arrival is not more likely to happen than before?
Posted By: Tom

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/03/09 07:24 AM

What Waggoner wrote about the Covenants is not the same as what's in the SDA's Believe book. You can verify this for yourself by comparing what Waggoner wrote to what's in the book.

You can look here http://www.brooklawn.org/Books/GladTidings/GT04RedeemedfromtheCurse.htm under "The Covenants of Promise" and here http://www.brooklawn.org/Books/GladTidings/GT05TheAdoptionofSons.htm under "These are the Two Covenants" as well as "Mount Sinai and Mount Zion".

Regarding Jesus' arrival, we know from the SOP that through Jones and Waggoner God sent a message to prepare a people to stand in the day of God. For convenience of study, we break the message down into topics, but I think one should really consider the whole of the message in terms of the preparation for Christ's coming. I'm sure that Jones and Waggoner did not conceive of the message they were sharing in a broken apart fashion, but rather as a coherent message.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/04/09 07:51 AM

Tom, I don't see a huge, fundamental difference. Apparently you do. Do you think the points of truth you believe are missing in our message today is one of the reasons why Jesus hasn't returned yet? If so, please name them. Thank you.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/13/09 09:22 AM

Waggonner's book "The Glad Tidings" already has his Panentheism concepts embedded in it.
These Panentheism concepts constituted the "alpha of apostacy".

We need to be careful.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/14/09 01:56 AM

Dedication, is there any evidence to suggest Ellen warned us not to read "The Glad Tidings"?
Posted By: Tom

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/14/09 05:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Tom, I don't see a huge, fundamental difference. Apparently you do. Do you think the points of truth you believe are missing in our message today is one of the reasons why Jesus hasn't returned yet? If so, please name them. Thank you.


I don't think this is the right way of looking at this. Truth from heaven isn't like mathematics, that we can chop into different axioms or definitions or lemmas and say if you're missing this or that you can't make the proof you're trying to make.

What we know is that God sent us a message for the purpose of preparing a people for the coming of Christ through A. T. Jones and E. J. Waggoner, and that message was not accepted. As to what that message was, the best way to determine this is to read what the messengers said and wrote. There are a lot of things which have been preserved for us.

From Waggoner I'd suggest starting with "Christ And His Righteousness," which is material actually presented at the 1888 GC session, according to Froom. Also interesting is "The Gospel in Galatians," which discusses the law in Galatians, a disagreement which was going on at that time. Many today take the position of Butler, who Waggoner argued against, without realizing what they are doing. I found reading this pamphlet very helpful in understanding Galatians (and Romans too).

From Jones, I've recommended you look at "A Consecrated Way to Perfection," which I'm almost certain you would agree with almost completely, and would enjoy reading.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/14/09 06:24 AM

Tom, I cannot think of anything J&W wrote with the stamp of God's approval that we are not preaching today. I confess, however, the evidence suggests most SDA's are not living in harmony with it. Many seem to believe not even Jesus can empower us to "go and sin no more".
Posted By: Tom

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/15/09 01:46 AM

Who is "we"? I can think of a bunch of things. That Christ took sinful flesh is one, and there are a number of things that follow just from that. That Christ's death actually accomplished something for every human being, regardless of whether they accept Him or not is not something I hear being preached. Waggoner's teaching on the covenants I don't hear, except from people who have studied Waggoner. I've *never* heard this.

I suppose that's enough of a list to start with.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/15/09 06:28 AM

Ellen White clearly taught the truths you named above. That counts for "we".
Posted By: Tom

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/15/09 10:05 PM

You're saying by "we" you meant "Ellen White"? That's very confusing. Before you were quoting from a website, things not from Ellen White.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/16/09 07:29 PM

I wrote, "Tom, I cannot think of anything J&W wrote with the stamp of God's approval that we are not preaching today." People who preach what she wrote are preaching the things you listed above. Can you think of anything J&W wrote that "we" aren't preaching today? And, do you think it accounts for why Jesus hasn't returned yet?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/30/10 07:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Dedication, is there any evidence to suggest Ellen warned us not to read "The Glad Tidings"?


1901 Battle Creek General Conference

Waggonner preached a series of sermons.

Ellen White writes:
" During the General Conference of 1901 the Lord warned me against sentiments that were then held by Brethren Prescott and Waggoner. These sentiments have been as leaven put into meal. Many minds have received them. The ideas of some regarding a great experience supposed to be sanctification have been the alpha of a train of deception. Because of some overdrawn expressions frequently used by Brother E. J. Waggoner at the conference, I was led to speak words intended to counteract their influence. If ever there was a time when our brethren should blend in unity it is now. You are engaged in an important work in Washington. I am very anxious that the work in that place shall be carried forward exactly as the Lord would have it. But Satan is surely presenting some false theories which you must not receive. Elders Waggoner and Prescott are out of the way.--Letter 269, 1903, pp. 1, 2 (Dec. 14, 1903)
Posted By: dedication

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/30/10 07:21 AM

On the other hand, she wrote:


" I am much pleased to learn that Professor [W. W.] Prescott is giving the same lessons in his class to the students that Brother [E. J.] Waggoner has been giving. He is presenting the covenants. John thinks it is presented in a clear and convincing manner. {9MR 329.2}
Since I made the statement last Sabbath that the view of the covenants as it had been taught by Brother Waggoner was truth, it seems that great relief has come to many minds.--Letter 30, 1890, p. 2. (To W. C. White and wife, March 10, 1890.) {9MR 329.3}
Posted By: dedication

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/30/10 07:28 AM

So which is presented in the book "Glad Tidings"?

The truth presented in 1890,
or the strange sentiments of 1901 (where both Prescott and Waggonner had wandered in the intervening 11 years)

"Glad Tidings" was published in 1900.
Posted By: johannes

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/30/10 12:48 PM

"dedication", i think tragic events (time of trouble such as never was) in Zimbabwe, Rwanda and Burma, mean Jesus can come right now, as of tonight. i will look for my copy of "Glad Tidings," as you mention this book.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/30/10 07:12 PM

Dedication, the only thing that alarmed me in Glad Tidings was the inference the Son of God isn't as eternal as the Father, that He had a beginning sometime long ago. Are you aware of anything else?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 11/30/10 07:18 PM

Johannes, why do you believe trouble in the world indicates Jesus could return today? What would fulfill the prophecies relating to the mark of beast if Jesus returned today?
Posted By: johannes

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/01/10 06:30 AM

Yes Mountain Man, what do you think? please. Is one allowed to follow the command, Look up, lift up your heads for you redemption draweth nigh(?) My back-ground is heavy vehicle driver, so i'm listening to you. Will all prophecies be fulfilled in the USA? or perhaps some in Canada (or China)?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/01/10 08:10 PM

Originally Posted By: johannes
M: Johannes, why do you believe trouble in the world indicates Jesus could return today? What would fulfill the prophecies relating to the mark of beast if Jesus returned today?

J: Yes Mountain Man, what do you think? please. Is one allowed to follow the command, Look up, lift up your heads for you redemption draweth nigh(?) My back-ground is heavy vehicle driver, so i'm listening to you. Will all prophecies be fulfilled in the USA? or perhaps some in Canada (or China)?

Paul warned the first century Christians not to expect Jesus to return before the prophecies were fulfilled in their turn.

2 Thessalonians
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

The same thing holds true today. We cannot expect Jesus to return before the prophecies are fulfilled in their turn. The USA must first form an "image of the beast" (a church-state government). This she will do when she legislates and enforces the "mark of the beast". The rest of the world will follow suit. Everyone everywhere will decide for or against the mark at which point probation will close and the seven last plagues will be poured out. Then Jesus will arrive in the clouds of glory to take us home.

What do you think the "mark of the beast" is? And, how long do you think it will take for everyone everywhere to decide for or against it?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/01/10 08:14 PM

PS - "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." I believe we can claim this "when-then" promise when the world begins enforcing the "mark of the beast".
Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/01/10 09:20 PM

The forming of an image to the beast is in Revelation. Applying it to USA is an interpretation. If the image to the beast is formed in a way which sidesteps USA, many SDA will be deceived.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/02/10 07:33 PM

Thomas, what is "the beast"? And, what is "the image of the beast"? Also, what is "the mark of the beast"?

Do you agree with the interpretation recorded in the book The Great Controversy, authored by Ellen White?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? - 12/10/10 07:28 PM

Bump for Thomas.
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