Re: Structure in Prophetic Writings

James,
Revelation 12 seems to indicate that the "war in heaven" occurs AFTER the birth of the child. This, I admit, is based solely on the apparent chronological order of the chapter. If verse 7 leaps back to a point in time preceding vs. 1-6 there is nothing to indicated that, except possibly our preestablished assumption of the timeline.

Also, v. 12 (Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short." NIV) seems to indicate "rejoicing" for the people in heaven but "woe" to the people on earth.

And, v.13 (When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. NIV) when the Devil is cast to earth, he pursues the woman, which precipitates her fleeing and the "time, times, and half a time."

Traditionally, we have viewed the "war in heaven" to have occurred prior to the fall of man. Should this view be re-examined? I would appreciate if you could clarify your understanding.

This would necessitate a new thread, so as not to de-rail this thread.

The question is not so much about the "war in heaven" as about when was Satan cast out of heaven. SDA say he was cast out before the fall of man and have built a fortified edifice of an extra-biblical story around the idea. See Ellen White's Great Controversy, Chapter 1.

However, Rev. 12:10 says, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come ..." meaning that Calvary was a necessary precursor to the casting out of Satan from heaven. The battle on earth was going to trigger the battle in heaven. The victory on earth was going to seal the victory in heaven; and not the other way around.

It was only after his resurrection that Jesus Christ said, in Mat. 28, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations ..." echoing Rev. 12:10.

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verse 5) woman gave birth
6) woman fled
7) war arose
9) dragon cast out
12) woe to earth and those who dwell (not future tense), time is short
13) dragon pursued woman who "had given" birth
14) woman fled (repeat of 6? or further details of why she fled) Nourished 3.5 times (1260 days, which has been said to occur after the cross)

Issues were in heaven prior to earth (verse 4 before standing before the woman). But real war and casting down was at the cross. Otherwise, chapter 12 would be jumping back and forth multiple times not making sense.

So, just to be clear, (because I think this has significant implications,) Satan was in (or had access to) heaven, until Calvary.

Definitely not what SDA teaches, but seems to be supported by Rev. 12.

I thought somebody was going to raise verse 4a, "[the dragon's] tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth." But the "stars of heaven" there are not the angels, but those stars on the woman's head. It says the "woman [was] clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars." v.1

The 12 stars altogether are a symbol of Israel which was made up of 12 tribes. And that same dragon, with its 7 heads and 10 horns was responsible for the fall of the smaller part of the Israel, i.e. the Kingdom of Judah over which he had kings and governors installed according to his dictates. Now a new king arrived on the horizon, and the dragon, knowing the end and troubled, was determined to get rid of Him who was the Son of Man born to be King of the Jews, of the World, of the Universe!

The "casting down of a third of the stars by a tail" therefore is not about a pre-earthly-creation-heavenly drama, but the part of Israel known as the Kingdom of Judah, the kingdom that was cast down to the ground and made provincial by 4 great and mighty empires.

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There are official statements and then there are viewpoints from the pews.

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It seems that the average western mind is most comfortable in linear sequential presentations.
However, we need to be open to the possibility that the prophets didn't necessarily write in linear sequential form.

Sequential form usually moves from cause to effect.
But there are other literary structures in scripture, for example, one can also start with the effect, then present the cause.

Many have noticed chiastic structure in the Bible.
For example, the structure ABBA refers to two ideas (A and B) repeated in reverse order (B and A). Often, a chiasm includes another idea in the middle of the repetition: ABXBA.

Or there may be a focal point, like a mountain peak, and two streams moving in either direct from the focal point.

Parallel writing is very common in scripture as well. Points for comparison and contrast were often emphasized by repetition in parallel structures.

In symmetric parallels, the primary point of emphasis often comes at the middle of the passage. While a secondary point often comes at the beginning and end.

There are more interesting literary structures that the Bible writers used.
I'm mentioning them because we may be on the wrong track if we insist on a simple linear sequential structure for Revelation 12.

You have mislabeled the thread. This is NOT about the literary forms and devices of scripture, but about the time when Satan was cast out from heaven. Was it:

1. before the creation of man, as Ellen White contends1, or
2. after the events of Calvary, as implied by Rev. 12?

In support of the latter, the loud voice in heaven spoke of the dragon's accusations against the people of God before he was cast out of heaven. "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death." (Rev. 12:10-11)

It is obvious that the dragon's casting out was after Calvary. Note that the voice says, "NOW salvation," and "BECAUSE the accuser has been cast down." And again, "who accused THEM (who overcame the dragon by THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB)." Baiting and switching the topic to change the truth of those words is like holding up a flimsy door against a flood or hiding your nakedness behind transparent curtains.

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1 See; GC (1858 Ed.) Chap. 1; EW Chap. 35; PP Chap. 1

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When was the war in heaven?
Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
 
What happened at the time of the Cross?
Could one sin have been found in Christ, had He in one particular yielded to Satan to escape the terrible torture, the enemy of God and man would have triumphed. Christ bowed His head and died, but He held fast His faith and His submission to God. "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Revelation 12:10. {DA 761.1}
 
Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. {DA 761.2}

So there seem to be a variety of views on this point, and not everyone is united. It's almost like Satan fell in stages, first loosing his privileged position in heaven and then being cast out.

Isa. 14 and Eze. 28 both talk about Satan's fall, and Job mentions Satan coming before God as representative of this world. (Although I understand Job as a literary work exploring the meaning of suffering, rather than a factual/historical event.) So it is possible that he rebelled and was cast out of heaven with his angels at or near the time of creation, but he himself still had access to God/heaven until the cross.

The Bible is not specific on this point, but that seems to make the most sense to me.

As an aside, I (currently) reject any and all theologies that postulate Satan being a necessary part of God's creation. In a nutshell, without the fall of Satan there would have been no fall of man, hence no need for salvation. No sin, no atonement, no cross.

I'm sorry you see the thread as "mislabeled", yet it appears that topic you addressed does rest on how one views the structure of Revelation 12.

From what I understand, the question "When was Satan cast out", is not answered by an either/or answer as your suggest.

Since you referenced EGW, let me show you that she does not place the answer in that either/or position.
I see APL has already shared some good quotes on the matter.

Basically the casting down of Satan has three very decisive points in history, not just one.

1. Lucifer and his angels were removed from their home in heaven. They could no longer live in the presence of God.
Prior to creation, Lucifer (at that time a highly exalted and respected angel in heaven) started his deceptive campaign against God. It developed till war broke out -- each of the multi millions of angels had a choice they had to make. Some were strongly on Christ's side, others strongly on Lucifer's side, but there were also those who chose to stay with Christ, who were confused, they had sympathies with Lucifer.

Satan and his angels still had connections with heavenly beings, even though they were no longer residents of heaven.

2. At the cross all connections with heaven were ended.
Satan was fully exposed as "the devil"
"his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. {DA 761.2}

Satan was cast out -- fully restricted to this earth. Only sinful humanity was still believing his deceptions. Yet, even for them the evidence was available in Christ to overcome the devil and his devices. Salvation for those who took hold of the wonderful gift bestowed by the great sacrifice, was fully guaranteed.

3. Satan's final "casting down"
This is still future, the time is coming when -

Is. 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the one that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

For thousands of years this chief of conspiracy has palmed off falsehood for truth. But the time has now come when the rebellion is to be finally defeated, and the history and character of Satan disclosed. In his last great effort to dethrone Christ, destroy his people, and take possession of the city of God, the arch-deceiver has been fully unmasked. Those who have united with him see the total failure of his cause. Christ's followers and the loyal angels behold the full extent of his machinations against the government of God. He is the object of universal abhorrence.....Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. {GC88 669.3}

The structure in Revelation 12

The Conflict between Christ and His followers and the Satan and his followers

A. The early conflict between "woman" and dragon (vs. 1-5)
B. The middle ages conflict (vs, 6)
X The origin of the Conflict (vs. 7-9)
B. The middle conflict (vs. 10-16)
A. The later conflict between "woman" and dragon (vs.17)

The central point (placed in the middle) conflict arose in heaven, rebel angels and their leader rose up against the authority of God, but were overcome by faithful angels under their leader, JESUS CHRIST.

To be on Lucifer's team is to be on the loosing team. And like the angel's on Christ's side had the power to drive him out, so people standing with Christ will continue to prevail against him. It warns the readers that yes, there is a war, a dreadful war, there is an enemy, BUT those with Christ, can overcome the dragon.

Part A-1 Early Conflict-- on earth these fallen angels were encountered by God's people prior to Christ's incarnation -- their victory over the dragon was in the promises of the coming "child" who we understand to be Jesus Christ. The terrible fierceness of the war is fully illustrated by the venom of the dragon against Christ.

Part B-1 Middle Conflict.
When Christ returns to heaven the venom of the dragon is turned against the woman and she flees. What hope can she have against such a formidable foe?

Part X (Mid section)
Here we reach the mid point where the prophet shows the origin of the war before going back to describing the woman. He is assuring the church (the woman) Christ overcomes the dragon, He did back then, but NOW Christ has defeated him even more decisively and confirmed the covenant of salvation with His own blood!

Part B-2 Middle Conflict
Back to the persecuted woman of the Christian era. We, like the martyrs during that time, can be assured that there is no need to believe the dragon, Christ's blood has brought full guarantee that victory over the dragon will occur for all who trust in Christ, even though for many it meant the lose of their earthly lives. The dragon is successfully defeated as far as heaven is concerned. Those who believed overcame the dragon by the blood of the Lamb and their testimony.

Part A-2 Later conflict
Yet, the dragon is still at war, he knows he has only a short time left -- his wrath is building and he will make a last great war on the remnant of the woman.

• Rev. 12:9 says BOTH Satan and his angels were cast out at the same time, "he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Rev. 12:10 gives the reason as being because Christ, the Son of Man, had become our representative before God. "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come ..."
   
• Satan himself fell when he turned man against God, when he persuaded man that he, Satan, was their benefactor and not God. He told the woman in Eden, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Gen. 3:4-5) Later God would say, "the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil." (v.22)
  
  And because Satan did that, God said to him, "You are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field. On your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed. He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."
   
• HUMANITY became the stumbling block for him. His desire for man's worship and adoration messed him up. You can see it in his temptation of Jesus Christ, "All these things (the kingdoms of the world and their glory) I will give You if You will fall down and worship me." (Mat. 4:8-9) It was something he really, really wanted. And he succeeded with Adam and stole the kingdom for himself. But Christ won the kingdom for God so that after Calvary, as Christ was given "all authority in heaven and earth" by God in return, Satan ranted and raged until he lost and was cast out.
   
• In short, there was never any pre-creation-heavenly-drama as Ellen White contends1. Rather, Satan fell because he desired man's worship for himself and found a way to get it (Isa. 14, Ezek. 28). When Jesus Christ was given the kingdom of God because of His faithfulness to God, it was obvious that Satan, who wanted it for himself, had to go. And the rest, as they say, is history.
   
• Satan is like a man who looks across at his neighbour's beautiful and talented little children and indulges his admiration and desire for them, until one day he gives in and persuades them to turn against their own parents, moves in, makes a mess of their upbringing, spoiling them for his own benefit, and wreaks havoc in the house. And when the authorities come, the children, so accustomed to having their own way, refuse to countenance being taken away until they really begin to suffer.
   
• Satan was NOT Satan before Adam and Eve. The Bible says, "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made." (Gen. 3:1) And again, "Because you have done this, you are cursed ..."

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1 See; GC (1858 Ed.) Chap. 1; EW Chap. 35; PP Chap. 1

On the subject of Job, this is an idea I have about the passage starting as "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." (Job 6:6)

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God..." (1 John 3:2)
The term "sons of God" is at times clearly applied in the Bible to humans. There are other places where that or a very similar term probably refers to angels, but at least some of them are debatable. By understanding the above verse in Job as referring to humans, the scene might become this-

There's a regular church service, on Sabbath ("there was a day..."), and God, who "goeth by me, and I see Him not: He passeth on also, but I perceive Him not" (Job 9:11), is personally there without anyone knowing. Satan also comes and God points out Job sitting on a pew and asks "Hast thou considered My servant Job..."

Interesting thought, Josh, I've never thought of it that way.
The "sons of God" being believers meeting together on a Sabbath. God's invisible presence being with them (where two or three are gathered together He has promised to be with them)
Satan, the accuser of the brethren comes by, probably taunting God by pointing out some sins in some of the believers gathered there. God in turn points to Job, " Have you considered Job,...a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and abhors evil?"

Quite possible!!

The way I've usually understood it, comes from a text in Luke 3:38 where it gives a genealogy
Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God."
Adam, was the representative of this earth, a position Satan stole from him.
In DA 834 EGW states
"the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled."
Thus I've always seen this as all the representatives of created worlds meeting together {not necessarily in heaven] but a meeting with the Creator. Satan, claiming to represent this world, presents himself as well.

Bumping this one, as I look into what has been posted in this thread.

When we look at the structure in which things are written we see a pattern emerging. Understanding the structure helps us understand the message.

We looked at the structure of Revelation 12
in which there was a neat A-B-X-B-A pattern.

How about Revelation 13:1-10
And how does it put things in an order?

A The beast introduced -- brief outline of it's existence.
3:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

B. First phase of the beast before wound.
13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;

X The mid point
and power was given unto him to continue forty two months.
But remember -- we've already been told he'd come back.

B2 Second phase of the beast after the wound.
Notice how it parallels with the first phase-- only everything is magnified!

13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blasphemed his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

A2 . The end of the beast
13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.