Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference?

In todays world, the average person will say that in reading different versions of the Bible it really seems no different, and it appears that they say the same thing in their eyes. The thing is, that the NIV claims it is a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence', but you have to ask, whose thoughts. That is why they may seem to say much the same thing and yet, just a few changes or even words can make a big difference.

Here is one that definitely makes a difference and its done in Gods Ten Commandments:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.

Do you see what they did. Its very subtle, but if you look "the Sabbath" is changed to "a Sabbath". This would broaden the scope of the command to cover ALL sabbaths including 'ceremonial' ones and not just the one made for man on the seventh day, and effectively create confusion within the Bible itself, for God did not create the world in seven days prior to each of the ceremonial sabbaths.

The "ceremonial law" was dealing with forms of worshipping God and with ritual cleanness and judicial precepts came into existence only with the Law of Moses and were only temporary. So the "ceremonial sabbaths" or high sabbaths", were seven annual biblical festivals or feast days, such as Passover which reminded the people of how God took care of them or His blessing to them.

So its a big difference from "the Sabbath" to "a Sabbath". but it would escape most readers, and the subterfuge remain hidden..

Here is a great explanation of the ceremonial sabbaths in the SOP...

"Ceremonial Sabbaths
Leviticus 23:7, 8, 21, 24, 25, 27, 32, 39. There are seven ceremonial Sabbaths as follows:- 1. 16th of Abib; 2. 23rd of Abib; 3. Pentecost; 4. 1st of the 7th month; 5. 10th of the 7th month; 6. 15th of the 7th month; 7. 22nd of the 7th month. These were annual Sabbaths, coming only once a year. As they always came on the same day of the month, they would come only occasionally on the 7th day of the week.

? Colossians 2:16, 17. These Sabbaths were all shadows of things to come.

? Hebrews 9:8-11. The types, or shadowy service, ceased at the cross. The Desire of Ages, 774.

? Matthew 27:50-51. At the death of Christ God rent the vail of the temple, thus showing that the shadowy service had ended.

? Hebrews 9:10; Romans 14:1-6; Colossians 2:16. All of these ceremonial Sabbaths were connected with the annual feast days. On the Passover Sabbath bitter herbs were mingled with the feast. The day of atonement was a fast day; the others were feast days.

? Leviticus 23:38. These annual Sabbaths were separate and distinct from the Sabbath of the Lord.

? Exodus 20:10. The seventh day of the week is the Sabbath of the Lord.

? Exodus 20:8-11. ?Meats and drinks? not connected with the weekly Sabbath.

? Exodus 20:11. Seventh-day Sabbath a memorial of creation. The Desire of Ages, 289.

? Isaiah 66:22, 23. As long as the world stands the memorial of creation will be celebrated. "

https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/978.1187

I understand what you are saying is a difference between "a Sabbath" and "the sabbath". One is capitalized, one is not, one refers to "a", the other refers to "the". "A" seventh day Sabbath vs. "the" ceremonial sabbath. Seems a little contradictory opposed and conflicting opposites. But what is the correct rendering? Other than an opinion of what it should be, can you show which is the correct English article to be used?

I believe accurate translation is more important than one supporting an opinion of what is proper. Can you show what is accurate?

An even bigger difference is in the phrase:
Sabbath OF the Lord
Sabbath TO the Lord
The first tells us the Sabbath is the Lord's -- it's something he has given to us in which we are to enter into HIS Sabbath rest and find rest in Him
The second suggests the sabbath is something we do to or for the Lord. It's our works which we must render

As we have just studied Hebrews 3 and 4 in our Sabbath School lessons, our weekly Sabbath rest from the works of life, is to renew our understanding of the spiritual rest which we can find only in our Savior, Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath day!

The article "the" is a definite article. In Hebrew they add a "hey" to the noun if it needs a definite article. From my very limited ability to read Hebrew it appears to have the "hey"
Thus "THE Sabbath" would be correct.

We can also look at the Bible's treatment of the seventh day Sabbath -- is the Seventh day Sabbath a definite Day or is it just one honored day among many?
If it is a specific day -- "THE Sabbath" is correct, if it just merges into a lot of roving honored days, then "A sabbath" would be acceptable.

I fully see scripture saying it is a specific, definite day not just "a day". It is THE Sabbath!
The fourth commandment ties it with creation, and at creation God sanctified one specific day out of the weekly cycle, the seventh, as a day of rest. This seventh day followed six evening and morning days. At Sinai, He again sanctified this same seventh day as His holy day, tying it to creation.

And yet many Adventist see no issue when they read these new versions with " dynamic equivalence" or worse it is used in the Sabbath School lesson...

Why did the translators put lower case on "sabbath"?

Can you give us a few examples?

yep. Post #194663

It even reads the same way in the KJV that is supposed to be the most reliable English translation of them all according to many people.

Perhaps they didn't use capitals for the word "sabbath" back then in the old English language?

Yes, you're right. The word "sabbath" is lowercase in KJV for some reason.

But in searching, look what I found for "a sabbath":

Ex 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
Ex 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Am I not correct that this is referring to the 7th day Sabbath? It is the KJV.
So while Dedication may have a point, it would be interesting for her to analyze the above verses in the same manner.

However, me thinks there is too much ado regarding articles and whatnot versus the meaning of the passage. Have you ever, when someone is asking to do something on a certain date, you look at the calendar and say, no, that is, or falls on, a Sabbath?

Seems to me that a well rounded reading from many versions, and verses, asking the Holy Spirit to guide in the meaning of what you are reading, "to study the Scriptures as in line upon line and precept upon precept, here a little, there a little" is a more reasonable path to follow than those attempting to find some error with the Holy Scriptures and casting doubt upon them to others.

I agree with the studying of the Scriptures, line upon line and precept upon precept.

God's Word remains God's Word despite what the devil through man has done to the various versions and translations.

The original didn't have lower or upper case distinction. Thus translations add or leave it off according to their understanding.

What is the difference between thought and word translations and using Equivalence words to try and get the meaning across. (words or phrases that basically mean the same thing but sound clearer)

Word translations try to translate the verse word for word which may sound pretty awkward.

Equivalence translation tries to translate the meaning the words convey, by finding Equivalent words or phrases to try and get the meaning across. (words or phrases that basically mean the same thing but sound clearer) which sometimes takes on the meaning the translators see in the verse which may be different from what the author actually meant.

But translating isn't easy.

For example,

Matt. 8:29 And, behold, they (evil spirits) cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? KJV

The phrase translated as "What have we to do with thee? KJV

Translators struggle to translate that phrase, do they translate word for word? Or use a more natural phrasing?

Literally plugging in an English word for a Greek word, in that phrase would read:

"What to me and to you"

Other translations seek to convey the question with more equivalent expressions attempting to bring out the meaning more cleanly
like:
"What to us and to Thee, Jesus (Wycliff Bible)
?What do we have in common??
?What business do we have with each other??? NAS

Some wander a bit further from word for word.

"?What hast Thou to do with us, Thou Son of God? WNT
"What do we have to do with you, Jesus, WEB
?What do you want with us, Son of God? NIV
?Why are you interfering with us, Son of God? NLT?

Probably no major problems in these difference in this verse for the average readers.
But yet there is also an adding onto the sentence of things not in the original text.

Its when they add a sentence or delete one that it starts to get tricky, as they can distort the passage and meaning or change it to a current way of thinking, much as they did inserting " Easter" for "Passover".

I don't believe that your interpretation of what Rick H said is accurate. He didn't say "the ceremonial Sabbath" therefore your entire premise for questioning his point of view is faulty

The question is not whether or not the fourth commandment is a ceremonial sabbath or not. All the contributors believe the fourth commandment is speaking about the 7th day Sabbath? a specific day not just any day in seven. The discussion is about bible translations that appear to make that distinction more fuzzy. How exactly did the original word it?

For me there?s enough evidence in the fourth commandment to understand it is referring to the definite 7th day Sabbath not just to any 7th day. Most scholars agree. So even if we read the 7th day is ?a? Sabbath or ?the? Sabbath still points to the day we call Saturday.

The sad thing is that many Christians read it as simply any day (Sunday being their choice) so that?s why the concern when ?a? is written instead of ? the? sabbath

I don't disagree with you, but not all feasts happened on the Sabbath. When the Sabbath and a feast day coincided it was called a high Sabbath.

Agree the seventh day sabbath is not a ceremonial sabbath. It is the seventh day blessed and sanctified at creation Geneses 2.2-3 Ceremonial sabbaths were annual sabbaths determined by the new moon which could fall on any day of the week. There are people who try to place the creation sabbath with those sabbaths for one of two reasons.
1, To elevate ceremonial sabbaths to the same obligatory level as the creation sabbath or
2. To remove the seventh day sabbath as being just a shadow and having no more binding claims in the gospel dispensation

Both reasons to lump the creation Sabbath with the ceremonial sabbaths are not correct. The seventh day sabbath is unique, inscribed on the first tablet of Gods law. ( love the lord your God with all you heart)

Yes, what Dedication said. We were talking about versions. And whether it's capitalization or articles preceding a word, does not validate a translation as the only one. See if I'm not correct, that Rick's measuring rod to determine whether a version is "valid" or not is whether it is the KJV.

I tend to agree with you. Doug Batchelor preaches all his prophecy seminars out of the NKJV. I used to be a KJV only guy but no more. One of the reasons I changed my mind is that Ellen White quotes the RV and the ARV throughout her writings.