Does it really matter what we wear to church?
Is there any counsel on this in both the Bible and the SOP?
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In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl Fawcett :)
quote:
From the sacredness which was attached to the earthly sanctuary, Christians may learn how they should regard the place where the Lord meets with His people....Nothing that is sacred, nothing that pertains to the worship of God, should be treated with carelessness or indifference. (5T 491:1,2).Because of the irreverence in attitude, dress, and deportment, and lack of a worshipful frame of mind, God has often turned His face away from those assembled for His worship. (5T 499:0).
Upon this holy day, our clothing should signify that we understand the sacredness of the Sabbath and the house of worship where we meet with God. Just as the Israelites had been given instruction on how to ready themselves and their clothing before meeting with God at Sinai, so we also have been given instruction as to how we shall appear in the house of the Lord.
Many need instruction as to how they should appear in the assembly for worship on the Sabbath. They are not to enter the presence of God in the common clothing worn during the week. All should have a special Sabbath suit, to be worn when attending service in God's house. While we should not conform to worldly fashions, we are not to be indifferent in regard to our outward appearance. We are to be neat and trim, though without adornment. The children of God should be pure within and without. (6T 355:2).
I am often pained as I enter the house where God is worshipped, to see the untidy dress of both men and women. If the heart and character were indicated by the outward apparel, then certainly nothing could be heavenly about them. They have no true idea of the order, the neatness, and the refined deportment that God requires of all who come into His presence to worship Him. What impressions do these things give to unbelievers and to the youth, who are keen to discern and to draw their conclusions? (5T 498:2).
Linda
[Daryl, I have over 3 pages of material on this particular subject of Sabbath dress. How much do you want? (and HTML is off)]
[This message has been edited by Linda Sutton (edited July 26, 2000).]
The first best worship clothes are the white garments Jesus said buy from Him, the second set ought be a good set of clothes reserved for sacred use. They may not be grand, but combined with the white raiment from Jesus they make Heaven's wedding garment.
Tastefully and descretely get someone else the really good clothes (from the skin out to the acessories). The kind of clothes they need but can not get for them selves and each worship you will wear the blessing of their being presented to God befitting coming into His presence. God will know, they will know, you will know. Help them do likewise for someone else in time.
Sr White gave to a once wealthy lady the very clothes that she had saved to get for herself. They were of high quality and would not shame the woman to receive them.
The really upscale expensive clothes you might not be able to afford after doing that, but you will elevate your fellow beliver who could not afford the proper clothes for worship.
If your clothes would not shame you in God's presence by their lack nor style nor abundance, but would feel appropriate with God looking at these clothes; that ought be a good start.
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Edward F. Sutton
HTML is now on. (Another slip up on my part )
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In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl Fawcett :)
We may have forgotten what the Lord is expecting of us in this area, so I thought it would be good to start a topic on it.
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In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl Fawcett :)
Going to church isn't supposed to be a fashion show.
I wear the best I have, and if anyone has a problem with it, they can buy me something different.
My heart is right with my God, and He sees me, not my clothes.
By the way, I wash them and myself before I wear them to worship.
Gerry b.
Actually, as I ponder this, I may very well be stepping on my own toes. 
I am just looking at this as a principle and feeling that from looking around it seems that many are notliving up to this principle more out of ignorance than on purpose.
What we need to do is back-track and examine the quotes posted earlier and determine what those quotes are really telling us today.
One thing I feel is proper worship in what we wear is whether or not we are wearing our best to church on Sabbath.
If the best I have to wear and can afford to wear is a pair of jeans and a jean shirt and jacket, then I am wearing my best to church on Sabbath. If, however, I have something better to wear and I simply choose not to wear it, then.......
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In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl Fawcett
[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited July 27, 2000).]
quote:
I am often pained as I enter the house where God is worshipped, to see the untidy dress of both men and women. If the heart and character were indicated by the outward apparel, then certainly nothing could be heavenly about them. They have no true idea of the order, the neatness, and the refined deportment that God requires of all who come into His presence to worship Him. What impressions do these things give to unbelievers and to the youth, who are keen to discern and to draw their conclusions? (5T 498:2).Their influence disgusts unbelievers. Better if they had ever remained outside the ranks of God's loyal people. The house of God is dishonored by such professors. All who meet upon the Sabbath to worship God should, if possible, have a neat, well-fitting, comely suit to wear in the house of worship. It is a dishonor to the Sabbath, and to God and his house, for those who profess that the Sabbath is the holy of the Lord, and honorable, to wear the same clothing upon the Sabbath that they have worn through the week while laboring upon their farms, when they can obtain other. (2SM 474:2).
There is a class of sisters who think that they are carrying out the principle of non-conformity to the world by wearing an ordinary sunbonnet, and the same dress worn by them through the week, upon the Sabbath, to appear in the assembly of the saints to engage in the worship of God. And some men who profess to be Christians view the matter of dress in the same light. They assemble with God's people upon the Sabbath, with their clothing dusty, and soiled, and even with gaping rents in them, and placed upon their persons in a slovenly manner. This class, if they had an engagement to meet a friend honored by the world, and they wished to be especially favored by him, would exert themselves to appear in his presence with the best apparel that could be obtained; for this friend would feel insulted were they to come into his presence with hair uncombed, and garments uncleanly, and in disorder. Yet these persons think that it is no matter in what dress they appear, or what is the condition of their persons, when they meet upon the Sabbath to worship the great God. They assemble in his house, which is as the audience-chamber of the Most High, where heavenly angels are in attendance, with but little respect, or reverence, as their persons and clothing indicate. Their whole appearance typifies the character of such men and women. (2SM 475:1).
Linda
quote:
If there are worthy persons who, with their whole heart would honor the Lord of the Sabbath, and the worship of God, and who cannot obtain a change of clothing, let those who are able, donate to such a Sabbath suit, that they may appear in the house of God with cleanly, fitting apparel. (2SM 474-5).
Sometimes these people simply won't come to church at all or come infrequently. James tells us why;
quote:
For if there come into your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; and ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgement seats? (James 2:2-6).
It is not up to us to judge others' clothing. No one has appointed us to sit in church on Sabbath morning and size up what everyone is wearing. There is to be instruction to the congregation about proper dress, but that is different than sizing up what our fellow church goers are wearing. I'll post more on that later.
Linda
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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.
quote:
Many will not attend the service of God upon the Sabbath because their dress would appear so unlike that of their Christian sisters in style and adornment. Will my sisters consider these things as they are, and will they fully realize the weight of their influence upon others? By walking in a forbidden path themselves, they lead others in the same way of disobedience and backsliding. Christian simplicity is sacrificed to outward display. My sisters, how shall we change this? How shall we recover ourselves from the snare of Satan and break the chains that have bound us in slavery to fashion? How shall we recover wasted opportunities? how bring our powers into healthful, vigorous action? There is only one way, and that is to make the Bible our rule of life. All should work earnestly to do good to others, watch unto prayer, take up the long-neglected cross, and heed the warnings and injunctions of Him who has said: "Whosoever will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me."My Christian sisters, face the mirror, the law of God, and test your course of action by the first four commandments. These explicitly define your duty to God. He claims the undivided affections; and anything which tends to absorb the mind and divert it from God assumes the form of an idol. The true and living God is crowded out of the thoughts and heart, and the soul-temple is defiled by the worship of other gods before the Lord. "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me," says the commandment. Let us search the heart, compare the life and character with the statutes and precepts of Jehovah, and then seek diligently to correct our errors. (4T 631-2).
A greater uniformity in dress would be pleasing to God. Those who expend means on costly apparel and extra fixings, can by a little self-denial exemplify pure religion, by simplicity of clothing, and then use the means they have usually expended needlessly in aiding some poor brother or sister, whom God loves, to obtain neat and modest apparel. (2SM 475:0).
All should be taught to be neat, clean, and orderly in their dress, but not to indulge in that external adorning which is wholly inappropriate for the sanctuary. There should be no display of the apparel; for this encourages irreverence. The attention of the people is often called to this or that fine article of dress, and thus thoughts are intruded that should have no place in the hearts of the worshipers. God is to be the subject of thought, the object of worship; and anything that attracts the mind from the solemn, sacred service is an offense to Him. The parading of bows and ribbons, ruffles and feathers, and gold and silver ornaments is a species of idolatry and is wholly inappropriate for the sacred service of God, where the eye of every worshiper should be single to His glory. All matters of dress should be strictly guarded, following closely the Bible rule. Fashion has been the goddess who has ruled the outside world, and she often insinuates herself into the church. The church should make the word of God her standard, and parents should think intelligently upon this subject. When they see their children inclined to follow worldly fashions, they should, like Abraham, resolutely command their households after them. Instead of uniting them with the world, connect them with God. Let none dishonor God's sanctuary by their showy apparel. God and angels are there. (5T 499:1).
The house of God is profaned by the dress of professedly Christian women of today. A fantastic dress, a display of gold chains and gaudy laces, is a certain indication of a weak head and a proud heart. (RH 3/20/1958).
Linda
quote:
See that all the clothing is in readiness and that all the cooking is done. Let the boots be blacked and the baths taken. It is possible to do this. If you make it a rule you can do it. The Sabbath is not to be given to the repairing of garments, to the cooking of food, to pleasure seeking, or to any other worldly employment. (6T 355:3).When we arise to prepare for church on Sabbath morning our thoughts do not need to be on our dress; but upon holy and sacred things. When everything has been made ready the day before, our minds are free to receive God's Sabbath blessing. What we wear on the Sabbath, as well as what we say and do, may decide whether we are in a reverent attitude and thereby ready to receive the blessings God has in store.
Especially have I been shown that those who profess truth should have a special care to appear before God upon the Sabbath in a manner which would show that we respect the Creator who has sanctified and placed special honors upon the day. All who have any regard for the Sabbath should be cleanly in person, neat and orderly in dress; for they are to appear before the jealous God, who is offended at uncleanness and disorder, and who marks every token of disrespect. (1T 275:2).
Christians are elevated in their conversation; and although they believe it to be sin to condescend to foolish flattery, they are courteous, kind, and benevolent. Their words are those of sincerity and truth. They are faithful in their deal with their brethren and with the world. In their dress they avoid superfluity and display; but their clothing will be neat, not gaudy, modest, and arranged upon the person with order and taste. Special care will be taken to dress in a manner that will show a sacred regard for the holy Sabbath and the worship of God. (MYP 349:2).
Dress should not consume large amounts of time and energy. There is a work to do for ourselves and for God.
quote:
Sisters, we may do a noble work for God if we will. Woman does not know her power. God did not intend that her capabilities should be all absorbed in questioning: What shall I eat? what shall I drink? and wherewithal shall I be clothed? There is a higher purpose for woman, a grander destiny. She should develop and cultivate her powers, for God can employ them in the great work of saving souls from eternal ruin. (4T 642:2).O! let me stand on the platform of eternal truth. Give me immortal worth. Let me grasp the golden chain that is let down from heaven to earth, and let it draw me up to God and glory. This is my ambition; this is my aim. If others have no higher object than dress, if they can delight in outward display and satisfy their souls with bows and ribbons and fantastic things, let them enjoy these. But let me have the inward adorning. Let me be clothed with that meek and quiet spirit which is in the sight of God of great price. And I recommend it to you, young gentlemen and ladies, for it is more precious in His sight than the gold of Ophir. It is this which makes a man more precious than fine gold, even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. My sisters, and you young people, it will make you more precious in the sight of Heaven than fine gold, yea, than the golden wedge of Ophir. I recommend to you Jesus, my blessed Saviour. I adore Him; I magnify Him. Oh, that I had an immortal tongue, that I could praise Him as I desire! that I could stand before the assembled universe and speak in praise of His matchless charms! (2T 593:1).
[This message has been edited by Linda Sutton (edited July 30, 2000).]
Some habits die slow.
I agree, our appearence should be neat, clean, orderly and simple.
I feel like I'm in a fashion show at some churches I go to, and it is a bit embarassing to be wearing something rthat appears to cause some to look down their long noses.
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Is what you're living for worth Christ dying for?
Gerry B.
quote:
Our ministers and their wives should be an example in plainness of dress; they should dress neatly, comfortably, wearing good material, but avoiding anything like extravagance and trimmings, even if not expensive; for these things tell to our disadvantage. We should educate the youth to simplicity of dress, plainness with neatness. Let the extra trimmings be left out, even though the cost be but a trifle. (TM 180:2).
When a minister stands in the pulpit, when he visits from house to house, when he gives Bible studies, or visits the sick, his clothing should be such as to cause others to have respect for his office. "Carefulness in dress is an important consideration. The minister should be clothed in a manner befitting the dignity of his position." (GW 173:1). Precise details from the pen of Sister White tell us how the minister should appear.
quote:
Black or dark material is more becoming to a minister in the desk and will make a better impression upon the people than would be made by a combination of two or three different colors in his apparel. (2T 610).The dress of some has been untidy. Not only has there been a lack of taste and order in arranging the dress in a becoming manner upon the person, and in having the color suitable and becoming for a minister of Christ, but the apparel of some has been even slovenly. Some ministers wear a vest of a light color, while their pants are dark, or a dark vest and light pants, with no taste or orderly arrangement of the dress upon the person when they come before the people. (2T 610).
Ministers sometimes stand in the desk with their hair in disorder, looking as if it had been untouched by comb and brush for a week. God is dishonored when those who engage in His sacred service are so neglectful of their appearance. (2T 613).
Some who minister in sacred things so arrange their dress upon their persons that, to some extent at least, it destroys the influence of their labor. There is an apparent lack of taste in color and neatness of fit. (2T 614).
In some cases not only has there been a lack of taste and of orderly arrangement in the dress, but the clothing has been untidy and slovenly. (GW 173:1).
His dress should be in harmony with the character of the work he is doing. Let ministers and teachers strive to reach the standard set forth in the Scriptures. Let them not neglect the little things, which are often looked upon as of no moment. Neglect of little things often leads to neglect of larger responsibilities. (GW 145:1)
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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda
Hon. You double posted I deleted the redundent post. Hubby (Ed)
[This message has been edited by Edward F. Sutton (edited August 01, 2000).]
quote:
A minister who is negligent in his apparel often wounds those of good taste and refined sensibilities. Those who are faulty in this respect should correct their errors and be more circumspect. The loss of some souls at last will be traced to the untidiness of the minister. The first appearance affected the people unfavorably because they could not in any way link his appearance with the truths he presented. His dress was against him; and the impression given was that the people whom he represented were a careless set who cared nothing about their dress, and his hearers did not want anything to do with such a class of people. (2T 613:1).From the light I have had, the ministry is a sacred and exalted office, and those who accept this position should have Christ in their hearts and manifest an earnest desire to represent Him worthily before the people in all their acts, in their dress, in their speaking, and even in their manner of speaking. (2T 615:1).
Ministers, like colporteurs, need to dress in a conservative manner, not with not in a flamboyant and ritzy manner. Bright, loud colors and large prints are as unbecoming on a man, and especially a minister in the pulpit, as they are on the women. Even the pastel sport coats that are so popular are not in harmony with the Spirit of Prophecy's counsel to the ministers to wear dark clothing. Little counsel is given in respect to the clothing worn by the minister when he is not actively performing his duties in and out of the pulpit, but, as for all others, the garments should be modest, neat, and appropriate for the occasion.
quote:
Ministers should possess refinement. They should discard all uncouth manners, attitudes, and gestures, and should encourage in themselves humble dignity of their position. They should be clothed in a manner befitting the dignity of their position. (1T 648:2).
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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda
quote:
Fashion is deteriorating the intellect and eating out the spirituality of our people. Obedience to fashion is pervading our Seventh-day Adventist churches and is doing more than any other power to separate our people from God. I have been shown that our church rules are very deficient. All exhibitions of pride in dress, which is forbidden in the word of God, should be sufficient reason for church discipline. If there is a continuance, in face of warnings and appeals and entreaties, to still follow the perverse will, it may be regarded as proof that the heart is in no way assimilated to Christ. Self, and only self, is the object of adoration, and one such professed Christian will lead many away from God.There is a terrible sin upon us as a people, that we have permitted our church members to dress in a manner inconsistent with their faith. We must arise at once and close the door against the allurements of fashion. Unless we do this, our churches will be demoralized. (4T 647-8).
In the minds of many there are no more sacred thoughts connected with the house of God than with the most common place. Some will enter the place of worship with their hats on, in soiled, dirty clothes. Such do not realize that they are to meet with God and holy angels. There should be a radical change in this matter all through our churches. Ministers themselves need to elevate their ideas, to have finer susceptibilities in regard to it. It is a feature of the work that has been sadly neglected. (5T 498-9).
There should be no carelessness in dress. Teach the young converts that dress is a talent. For Christ's sake, whose property we are, we should seek to make the best of our appearance. (6MR 55:1 emphasis supplied).
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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda
Does gold and scarlet "robes a-flowing" have any place in an Adventist pulpit?
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"He Restoreth My Soul"
Pastor Andrew
He will need a crosier, miter, and Bernenni columned alter to do the job right.
Tell him get off the fence, go one way or the other. Do it right or not at all.
If he's going to put on a show don't be rinky dink, go all out & hire Industrial Light and Magic & George Lucas as consultant. Copy Imax and rock their world .
If He's going to follow Jesus as an under-shepherd instead of an overlord, also go all out.
Walk & dress & live in the manner of the teachings that come from Jesus in the Bible & SOP . Oh yes shock the congregation by calling sin, sin and call for revival & reformation.
Get deep into practical Godliness and doctrines for the judgement hour; and teach from the pulpit & in the homes how to unify and win souls with and for Jesus. Teach the local Church how & why to promulgate Gospel order both to cleanse and nurture and protect.
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Edward F. Sutton
quote:
Originally posted by Gerry Buck:
I wear the best I have, and if anyone has a problem with it, they can buy me something different.
I just re-read Brother Gerry's post and want say that I believe the Lord is happy over the fact that Brother Gerry is wearing the best he has. That is all the Lord expects and accepts of us.
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In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl Fawcett :)
Why do we question a minister's robes and not the choir robes?
A robe is a robe, is it not?
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In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl Fawcett :)
A robed protestant in the pulpit, ought to have a robe, a demeanor, a message that is discidedly Biblical & not papal. A shepherd/sanctuary priest/Bible character's robe(s) would send a different message.
That might be a good added thread . What do clothes & robes stand for ?
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Edward F. Sutton
If it is to set someone above another, it would be wrong, but we wear a robe to be baptized, is that the same thing?
I have become used to seeing a speaker dressed like the rest of the congregation, and to see one in a garish robe would not 'feel' right.
Need more input, I guess.
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Is what you're living for worth Christ dying for?
Gerry B.
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In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl Fawcett :)
Robes on those standing in the pulpit always reminds me of this quote from Great Controversy:
quote:
About this time there arrived in Prague two strangers from England, men of learning, who had received the light and had come to spread it in this distant land. Beginning with an open attack on the pope's supremacy, they were soon silenced by the authorities; but being unwilling to relinquish their purpose, they had recourse to other measures. Being artists as well as preachers, they proceeded to exercise their skill. In a place open to the public they drew two pictures. One represented the entrance of Christ into Jerusalem, "meek, and sitting upon an ass" (Matthew 21:5), and followed by His disciples in travel-worn garments and with naked feet. The other picture portrayed a pontifical procession--the pope arrayed in his rich robes and triple crown, mounted upon a horse magnificently adorned, preceded by trumpeters and followed by cardinals and prelates in dazzling array. {GC 99.3}
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________________________
Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda
quote:
When a church has been raised up and left uninstructed on these points, the minister has neglected his duty and will have to give an account to God for the impressions he allowed to prevail. Unless correct ideas of true worship and true reverence are impressed upon the people, there will be a growing tendency to place the sacred and eternal on a level with common things, and those professing the truth will be an offense to God and a disgrace to religion. They can never, with their uncultivated ideas, appreciate a pure and holy heaven, and be prepared to join with the worshipers in the heavenly courts above, where all is purity and perfection, where every being has perfect reverence for God and His holiness. (5T 500:1).Those who are shepherds of the flock should impress upon the people the importance of acting upon right principles in eating, drinking, and dressing. They should warn the people to forsake every practice, restrain every appetite, that endangers health and life. (6MR 66:2).
One of the points upon which those newly come to the faith will need instruction is the subject of dress. Let the new converts be faithfully dealt with. Are they vain in dress? Do they cherish pride of heart? The idolatry of dress is a moral disease. It must not be taken over into the new life. In most cases, submission to the gospel requirements will demand a decided change in the dress.
There should be no carelessness in dress. For Christ's sake, whose witnesses we are, we should seek to make the best of our appearance. In the tabernacle service, God specified every detail concerning the garments of those who ministered before Him. Thus we are taught that He has a preference in regard to the dress of those who serve Him. Very specific were the directions given in regard to Aaron's robes, for his dress was symbolic. So the dress of Christ's followers should be symbolic. In all things we are to be representatives of Him. Our appearance in every respect should be characterized by neatness, modesty, and purity. But the word of God gives no sanction to the making of changes in apparel merely for the sake of fashion, that we may appear like the world. Christians are not to decorate the person with costly array or expensive ornaments.
The words of Scripture in regard to dress should be carefully considered. We need to understand that which the Lord of heaven appreciates in even the dressing of the body. All who are in earnest in seeking for the grace of Christ will heed the precious words of instruction inspired by God. Even the style of the apparel will express the truth of the gospel. (6T 96:1,2,3).
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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda
quote:
The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. Faithful, christian men and women should have an intense interest to bring the convicted soul to a correct knowledge of righteousness in Christ Jesus. If any have allowed the desire for pleasure or the love of dress to become supreme, so that any portion of their mind, soul, and strength is devoted to selfish indulgences, the faithful believers should watch for these souls as they that must give an account. They must not neglect the faithful, tender, loving instruction so essential to the young converts, that there may be no half-hearted work. (Ev 268).
Please note that it states "tender, loving instruction." Babies drink milk. They don't eat meat until they have grown some teeth. Most new converts are unlikely to be ready for all of the dress reform message at once. This is one time to remember, especially, that concerning the health portion of dress reform, it is of minor concern, compared to temperance and diet. Many may have difficulty with just dressing simply, plainly and modestly and removing their jewelry. They may not be ready yet to give up blue jeans and sweatsuits. But a positive Christian example will be noticed.
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"We are." said the inspired apostle, "made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men." All heaven is marking the daily influence which the professed followers of Christ exert upon the world. My sisters, your dress is telling either in favor of Christ and sacred truth or in favor of the world. Which is it? Remember we must all answer to God for the influence we exert. (4T 641:4).
A positive example will lead others to question what they should do, and little by little they can be led into all facets of dress reform, some more quickly than others, depending on their rate of growth in the Christian life. Let us, then, set a right example and seek God for wisdom that we might be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. ------------------
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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda
quote:
Have you notice that if we just teach Jesus to people how they change. How their attire changes. We don't have to preach clothing, jewlery or any other do or don't to people. Just preach Jesus who died for me and you and its amazing how people change. And they may or may not change to how we think they should but they will change according to how the Holy Spirit convinces them they should.
This makes sense to me, however, can or will the Holy Spirit convict them about something that they may possibly be ignorant about without us being His instrument?
Just wondering.
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In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl Fawcett :)
If we present the truth as they are able, they accept it.
We need to open the word to them, if we don't, how will they learn?
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Is what you're living for worth Christ dying for?
Gerry B.
When someone asks, I answer, but I don't make it a theme of conversation. God eventually brings each person to each point when they are ready to accept it. [This message has been edited by Linda Sutton (edited August 09, 2000).]
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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda
When I first joined the Adventist church as an adult 24 years ago, I stopped wearing jewelry because I was told I would not be accepted for membership unless I did. At that time I was not convicted that the Bible passages generally used by the church to show that jewelry is forbidden really meant that, but only that we were to place a higher priority on the adornment of our character rather than our bodies. However, it was no great sacrifice to me to stop wearing jewelry, and I complied with more of a determination that I did not want to be a stumbling block to the children of the church whose parents were teaching them that it was wrong.
However, at that time I continued to camouflaged my feelings of insecurity and worthlessness with make-up (though I did not use a lot of make-up, I did stand out as being the only one there who wore lipstick) and immodest clothing. Not one of those dear brethren ever said a word to me about those things, for fear of driving me out of the church. How I wish all Adventists everywhere would be so careful of the feelings of the babes in Christ who enter our membership!
As time passed and God changed me on the inside, my clothing tastes changed and the make-up and immodest clothing changed as well, without my ever being aware of any conviction in that direction until much later. In the years since, my heavenly Father has proven to be my most faithful Friend. He has loved me without fail and blessed me abundantly in so many ways. Even the most difficult experiences of my life have become the greatest blessings as He has worked in them to teach me about myself and Himself.
I no longer wear jewelry of any kind, including pins, which in the early days of the church were used to fasten women’s collars, but are now nothing more than ornaments, the same as any other jewelry, but my reasons have changed. God has made it clear enough what He thinks of jewelry, through the Bible and the inspired writings of Ellen White, and it isn't really relevant to me whether it has anything to do with my salvation. My dearest Friend and constant Companion has told me that He would prefer I not use it, and that is all that really matters to me.
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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.
I received your email, and, as I emailed back to you, your post did take. In fact, you posted it three times. I deleted the last two of them.
As I said in my email, you, as a member of MSDAOL, are also a part of this ministry.
Feel free to participate on the various forums of MSDAOL.
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In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl
I've been having a bit of a guffaw over this thread. I think I'll quietly wear a robe to church this Sabbath, and see what happens.I'll never forget the time shortly after I joined the church, one of the men in my church at the time, photo-copied a page from Selected messages about how to dress at church on Sabbath; and he took a 3" spike and nailed the page to the door of my apartment! You should have seen the mess this made of the door!
And all because he didn't like my bright red pants. But, at that time; this was my very best outfit; and I thought it was the most respectful way I could dress.
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"God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." (2 Tim.1:7).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
"Please note that it states "tender, loving instruction." Babies drink milk. They don't eat meat until they have grown some teeth. Most new converts are unlikely to be ready for all of the dress reform message at once."
In a nutshell; what exactly is the dress reform message? Can you sum it up in one sentence?
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"God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." (2 Tim.1:7).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
Maybe we need to step back and think about this for a while.
I saw him in the church building for the first time on Wednesday. He was in his mid-70s, with thinning hair and a neat brown suit.
Many times in the past I had invited him to come. Several other Christian friends had talked to him about the Lord and had tried to share the good news with him.
He was a well-respected, honest man with so many of the characteristics a Christian should have; but he had never put on Christ.
"Have you ever been to a church service in your life?" I asked him several years ago. We had just finished a pleasant day of visiting and talking.
He hesitated. Then, with a bitter smile, he told me of a childhood experience over sixty years ago.
He was one of many children in a large, impoverished family. His parents had struggled to provide food, with little left for housing and clothing.
When he was about ten, some neighbors had invited him to worship with them. The Bible class had been very exciting. He had never heard such songs and stories before. He had never even heard anyone read from the Bible. After class was over, the teacher took him aside and said, "Son, please don't come again dressed as you are now. We want to look our best when we come to worship the Lord."
He stood in his ragged, un-patched overalls, looked at his dirty, bare feet, and said, "No, Ma'am, I won't, ever."
"And I never did," he said, abruptly ending our conversation.
There must have been other factors to have hardened him so, but this experience formed a significant part of the bitterness in his heart.
I'm sure that Bible teacher meant well. But what if she had really understood the love of Christ?
What if she had studied and accepted the teachings found in the second chapter of James?
What if she had put her arms around that dirty, ragged little boy and said, "Son, I am so glad you are here, and I hope you will come every chance you get to hear more about Jesus?"
I reflected on the awesome responsibility a teacher has to welcome little ones in His name. How far-reaching her influence is!
I prayed that I might ever be open to the tenderness of a child's heart, and that I might never fail to see beyond the appearance and behavior of a child to the eternal possibilities within.
Yes, I saw him in the church house for the first time Wednesday.
And as I looked at that immaculately dressed old gentleman lying in his casket, I thought of the little boy of long ago.
I could almost hear him say, "No, Ma'am, I won't, ever." And I wept.
Thanks to Bill Dorman chaplain@bdadvertising.com
He said it a lot better than I can.
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What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.
Gerry B.
Dress reform has two facets-- one deals with health reform, the other deals with spirituality. The first deals with dressing properly for the seasons and protecting the body from adverse conditions. The second deals with following fashion and bowing to the god of fashion. Both deal with modesty and God's commands. And they both are so interspersed that they cannot be completely separated.
One reason that I don't put more on the forum is because of the illustrations that are necessary for people to understand properly what is being referred to. How many people today would know what a pannier is? If you had lived in the 18th and 19th centuries you would have known, but today it takes an illustration to properly know what it is. (It was a kind of bustle.) Then the counsels must be fitted to today's fashions and customs. I am willing to send the manuscript by email attachment to anyone who asks for it. However it is in Word Perfect and would probably not print properly from another program, especially with the graphics.
One other point, this topic is about Sabbath dress and I was posting only what pertained to this particular topic.
And Gerry, I still like the story, sad as it is.
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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda
quote:
"It is a dishonor to the Sabbath, and to God and his house, for those who profess that the Sabbath is the holy of the Lord, and honorable, to wear the same clothing upon the Sabbath that they have worn through the week while laboring upon their farms, when they can obtain other. " (2SM 474:2).
So what does the above quote mean to us today?
It seems to be telling me that we should wear our best in the sanctuary of the Lord our God.
To me, that means wearing at least a shirt and a tie instead of casual wear unless that is the best we have to wear.
I have seen people wear what seemed to be their best one week and then something that didn't compare to what they wore previously the following week.
_________________________
It is more blessed to give
than to receive. (Acts 20:35)
Daryl
[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited December 17, 2000).]
I think I see the point you are trying to make; and it is a good one.
I have severe burns to large areas of my body; and especially the neck and upper trunk areas. The tie (rope around my neck), really bothers the contractures on my neck area.
I try to wear a tie; but it often comes off before the church service is over. I do make sure that what I wear is descent looking; and I keep my sabbath clothes separate from the stuff I wear the rest of the week.
You wouldn't believe the nightmares of guilt that I have had imposed on me because of this issue.
Atleast I don't wear the red pants anymore! (or the diamond ear ring!).
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"We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets; Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone!" (Eph.2:20).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
Where did the wearing of the tie come from in the first place?
_________________________
It is more blessed to give
than to receive. (Acts 20:35)
Daryl
David, a couple of suggestions: In winter at least, you could wear turtlenecks which can be worn without a necktie. I, for one, have always thought they look dashing and even elegant. White or black looks great with a suit. Try it on first to make sure the neck is loose enough for comfort.
Another thing you could do is to wear the pretied ties that clip on if you don't already. They don't bind nearly as much.
Of course, you are having to loosen the neck band, that won't work. You can get extenders for the neck band in any good fabric store. They are a small strip with a button on one end and a buttonhole on the other end. This will expand the neck opening by about 3/4 of an inch or more while keeping the collar band buttoned.
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________________________
Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda
I wear a tie myself, however, I wonder why we make such a big deal of it, myself included.
_________________________
It is more blessed to give
than to receive. (Acts 20:35)
Daryl
[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited December 18, 2000).]
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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.
My concern is about those who obviously are wearing their second hand clothes.
Most times I wear a suit to church, however, there are times when I wear dress pants with a shirt and tie.
I never wear jeans to church, however, I would if caught in a situation where that is all I had to wear that particular Sabbath like the situation you just described.
_________________________
It is more blessed to give
than to receive. (Acts 20:35)
Daryl
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Edward F Sutton
Won
Clean, neat, well taken care of, etc.
Jesus had only one [1] robe, He wore it every day, including sabbath.
The point I'm trying to make is this, if it is the best you have, wear it.
I really don't think God is going to keep you out of heaven because you didn't wear a suit and tie to worship services on Sabbath.
He isn't such a tyrant that He would step on you becauser you have a medical condition that prevents you from wearing certain articles of clothing.
I'm not talking about immodest dress, the word of God is very clear about that, it ought not to be worn.
I'm afraid that if we harp o dress to much, sabbath would become a time of fashion shows.
So, where do we draw the line?
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What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.
You asked for it and here it is--the history of the necktie swiped from a website that it would not do to put in the appropriate web sites forum. 
It is a little lengthy, but I'm posting it in one post rather than breaking it up.
________________________ HISTORY OF NECKWEAR by Alan Flusser The history of neckties dates back a mere hundred years or so, for they came into existence as the direct result of a war. In 1660, in celebration of its hard-fought victory over the Ottoman Empire, a crack regiment from Croatia (then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire), visited Paris. There, the soldiers were presented as glorious heroes to Louis XIV, a monarch well known for his eye toward personal adornment. It so happened that the officers of this regiment were wearing brightly colored handkerchiefs fashioned of silk around their necks. These neck cloths, which probably descended from the Roman fascalia worn by orators to warm the vocal chords, struck the fancy of the king, and he soon made them an insignia of royalty as he created a regiment of Royal Cravattes. The word "cravat," incidentally, is derived from the word "Croat." It wasn't long before this new style crossed the channel to England. Soon no gentleman would have considered himself well-dressed without sporting some sort of cloth around his neck--the more decorative, the better. At times, cravats were worn so high that a man could not move his head without turning his whole body. There were even reports of cravats worn so thick that they stopped sword thrusts. The various styles knew no bounds, as cravats of tasseled strings, plaid scarves, tufts and bows of ribbon, lace, and embroidered linen all had their staunch adherents. Nearly one hundred different knots were recognized, and as a certain M. Le Blanc, who instructed men in the fine and sometimes complex art of tying a tie, noted, "The grossest insult that can be offered to a man comme il faut is to seize him by the cravat; in this place blood only can wash out the stain upon the honor of either party." In this country, ties were also an integral part of a man's wardrobe. However, until the time of the Civil War, most ties were imported from the Continent. Gradually, though, the industry gained ground, to the point that at the beginning of the twentieth century, American neckwear finally began to rival that of Europe, despite the fact that European fabrics were still being heavily imported. In the 1960s, in the midst of the Peacock Revolution, there was a definite lapse in the inclination of men to wear ties, as a result of the rebellion against both tradition and the formality of dress. But by the mid-1970s, this trend had reversed itself to the point where now, in the 1990s, the sale of neckwear is probably as strong if not stronger than it has ever been. How to account for the continued popularity of neckties? For years, fashion historians and sociologists predicted their demise--the one element of a man's attire with no obvious function. Perhaps they are merely part of an inherited tradition. As long as world and business leaders continue to wear ties, the young executives will follow suit and ties will remain a key to the boardroom. On the other hand, there does seem to be some aesthetic value in wearing a tie. In addition to covering the buttons of the shirt and giving emphasis to the verticality of a man's body (in much the same way that the buttons on a military uniform do), it adds a sense of luxury and richness, color and texture, to the austerity of the dress shirt and business suit. Perhaps no other item of a man's wardrobe has altered its shape so often as the tie. It seems that the first question fashion writers always ask is, "Will men's ties be wider or narrower this year?" In the late 1960s and early 70s, ties grew to five inches in width. At the time, the rationale was that these wide ties were in proportion to the wider jacket lapels and longer shirt collars. This was the correct approach, since these elements should always be in balance. But once these exaggerated proportions were discarded, fat ties became another victim of fashion. The proper width of a tie, and one that will never be out of style, is 3 1/4 inches (2 3/4 to 3 1/2 inches are also acceptable). As long as the proportions of men's clothing remain true to a man's body shape, this width will set the proper balance. Though many of the neckties sold today are cut in these widths, the section of the tie where the knot is made has remained thick--a holdover from the fat, napkinlike ties of the 1960s. This makes tying a small, elegant knot more difficult. Yet the relationship of a tie's knot to the shirt collar is an important consideration. If the relationship is proper, the knot will never be so large that it spreads the collar or forces it open, nor will it be so small that it will become lost in the collar. Standard neckties come in lengths anywhere from 52 to 58 inches long. Taller men, or those who use a Windsor knot, may require a longer tie, which can be special-ordered. After being tied, the tips of the necktie should be long enough to reach the waistband of the trousers. (The ends of the tie should either be equal, or the smaller one just a fraction shorter.) After you've confirmed the appropriateness of a tie's shape, next feel the fabric. If it's made of silk and it feels rough to the touch, then the silk is of an inferior quality. Silk that is not supple is very much like hair that's been dyed too often. It's brittle and its ends will fray easily. If care hasn't been taken in the inspection of ties, you may find misweaves and puckers. All fine ties are cut on the bias, which means they have been cut across the fabric. This allows them to fall straight after the knot has been tied, without curling. A simple test consists of holding a tie across you hand. If it begins to twirl in the air, it was probably not cut on the bias and it should not be purchased. Quality neckties want you to see everything: they have nothing to hide. Originally, neckties were cut from a single large square of silk, which was then folded seven times in order to give the tie a rich fullness. Today the price of silk and the lack of skilled artisans prohibits this form of manufacture. Ties now derive their body and fullness by means of an additional inner lining. Besides giving body to the tie, the lining helps the tie hold its shape. The finest-quality ties today are lined with 100 percent wool and are generally made only in Europe. Most other quality ties use a wool mixture. The finer the tie, the higher the wool content. You can actually check. Fine linings are marked with a series of gold bars which are visible if you open up the back of the tie. The more bars, the heavier the lining. Many people assume that a quality tie must be thick, as this would suggest that the silk is heavy and therefore expensive. In fact, in most cases it is simply the insertion of a heavier lining that gives the tie this bulk. Be sure, then, that the bulk of the tie that you're feeling is the silk outer fabric and not the lining. After you've examined the lining, take a look at the tie just above the spot where the two sides come together to form an inverted V. In most quality ties, you will find a stitch joining the back flaps. This is called the bar tack, and it helps maintain the shape of the tie. Now, if you can, open up the tie as far as possible and look for a loose black thread. This thread is called the slip stitch and was invented by a man named Joss Langsdorf in the 1920s to give added resilience to the tie. The fact that the tie can move along this thread means that it won't rip when it's being wrapped tightly around your neck, and that it will, when removed, return to its original shape. Pull the slip stitch, and the tie should gather. If you can do this, you've found a quality, handmade tie. Finally, take the tie in your hand and run your finger down its length. You should find three separate pieces of fabric stitched together, not two, as in most commercial ties. This construction is used to help the tie conform easily to the neck. [This message has been edited by Linda Sutton (edited January 20, 2001).]
Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda
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Copyright and disclaimer © 1996-2000, Thetie. com, inc.
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What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.
__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl
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Edward F Sutton
The style of the well dressed man was defined by Brummell as that which drew no attention to himself. Dark coats, unadorned, but of the most exquisite cut were worn over linen of the snowiest white and well starched neckcloths. Only the waistcoat could display the lavish embroidery and design. The Dandies followed Brummell and the Prince of Wales to have their coats made by Schweitzer and Davidson in Cork Street, and later Mayer, also on Cork Street. Ulimately Brummell's tailor of choice was Weston in Conduit Street. Another well known tailor of the time was Stulze - for Brummell, one could tell a Stulze coat anywhere which was enough to damn it in his eyes. "Give me a man who makes the tailor, not the Tailor who makes the man." Despite this damning appraisal Stulze was popular with such notaries as the Duke of Wellington.
The Neckcloth, under the influence of Beau Brummell the finely arranged cravat became the sign of the truly fashionable man.
The Duke of Wellington was nicknamed 'the Dandy' by his men for his satorial elegance on the field, and was known to dress for his battles in grey greatcoat with a cape and a white cravat. This was unusual for the time as military men generally used a black stock. Napoleon, who respected the Duke and attempted to imitate his style, changed his own black stock for a white cravat on the day of the battle at Waterloo, not apparently with an increase in his fortunes.
White linen was the traditional material for neckcloths, however after the Beau's flight to France other colours became acceptable.
Starch was an essential element in neckcloths until the 1820's when the styles such as 'The Byron' were draped and softer. This style did not really gain popularity until the 1830's.
The Neckclothitania (picutred here) was published in 1818 and showed some of the popular styles of the day. It was published as partly as a satirical document, but it provided information on the styles that were actually affected at the time. Styles such as the Mail Coach were so bulky as to be almost ridiculous and completely at odd's with Brummell's original ideals. He did not affect extreme's of fashion, but believed that style was essential in the quality of ones linen rather than the extremity of it. Another difference by 1818 was the colours were becoming fashionable in neckcloths, in Brummell's day, the only acceptable colour for man's neck-cloth was blanc d'innocence virginale , the purest white.
His collar was copied and grew to extreme heights that covered the ears and were held away from the neck by whale bone stiffeners, and meant men could no longer turn their heads to see, but had to turn their entire bodies. It did however spawn an industry of publications and experts who taught men of fashion how to tie their cravats.
There were, of course, cravat styles for members of certain clubs, The Whip, the Barouche, the Defiance and the 'Four-in-Hand'.
The Four-in-Hand is the basis of the style of neck tie that every man now wears.
Brummell's Method
Brummell's morning toilette was a long drawn out affair, often taking upwards of two hours. He often allowed his friends to sit in the room adjoining his dressing room as he tied his neckcloth so there are numerous accounts of his art.
First a collar was attached to his shirt - before being folded down this was so large it hid his face and head. Then the neckcloth was wound around the outside of the collar and the collar turned down. Brummell then acheived the effect he desired by standing before his looking glass, his chin poked to the ceiling. By gradual and gentle declensions of his jaw he would crease the cravat into the desired shape, dabbing at it with a piece of linen to keep the creases even.
Brummell deplored excess - and the later fashion for ridiculously high collars and neckcloths gained only his sardonic amusement rather than his sartorial approval.
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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda
[This message has been edited by Linda Sutton (edited February 05, 2001).]
It almost puts a stop to my breathing- just looking at them.
This is from when the French saw Croatian (hense, "cravat") soldiers wearing scarves similar to our ties around their necks.
The fancily tied scarves were purely ornamental, to the point of appearing rather arrogant (yet appealing) to the French. (?!)
Soon the French fashion designers developed the "cravats" into the ties that we're supposed to wear with business suits behind our church pulpits today.
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Be glad for all God is planning for you. Be patient in trouble, and always be prayerful. Rom. 12:12 NLT
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In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl
quote:Sounds clear and concise to me.
Many need instruction as to how they should appear in the assembly for worship on the Sabbath. They are not to enter the presence of God in the common clothing worn during the week. All should have a special Sabbath suit, to be worn when attending service in God's house. While we should not conform to worldly fashions, we are not to be indifferent in regard to our outward appearance. We are to be neat and trim, though without adornment. The children of God should be pure within and without. {6T 355.2}
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There are other days I show up wearing my motorcycle leather with steel-toed boots on my feet. Most of the time I only put on a tie if I have a meeting. quote:That seems to pretty well cover it.
While we should not conform to worldly fashions, we are not to be indifferent in regard to our outward appearance. We are to be neat and trim, though without adornment. The children of God should be pure within and without. {6T 355.2}
| That seems to pretty well cover it. |
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