Clapping in church
Posted By: Paul
Clapping in church - 07/21/04 12:46 AM
Clapping in church Part 1
Being an Adventist in the suburban Chicago area I have noticed an interesting phenomenon. Many churches in North America have trouble with the “A word”. By the “A word”, I mean “AMEN”. There are many other churches that do not have this problem. Most black churches for instance are very vocal with their AMENs. As you can probably guess, the churches I am referring to are mostly white, upper middle class suburban churches. Although the congregations are nice and friendly, they tend to be a little more reserved and self conscious of their involvement in the pews.
Every congregation has its own personality, and some are quieter than others. It is almost impossible to get a hearty “AMEN” out of many congregations today without someone at the podium actually goading it out of them like a voice teacher. However, some church members seem to have found an answer to this dilemma. Instead of allowing an awkward silence after a musical selection, or a presentation of some sort, they have begun to Clap. Although it has not always been acceptable to clap in an Adventist church, it seems they feel the need for some sort of appropriate response to what is happening on the platform, and the occasional “AMEN” that is heard, is often meek and timid. Many do not want to utter an AMEN if they fear that they will be the only voice in church. That is understandable.
I sat through one particular sermon where this solution was advocated and encouraged. The speaker explained to us that in bible times, clapping, and shouting, singing and dancing, and musical instruments of all kinds were used to praise God. He cited Psalm 47:1, which says; “O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.” He reminded us, that we Adventists had become a little narrow minded, and had lost sight of true biblical worship. We were being wooden, and not joyous. An illustration was made of how clapping could be done in a worship setting, in response to words of praise to God. It was suggested that many Adventists were “appendagely challenged,” and even the reluctant were invited to join in. It all seemed very new, and fresh, and liberating. And now, with the whole congregation clapping on cue with the speaker on the podium, it was like we had permission from the pastoral staff of the church, that it was OK. It was OK to clap, as long as we were doing it for the right reasons. And with the sound of the clapping reverberating throughout the church, along with quiet laughs of assent and relief, one could easily feel quite anti-social for not joining in. I had to admit that I winced when my wife tried to explain to one of our children that we don’t clap in church, while everyone was doing just that.
It took a while for me to digest all of that. I spoke with some fellow believers about it, and we had to admit that at one time even the hymns of the late 20th century were new, and that everything must change with the times, including the church. I decided to do a study on the subject of clapping. The bible says that “They… searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:11).
My search needed to answer a few questions; Why is it that conservative Adventists do not condone clapping in church? Was there a good reason for it? Is there a good reason to dismiss it as old fashioned? I knew I would not find a cut and dry easy answer to this in the bible, because there were no churches then. So I started with E.G. White. She never mentioned clapping, but she did speak out against applause. The pastor who spoke on this subject had said that, biblical clapping was not used as applause, but as affirmation of praise. But if I were a non-SDA visitor, or an unbeliever, would I know the difference? I could not think of any time when I had heard of people clapping after a sermon, or after a prayer, or scripture reading. It was only done after a musical selection, or when someone was being recognized for service of some sort.
It seemed to me that instead of focusing on the “appendagely challenged” condition of our church, the pastor would have done better if he had explained why it was that historically, Adventists did not clap in church, and if those reasons were at fault, address them. I found the following reasons in the Spirit of Prophecy;
1. Winning applause was not essential to gospel work (MH 36)
2. Christ did not seek applause, and was not elated by it. (DA 261, 330; MH 32, 197; 3T 217; ML 181; 1SM 260)
3. Applause was spiritually dangerous. (3T 185-6; 1TT 321)
4. Ministers should work without the excitement of applause and should labor uncontaminated by it. (ibid)
5. The stimulation of applause is like that of wine. (ibid)
6. We should not seek applause. (4T 568; CH 384)
There were a few more entries on the subject, but not one was positive. So, it seems like there are some good reasons. But what if a person wants their evidence from the bible alone? Maybe not all are swayed by E.G.W. After all, she was writing a century or more ago. Could it be that we were taking her out of context? That seems to be a fair question. So I began looking at the bible more closely.
(Continued in Part 2)
[ July 20, 2004, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Paul ]
Posted By: Paul
Re: Clapping in church - 07/21/04 12:47 AM
(Clapping in church Part 2)
I was surprised to find only a few texts relating to clapping, but there seemed to be a pattern. The text that our minister gave during his sermon was Psalm 47:1 “O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.” It had something in common with some other parts of scripture; they all described scenes of triumphing and rejoicing over a victory or a fallen enemy. In the case of Psalm 47, it is God who triumphs and “reigns over the nations;” Verse 8. He is described as going “up with a shout, The Lord with the sound of a trumpet.” Verse 5.
Another verse spoke in a similar way, except this time it was the enemies of Israel who were rejoicing;
For thus saith the Lord God; BECAUSE THOU HAST CLAPPED THINE HANDS, and stamped with the feet, and rejoiced in heart with all thy despite against the land of Israel; Ezekiel.25:6
The Ammonites are judged by God for TRIUMPHING over fallen Israel.
Jeremiah lamented the rejoicing of gentile nations over Israel’s fall from grace;
All that pass by CLAP THEIR HANDS AT THEE; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth? Lamentations 2:15
Those that passed by were TRIUMPHING over the defeat of Jerusalem.
Likewise, Nahum reports the rejoicing over Nineveh, by its foes;
Nothing can heal your wound; your injury is fatal. Everyone who hears the news about you CLAPS HIS HANDS AT YOUR FALL, for who has not felt your endless cruelty? Nahum 3:19
It is obvious that clapping was a cultural expression of triumphing over and mocking an enemy.
Clapping was also done at the anointing of king Joash, which was accomplished successfully at great peril;
And he brought forth the kings son, and put the crown upon him, and gave him the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; AND THEY CLAPPED THEIR HANDS, and said, God save the king... And when she (Athaliah) looked, behold, the king stood by a pillar, as the manner was, and the princes and the trumpeters by the king, and all the people of the land REJOICED, and blew with trumpets: and Athaliah rent her clothes, and cried, Treason, Treason. 2 Kings 11:12, 14
The handclapping and the blowing of the trumpets were to show THAT ATHALIAH HAD BEEN TRIUMPHED over and would die.
In each of these scripture texts and even in God’s triumph over the nations in Psalm 47:1, worship was not the motivating factor for the clapping, victory was. The psalmist links the clapping with the sounding of trumpets when he saw that God would ascend to His holy mountain and temple. This was not an act of congregational worship on a typical Sabbath. The trumpets were sounded in Israel either at times of war, or at times of solemn assembly, times that prefigured in type, the realities of future triumphs by God over the devil and over sin. Such events as; the Day of Atonement, certain feast days and the anointing of kings. There is no evidence that the trumpets were used in the weekly Sabbaths, when even the sacrificial offerings were similar to the weekday offerings.
So, if clapping was used in ancient Palestine as a victory celebration, how can we use biblical examples in our day and age? Although, we often do applaud the fall of those we oppose, it is not necessarily a cultural thing to express that with clapping and stamping our feet. When we clap after a musical selection in church, are we in effect “celebrating a victory” over something? When we honor a member for service in the church, and the congregation responds with clapping, are we “triumphing” over anything? If so, we are triumphing in a performance, and we are elevating the member above others. No, today clapping is meant primarily as applause, and one would be hard pressed to find a way to use clapping in a biblical way at church. If we can’t find a cut and dry answer from the bible on current issues such as applause, I believe that we would be wise to respect the wisdom of someone who has gone before us, and who has received light on this subject. Mrs. White spoke out against applause, but the bible didn’t. Many people do not see this as a big deal. Why should we listen to Mrs. White? I think the answer can be found in the story of the Recabites in the book of Jeremiah chapter 35.
In the story, the Recabites were told by their father that they should not drink wine, build houses or plant vineyards. There was no scripture, or no direct “Thus saith the Lord” telling them not to do those things, only the admonition of their father. Yet God blessed them for obeying the voice of their father. Mrs. White was blessed by God and given charge over the infant and fledgling SDA church. If we were told by her that a certain act is wrong, we should give her words as much respect as the Recabites gave their father. Because it was God who used her to give us so much of what we have today. In effect she can be said to be the “mother” of our corporate church, and I believe that we ignore her words at our own risk.
I thought about making a point in the church where I had heard the above mentioned sermon. I could illustrate an absurdity by being absurd. Maybe after the next sermon I hear, or after the next prayer or scripture verse, I would clap. That would make my point. However, it would defeat the purpose of my point, which is that when we are worshipping God, we should do so with the utmost respect. So instead of clapping inappropriately, I think that after a good musical selection, I will just give a loud, hearty and appropriate; “AMEN!!!”
Try it in your church this week. It could be contagious, and others might just follow your lead.
[ July 20, 2004, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Paul ]
Posted By: danielw
Re: Clapping in church - 07/21/04 03:11 AM
Very interesting study Paul-san. Here in Japan, many people say "Amen" during people's prayers, at appropriate pauses. I really, really like that, and naturally use it even when i go back to the States, but it seems to bother people so i try to remember where i am and not do it so much when back that way.
Posted By: Shelley
Re: Clapping in church - 07/21/04 04:45 AM
Hi Paul,
A big Amen to what you have written.
![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
I came from a Baptist church into the Adventist churh and found the no clapping thing really uncomfortable. However, after reading your forum message, I have a greater understanding of the issue and don't feel uncomfortable about it anymore. Would it be ok for me to copy your information and share it with others?
Shelley
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Posted By: Paul
Re: Clapping in church - 07/21/04 05:57 AM
Thank you Shelly, of course you can use the post for reference. Feel free to cut and paste if you like. It is an article that I wrote for the Review, but it was not accepted (too doctrinal, they said). I think it was rejected because they had already done an article (which I stumbled upon in a back issue) that basically supported clapping and used the same verse (Psalm 47:1) to justify it, just as the minister in my post had done. But I think they only want articles from readers about Christian life and experiences, and they leave the doctrinal issues to their regular writers. Too bad, because I think my piece was more biblically supported than theirs, but maybe I'm missing something.
![[Reading]](graemlins/reading.gif)
So instead of letting it go to waste, I thought I would post it here, and I am happy that someone found it helpful.
![[Thank You]](graemlins/thanks.gif)
Posted By: Shelley
Re: Clapping in church - 07/21/04 05:37 PM
Hi Paul,
I discussed your information with a couple of people and there appears to be some confusion about whether clapping is always associated with evil. The people in your topic who were clapping, were rejoicing in evil, clapping can thus be seen an act of rejoicing. We are asked to rejoice in the lord. If clapping is an act of rejoicing then we should be able to clap.
The EGW statement "We should not seek applause" Suggests that individuals should not seek approval or praise for themselves. It does not, however, suggest that we should not applaud or praise what is good. I think, we all need to ask ourselves, If we feel like applauding, why we are applauding and who are we giving our praises to.
Coming from a rowdy Baptist church, I am aware that applauding, shouting, and other strange stuff that goes on in different denominations, can be over the top.
However, if having asked myself, whom am I applauding, and my applause or praise is going to God, then my conscience will be clear.
Shelley
Posted By: Paul
Re: Clapping in church - 07/22/04 12:20 AM
Clapping is not always associated with evil, Shelly. In Psalm 47:1, God's people are clapping.
We cannot exactly put up "No Clapping" signs in church. There will always be people who see things differently. However, it was my purpose to demonstrate the lack of biblical support for the justification being used in favor of it. People are using bible texts out of context in order to prove that clapping during worship has a biblical origin, when it doesn't.
A person can be genuinely applauding spiritual things. But ask yourself this: The next time people applaud after special music, how many of them are applauding the musician, and how many are "affirming praise?" And how does the musician and the congregation know the difference? E.G. White discouraged applause because it could inflate the egos of singers, musicians and preachers. How are they to differentiate between applause and affirmation? Many times a talented singer will get a huge applause, while a not so great singer will get nothing, even though their message is the same, and both of their hearts are in the right place. Does God accept one more than the other?
But still, let each be convinced in his or her own heart. I just wanted to show the shaky ground that this justification is built upon.
P.S., if clapping was used as you suggest, we would be doing it after a sermon or a prayer as well.
Posted By: Shelley
Re: Clapping in church - 07/22/04 11:38 AM
But still, let each be convinced in his or her own heart.
In regard to how others react to clapping, we are not responsible for how they choose to react to it.
Some times sermons and prayers are not all that inspiring. I guess what I am saying is that those moments where you know that you have been blessed, you may want to clap or say a loud amen. And not everyone will have been blessed in the same way. We are all at different stages of our journey.
I get your point though. It is a difficult one.
Shelley
Posted By: John H.
Re: Clapping in church - 07/22/04 04:30 PM
Paul, there are other places where articles can be published besides the Review, y'know. Try Adventists Affirm, or Our Firm Foundation.
Posted By: Paul
Re: Clapping in church - 07/22/04 04:45 PM
I agree, it is difficult.
![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif)
I actually don't have a problem with someone clapping in church, because it is a matter of personal growth. But when some of our pastors begin encouraging it and teaching that it's the right thing to do; and when they criticize a doctrine that has been well established in the Spirit of Prophecy, all the while twisting scripture to "prove" their point; then I think the record needs to be set straight.
Whether or not you think clapping is harmless; the next time someone tells you that Psalm 47:1 "proves" that clapping during worship has a biblical origin, you can tell them the truth about how clapping was used in the bible. Just get a concordance and look up "clap," "clapping," "clapped..." and compare the context of its usage.
You have an open mind, keep studying.
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 07/23/04 06:11 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Paul:
A person can be genuinely applauding spiritual things. But ask yourself this: The next time people applaud after special music, how many of them are applauding the musician, and how many are "affirming praise?" And how does the musician and the congregation know the difference? E.G. White discouraged applause because it could inflate the egos of singers, musicians and preachers. How are they to differentiate between applause and affirmation? Many times a talented singer will get a huge applause, while a not so great singer will get nothing, even though their message is the same, and both of their hearts are in the right place. Does God accept one more than the other?
I would say that the very same applies to saying "Amen". What is the reason behind saying "Amen"? Can you honestly say that getting a lot of "Amens" after a song or some point in a sermon does not stroke the ego of the performer or speaker? Are they really only affirming praise? Or are they just verbally applauding the musician or speaker?
I see the perceived difference as being highly subjective and rather inconsequential.
As Shelley pointed out, the primary concern expressed by EGW was not that we shouldn't affirm others in what they do (She in fact encourages honest affirmation of one another), but that we should not be motivated ourselves to speak or sing to get the praise of others.
Tom
Posted By: Paul
Re: Clapping in church - 07/23/04 06:46 AM
That's a good point as well Tom. Sometimes people can use "Amen" as a way to show appreciation for a musical performance as well. But the difference is this;
"Amen" has a biblical basis. It can be used for prayers, scripture reading, music and any form of communication coming from the pulpit. So it is less likely to be misconstrued as a form of applause than clapping, which can only be used appropriately in response to a musical performance or praise of human effort.
The reasons behind saying "Amen" can be found in the bible:
"And all the people shall answer and say, "Amen!'" Deut. 27:15-26
"Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting! And all the people said, "Amen!" and praised the LORD." 1 Chron. 16:36
"And all the assembly said, "Amen!" and praised the LORD. Then the people did according to this promise." Neh. 5:13
"And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. Then all the people answered, "Amen, Amen!" while lifting up their hands. And they bowed their heads and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground." Neh. 8:6
"Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting! Amen and Amen." Psalm 41:13
The instances of the use of "Amen" in the bible are too numerous to mention, while the only use of clapping is to gloat over the defeat of an enemy, whether it be good or bad.
My purpose is not necessarily to go on a crusade to end clapping in the church, but to educate anyone who may be interested, in the proper context of the use of biblical clapping, and to underscore the fact that it is NEVER used during worship in the bible. So don't fall for the excuses that are used to justify it and make it seem like it is somehow ordained by God.
Ya know, I have been having a struggle with that as well. What is really interesting is this. I am a white woman. I lived in Florida for about a month. The first week I went to a church that was mostly white people. It was nice, but the people ther only seemed to go through the motions of worship. They didn't even seem to notice that there were visitors. They seemed cold. They sat in silence throughout the service. The following week, my then-fiance and I went to a church that was predominantly African-American. They greeted us like long-lost friends. They hugged us. They talked to us. They included us. During the worship service, there were "AMENs!" shouted at the right times. I had never been to a church that was so alive! These people seemed to live what they believed. They accepted us where we were and loved us as we were. Now, which church do you think I went back to visit? I was used to the churches that had their own groups, left people out, etc. I was in those groups in my home church. Since that experience, I have tried to be as those in the second church I visited. I enjoyed the fellowship. I DIDN'T fall asleep!
![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
As far as clapping is concerned.....I am still debating on that one.....
Stephanie
Posted By: Paul
Re: Clapping in church - 07/22/04 08:38 PM
Hi Stephanie,
I have shared the same type of experience as well. Part of the reason this issue has interested me so much is because of the contrast I have seen between many of the complacent white churches, and some of the black churches which are located in poorer neighborhoods. It became glaringly obvious when a large apathetic white church began to advocate clapping as a means to liven up its members. It worked to a degree, but church seems more like a concert/meeting than a worship service.
I think that when a congregation is willing to vocalize their assent with a good hearty "Amen!" at appropriate times, they become more involved in what is happening and being said. But when we rely on applause, we relegate ourselves to being merely an observing "audience" instead of a participating "congregation."
[ July 22, 2004, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Paul ]
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 07/22/04 11:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Paul:
I think that when a congregation is willing to vocalize their assent with a good hearty "Amen!" at appropriate times, they become more involved in what is happening and being said. But when we rely on applause, we relegate ourselves to being merely an observing "audience" instead of a participating "congregation."
I would tend to disagree with both of these statements. I think those ready willing and able to give affirmation, whether verbal or physical, and do so, are "more involved in what is happening and being said" regardless of the method of expression. I also do not see any direct correlation between either verbal or physical affirmation and whether the group is acting as merely an audience vs. a congregation. If anything, I would tend to see it going in the opposite direction of what you have suggested.
I think the choice of words to describe the behavior tends to skew the perception. The word "applause" is perceived as more passively polite affirmation directed at the performer, while "clapping" tends to be perceived as more actively involved participation and more of a spontaneous reaction of appreciation. Superficially to the outside and uninvolved observer the actions seem quite the same.
Let's face it, we Anglo/Western types are physically inhibited when it comes to any physical demonstrativeness of our emotional reactions, even in close relationships. As I pointed out in another related discussion, even simply raising our hands in prayer and praise is a hard thing to do, notwithstanding its clear and unequivocal Biblical support. Some of the same folks, if not most, that are uncomfortable with clapping are equally uncomfortable lifting "holy hands in prayer" even though Paul clearly called for it in a worship context. And if you want to really agitate the sedentary saints ask them to follow the directive of Psalms 150:4 that would require them to lift their feet in praise! You might catch us marching to Zion in well disciplined ranks, but any dance step is a mis-step and out of line!
Let me throw a curve into this discussion. It illustrates that the cultural context may explain the behavior, demonstrating that the mode and method of expression is truly secondary, if not completely irrelevant, to the attitude and idea behind it. And things are not always as they seem to be from our perception looking on the outward appearance as we are limited to do. I recently had the pleasure of meeting with a group of dedicated and enthusiastic fellow Christians. Their behavior would have drawn some stern looks from the sedentary saints. At times it was all rather confusing to me and a bit hard to consentrate on what was going on because a number of people were talking at the same time during a lot of the meeting. It seemed a bit noisier than I expected. During prayer, nobody's head was bowed and everyone, and I do mean everyone, had their eyes open. There were a number of people waiving their hands around, including the one praying. Most interestingly, at a point when positive affirmation was appropriate during the meeting, everyone just raised their hands high in the air and waved them vigorously. Oh by the way, this was a meeting of deaf Adventists. Neither clapping nor shouting a hearty "amen" had any real significance or value for them. But God heard their clapping hearts shouting for joy!
Tom
Think of the Pharisees, the less real genuine religion they had, the more outward things they did to cover up the fact.
Really read and seriously ponder over the chapter in Great Controversy called "Modern Revivals". It talks of how in the last days many will do many outward excitement things because they dont have real religion.
The Roman Catholic Church with it's impressive displays, just there to cover up the lack of real religion.
The Great Controversy, page 566, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Liberty of Conscience Threatened
"Many Protestants suppose that the Catholic religion is unattractive and that its worship is a dull, meaningless round of ceremony. Here they mistake. While Romanism is based upon deception, it is not a coarse and clumsy imposture. The religious service of the Roman Church is a most impressive ceremonial. Its gorgeous display and solemn rites fascinate the senses of the people and silence the voice of reason and of conscience. The eye is charmed. Magnificent churches, imposing processions, golden altars, jeweled shrines, choice paintings, and exquisite sculpture appeal to the love of beauty. The ear also is captivated. The music is unsurpassed. The rich notes of the deep-toned organ, blending with the melody of many voices as it swells through the lofty domes and pillared aisles of her grand cathedrals, cannot fail to impress the mind with awe and reverence.
This outward splendor, pomp, and ceremony, that only mocks the longings of the sin-sick soul, is an evidence of inward corruption. The religion of Christ needs not such attractions to recommend it. In the light shining from the cross, true Christianity appears so pure and lovely that no external decorations can enhance its true worth. It is the beauty of holiness, a meek and quiet spirit, which is of value with God."
The Great Controversy, page 248, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: Later English Reformers
"Now I would ask a strange question," said Latimer. "Who is the most diligent bishop and prelate in all England? . . . I see you listening and hearkening that I should name him. . . . I will tell you: it is the devil. . . . He is never out of his diocese; call for him when you will, he is ever at home; . . . he is ever at his plow. . . . Ye shall never find him idle, I warrant you. . . . Where the devil is resident, . . . there away with books, and up with candles; away with Bibles, and up with beads; away with the light of the gospel, and up with the light of candles, yea, at noondays; . . . down with Christ's cross, up with purgatory pickpurse; . . . away with clothing the naked, the poor, and impotent, up with decking of images and gay garnishing of stocks and stones; up with man's traditions and his laws, down with God's traditions and His most holy word. . . . O that our prelates would be as diligent to sow the corn of good doctrine, as Satan is to sow cockle and darnel!"-- Ibid., "Sermon of the Plough."
When a human being realizes he or she is spiritually empty, a person has to come up with all sorts of things to make up for the fact to make it appear they are holy. Whether it be clapping, swaying, shouting or whatever. Many long prayers, praying on the street corner, impressive displays, wedding rings, or whatever... Candles all over the church, crosses all over the church... Loud obnoxious singing... Jesus says in Revelation that He STANDS OUTSIDE THE DOOR AND KNOCKS... it is Jesus that is missing. We say unfortunately... "the church seems cold, let's liven it up" with all manner of outward display... instead of taking hold of the true remedy. "A form of godliness but denying the power thereof."
Claudia
Posted By: Paul
Re: Clapping in church - 07/23/04 05:29 AM
Well Tom, I agree with you that it does not come naturally to many of us to express ourselves, especially in a place like church where we are surrounded by others. I also agree with you that there are other biblical ways of being involved in worship such as the ones you have described. But to say that we can't do something just because it does not come naturally, and that we need to substitute an audience entertainment response instead, is just plain defeatism.
I have been to many church services where an individual would try to get an "Amen," only to be answered with a mumble or two. But if the individual was motivated, they would not accept a lame response. They would say; "What? I can't hear you!" The "Amens" would get a little louder, but still not enough to show spirit. Then the individual would say something like; "Comon! I know your out there! What do you say?!!" And finally the whole congregation would come alive as if they had just been rescusitated. They would also usually remain alive for the rest of the service because they knew they had been demonstrated to be lathargic and comatose. They felt good when they finally broke out of their trance. So, I know that even though it does not come naturally, it can be done, and it is spirituall healthy when it is done. We just need motivation, and a realization of our spiritual condition. Jesus did not describe this period in church history as "Laodicea" for nothing. We are asleep. We are dead, and we are looking for a cosmetic cover up such as clapping, or humorous anecdotes to hide the fact that we are dead, just as Claudia has illustrated.
It seems strange to me that the pastors such as the one in my original post above, are willing to spend an entire sermon trying to encourage people to clap, using bible texts that are out of context to justify it. But they won't spend so much as a minute or two to encourage people to vocalize an occassional "Amen" which has true biblical support and a proper context.
Posted By: Sarah Moss
Re: Clapping in church - 07/26/04 05:14 AM
Just an observation or two of my own....
In our church, we have a very diverse congregation and everyone expresses their worship in many ways. There are people who clap, there are people who say Amen, there are those who say nothing and those who are VERY outspoken....
The only time there is any real "applause" by a majority, is after a baptism. It has become a way to celebrate a persons decision to follow Christ in an audible and tangible way.
In viewing the diversity of our congregation, I have to agree with Tom that there may just be a lot of culture in the choice of expression of worship....
I also have to agree with Paul when he shows us from scripture that clapping is not a scripturally supported expression of worship. How many times have we repeatedly stated, at crusades & other times, that if it is not in the Bible, we do not believe it, and that you cannot base an entire belief on one single scripture...? I point out that Paul has said there may be nothing wrong with clapping only that it is wrong to try to scripturally prove that it is a Biblical method of worship!
One other point is that if God is accepting the worship - in whatever form it is offered, then we have no right to judge, as evidenced in the story of Micah & David (loincloth dancing in the streets by the king .... hmmmm....)
One final comment.... I'm a quiet person. I'm not comfortable with a loud amen, although I do say quiet amens when I am truly moved by something in the service. I am not uncomfortable when others express themselves in other, louder, ways.... However, there are times when amens can be completely unacceptable and not at all in accordance with true worship. I have seen a person disrupt a wedding and several meetings (including one where a black speaker used to such disruptions lost his concentration) by shouting out at completely inappropriate times....
Is worship not between a person & his God? Is there such thing as "corporate" worship? Or is all worship "personal"?
Posted By: Paul
Re: Clapping in church - 07/31/04 04:57 AM
Sarah, you make a very good point. I have heard many prayers or sermons constantly interupted with loud and inappropriate "Amens," which can be very disconcerting. Sometimes it seems as if some people's egos just can't help but have the spotlight on them.
But thanks for recognizing the main thrust of my post, which is that we should not twist scripture to justify something.
Posted By: Dave
Re: Clapping in church - 08/01/04 01:21 AM
I just signed in to become a member of this forum, partly because I think this is a relevent topic. I am a musician and when I play for church I would appreciate an "AMEN", because I consider that a Praise to God, I would hope no one claps for me. On the other hand if I play publicly for some Saturday night program or some such thing then Applause would be just fine. "AMEN", in my opinion, is praising the Lord, which is what I want to do with my music, Clapping is praising the performer.
Just an interesting note; at one vespers I attended, someone stood up and gave quite a performance singing some song, with a lot of motions and loud background music, and got a lot of applause, a few minutes later someone else got up and sang another song, and it was done with dignity and reverance, (my opinion) and they got a good AMEN, from the same audience. It seemed to me that one was praising the singer, the other was praising the Lord. Interesting the different reactions from the same audience.
I appreciate Pauls' post, especially part 2. I had done a study myself several years ago and came to a simular conclusion, that for the most part when the Bible mentions music and clapping and celebration it was usally at the dedication of a temple, or for some victory, or some such thing, and not as a part of regular worship.
Thanks,
David M.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Clapping in church - 08/01/04 06:21 AM
I think we need to be really careful about praising people, whatever the situation may be:
"Our people are making very dangerous mistakes. We cannot praise and flatter any man without doing him a great wrong; those who do this will meet with serious disappointment. They trust too fully to finite man and not enough to God, who never errs. The eager desire to urge men into public notice is an evidence of backsliding from God and of friendship with the world. It is the spirit which characterizes the present day. It shows that men have not the mind of Jesus; spiritual blindness and poverty of soul have come upon them. Often persons of inferior minds look away from Jesus to a merely human standard, by which they are not made conscious of their own littleness, and hence have an undue estimate of their own capabilities and endowments. There is among us as a people an idolatry of human instrumentalities and mere human talent, and these even of a superficial character. We must die to self and cherish humble, childlike faith. God's people have departed from their simplicity. They have not made God their strength, and they are weak and faint, spiritually."
{5T 75.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Clapping in church - 08/11/04 09:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by danielw:
Very interesting study Paul-san. Here in Japan, many people say "Amen" during people's prayers, at appropriate pauses. I really, really like that, and naturally use it even when i go back to the States, but it seems to bother people so i try to remember where i am and not do it so much when back that way.
They do the same thing in Brazil (say "Amen" during prayers at appropriate times). I also like that a lot.
Posted By: Edwin O Owino
Re: Clapping in church - 08/13/04 03:44 PM
Well, in the African context we have two types of clapping. The first is clapping as a means to applaude the performers, I've witnessed that on very few occasions (3 occasions to be precise). On the other hand we have clapping in a particular pattern as some sort of accompaniment to a song and this occurs very frequently it is mostly spontaneous and the entire congregation is involved. My question is are we getting it wrong?
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 08/13/04 04:12 PM
Are you saying that the second type of clapping is to the beat of the song? Interesting, over here usually the Cradle Roll children do this. Of the few songs our little children clap to, it is usually to every beat of the short song. Often it is used to keep the little hands busy occasionally--to keep their short attention span focused.
Edwin, which beat to you clap to? Every beat? In 4/4 time signature, would it be 1/3 beats or 2/4 beats? Just curious.
[ August 13, 2004, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: debbie ]
Posted By: Edwin O Owino
Re: Clapping in church - 08/13/04 04:34 PM
Debbie,
It is the second type of clapping and it is normally the 1/3 beats. Is there anything strange about the beats clapped?
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 08/14/04 04:04 AM
Edwin, are you sure it is the 1/3 beat? With the second type of clapping that you are talking about, normally people clap with every beat.
I'm not up on clapping especially but it seems if we emphasize any particular "beat" even the 1/3 beat that we are taking the emphasis from the melody...I know that most classical music has beautiful melodies and you don't hear much beat emphasis normally. I suppose Beethovens Fifth might have some but anyway, just a thought.
Posted By: Edwin O Owino
Re: Clapping in church - 08/17/04 12:45 PM
Debbie, We've some tunes in which people clap out all the beats but in others we have some beats skipped. I get your take on classicals and I've found some where the beat is so irregular that I can't tap my foot at the beats, there's a piano concerto by Mozart which serves as an example but I can't remember it's number and therefore it is very difficult to clap to such, I am yet to get an example of such though.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/08/05 09:13 AM
While watching the Prophecy code recently, I had an interesting thought. People there would clap for someone entering the room, a song, the serom, a baptizum, and pretty much anything esle except one thing - prayer. I'm wondering we there was no applause for prayer but there was for everything else. Is it to do with reverence? If so, that seems a rather unusual double standard.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: Clapping in church - 04/10/05 03:55 AM
Amen Dave. I agree that is a double standard. Our church is clapping for the baptisims, and some singing.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Clapping in church - 04/10/05 04:42 AM
The same thing happened during the Seven Signs meetings.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/10/05 05:12 AM
Yes it did, although I have a lot of other thoughs about that program. Maybe you should start a topic on it Daryl.
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 04/13/05 07:57 PM
I prefer to have clapping in the church, only if it is done so in the same manner as "AMEN's": that is to say that the direction of the praise is "upward" to Him and not just for the praise of people.
ALSO: it is better to have clapping in the church by hands that are worshipping God: than to have no hands in the church!
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/13/05 08:48 PM
Remember when our church began 150 years ago or so, there was no clapping and the church was blessed and grew by leaps and bounds. It is only since the Penticostal movement started in this country that we started clapping in church.
Go back a few years and people were won to the church because of TRUTH being taught, not to be entertained!!!!! And to clap was considered worldly and showed a lack of reverence.
God has not changed!
"Some ministers of ability who are now preaching present truth, love approvation. Applause stimulates them, as the glass of wine does the inebriate. Place these ministers where they have a small congregation which promises no special excitement and which provokes no decided opposition, and they will lose their interest and zeal, and appear as languid in the work as the inebriate when he is deprived of his dram. These men will fail to make real, practical laborers until they learn to labor without the ecitement of applause." 3T 185-186
If you will notice in the above quote, Mrs. White is talking of ministers who are NOW preaching present truth! Applause or clapping does more harm than good! We need to stay away from it.
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 04/13/05 11:33 PM
So Debbie, do you think this applies to all ministers and/or in all situations within the church?
You have said,"God has not changed!" Quite true, and nobody is disputing that. But we are not talking about God's character or His very nature. This talking about how people relate to God and one another and how they express their praise, approval, reverence, etc. in the context of those relzationships.
Would you concede that with that in mind that we must relate to God in the very same manner with the very same forms of behavior and the very same ways of expressing our praise, love and respect for God as was done from the very begining of time as recorded in Scripture?
Incidently, I would question your recall of history and the corelations you seem to be implying. You imply that the clappin Adventists churches corresponded with the begining of the Pentecostal movement in this country. If that were true, we would have been clapping for most of our history. You also seem to imply that our growth was rebust before clapping asuch began and consequently stagnated as we adopted such practices within our churches. The growth in NAD has been stagnant for quite a few decades now, pretty much for the lifetime of this old man. The clapping, more open service styles and formats has only begun to take hold in the Adventist Church, generously within the last 10-15 years. During that same time period there are signs of blossoming growth, particularly where such behavior is accepted as normal. And your observation clearly does not account for the fact that tremondous growth within the Church is happening within cultures, both here and overseas, where such behavior is, and has been for a long time, OK and not even questioned.
By the way, in answer to my questions, consider that the word "some" opens the quote, and that I have witness the same response by minister to hearty amens and have see speakers milking the audience for more amens. And if you are hesitating about the concession I ahve asked for, ask yourself, why you wear shoes in the sanctuary, or whether you,as a woman, tay in the back or completely separate section apart from the men, or when the last time you spoke up in SS class or spoke from the pulpit, or how many female heads, including the face, do you see covered in church, or....
God does not change in character and his very nature, but people do and God does change th eways in which he reaches out to us and his expectations of how we reach out to him. Think about it.
Tom
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Clapping in church - 04/14/05 01:27 AM
Well, what does the Bible have to say about clapping?
The following verse comes to mind:
quote:
Psalms 47:1
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm for the sons of Korah.
Clap your hand, all you peoples; shout to God with the voice of triumph.
What type of setting would this clapping be referring to?
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/14/05 06:11 AM
In the quote from the SOP concerning applause, it says "Some ministers" and if you will look at the whole sentence, she is speaking only of those who have a PROBLEM with approbation who are actually addicted to applause because obviously self is in the limelight.
If you will read the whole quote, you will find that Mrs. White says these same ministers will FAIL in their work as ministers of the gospel until they learn to work without men's applause.
Our church back in Sister White's day did not use applause. I don't need to prove this because it is in her writings. What people want to do with these quotes, reject them or accepting them, has nothing to do with the validity of the quotes.
As for me, I believe the Spirit of Prophecy to be inspired and I will follow them.
"God requires all to do with faithfulness the duties of today. This is much neglected by the larger share of professed Christians. Especially is present duty lost sight of by the class I have mentioned, who imagine that they are of a finer order of beings than their fellow mortals around them. The fact that their minds turn in this channel is proof that they are of an inferior order, narrow, conceited, and selfish. They feel high above the lowly and humble poor, such as Jesus says He has called. They are forever trying to secure position, to gain applause, to obtain credit for doing some great work that others cannot do. But it disturbs the fine grain of their refined organism to associate with the humble, the unfortunate. They mistake the reason altogether. The reason why they shun any of these duties not so agreeable is found in their supreme selfishness. Dear self is the center of all their actions and motives." 2T 467-468.
In other places Sister White says we are not to flatter men. She says "self is easily exalted, and, in consequence, persons lose their balance." She goes on to say it is never safe by WORD OR ACTION to exalt a brother. She says "there are few who can bear praise without being injured."
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/14/05 06:24 AM
If you go to the CD-rom and put in the word "applause" you will find plenty in which to see that it is not something to value.
ChL 73:1
EW 107:1
GW 111
GW 275:2
GC 40:1
HP 68:5
SW 17:2
The above are just a few references one can look up to find out what God thinks of applause.
There is not one word in the SOP that favors applause. She speaks of it in reference to worldly things, not heavenly.
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 04/14/05 07:06 AM
-Interesting point Daryl. I understand it to be "clapping with JOY for the Lord".
-The scriptures also give instruction for us to "lift holy hands to the Lord", is this also a tabu in the SDA church, maybe a bit to "Penticostal"?
- Maybe I am misunderstanding but is "applause" the same as "clapping"?
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 04/14/05 09:00 AM
Debbie,
I am quite familair with and understand the EGW statements, in their full context. I am not so sure that you do.
Now would you please actually answer the questions I asked? And while you are at it, explain how we are to understand the text Daryl posted.
Tom
Posted By: Will
Re: Clapping in church - 04/14/05 09:24 AM
Clapping in North America is associated with a good punchline from a comedian, a standing ovation at a concert, and also to commend someone as in a job well done which can show respect to the person who receives the applause by his or her peers.
The bottom line is that we are talking about clapping in church where we worship God, and where we should and need to show respect and reverance, and this is something rather interesting where tact and timing need to be considered. I have seen it at church recently, and always asked myself what ever happened to the 'Amen!'?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 04/14/05 08:55 PM
Will, your concept of "clapping" is VERY narrow minded. If you do not understand that when clapping is done it is not just for the reasons that you have stated. In church I have, do, and will clap, as well as voice my agreement, either by "amen" or "yes", so it is interesting that you have not included the "clapping" as Daryl has mentioned in his previous post.
-Also what about the raising of hands in worship?
Posted By: Will
Re: Clapping in church - 04/14/05 09:44 PM
And who on earth gives you the right to judge me Daniel and tell me my view is VERY narrow minded. Dont you find that your own empty laments of not judging the outward is a contradicion in terms by calling my views VERY narrow minded?
I will now shut up as you would prefer, and not comment on this anymore. Good work Daniel.
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/14/05 10:33 PM
Will, you are right in your assessment concerning clapping in worldly situations. And clapping and/or applause is right and proper and expected in those situations. I appreciated your comments.
In Church, applause/clapping is never appropriate. Perhaps a study on proper reverence in association with applause is appropriate here.
Websters definitions:
Applause: approval publicly expressed (as by clapping the hands): acclaim
Clapping: to strike (the hands) together repeatedly usa. in applause: applaud.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/14/05 11:01 PM
What about the clapping done in black churches in connection with worhip services? Who here will say that this worship style is disrespectful to God?
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 04/14/05 11:54 PM
Thomas, precisely one of the cultural manifestations to which I was referring! African American church services have long been exuberant and expressively interactive by voice, clapping, hand waving, etc. Perhaps some here have not experienced this style of worship firsthand... It is within the black Adventist community that we have had the most consistent growth in NAD, which seriously undermines Debbie's implied presumptions.
Debbie, are you quite serious that clapping/applause should
never happen in church? Again, how do you reconcile that absolute declaration with the text that Daryl posted? And I rather thought that this topic
was attempting a discussion of reverence and applause! Perhaps a move toward that objective would be to stop ignoring and to start honestly dealing with the questions actually raised already...
Will, how amazingly ironic, and dare I say - blindly hypocritical, that you should chastise Daniel for daring to "judge" you after a post by you that was decidedly judgmental about applause in lieu of a hearty round of "Amen" and equating applause as nothing more than a reaction to a comedic punchline. Is not every comment expressed here against clapping in church judgmental of those who do clap in church? If I hadn't just spoken I would say I am speechless!
Tom
![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif)
Posted By: Will
Re: Clapping in church - 04/15/05 12:45 AM
Tom,
Answer these easy to follow simple questions. I will even make it point by point in case you get confused.
1. Do people clap when a comedian gives a good punchline?
2. Is an applause given to someone who deserves a standing ovation for a performance?
3. Do people clap for someone who they support and usually after a speech?
there was a part in my post where I said that tact and timing need to be considered when we are in a church service.
YOu definitely missed that one. So please spare me the smoke you are trying to blow up my nose and other people's nose with such pseudo dignity and strength of character. Pick your battles next time cause I am not afraid of a lawyer or the devil.
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/15/05 02:57 AM
It doesn't matter if you're skin color is black white blue or green, what Mrs. White says about applause applies to everyone. She makes no distinctions.
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 04/15/05 05:21 AM
Hey there Will, I am sorry that you are SO sensative to this topic...
You and Debbie do not respond to direct question but rather "dance" AROUND THEM BY ASKING "MORE" questions:
YES the cultures do have variances and if you can not accept that then you ARE being narrow minded and "border line racist". YIKES that was harsh, but a VERY true statement. We were not created THE SAME! so in my Maritime 95% white church, will we worship the same as in my brothers Afro North American churches? Are we supposed to worship the same ??? Come on!?
By the way! I do take offence to these past few posts, but then again I am sure that I offend some people here!
Posted By: Will
Re: Clapping in church - 04/15/05 05:43 AM
Thanks Daniel. You are right. I am borderline racist, and narrowminded as well for using what I have seen to be generally used situations for clapping. I had not had thechance to look up the word clapping in the Bible, and perhaps you should do so for yourself.
I appreciate your kind words. Both you and Tom are so right. I wish I could be like you and may even change my way of thinking so I can be approved by you two loving people. Wish more could be like you.
Thank you again for showing a Christian like character.
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 04/15/05 08:04 AM
Debbie, I am sorry you do not see the distinctions that EGW
does make, whether you think so or not. And it is quite clear that her observations reflect a 19th Century conservative white New England Methodist background. On the other hand, the Bible reflects an emotionally expressive and openly demonstrative middle Eastern Jewish outlook and style of worship. Let's not condemn those who find meaning and unique ways to express their cultural values and ideas of respect, love and adoration for one another and the God we collectively worship. Just look around and see for yourself if there is any evidence that God appreciates diversity in his creation. If he didn't, horses, cats, whales, birds, dogs, lions, donkeys, monkeys, etc., etc., would all sound the same and bleat like sheep... And the colors of the rainbow would all be blue... And all food would taste like rice...
Will, I would like to think that in your last post you were being genuinely sincere... but alas it just came across as childish, rude and insulting. It does bring to mind the insightful and true words of Ralph Waldo Emmerson:
"People seem not to see
that their opinion of the world
is also a confession of their character."
Tom
![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif)
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/15/05 08:12 AM
I think these are all the places in the KJV with the english word clap. However, it seems that these are based on three different hebrew words. Though I dont have the time right now to explore that fully.
/Thomas
Job 27:
22For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.
23Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place.
Job 34
36My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men.
37For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.
Psalm 47
1O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
2For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.
3He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.
Psalm 98
7Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
8Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together
9Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.
Isaiah 55
11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
12For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
13Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.
Lamentations 2
14Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity; but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment.
15All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth?
16All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it.
Nahum 3
18Thy shepherds slumber, O king of Assyria: thy nobles shall dwell in the dust: thy people is scattered upon the mountains, and no man gathereth them.
19There is no healing of thy bruise; thy wound is grievous: all that hear the bruit of thee shall clap the hands over thee: for upon whom hath not thy wickedness passed continually?
2 Kings 11
11And the guard stood, every man with his weapons in his hand, round about the king, from the right corner of the temple to the left corner of the temple, along by the altar and the temple.
12And he brought forth the king's son, and put the crown upon him, and gave him the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; and they clapped their hands, and said, God save the king.
13And when Athaliah heard the noise of the guard and of the people, she came to the people into the temple of the LORD.
Ezekiel 25
5And I will make Rabbah a stable for camels, and the Ammonites a couching place for flocks: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
6For thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast clapped thine hands, and stamped with the feet, and rejoiced in heart with all thy despite against the land of Israel;
7Behold, therefore I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and will deliver thee for a spoil to the heathen; and I will cut thee off from the people, and I will cause thee to perish out of the countries: I will destroy thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD.
Posted By: Will
Re: Clapping in church - 04/15/05 08:25 AM
Thanks Tom. I appreciate that.
![[Tasty]](graemlins/tasty.gif)
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Clapping in church - 04/16/05 04:14 AM
This is what the SDA Binle Commentary has to say about the verse I posted, namely Psalms 47:1 quoted below:
quote:
1. Voice of triumph.
See 2 Sam. 6:15; 1 Chron. 15:28. Nothing short of such demonstrations as
clapping and shouting appeared sufficient to the psalmist to express the praise that is due God (see Ps. 148, 149, 150).
What kind of clapping and shouting is being referred to here?
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/16/05 06:09 AM
And is that clapping and shouting taking place in the sanctuary?
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/16/05 06:30 AM
As I see it, there are many ways to praise God, pray, and worship in the Bible, but when you are in God's house, you are to keep His rules. Just look at how particular God was about the sanctuary, the ark, and the keeping of cerin dates in the Old Testement. We should be attempting to meet what God wants not trying to make God meet what we want.
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 04/16/05 07:15 AM
come on Dave, are you going to suggest next that we impliment segregated seating? Gendre seperations, no children in the sanctuary? no congregational singing (John Huss introduced this form of singing only in the 1200's) no electrical intruments or audio video equipment?
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/16/05 08:14 AM
Huh? Do the words "left field" mean anythig to you there? I'm not sure we are even on the same topic here.
If you want answers to your questions, search the scriptures. Try Jesus casting out the money changers to start with. There is plenty more to look at too.
What principals would relate to electric equipment?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/16/05 11:41 AM
There is a connection between #1 clapping rejoicingly to God and #2 greedily making money under the pretence of assisting the worship service (ie the salesmen Jesus threw out)?
/Thomas
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/16/05 05:22 PM
Ps 89:7
"God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him."
Lev. 19:30
"Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord."
Lev. 26:2
"Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord."
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 04/16/05 07:00 PM
It would seem to me that in a discussion such as this we really cannot compare the sanctuary of old to a modern church. The Sanctuary was not the same as a church of today, it was the place where God literally dwelt, our churches today are not. Therefore the rules are not the same.
Redfog
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/16/05 10:32 PM
I would dissagree with that. We go to church to meet God. It is our place to worship him with reverence.
If that were the case, we should also throw out all clapping references in the OT.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Clapping in church - 04/16/05 11:34 PM
From the pen of Inspiration:
"From the sacredness that was attached to the earthly sanctuary among the children of Israel, Christians may learn how they should regard the place where the Lord meets with His people. God himself gave rules of order, perfect and exact, to be observed in His worship. But there has been a change, not for the better but for the worse, in habits in reference to religious worship. The spirit of reverence has largely passed away..."
{The Youth's Instructor 10-08-96 para. 3}
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 04/16/05 11:36 PM
I actually have little use for clapping in church as I believe it is primarily used to honor the performer, however I still don't think there is a direct correlation between the sanctuary of old and the church service today. That being said I've seen scripture set to music, (Isaiah 55:12)where there was clapping that was very beautiful and reverent.
Another thing is that I think we send a mixed message to our children, we tell them that all the clapping (and rytham sticks, tamborines etc) to the songs they do in the children divisions are great but as soon as they start getting older it becomes somehow wrong. Huh?
Redfog
Redfog
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/17/05 12:52 AM
Acctually, the building where we have our sabbath services cannot be compared to the temple of Jerusalem. Why? Becourse the bible says that the temple that exists today is the believers/body of believers. God is "present" in a church building only when one or many of His people are assembled in it.
I would also hope that the sabbath gathering isnt everyones main time/place of meeting God. Yes you can and should meet God there and then, but you should also meet Him, communicate with Him, share life with Him the remaining 172 hours of the week.
If clapping then is disrespectful towards God in the worship service sabbath mornings, why is it any different at the football game, the consert or the school play where your son/daughter did the lead character well? If the problem is feeding the ego of the person most active, it would seem all times should be counted equal.
Comments, questions, rejections or
? Anyone?
/Thomas
Posted By: John H.
Re: Clapping in church - 04/17/05 12:56 AM
Yes, a question -- I wonder why you two fellows feel like you can just brush an inspired statement aside like that, without any further ado.
Not a very safe course of action!
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/17/05 01:03 AM
John
I am curious to know how what I wrote goes against the EW quote you posted. "the place where the Lord meets with His people" could as far as can be read here be any place from your backyard to the Peter Basilica in Rome.
/Thomas
Posted By: John H.
Re: Clapping in church - 04/17/05 01:08 AM
Well, Thomas, if that's the case, then the Hebrew sanctuary can be compared to all of those places as well. As it can be compared to our churches, all of which are places "where the Lord meets with His people."
But more specifically, EGW was referring to our churches in the passage quoted above. In the very next paragraph, she wrote,
"Reverence is greatly needed in the youth of this age. I am alarmed as I see children and youth of religious parents so heedless of the order and propriety that should be observed in the house of God."
{The Youth's Instructor 10-08-96 para. 4}
link to entire article in Youth's Instructor
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/17/05 02:59 AM
Great stuff John!
Posted By: Barry
Re: Clapping in church - 04/17/05 03:01 AM
I pastor a church where we clap. In our 2 1/2 years we have only had one Sadventist that complained about the clapping in our church. She has not been back.....and that is good. Not everyone worships God in the same way. It was not the church she was looking for. And, I find it very interesting that someone brought up "Black Churches". I have often asked my black brothers how they get away with what they do in church? You see, if white folks act like that in church, we called it "Celebration" and shut it down.
NOT ALL PEOPLE WORSHIP GOD IN THE SAME WAY! If it is differant than the way you worship, don't go there..........but at the same time, don't throw rocks either.........
Our ministry is sqarely directed at the 3 out of 4 Adventists that have left the Adventist Fellowship. Praise God, we are seeing them coming back by the dozens! Recommiting their lives! Being rebaptised! I'd be clapping now if I did'nt have to use my hands to type!
I have been very interested to see that NO ONE is biting on the question of raising hands in church. C'mon, there has got to someone out there brave enough to tackle this one...........
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/17/05 03:12 AM
You can clap and raise your hand all you want, but lets not forget the context of 1 Corinthians 8
quote:
Now I will write about meat that is sacrificed to idols. We know that "we all have knowledge." Knowledge puffs you up with pride, but love builds up. If you think you know something, you do not yet know anything as you should. But if any person loves God, that person is known by God. So this is what I say about eating meat sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is really nothing in the world, and we know there is only one God. Even though there are things called gods, in heaven or on earth (and there are many "gods" and "lords"), for us there is only one God -- our Father. All things came from him, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord -- Jesus Christ. All things were made through him, and we also were made through him. But not all people know this. Some people are still so used to idols that when they eat meat, they still think of it as being sacrificed to an idol. Because their conscience is weak, when they eat it, they feel guilty. But food will not bring us closer to God. Refusing to eat does not make us less pleasing to God, and eating does not make us better in God's sight. But be careful that your freedom does not cause those who are weak in faith to fall into sin. You have "knowledge," so you eat in an idol's temple. But someone who is weak in faith might see you eating there and be encouraged to eat meat sacrificed to idols while thinking it is wrong to do so. This weak believer for whom Christ died is ruined because of your "knowledge." When you sin against your brothers and sisters in Christ like this and cause them to do what they feel is wrong, you are also sinning against Christ. So if the food I eat causes them to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again so that I will not cause any of them to sin.
1 Corinthians 8 NCV
Would you be as glad about the lady that left your church if you knew that she has stopped going to any and all churches because of it?
Posted By: Barry
Re: Clapping in church - 04/17/05 03:19 AM
Certainly not! But what I find most is folks that do not have one ounce of anointing on their lives are the ones that are the most opinionated about how things should be done............
Most folks that come to our church are seeking a blessing........a few come looking for the fault...therefore, in every church service we always make a mistake so that everyone is blessed!
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/17/05 04:12 AM
Perhaps your blessings is not the blessing they need. My issue is not with established "celebaration churches," but with leaders attempting to convert churches to it. IF you do it, it is for you to deal with, but it is not right to attempt to make everyone follow you. I know a bit about this because of what the conference here has tryed in invoke many times.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 04/17/05 04:56 AM
Why would anyone think there can be any good in thinking it good that one never came back to church? I find it disturbing that any church member, much less a pastor, would rejoice in someone not being at church.
Redfog
Posted By: Barry
Re: Clapping in church - 04/17/05 06:26 AM
It all depends on the spirit they bring to church with them. If they are infected with the spirit of legalism or the spirit of disturbance, then it is the wrong spirit and the church is better without them. I have been in many churches that are deacon possessed.
Our church is a new breed of church in Adventism. They refer to us as a Cowboy Church. 'Course, down here in Texas, that ain't all bad. Probably because we are a little outside the "Box". It is not for everyone. But it is not meant to be either. Our ministry is to reach out to the ones that have left the fellowship of the church for whatever reason.
We strongly suggest that our program not be taken into any existing church but rather start with a clean sheet in a new facility. We have by invitation started 2 Cowboy Churches in existing facilities that are growing in leaps and bounds. But in both cases, the churches were dead or about to die.
The two things that we find are always present is growth and persecusion. But then scripture tell us with properity comes persecusion.
Now, what about lifting hands in church?????
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 04/17/05 08:11 AM
Barry, I would like to help lift up your hands in your ministry. God bless you and your efforts to seek out the lost sheep. What a great modern day American metaphor of the shepherd to call it the cowboy church!
quote:
Originally posted by John:
...I wonder why you two fellows feel like you can just brush an inspired statement aside like that...
Uh John, what about the repeated brush aside of the inspired Scripture that Daryl and Thomas have both referenced!?!? (As Thomas noted elsewhere, this sort of begs the question in the topic of what is the focus of the SDA Church... EGW trumps all discussion and posting including that of Scripture....)
Now John, if you are suggesting that the conduct in the sanctuary of old should be the model for the way we do church, how are you determining what must stay and what must go? If you are following the earthly sanctuary/temple rules prescribed for Israel, take off your shoes and do the ritual cleansing before entering, women and children must stay in the back, only men may stand (sitting not allowed as it would be to informal and disrespectful) up front, no women allowed while they are menstruating, no deformed men allowed, no castrated men allowed, the minister should be barefooted and must wear the prescribed linen garments, etc., and don't forget your sin offering if you sinned this week... And I am only scratching the surface!
Dave, the point I think Daniel was making is that the the rules of order and conduct of our worship services have far more to do with traditions of men than they do with the worship God expects and directs in Scripture. And those traditions have changed over the years, some of which would seem ridiculous to us today.
And by the way, Spencerville Church where I attend, has a very traditional and conservative service. We clap our hands and say "Amen!", especially after a baptism.
Tom
Posted By: Wendy F
Re: Clapping in church - 04/18/05 08:26 AM
quote:
Now John, if you are suggesting that the conduct in the sanctuary of old should be the model for the way we do church, how are you determining what must stay and what must go? If you are following the earthly sanctuary/temple rules prescribed for Israel, take off your shoes and do the ritual cleansing before entering, women and children must stay in the back, only men may stand (sitting not allowed as it would be to informal and disrespectful) up front, no women allowed while they are menstruating, no deformed men allowed, no castrated men allowed, the minister should be barefooted and must wear the prescribed linen garments, etc., and don't forget your sin offering if you sinned this week... And I am only scratching the surface!
(edited by moderator) Tom! That is really stretching it. I feel like Del Star has been reincarnated reading your post. Sigh.
[ April 25, 2005, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: debbie ]
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 04/19/05 06:06 AM
Wendy, how is that stretching it? I would say that Dave and John are stretching things in that direction by suggesting that the sanctuary rules for the Israelites should define how we conduct ourselves in church today. I was only pointing out some of those rules that governed how the Israelites were to demonstrate their reverence for the sacredness of the sanctuary/temple. It's all there in Leviticus if you care to look.
Tom
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/18/05 08:06 PM
Hmmm, refering to the Bible for guidence is a "stretch." Most interesting.
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 04/19/05 07:18 AM
Dave, enough juvenile sniping. If you are not going to make a rational and mature contribution to the discussion, just keep quiet.
If one merely makes blind and unthinking reference to Scripture for guidance I would hate to see the results of being blindly guided by Psalms 137:9, "Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"
Tom
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/19/05 03:01 PM
Is it really blind to consider six to eight books giving referenc on conduct?
Posted By: Jan
Re: Clapping in church - 04/19/05 03:55 PM
What juvenile sniping?? It is becoming unpleasant to read posts when people who apparently consider themselves mature Christians keep making such condescending remarks when anyone disagrees with them. There must be a better way to study....
Posted By: John H.
Re: Clapping in church - 04/19/05 05:00 PM
Tom, I'm beginning to wonder about your reading comprehension skills. I didn't suggest that Old Testament sanctuary rules of deportment should influence what we do today; Ellen White did. Your argument there is with her, not me.
And yes, as Wendy has already said, you're stretching things in quite a ridiculous fashion, and are attempting to make a mockery of a clear statement of Inspiration.
Again.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/19/05 05:51 PM
quote:
and said to them, "It is written in the Scriptures that God said, "My Temple will be called a house of prayer.' But you are making it a hideout for thieves!"
Matthew 21:13
quote:
"I will bring you to Zion, my sacred hill, give you joy in my house of prayer, and accept the sacrifices you offer on my altar. My Temple will be called a house of prayer for the people of all nations."
Isaiah 56:7
I'm thinking that if God's house is a house of prayer, he probobly does not want it to be a place of entertainment either.
It is important to note that Jesus said this. Was God dwellong in the earthlt sanctuary in a different way during the life of Jesus than he is now?
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/19/05 05:54 PM
Oh, and since you brought it up Tom, lets look at the proper context of your quote from Psalms.
quote:
Lord, remember what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. They said, "Tear it down! Tear it down to its foundations!" People of Babylon, you will be destroyed. The people who pay you back for what you did to us will be happy. They will grab your babies and throw them against the rocks. A psalm of David.
Psalms 137:7 - 9
A much different meaning, and a strange way of trying to prouve your point.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/19/05 08:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
I'm thinking that if God's house is a house of prayer, he probobly does not want it to be a place of entertainment either.
Exactly, Gods house should be a house of prayer first and foremost. I wish this was the way most people felt. Then the midweek (or whenever it is held in your church) prayermeeting would be one of the focal points of church activity and not only for the few who now attend. More prayer to our churches would mend much that may now be called amiss.
quote:
It is important to note that Jesus said this. Was God dwellong in the earthlt sanctuary in a different way during the life of Jesus than he is now?
God was once dwelling in the earthly temple/tabernacle in a way which He doesnt do today. In a vissible, glorious and deadly way where only the high priest could approach Him and live.
In Jesus day, God walked around galilee and judea with the twelve and the seventy, healing and teaching, calling all to fellowship with Him.
Today we are told by the words of Paul and Peter that the body of God/Jesus on earth is whereever we who are His diciples are gathering, sabbath morning in the church, monday morning in maybe in the factory, office or school.
/Thomas
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 04/20/05 02:21 AM
mOCKERY OF "cLEAR sTATEMENTS"???
cOME ON!
John! Dave! Wendy!
Why do you not take this topic on with scripture? BECAUSE scripture states that "we" His people are to worship in Spirit and in Truth! Lifting of Holy hands, Praising God with every Breath! Singing Praises unto the Lord!
(yes when I am back home I will give Bible reference to these statements and more! Thank God Spring is here and I am now 125 yards from the Ocean)
As for this topic of the Church today following the "sanctuary/temple service" has anyone sacrificed a lamb lately?
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/20/05 02:49 AM
Daniel:
Did you somehow miss the scripture I quoted? Since all scripture that you are refeing to has nothing to do with the house of God, I am assuming you just skipped over the ones I quoted. And again, you jump to the extreem to try and shoot down a point but John has alredy given an inspierd quote to go along with this.
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 04/20/05 04:58 AM
Are our bodies not the Temple of the Living God?
oh yes by the way, what about the Raising of Hands in Church??? No one seems to want to address this, although it has been asked here many times???
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/20/05 05:09 AM
I addressed it. Since you asked again, it depends on if it is asked for. It is really more like what happens at a christian rock concert.
Was Jesus correct in calling a building His Father's house?
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 04/20/05 03:44 PM
The expression of "you must be in left field" does not even apply here, because Dave your not even in the same "ball park"!
-Do you and others really think that the creator God wants from us to sit in church at 11 am on Sabbath morning and go through a man made system of ritual clock watching display??? Just look at the origins of our worship format. 11 am welcome and opening prayer, 11:10 opening Hymn 11:15 Childrens story 11:25 Offering 11:30 Special Music 11:35 Prayer 11:45 Sermon 12:15 closing Hymn 12:20 Postlude
Sound alive for the Lord eh?
I believe that God through scripture wants and calls for us "His Chosen People" to do more than "Sabbath Morning Church"! So this concept that the Church at Worship is to be a solemn and quiet time of reflection just doesn't cut it! For too long we His people have sat in our wooden pues and "played church" NOW is the time to Stand Up and be soldiers in His army! Like the song of "Onward Christian Soldiers"! This battle is not against flesh and blood BUT is against the spirits and principalities!
-PRAISE GOD! this will be the first Sabbath here in our Moncton Church where we will not be dividing the church but will be uniting His church:
9am Contemporary Church
10am Sabbath School (with all members of the 9am and 11am service meeting to study the word of God)
11am Traditional Church Service
This format will allow the church to meet and worship as they come before the Lord in His House! and by meeting together for Sabbath School, we will not be seperated but rather unified!
I will report on an on going basis the results of this change, I will be attending both the 9 am and 11 am services because I am the head of the Sound and light department at this church.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/20/05 04:48 PM
Interesting. It sounds like your church might be doing a bit of pandering. Yeah, I would say we are not even on the same planet. If we are to be lively, we might as well have a rock conceret ever sabbath and then a dance. That is more or less what I have seen the Penticostals do.
Again, the Fahter's house is a house of prayer, not of dancing, jumping, shouting, clapping, etc. It is offten reccomended that if there are problems in a church, the pastor should not even have a sermon, but should devote the entier church service to prayer.
Posted By: Barry
Re: Clapping in church - 04/20/05 05:18 PM
"O Lord, please let something happen in church today that is not in the bulletin".........Amen.
If worship services are not kept fresh and uplifting then people begin to worship the letergy and not the Savior..........Might be a clue as to why there are 3 times more Adventists outside the church than in.............
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Clapping in church - 04/21/05 06:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jan:
What juvenile sniping?? It is becoming unpleasant to read posts when people who apparently consider themselves mature Christians keep making such condescending remarks when anyone disagrees with them. There must be a better way to study....
![[Caution]](graemlins/caution.gif)
I agree with Jan, therefore, this is a warning to everybody who resorts to making such remarks against a person's thoughts posted here.
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/21/05 06:22 AM
"The whole sanctuary service was designed to impress the people with the fact that the things which God has set apart for himself are holy. They were ever to observe the distinction between the sacred and the common. Holy things must be kept holy." RH Feb 4, 1902
Large "numbers" in the church are no indicator of holiness or that one must be on the right side. The largest church in the world is catholicism and they are clearly not following the Bible.
If a person wants to dance, jump, wave hands in the air and basically follow penticostalism, they are free to join a Sunday keeping penticostal church and will be welcome with open arms. But don't bring "unholy" and "common" things into the SDA Church that professes to preach and teach and believe the truth!
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/21/05 06:37 AM
debbie
Romans 14
4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written: “ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ ”
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Posted By: Will
Re: Clapping in church - 04/20/05 07:02 PM
What is pleasing to God? There must be something that He approves of vs. what He does not approve of?
God Bless,
WIll
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 04/20/05 11:47 PM
Debbie, what the heck are you talking about? Joining a Sunday keeping church??? This is not even close to the topic at hand.
-Signs of life within a church are not signs of the Pentecostal religion entering the church, why must we lump a service that has a Holy Spirit filled worship, with Pentecostalism (the religion) I do not see anyone here even hinting about joining Sunday keeping faiths, nor to bend us towards "dancing in the pues!"
By the way: Again no one wants to look at the raising of hands in church??? Interesting...
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/21/05 12:18 AM
Am I beeing ignored or what? I have talked about rasing hands in church. Please go back and read.
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/21/05 05:41 PM
The bible speaks of "lifting up holy hands without wrath or doubting" in prayer. But it does not say it is to be done as a whole group during the worship services to invoke the Holy Spirit power to come on them so they can speak in false tongues. (I'm not saying you said this Daniel--I'm just making a point!)
To me, "holy hands" would be a privilege of the wise spiritual leader, Evangelist or Pastor, not the congregation. How many congregations can say they are "holy?"
The connotation of the lifting up of hands today is in a Pentecostal sense--inviting a false spirit to take control. We are told to stay away from such things, even if they are good (such as the lifting up of hands), if they bring a wrong influence to others. Very few SDA's today will use this method of prayer in our congregations.
Satan has distorted and changed truth just a tiny bit to make it seem attractive and right. We need to be careful and on our guard.
Posted By: Barry
Re: Clapping in church - 04/21/05 05:49 PM
Dear Brother Dave,
I too have asked if anyone out there wanted to tackle lifting hands in church.......with no response. Can you believe a people that proclaim to be "God's Remnant" can't address a simple question as to lifting hands in church????
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/22/05 06:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover on 04-19-2005 at 10:09 PM:
Since you asked again, it depends on if it is asked for. It is really more like what happens at a christian rock concert.
Was Jesus correct in calling a building His Father's house?
Here you go Barry. I'm not going to restate what I've alredy talked about. Maybe I need to put my posts in a bigger font so people will not skip over them.
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 04/22/05 06:27 AM
maybe they are not skipping your posts.
If we are to be a people that worship as they did in the past, are we therefore bound to not wear shoes in the sanctuary, or to follow other so called out dated rules?
We can not have it both ways, either the worship service in God's house is to be rigid towards the sanctuary service of the OT or it is to be viewed as a "work in progress" with the Elders and leaders offering guidance to the church body asto the appropriatness of the worship service.
-Where is it written in scripture that "Childrens story" is a part of the order of service?
-I am not saying that the service needs to be revamped fully, just that if a church expresses worship in song with "Campmeeting style songs" or "Hymnal classics" or "My Reedemer Lives" why are we fighting against this?
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/22/05 06:33 AM
It seems like you are because you keep asking question that I have answered, and keep making statements that are untrue based on what I have posted.
Perhaps we should follow Jesus' NT teaching that the father's house should be a house of prayer and noting more!
Do we really need to be entertained by church? Do we need to entertain to bring people in? Is the truth and good news not enough now?
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 04/21/05 07:46 PM
Who is being entertained? And what is entertainment?
Tom
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Clapping in church - 04/21/05 08:18 PM
I created another topic on lifting up hands in church, therefore, please discuss that one there.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/21/05 11:02 PM
If we are clapping, we are indicating approvuale; IE we are entertained.
What are any reasons, other than we want to be entertained, to deviate from making the father's house a house of prayer? For what other reasons, other than we anre not entertained, should we be changing the church?
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/21/05 11:06 PM
Entertainment
- Something that amuses, pleases, or diverts, especially a performance or show.
- The pleasure afforded by being entertained; amusement: The comedian performed for our entertainment.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 04/21/05 11:48 PM
Indicating approval is is not the same as being entertained. I can approve of a Sabbath sermon but that does not make it entertainment. I can approve of a special music that brings me closer to the Creator but it is not primarily entertainment. I can say amen after a uplifting thought in a sermon, or some people will clap but that does not make what is being said entertainment. While I don't like clapping in church it is not for me to judge the motives of the one clapping.
Redfog
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/22/05 12:31 AM
Perhaps a more direct approch for showing apprciation for what someone presents would be to tell them after. That way, it is not a distraction or interuption in the service.
BTW, I have heard the arguemnt that we need to make church "more entertaining" to bring people in.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/22/05 01:00 AM
Dave,
Have you any experiences from SDA churches which could be called "house of prayer" to share? Most SDA churches have a simmilar if not identical program and order of things happening during sabbath morning, and based on this, the average SDA church could be called "house of preaching" or possibly "house of biblestudy". Prayer is not a main featrure in any ordinary sabbath morning worship service ive been to. I have attended some conferences where a big part of the devotion time was prayer though. SDA churchplanting conferences.
/Thomas
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/22/05 01:07 AM
Debbie
I find your base assumption that whatever the pentecostals do is devil worship and/or a sneak attack on SDA by the devil troubling. The bible calls upon believers to pray with lifted hands as you yourself quoted, but since its done today by pentecostals its "inviting another spirit". Follow the bible and trust God is great enough to protect you from the evil one.
I would also like for you to explain why the evangelist/pastor is holier than the church member on the floor...
/Thomas
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Clapping in church - 04/22/05 01:18 AM
I created a topic that will fit what was said in the last post.
It is called, What is the Purpose of Our Church Programs?
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/22/05 06:02 AM
Thomas, I did not say what the Pentecostals do in general was of the devil. I was speaking of the false "speaking in tongues" which is satanic in origin.
As far as Pastors and leaders in our church, they should be more holy, but you are right, many are not. I imagine there are more holy in the congregation.
I still believe that lifting up holy hands is not something we should pursue in our churches simply because of the huge pentecostal "speaking in tongues" connection which is very big in the USA.
I have seen some pray for others and as they pray, one hand is lifted up to God. I see nothing amiss in this type of prayer but personally I do not do it or care for it. When my husband was in India, a Pastors wife, in praying with the people there, lifted up ONE hand to God while the other was either on the persons head or shoulder while she prayed. This seems reverent but it does not appeal to me personally.
In the Pentecostal churches, people lifting up their hands to receive "the spirit" do so during prayer, during the rock ccm and during the time the speaker is talking...
This should not be in our churches.
Posted By: Neville
Re: Clapping in church - 04/22/05 03:54 PM
Dear Debbie,
Bereans were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they gladly received the truth, and daily searched the scriptures, whether those things are so".
Debbie wrote: Thomas, I did not say what the Pentecostals do in general was of the devil. I was speaking of the false "speaking in tongues" which is satanic in origin.
Neville here: Thanks for your posting, it is quite informative. However, My question is, where do I start to draw a line on theological confusions found in Pentecostantism? My understanding is and has always been that, Babylon does not only refer to Rome alone, but it also refer to other religious bodies which were once pure. Maybe you'd like to unfold your last posting.
I wish you and everyone in the forum a reviving and happy Sabbath.
Neville Appolus
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/22/05 04:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by debbie:
Thomas, I did not say what the Pentecostals do in general was of the devil. I was speaking of the false "speaking in tongues" which is satanic in origin.
This is what you wrote about lifting up holy hands in something you call "pentecostal sence". Notice the area I made bold. It would seem to me that there is more here than what your reply admits... quote:
The connotation of the lifting up of hands today is in a Pentecostal sense--inviting a false spirit to take control. We are told to stay away from such things, even if they are good (such as the lifting up of hands), if they bring a wrong influence to others. Very few SDA's today will use this method of prayer in our congregations.
As far as Pastors and leaders in our church, they should be more holy, but you are right, many are not. I imagine there are more holy in the congregation.
I dissagre with this statement. While it is true that our pastors and other leaders should be holy, so should every believer. It is God who makes things and people holy, not ones employment. quote:
I still believe that lifting up holy hands is not something we should pursue in our churches simply because of the huge pentecostal "speaking in tongues" connection which is very big in the USA.
Do I read you right if I summarise this to "the pentecostals do it and therefore we shouldnt"?
/Thomas
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/22/05 05:26 PM
We are not to go to Babylon to find truth. They have nothing to offer us. We already have the truth of the whole Bible. There may be some things other denominations have in common with us, for instance some believe as we do on the State of the Dead. But that doesn't mean we go to their churches to find truth or to find methods in which to attact people to our church.
Of course there are "sheep in other folds" and God will bless them and bring them to further truth if they are willing and open to His leading.
"Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken? Jer. 18:14
"Just as soon as you begin to think you are big men, and that you are so large that you can comprehend and pick out all that is precious in infidel authors, and leave out all that is vile, then you are wise above that which is written....The devil is right by your side, and the evil angels are there. The devil is a great deal smarter than you are, and you cannot see what he is driving at. He will so cunningly interweave his sentiments with the thoughts of these writers, that it will be iimpossible to distinguish the error which they contain." This Day with God, p. 217
In the above quote Mrs. White is speaking of reading infidel authors but the same principle applies to trying to see what we can "pick and choose" out of Babyon to use in our SDA churches today
5T 292, error is never harmless.
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 04/22/05 08:06 PM
Debbie, EGW herself consulted the writings from "Babylonian" authors. You should see what was in her library!
I think your seriously out of context misapplication of one of her "infidel author" quotes is very inappropriate and quite out of place in this discussion. Do you even know who she was actually refering to when she used the phrase "infidel authors"? If you would read the whole of what she says on that topic you should know. To get a real good idea just look up the word "infidel" in the dictionary...
Tom
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/22/05 08:17 PM
Tom
The infidel is in the beholders eye...
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 04/23/05 06:56 AM
Thomas,
Apparently so... I wondered why I was being given the evil eye....
![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif)
Tom
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 04/23/05 07:20 AM
I still wonder why we do not clap for prayers. If we do it for music, wouldn't it make sence to praise a prayer with the pounding of our hands?
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/23/05 05:22 PM
Tom I have read the "whole" and it is NOT out of context. Perhaps you need to read it again.
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 04/24/05 08:26 AM
OK Debbie, who were the "infidel authors" to which she refered? What did each of them have in common?
Tom
For a long time now there has been a movement to bring all Christian Churches together into one. After all we were warned by Ellen White that churches would unite on points they have in common and wouldnt we realize that they will also unite on PRACTICES they have in common?
Rv:17:13: These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
The Catholic Church has something call "Inculturation" and "Acculturation". Malachi Martin explains Inculturation like this:
"The idea was to adapt so severely to the culture of the alien (one who was not a catholic)that the missionary would aquire the mind of that culture, and would revamp both doctrine and moral practice to fit that alien culture."
This actually means that the Jeuit would try to be as much like the people in the particular church or group that he was seeking to win over to his side as he could, and all the while, hw would be sneaking in catholic doctrines little by little until that church became Catholic in their thinking without even realizing the change. This is one of the tactics that the Jesuits are notorious for.
And then there is another tactic that the Roman Catholic Church uses called "Acculturation". This mean to adapt the practices of your own church -such as your worship format- to the practices of the different cultures that you are seeking to win over to Catholicism.
In this way, they believe, people will begin to feel more "comfortable" with the Catholic Church and perhaps eventually come over to it. For instance, Malachi Martin tells of how in some Catholic gatherings they now serve communion wine in paper cups and have coffee afterwards for socializing. Their bands play blues music- using trombones, kazoos, saxaphones and top it off with drums to add a rhythm foundation. Malachi Martin,The Encounter.
There has been for quite a time now, something called the "Celebration" Movement, which has come into many Chirstian Churhes, and the idea is to have a "traditional" church service, and then also have a "celebration" service where everybody claps and sways and generally acts like Pentecostals. Few know that this movement originated in the Catholic Church. And even fewer know that this originated even before that from witchcraft.
In witchcraft, EVERYTHING is called a "celebration of life". (a term you hear much in Christian Churches now). The reason they regard every thing a celebration is because they are pantheistic in their beliefs and believe God is IN everything... Its where the Catholic Church got its idea of "community". You can go to my website at
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org and click on the Catholic button and read a little about this pantheism in the catholic church... which is just spiritualism.
The Catholics had a Jesuit named Teilhard de Chardin and during the Vatican II they went by Teilhard's teachings of "spiritual evolution". This means that everything in the world is "god" (a pantheistic force in all things) and that eventually everything is now going back into "god"... all humanity is "God".. and will evolve into "oneness" or otherwise known as "The Omega Christ".
At any rate, what we are seeing now is... Roman Catholicism not only joining hands with Protestantism but also with Spiritualism and the world. (their religion has always been of pagan origin but now they are making strides towards making a big deal of publically accepting things like Islam and everything under the sun.)
This is one major way that they will all become "of one mind". Rv:17:13: These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Unfortunately, too many Protestants have no real idea what's going on and they view the whole thing as "being loving" verses "being like a Pharisee and thinking you are better than other religions and so being too afraid to accept and adopt their practices".
The idea is that true Biblical Faith is being watered down bit by bit till it becomes more and more difficult to distinguish a Christian from a worldly person, and not only that but more and more difficult to distinguish a Protestant from a Catholic.
It's really too bad and too sad that so many, even those in prominent church positions will muddy up the issues and just act (empahsis on the word "act") as if it were a matter of preference or a matter of "can't we just act like we are happy in church and clap and lift our hands" when that really isnt the issue at all.
Like I said before, For a long time now there has been a movement to bring all Christian Churches together into one. After all we were warned by Ellen White that churches would unite on points they have in common and wouldnt we realize that they will also unite on PRACTICES they have in common? we really ought to be able to see that and recognize that is what's happening.
...and I REALLY dont believe that Ellen White consulted Babylonian authors on how to conduct business in the 7th Day Adventist church. There's a big difference between her using writings for quotation or educational purposes and using them to consult on how to conduct worship services. (as if everyone doesnt already realize that).
The catholic belief is that celebration means everybody doing the same thing together... thats what Thomas Merton the Monk says. Thats why Catholicism always uses the term "Community". You see if everybody is doing the same thing together as one... it must be "God" flowing through everyone, so they must infiltrate the Protestant Churches with this celebration movement so we are all doing the same thing "as one". Celebration movement uses lots of music, drums, and other "let it all hang out" type stuff.
A Catholic priest named Andrew Greeley tells a story of how things have changed for the Catholic Church, for the purpose of enlarging their congregations:
"In many new Catholic churches , statues, the stations, and the stained glass windows have either been swept away or reduced to diagrams or abstractions that would not offend even the most fundamental Protestant. Reverence and awe have been replaced by often cloying informality; solemnity by 'letting it all hang out' manners. Great music has been replaced by bad psuedo-folk" music... As a part of the final acculturation into American life, it became appropriate to abandon the whole mess, to... eliminate the mysteries and medals, the invocations and the pieties, the blessings and the rosaries, the May crownings and the mumbo jumbo." How to Save the Catholic Church, pg 70,71
And you see now in some Protestant churches they are doing the stations of the cross, and even using rosaries... etc.
The idea is to make protestant churches more catholic and catholic churches more protestant and all the churches more pentecostal... so that it becomes more and more difficult to tell the difference between them. Then finally to bring all to the catholic church after there is no more protest against the differences. Sadly people miss the whole thing and sit argueing about whether or not it is "ok" to lift hands or clap in church.
Kind of like "fiddling while Rome Burns"... or us fiddling and argueing about non-relevant issues, while all the while Rome accomplishing what she wanted to and is infiltrating us with these pentecostal practices... to unite us all on common points of both doctrine and practices in the church. and there's the charismatic movement in the catholic church.
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/24/05 05:57 PM
Websters: Infidel--"One who is not a Christian or opposes Christianity, an unbeliever in respect to a particular religion, one who acknowledges no religious belief, a disbeliever in something specified or understood."
FE 92-94 There is danger in reading from infidel authors
CT 424 Infidel authors must not be used in SDA schools
8T 311 SDA's do not need to seek knowledge from infidel authors
CT 135-6 We are to be constantly onguard against reading of infidel authors
6T 166 Evil results of use of infidel authors in education
CT 135 Infidel authors are inspired by Satan
Babylon
2 SM 118 "The prophet says, "I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils" (Rev 18:1,2). This is the same message that was given by the second angel. Babyon is fallen, "because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14:8). What is that wine?--Her false doctrines. She has given to the world a false sabbath instead of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, and has repeated the falsehood that Satan first told to Eve in Eden--the natural immortality of the soul. Many kindred errors she has spread far and wide, "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
TM 61-2 "It is our individual duty to walk humbly with God. We are not to seek any strange, new message. We are not to think that the chosen ones of God who are trying to walk in the light compose Babylon. The fallen denominational churches are Babylon. Babylon has been fostering poisonous doctrines , the wine of error. This wine of error is made up of false doctrines, such as the natural immortality of the soul, the eternal torment of the wicked, the denial of the pre-existence of Christ prior to His birth in Bethlehem, and advocating and exalting the first day of the week above God's holy and sanctified day. These and kindred errors are presented to the world by the various churches, and thus the Scriptures are fulfilled that say, "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." It is a wrath which is created by false doctrines, and when kings and presidents drink this wine of the wrath of her fornication, they are stirring with anger against those who will not come into harmony with the false and satanic heresies which exalt the false sabbath, and lead men to trample underfoot God's memorial..."
Actually, we need to start another thread if this is a topic members want to discuss.
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 04/24/05 11:45 PM
Debbie,
This need not be a prolonged part of this discussion. It isn't all that complicated. The dictionary definition is a good start. However, look carefully at the two EGW quotes you just posted, including the entire context of each. Does EGW use the phrase "infidel authors" in either of them? If you read the entire passages of the 50 or so places where EGW is using that phrase, can you honestly say that she is on the same topic as the two quotes you have just posted?
You still have not identified a specific infidel author that EGW was referring to. If you did in fact do so you would see how different the topic of the "infidel author" passages really is from the "kindred errors" of the fallen churches of Babylon passages. Your error could lead to a quite different understanding of prophecy that the traditional Adventist understanding of Babylon.
Tom
Posted By: Will
Re: Clapping in church - 04/25/05 12:31 AM
Debbie,
I know there is a topic created on occultism somewhere here on MSDAOL, and I believe that there may be one on celebrations. Actully I think that one is about the willow creek model.
You know just as a side note, we have been having an awesome harvest of souls coming into the church without having to use rock music, no entertainment as in drama, acting out, no risk warren (yes I typed risk) false doctrines and cozy sugar coated hype, and hey could you even believe that no one raises their hands to "receive" the Holy Spirit yet the "proof is in the pudding" and we have the recipe! People are led to Christ by His word, and being converted, not by "oh this church was so cool, they had a rock band, and people were raising their hands. It was so spirit filled".. I believe that I can get the same for $5 at the matinee up the street, and for a few dollars more it includes a hot dog and a coke.
Straight out Bible based Truths leading people to Christ is what its about. I am glad that the Bible is alive and does not need aids, but that people will by hearing His word receive faith, and come to repent and be saved. if God can use a rooster to prach a sermon He can use you to reach those who do not know Christ with the simplicity and piety of using The Bible, an investment which will result in saving your skin, and untold riches in heaven. Dont wait, but act now!
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/25/05 01:54 AM
EWs definition of an infidel author seems to be anyone who writes books which undermines the authority of God and the bible, be it of whatever subject, from theology to mythology and fairy tales. But it would seem this is mostly in the context of autors of school literature, geology is mentioned but I would guess that today she would have written biology instead if one was to be singled out.
/Thomas
quote:
Cold philosophical speculations, and scientific research in which God is not acknowledged, are a positive injury. And the evil is aggravated, when, as is often the case, books placed in the hands of the young, accepted as authority, and depended upon in their education, are from authors avowedly infidel. Throughout all the thoughts presented by these men, their poisonous sentiments are interwoven. The study of such books is like handling black coals; a student cannot be undefiled in mind who thinks along the line of skepticism. {SpTEd 55.1}
The authors of these books, which have sowed the seeds of doubt and infidelity broadcast over the world, have been under the training of the great enemy of God and man, the acknowledged head of principalities and powers, the ruler of the darkness of this world. The word that God has spoken concerning them is, They "became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools;" "because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful." They rejected divine truth in its simplicity and purity for the wisdom of this world. Whenever books by these infidel authors are given the precedence, and the word of God is made secondary, a class of students will be sent out of the schools no better fitted for the service of God than they were before they received their education. {SpTEd 55.2}
It is not for want of evidence that men doubt divine truth; they are not infidels through ignorance of the character of the word of God. But through sin the whole human organism is deranged; the mind is perverted; the imagination
56
corrupted. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet slide imperceptibly into sin. And so it is that many hate the Bible. Some would not care if there was not a Bible in the world. When the Son of God was on trial, the Jews cried out, 'Away with him, crucify him," because his pure life and holy teaching convicted them of sin and condemned them; and for the same reason, many in their hearts cry out against the word of God. Many, even of the children and youth, have learned to love sin; they hate reflection, and the thought of God is a sting to their conscience. It is because the human heart is inclined to evil that it is so dangerous to sow the seeds of skepticism in young minds. {SpTEd 55.3}
quote:
Half-hearted Christians are worse than infidels; for their deceptive words and non-committal position may lead many astray. The infidel shows his colors. The luke-warm Christian deceives both parties. He is neither a good worldling nor a good Christian. Satan uses him to do a work that no one else can do. {SpM 260.2}
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/25/05 06:37 AM
Tom, the principle of going to the world for theology or to Babylon, of going to Egypt or gods of Ekron, or infidel authors....all have a common thread. God has warned us to stay away from these things which lead to watering down the distinct truths of the Bible.
EW 124 "If God has any new light to communicate, He will let His chosen and beloved understand it, without their going to have their minds enlightened by hearing those who are in darkness and error. I was shown the necessity of those who believe that we are having the last message of mercy, being separate from those who are daily imbibing new errors. I saw that neither young nor old should attend their meetings; for it is wrong to thus encourage them while they teach error that is a deadly poison to the soul and teach for doctrines the commandments of men."
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 04/25/05 09:47 PM
Debbie,
I would agree that there is a common
thread, just as there is a common thread in all things in opposition to God's way or sin. But threads are very thin, break easily and don't hold much weight.
Thomas has given some very significant quotes for comparison and the very last one is most telling of what EGW was talking about and the precise distinction that is what I believe to be the error of your liberal connection of two different topics. Read it again. "The infidel shows his colors." The errors of Babylon are that of a clever counterfeiter attempting to deceive, yes even the saints, by diluting and corrupting faith and making the counterfeit appear as the real thing. It's the confusion of empty or false religion.
Apply the definition of "infidel" and what EGW has said should leave no doubt that she is talking about writers, scholars, philosophers who not only have no regard for Judeo-Christian teaching, but were in fact openly hostile to it. They make no pretense of religion and were openly anti-religious.
The problem that EGW was addressing was the forces within society and especially within Adventism that wanted the education of our youth to pattern the great secular universities that actively encouraged study and reading of the writings of the great minds of the day and from history. The 18th century and well into the 19th Century was the Age of Enlightenment when secularism, humanism and intellectualism dominated philosophy and education. It was the Age of Reason. The "great" minds of philosophy most frequently were agnostic at best and hostile atheists at worst. They were most frequently harshly critical of religion and the Bible. And there were many in America who were sensitive to being perceived as lagging behind Europe intellectually and in matters of education and pushed such ideas. So these ideas were of great currency in EGW's time.
Given that historical reality, here are few of the "infidel authors" that EGW could have had in mind - Locke, Hume, Voltaire, Rousseau, Kant, and going back to the classics of Plato, Socrates and Aristotle. The philosophy of Karl Marx was gaining much attention after he and Engels wrote the "Communist Manifesto" in 1848. Charles Darwin published "Origin of the Species" in 1859.
There was a growing American secularist movement supportive of these intellectual and "scientific" free-thought philosophies. They proudly called themselves "freethinkers". (See "Freethinkers - A History of American Secularism" by Susan Jacoby.) A prominent number of the founding fathers of our country were avowed deists and very skeptical of organized religion. Thomas Paine "vociferously rejected Judeo-Christian tenets and scriptures" and his "Age of Reason" was "a no-hold's-barred attack on the veracity of the Bible." An American intellectual known as that "Great Agnostic" was a contemporary of EGW who drew large crowds to hear his denunciation of the Bible and religion. The name of his biography is "American Infidel: Robert G. Ingersoll".
Yes, a common thread perhaps, but a world of obvious difference.
Tom
[ April 25, 2005, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Tom Wetmore ]
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/25/05 11:32 PM
Why is Newton in the list? Question asked in light of Marks thread in the prophesy area.
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Clapping in church - 04/26/05 12:53 AM
Oops!! Good catch Thomas. My mistake. Thanks.
Newton is among those listed as influencing the Age of Enlightenment by his earlier development of the scientific method as the foundation of his Natural Philosophy. Without thinking about it sufficiently I left him lumped in with the wrong crowd. I have edited him out of my post since he really doesn't fit in the group of "infidel authors".
I should clarify that Newton was reputed to be in fact a very devote man and earnest Bible student. I suppose the one "controversial" idea in that sphere of thought was his rejection of trinitarianism. One might disagree with the aspect of his mechanical theory that casts God as a distant engineer, but his differing theology clearly doesn't put him in the infidel camp.
Tom
![[Embarrassed]](images/icons/blush.gif)
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Clapping in church - 04/26/05 05:01 AM
If this side-topic is going to continue, shouldn't it be done as a new topic, or is it relevant to this topic?
Posted By: Jeff
Re: Clapping in church - 04/26/05 07:41 AM
Daryl, do you mean by side topic, the discussion of “infidel authors”? If so, I think it is relevant to the discussion as a sub-issue, rather than a side topic.
Speaking of the discussion of “infidel authors”,
Quote: posted by Debbie| In the above quote Mrs. White is speaking of reading infidel authors but the same principle applies to trying to see what we can "pick and choose" out of Babyon to use in our SDA churches today |
Tom, you’re right about who the “infidels” are, but Debbie’s point that we shouldn't “pick and choose” from Babylon in the same way that we shouldn’t pick and choose out of “infidel authors” is a reasonable comparison. World of obvious difference notwithstanding, it doesn't really matter who the infidel authors are to make the point or by what means they dispense error. They could be just about anyone who disagrees with our theology. I didn’t take it that she was trying to make EGW comments re infidel authors link the two as much as just saying that as it is unwise to pick and choose from infidel authors, it is also unwise to pick and choose from “Babylon”—both can lead to error.
Also, I’m lost on the point about it’s impact on Adventist’s traditional interpretation of prophecy. I don’t see where the one leads to the other.
Personally, in church, I’d rather not see clapping as applause. But not because someone might get puffed up about their performance. I know that the “amens” are supposed to sort of signify “I was blessed by that”, or, “I agree with that, thank you”, but it’s about as easy for someone to begin to expect an amen as it is for applause. Amens can be just another form of applause. But I oppose clapping more because clapping just seems too rowdy. I like the traditional service, but that’s me.
Jeff
Posted By: Neville
Re: Clapping in church - 04/26/05 10:20 AM
Dear Debbie,
"Bereans were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they gladly received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things are so".
Thank you so much for your submission, your courage is indeed worth emulating; courage to stand when champions are few. Allow me dear friend to stand with you in defense of the cause of truth.
The bible in the book of Psalms 77:13 KJV reads, "Thy way, O God, [is] in the sanctuary: who [is so] great a God as [our] God?".
Brethren, the contest between good and evil; controversy between Christ and Satan is over WORSHIP(not yelling, trying to add an emphasis). This war began right in heaven, "And there was war in heaven" (Rev 12:7) KJV.
Satan was filled great fury after he was thrown out of heaven, and his intention were to mar this planet earth with sin, fill it to the fullest with woe and ruin the life of humanity. Regardless of Satan’s endeavors to deface the character of God upon this earth, by making man to trample and make void the laws of God; God had a light shining in darkness in the lives of His faithful. Friends, we got to stand up like Abel and slaughter a lamb for worship and not burn vegetables. We cannot bring strange fire to worship like Nadab and Abihu did.
God tells us clearly from His Holy Word that HIS WAY, notice not His ways, but His WAY is in the Sanctuary. Ps 77:13 KJV. So if we want to have a proper understanding of how we should worship, the typical sanctuary service is there as our landmark.
Proverbs 22:28 KJV "Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set".
"Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where [is] the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk [therein]". Jeremiah 6:16 KJV
Notice, there are many ways out there of worship in the Protestant and Pentecostal churches, some they shout, clap and lift their hands, some with music instruments and they have a bedlam of noise. But they that shall find rest for their souls, are they that shall find a "good way and walk therein".
Question: Do we see Israel clapping hands in the Sanctuary?
Sister White has the following to say, "We are in the great day of atonement, and the sacred work of Christ for the people of God that is going on at the present time [1882] in the heavenly sanctuary, should be our constant study" (Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 520).
In Rev 10 we see God toward the end of the close of time calling Seventh Day Adventist Church into existence. In Revelation 14:6-12 He empowers them with a peculiar and distinct message.
In conclusion I would appeal to all members to read Testimonies, Vol 5, p. 491-500.
Search the scriptures daily, like noble Bereans.
Neville Appolus
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/26/05 01:57 PM
Just read the first 1.5 pages of this thread again. I had forgoten, I suspect many of you have too. Maybe it would be good for more to retrace the ground already covered in this thread.
/Thomas
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/26/05 02:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
...and hey could you even believe that no one raises their hands to "receive" the Holy Spirit yet the "proof is in the pudding" and we have the recipe! People are led to Christ by His word, and being converted, not by "oh this church was so cool, they had a rock band, and people were raising their hands. It was so spirit filled"..
Is there no positive way a church could be "spirit filled"? Was Jesus wrong when he said that it was better for the diciples that he ascended to heaven so that they could recieve the holy spirit instead?
quote:
Straight out Bible based Truths leading people to Christ is what its about. I am glad that the Bible is alive and does not need aids, but that people will by hearing His word receive faith, and come to repent and be saved.
This is the truth. Lets try to stick with the bible and dont throw things out of it becourse the devil has succeded to produce some spectacular copies. Look more to Jesus and less at humans (such as the pentecostals).
/Thomas
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/26/05 02:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff:
Tom, you’re right about who the “infidels” are, but Debbie’s point that we shouldn't “pick and choose” from Babylon in the same way that we shouldn’t pick and choose out of “infidel authors” is a reasonable comparison. World of obvious difference notwithstanding, it doesn't really matter who the infidel authors are to make the point or by what means they dispense error. They could be just about anyone who disagrees with our theology. I didn’t take it that she was trying to make EGW comments re infidel authors link the two as much as just saying that as it is unwise to pick and choose from infidel authors, it is also unwise to pick and choose from “Babylon”—both can lead to error.
With that definition of "infidel authors", some posts and thus posters in this thread could qualify as "infidel" by those who disagree with them...
/Thomas
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/26/05 02:35 PM
Nevil
Two questions.
A) How does your post relate to the discussion or thread name?
B) Can you give an example of how a proper SDA church service should look like, as detaljed as nessessary. What are we alloved to do? What is forbiden? How do you suggest we sacrafice the lamb as Abel did?
/Thomas
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/27/05 06:26 AM
Thomas, why don't you do a study of the SOP and find out how we know the Holy Spirit has been poured out--what the characteristics are. I would be interested to know.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Clapping in church - 04/27/05 06:38 AM
Do people here actually think that you need to raise your hands and/or clap your hands in order to receive the Holy Spirit, or as a result of receiving the Holy Spirit?
Posted By: Will
Re: Clapping in church - 04/26/05 07:04 PM
I hope that is not the case Daryl.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/26/05 07:10 PM
Daryl
No
/thomas
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/26/05 07:42 PM
Debbie, since you asked, Ill post this...
quote:
As the others knelt for prayer, I bowed with them, trembling, and after a few had prayed, my voice arose in prayer before I was aware of it. In that moment the promises of God appeared to me like so many precious pearls that were to be received only for the asking. As I prayed, the burden and agony of soul that I had so long endured, left me, and the blessing of the Lord descended upon me like the gentle dew. I praised God from the depths of my heart. Everything seemed shut out from me but Jesus and His glory, and I lost consciousness of what was passing around me. {LS 38.1}
The Spirit of God rested upon me with such power that I was unable to go home that night. When I awakened to realization, I found myself cared for in the house of my uncle, where we had assembled for the prayer meeting. Neither my uncle nor my aunt enjoyed religion, although the former had once made a profession, but had since backslidden. I was told that he had been greatly disturbed while the power of God rested upon me in so special a manner, and had walked the floor, sorely troubled and distressed in his mind. {LS 38.2}
When I was first struck down, some of those present were greatly alarmed, and were about to run for a physician, thinking that some sudden and dangerous indisposition had attacked me; but my mother bade them let me alone, for it was plain to her, and to the other experienced Christians, that it was the wondrous power of God that had prostrated me. When I did return home, on the following day, a great change had taken place in my mind. It seemed to me that I could hardly be the same person that left my father's
39
house the previous evening. This passage was continually in my thoughts: "The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want." Ps. 23:1. My heart was full of happiness as I softly repeated these words. {LS 38.3}
quote:
We all knelt in earnest prayer to God in her behalf. We claimed the promise, "Ask, and ye shall receive," John 16:24. The blessing of God attended our prayers, and we had the assurance that God was willing to heal the afflicted one. One of the brethren present cried out, "Is there a sister here who has the faith to go and take her by the hand, and bid her arise in the name of the Lord?" {LS 74.2}
Sister Frances was lying in the chamber above, and before he ceased speaking Sister Curtis was on her way to the stairs. She entered the sickroom with the Spirit of God upon her, and taking the invalid by the hand, said, "Sister Frances, in the name of the Lord arise, and be whole." New life shot through the veins of the sick girl, a holy faith took possession of her, and obeying its impulse, she rose from her bed, stood upon her feet, and walked the room, praising God for her recovery. She was soon dressed, and came down into the room where we were assembled,
75
her countenance lighted up with unspeakable joy and gratitude. {LS 74.3}
Its not much of a study, more like an observation. And we have covered this ground before in other threads and can continue to do so in the same threads.
/Thomas
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/26/05 10:43 PM
Those are beautiful quotes Thomas, I really appreciate you posting them.
I believe we can safely say that in the SOP there are not any quotes that say applause/clapping is okay on the Sabbath but there are several that say applause is not appropriate, especially if the applause is for the Pastor.
This thread has overlapped with the raising of hands issue that is discussed on another thread. The "raising of hands" is not quite as clear as the clapping issue and probably should be discussed more over there.
Thomas, I have another request. I like the quotes you presented. Would you be willing to start another thread with them listed first? I think it would be good to find out just how the Holy Spirit works in our lives. This can be in connection with the "raising of hands" but the "raising of hands" is sort of a side-issue somewhat to the issue of the qualities of the Holy Spirit in the life, or how the Holy Spirit affects our lives.
If we study this issue out, I think the "raising of hands" issue might be resolved.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 04/27/05 12:19 AM
In the first passage, we learn that an experienced christian will know the acts that God does even when the nonbeliever is left confused and scared. The secound passage is about great faith, for you got to have faith in God and know His will before you do such an act.
I wont call posting them a study for I looked at no other passages, and likely wont have time to do such a study in the following weeks either.
I dont know about the works of EW but the foundation for clapping in worship in the bible is not the strongest. The issue of lifiting hands is quite contrary much more clear than that of clapping for we have 9 examples in favour of it and none against. Whatever is unclear of that says none about the bible but some about the oppinions of people.
As for starting a new thread about the Holy Spirits works in our lives, if it is for me to start it, I would found it on scripture alone. The raising of hands question is only in doubt due to your insistance of mixing it with "recieving the holy spirit". The two are never (directly) connected in the bible and therefore it ought not be here either. The Holy Spirit is given in prayer. Maybe an indirect connection could be claimed if lifting hands in prayer was the standard way to pray in those days. I do not know...
I will also say that I am a bit supprised at the reaction here. Lifting hands in prayer souldnt be done becourse its too pentecostal even though its strong biblical prcedence, while being struck down by the Holy Spirit in such a way that relatives wants to call the doctors is not? I clearly do not know what pentecostalism is all about yet...
/Thomas
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 04/27/05 12:56 AM
Thomas, you don't have to start a new thread, it was only a suggestion. I thought everyone might want to study this issue more by contributing Bible and SOP so that we might gain a balanced picture of the truth.
From my own limited study the Holy Spirit chooses where He will come and go. We do not direct the Holy Spirit, He does the directing regardless of what we might desire.
My husband and son just spent three weeks helping with evangelistic meetings in India. Of the six simultaneous meetings going on (with many Bible workers working months before and still working today) there was a wonderful reaping of over 33,000 souls baptized!!
Churches are being built over there right now. I believe we are seeing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in a mighty way, even the latter rain being poured out in India. It is happening right now and more plans are being made to hold even more evangelistic meetings in that Country.
The harvest is ripe!! The Holy Spirit is working in a mighty way.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Clapping in church - 06/05/05 04:26 PM
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 06/05/05 08:24 PM
Excellent piece John, thanks for the link.
Redfog
Posted By: John H.
Re: Clapping in church - 06/06/05 12:34 AM
Sure thing. I sent that link out to some local folks too, and got this interesting response from a fellow who's from Zambia (Africa) --
quote:
Thanks for the article, actually in Zambia hand clapping in church is unknown, we respond by saying "amen!" after a song or message. It is here [in the U.S.] where I have come to experience some of these pentecostal tendencies.
I wrote back and told him that's not so surprising, really -- it seems to be the so-called "advanced" nations where we see a lot of these erroneous things being brought into the church. The U.S., Canada, Europe, Australia, etc.
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 06/06/05 02:37 AM
Interesting article, the use of scripture is limited, and does not shed light either for or against the Church to utter Amens, or with regards to clapping.
-I was at a wedding 2 weeks ago, and when the Priest presented the newly wedded couple, the church was filled with applause. Was this to glorify man???? My hands were clapping with joy, as we as a church praised God for this newly wed couple.
-The article is very opinionated and does not open my eyes for nor against clapping.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 06/06/05 04:55 AM
If in fact we were sending our praise to God with the clapping of hands I would be less opposed to it however I have never seen it used that way. It is always used after a performance of some sort. I've never seen anyone clap after the word of God is read or after a quote from the SOP.
Redfog
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 06/23/05 03:20 AM
no contradictions to my post of June 5? that is over 2 weeks ago? where have all the posters gone?
-There is a sound that is more sad than that of a church filled with Amens and clapping hands...That is an empty church!
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 06/23/05 04:18 AM
Tough I have not seen this, I have heard a dozen or so recordings where the preacher would say something simmilar to this "put your hands together and thank the Lord". Quite similar to where some other pastors may ask for an Amen, and yet some other pastors may assume the church is fast asleap (or be preaching to a northern european congregation) and ask nothing at all...
/Thomas
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 06/23/05 04:41 PM
Redfog is correct--many times it is the Pastors who are encouraging people to clap.
Dan, we have exhausted this subject and I don't plan to repeat myself. I have submitted quotes from Mrs. White speaking about clapping and all are against the practice.
I am a musician and once after the Postlude in Church, several people clapped. I just looked at them and shook my head no and they stopped. I was not playing to entertain church members but to glorify God as well as to end the Service. They never again clapped although they would stay in the Sanctuary to listen and say a hearty AMEN afterwards. Many who clap often do not know that it isn't acceptable to do this in the Sanctuary.
If the Pastors would just be brave enough to get up and ask the audience not to clap, this would put a stop to the practice.
Thomas, there are plenty of people who regularly sleep during the church service. To have clapping in order to wake them up is not according to what God would want. Unfortunately many do not get enough rest during the week and others work so hard during the week that when Sabbath comes, as soon as they relax, they tend to fall asleep. It is too bad because they miss a great blessing. It reminds me of the three disciples who fell asleep when Jesus asked them to stay awake and pray. We are to "watch and pray" which doesn't include sleeping, especially during a church service but this is off topic I suppose.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 06/24/05 01:30 AM
Debbie,
It seems you totally missed my pun about the quiet churches... Anyway, my post was just trying to make the point that some people are trying to give the glory to God by clapping. Maybe that wouldnt be the case in your church but in a place where the church culture is such that Amens and clappings go hand in hand with the same purpose, it would be acceptable with the post redfrog made. Whatever is done in faith... and so forth.
/Thomas
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 06/24/05 07:31 AM
If the culture of a country was such that clapping was for God's glory then maybe it would be appropriate but at least in any place I've ever been clapping is always for the glory of the performance. Clapping in church is nothing more than a carry over of the secular practice of offering praise for a performer. We clap after a great play in sports, a great political speech or a musical performance. We never clap after a scripture reading or prayer. I think most of us when we witness the awesome power of God we tend to be silent, not noisy and clapping. When I'm moved by scripture I'm silent and reflective, when I'm backpacking and see the power of a thunderstorm on a mountain ridge or snow flakes on a ducks back I'm moved to silence at the power and wonder of the Creator. When I see the beauty of a sunrise I whisper a silent word of thanks for another day.
Redfog
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 06/24/05 07:59 AM
But Thomas, I did "catch on" to what you said in your post. Because I didn't say something about it doesn't mean I didn't see it.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 06/24/05 01:18 PM
Debbie
If you had written nothing of it, I wouldnt have made my post thinking you had missed it. But you did write about it
quote:
Thomas, there are plenty of people who regularly sleep during the church service. To have clapping in order to wake them up is not according to what God would want.
Redfrog
Give me one country where church culture and secular culture is one and a same.. point is that these people do clapp after a bibleverse so evidently some people do so.
/Thomas
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 06/24/05 03:57 PM
I've never seen (or heard) anyone clapping after a Bible reading or prayer. I think people find that to be irreverent. How is it any more or less irreverent than clapping after a song intended to praise God? Or maybe there is just less to praise about the presenter of a Bible reading and prayer than a singer or musician.
Adventist Church culture should never be the same as secular culture!
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 06/24/05 08:39 PM
Thomas that is my point, church culture and secular culture are and should be different. As I see it clapping is secular culture infiltrating sacred culture. Maybe there are churches where the preachers do call for clapping for the Lord, but are they really clapping for the Lord or clapping to the preacher for what he has just said? I'm not the one who can judge however I know that from my fairly traditional SDA background in the US that clapping was always associated with a performance of some sort and the clapping was directed to the performer. Even in our conservative church clapping has made very slight inroads and always it is after a outstanding musical piece and never seems directed at anyone other than the performer. If you watch the people clapping they are looking right at the performer, they are not looking up like to God or down as in prayer, they are directing their praise to the performer.
"Be still, and know that I AM God" Psalm 46:10
Redfog
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 06/25/05 12:58 AM
Dave
Youve not seen it and Ive not seen it, however Ive heard it happen. Praise the Lord by clapping. If you would ever vissit a church where people are clapping after the reading of scripture, will you say to those people that they are insincere in their praise? Will you say that they are irreverent in their praise? I couldnt do that for I cannot read hearts. What about you?
Redfrog
My point is that there are different church cultures. Even though we are both SDAs, I wouldnt be supprised if there is some cultural differences between your church and mine simply becourse they are in different countries.
quote:
Maybe there are churches where the preachers do call for clapping for the Lord, but are they really clapping for the Lord or clapping to the preacher for what he has just said?
This is a very good question. It seems your default answere would be that they are clapping to the preacher. Next time you hear a solid "Amen" said in your church, take a look at the people, are they looking at the preacher or are they looking towards heaven? Are they giving a spoken clapping to God or to the preacher?
/Thomas
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 06/25/05 01:35 AM
I think that most people are sincear; but I also think that many people are misguided.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 06/25/05 01:46 AM
Thomas you do make some good points about cultures and the SDA church. Even here in the US there are differences from area to area in how things are done.
While it is true that when a person says "amen" they are also looking at the speaker (or singer) I think it is also true that those saying it are simply saying they agree with what is being said. And I've never been to a secular event and heard anyone say amen!
Clapping in this context is applauding and applauding, according to my dictionary means "to praise".
Amen means "it is so".
I wonder if on this issue it is not better to err on the side of caution. This is not like the women's ordination issue. I've never heard of anyone being called into clapping
Redfog
Posted By: Jan
Re: Clapping in church - 06/25/05 02:32 AM
I have to say that I have done and supported things which I later came to believe were wrong. We are all learning as we go along. Sometimes we just go along because everyone is doing it so it must be alright; we don't give it any thought. We need to pray for guidance on these issues.
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 06/25/05 03:39 AM
Jan , you are so right... I have sat in church for years and not said boo to many preachers and speakers about the word that they have presented. For many years I have sat in my pew and not verbalized very much durring church, not clapped, not done too much at all with the exception of "being there". Now I am a verbal, expressive person, and when I clap or say amen or say "that's right", etc...
-BY NO MEANS do I respond in church by saying Amen out loud when the preacher coaxes "and everone said ____??? I find being prompted to say amen, clap etc... as not beiong needed, but guess what! That is just my "opinion" ...
Can I hear an amen???
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 08/10/05 05:27 AM
no amen's ??
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 08/10/05 08:06 AM
Neither do I say anything when the Preacher is preaching the sermon. Sometimes I will say a quiet "amen" but that is all. Often we are too busy looking up Bible texts.
But after the sermon, I nearly always let the Pastor know that I appreciated his sermon. At the very least, I will thank him for it.
There does not need to be any response necessarily--often just eye contact with the speaker lets him know that we are listening to what he has to say. And if one is wearing a smile occasionally, this also let's him know that we are responding to what he is saying. And if we are busy looking up in our Bibles the texts of the study that he presents, this also lets him know that we are awake and listening.
But unfortunately it seems easy for some people to nod off during the sermon. Some churches have this problem worse than others. I cannot imagine speaking to many people in church and seeing them nodding off while I am speaking. Seems such an insult to the Speaker.
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 11/05/05 06:50 AM
There is something worse than a church that has the sounds of clapping! A church that has no sound at all.
Beachbum...
quote:
Originally posted by Beachbum:
There is something worse than a church that has the sounds of clapping! A church that has no sound at all.
That snappy little saying might sound cute but that doesnt necessarily make it so.
When the Church lacks true godliness it feels the need to supply the vaccuum with a false glitter so as to cover up the embarrasing silence.
When the Catholic Church lacks a true connection with God it feels the need to replace it with all manner of false substitutes such as saying the rosary, candles, crosses all over the place, repetitive prayers, and so on...
The things that fill up the vaccuum be it more noise or whatever, do not necessarily indicate the Church is better off...
Luke 11:
23: He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
24: When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25: And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26: Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
If Jesus and His presence are lacking in the church and He is made to "stand outside the door, knocking" for admittance... the solution isnt to supply the lack with all sorts of ornamentals and artificial excitement. The solution is to let Jesus in. And to obtain the things He says are lacking.
Revelation 3:
17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Claudia
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 11/12/05 02:52 AM
Wow, that is some Philosophical reply. I do not see my statement as being a "snappy little saying".
-Seriously! Where do we get off in "JUDGING" the reasons behind anyones worship???????????? We so easily attack the Catholic service!
-Yes Jesus is at the door "KNOCKING" lets answer his call!
...answer His call to do what, exactly? (in your opinion)
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 11/14/05 01:46 AM
?????
Claudia, what are you getting at ???????
-"please no clapping, we might wake up the sleeping elders"
Posted By: Davros
Re: Clapping in church - 11/14/05 03:54 AM
I find more sleeping members than elders in ym church, but then that is only one church. Now waking members would take much more than clapping. I think the second comming is about all that would do that.
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 11/17/05 04:33 AM
Yikes! Dave that does not sound too good! Maybe an "alarm clock" sounding could stir a few of them?
-Keep the faith, it surely can't be long now!
Posted By: calvin
Re: Clapping in church - 11/19/05 06:33 AM
In African-American churches we clap and shout amen. There have always been ethnic and cultures diferences in worship. I can't turn and say your 'praise' is too undignified for divine worship. I dont know what He's done for you. He may have delivered you from something that causes you, like the man stuck at the gate beautiful for 30 years... you run leaping and shouting for joy. If we praise Him with all of our being it's still not enough for all He does for us
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 11/19/05 06:38 AM
AMEN Calvin, that has to be the best, most realistic and honest post on this thread! Thank you and God Bless you! (I let out a single hand clap! to express my resounding praise to God for your post)
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 11/20/05 10:37 PM
You clapped with one hand? Amazing
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 11/21/05 11:29 PM
'single hand' clap or single 'hand clap'?
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 11/22/05 07:17 AM
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 11/23/05 06:16 AM
LOL
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 11/25/05 06:26 AM
![[Off Topic]](graemlins/offtopic.gif)
I know of a one handed bee keeper. Someone asked me how he could do the very labor intensive work of bee keeping with only one hand. I told them maybe he used a hired hand....
![[Rolling Over For Laughter]](graemlins/ROFL.gif)
Sorry, I know that was bad,
Redfog
One of the biggest problems is that the real reason behind all of this celebration movement and clapping in the church is that there is a great movement to ecumenise all of the Churches in order to remove the distinguishing marks between them. Just as Ellen White warned, there would be a movement to unite on points in common.
The clapping and swaying is one of the ways of making it where all the churches are doing the same thing, including pentecostals, seventh day adventists and other christian churches. Then of course there will be the Sunday movement...
The catholic church is making itself appear more protestant, the protestant churches is making itself appear less different then the catholic church and all of them together are adding on the pentecostal-like clapping and shouting. It is all in reality being done to unite. While God is calling His people out of Babylon and warning them to keep His commandments, Satan is bringing in this false revival movement to unite all of the churches.
And then of course "after the fact" people are conjuring up all these "good sounding" and "plausible sounding" reasons as to why it is suddenly a good thing to hop around in church and shout and carry on and clap.... when that really isnt even the issue.
Its like taking a pig and trying to put lipstick on it. But the psychological effect Satan wants it all to have is still effective... unity and less and less difference between the denominations. I cringe every time I drive by these other denominational churches and see "Celebration" on their church signs. Most Christians dont put two and two together though, unfortunately. They cannot see the big picture of whats really taking place.
Claudia
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 11/25/05 03:40 PM
That is absured to state that we who clap, raise hands or even move a little to a song are "becoming one with the Sunday Churches or with the Catholic Church".
-If conforming with the other Churches were an issue then we as SDAs need to look at the origins of our "traditional worship service" Who introduced congregational singing?? Answer John Huss (SDA? NO Ctaholic? YES) Offering being collected on Sabbath? The arrangement of the pues, hymn books, Preacher raised above the congregation, wearing ties, service from 11 am to 12 noonish. Not raising hands, lack of respect in the sanctuary, these are some very important issues that we could examine and bring condemnation upon those that do these things...
-Blanket statements against "Celebration" are not what God wants from us, for throughout Scripture we see a joy of worship, a joy in the Lord, a serious relationship with Him. Why do we (SDA) have such a paranoia of Worship? This is not to say let everything go, we must be responsible to understand the motives and direction that the Worship service is towards. Do we Celebrate peoples Anniversaries? Birthdays? Graduations? Weddings? ALL THE MORE REASON we should be Celebrating Sabbath! I look forward to Sabbath as a special Holy day, one where my family comes together to Worship Him!...
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 11/25/05 08:04 PM
This is the prayer of Jesus:
quote:
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
Why is this prayer of Jesus nowdays attributed to the devil?
/Thomas
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 11/26/05 01:26 AM
Thomas I'm just an uneducated apiarist, can you expand the meaning and question of the last post?
Redfog
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 11/26/05 02:25 AM
Rf
Its in relation to what claudia wrote in this thread and others have voiced at other places. The idea that unity among christians is the first step towards persecution of SDA etc...
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 11/26/05 04:21 AM
Claudia is 100% right. Anyone who studies what is happening in the Protestant Churches can see it clearly. However, many are blind.
Mrs. White has clearly stated we are not to resort to applause/clapping in our churches.
PERIOD!!
Posted By: Will
Re: Clapping in church - 11/26/05 05:42 AM
Good to see you Deb
You are absolutely correct, Sister White warned against applause in a church service because it exalts a person.
I posted the entire chapter inorder for us to grasp what she said, and why she said it.
quote:
Chap. 16 - Danger of Applause
I have been shown that great caution should be used, even when it is necessary to lift a burden of oppression from men and women, lest they lean to their own wisdom and fail to make God their only dependence. It is not safe to speak in praise of persons or to exalt the ability of a minister of Christ. In the day of God, very many will be weighed in the balance and found wanting because of exaltation. I would warn my brethren and sisters never to flatter persons because of their ability, for they cannot bear it. Self is easily exalted, and, in consequence, persons lose their balance. I say again to my brethren and sisters: If you would have your souls clean from the blood of all men, never flatter, never praise the efforts of poor mortals; for it may prove their ruin. It is unsafe, by our words and actions, to exalt a brother or sister, however apparently humble may be his or her deportment. If they really possess the meek and lowly spirit which God so highly esteems, help them to retain it. This will not be done by censuring them nor by neglecting to properly appreciate their true worth. But there are few who can bear praise without being injured. {3T 185.1}
Some ministers of ability who are now preaching present truth, love approbation. Applause stimulates them, as the
186
glass of wine does the inebriate. Place these ministers where they have a small congregation which promises no special excitement and which provokes no decided opposition, and they will lose their interest and zeal, and appear as languid in the work as the inebriate when he is deprived of his dram. These men will fail to make real, practical laborers until they learn to labor without the excitement of applause.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 11/26/05 06:28 AM
Thank you Will for posting these quotes. They are priceless!
The Real purpose behind the Celebration Movement
Inculturation:
One of the major activities of the Jesuits involved something called "Inculturation".
Malachi Martin explains it like this:
"The idea was to adapt so severely to the culture of the alien (one who was not a Catholic) that the missionary would aquire the mind of that culture, and would revamp both doctrine and moral practice to fit that alien culture." -The Jesuits, Malachi Martin
This actually means that the Jesuit would try to be as much like the people in the particular group that he was seeking to win over to his side- as he could. But all the while, he was sneaking in Catholic doctrines, little by little, until the church or group became Catholic in their thinking- without even realizing it! This is one of the tactics that the Jesuits are notorious for.
Acculturation:
And then there is another tactic that the Roman Catholic church is using called "Acculturation". This is something that means to adapt the practices of your own church- such as your worship format- to the practices of the different cultures or denominations that you are seeking to win over to Catholicism.
In this way, they believe, people will feel "comfortable" in the Catholic church and perhaps eventually join the catholic faith. For instance, Malachi Martin, former Jesuit, tells of how in some Catholic churches now they have coffee afterwards for "socialization time". Their bands play "Blues music- using trombones, kazoos, saxaphones and top it off with drums to add a rhythmic foundation." -The Encounter, Malachi Martin
And a Catholic priest, Andrew Greeley, tells a story of how things have changed in the Catholic church, for the purpose of enlarging their congregations:
"In many new Catholic churches, statutes, the stations (of the cross), and the stained glass windows have either been swept away or reduced to the diagrams or abstractions that would not offend the most fundamental protestant. Reverence and awe have been replaced by often cloying informality; solemnity by 'letting it all hang out' manners. Great music has been replaced by bad pseudo-folk music... As part of the final phase of our acculturation into American life, it became appropriate to abandon the whole mess, to... eliminate the mysteries and the medals, the invocations and the pieties, the blessings and the rosaries, the May crownings and the mumbo jumbo." -How to Save the Catholic Church, Andrew Greeley
Then we see people in our own Adventist churches complaining because some of our churches have adapted by doing the Eucharist, selling rosaries in our hospitals, doing the stations of the cross... then there is the celebration movement.
I'll come back if I can and explain the celebration tie-in to you, and what it is they are 'REALLY' celebrating and, the incorporation of the Charismatic Spiritualism Movement into the churches.
Celebration Part 2
Usually we associate the word "celebration" with having a party or a general "high time". But in the Catholic mind, the word "celebration" means something else entirely.
I have done extensive research on the subject. In the Book "How to Save the Catholic Church" by Roman Catholic Priest, Andrew Greeley, the word "celebration" is used over and over. First we need to understand that EG White warned that the Alpha of the pantheism in our own church would wax worse and worse into the omega, and that few would recognize this spiritualism for what it really was- in the various forms it would take.
"...the natural world is a sign of God, not merely because God created it, but because God, somehow actually is IN it." How to Save the Catholic Church pg 40 "The catholic religious imagination says that God lurks in every place." -Ibid. pg. 43
Just like the Baal worshippers of old, the Catholic church (whose teachings were adopted from the ancient mystery religion of Babylon, by the way) sees God in all of nature. "..in the sticks and stones, the sky and the stars, the caves, the dances, in conception, birth, growth, and death... God is still there- not totally encompassed by these material realities but nonetheless totally present in and among them." How to save the Catholic Church pg 48
Ignatius Loyola, founder of the Jesuit order, believed that one could see God in all things, and spent much of his time trying to do just that. You see, the Catholic church believes that because God supposedly is "in" everything... that this means that everything is something to "celebrate". In fact, Andrew Greeley, when explaining what a true catholic who understands his religion would say if you ask him what his religion means:
"...it means that God loves us and celebrates our life with us and comes to be with us and our families as we celebrate the passage of life and the fact of His love." Ibid. pg 80,81
Jesuit Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (who's ideas were said by Malachi Martin to be what was behind the idea of Vatican II) believed in the evolution of humankind towards the "Ultra Human"... He taught that all things were progressing toward perfect unity, until there was "The Omega Cosmic (pantheistic) Christ" which meant that all of mankind together was "God".
Ellen White warned of this:
Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, page 364, "Rapidly are men ranging themselves under the banner they have chosen, restlessly waiting and watching the movements of their leaders. There are those who are watching and waiting and working for our Lord's appearing; while the other party are rapidly falling into line under the generalship of the first great apostate. They look for a god in humanity, and Satan personifies the one they seek. Multitudes will be so deluded through their rejection of truth that they will accept the counterfeit. Humanity is hailed as God."
A few more quotes and I think you will get the picture:
"The Catholic theologian Richard Mc Brien says, 'The Catholic vision sees God in and through all things: other people, communities, movements, events, places, objects, the world at large, the whole cosmos.... all these are potential carriers of the Divine Presence.." How to save the catholic church pg 41
From the Trappist Monk, Thomas Merton:
"Celebration is not noise. It is not just a spinning head. it is not just individual kicks. It is the creation of a common identity, a common consciousness. Celebration is everybody making joy..."
The Celebration Movement has to do really with creating a common identity, where everyone in all churches are doing the same thing, together. EG White identified pantheism with Theosophy, which is known as the New Age Movement. Jesuit Teilhard de Chardin was known as "Father of the modern New Age Movement".
In the same year the World Council of Church's Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry Document was agreed to by our SDA leadership... The entire SDA 1982 Collegiate Quarterly was put out for all our college and university students to study. The general idea throughout this quarterly was that we, as SDAs need to realize that basically all religions are the same and we ought to rejoice in our common identity with them. (sounds just like Teilhard, doesnt it?) What what do you know? I was looking through this quarterly and lets look at pg 62...
Art Esposito, 'chairman of the Modern Language Department and director of the English Language Institute at Atlantic Union College' [b]tells us how to achieve our 'unique center of exaltation' -through the creative forces within us. (just so you know, he just told us we need to find the "God within ourselves). And then he goes on to explain that neither you nor I can really
know much about God -until we associate with those around us... so lets read now from -pg 62
of this Collegiate quarterly at what Art Esposito has to say:
"Obviously, however, this knowledge can only be shared if possessed. And just here lies a problem: There are as many different views of God as there are individual human beings. [b] As the French theologian philosopher PIERRE TEILHARD DE CHARDIN[b] puts it in his book The Divine Milieu: 'We must never lose sight of it: just as in the experimental zones of the world, men, wrapped up as they are in the universe, each represent in relation to that universe an
independent center of perspective and activity (so that there are as many partial universes as
there are individuals), just so in the area of heavenly realities, [b]so filled we are with the same creative and redemptive force that each constitutes a unique center of exaltation (so that there are as many partial conceptions of God as there are Christian souls.' An individual's conception of God is relative to his or her position in the universe. One's God is never the ultimate, but always part and incomplete.
However, it is possible to enter into communion with a "more complete God' by interrelating with others. But of course our total knowledge of God is limited by the variety of people with whom we interrelate."
Just so you know in case you didnt realize- we were just told by Esposito that we need to learn
about God from Jesuit Teilhard de Chardin... and that we cannot have a true picture of God will we realize we are all parts of God and that if we ecumenize with other churches, we will then realize what the complete Omega God is.
Our SDA Ministry Magazine, the official magazine for our SDA ministers had on its cover... a picture of the second coming of Christ called "The Return of the Cosmic King" ... (that term means the New Age Cosmic Christ)
Matthew Fox, former Dominican Priest heartily endorses Teilhard's Cosmic Christ". He even has his own witch on his staff, Miriam Starhawk who is the most well-known Wiccan Witchcraft propagandist...
"At a recent summer workshop on creation spirituality in North Carolina there were not only Roman Catholics and Quakers, Anglicans and Methodists, but Southern Baptists [b]and Seventh-Day Adventists." -Matthew Fox, The Coming of the Cosmic Christ pg 239
By the way, Wiccan Witches over and over use the word "celebration" in their literature... they
say every event in life is a celebration too. EG White in Great Controvery said spiritualism IS
witchcraft and has "invaded churches". (GC pg 556)
Remember- "Roman Catholicism will join hands with Spiritualism and Protestantism".
I hope you are getting the picture of what the Celebration Movement is all about? The celebration music and movement is to get us all doing the same things together as the other
churches are.. remember EG White said "when they all unite in common points of doctrine"...
Claudia
=======
Reformatted for easier reading. - Daryl
[ November 26, 2005, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: debbie
Re: Clapping in church - 11/26/05 08:31 AM
Claudia, I know what you are saying is correct. I also have studied some of the same stuff as you have posted. Even some in the Protestant world who are alarmed at the celebration stuff going on in the "emergent" SDA Prot. churches see the mysticism and spiritualism along with new age witchcraft that have come into the churches and they are protesting! God has His people everywhere.
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 11/27/05 02:33 PM
So does the "Traditional" SDA church have "THE" proper worship format??
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 11/28/05 07:43 AM
I don't think there is any one proper worship service as long as it's reverent and draws the congregation to the Creator. Is clapping reverent and does it draw people to the Creator or is it directed at the performer on the stage? Is this not the essence of weather or not clapping is a good or bad thing in the sanctuary?
Redfog
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 11/28/05 03:31 AM
any action that is done to show approval or heartfelt appreciation is aimed towards Heaven. How is it that an Amen is OK, but a Clapping is not??? God must look upon us and be amazed that we are even in any form of oneness... The scripture explains the cultural essance of weddings, worship, living... and "we" try to "North Americanize whom God is! This concept of clapping when and only when it is done towards heaven is by no means wrong nor irreverent. The sad thing is that our Anglo North American society sees silence as respect! Silence can be respectful, ignorant or just plain not understanding. Is it wrong to clap when a 60th wedding Anniversary has been announced from the pulpit with regards to 2 church family members whom are present at the church? This clapping is it to "puff" up the couple or is it to acknowledge the life of dedication that the couple has been able to live together by His power? When the praise is givenb to Him, I would much rather PRAISE him with every strength and fiber of whom I am rather than to sit silent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Will
Re: Clapping in church - 11/28/05 04:53 AM
What did you think of the information Claudia provided and the chapter I posted by Sister White?
What I want to find out from you Dan, is do you think that exalting a person is a safe thing to do, thats what Ellen White was getting at, so Iwant to know what you think about that info as well.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 11/29/05 01:54 AM
OK Will,
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!! X a MILLION!
OBVIOUSLY it is not right to PRAISE a person and BOAST him or her, just to lift up a person. What EGW has written and the scripture states is OBVIOUSLY true!! This all talks against boasting a person to just boast a person. That is to praise a person, not praising God. When we as men praise in church, we are to Praise God. If an Oracle of God has conveyed a point or action to God, and we as the Church are in agreement, we either say Amen or clap or state our unity in spirit and in truth.
-WHAT is LOVE???? It is not Proud, Puffed up etc... When we praise it is all to be to Him.
-
It is amazing the determination with which some would stifle the praise of clapping, just because the stoical New England Methodist roots our SDA church. (other threads talk against the conformity to various religions yet we have and still do the same!!! ) James White, was known for his enthusiastic leading of hymn singing during which he would clap out the rhythm when there was no instrumental accompaniment. AND he would walk down the aisle keeping rythm to songs on his Bible!
I know it has already been pointed out in this long and tedious topic, but it is
worth repeating a reminder of Psalms 47:1 which says, "Clap your hands, O ye
people..." This whole Psalm is about loud praise to God!
WHO do WE think we are that WE can through our CULTURAL understandings reject expressions of PRAISE!!! Especially when they are done with hearts lifted to GOD! (This is not saying that we are to lift people and stop there, we are to carry each others burdens and to celebrate the gift that God himself has given to US His people!!! That is supposedly BROTHERLY LOVE!
-STOP THE Canabalism !
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 11/29/05 03:04 AM
I think maybe there are two different perspectives here. If the person in the pew makes the initiative and if the speaker makes the initiative.
If the person in the pew starts clapping it is easily seen as approval of what was just performed or said while saying an "amen" in church circles means approval. However, if initiated by the speaker it is very different. If the speaker says "Give God a hand", it is obvious that he is not the recieving end of the clapping. However, when he says "amen?" it is seen as something like "are you still with me?" or "you agree with what I said, right?".
So if the congregation initates a clapping or the speaker initiates an "amen", it is the speaker that is elevated, while if the congregation initiates an "amen" or the speaker initiates a clapping to God, it is God who is elevated.
((disclaimer)this is ofcourse only a generalisation and does not apply to 100% of the cases even if it is my belief that it applies to the majority of cases.)
/Thomas
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 11/29/05 03:47 AM
Speaking of celebration churches and some of the more extreme so called Christian rock music what does the following quotes from Mrs. White sound like?
The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, [THESE COMMENTS WERE MADE IN CONNECTION WITH THE "HOLY FLESH" MOVEMENT AT THE INDIANA CAMP MEETING OF 1890. FOR FURTHER DETAILS, SEE SELECTED MESSAGES, BOOK 2, PP. 31-39.] the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. . . . {LDE 159.1}
A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and perverts that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise to have a carnival, and this is termed the Holy Spirit's working. . . . Those things which have been in the past will be in the future. Satan will make music a snare by the way in which it is conducted.--2SM 36, 38 (1900). {LDE 159.2}
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Clapping in church - 11/29/05 10:06 AM
In the way they are usually used? A handy little quote to silence all talk on topics ranging from what instruments to play during church service to whom to associate with to where to gather. Quite handy to stay in status que in other words..
/Thomas
Debbie,
I agree with you. And the more I think about it, the more I really believe that the Three Angel's Messages are a message calling people out of this entire thing. Out of Babylon and all that goes with it.
I read a statement one time that I cant locate now by Ellen White where she said something about "all the various organizations that apply to Babylon" ... I dont remember if the word "organizations" was used or something else similar. It isnt just the Catholic Church, it is alot of things, everything connected with this catholic/pagan/spiritualism movement.
And I am beginning to see that its really like two big camps... those who keep the commandments and those who dont. And the entire catholic/spiritualsm movement is leading people not to keep the law of God and the Three Angel's Movement is calling people out of that whole thing altogether.
And alot of Protestants who are not Seventh Day Adventists realize lots of things but they just havent heard the real message yet.
Its a whole lot more than just the Sabbath, our message is... I dont know how to explain it but its calling people to worship the true God, the Creator... leading to the keeping of all the commandments.
These other Protestants know something is wrong but they just dont quite know what it is.
well now I forgot the point I was originally trying to make
Claudia
Posted By: Doug Meister
Re: Clapping in church - 12/04/05 04:01 AM
I dont know what was said before because I got to the last page and thought I'd put in my 2¢ worth.
I hold to the idea that its somewhat irreverant to clap in church. Yet many churches do this. Maybe its easier for us people to express ourselves by applause than by a hearty A-men. I know it is for me. So if no applause - I usually dont make any sound.
--Ðøug 
2005.12.3.17.00.54 PT
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Clapping in church - 12/04/05 04:32 PM
"I usually don't make any sound"
Hey now there is a radical idea---"Be still, and know that I am God"
Redfog
Posted By: D R
Re: Clapping in church - 01/24/06 08:02 AM
Is there a scriptural issue about making sounds in church??? clapping, saying amen, verbal acknowledgements of agreement or even disagreement???